I like the emphasis on six inch space between the two rails and how every car that went over it made a thump as the steel wheel slipped into that area.
The really sad thing is there was probably somebody sitting behind a desk somewhere knowing about this thinking, "This is great! If I don't let the tracks get worse than this I can save the company 70% on maintenance costs! Woohoo, promotion here I come! Honey, pack the bags, we're going to Hawaii!"
+Mark Schmidt It's not that sad really. That track hasn't been useful to the US since the mid 60's when the Wabash RR stopped maintaining it. It's a relic from the time before the Interstate. It should be turned into a greenway or a nature way because if the RR that operates it can't maintain it then...
@@Odin029 that's a pioneer line, they are rehabbing everything.....your remark is foolish to say the least and you probably complain about truck traffic too
@@marthas.4456 It's safer than a truck doing 70mph on the interstate. indeed, this video is showing several hundred trucks not moving on the interstate.
Nope. This is called FRA excepted rail. There are restrictions on how many haz-mat loads can be moved in a train. (5). A 10mph restriction is also placed on FRA excepted rail.
Your glee at the percieved downfall of America can only mean that you are a Democrat..Well buddy boy America loving Republicans are in charge now and America IS healing and getting stronger..Why don't you leave and go live in someplace like Cuba or Venezuela where you would be happy?
aryanscience okay buddy Nazi. He wasn’t saying he wants to see America fall. He was laughing at the irony of a car that says “Building America” being moved over a rail like that’s in absolutely awful shape.
round-up is expensive. Several miles of weedspray cost lines thousands and thousands of dollars. Ties are over $30 each installed. It's easy to cast stones and say they don't care. But to be honest that is very unfair to the owners of this type of line who are just trying to stay in business
C'mon, this line is pure NOSTALGIA!!! I hate to see lines get abandoned, God bless these folks for keeping this line going, infact, I think I'll take a road trip and catch these lucky bastards operating this beautiful line!!! I'll just have to be sure to keep a safe distance....
this is depressing how do they get away with this is it the fact their that broke or are they just tightwads somebody help me make sense of this please
meanwhile "greedy corporate conglomerates " are sailing in their yachts, or zooming around in their private jets thinking about all the money they can swindle. God bless the working man
I agree. We have had so many bad Presidents and it looks like we're to get another one. When will it ever stop. The Country is being flushed down the toilet so fast.
bill bob maybe the for profit model isn’t the paradigm to judge success for a mode of transportation. Take highways for instance, they never earn a profit, but are deemed a public necessity for the movement of goods, services, and people. Railroads were screwed when states barred railroads from receiving funds from internal improvement clauses, which later created highways and airports. This railroad seems to be suffering from deferred maintenance, but does not have the capital and resources to upgrade the weight of the rail, reballast the line, upgrade structures, etc.
Many Railroads have had grants, loans and subsidies going back to the beginning of railroads in 1830. The amount of miles of railroad track in usage peaked about 100 years ago. Since 2000 there is some resurgence in the USA with railroads. Old tracks that were abandoned or in ill shape are now being reused. With your "greedy corporate conglomerates" they have to do a return on investment to upgrade the rails. With the government they can fund rails to nowhere since its the publics cash.
Federal Grants. Pioneer threatened the State of Ohio that they would not provide rail service to it's customers if the State didn't pay for track upgrades. Look dude, I'm on your side. Don't get your panties in a wad.
Where does all the graffiti come from on these cars? I see some much of that today. Isn't there any security in rail yards? What happened to the days when every car had a road name on it and even advertising slogans?
I saw the train in Defiance from the rear and the last car was leaning so badly it looked as though it would tip over. The line actually runs into Indiana and at last look they were using the track to store cars up the line outside of Defiance. For a time the line stopped in Defiance at the CSX mainline on the west side of town it has since been reconnected to the line west.
All I see is the hoghead. Where is the conductor? Did he jump of that thing a mile ago (3 hours ago) in disgust? The next time I complain about a 25 mph slow order I am going to watch this!
Mr. Michael Appleby, in your post you have publicly and specifically accused the owners of the line and the FRA of multiple felonies. You have also accused the state of Ohio of neglect in that they gave away money and did not follow up to see the work was completed. Hopefully those reading your BS fabrications understand no one was remotely guilty of what you accuse them of and that they recognize your post as a pathetic childish attempt to gain attention.
As a railroader labourer/thermite welder and maintainer up in Canada, I watch these videos and I don't even know where I would start probably rip the whole line up and rebuild the grade and then ties to new rail. But a guy has to remember this stuff takes money which alot of shortlines don't have an abundance of to spend on maintaining there track and believe me it would cost them alot of it just to repair it.
Brinkmans compensation via Google was about 700k. That would buy 2 miles of super fast 25mph rails if he paid himself zero. It would upgrade the entire Pioneer Rail's tracks in just 300 years.
If our president is re-elected, industry will come back to the US - - and there will be a NEED for more small branch railroads. If not, continued decline.
maybe there is a time warp of a century? The railroads "greedy corporate conglomerates " were "robber barons" coined in 1870. Railroads peaked 100 years ago and so did the track mileage and robber barons . It is only in the last decade that freight has made a decent comeback. The robber barons are in 100 year old history books. So who are the current railroad "greedy corporate conglomerates "?
Boss302fan Eat me, troll. If you can't tell the difference between cowardice and common sense, then you shouldn't be allowed out in public without a chaperone. By the way, it's time for you to give the computer back to your mother - it's hers anyway. She worked for it - you didn't.
Interesting that the track is in such bad shape yet they seem to still have a good amount of tonnage to move over it. I wonder what the people served by this line must think?
notice the heavy equipment in the first view - - evidently upgrades on the way - - lots of places in US small branch RR's are COMING BACK - - - good luck
Pioneer Rails entire 2012 Revenue in 2012 was 20.359 Million dollars. Cost of revenue was 9.4 million. Net income was 0.919 million. *IF* all that Revenue went into new track they could buy 70 miles of 25mph track. So all they need is free fuel, free repairs, free workers, free insurance at all levels! So Experts where does the raw cash come from to pay for the rail upgrades?
Naw! Not in Indiana already. I thought Hoosiers took better care of their tracks than this. I've seen some pretty bad tracks around here, but that track needs to be condemned.
How can a railroad such as this make any money? What about liability issues?? I have seen this track and it is the worst. Hard to believe that trains used to high ball it through here.
Wonder how many derailments they have in a week..? The FRA & TxDOT shut down a shortline in Texas recently for failure to maintain a crossing gate at one US highway crossing.. Looks like this line is on borrowed time... New rail cost's roughly $ 1.4 million a mile, plus any bridges & viaducts..!
disaster? disaster? No. A disaster is what happens at 70mph on the freeway when truckers have an accident next to a minivan full of children. An accident here is...oh shit, let's ramp the wheels back up and keep going
Those tracks are wonderful compared to here in Louisiana! Hwy 23 from Gretna to Port Sulfur there are Chemical plants and a few Warehouses and other businesses that use the train to transport! The train going down those tracks you can watch the engine and cars going up and down side to side and I can't tell you how many times train cars flip on their sides all along that hwy! Plus Central Avenue train yard always has accidents in fact 1 of the accidents is in a video on TH-cam!!! I guess because the ground is so soft because New Orleans and Metairie and all around this area was mostly Swamp land and the city streets and even the houses always need to be fixed!!! But when you add trains and the tracks and the weight you will always have problems unless you are doing maintenance constantly and none of the railroads do maintenance work constantly!!! The hwy 23 railroad tracks are the worst! The only time anyone fixes anything on those tracks are when a derailment happens then they only fix the 1 little area where the accident occurred! If you get out of your car or truck and look down the tracks the first thing to pop into your head is how in the hell do any trains stay on the tracks! But the railroad company only hauls a few cars at a time with a small switch engine and they probably do less than 5 mph!!! The bad part of the whole thing is that most of the time they are hauling deadly chemicals which would be serious because you have neighborhoods all along the hwy 23!!! I think that Louisiana has the worst train tracks in the nation!!!!
This is what we used to call a wooden axle railroad. Wonder if they get wheel slip for all the weeds. Hope a traction motor does flash over, they’ll burn the railroad down.
The largest insider in Pioneer holds 62099 shares of stock. At 7.45 today that is 462k bucks. This would buy 1.4 miles of new 25mph track. That is 1/400th of the track they own. So where do all the youtube train experts think all the raw cash is to upgrade old rails? More taxes? Higher Freight costs? Giant Federal grants; ie more government debt?
Price of new rail and ties--ridiculous! Price of new suspension and wheels for locomotives--ridiculous! Having your freight delivered by the Maumee & Western--Priceless!
This is sad, when the N&W bought the wabash they got all trackage, they couldnt show the fallen and lusterus flag a liitle pity and mercy or atleast keep the old freight F7 locos
PRRR Pioneer rails entire market capitalization is 33.50 million. The entire market cap would buy about 90 miles of new rail that will got a nightly 25 mph. So how is this robber baron in money? Pioneer Lines rail system has 26 rail operations in 13 states with over 600 miles of track. The entire market cap would only upgrade 1/7 th of the companies track. So explain the magic about who pays for the new tracks.
I know it is risky business running on a line of this stature, but how cool is it to actually see these bohemiths with this kind of tonnage meandering to and fro rocking and rolling from side to side. To me it says; go ahead, grab ahold and enjoy the ride! I love this kind of railroading, I say the rustier and more weathered the better!!!
wow. That train sure was going slow. And the amount of weeds ad grass in the tracks. I gues the rail line dosn't care about how good there company looks hu!!!
I'm glad to see they've improved a lot of their lines. Pioneer inherited this mess but instead of it ending up being abandoned they've made a nice comeback.👏👏
You got customers who are fine with slow but dependable service then slow orders don’t matter. You maintain track to the lowest standard the customer accepts. If you make good money on once-a-day service at 10 mph and the customer likes it then you really have little to worry about.
I like the emphasis on six inch space between the two rails and how every car that went over it made a thump as the steel wheel slipped into that area.
The really sad thing is there was probably somebody sitting behind a desk somewhere knowing about this thinking, "This is great! If I don't let the tracks get worse than this I can save the company 70% on maintenance costs! Woohoo, promotion here I come! Honey, pack the bags, we're going to Hawaii!"
+Mark Schmidt It's not that sad really. That track hasn't been useful to the US since the mid 60's when the Wabash RR stopped maintaining it. It's a relic from the time before the Interstate. It should be turned into a greenway or a nature way because if the RR that operates it can't maintain it then...
😁
@@Odin029 that's a pioneer line, they are rehabbing everything.....your remark is foolish to say the least and you probably complain about truck traffic too
@@Odin029 if the track is so bad they shouldn't use it. Not even once. It's just too dangerous.
@@marthas.4456 It's safer than a truck doing 70mph on the interstate. indeed, this video is showing several hundred trucks not moving on the interstate.
This is probably violating a million safety codes.
Nope. This is called FRA excepted rail. There are restrictions on how many haz-mat loads can be moved in a train. (5). A 10mph restriction is also placed on FRA excepted rail.
Did anyone else laugh when they saw "Building America" on the side of those cars?
Darren Michaelsen yes
Your glee at the percieved downfall of America can only mean that you are a Democrat..Well buddy boy America loving Republicans are in charge now and America IS healing and getting stronger..Why don't you leave and go live in someplace like Cuba or Venezuela where you would be happy?
@@aryanscience Still a piece of dogshit track though. Trump ain't Ronald Reagan's toenail.
aryanscience Sure. Once the dollar collapses.
aryanscience okay buddy Nazi. He wasn’t saying he wants to see America fall. He was laughing at the irony of a car that says “Building America” being moved over a rail like that’s in absolutely awful shape.
round-up is expensive. Several miles of weedspray cost lines thousands and thousands of dollars. Ties are over $30 each installed. It's easy to cast stones and say they don't care. But to be honest that is very unfair to the owners of this type of line who are just trying to stay in business
This line runs right by where I live
4:55 that gap in the tracks in absolutely inexcusable
Welcome to my model layout
4:55
you got the right the rail's here unstable and unreuseable
Michael Scott
OMG until I saw it I thought worst tracks are in Sri Lanka.USA needs to invest more infrastructure of roads & railroads
I live in this little town It's absolutely horrifying to me its become this neglected. Even at those sped we fear derailment
Jeez is he drivin on a track or on a dirt road?
LOL
Both
C'mon, this line is pure NOSTALGIA!!! I hate to see lines get abandoned, God bless these folks for keeping this line going, infact, I think I'll take a road trip and catch these lucky bastards operating this beautiful line!!! I'll just have to be sure to keep a safe distance....
Scary. No wonders he has to go so slow.
this is depressing how do they get away with this is it the fact their that broke or are they just tightwads somebody help me make sense of this please
Engineer must have lost a bet...even the train cars were missing wheels. They must have been stored in a rough neighborhood.
meanwhile "greedy corporate conglomerates " are sailing in their yachts, or zooming around in their private jets thinking about all the money they can swindle. God bless the working man
The owner(s) of this line were the opposite of greedy corporate conglomerates.
All that money we wasted in Iraq could have been spent on fixing this stuff..
I agree. We have had so many bad Presidents and it looks like we're to get another one. When will it ever stop. The Country is being flushed down the toilet so fast.
+T H We didn't waste money in Iraq; We spent it making enemies!
That too….
bill bob maybe the for profit model isn’t the paradigm to judge success for a mode of transportation. Take highways for instance, they never earn a profit, but are deemed a public necessity for the movement of goods, services, and people. Railroads were screwed when states barred railroads from receiving funds from internal improvement clauses, which later created highways and airports. This railroad seems to be suffering from deferred maintenance, but does not have the capital and resources to upgrade the weight of the rail, reballast the line, upgrade structures, etc.
Many Railroads have had grants, loans and subsidies going back to the beginning of railroads in 1830. The amount of miles of railroad track in usage peaked about 100 years ago. Since 2000 there is some resurgence in the USA with railroads. Old tracks that were abandoned or in ill shape are now being reused. With your "greedy corporate conglomerates" they have to do a return on investment to upgrade the rails. With the government they can fund rails to nowhere since its the publics cash.
Federal Grants. Pioneer threatened the State of Ohio that they would not provide rail service to it's customers if the State didn't pay for track upgrades. Look dude, I'm on your side. Don't get your panties in a wad.
Looks like they're going to a scrap yard. Everything is junk. Tracks and all.
Thanks airing the Outstanding vid.Derilect train track reminiscent of once thriving plabe.Bliss
Where does all the graffiti come from on these cars? I see some much of that today. Isn't there any security in rail yards? What happened to the days when every car had a road name on it and even advertising slogans?
Such a long train on such a dangerous pair of tracks.
I saw the train in Defiance from the rear and the last car was leaning so badly it looked as though it would tip over. The line actually runs into Indiana and at last look they were using the track to store cars up the line outside of Defiance. For a time the line stopped in Defiance at the CSX mainline on the west side of town it has since been reconnected to the line west.
They must have Penn Central management!
All I see is the hoghead. Where is the conductor? Did he jump of that thing a mile ago (3 hours ago) in disgust? The next time I complain about a 25 mph slow order I am going to watch this!
Lol!!!😂😂😂
Someone get the FRA! I don't even think this track meets Class 3 Standards!
Class 3 is 40 mph freight, 60 mph passenger.
That's actually a pretty good length train. Hopefully they can upgrade the line soon
My god talk about a disaster waiting to happen. Nice catch
This is almost painful to watch.
Mr. Michael Appleby, in your post you have publicly and specifically accused the owners of the line and the FRA of multiple felonies. You have also accused the state of Ohio of neglect in that they gave away money and did not follow up to see the work was completed. Hopefully those reading your BS fabrications understand no one was remotely guilty of what you accuse them of and that they recognize your post as a pathetic childish attempt to gain attention.
What an absolute embarrassment this railroad is. Some of your infrastructure in the States is archaic. 🖒
I don't know. Why are even there any steel rods to go on?
As a railroader labourer/thermite welder and maintainer up in Canada, I watch these videos and I don't even know where I would start probably rip the whole line up and rebuild the grade and then ties to new rail. But a guy has to remember this stuff takes money which alot of shortlines don't have an abundance of to spend on maintaining there track and believe me it would cost them alot of it just to repair it.
Cal Murray how you doing.
Brinkmans compensation via Google was about 700k. That would buy 2 miles of super fast 25mph rails if he paid himself zero. It would upgrade the entire Pioneer Rail's tracks in just 300 years.
If I won the power-ball and got the whole 200,000,000 dollars... I'm fixing this line!
If our president is re-elected, industry will come back to the US - - and there will be a NEED for more small branch railroads. If not, continued decline.
"Continued decline" So...are you saying that Trump's first term was a decline?
Mountain engines go faster than this. How have they not been shut down?
Huh, has to run so slow that wheelchair users are running the red light.
From the research I did this particular line is not actually in operation. It is used as storage space for railway cars.
Worst maintained? How about "unmaintained"? You'd think, at some point, the liability would outweigh any potential profits.
That can't be doing more than 10MPH at best.
10?! I'd say between 2 & 4 mph, tops!
With more sun kinks and bad winters you never know the rails could break
I know exactly were that is at I thought those tracks were abandoned
Stand near these tracks while a train passes and NOT be worried! I dare ya!
That is one of the worst looking trains I have ever seen
maybe there is a time warp of a century? The railroads "greedy corporate conglomerates " were "robber barons" coined in 1870. Railroads peaked 100 years ago and so did the track mileage and robber barons . It is only in the last decade that freight has made a decent comeback. The robber barons are in 100 year old history books. So who are the current railroad "greedy corporate conglomerates "?
it may be bad but gets a lot worse at 4:54
Before I'd take a job running a train on that track, I'd sleep under a cheap blue tarp and dive dumpsters for food. Damn!
Kevin S Says a lot about what a cowardly ass you are.
Boss302fan Eat me, troll. If you can't tell the difference between cowardice and common sense, then you shouldn't be allowed out in public without a chaperone.
By the way, it's time for you to give the computer back to your mother - it's hers anyway. She worked for it - you didn't.
+Kevin S Damn, Shut him right up........
Nothing a Sawzall and Duct Tape can't fix!
Interesting that the track is in such bad shape yet they seem to still have a good amount of tonnage to move over it. I wonder what the people served by this line must think?
Someone need to get a hold of the Federal Transportation Safety Commision
I would be embarrassed to be driving this train.......I mean really.... Lionel does it better.
notice the heavy equipment in the first view - - evidently upgrades on the way - - lots of places in US small branch RR's are COMING BACK - - - good luck
Good thing it wasn't going any faster or it would have hit the ground!
That's just no good.
Can't belief there are places like this in such disrepair...
Yeah, put a spoked wheels, a bouncy tractor and some rap and you have the real lowrider train.
They need a good remodeling with the tracks and the locomotive...
Pioneer Rails entire 2012 Revenue in 2012 was 20.359 Million dollars. Cost of revenue was 9.4 million. Net income was 0.919 million.
*IF* all that Revenue went into new track they could buy 70 miles of 25mph track. So all they need is free fuel, free repairs, free workers, free insurance at all levels!
So Experts where does the raw cash come from to pay for the rail upgrades?
Naw! Not in Indiana already. I thought Hoosiers took better care of their tracks than this. I've seen some pretty bad tracks around here, but that track needs to be condemned.
I've never seen such bad track.It looked like the train was only going about 5 miles per hr.And that 6 inch gap between those 2 rails? Unbeiievable.
How can a railroad such as this make any money? What about liability issues?? I have seen this track and it is the worst. Hard to believe that trains used to high ball it through here.
It's just a matter of time before it goes in the dirt I would think.
There may as well not be a track,it would be easier to let the loco run on the mud.
Wonder how many derailments they have in a week..? The FRA & TxDOT shut down a shortline in Texas recently for failure to maintain a crossing gate at one US highway crossing..
Looks like this line is on borrowed time... New rail cost's roughly $ 1.4 million a mile, plus any bridges & viaducts..!
Seriously dude why blow your horn, no one is going to be surprised by a train going at that speed
The ability to run a train down such track just proves how durable the railroad really is.
disaster? disaster? No. A disaster is what happens at 70mph on the freeway when truckers have an accident next to a minivan full of children. An accident here is...oh shit, let's ramp the wheels back up and keep going
what town is this in?
Those tracks are wonderful compared to here in Louisiana! Hwy 23 from Gretna to Port Sulfur there are Chemical plants and a few Warehouses and other businesses that use the train to transport! The train going down those tracks you can watch the engine and cars going up and down side to side and I can't tell you how many times train cars flip on their sides all along that hwy! Plus Central Avenue train yard always has accidents in fact 1 of the accidents is in a video on TH-cam!!! I guess because the ground is so soft because New Orleans and Metairie and all around this area was mostly Swamp land and the city streets and even the houses always need to be fixed!!! But when you add trains and the tracks and the weight you will always have problems unless you are doing maintenance constantly and none of the railroads do maintenance work constantly!!! The hwy 23 railroad tracks are the worst! The only time anyone fixes anything on those tracks are when a derailment happens then they only fix the 1 little area where the accident occurred! If you get out of your car or truck and look down the tracks the first thing to pop into your head is how in the hell do any trains stay on the tracks! But the railroad company only hauls a few cars at a time with a small switch engine and they probably do less than 5 mph!!! The bad part of the whole thing is that most of the time they are hauling deadly chemicals which would be serious because you have neighborhoods all along the hwy 23!!! I think that Louisiana has the worst train tracks in the nation!!!!
This is what we used to call a wooden axle railroad. Wonder if they get wheel slip for all the weeds. Hope a traction motor does flash over, they’ll burn the railroad down.
Couldnt they just aleast repack the ballast..even if it is a holding road it would take at least two days to do ...awesome vid.
The last time I saw something so bad was in North Korea. Not even Russia is that bad
The largest insider in Pioneer holds 62099 shares of stock. At 7.45 today that is 462k bucks. This would buy 1.4 miles of new 25mph track. That is 1/400th of the track they own.
So where do all the youtube train experts think all the raw cash is to upgrade old rails?
More taxes?
Higher Freight costs?
Giant Federal grants; ie more government debt?
I'm amazed they don't derail!
Price of new rail and ties--ridiculous!
Price of new suspension and wheels for locomotives--ridiculous!
Having your freight delivered by the Maumee & Western--Priceless!
If I had the where with all to buy this line, I wouldn't change a thing.
This is sad, when the N&W bought the wabash they got all trackage, they couldnt show the fallen and lusterus flag a liitle pity and mercy
or atleast keep the old freight F7 locos
Wow, you can hear the knuckles being shoved into one another. And what is #16, a GP10/11 rebuild?
PRRR Pioneer rails entire market capitalization is 33.50 million. The entire market cap would buy about 90 miles of new rail that will got a nightly 25 mph. So how is this robber baron in money? Pioneer Lines rail system has 26 rail operations in 13 states with over 600 miles of track. The entire market cap would only upgrade 1/7 th of the companies track. So explain the magic about who pays for the new tracks.
4:55 that gap should cause of derail.
Well, at least they don't have to worry about journals overheating. :) Seriously, best of luck to MAW. Thanks for sharing the video and the history.
Dat horn...
Terrible condition of the tracks
I think the RR Tracks in the book "Green Eggs and Ham" were in better shape.
I grew up in Toledo and I remember taking trips down here and I never remember it being that bad of track. OMG!!!
I know it is risky business running on a line of this stature, but how cool is it to actually see these bohemiths with this kind of tonnage meandering to and fro rocking and rolling from side to side. To me it says; go ahead, grab ahold and enjoy the ride! I love this kind of railroading, I say the rustier and more weathered the better!!!
Kudos to the engineer, outstanding job. To move a train on that track is nerve-wracking to say the least. Retired Engineer
wow. That train sure was going slow. And the amount of weeds ad grass in the tracks. I gues the rail line dosn't care about how good there company looks hu!!!
The head dude of Pioneer Rail could be paid zero and all the 600 miles upgraded for 200 million in how many years?
I'm glad to see they've improved a lot of their lines. Pioneer inherited this mess but instead of it ending up being abandoned they've made a nice comeback.👏👏
/watch?v=V39JFjexSUk I actually think this railroad defines disaster LOL
"Building America".
good video,and glad there is hope for the line,,i hope they pay the crew O'T for running it,
Pioneer Rail Corp's head man is one of them.
GEEZ! I THOUGHT IT WAS ON PLAIN GROUND WHEN I FIRST WATCHED THIS
so did I
This is Awesome in slow motion!!!!
.../2 ... I'm referring to the train wreck of the Town of Lac Megantic, Quebec (located north at State of NY, Vermont, N Hampshire and Maine)..
I have a BNSF track next to my property. The only well maintained, freshly painted locomotives I see are Ferromex - Mexican railroad.
You got customers who are fine with slow but dependable service then slow orders don’t matter. You maintain track to the lowest standard the customer accepts. If you make good money on once-a-day service at 10 mph and the customer likes it then you really have little to worry about.
Operation lifesaver? Yah right!