Vampire: the Masquerade - Saulot: Redeemer and Destroyer - sides of the same coin landing on edge
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- In this episode we're going to dig up some pretty cryptic lore on Saulot, placing it on the timeline, and seeing if it is even possible that this Antediluvian was the Progenitor of BOTH Salubri and Baali.
My sources for the making of this episode are:
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(^this is Clanbook Baali, but it's hidden due to adult content)
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I really love the implications of Saulot being the progenitor of Clan Salubri AND Clan Baali, because this means Golconda isn't only accessible to Goody Two-Shoes types of characters who have never done wrong, and it isn't a religious ascension, or a form of enlightenment that is brought about through the worship and blessing of an external deity, but simply a very deep awareness and knowledge of self, a balance between good and bad that is chosen freely, devoid of trauma or previous programing, and preserved constantly, through external and internal conflict, across an infinity of instances/moments, out of hard-earned wisdom and genuine choice.
This is why Saulot is a gentle teacher, not a zealous preacher :D
Enjoy, and do let me know what you think of this idea, and Saulot as a character!
![[Live] ศึกมหึมันส์มวยไทยสังเวียนเดือด เวทีมวยชั่วคราวสวนสยาม | จันทร์ 30 กันยายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pM1k6f7JXUc/mqdefault.jpg)
A Salubri turned Baali is my favourite character concept: they start the game already diablerized.
That's... 😂 You are absolutely killing me!
*finally stops laughing*
But seriously, now, that's so clever and sneaky! 😈
That last segment about vampire redemption is especially interesting considering how that's exactly what the first scenario of Gehenna is all about.
To say I didn't enjoy the scenarios presented in the Gehenna book would be a lie, since I've even ran something akin to them (or based on them), but what I've grown less fond of, over the years, is this idea that Golconda (or redemption) is something bestowed externally, by a powerful deity assuming the role of judge, that the characters must appease through their good deeds. I would much rather see high humanity characters described not as saintly or morally good, but as extremely aware of themselves, their beasts, and the fact that in everything they do, there is a choice. They are beings who have managed to fully step outside of the fight-of-flight instincts and impulses we often see vampires acting out of, and even when they fight back, or let their beasts out, they do so in a willing manner. And certainly, when the fear and impulses for desperate survival die down, aggression is also diminished, the character is calm, collected, even caring and kind, precisely because they are not afraid to show those aspects of themselves.
And it is precisely because of this awareness and overcoming of trauma, they can behave in a manner similar to the one before their embrace, doing so not out of ignorance, but out of choice (mentioning this since some possibilities for the effects of Golconda include returning to a mortal state, free from the curse of Caine)
Buuuut, the ruling deity coming back to judge everyone is also very appropriate considering the origin story of vampires... 🤔So many options and nuances to consider 🥰
I have always wondered what Saulot's opinion on the Eldest was and what kind of relationship the antediluvian's had. Both antes are connected due the meddling of Tremere, both antes have a connection to Kupala, and both of them have a goal of transcendence, though thier philosophy of how to reach that higher state is different. It just always seemed that Saulot and the Eldest are connected in someway but unlike Ventrue and Lasombra, or Ennoia and Zapathasura we don't really get any legends or stories of them interacting.
I might have some info on that interaction between Salubri and Tzimisce. It's not much, but let me see if I can write something on it 😁
@@theoldcountry Interesting, looking forward to hear a little more. Cause I have always had the thought that Salout and the Eldest must have had at least ONE conversation where those two nerds had a long philosophical debate on the path of Golconda vs the path of Metamorphosis at some point lol.
Redeemer and Destroyer!! i remember it from LOK!!!!!!!
Vae victis! 🦇
Legacy of Kain is probably the best series I've ever played 🥰
Blood Omen 1 is on GoG nowadays. I've waited 15 years to find a version that works, and finally play this game, and now... I can 😈
How can he be forgiven when his sins still haunt the night? They commit greater atrocities than the night before, while singing your name, deeds done in your honor. Forgiving oneself can soothe the heart but it does nothing for the screaming hearts of your victims who are legion.
Well, that is the question, isn't it? His sins haunt the night, but so do his good deeds. All the people he's healed, all those times he advised his "family" to aspire to wisdom, all the kindness shown towards the children of Seth. Both the Salubri and the Baali ended up as Bloodlines, not Clans. The Salubri were almost wiped out and the Baali were almost wiped out... to the point that their deeds are almost completely eclipsed by the choices of powerful mortals or other Clans.
Can his momentary lapse of reason be forgiven? Can we forgive the crimes of passion, of rage and despair, of a young man who, at that time, had just broken free from a cult? Consider that he's lived more than 100 mortal lifetimes, if we agree that the mortals of Enoch lived to 100 (which was probably not the case). The Baali affair was undoubtedly EXTREMELY damaging to everyone and everything in the World of Darkness, but it was a very brief moment in... 10.000 years of existence, and something Saulot has regretted ever since the "siege" of the Second City.
This is precisely why I asked this question in the episode. Mortal legal systems are mainly punitive systems. Saulot is undoubtedly guilty, but how and for how long can we punish a 10000 years old who has been regretting their deeds for no less than 9000 years? (The First Baali War is estimated to around 7300, about 700 years after Saulot's embrace) Can the progenitor of the Baali truly change, and repent? Will we hate and despise this gentle healer and Golcondite for one single mistake? By which measure can we even begin to judge such an entity, whose experience will forever be beyond out comprehension?
And to be fair, he made this mistake for everyone to learn from it. Because of his lapse, even though we do not experience such horrible deeds first hand, we know what the consequences are, we can observe the extremes of both good and bad, so that we avoid going there ourselves. A lot of our successes and improvements, social progress, etc. are based on the mistakes, the frightening, cruel mistakes of our "parents", who, more often than not, were conditioned by their own "Caines", indoctrinated and part of a system that thrives on dominance, oppression and conformity.
But make no mistake, I have no answer to my own question, just an endless list of things to consider... and more questions 😅
EDIT: Typos
Its interesting listening to this, it has the same cadence as a Homily in a Catholic Mass. Like the parts where you quote the Book of Nod feels exactly when the bible is quote. Not mention the message of Redemption between Saulot and usual gospel messages.
Oh, wow, you don't know how amazed and happy I am that you picked up on that 🥰 I thought it only fitting that I read those passages in a very... ecclesiastical tone/intonation, especially given the subject of the episode, and the image of Saulot as a... vampire saint. Well, to be fair, a lot of the times when I quote the lore books I briefly go into "Sabbat Priest" mode, a little bit of roleplay on my part 😁
I often wonder what tone of voice a Sabbat Pack-Priest giving a Sermon of Caine would have, how much fervor or softness would go into that, how they'd alternate between intense and gentle.
Anyhow, I'm amazed you picked up on that. Your comment made my day 🤯
@@theoldcountry :) thanks for the great performance! I personally has not played in enough Sabbat games to be able to tell so this is just from my personal IRL experience with the faith.
@@overscoresam948 Well, to say this is solely a performance and roleplay would be untrue. It ultimately comes from lived experience. I have always enjoyed reading and learning, my favorite disciplines being theology, sociology and philosophy, not necessarily in that order, but definitely my top 3. So I guess I'm influenced by that in a multitude of ways 😁
What amazes me every single time is how people pick up on these little things that aren't immediately or directly related to what is being said, but HOW it is being said.
I love a good redemption story. It kinda seems from your description of events that was just being rebellious to spite Caine the hurt he felt. It's good that he realized that he doesn't actually want to be a demonic overlord. I see his hesitation to intervene in the autonomy of others as a measure to try to keep his students from ending up like himself.
Ah, that's a very good observation! Saulot himself had been a victim of this toxic cycle of indoctrination that pretty much all Childer of Caine had been subjected to. If he'd just told his students: you will pursue enlightenment because that is my will and your duty, he'd have behaved just like Caine (which is what he probably did, initially)
In order to break that cycle, he distances himself from his community (goes on his journeys), and the moment he's out of that toxic environment, he can see with new eyes. To tell others how to behave and what to do is the way of all Vampire communities, with strict laws and pyramid structures and rulers which deny their lessers a genuine, free choice. It is what perpetuates an endless cycle of abuse and power-worship.
The only way Saulot can truly be unlike his bretheren, is if he allows everyone to do as they will. He puts the knowledge out there - Golconda - and hopes others will find the Path. To actively preach and manipulate others would be to follow the example of others, the ways of all Cainites. But his example is divine, it is kind, ever-patient, unlike anything the societies of the undead can accept in their midst. It's no wonder everyone hunts down Golcondites... because they threaten the status quo profoundly 🤔
WOW I'm dissappointed in Saulot if this was true. And this is coming from a Tremere main!
Wait who DIDN'T Caine curse from the original 13?
@@rudolphantler6309 Wait, why disappointed if it IS true?
And yes, it is rumored that Caine didn't curse all of his grandchilder, only those who took part in the slaying of the Second Generation. Saulot, rumor has it, was never cursed by Caine. Although... you can never be sure about such things 🤔
@@theoldcountry Ah I see.
Disappointed well partially. A clan is viewed partially how their progenitor acts. I always thought because of Saulot the Salubri are the closest the clans can get to a somewhat "good" clan who are as minimally evil as possible all things considered.
Sure Saulot seemed to have a more honest and healthy, authentic character arc than I expected, but previously I could look at him as someone who may not have done anything wrong and all negative stories are just Tremere propaganda.
I guess this was a loss of innocence type of journey for me. :D
@@rudolphantler6309 It was the same for me 😭 I share your pain 🫂
How good is that? What an interesting and diligent analysis.
Truly, you never disappoint ❤️
The complex around Salubri/Baali/Tremere/Tzimisce is my favorite part of the lore.
Glad you enjoyed 😁and I sincerely hope I won't disappoint any time soon (or ever, that would be ideal) 😌 I'm working on a little something very special regarding the Tzimisce. Hopefully, you're going to love it
Oh my, oh my 🤩🤩🤩
"The Root of All" and "The Stars Above" both terms used in regards to Kupala and Saulot. Saulot has been consumed by Tremere, who's blood is of Tzimisce origin, and has since taken over the body. I posit that Saulot, Malkav, and The Eldest may be working collaboratively. Kupala's vampire mouth piece is Malkavian after all. The Baali learned Kuldonism as seen in the True Black Hand.
My hypothesis is they're working towards a global metamorphosis of some kind, fueled by Kupala.
I love that idea! Wow, that really opens up very interesting avenues of lore and inter-clan relations. If I may add my own thoughts to this:
We already know Malkav and Saulot were close (and maybe Set too). Since Saulot only allowed brother Malkav to see him in his time of most vulnerability of all his relatives (the isolation during the Baali War), we can assume they got along quite well, and probably trusted one another. After multiple clans obtain knowledge of Kupala, probably from the Eldest, Saulot battles this entity for control over Tremere. Octavio himself, though he is a mouthpiece for Kupala and makes sacrifices to this entity, tries warning others of the 8 signs and tries ridding himself of Kupala's influence (which he is aware is malign, but cannot resist it). Tzimisce itself is most likely aware of how sneaky and evil this being is, since Kupala is blighting its lands and corrupting its Clan, preventing them from reaching ascension.
Now, Metamorphosis on a wider scale would be a wonderful thing, since these 3 characters, Saulot, Malkav and Tzimisce are seekers of wisdom and transcendence, The Healer, The Seer and the Shaper (a very solid trinity right here!). The problem is, Kupala kinda... wins in the end. That thing beneath the sewers of New York isn't the Eldest, it's a dying mindless husk that is being controlled by Kupala. And try as he might, Saulot eventually has to put down his brother Tzimisce (if we consider that one Gehenna scenario)
Well, this is a just a quick 5 minute hypothesis. Your idea is killer, though. There's so much plot-twist potential and mysterious lore to uncover here 🥰
@@theoldcountry Keeping Kupala bound, the kouldonism the Baali practice is all about that. Could Saulot heal the Eldest of Kupala's influence? All interesting questions.
EDIT: Another clue, Dementation kept with the Malkavian Anti while the Cammi Malks got Dominate. So Malkavian's who participated in the Sabbat Ritae (originally Kouldonic rituals) retained a greater connection to Malkav. Also the Revenant families could prove the vector to spread this metamorphosis into wider humanity. Mind, Body, and Soul. Malkav, The Eldest, and Saulot?
he got knowledge but gave it away freely and told his childer to seek it out what you do with it is up to you i could tell you how to make thermite but why do i know well my job if i start cutting on or maching a part of metal in a shop i could start a fire that would burn the whole shop down or a person could use the same knowledge to do bad things knowledge in of itself is not bad what you do with it is where it can be good or bad
I agree with you in regards to the fact that knowledge in itself isn't inherently good or evil, but knowledge often comes at a price. Success comes with the cost of previous failure, repeated attempts to get it right and make it work. Not to mention, the means by which knowledge is aquired can be less than benevolent sometimes. For example, if I make child sacrifices to an evil deity in order to gain knowledge, I think we can all agree the means through which I am aquiring that knowledge are not exactly benign, and clearly not benevolent.
In regards to giving it away... well, in order to give knowledge away, you must first have that knowledge. So you can see why the previous dilema, the cost of knowledge, is so important.
And sometimes, the personal effort and pain endured throughout the process of knowledge acquisition bestows more wisdom than the very information which was saught in the first place.
The journey itself is very important 😌
It's like Saulot is a Hecate-esque tri-partite being in one:
-Saulot the Younger, The Lamb, The Healer, The Right Hand Path, The Pilar of Mercy, Chokmah, Chesed, Netzach
-Saulot the Man, The Goat, The Destroyer, The Left Hand Path, The Pillar of Severity, Binah, Gevurah, Hod
-Saulot the Elder, Capricorn, The Teacher, The Middle Path, The Pillar of Balance, Malkuth, Yesod, Tiphereth, Kether
Uuuu, I rather like this idea 😁 Oh, I like this idea a lot. Using this in my next chronicle in which Saulot-related things happen 🥰
@@theoldcountry Salubri DO come in three flavors: Healer (Young Saulot), Warrior (Mature, Saulot) and Watcher (Elder Saulot).
Edit: Also I just came up with one idea out of nowhere: What Saulot wasn't the only one that overwhelmed his diablerist? What if most of the upper echelons of Clan Tremere are actually Salubri Mathusaleahs and Elders playing the Camarilla like a fiddle? Imagine being the ONE non-salubri tremere sitting at the top of the pyramid, thinking you're hot stuff when you're surrounded by enemies and don't even know it.
@@PhoenixFlame321 I do see your point, but why associate the castes with the 3 aspects of Saulot? This implies all of them mature into Watchers, but really, Watchers came about as a result of persecution, being hunted, not as a result of higher wisdom.
No, I'm thinking the 3 aspects are phases of an individual journey each Salubri goes through, regardless of caste 🤔 and once a new level of initiation is achieved, the old ones are still there, they are all aspects of a "complete" Salubri. Becoming all 3 will make a Salubri whole, wise, mature
@@theoldcountry Admittedly, you looked into it way deeper than I intended, which I find Fascinating.
Still, although the three archetypes I drew don't need to be taken as a literal linear progression, more like a spectrum between Help/Heal(Mercy), Punish/Harm(Severity) and Watch/Understand(Contemplation). All three of them have a purpose during the right situatuons, and leaning towards one over the other three have it's own negative implications.
Excessive Mercy leads to opening oneself to exploitation and supporting unworthy entities and causes.
Excessive Severity leads to cruelty and destruction be served to those that doesn't deserve such.
Excessive Contemplation leads to inaction, wasting time seeking understanding when intervention is urgent.
Each Salubri caste leans to one of these three extremes, and must be balanced with the other two.
You can't truly heal others without understanding and knowing when to let go.
You can't truly make justice without kindness and wisdom.
You can't achieve true enlightenment without engaging with the good and bad that reality presents to you.
@@PhoenixFlame321 ^ This! Yup, this is what I'm saying 🥰
I will be great in my depravity, I finally know why kuei-jin cal him a traitor
One of your finest works neighbor, it was worth the wait.
I'm very happy you're saying that! 🙏 So glad you enjoyed 😉
I’ve been thinking about this recently, and I wonder if Samiel is the one ultimately responsible for Saulot’s realization that everyone’s been puppeted. He was the one that, being brought up in a strict culture of kindness and pacifism, ended up choosing his own path after all. Maybe Saulot at first saw him as an amusing and convenient tool for his Baali plans, and thus encouraged him to propagate both his children and the Warrior path. But after the defeat of the Baali, and the death of Samiel, perhaps Saulot looked upon that child of his and saw the true path. Samiel (un)lived and died on his own terms, doing what he believed to be the right thing. He did not bind himself with the traditions and culture of the Healers, and at the same time he did not completely reject them. He looked around at what was around himself, and decided what he believed was the best course of action. Maybe Saulot, upon reflection after Samiel’s death and the failure of the Baali, came to realize that Samiel represented the one thing that he had been yearning for this entire time. And thus he, having been visited by the greatest of angels and the worst of demons, determined what would be the best course of action for himself, and thus became the teacher he is in the modern nights.
@@cigman777 I don't think I've found details about Saulot's bond with Samiel anywhere (at this time, at least), but damn, I hope it was just the way you described it here. 🥰 Really nice idea! If you don't mind, I'm putting this one in my own idea vault, to include in future chronicles. See? This is what I'm talking about, this is why the written lore has so many holes in it, details left undescribed and mysterious mentions: so players can make sense of/ fill in the gaps themselves. And how beautifully we try to find missing peaces and make sense of it 🥰 I don't think there have been many instances in which a Sire truly learned something due to observance of a Childe and their struggles. Most are too self-absorbed and arrogant 🙄 Tzimisce, for instance, can absorb or reform inside of its Childer at any time, should it need to, so we know it's watching, but its no less selfish and... unaffected by observing them.
Perhaps Samiel's acknowledgement of the need for physical aggression in this conflict snapped some sense into Saulot. Yes, people (and this includes Kindred/Cainites) occasionally need to manifest physical aggression, maybe to prevent greater aggression, maybe to protect the ones they love. But! Said aggression can be controlled, channeled, applied when needed, without warping anyone's personality and ideals. You can USE the Beast without being a slave to it. You can use aggression and then return to peace, tranquility. The power is yours. The Baali War and this entire hell everyone is being put through now... is because Saulot never expressed that agression and anger he felt towards his Dark Father (or anyone, since he'salways been nice, calm etc.), he just represed it to the point that is poured out of him in torrents, uncontrollably, he didn't allow himself to be authentic, since he worshipped and admired Caine.
Yeeees, I will agree that the observance of Samiel is probably one of the things that awakened something in Saulot and invited a change 🤔
I really enjoyed reading your comment and I think it makes a lot of sense 😉
Another fantastic video. When you put it all together like this, it really does make sense. One thing i’m curious about is how you choose what books to read to get information on any given subject? There’s so many vampire sourcebooks out there from all the editions, if I wanted to do a deep dive on my favorite clan it’s difficult to figure out where I would look next after the clan books.
Glad you enjoyed it! 🥰 What I usually do is start from a WhiteWolf Wiki article (on whatever topic interests me), and check the reference section. That usually points me in the right direction, books, page numbers, all of that good stuff, which gives me a good starting point. I am, however, fortunate to have already read a lot of the books over the years, so even without consulting the Wiki I already know where to look, or even remember interesting bits of lore, stuff I've used for my own games and such. I've read a lot of these books over the years, me and my local group (since we all nerd out over the lore quite frequently). That's pretty much how I know when some articles are incomplete: they present too little information I'm already familiar with, or information that is contradicted by a source (or multiple sources) I've already read. Of course, a lot of my own Vampire materials are old, and some of the materials from the reference section on the Wiki I don't have at all, so whenever I realize I'm missing a book I need for an episode, I buy it as a PDF off of DriveThruRPG. I find PDFs to be very useful because you can just Ctrl + F and search keywords and such. Makes the lore-hunting process quicker 😉
Cheers!
I love this reading, im going to use it as part of my idea of Gehenna
🥰 Lovely! Mwhahahaha, glad you enjoyed and will be using this 😁
Saulot is a cinnamon roll too pure for this world who never did anything wrong! What Baali? 🤪
Yeah, I feel you, and Saulot is one of my favorite characters. I'd never have seen him as the Baali progenitor had I not read Transylvania Chronicles. Still not sure how I feel about it, but at least he's nice in the end, right? Right? 😢
Guy above me is a moron, Saulot is *clearly* a bloodthirsty monster. Don't listen to him.
Too late! Your soul is miiiine! *laughs in Shang Ts..ah, Saulot*
Excellent video
@@ΜαρίνοςΛούρος Thank you! Glad you enjoyed 😁
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed 😉
Dont really care about owod vampire lore to be honest but a good story is a good story.
I feel you 😄 Hope you enjoyed the episode, though. How's Demon going? Did you start a new chronicle?
@@theoldcountry
yes i started the berlin campaign its going well so far. I already know i wana modify a few things next time but so far its fun.
i also started a requiem campaign set in 2021. So far its cool