The internal conflict he must have had between “yes! They cured leprosy” and “uh oh” was probably isolated only to him lol thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
I love the initial trilogy. My interpretation of the series is that Thomas Covenant is a terribly flawed person. He is damaged, selfish and hateful because he feels sorry for himself. The trilogy is about self-healing. He is on a journey to heal himself internally. This is shown through the world's ability to heal him externally. He is very resistant to believing that he can be redeemed. He even seems to rebel against this idea and does terrible things to prove that he is irredeemable. It is self-hate. In the beginning of the series, it is possible to believe that the world is not real and that this is just him trying to believe in himself while in a coma....
OH and the ring is his wedding ring. It is a symbol of hope. It proves that even though he is not loved at the moment that he is capable of love and being loved.
This was beautifully articulated! This perspective is what makes the chronicles a beautiful story. I can’t wait to continue! I’ve been wondering about the second and third chronicles. The library ladder said the second was great but the third was garbage. Thanks for commenting and subscribing!
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Maybe I'll read it, too. I had an issue with his excessive use of personification. It seemed affected. I believe he is showing that the world is alive, but it irritated me at the time.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Since you seem interested in unusual reads. Try Jack Vance's Lyonesse Series. I love it because it is so unpredictable. It is set in the time of King Arthur. In fact, Lyonesse is where the Holy Grail is found. The story, however, has nothing to do with Arthur. It is one of my favorite fantasy novels.
@@miketaylor3189 it’s on my TBR, but it wasn’t high on it. It was in the “On my radar” catagory. But subscribers recommendations move books up my list, so I’ll look into it. I usually drop a fantasy TBR tier list in January, and this will make it on the list!
OMG My story. I'm old af. I read--tried to read--that book on release. I could not get past the beginning where the protagonist SAs the young woman (a teenager if I remember) who had helped him with the justification that it was "all just a dream." Back in the early 80s, people defended him. It wasn't actually SA. Come on! He has leprosy. Women hate him and have treated him badly. He thought he was dreaming! It was okay!" I said, "The fact that he dreams that he does this and enjoys it makes him someone I don't want to know further." I think had this book come out in the 2020s, it would not have been so successful. I know Donaldson had a lot of great ideas (some also derivative). But I did not want to read that book after. And no one--no one!--understood why that bothered me.
Just re-read this series a couple of months ago for the first time in decades. I'd forgotten how much I didn't (and still don't) like the main character. Thomas Covenant as a character is bitter, cynical and self absorbed to a major fault. I think we tend to throw a word like evil around sometimes without really defining what we're talking about, and what I can say is good about the way he's written is that he forces us to analyze his character flaws at a detailed level that is often lost in generic "bad guys".
I agree. Covenant is a well written character that I hate (at least after the first book) but he makes you think and see the world differently than before reading the book. It’s amazing and I hope I have as good of a time with the rest of them. Thanks for commenting and subscribing :)
I was 21 when I first attempted to read Lord Fouls Bane. This series was still.on fire in 1982. When I got to the assault scene, I stopped reading. I couldn't continue. I didn't understand how this guy could be the hero. It took ke almost 40 years to finally read this book and finish the initial trilogy. Trauma and consequences is a theme throughout the book. Tragedy of the highest sort. Characters making sacrifices for Covenant, who appreciates nothing, Donaldson prose is absolutely amazing. The painful beauty of the Land is showcased. I also saw another perspective on the assault later in the book. I gave my set of the trilogy to somwonw who had never heard of the series. She was amazed.
Thank you so much for sharing this! I love hearing about subscribers experiences with the books I read and love. The comments on this video have me dying to continue the series ASAP! I want to believe the story continues to be as good as the first book. Thank you for taking the time to comment and subscribe! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Excellent review. As much as I love the 1st and 2nd Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, my favorite is The Gap Cycle - Donaldson's 5-part space opera. Again, it features assault against a female in the first book (which is the weakest of the 5), but books 2-5 are so good. A genuinely terrifying alien race - it's been so long since I read it, but grimdark in space could be an apt description. I purposely chose my wedding ring to be white gold.
@@OldRod99 Starting things on a low note is a Donaldson trope. I think that the amnion are a negative version of the overmind in Childhood's End. Their achilles heel was so cool. They could not grasp lying. Some of the best character arcs Donaldson ever wrote.
I have consistently been told by both people who love covenant, and hate him, that the gap cycle is by far his best work, and one of the greatest space operas of all time. I’m excited to get started with that series next year, and if the rest of the comments in this thread are to be believed, I am sure I will love it! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
18:25 I read a novella the other night by an author who clearly was trying to make the reader like their evil main character. The other characters, who were all also jerks, kept telling MC 'dang girl, you're dark.' What was annoying was that I think the author thought she was truly 'morally gray.' Sorry, you're not morally gray when you murder many small animals, a human, and then a group of fae as sacrifices, enabling you to have dark powers granted to you by a demon-- only because people treat you like an outcast for a crime you didn't commit. Having a conscience about murdering doesn't make it less evil. This is in contrast with one of my favorite books that I read in college: Perfume. The outcast MC has 0 redeeming qualities, but the joke of the book IS that he is absolutely awful and isn't trying to be anything but that.
I am consistently surprised at the lack of moral clarity we have today. It’s understandable, and I make mistakes too, but I think it’s very telling that we struggle so much to see evil as evil without trying to make an excuse. I think fantasy books are tool people can use to help with this if they think about the stories they read enough. Great conversation! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
I read Lord Fouls Bane in 1985, and it became an instant gem for me, but the librarian at the library where I borrowed it hated it and discouraged me from reading it, so it seems that it really was controversial, even if I didn't know it at the time.
I’m sorry to hear that! How old were you? Maybe that played into it? Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
I struggled with this in 8th grade - a friend loaned it to me. Neither of us could finish it. Then I tried again in 9th grade, got far enough to meet Saltheart Foamfollower, and that was all I needed. I loved the original trilogy and the 2nd Chronicles. I was thoroughly disappointed by the third, 4-book series. Donaldson was just not able to get his old self back after all those years, sadly. Shame... it had promise, the first 2 books were decent, and then books 3 and 4 were just awful. I only read book 4 (which is book 10 of the whole thing) because of the sunk-cost fallacy. But the first 2 series are beautifully written, and a lot of the characters are great.. just not Covenant. And even he eventually (VERY eventually) redeems himself.
There is no way I could’ve read this in 8th grade lol I would’ve hated it. I hear that the 3rd chronicle just ret cons the entire story and was horrible. I am excited to continue the series and read the story of redemption! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
An interesting thing about this book, is that even though it is the first of a trilogy, it can be read as a stand alone book and still be enjoyable. But obviously reading Illearth War, and Power that Preserves compete the story, and character arc of Covenant.
Great point! Yes, I plan on delving into the rest of the books in this upcoming year. Thanks for the comment and for subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
I think a lot of people are put off from this series because of the crime the main character commits early in the first book, but there is so much more to this series than just that. The Giants are amazing, especially in the 2nd Chronicles, where we get to see more of them and their history. So many great characters: Lord Mhoram, Elena, Bannor. I've read all 10 books in the series, multiple times, and while the Last Chronicles are my least favorite, even they have some good moments. The Wounded Land and The One Tree are just amazing.
Only you can't get away from that "crime." Now, if you've read the Illearth War and The Power the Preserves (where that "crime" almost becomes a porn genre) we are aware that the "crime" had a lot of repercussions. But the crime in and of itself is not something you can just put aside because "the rest of the books were epic." It's like reading a Terry Goodkind, who seems to have all of his women characters be victims of that crime (and I know it's not every single one, but it sure feels that way) I think the crime could have been handle in 1000 different ways, but considering the character in question was written as being 16 if not a bit younger, it would still have been gross. But it wouldn't have been violent and something theput so many readers off the book. Sure, it was super popular back when it was first published, but so was Lolita and so many people take the gross part of that story and make it a love story it's kid of sick.
@@wokeaf1242 I totally get that. It was horrible, and yes, it definitely gets worse later with Thomas and Elena and with the effects it had on Lena's parents. I wish this wasn't part of the story, but it's so deeply integrated into the story that it can't be removed. And that's a shame because there's a lot to like about these books beyond that aspect.
I haven’t read any further than the first book yet, so I cannot speak of it beyond that. If it does turn into basically p*rn, then that is terrible. But I will say this. The scene Donaldson wrote is terrible, and I don’t blame people for not wanting to read this series because of it. But it is also very reassuring that everyone has such a repulsive, visceral, reaction to it. It gives me hope for humanity, and for those of us that like this book, it’s not that scene that we like. In fact, we hate that scene. We hate covenant. What we enjoy is what the book forces us to face by making the hero of this world such a deplorable character. Of a beautiful world relying on such a flawed person, and how disgusting it makes us feel. This has been one of my favorite comment threads!! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY The series doesn't turn into p*rn later :) There's some character interaction in part of the 2nd book that gets skeevy, but that's about it. If you liked book 1 overall, you should at least read the next 2. They are a self-contained story arc. Books 4-6 are another arc, and IMO are better than 1-3. Books 7-10 are OK, but certainly not as good as the earlier ones
I super excited to continue in this world! So many people on this video have been saying such great things, but everything else online seems to be negative (except library ladder lol he’s the best) thanks for the comment and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Read the series when it came out. As an adolescent with raging hormones it was an irresistible brutal slog. An awful main character you desperately hope to find love and be saved.
I hope he can somehow find redemption even though I struggle with wanting such an evil man to be forgiven. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Thomas Covenant is exceptionally written as a conflicted and sympathetic/despicable figure embodying the banality of evil in the real world. He is diseased, body and mind, shunned by society, isolated, and hopeless. There's nothing admirable or heroic about him. Then it gets worse. In the Land, he seems to act out vengeance and power within his delusion. But there's no redemption arc. That's what's interesting. He seems to do nothing to compensate, there's no moral quandary, no flash of insight. The consequences are mixed, but just ... is. Lena loses her mind, and his daughter seems unfazed by her origins. Were it not for Lord Foul, the embodiment of cosmic evil, and the Ravers, Covenant would be the antagonist, and the story would revolve around how The Land attempts to defend itself against this agent of chaos, wild magic, and imbalance.
Holy cow!! That is a beautiful analysis. I haven’t finished the series yet, but this makes me want to put it on the top of my list! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! This was a great conversation and every interaction helps the channel grow.
I'm not sure I agree that he never redeems himself. He does so in the 3rd book (Power That Preserves) and also in the climax of the 2nd trilogy (White Gold Wielder). I won't specify here to avoid spoilers.
Great take! I think you are correct in your assessment. This paved the path for Grimdark to become what it is today. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
This was the book that got me into fantasy. I mostly read horror prior to this, and most of fantasy just looked too much like Tolkien to grab my interest. A coworker of mine handed me this so I gave it a chance. Covenant felt like one of Stephen King’s antagonist characters, like Henry Bowers, were given the center stage in a traditional fantastical world, and it blew me away. Yes, Covenant commits an unforgivable crime, but it is delivered in a way that is very thought out. R*pe is not a sexual crime, and this is something that is on full display in the presentation of the scene. He does this because he finds himself in a world that is trying to elevate him to a place that he has been told that he cannot aspire to because he cannot allow himself to hope for any kind of improvement from his condition. The fact that he is being given a glimmer of hope threatens his mindset, so he lashes out against that hope. What he does is indefensible, but in his mind what was being presented to him held the potential to destroy him
Wow! I love hearing stories like this. I haven’t heard of anyone’s hook into fantasy being covenant. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! This was a great conversation and you bring up several interesting points. This book was extremely thought provoking to me, and it appears it is to most people who enjoy the book.
"In a time where Fantasy didn't really exist" ??? Ursula K. Leguinn, Poul Anderson, Peter S. Beagle, Mervyn Peake, T.H. White, what did they write again?
Leguin wrote overrated tripe. Anderson is good though. Another one who tried to write outside the shadow of the Oxford Don. Moorcock would also count (although he was contemptuous of the Don, so more wrote to subvert Howard). You should mention Vance.
I'd argue that the novel is still grimdark. It's not all about morally grey as a genre marker; it's about a world where bad things happen to good people, evil can win and consume the good, and heroes die. Grimdark subverts the tropes of traditional epic fantasy.
I still need to finish the other two books in the series! Hope you enjoy the first book as much as I did. Thanks for commenting and subscribing :) every interaction helps the channel grow
Yeah, I'm quite sure that Donaldson knew when he wrote the book, that it would not have much of any chance of being made into a movie. If that was a thought at first. But imaging the Land "comming life" on the silverscreen, with all the animation tech available today. Avartar-esk? Perhaps a script, seeing the Land not focused on Covenant, but on someone seeing the events from afar?
All great ideas!! Seeing it on the big screen would be incredible! And I agree that he had no thought about it being made into a movie, mainly because before lotr and Harry Potter, fantasy didn’t really become regularly adapted. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
This series is incredible, and personally, I find Thomas Covenant to be one of the greatest anti-heroes of all time. It deserves to be recognised as one of the best fantasy series of all time.
I had a great time with book one and i hear it continues to be just as good as we continue (until the third chronicle). Thanks for watching and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
Why what a coincidence! Some people it would seem have been trying to get me to question the nature of my reality. Can't help thinking of poor old TC! Seriously though, I hope more fantasy readers make the acquaintance of this ground-breaking work. It won't be everyone's cup of tea by any means, but it successfully combined elements of a modern "psychological" approach with the classic Good vs. Evil framework - not an easy thing to pull off IMO. The first 6 books are terrific, though I kind of pretend the last 4 don't exist - no idea what happened to Donaldson there, yikes! Edit: I agree, this is not at all Grim Dark fantasy. Those calling it such are dead wrong, they don't understand what it means.
I think Donaldson definitely pulled off something hard to do and did it really well! I did hear that the last chronicles was essentially ret-conning his world to keep selling books to fans. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Oh wow!! It’s not my top 3 at this point, but for sure a far better than average read. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
I am really glad you are reviewing this book, as I feel it is grossly underappreciated, but I have an issue with your victim mindset hypothesis. Because of the leprosy he he has to undergo and operation and while recovering and learning how to manage his symptoms, his wife leavese him, taking their child with her. When he returns to the empty home he has shared he finds that his local community are shunning him. This is to do with their fear and revulsion of the disease and has nothing to do with his humanity. The town is so unwilling to interact with him socially they deliver food to the end of his drive and pay his bills, so he doesn't have to come into pay them. Because of this he becomes lonely and bitter, and this leads to anger. This is the point he makes the decision to fight back and not to allow others to control his life. Despite his well justified fear of the getting hurt and the disease reactivating, he tries to get his life back by going into town. Prior to entering, "The Land," his last memory is of a car rushing towards him and then blackness. He sees the land as a dream or hallucination, not reality, this is why he is the Unbeliever. The return of feeling and sensation to previously dead nerves further convinces him that this isn't reality, and that he is in fact in a fantasy world within his own head. He doesn't believe those around him are real, so cannot be hurt or suffer from his actions, and this allows him to commit a rape I don't think he would have even have contemplated in the real world.
I understand what you are saying, but I don’t agree with it. You can be a real victim without adopting a victim mindset, and you can have a victim mindset while also having an internal locus of control. And good people don’t do that even in their dreams. ESPECIALLY not in there dreams. That kind of assault has the victim fight that you have to ignore. It’s incomprehensible. But great conversations!!! I love these kinds of conversations. Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
@NICKREADSFANTASY I'm sorry but having been a nurse for 35 years, being diagnosed with a life limiting disease takes time to get used to. You will go through the five stages of grief, which are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and finally acceptance. If you are stigmatised and socially isolated through no fault of your own, it will make it more difficult to reach acceptance, some people never do. As for rape in dreams I am afraid you are wrong. The psychology of perpertrating rape in dreams is very likely due to lack of control in your waking life. This type of dream, along with fantises about being the victim are very common and generally are not reflected in your waking life. That is not to say that this is always the case as certain narcissist personality types will exhibit this behaviour when awake as well.
@@craigflower13 I am well aware of the stages of grief. Being a victim is not an excuse for becoming a victimizer. And if you are r*ping people in your dreams, then you should not view it as something outside of your control, but something you view as wrong and work to change. The psychology of perpetrating rape in dreams being likely due to lack of control in your waking life is not a false statement. But the solution to that is not acceptance. It’s understanding that psychological problems are based, in part, on faulty or unhelpful ways of thinking, psychological problems are based, in part, on learned patterns of unhelpful behavior, and that people suffering from psychological problems can learn better ways of coping with them, thereby relieving their symptoms and becoming more effective in their lives.
I love the giants!!! I haven’t read further than the first book, but finishing the first trilogy is definitely high on my TbR for the coming year! Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
Donaldson is fantastic. Read both trilogies as a teenager in the 90s and have reread them several times since. Also enjoyed his recent series and crime novels, if less iconic. Edit: And Mordant's Need. I should probably have another go at the Gap series although book 1 was offputting.
I’ve heard of Thomas Covenant before, just heard it mentioned, I didn’t realise it was a fantasy story like this, but I absolutely love the idea of the MC not being a good guy, I love stories like that. I just finished the light novel series Mushoku Tensei, it’s an Isekai like this, and that’s one of the complaints I constantly see from people, they don’t like the MC Rudy, because he was a POS in his past life.
Yes! Just because there are characters you don’t like doesn’t mean the book isn’t good. Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
There are many, MANY great fantasy books from the 60s-80s that are not talked about much on Booktube because Booktube is incestuous. One or two famous booktubers like one or two authors and then they all talk about them. That's why I stopped watching a lot of them.
@@JohnAndrewMacDonald well, get onboard my channel. It won’t be straight old school, there is new stuff too, but it’s focused on hidden gems from the past. Connecticut Yankee coming soon!
I’ve never heard of Modessit, but I had tried Shannara way back in the day without being able to get into it. I think that was when I had the opinion that everything had to be “original” without understanding the value that inspired works. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
You should watch my review on The Black Company. I argue that Elric wasn’t Grimdark, only a morally gray character. But I know it’s highly debated topic with people feeling really strongly about the origins lol thanks for the comment and subscribing to the channel! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Thank you, I will watch that. My opinion is that Grimdark is a more modern phenomenon, and Elric is something like proto-grimdark. I do think it is not just his character that gives it a GD feel, but the setting and the higher beings of order/chaos as well. Another note is that Moorcock wrote Elric differently across the years, and not all the stories have the same moral foundation. For instance, Elric was first written in 1961, but the Singing Citadel is definitely High Fantasy, and not GD in tone at all. Perhaps the most GD Elric gets is Stormbringer, which was published in 1965... I find it noteworthy that Moorcock wrote Elric as a reaction to Tolkein and the earlier fantasy authors like Dunsany, Eddison and William Morris, which he called "Epic Pooh" (in that it's like Winnie the Pooh).
Hey, do you take requests? There's a pair of amazing indie books that have slipped through the cracks. What would it take for you to put it at the top of your reading list and review?
I am a mood reader. I don’t read books I’m not in the mood to read. I look at requests, but I don’t make promises. Even with me being a small channel, I get an indie book sent to me a week. I’ve read a handful when the mood strikes. Post the books in the comment below and I can see if I have read them or if I am interested in them.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Dragonfly and The King of Nightspore's Crown by Raphael Ordoñez. Read the teaser and a few pages of the sample and see if it doesn't hook you. I read a few pages and knew I had to put everything aside and read the whole thing right away.
Yeah I read this in like 84. I can't decide if I was drawn in but ultimately didn't like this or Riddlaster of Hed more. Both have good writing and ability to transport you, but god they just left me disappointed somehow.
I bet there is. From the bible comes the "doubting Thomas" and it seems like an unlikely coincidence that Donaldson's "unbeliever Thomas" is unrelated.
This all went completely over my head during the initial read, lol great observation! I love having these conversations! Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
Of course people hate this book today. Victimhood is a virtue these days, while when the book was written overcoming being a victim was perceived as honorable and praiseworthy. Hate to say it, but people who hate this book are sheeple.
It’s an excellent read that I wish more people would pick up! Sometimes things become clearer when you read it in a fantasy setting and don’t have all your defenses built up. I think this book can help people deep dive into their own philosophies. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
@@NICKREADSFANTASY It was indeed an excellent read - read it when I was a kid, and still remember several key parts of the storyline. I've never heard/seen anyone review it before. Thank you! You earned the sub. 👍 Looking forward to more of your work.
Thomas is a trash character. I've read the first two trilogies repeatedly since high school (class of 88) along with my friends. I despise Thomas, but love the Land. It is full of good, noble people standing against the Dark. So, Grimlight, maybe? My visceral reaction to Covenant is due to the fact that I was raised to be a gentleman, to never raise a hand against a woman. It makes me despise him more. Just found your channel. Definitely staying around for more.
Exactly my thoughts!!! And yes, I think this is one of the few examples of Grimbright/regular Bright fantasy. Thank you so much for the praise and comment! Every subscriber and interaction helps the channel grow
Good books! I have one left in the second trilogy and boy oh boy do they beat you down before you get to the end. Theres a lot of beauty in the books despite all the ugliness.
That’s exactly how I felt about the first book! I need to read the rest of them now:) thanks for commenting and subscribing. Every interaction helps the channel grow
While the Land is beautiful and descriptive, Thomas Covenant is vile and full of loathing. I can remember the beauty of the Land after decades of reading the series, but all I can recall of Thomas was his self pity and whining. I doubt I will ever reread the series.
Fair assessment! I think I will have to finish the series before I can comment if it’s a book or series I think is worth a reread. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
To call this the most controversial fantasy book ever is the height of hyperbole. Why? He does one act at the start of the book that is barely described and is actually justified through the context of the story. That's it. Other than that, it's a pretty straight forward fantasy and I thought the trilogy was very good actually. Anyone who has read Games of Thrones but has a problem with this book, is a complete and utter hypocrite that should be ignored. How is torture, child murder, incest, way more rape than in Lord Foul's Bane, somehow OK, but this book is not? It cannot be justified or debated. This book is tame compared to what is published today with no controversy.
I agree and disagree with different parts of this comment. I don’t think it is what happens, but who is doing it. Like I said in the video, when Covenant does the bad thing, we have already seen him as a victim and hero. We were holding him to a hero’s standard, and that’s why it’s worse than the characters in game of thrones, who for all but one are morally gray. The other thing is the time this came out. It is seen as worse because it was judged when you didn’t see this stuff in books. Which is why it is so controversial. I agree that anyone who reads and enjoys modern Grimdark fantasy should ton have moral qualms about this book. Thanks for commenting and subscribing!
@@NICKREADSFANTASY I see what you did there at the end, so I subscribed. I understand your take and it is right. The act is justified within the context of the story when you realize that Covenant never actually believes he is physically in the Land throughout the whole story. He thinks it's a dream. He is a leper that suddenly has a whole and functioning body that has physical sensation again. He is in this magical land and there is a beautiful woman there and he thinks it's a dream, so he does what he does because he doesn't think it's real and would have consequences. I'm sure if he knew that he was actually in another physical place (but is he really?), he would not have assaulted the girl. He was married with a kid and wasn't a creep abuser before he got leprosy.
I read this book 40+ years ago, and hated the book and Thomas Covenant, but being the completionist I am, I had to finish the book, and the trilogy, and the second trilogy. Just learned today that there is a quadrilogy, or tetralogy, or four more books that I am NOT going to read.
I’ve heard the last chronicle is horrible anyways. Many people don’t enjoy the first two. I perssonally thought the first book was much better than average, and look forward to continuing the series (until the second chronicle lol) thanks for commenting and subscribing l! Every interaction helps the channel grow
@@NICKREADSFANTASY I do of Part 1 of the first book, which isn't really the complete book. I am still waiting on the narration for Part 2, but I can send you a copy of the ebook to part 2 and a free copy of the audiobook to part 1. As long as if you read part 1, realize it ends on a cliffhanger for a reason and that it is just part 1 of Book 1. I will email you
so, I really don't read that much western fantasy but, this is basically a dark isekai with a terrible main character? even the truck-kun trope is there for what I hear... ok, sign me up, sounds like something I'd love to try 😆
I don’t know what a truck kun trope is, but it is a portal fantasy with a terrible main character lol Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY a little late on my response but, the truck-kun thing is how the protagonist on an isekai anime/manga gets transported to the other world, a truck usually kills them and then they reincarnate on that other world, is a meme by this point 😆 I think this novel may be the origin of it?
Why all the euphemizing? An "assault' could mean he beat her up, or hit her or tripped her or even just threatened her. He didn't. He raped her. Far more horrific than a generic 'assault'. It does the book a disservice to handwave around this brutally accurate terminology.
Because TH-cam will flag my channel, decrease my reach, and possibly make it impossible to monetize the channel. I know plenty of channels use that word, but they are consistently fighting back and forth with TH-cam. I too hate using the euphemism. I agree it’s a huge disservice. Language influences thought and perceptions. And using assault vs *ape changes our how we view it. But it’s the best I could do with the limitations. I am grateful you took the time to write this though. Hopefully others will read it and understand.
I was initially very put off my the phrase "victim mindset"-in my experience, most of the people who use that phrase are profoundly bad people. But I really liked your moral clarity that Covenant is not morally grey, he's evil. And, specifically, he's "real-world" evil. That sounds like something that would be interesting, if a little unpleasant, to read.
Very interesting. Thomas Covenant is "real world evil." Evil means different things to different people. What do YOU mean by "evil"? Covenant is evil, Voldemort is evil. But they are evil in different ways? How is Covenant's evil different from Voldemort's? It is confusing.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY I'm just asking you to define your terms. What do you mean by evil? I do not think that covenant is evil. We can't have a useful discussion unless we are willing to explain our thinking.
@@delhatton I think people who r*pe women are evil. I would love to hear your defense of why Thomas Covenant is not evil. And I think Covenant is a scarier evil than Voldemort because people like Thomas Covenant exist in the real world, and both women and men fall victim to people like covenant everyday. If we do not protect ourselves against people like him, we become their victims. Voldemort on the other hand is more of a characature or homunculus of evil. We don’t walk the streets at night in fear of being assaulted by Voldemort. The definition of evil is “profoundly immoral and wicked”.
But it does not define Covenant. Covenant does not allow it to define who he really is. Most important, it does not make him irredeemable. The series is a redemption arc. And to be a real arc, there must to be a very bad beginning. Something that requires redemption. As you become familiar with Donaldson's fantasy works, you realize that Donaldson is the master of the redemption arc. He repeatedly pulls a character out of the trash and rebuilds them. Which means he is also the master of hope.
@@delhatton I will have to continue the series to see how it plays out. The first book has me concluding “Thomas Covenant is Evil”. There is little to no remorse, and what remorse there is, is selfish remorse. This book challenges my beliefs on forgiveness and redemption, as stated in the video. When looked through the lens of a Christian perspective, forgiveness is for anyone who seeks it. But as a human, I don’t want to forgive. And at the end of book 1, he does nothing to redeem himself. This is a great conversation btw lol
I hate these books, particularly horribly overwritten style, and the fact no one, not eve God, has a single redeeming feature. Its popularity on publication (after being rejected by most of the prestigious S&SF publishers and heavily edited because the manuscript was so foul) was mainly because of hype and the lack of similar-to-LotR novels available. Of course, one of the reasons it really does not hold up any longer is because, hey, we can cure leprosy. It is a very depressing set of books and not worth the effort.
We see differently on this book. And just because leprosy can be cured doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold up any more. As far as being rejected multiple times, most of my favorite authors go through this cycle and I believe makes them better writers for it. Frank Herbert’s Dune was rejected by almost every mainstream publisher and he eventually had it published by a publisher that had only done automotive repair. Sanderson was rejected like 50 times. Rowling got rejected like a dozen times. But we can disagree while still having a discussion :) Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
The funny thing is that leprosy became curable 5 years after the book was published.
The internal conflict he must have had between “yes! They cured leprosy” and “uh oh” was probably isolated only to him lol thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
I love the initial trilogy. My interpretation of the series is that Thomas Covenant is a terribly flawed person. He is damaged, selfish and hateful because he feels sorry for himself. The trilogy is about self-healing. He is on a journey to heal himself internally. This is shown through the world's ability to heal him externally. He is very resistant to believing that he can be redeemed. He even seems to rebel against this idea and does terrible things to prove that he is irredeemable. It is self-hate. In the beginning of the series, it is possible to believe that the world is not real and that this is just him trying to believe in himself while in a coma....
OH and the ring is his wedding ring. It is a symbol of hope. It proves that even though he is not loved at the moment that he is capable of love and being loved.
This was beautifully articulated! This perspective is what makes the chronicles a beautiful story. I can’t wait to continue!
I’ve been wondering about the second and third chronicles. The library ladder said the second was great but the third was garbage.
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@@NICKREADSFANTASY Maybe I'll read it, too. I had an issue with his excessive use of personification. It seemed affected. I believe he is showing that the world is alive, but it irritated me at the time.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Since you seem interested in unusual reads. Try Jack Vance's Lyonesse Series. I love it because it is so unpredictable. It is set in the time of King Arthur. In fact, Lyonesse is where the Holy Grail is found. The story, however, has nothing to do with Arthur. It is one of my favorite fantasy novels.
@@miketaylor3189 it’s on my TBR, but it wasn’t high on it. It was in the “On my radar” catagory. But subscribers recommendations move books up my list, so I’ll look into it. I usually drop a fantasy TBR tier list in January, and this will make it on the list!
OMG My story. I'm old af. I read--tried to read--that book on release. I could not get past the beginning where the protagonist SAs the young woman (a teenager if I remember) who had helped him with the justification that it was "all just a dream." Back in the early 80s, people defended him. It wasn't actually SA. Come on! He has leprosy. Women hate him and have treated him badly. He thought he was dreaming! It was okay!" I said, "The fact that he dreams that he does this and enjoys it makes him someone I don't want to know further." I think had this book come out in the 2020s, it would not have been so successful. I know Donaldson had a lot of great ideas (some also derivative). But I did not want to read that book after. And no one--no one!--understood why that bothered me.
You’re not alone! AND…. YOUR NOT CRAZY! No justification.
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Just re-read this series a couple of months ago for the first time in decades. I'd forgotten how much I didn't (and still don't) like the main character. Thomas Covenant as a character is bitter, cynical and self absorbed to a major fault. I think we tend to throw a word like evil around sometimes without really defining what we're talking about, and what I can say is good about the way he's written is that he forces us to analyze his character flaws at a detailed level that is often lost in generic "bad guys".
I agree. Covenant is a well written character that I hate (at least after the first book) but he makes you think and see the world differently than before reading the book. It’s amazing and I hope I have as good of a time with the rest of them. Thanks for commenting and subscribing :)
I was 21 when I first attempted to read Lord Fouls Bane. This series was still.on fire in 1982. When I got to the assault scene, I stopped reading. I couldn't continue. I didn't understand how this guy could be the hero. It took ke almost 40 years to finally read this book and finish the initial trilogy. Trauma and consequences is a theme throughout the book. Tragedy of the highest sort. Characters making sacrifices for Covenant, who appreciates nothing, Donaldson prose is absolutely amazing. The painful beauty of the Land is showcased. I also saw another perspective on the assault later in the book. I gave my set of the trilogy to somwonw who had never heard of the series. She was amazed.
Thank you so much for sharing this! I love hearing about subscribers experiences with the books I read and love. The comments on this video have me dying to continue the series ASAP! I want to believe the story continues to be as good as the first book. Thank you for taking the time to comment and subscribe! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Excellent review. As much as I love the 1st and 2nd Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, my favorite is The Gap Cycle - Donaldson's 5-part space opera. Again, it features assault against a female in the first book (which is the weakest of the 5), but books 2-5 are so good. A genuinely terrifying alien race - it's been so long since I read it, but grimdark in space could be an apt description. I purposely chose my wedding ring to be white gold.
The Gap Cycle is my favorite Donaldson. Best space opera ever. Scariest aliens ever.
I agree. The Gap Cycle is just flat out amazing (past the first book). The Amnion are truly scary.
@@OldRod99 Starting things on a low note is a Donaldson trope. I think that the amnion are a negative version of the overmind in Childhood's End. Their achilles heel was so cool. They could not grasp lying. Some of the best character arcs Donaldson ever wrote.
I have consistently been told by both people who love covenant, and hate him, that the gap cycle is by far his best work, and one of the greatest space operas of all time. I’m excited to get started with that series next year, and if the rest of the comments in this thread are to be believed, I am sure I will love it!
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18:25 I read a novella the other night by an author who clearly was trying to make the reader like their evil main character. The other characters, who were all also jerks, kept telling MC 'dang girl, you're dark.' What was annoying was that I think the author thought she was truly 'morally gray.' Sorry, you're not morally gray when you murder many small animals, a human, and then a group of fae as sacrifices, enabling you to have dark powers granted to you by a demon-- only because people treat you like an outcast for a crime you didn't commit. Having a conscience about murdering doesn't make it less evil.
This is in contrast with one of my favorite books that I read in college: Perfume. The outcast MC has 0 redeeming qualities, but the joke of the book IS that he is absolutely awful and isn't trying to be anything but that.
I am consistently surprised at the lack of moral clarity we have today. It’s understandable, and I make mistakes too, but I think it’s very telling that we struggle so much to see evil as evil without trying to make an excuse. I think fantasy books are tool people can use to help with this if they think about the stories they read enough.
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I read Lord Fouls Bane in 1985, and it became an instant gem for me, but the librarian at the library where I borrowed it hated it and discouraged me from reading it, so it seems that it really was controversial, even if I didn't know it at the time.
I’m sorry to hear that! How old were you? Maybe that played into it?
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@@NICKREADSFANTASY I was 15 y.o. at the time.
I struggled with this in 8th grade - a friend loaned it to me. Neither of us could finish it. Then I tried again in 9th grade, got far enough to meet Saltheart Foamfollower, and that was all I needed. I loved the original trilogy and the 2nd Chronicles. I was thoroughly disappointed by the third, 4-book series. Donaldson was just not able to get his old self back after all those years, sadly. Shame... it had promise, the first 2 books were decent, and then books 3 and 4 were just awful. I only read book 4 (which is book 10 of the whole thing) because of the sunk-cost fallacy. But the first 2 series are beautifully written, and a lot of the characters are great.. just not Covenant. And even he eventually (VERY eventually) redeems himself.
There is no way I could’ve read this in 8th grade lol I would’ve hated it. I hear that the 3rd chronicle just ret cons the entire story and was horrible. I am excited to continue the series and read the story of redemption! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
An interesting thing about this book, is that even though it is the first of a trilogy, it can be read as a stand alone book and still be enjoyable.
But obviously reading Illearth War, and Power that Preserves compete the story, and character arc of Covenant.
Great point! Yes, I plan on delving into the rest of the books in this upcoming year. Thanks for the comment and for subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
I think a lot of people are put off from this series because of the crime the main character commits early in the first book, but there is so much more to this series than just that. The Giants are amazing, especially in the 2nd Chronicles, where we get to see more of them and their history. So many great characters: Lord Mhoram, Elena, Bannor. I've read all 10 books in the series, multiple times, and while the Last Chronicles are my least favorite, even they have some good moments. The Wounded Land and The One Tree are just amazing.
Only you can't get away from that "crime." Now, if you've read the Illearth War and The Power the Preserves (where that "crime" almost becomes a porn genre) we are aware that the "crime" had a lot of repercussions. But the crime in and of itself is not something you can just put aside because "the rest of the books were epic." It's like reading a Terry Goodkind, who seems to have all of his women characters be victims of that crime (and I know it's not every single one, but it sure feels that way) I think the crime could have been handle in 1000 different ways, but considering the character in question was written as being 16 if not a bit younger, it would still have been gross. But it wouldn't have been violent and something theput so many readers off the book. Sure, it was super popular back when it was first published, but so was Lolita and so many people take the gross part of that story and make it a love story it's kid of sick.
@@wokeaf1242 I totally get that. It was horrible, and yes, it definitely gets worse later with Thomas and Elena and with the effects it had on Lena's parents. I wish this wasn't part of the story, but it's so deeply integrated into the story that it can't be removed. And that's a shame because there's a lot to like about these books beyond that aspect.
I haven’t read any further than the first book yet, so I cannot speak of it beyond that. If it does turn into basically p*rn, then that is terrible. But I will say this.
The scene Donaldson wrote is terrible, and I don’t blame people for not wanting to read this series because of it. But it is also very reassuring that everyone has such a repulsive, visceral, reaction to it. It gives me hope for humanity, and for those of us that like this book, it’s not that scene that we like. In fact, we hate that scene. We hate covenant. What we enjoy is what the book forces us to face by making the hero of this world such a deplorable character. Of a beautiful world relying on such a flawed person, and how disgusting it makes us feel.
This has been one of my favorite comment threads!! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY The series doesn't turn into p*rn later :) There's some character interaction in part of the 2nd book that gets skeevy, but that's about it. If you liked book 1 overall, you should at least read the next 2. They are a self-contained story arc. Books 4-6 are another arc, and IMO are better than 1-3. Books 7-10 are OK, but certainly not as good as the earlier ones
@@OldRod99 very helpful info!
Yep. The First and Second Chronicles are both masterpieces. His Daughter Of Regals short story collection is worth a look as well.
I super excited to continue in this world! So many people on this video have been saying such great things, but everything else online seems to be negative (except library ladder lol he’s the best) thanks for the comment and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Read the series when it came out. As an adolescent with raging hormones it was an irresistible brutal slog. An awful main character you desperately hope to find love and be saved.
I hope he can somehow find redemption even though I struggle with wanting such an evil man to be forgiven. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Thomas Covenant is exceptionally written as a conflicted and sympathetic/despicable figure embodying the banality of evil in the real world. He is diseased, body and mind, shunned by society, isolated, and hopeless. There's nothing admirable or heroic about him. Then it gets worse. In the Land, he seems to act out vengeance and power within his delusion. But there's no redemption arc. That's what's interesting. He seems to do nothing to compensate, there's no moral quandary, no flash of insight. The consequences are mixed, but just ... is. Lena loses her mind, and his daughter seems unfazed by her origins. Were it not for Lord Foul, the embodiment of cosmic evil, and the Ravers, Covenant would be the antagonist, and the story would revolve around how The Land attempts to defend itself against this agent of chaos, wild magic, and imbalance.
Holy cow!! That is a beautiful analysis. I haven’t finished the series yet, but this makes me want to put it on the top of my list! Thanks for commenting and subscribing! This was a great conversation and every interaction helps the channel grow.
I'm not sure I agree that he never redeems himself. He does so in the 3rd book (Power That Preserves) and also in the climax of the 2nd trilogy (White Gold Wielder). I won't specify here to avoid spoilers.
I read this when it was first published.
It isn't quite Grim Dark but I don't believe that Grim Dark could emerge without this series...
Great take! I think you are correct in your assessment. This paved the path for Grimdark to become what it is today. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
This was the book that got me into fantasy. I mostly read horror prior to this, and most of fantasy just looked too much like Tolkien to grab my interest. A coworker of mine handed me this so I gave it a chance. Covenant felt like one of Stephen King’s antagonist characters, like Henry Bowers, were given the center stage in a traditional fantastical world, and it blew me away. Yes, Covenant commits an unforgivable crime, but it is delivered in a way that is very thought out. R*pe is not a sexual crime, and this is something that is on full display in the presentation of the scene. He does this because he finds himself in a world that is trying to elevate him to a place that he has been told that he cannot aspire to because he cannot allow himself to hope for any kind of improvement from his condition. The fact that he is being given a glimmer of hope threatens his mindset, so he lashes out against that hope. What he does is indefensible, but in his mind what was being presented to him held the potential to destroy him
Wow! I love hearing stories like this. I haven’t heard of anyone’s hook into fantasy being covenant. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! This was a great conversation and you bring up several interesting points. This book was extremely thought provoking to me, and it appears it is to most people who enjoy the book.
"In a time where Fantasy didn't really exist" ??? Ursula K. Leguinn, Poul Anderson, Peter S. Beagle, Mervyn Peake, T.H. White, what did they write again?
Never heard of them. Can you explain?
The Gormenghast series and the Earthsea Trilogy are amazing. The latter definitely inspired Harry Potter.
Leguin wrote overrated tripe.
Anderson is good though. Another one who tried to write outside the shadow of the Oxford Don. Moorcock would also count (although he was contemptuous of the Don, so more wrote to subvert Howard).
You should mention Vance.
Still need to get to Gormenghast. It was on my top 10 most anticipated classic fantasy list
I'd argue that the novel is still grimdark. It's not all about morally grey as a genre marker; it's about a world where bad things happen to good people, evil can win and consume the good, and heroes die. Grimdark subverts the tropes of traditional epic fantasy.
I think it’s much more Grimbright than Grimdark personally.
I just bought this trilogy last week! Looking forward to reading
I still need to finish the other two books in the series! Hope you enjoy the first book as much as I did. Thanks for commenting and subscribing :) every interaction helps the channel grow
Yeah, I'm quite sure that Donaldson knew when he wrote the book, that it would not have much of any chance of being made into a movie. If that was a thought at first.
But imaging the Land "comming life" on the silverscreen, with all the animation tech available today.
Avartar-esk?
Perhaps a script, seeing the Land not focused on Covenant, but on someone seeing the events from afar?
All great ideas!! Seeing it on the big screen would be incredible! And I agree that he had no thought about it being made into a movie, mainly because before lotr and Harry Potter, fantasy didn’t really become regularly adapted.
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This series is incredible, and personally, I find Thomas Covenant to be one of the greatest anti-heroes of all time. It deserves to be recognised as one of the best fantasy series of all time.
I had a great time with book one and i hear it continues to be just as good as we continue (until the third chronicle). Thanks for watching and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
Why what a coincidence! Some people it would seem have been trying to get me to question the nature of my reality. Can't help thinking of poor old TC!
Seriously though, I hope more fantasy readers make the acquaintance of this ground-breaking work. It won't be everyone's cup of tea by any means, but it successfully combined elements of a modern "psychological" approach with the classic Good vs. Evil framework - not an easy thing to pull off IMO.
The first 6 books are terrific, though I kind of pretend the last 4 don't exist - no idea what happened to Donaldson there, yikes!
Edit: I agree, this is not at all Grim Dark fantasy. Those calling it such are dead wrong, they don't understand what it means.
I think Donaldson definitely pulled off something hard to do and did it really well! I did hear that the last chronicles was essentially ret-conning his world to keep selling books to fans. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
I'd put this in the top 3 best fantasy series...just incredibly well written and astonishing world building.
Oh wow!! It’s not my top 3 at this point, but for sure a far better than average read. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
I am really glad you are reviewing this book, as I feel it is grossly underappreciated, but I have an issue with your victim mindset hypothesis.
Because of the leprosy he he has to undergo and operation and while recovering and learning how to manage his symptoms, his wife leavese him, taking their child with her. When he returns to the empty home he has shared he finds that his local community are shunning him. This is to do with their fear and revulsion of the disease and has nothing to do with his humanity. The town is so unwilling to interact with him socially they deliver food to the end of his drive and pay his bills, so he doesn't have to come into pay them. Because of this he becomes lonely and bitter, and this leads to anger.
This is the point he makes the decision to fight back and not to allow others to control his life. Despite his well justified fear of the getting hurt and the disease reactivating, he tries to get his life back by going into town. Prior to entering, "The Land," his last memory is of a car rushing towards him and then blackness.
He sees the land as a dream or hallucination, not reality, this is why he is the Unbeliever. The return of feeling and sensation to previously dead nerves further convinces him that this isn't reality, and that he is in fact in a fantasy world within his own head. He doesn't believe those around him are real, so cannot be hurt or suffer from his actions, and this allows him to commit a rape I don't think he would have even have contemplated in the real world.
I understand what you are saying, but I don’t agree with it.
You can be a real victim without adopting a victim mindset, and you can have a victim mindset while also having an internal locus of control.
And good people don’t do that even in their dreams. ESPECIALLY not in there dreams. That kind of assault has the victim fight that you have to ignore. It’s incomprehensible.
But great conversations!!! I love these kinds of conversations. Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
@NICKREADSFANTASY I'm sorry but having been a nurse for 35 years, being diagnosed with a life limiting disease takes time to get used to. You will go through the five stages of grief, which are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and finally acceptance. If you are stigmatised and socially isolated through no fault of your own, it will make it more difficult to reach acceptance, some people never do.
As for rape in dreams I am afraid you are wrong. The psychology of perpertrating rape in dreams is very likely due to lack of control in your waking life. This type of dream, along with fantises about being the victim are very common and generally are not reflected in your waking life. That is not to say that this is always the case as certain narcissist personality types will exhibit this behaviour when awake as well.
@@craigflower13 I am well aware of the stages of grief. Being a victim is not an excuse for becoming a victimizer. And if you are r*ping people in your dreams, then you should not view it as something outside of your control, but something you view as wrong and work to change. The psychology of perpetrating rape in dreams being likely due to lack of control in your waking life is not a false statement. But the solution to that is not acceptance. It’s understanding that psychological problems are based, in part, on faulty or unhelpful ways of thinking, psychological problems are based, in part, on learned patterns of unhelpful behavior, and that people suffering from psychological problems can learn better ways of coping with them, thereby relieving their symptoms and becoming more effective in their lives.
The Giants are nearly the only redeeming quality of both trilogies.
I love the giants!!! I haven’t read further than the first book, but finishing the first trilogy is definitely high on my TbR for the coming year! Thanks for commenting and subscribing, every interaction helps the channel grow
Donaldson is fantastic. Read both trilogies as a teenager in the 90s and have reread them several times since. Also enjoyed his recent series and crime novels, if less iconic. Edit: And Mordant's Need. I should probably have another go at the Gap series although book 1 was offputting.
Several people have told me the Gap series is the best of his works.
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I’ve heard of Thomas Covenant before, just heard it mentioned, I didn’t realise it was a fantasy story like this, but I absolutely love the idea of the MC not being a good guy, I love stories like that. I just finished the light novel series Mushoku Tensei, it’s an Isekai like this, and that’s one of the complaints I constantly see from people, they don’t like the MC Rudy, because he was a POS in his past life.
Yes! Just because there are characters you don’t like doesn’t mean the book isn’t good.
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There are many, MANY great fantasy books from the 60s-80s that are not talked about much on Booktube because Booktube is incestuous. One or two famous booktubers like one or two authors and then they all talk about them. That's why I stopped watching a lot of them.
@@JohnAndrewMacDonald well, get onboard my channel. It won’t be straight old school, there is new stuff too, but it’s focused on hidden gems from the past. Connecticut Yankee coming soon!
"Many cite Thomas Covenant as the creation of grimdark." Literally nobody does this.
Thanks for watching! I hope you enjoyed the video
I'll have to see if I can get into it. Big fan of LE Modessit and Shanarra series
I’ve never heard of Modessit, but I had tried Shannara way back in the day without being able to get into it. I think that was when I had the opinion that everything had to be “original” without understanding the value that inspired works. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow.
Grimdark was invented by Michael Moorcock in the 1972 Elric of Melnibone, so even if The Chronicles were Grimdark... ;)
You should watch my review on The Black Company. I argue that Elric wasn’t Grimdark, only a morally gray character. But I know it’s highly debated topic with people feeling really strongly about the origins lol thanks for the comment and subscribing to the channel! Every interaction helps the channel grow :)
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Thank you, I will watch that. My opinion is that Grimdark is a more modern phenomenon, and Elric is something like proto-grimdark. I do think it is not just his character that gives it a GD feel, but the setting and the higher beings of order/chaos as well.
Another note is that Moorcock wrote Elric differently across the years, and not all the stories have the same moral foundation. For instance, Elric was first written in 1961, but the Singing Citadel is definitely High Fantasy, and not GD in tone at all.
Perhaps the most GD Elric gets is Stormbringer, which was published in 1965...
I find it noteworthy that Moorcock wrote Elric as a reaction to Tolkein and the earlier fantasy authors like Dunsany, Eddison and William Morris, which he called "Epic Pooh" (in that it's like Winnie the Pooh).
Hey, do you take requests? There's a pair of amazing indie books that have slipped through the cracks. What would it take for you to put it at the top of your reading list and review?
I am a mood reader. I don’t read books I’m not in the mood to read. I look at requests, but I don’t make promises. Even with me being a small channel, I get an indie book sent to me a week. I’ve read a handful when the mood strikes. Post the books in the comment below and I can see if I have read them or if I am interested in them.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY Dragonfly and The King of Nightspore's Crown by Raphael Ordoñez. Read the teaser and a few pages of the sample and see if it doesn't hook you. I read a few pages and knew I had to put everything aside and read the whole thing right away.
Yeah I read this in like 84. I can't decide if I was drawn in but ultimately didn't like this or Riddlaster of Hed more. Both have good writing and ability to transport you, but god they just left me disappointed somehow.
You’re not the only one who feels that way lol
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I wonder if there was any intention behind him naming the character after one of Jesus' deciples.
I bet there is. From the bible comes the "doubting Thomas" and it seems like an unlikely coincidence that Donaldson's "unbeliever Thomas" is unrelated.
This all went completely over my head during the initial read, lol great observation! I love having these conversations!
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Of course people hate this book today. Victimhood is a virtue these days, while when the book was written overcoming being a victim was perceived as honorable and praiseworthy.
Hate to say it, but people who hate this book are sheeple.
It’s an excellent read that I wish more people would pick up! Sometimes things become clearer when you read it in a fantasy setting and don’t have all your defenses built up. I think this book can help people deep dive into their own philosophies. Thanks for commenting and subscribing! Every interaction helps the channel grow
@@NICKREADSFANTASY It was indeed an excellent read - read it when I was a kid, and still remember several key parts of the storyline. I've never heard/seen anyone review it before. Thank you! You earned the sub. 👍
Looking forward to more of your work.
Thomas is a trash character. I've read the first two trilogies repeatedly since high school (class of 88) along with my friends. I despise Thomas, but love the Land. It is full of good, noble people standing against the Dark. So, Grimlight, maybe?
My visceral reaction to Covenant is due to the fact that I was raised to be a gentleman, to never raise a hand against a woman. It makes me despise him more.
Just found your channel. Definitely staying around for more.
Exactly my thoughts!!! And yes, I think this is one of the few examples of Grimbright/regular Bright fantasy.
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@@NICKREADSFANTASY Well, I posted this over on Bluesky. :)
@@AnthonyEmmel That means a ton!!! It’s an honor for people to share my videos. Thank you!
Good books! I have one left in the second trilogy and boy oh boy do they beat you down before you get to the end. Theres a lot of beauty in the books despite all the ugliness.
That’s exactly how I felt about the first book! I need to read the rest of them now:) thanks for commenting and subscribing. Every interaction helps the channel grow
I like the second as well. Never read the final as I have heard a LOT of negative and my tastes have changed since I read them in the 80s
TC is one of my favorites!
While the Land is beautiful and descriptive, Thomas Covenant is vile and full of loathing. I can remember the beauty of the Land after decades of reading the series, but all I can recall of Thomas was his self pity and whining. I doubt I will ever reread the series.
Fair assessment! I think I will have to finish the series before I can comment if it’s a book or series I think is worth a reread.
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To call this the most controversial fantasy book ever is the height of hyperbole. Why? He does one act at the start of the book that is barely described and is actually justified through the context of the story. That's it. Other than that, it's a pretty straight forward fantasy and I thought the trilogy was very good actually. Anyone who has read Games of Thrones but has a problem with this book, is a complete and utter hypocrite that should be ignored. How is torture, child murder, incest, way more rape than in Lord Foul's Bane, somehow OK, but this book is not? It cannot be justified or debated. This book is tame compared to what is published today with no controversy.
I agree and disagree with different parts of this comment. I don’t think it is what happens, but who is doing it. Like I said in the video, when Covenant does the bad thing, we have already seen him as a victim and hero. We were holding him to a hero’s standard, and that’s why it’s worse than the characters in game of thrones, who for all but one are morally gray.
The other thing is the time this came out. It is seen as worse because it was judged when you didn’t see this stuff in books. Which is why it is so controversial. I agree that anyone who reads and enjoys modern Grimdark fantasy should ton have moral qualms about this book.
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@@NICKREADSFANTASY I see what you did there at the end, so I subscribed. I understand your take and it is right. The act is justified within the context of the story when you realize that Covenant never actually believes he is physically in the Land throughout the whole story. He thinks it's a dream. He is a leper that suddenly has a whole and functioning body that has physical sensation again. He is in this magical land and there is a beautiful woman there and he thinks it's a dream, so he does what he does because he doesn't think it's real and would have consequences. I'm sure if he knew that he was actually in another physical place (but is he really?), he would not have assaulted the girl. He was married with a kid and wasn't a creep abuser before he got leprosy.
I read this book 40+ years ago, and hated the book and Thomas Covenant, but being the completionist I am, I had to finish the book, and the trilogy, and the second trilogy.
Just learned today that there is a quadrilogy, or tetralogy, or four more books that I am NOT going to read.
I’ve heard the last chronicle is horrible anyways. Many people don’t enjoy the first two. I perssonally thought the first book was much better than average, and look forward to continuing the series (until the second chronicle lol) thanks for commenting and subscribing l! Every interaction helps the channel grow
Read it when I was the age of Lena at the beginning of the story; you can imagine how that went. As I recall, the writing style is almost literary.
That would be horrible. I’ve heard many stories of people slamming the book shut at that moment and never opening it again.
Reviewing lesser known, less popular books, would you review my book? I could sent you copies of Book 1
Do you have an audio version?
Email me :)
@@NICKREADSFANTASY I do of Part 1 of the first book, which isn't really the complete book. I am still waiting on the narration for Part 2, but I can send you a copy of the ebook to part 2 and a free copy of the audiobook to part 1. As long as if you read part 1, realize it ends on a cliffhanger for a reason and that it is just part 1 of Book 1. I will email you
Sent! Love your review of Lord Foul's Bane btw! That book is underappreciated for real!
I’m not ignoring your email by the way, I just haven’t gotten to it yet.
so, I really don't read that much western fantasy but, this is basically a dark isekai with a terrible main character? even the truck-kun trope is there for what I hear... ok, sign me up, sounds like something I'd love to try 😆
I don’t know what a truck kun trope is, but it is a portal fantasy with a terrible main character lol
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@@NICKREADSFANTASY a little late on my response but, the truck-kun thing is how the protagonist on an isekai anime/manga gets transported to the other world, a truck usually kills them and then they reincarnate on that other world, is a meme by this point 😆 I think this novel may be the origin of it?
"Nom"
I don’t know what nom means lol
@NICKREADSFANTASY Nom is the name of a Sand Gorgon and one of the most fantastic lines in all of literature taken in context. Book 4 or 5.
Thank you!!
Why all the euphemizing? An "assault' could mean he beat her up, or hit her or tripped her or even just threatened her. He didn't. He raped her. Far more horrific than a generic 'assault'. It does the book a disservice to handwave around this brutally accurate terminology.
Because TH-cam will flag my channel, decrease my reach, and possibly make it impossible to monetize the channel. I know plenty of channels use that word, but they are consistently fighting back and forth with TH-cam. I too hate using the euphemism. I agree it’s a huge disservice. Language influences thought and perceptions. And using assault vs *ape changes our how we view it. But it’s the best I could do with the limitations. I am grateful you took the time to write this though. Hopefully others will read it and understand.
I was initially very put off my the phrase "victim mindset"-in my experience, most of the people who use that phrase are profoundly bad people. But I really liked your moral clarity that Covenant is not morally grey, he's evil. And, specifically, he's "real-world" evil. That sounds like something that would be interesting, if a little unpleasant, to read.
It was quite the journey, and I could see why people have moral confusion with this book. It takes asking questions to yourself to understand.
Very interesting.
Thomas Covenant is "real world evil."
Evil means different things to different people.
What do YOU mean by "evil"?
Covenant is evil, Voldemort is evil. But they are evil in different ways? How is Covenant's evil different from Voldemort's?
It is confusing.
We see people like covenant in the news everyday. We do not see Voldemort in the news everyday.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY I'm just asking you to define your terms. What do you mean by evil? I do not think that covenant is evil. We can't have a useful discussion unless we are willing to explain our thinking.
@@delhatton I think people who r*pe women are evil. I would love to hear your defense of why Thomas Covenant is not evil.
And I think Covenant is a scarier evil than Voldemort because people like Thomas Covenant exist in the real world, and both women and men fall victim to people like covenant everyday. If we do not protect ourselves against people like him, we become their victims. Voldemort on the other hand is more of a characature or homunculus of evil. We don’t walk the streets at night in fear of being assaulted by Voldemort.
The definition of evil is “profoundly immoral and wicked”.
@@NICKREADSFANTASY The rape is evil. Undeniably.
But it does not define Covenant.
Covenant does not allow it to define who he really is.
Most important, it does not make him irredeemable.
The series is a redemption arc. And to be a real arc, there must to be a very bad beginning. Something that requires redemption.
As you become familiar with Donaldson's fantasy works, you realize that Donaldson is the master of the redemption arc.
He repeatedly pulls a character out of the trash and rebuilds them.
Which means he is also the master of hope.
@@delhatton I will have to continue the series to see how it plays out. The first book has me concluding “Thomas Covenant is Evil”. There is little to no remorse, and what remorse there is, is selfish remorse.
This book challenges my beliefs on forgiveness and redemption, as stated in the video. When looked through the lens of a Christian perspective, forgiveness is for anyone who seeks it. But as a human, I don’t want to forgive. And at the end of book 1, he does nothing to redeem himself.
This is a great conversation btw lol
I hate these books, particularly horribly overwritten style, and the fact no one, not eve God, has a single redeeming feature. Its popularity on publication (after being rejected by most of the prestigious S&SF publishers and heavily edited because the manuscript was so foul) was mainly because of hype and the lack of similar-to-LotR novels available.
Of course, one of the reasons it really does not hold up any longer is because, hey, we can cure leprosy.
It is a very depressing set of books and not worth the effort.
We see differently on this book. And just because leprosy can be cured doesn’t mean it doesn’t hold up any more.
As far as being rejected multiple times, most of my favorite authors go through this cycle and I believe makes them better writers for it. Frank Herbert’s Dune was rejected by almost every mainstream publisher and he eventually had it published by a publisher that had only done automotive repair. Sanderson was rejected like 50 times. Rowling got rejected like a dozen times.
But we can disagree while still having a discussion :)
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