Yes, broadband (we call it "cable" here in the U.S.) is RF. In the US we have a "downstream" or incoming frequency that ranges from 500 to 800 MHz or so depending on the choice of the service provider. However, there is also an "upstream" or outgoing frequency that your home equipment uses to make requests for internet content or to purchase a movie, etc. The upstream frequency is much lower, usually in the area of 15 to 25 MHz. Since there is far less traffic going upstream the companies use the lower frequency, it also has to do with historically used frequencies and at one time there was no two-way communications over cable, only downstream so when a need for two-way came along they had to stay away from other in-use frequencies (lower frequencies are also cheaper to manage equipment wise). At the street level, the "coax" is not flexible stuff like RG6 or RG7 like you may expect but large aluminum thin-wall pipe with a solid copper core conductor insulated from the outer wall with high density foam. The system uses QAM or quadrature amplitude modulation. Digital is not really digital at this level but is an inferred digital equivalent based on the amplitude and signal voltage points on multiple waveforms, modems convert the QAM to true digital and assists with error correction, etc. . So YES definitely RF. Typically what happens is that wind (on pole based lines) or thermal or mechanical stress (pole or underground) will crack the outer pipe shield and produce an "annular ring" break where the pipe enters a compression fitting. That is the most common signal leakage cause. The "cabinet" on the street is where true digital is converted from fiber optic to QAM for the "last mile" to the consumer. If we all had "fiber to the home" as they term it here in the U.S. there would be no opportunity for such noise to be generated in the first place. Cheers as they say! Hands across the water forever. -Don Lewis
Hello...I listen to all your video's...I was wondering if you know were I can get the core's or IF transformers for BUSH TR-82D. I did the wrong thing and broke the core's...kinda stuck trying to find the parts..thanks.
I’m suffering a huge amount of interference with my 1947 AWA Radiola. I can’t figure out for the life of me what’s causing it, I live on acreage in regional Australia, so there shouldn’t be huge amounts of interference at all but I get an annoying crackle towards the lower end of the scale. We have wifi, but the interference is still present with it switched off.
Thanks! I'm glad I learn how this turned out. I wouldn't have suspected broadband -- too bad we don't know what they did to fix it, as it would be interesting just to know.
Congrats on finding the problem! The shielding on the coax as you describe was most likely the source. My guess is every conceivable harmonic and sub harmonic on the broadband line was induced on the poorly grounded shield. Spurious white noise like sound would result, question is why only up to 7MHz and no further?
The broadband also interferes with VHF radio reception. A ham operator here in the States had a clear transmitted signal, but could not receive anyone on the 2 meter band 144 to 148 MHz. We conversed about this several times. His interference was very much worse between 7:00 P.M. And 9:00 P.M. This is the time when the broadband signals are increased to deal with increased customer usage. I suggested he move the cable away from his 2 meter J pole antenna. He moved the cable only 6 to 12 inches further away from the his 2 meter antenna and the interference decreased dramatically. It is several weeks after the incident and the interference has not returned. I had not expected this on VHF. On HF yes, but not on VHF. Live and learn, or not. N0QFT, Glen
Hey Lewis..glad ur RFI is gone. But I am shocked that it may have been caused by the Broadband signal itself. It sounds so much more like a power-line or an AC generated source. It sounds nothing like any kind of band-wide digital broadband hash, I have so commonly heard from broadband or similar RFI from modems. cable TV boxes, wifi and SMPS etc. I have such a problem trying to find RFI sources using your method of 'holding the radio close to the cable", because of of so much induced RFI onto the shields and onto any other metal objects- such as service poles, towers etc. The RFI gets effectively "rebroadcasted" by any long run of wire, metal poles etc. This is especially true with electrical noise. Also seems to happen with digital noise that is 'put on to" the power lines from an offending device.(especially bad wall wart Switch Mode Power supplies) With the sound I hear from your video, I cant help but think it was in fact; electrical noise being induced somewhere onto the broadband line. The service may have fixed it by better grounding etc, or it may have stopped just by some co-incidence. Either way, tnx for the video. It is a sinking feeling when we turn on our radios, only to hear buzzing, digital hash and RFI noise. Joe
Hi Joe, you're right, the RFI is re-radiated by metal poles etc which can confuse locating the source. They fixed it somehow. As you say, probably a grounding issue. Cheers, Ray.
Well Ray it's good to hear your noise is gone, I've never used the twitter trick before but I have uploaded pictures of a defective vehicle structural fault to the Automotive company's main Facebook page and the resolution process initiated shortly there after :)
Very interesting, I am suffering massive interference and mostly it comes from Sky Q installations, these by default use power line communication to inject wide band radio signals into the mains cables of houses to act as a network for computers and modems. However this causes terrible interference or QRM. Your interference sounded just like it to me. I have a number of examples on my TH-cam. Google UKQRM for more info. Anyone with Sky Q can disable the PLT in the user settings.
We have got a 27 year old radio that has FM, LW, MW and 6 short wave bands and it still working perfectly after 27 years. The radios that you have are really beautiful. If only they made radios like they used to. The arial on my Roberts R-800 is 80.3 cm long and it gets a very good reception. how do you get hold of all your radios?
They are lovely radios. It's a shame they don't make them anymore. I've collected radios over the years from ebay and junk shops. Oh, and car boot sales. Regards, Ray.
I also have a Roberts R-800 and the Arial on it is 0.83 cm long and it gets a really good signal and has a really rich tone to it and also it has little markers for keeping the place of a radio station. It will take a very good DAB radio to beat that. There is also the Grundig Ocain boy 210 which has a Arial that is 5 ft long and it has the markers for keeping radio stations and space for 8 pre-set stations and they all have their own little radio tuner. and that was made in 1971 and it has that really nice stainless steel look that a lot of 1970s hifi has. I do not have that if I do ever see one of the I will try to buy it.
That's really interesting Ray, thank you- I'm also on the countries biggest cable telephone and broadband provider and I have the same interference, as does another guy here in Sheffield who I correspond with on the vintage radio & TV forum... right, where's that transistor set?!
Radio Workshop Hi Ray, just to let you know the outcome; and actually something really odd has happened. I was going to do the interference hunting yesterday, however when I got my portable out to see if it was coming up the cable, there was no interference- it had gone. So I thought: oh okay, perhaps its something industrial then, that only works during the week... but no, it's still gone today. Right now (2.20pm) I am sitting listening to RTE radio 1 on Long Wave on my Bush VHF62, with a very good quality signal indeed. With the interference present, you couldn't even hear Radio 4 from Droitwich! So I wonder what has happened? That interference has been there for as long as I remember! I am sceptical (or cynical?!) enough to think it will be back but there is always hope!!
I think it might have been a transformer in the broadband or a step up amplifier but for the actual data lines I don't think so. they use to separate frequencies to float the data on top. but it is so low of current, I can not believe you would have that much interference. I would still ask around it might have been something else, but either way it is good to know, because it is hard to seek noise sources out.
Radio Workshop Thanks for your good work, and all the time you have spent, on this situation, it will help others track down the problem faster next time it shows up. Cheers
I can't remember the frequencies used by that cable company but basically there are different rf carrier groups used in either direction on the coax, they have groups of "channels" available in either direction so your tv box can share the cable with your broadband modem. A family member that works for them reckons that at a push a number of subscribers can share a coax, ie in blocks of flats where you can't physically get any more cables into the duct. Unlike ADSL these frequencies are low VHF, I suspect your interference is related to the bit rate of the modulation rather than the carriers. If I stumble across better information I'll add it, glad you got it sorted..
Hi Ray, I see your latest video and the problem is fixed, looking at the DOCSIS 3.0 specs might help you... if you look back you'll see I gave a tiny bit mote info.. 73 de G0FVT
I had a similar issue with a Small tecsun SW Radio i had got, I have the external Antenna going out the window onto a pole and it was routed through an old phone wire hole about 2 feet from the in wire for my cable/broadband service and it would give me horrendous noise at peak times, Probably when the junction box gets busy and working hard to supply the street, Turns out there was a high Utilization issue in the street, It was fixed a few months ago with no more bleed noise, Until last week the problem came back, And the internet is a bit slower on peak times, It was probably the same thing, Company is V!rgin media lol, my house is right beside the box for the street, Its not the main cabinet but a junction point underground to distribute that leg of the street, Now i know when there is high utilization issues by switching on the radio haha
If you want to get any kind of response from a cable, phone or internet service provider just choose the 'establish new service' or 'upgrade service' option. Then tell the technician what your problem is. Sometimes they will promptly answer the phone when you choose 'establish new service 'but it might take some time if you're having trouble with existing service...
Funny that happened to me cable was fine saw the worker outside asked whats up? He said they were getting a weak spot in area so he was replacing lines ran a new line to my house and left
Altogether now - Told Ya So! Reckon if enough heavy users report a degraded service (thems what watch tele & play games on the net) it'll get fixed. Don't count your chickens just yet Ray, it'll be back. Nice touch being outraged not being able to hear the Beeb : ) Outside large conurbations, broadband still comes down a twisted pair.
I have been getting lots interference all over the FM band though it was coming from next but when I went in the other room it got a lot worse and seems to be my PC how annoying this is it might also be my new Home hub 5 doing some to.
"Someone's mowing their lawn!" --- Classic timing that was... :-)
🤣😂
Ray ... outstanding. You make radio so enjoyable to learn. Thank you for everything. Laurie
Thanks, Laurie.
Glad I stumbled across your channel Ray, fantastic vids, possibly my new favourite! Looking forward to more stories. Lewis
Hi Lewis, thanks for that. Glad you enjoyed it. Cheers, Ray.
Yes, broadband (we call it "cable" here in the U.S.) is RF. In the US we have a "downstream" or incoming frequency that ranges from 500 to 800 MHz or so depending on the choice of the service provider. However, there is also an "upstream" or outgoing frequency that your home equipment uses to make requests for internet content or to purchase a movie, etc. The upstream frequency is much lower, usually in the area of 15 to 25 MHz. Since there is far less traffic going upstream the companies use the lower frequency, it also has to do with historically used frequencies and at one time there was no two-way communications over cable, only downstream so when a need for two-way came along they had to stay away from other in-use frequencies (lower frequencies are also cheaper to manage equipment wise). At the street level, the "coax" is not flexible stuff like RG6 or RG7 like you may expect but large aluminum thin-wall pipe with a solid copper core conductor insulated from the outer wall with high density foam. The system uses QAM or quadrature amplitude modulation. Digital is not really digital at this level but is an inferred digital equivalent based on the amplitude and signal voltage points on multiple waveforms, modems convert the QAM to true digital and assists with error correction, etc. . So YES definitely RF. Typically what happens is that wind (on pole based lines) or thermal or mechanical stress (pole or underground) will crack the outer pipe shield and produce an "annular ring" break where the pipe enters a compression fitting. That is the most common signal leakage cause. The "cabinet" on the street is where true digital is converted from fiber optic to QAM for the "last mile" to the consumer. If we all had "fiber to the home" as they term it here in the U.S. there would be no opportunity for such noise to be generated in the first place. Cheers as they say! Hands across the water forever. -Don Lewis
Honesty I like the interference since I was a kid with my aunt when you used to find a station
Vintage radios are very special and quality
Thank you for letting us know.
Hello...I listen to all your video's...I was wondering if you know were I can get the core's or IF transformers for BUSH TR-82D. I did the wrong thing and broke the core's...kinda stuck trying to find the parts..thanks.
That is one awesome Ham Shack you have there!
Yes, Twitter is a great way to get in touch with companies.
Thank you for your videos. N0QFT, Glen
Well done!
I’m suffering a huge amount of interference with my 1947 AWA Radiola. I can’t figure out for the life of me what’s causing it, I live on acreage in regional Australia, so there shouldn’t be huge amounts of interference at all but I get an annoying crackle towards the lower end of the scale. We have wifi, but the interference is still present with it switched off.
Thanks! I'm glad I learn how this turned out. I wouldn't have suspected broadband -- too bad we don't know what they did to fix it, as it would be interesting just to know.
John W MacDonald I will try and find out what the problem was.
Squeeky wheel gets the grease! I`ll have to remember the Twitter trick.
Congrats on finding the problem! The shielding on the coax as you describe was most likely the source. My guess is every conceivable harmonic and sub harmonic on the broadband line was induced on the poorly grounded shield. Spurious white noise like sound would result, question is why only up to 7MHz and no further?
Reagan L. I don't know why 7.5mHz is the limit. I wish I could find out more about this.
The broadband also interferes with VHF radio reception.
A ham operator here in the States had a clear transmitted signal, but could not receive anyone on the 2 meter band 144 to 148 MHz.
We conversed about this several times. His interference was very much worse between 7:00 P.M. And 9:00 P.M. This is the time when the broadband signals are increased to deal with increased customer usage. I suggested he move the cable away from his 2 meter J pole antenna. He moved the cable only 6 to 12 inches further away from the his 2 meter antenna and the interference decreased dramatically. It is several weeks after the incident and the interference has not returned.
I had not expected this on VHF. On HF yes, but not on VHF. Live and learn, or not. N0QFT, Glen
Hi Glen, live and learn indeed! Thanks for commenting. Cheers, Ray.
Thanks a lot
Hey Lewis..glad ur RFI is gone.
But I am shocked that it may have been caused by the Broadband signal itself. It sounds so much more like a power-line or an AC generated source. It sounds nothing like any kind of band-wide digital broadband hash, I have so commonly heard from broadband or similar RFI from modems. cable TV boxes, wifi and SMPS etc.
I have such a problem trying to find RFI sources using your method of 'holding the radio close to the cable", because of of so much induced RFI onto the shields and onto any other metal objects- such as service poles, towers etc. The RFI gets effectively "rebroadcasted" by any long run of wire, metal poles etc. This is especially true with electrical noise. Also seems to happen with digital noise that is 'put on to" the power lines from an offending device.(especially bad wall wart Switch Mode Power supplies)
With the sound I hear from your video, I cant help but think it was in fact; electrical noise being induced somewhere onto the broadband line. The service may have fixed it by better grounding etc, or it may have stopped just by some co-incidence.
Either way, tnx for the video. It is a sinking feeling when we turn on our radios, only to hear buzzing, digital hash and RFI noise.
Joe
Hi Joe, you're right, the RFI is re-radiated by metal poles etc which can confuse locating the source. They fixed it somehow. As you say, probably a grounding issue. Cheers, Ray.
wow Ray those round radios are beautiful
superrobotfan1099 They are, indeed. Sadly, they're not mine. They belong to customers :-(
Well Ray it's good to hear your noise is gone, I've never used the twitter trick before but I have uploaded pictures of a defective vehicle structural fault to the Automotive company's main Facebook page and the resolution process initiated shortly there after :)
***** The twitter idea has never failed me. Big companies don't like to be moaned about on twitter, so they reply very quickly! Cheers, Ray.
Very interesting, I am suffering massive interference and mostly it comes from Sky Q installations, these by default use power line communication to inject wide band radio signals into the mains cables of houses to act as a network for computers and modems. However this causes terrible interference or QRM. Your interference sounded just like it to me. I have a number of examples on my TH-cam. Google UKQRM for more info. Anyone with Sky Q can disable the PLT in the user settings.
MikesMovies thanks, I'll check out your videos. Cheers, Ray.
We have had problems with squirrels chewing up the cable lines on the poles.
Oh, no! ☹️
We have got a 27 year old radio that has FM, LW, MW and 6 short wave bands and it still working perfectly after 27 years. The radios that you have are really beautiful. If only they made radios like they used to. The arial on my Roberts R-800 is 80.3 cm long and it gets a very good reception. how do you get hold of all your radios?
They are lovely radios. It's a shame they don't make them anymore. I've collected radios over the years from ebay and junk shops. Oh, and car boot sales. Regards, Ray.
I also have a Roberts R-800 and the Arial on it is 0.83 cm long and it gets a really good signal and has a really rich tone to it and also it has little markers for keeping the place of a radio station. It will take a very good DAB radio to beat that. There is also the Grundig Ocain boy 210 which has a Arial that is 5 ft long and it has the markers for keeping radio stations and space for 8 pre-set stations and they all have their own little radio tuner. and that was made in 1971 and it has that really nice stainless steel look that a lot of 1970s hifi has. I do not have that if I do ever see one of the I will try to buy it.
That's really interesting Ray, thank you- I'm also on the countries biggest cable telephone and broadband provider and I have the same interference, as does another guy here in Sheffield who I correspond with on the vintage radio & TV forum... right, where's that transistor set?!
Alan Cordwell Go for it, Alan. Good luck!
Radio Workshop Hi Ray, just to let you know the outcome; and actually something really odd has happened. I was going to do the interference hunting yesterday, however when I got my portable out to see if it was coming up the cable, there was no interference- it had gone. So I thought: oh okay, perhaps its something industrial then, that only works during the week... but no, it's still gone today. Right now (2.20pm) I am sitting listening to RTE radio 1 on Long Wave on my Bush VHF62, with a very good quality signal indeed. With the interference present, you couldn't even hear Radio 4 from Droitwich! So I wonder what has happened? That interference has been there for as long as I remember! I am sceptical (or cynical?!) enough to think it will be back but there is always hope!!
Alan Cordwell Hi Alan, my interference has returned, but it does disappear now and then. I don't know what's going on!
I think it might have been a transformer in the broadband or a step up amplifier but
for the actual data lines I don't think so. they use to separate frequencies to float the data on top. but it is so low of current, I can not believe you would have that much
interference. I would still ask around it might have been something else, but either way it is good to know, because it is hard to seek noise sources out.
MrMac5150 Thanks for the info, I will try and find out.
Radio Workshop
Thanks for your good work, and all the
time you have spent, on this situation, it will help others track down the problem faster next time it shows up. Cheers
Docsis 3.0 downstream spec starts from 108Mhz to 1.002Ghz. Upstream from 5Mhz to 85Mhz.
A quick Google search will give you more information...
I can't remember the frequencies used by that cable company but basically there are different rf carrier groups used in either direction on the coax, they have groups of "channels" available in either direction so your tv box can share the cable with your broadband modem. A family member that works for them reckons that at a push a number of subscribers can share a coax, ie in blocks of flats where you can't physically get any more cables into the duct. Unlike ADSL these frequencies are low VHF, I suspect your interference is related to the bit rate of the modulation rather than the carriers. If I stumble across better information I'll add it, glad you got it sorted..
David Lisney Hi David, that's really interesting. Thanks very much for the info, I'd like more if you can get it. Cheers, Ray.
Hi Ray, I see your latest video and the problem is fixed, looking at the DOCSIS 3.0 specs might help you... if you look back you'll see I gave a tiny bit mote info..
73 de G0FVT
I had a similar issue with a Small tecsun SW Radio i had got, I have the external Antenna going out the window onto a pole and it was routed through an old phone wire hole about 2 feet from the in wire for my cable/broadband service and it would give me horrendous noise at peak times, Probably when the junction box gets busy and working hard to supply the street, Turns out there was a high Utilization issue in the street, It was fixed a few months ago with no more bleed noise, Until last week the problem came back, And the internet is a bit slower on peak times, It was probably the same thing, Company is V!rgin media lol, my house is right beside the box for the street, Its not the main cabinet but a junction point underground to distribute that leg of the street, Now i know when there is high utilization issues by switching on the radio haha
Excellent, thanks for that.
If you want to get any kind of response from a cable, phone or internet service provider just choose the 'establish new service' or 'upgrade service' option. Then tell the technician what your problem is. Sometimes they will promptly answer the phone when you choose 'establish new service 'but it might take some time if you're having trouble with existing service...
Funny that happened to me cable was fine saw the worker outside asked whats up? He said they were getting a weak spot in area so he was replacing lines ran a new line to my house and left
Altogether now - Told Ya So! Reckon if enough heavy users report a degraded service (thems what watch tele & play games on the net) it'll get fixed. Don't count your chickens just yet Ray, it'll be back. Nice touch being outraged not being able to hear the Beeb : ) Outside large conurbations, broadband still comes down a twisted pair.
Robert Johnson You said it will be back and... It is! Blimey, this is a nightmare!
I have been getting lots interference all over the FM band though it was coming from next but when I went in the other room it got a lot worse and seems to be my PC how annoying this is it might also be my new Home hub 5 doing some to.
EastAngliaUK Computers can be a real problem. I hope you get it sorted out. Cheers, Ray.
Can u help me how to connect Aerial in bush radios
Balaji dhoni what is the model number of your radio?
@@g4nsj Bush radio AC RECEIVER TYPE EBS 50 LONDON ENGLAND
Balaji dhoni it has its own internal aerial. I don’t think you can connect an external aerial.
@@g4nsj Is there any online links for external Aerial to purchase
Balaji dhoni Not that I know of.
Sheesh, Smithy & Dick never had this trouble in "Radio Constructor"!
Neither did Henry in Practical Wireless. Haha! Love it!
A UK cable company, sounds like bloggs media, I wonder who it could be? It's good that they seemed to take this issue seriously by affecting a repair.
toppledgod They certainly did take it seriously. A clue as to who they are... Madonna had a hit with this title.
Radio Workshop I think I suffered a sarcasm fail, but thanks! I'm curious if they're not the ONLY UK Cable company?
Now you mention it, I think they are the only one.
Kudos to VM!
I m sorry sir....when you died....i think you not bought your stuff with you when you died...i think i need all your stuff....thank you.
You mean tubes :-)
Oh and nice glass of water... right ;-)
TheTimeSpiders Hehe!
You mean virgin cant speak to any one but take your money