I suspect that it was actually being used for forestry rather than farming. There's stories of various surplus tracked vehicles being used after the war for skidding timber. I'm sure there was an article in Forestry and British Timber (the old trade rag) about 20 years ago on the subject. Vaguely remember seeing a photo of a sherman with the top half of the hull hacked off.
That's really interesting. If they're available why not use them? My great uncle was a Russian soldier in WW2 and he said the after-war years were really grueling having to rebuild everything destroyed in the war. They used every available vehicle and installed dozer blades and backhoes on whatever they could.
I think beetooex is correct, the photo of the Traclat comes from one of Maurice H Saunders's books, probably "Earth and Tree Moving in War and Peace". It's a while since I read it, but I think Saunders bought a Traclat and used it for forestry / land clearance work post-war and the photo is his. I have the book, but it's not to hand, but I think he also bought a Famo Sd.Kfz. 9 for similar work, but neither proved as suitable or cheap as ex-Army 4x4 trucks, hence the number of Matadors that survived.
One of the few surviving (and restored and running) FT tanks was rescued, a former agricultural vehicle. The top armor and turret had been removed and a farm tractor seat was positioned higher than the original floor pad, attached to the armor walls.
The modified Sherman, sounds quite plausible. Believe it or not, I came across such a vehicle used by a timber company in the Olympic National Park in Washington state back in the mid-1990s. Just as you mentioned, they chopped the fighting compartment and turret off a Sherman and replaced it with a pivoting derrick crane with cabin (then painted it bright day-glow orange!). The thing was quite bizarre looking, like something out of a post apocalyptic Mad Max movie.
The reason the German version didn't steer the tracks till full lock is high speed handling. The track braking system tends to overcorrect on roads if it provides meaningful impact on loose/muddy ground.
P S....this got me to subscribe to your channel. Bart was a great guy but, 1 day I hope someone will correct his entry on the Austin Champ and how 4 wheel drive was engaged.
The Bedford Traclat suffered from the same problem as it's German cousins, the design with an unpowered front axle meant that a track breaking immobilised the vehicle. The US White & International half-tracks had a powered front axle, so if one track broke it could struggle along until a new track was fitted (a relatively easy job as they were rubber bands)
@@Paciat "thoughtlessly repeat what you heard elsewhere' Huh? Perhaps you should try reading and understanding what I wrote? I was not commenting on the construction of the tracks, rather the fact that a powered front axle allowed mobility after a track was broken. The simpler US design of tracks meant changing a track was easier. Your point about rubber track pads' is irrelevant, I was referring to broken tracks, not the rubber tread blocks part falling out.
I doubt very much that you'd get much in the way of mobility with one track missing. Those little wheel bogies wouldn't last long. I think it's more a case that the powered front axle , together with a shorter track base, allowed for steering without the use of a complex (and heavy) braked differential arrangement .
Given availability the crusader hull would have been the best choice as it at least has some ability to take mg fire and light fragments without being knocked out..
I first read about the Traclat in an article buy Les Freathy in "Army and Navty Modelworld" July 1983. To paraphrase from the magazine, he says that Vauxhall adopted a somewhat obstructive attitude by showing unwillingness to begin work unless a substantial order could be assured. It seems that Vauxhall also expressed doubt about large scale production as it would interfere with tank production. Despite all the favourable reports it was the Ministry of Supply that decided that the production costs exceeded the value of the vehicle.
Your videos are awesome! Great modeler inspiration. Where do you go for your research that you show at the end of your video? The place looks very familiar.
Mind, the German system was not so much overengineered as optimized for high-speed off-road capability so they could follow the Panzers over all the same ground the Panzers could cross. The US and French halftracks were really only intended to be utility vehicles, to operate on softer ground than normal trucks could, but not expected to follow the tanks over all the terrain that tanks could cross. One reason that vehicles like the Kangaroo APC became popular with Allied armored units was because they could, being converted tank chasses, actually follow the tanks everywhere all the time without question.
Mind, the British had the Universal Carrier in development at the time, and it basically could do everything the French halftracks were trying to do. The French and British alike were still mostly thinking in terms of a small utility vehicle to replace small horse teams and small trucks, not large vehicles to replace large trucks. Only the Germans were really thinking in terms of entire units that could operate entirely off roads, hence their desire for large halftracks.
Fully tracked vehicles were shown to be better. Half tracks were an answer to the poor steering of the WW1 tracked vehicles. No-one built half tracks much after WW2.
@@allangibson8494 because technology improves... Like how Tigers and Panthers ride comfort wasn't achieved until Leopard 2...and who had ability to shoot on the move(low speed and level ground) without gun stabilisation. Now if railway tunnels allowed wider Panzers to be moved trough(like they do now), Germans would be having 128mm tanks in 43 instead of 128mm assault guns.
@@allangibson8494 no thats not the reason. the reason half tracks were used was for a balance, while normal trucks would be better on roads then a halftrack, it was worse off road, and while a fully tracked vehicle would be better off road, it be worse on road. so they did both, have the driving part be the tracks to give it the grip needed off road, while having a wheel up front so driving on roads would be easier. the germans took this to a whole new level by giving their half tracks the ability to steer with their tracks, something no one else could do, giving them far better control off road. the reason they stopped is because well, trucks started getting far better to the point you dont need to worry that much about off road ability. its good enough.
Half-track sexiness! The world is a darker and sadder place, due to the disappearance of such a beautiful species. German halfies were way prettier. But, this one has some va-va-va-voom (or should I say "vroom"?)!!!
What an odd assortment of vehicles for development of an artillery tractor. A competition between a monstrous dual engine complex suspension half-track, an overweight tank minus its gun and an underweight, underbuilt actual self-propelled gun. It seems obvious to mount the gun on the Crusader instead of using it as an overblown tractor. It's not the best choice but I'm sure they were plentiful and the price (already paid for surplus) was right. If they really wanted to avoid a 6x6, the sensible upgrade from a 4 wheel unit, the US M4 high speed tractor looks far superior, except maybe in cost.
I am often wrong, but I think you are sort of right - I recall that the track links on German halftracks all had roller bearings in that needed lubing, plus the interleaved road wheels were more complex to make and deal with - so not the suspension as such, but the track system as a whole. Compare it to how the USA did it - simple and robust.
@@Simon_Nonymous Different advantages though. the US sytemwas basically the White scout car with a big rubber band to improve the ground traction, the short track length was cheap and easy to produce and it allowed a beter turning circle but it was basically a truck with slightly better off road ability. the Germans longer track and steered track system made it heavy, expensive and difficult to produce but the lower ground pressure and greater grip made it immensely better at towing and cross country ability as long as you only intended to go in a straight line. If you want a better comparison look at the Opel Maultiers which used the original truck axle moved forward and used to drive a spare Carden-Lloyd suspension system, exactly the same design the Maericans used but using recycled caputured vehicle suspension and metal tracks becasue the Germans were desperately short on rubber.
I agree, tis a shame not one exists, just looked at my very old Bart Vanderveen book, not there. Surprised that Bedford went for the interleaved wheels, which had and still has some criticism in that you need to remove a few front wheels to get at the inner ones if things go pear shaped. Also at 2 miles to the gallon, glad I don't own one.
@@simonmcowan6874 Thanks for making me feel so old with an anorak...LOL Any pages you would like a copy of in particular?...My copy is well used and certainly far from mint condition but I can try my computer skills to provide something to fill the blanks.
@@dukwdriver2909 found out that my first edition Bart Vanderveen is sitting in my brothers library, so thank you for your offer, I'll just arrange for the book to be posted back, ps I was 14 when I bought it, well into my military vehicles, the local fair would arrive, younger bro and I would go not for the rides, but to see ex military Bedfords, Albion, Matador, and others.
I suspect the 25pdr set-up would tax the capability of the M3. The gun itself seems to be within the towing capacity, but then you have to add gun crew, ammunition and gun accessories. At the weight limit, the off-road capability of the track surely would be diminished, not to mention the durability of the rubber track. Sure they put 105s on them, but we're those really desirable, or just expedient?
@@chriskortan1530 I suggested unarmoured in order to save weight and allow for all the additions you mention. The Tracklat had 136 hp and the M3 148 hp so a slight advantage there. The band tracks seem to have worked well and we were using some M3 as troop carriers, so the parts were in the system.
@@charlesphillips4575 a lighter vehicle doesn't necessarily allow for more towing capacity. It often decreases what a truck can tow. I understood the idea that the equipment and crew would "replace" the armor, but then its weight and tractive effort becomes inconsistent. It's not just weight, it's the ability of the relatively non-aggressive track and small footprint to pull the weight across rough terrain. On the road it would probably be excellent. Of course it would fit the apparent objective of being relatively cheap and plentiful.
In retrospect why bother with anything but the bren carrier? That being said has there been any prototype IFV or APC made with the bren carrier? I'd imagine someone would have gotten the idea as soon as the war ended given how many were around.
The Bren gun carrier was a very small vehicle with a flat head engine that was probably less than 50 horsepower. I don’t think they would have been up to the job.
like above, bren carrier are to small (in term of size and horse power) to pull those bigger guns so they need a bigger vehicle for the job and half track are the "best" candidate for the new vehicle although history proved that hybrid like halftrack are great on paper but bad on practice since it add more logistical burden to the crew
I suspect that it was actually being used for forestry rather than farming. There's stories of various surplus tracked vehicles being used after the war for skidding timber. I'm sure there was an article in Forestry and British Timber (the old trade rag) about 20 years ago on the subject. Vaguely remember seeing a photo of a sherman with the top half of the hull hacked off.
Bren carriers certainly got used, a few into the sixties IRRC.
That's really interesting. If they're available why not use them? My great uncle was a Russian soldier in WW2 and he said the after-war years were really grueling having to rebuild everything destroyed in the war. They used every available vehicle and installed dozer blades and backhoes on whatever they could.
I think beetooex is correct, the photo of the Traclat comes from one of Maurice H Saunders's books, probably "Earth and Tree Moving in War and Peace". It's a while since I read it, but I think Saunders bought a Traclat and used it for forestry / land clearance work post-war and the photo is his. I have the book, but it's not to hand, but I think he also bought a Famo Sd.Kfz. 9 for similar work, but neither proved as suitable or cheap as ex-Army 4x4 trucks, hence the number of Matadors that survived.
One of the few surviving (and restored and running) FT tanks was rescued, a former agricultural vehicle. The top armor and turret had been removed and a farm tractor seat was positioned higher than the original floor pad, attached to the armor walls.
The modified Sherman, sounds quite plausible. Believe it or not, I came across such a vehicle used by a timber company in the Olympic National Park in Washington state back in the mid-1990s. Just as you mentioned, they chopped the fighting compartment and turret off a Sherman and replaced it with a pivoting derrick crane with cabin (then painted it bright day-glow orange!). The thing was quite bizarre looking, like something out of a post apocalyptic Mad Max movie.
The reason the German version didn't steer the tracks till full lock is high speed handling. The track braking system tends to overcorrect on roads if it provides meaningful impact on loose/muddy ground.
Very pleasantly surprised you took this detour from armoured vehicles to explore this little known eccentric attempt at a universal tug solution.
P S....this got me to subscribe to your channel. Bart was a great guy but, 1 day I hope someone will correct his entry on the Austin Champ and how 4 wheel drive was engaged.
" imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." 😁👍
As always a very interesting video, I appreciate your hard work thank you.
The Bedford Traclat suffered from the same problem as it's German cousins, the design with an unpowered front axle meant that a track breaking immobilised the vehicle. The US White & International half-tracks had a powered front axle, so if one track broke it could struggle along until a new track was fitted (a relatively easy job as they were rubber bands)
@@Paciat "thoughtlessly repeat what you heard elsewhere' Huh?
Perhaps you should try reading and understanding what I wrote? I was not commenting on the construction of the tracks, rather the fact that a powered front axle allowed mobility after a track was broken. The simpler US design of tracks meant changing a track was easier. Your point about rubber track pads' is irrelevant, I was referring to broken tracks, not the rubber tread blocks part falling out.
@@jchinuk Sorry. My bad. Was smoking m... you dont need to hear that. :P
Was not aware of that. Thanks.
I doubt very much that you'd get much in the way of mobility with one track missing. Those little wheel bogies wouldn't last long.
I think it's more a case that the powered front axle , together with a shorter track base, allowed for steering without the use of a complex (and heavy) braked differential arrangement .
Thanks a great video.
Hope you have a Great Christmas.
All the best for 2023.
Cheers
Same to you
Given availability the crusader hull would have been the best choice as it at least has some ability to take mg fire and light fragments without being knocked out..
i was only familiar with the crusader based carrier until now, ed - thanks once again for an informative video!
I first read about the Traclat in an article buy Les Freathy in "Army and Navty Modelworld" July 1983. To paraphrase from the magazine, he says that Vauxhall adopted a somewhat obstructive attitude by showing unwillingness to begin work unless a substantial order could be assured. It seems that Vauxhall also expressed doubt about large scale production as it would interfere with tank production. Despite all the favourable reports it was the Ministry of Supply that decided that the production costs exceeded the value of the vehicle.
yeahh thats sounds like a vuaxhall thing, wont be the first time with them
Another great little video on an interesting subject. We'll done & keep at it! 👍🏻👏🏻
Thank you. Nice to have a bit more detail on this machine. I have been intrigued by its development for about five years.
I really enjoyed this video thank you. 👍
Thanks for another brilliant video. Excellent channel
Half tracks are so unequal and cool something about a truck with tracks in the place of rear wheels
Very interesting. Nice to get some more info in this fascinating Project.
very interesting, nice one
Thank you,fascinating 👍
Your videos are awesome! Great modeler inspiration. Where do you go for your research that you show at the end of your video? The place looks very familiar.
national archives :)
thanks
Great video , has the sound quality ( SQ ) improved , new mike ?
I always liked the tracklet as a concept but it seemed a little over-engineered, just like the German original. Nice to hear more about it,
Mind, the German system was not so much overengineered as optimized for high-speed off-road capability so they could follow the Panzers over all the same ground the Panzers could cross. The US and French halftracks were really only intended to be utility vehicles, to operate on softer ground than normal trucks could, but not expected to follow the tanks over all the terrain that tanks could cross. One reason that vehicles like the Kangaroo APC became popular with Allied armored units was because they could, being converted tank chasses, actually follow the tanks everywhere all the time without question.
@@genericpersonx333 Good response.
I have often wondered why Britain did not have half tracks before the war. Especially having seen what the French did with them.
Mind, the British had the Universal Carrier in development at the time, and it basically could do everything the French halftracks were trying to do. The French and British alike were still mostly thinking in terms of a small utility vehicle to replace small horse teams and small trucks, not large vehicles to replace large trucks. Only the Germans were really thinking in terms of entire units that could operate entirely off roads, hence their desire for large halftracks.
Fully tracked vehicles were shown to be better. Half tracks were an answer to the poor steering of the WW1 tracked vehicles.
No-one built half tracks much after WW2.
@@allangibson8494 because technology improves...
Like how Tigers and Panthers ride comfort wasn't achieved until Leopard 2...and who had ability to shoot on the move(low speed and level ground) without gun stabilisation.
Now if railway tunnels allowed wider Panzers to be moved trough(like they do now), Germans would be having 128mm tanks in 43 instead of 128mm assault guns.
@@allangibson8494 no thats not the reason.
the reason half tracks were used was for a balance, while normal trucks would be better on roads then a halftrack, it was worse off road, and while a fully tracked vehicle would be better off road, it be worse on road.
so they did both, have the driving part be the tracks to give it the grip needed off road, while having a wheel up front so driving on roads would be easier. the germans took this to a whole new level by giving their half tracks the ability to steer with their tracks, something no one else could do, giving them far better control off road.
the reason they stopped is because well, trucks started getting far better to the point you dont need to worry that much about off road ability. its good enough.
“Mad germans basement “ just got this image of a man with crazy white hair and a large basement full of rare armored vehicles.
It must be in reference to the guy in Northern Germany who had a Panther and 8,8cm in his basement.
@@toshtenstahl And then the German government stole it from him, and damaged the Panther while removing it from the basement.
Half-track sexiness! The world is a darker and sadder place, due to the disappearance of such a beautiful species. German halfies were way prettier. But, this one has some va-va-va-voom (or should I say "vroom"?)!!!
What an odd assortment of vehicles for development of an artillery tractor. A competition between a monstrous dual engine complex suspension half-track, an overweight tank minus its gun and an underweight, underbuilt actual self-propelled gun. It seems obvious to mount the gun on the Crusader instead of using it as an overblown tractor. It's not the best choice but I'm sure they were plentiful and the price (already paid for surplus) was right. If they really wanted to avoid a 6x6, the sensible upgrade from a 4 wheel unit, the US M4 high speed tractor looks far superior, except maybe in cost.
AHHH but that would be sensible.. not il admit our strongest forte
Thanks for an interesting machine.
Wasn't the German halftrack suspension system a lot more expensive to produce?
I am often wrong, but I think you are sort of right - I recall that the track links on German halftracks all had roller bearings in that needed lubing, plus the interleaved road wheels were more complex to make and deal with - so not the suspension as such, but the track system as a whole. Compare it to how the USA did it - simple and robust.
@@Simon_Nonymous Simple, robust and much less enjoyably for the crew to ride in.
@@Simon_Nonymous Different advantages though. the US sytemwas basically the White scout car with a big rubber band to improve the ground traction, the short track length was cheap and easy to produce and it allowed a beter turning circle but it was basically a truck with slightly better off road ability.
the Germans longer track and steered track system made it heavy, expensive and difficult to produce but the lower ground pressure and greater grip made it immensely better at towing and cross country ability as long as you only intended to go in a straight line.
If you want a better comparison look at the Opel Maultiers which used the original truck axle moved forward and used to drive a spare Carden-Lloyd suspension system, exactly the same design the Maericans used but using recycled caputured vehicle suspension and metal tracks becasue the Germans were desperately short on rubber.
@@voiceofraisin3778 that is a fabulous reply - thank you for your time and expertise!!
I agree, tis a shame not one exists, just looked at my very old Bart Vanderveen book, not there. Surprised that Bedford went for the interleaved wheels, which had and still has some criticism in that you need to remove a few front wheels to get at the inner ones if things go pear shaped. Also at 2 miles to the gallon, glad I don't own one.
Your Bart book is obviously not as old as mine. That is where I first learned of Traclat
@@dukwdriver2909 i lost my 1st edition unfortunately.
@@simonmcowan6874 Thanks for making me feel so old with an anorak...LOL Any pages you would like a copy of in particular?...My copy is well used and certainly far from mint condition but I can try my computer skills to provide something to fill the blanks.
@@dukwdriver2909 found out that my first edition Bart Vanderveen is sitting in my brothers library, so thank you for your offer, I'll just arrange for the book to be posted back, ps I was 14 when I bought it, well into my military vehicles, the local fair would arrive, younger bro and I would go not for the rides, but to see ex military Bedfords, Albion, Matador, and others.
@@simonmcowan6874 So pleased to hear of this reunion, please enjoy.
Would have made for a very interestig Beutevehicle.
More Please!
Great info!!!!
I thought that looked like the FAMO
I wonder how an unarmoured version of the US M3 half-track would have done.
I suspect the 25pdr set-up would tax the capability of the M3. The gun itself seems to be within the towing capacity, but then you have to add gun crew, ammunition and gun accessories. At the weight limit, the off-road capability of the track surely would be diminished, not to mention the durability of the rubber track. Sure they put 105s on them, but we're those really desirable, or just expedient?
@@chriskortan1530 I suggested unarmoured in order to save weight and allow for all the additions you mention. The Tracklat had 136 hp and the M3 148 hp so a slight advantage there.
The band tracks seem to have worked well and we were using some M3 as troop carriers, so the parts were in the system.
@@charlesphillips4575 a lighter vehicle doesn't necessarily allow for more towing capacity. It often decreases what a truck can tow. I understood the idea that the equipment and crew would "replace" the armor, but then its weight and tractive effort becomes inconsistent.
It's not just weight, it's the ability of the relatively non-aggressive track and small footprint to pull the weight across rough terrain. On the road it would probably be excellent.
Of course it would fit the apparent objective of being relatively cheap and plentiful.
If this is not a half-tracked but a three-quarter tracked vehicle, what would a one-quarter tracked look like?
The vehicle at 1:26 minus a couple road wheels.
Nice video
🔵🔵🔵👍👍👍🙂🙂🙂🔵🔵🔵
In retrospect why bother with anything but the bren carrier? That being said has there been any prototype IFV or APC made with the bren carrier? I'd imagine someone would have gotten the idea as soon as the war ended given how many were around.
The Bren gun carrier was a very small vehicle with a flat head engine that was probably less than 50 horsepower. I don’t think they would have been up to the job.
like above, bren carrier are to small (in term of size and horse power) to pull those bigger guns so they need a bigger vehicle for the job and half track are the "best" candidate for the new vehicle although history proved that hybrid like halftrack are great on paper but bad on practice since it add more logistical burden to the crew
@@trappenweisseguy27 Yes. I suspect that the Alecto was something of a stand in for a larger Universal Carrier replacement.
So what did the British Army use as artillery tractor postwar?
a wide mixture of tat, from off carriers, left over ww2 wheeled stuff and even tanks to drag stuff.
Eventually they opted for 6x6 wheeled tractors, the AEC Militant and Leyland Martian.
Looks German to me.
P r o m o s m 😉
Good engineering but unnecessary.
Even 80 years ago most Western Europe had excellent roads 👌
Yeah, but in the usa with our roads destroyed every winter by potholes they wont fix til august, we sure could use these in the snow belt!!!!!!