Links to Parts/Tools used in this video: Idash: amzn.to/47gPUls Stanadyne Fuel Additive: amzn.to/4eipYbH Ammonia Glass Cleaner: amzn.to/4gj2qVG Test Light: amzn.to/3AW7j7b Oscilloscope: amzn.to/3TjXXsf OEM NOx Sensors: 16-18 2.8 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/4guAbDV 16-18 2.8 Duramax DOWNSTREAM: amzn.to/3ASf1iH 19-22 2.8/3.0 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/4dZcvpy 20-23 6.6 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/3XgdCtx 20-23 6.6 Duramax DOWNSTREAM: amzn.to/3XfGFO6 I was not able to find any OEM Ford NOx Sensor on Amazon. 13-15 6.7 Cummins Downstream: amzn.to/3ZbctWU My Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/shop/repairgeek Help support the channel, buy using my Amazon links As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases and your cost is exactly the same.
Great straight forward explanation of the SCR. I've liked my 2016 Colorado diesel (118k) but more and more issues are popping up. Nice to hear some are running mostly trouble free.
As a 2017 2.8 owner (since new), I can confirm "Just delete it" isn't really an option any longer. Basically nobody will sell a delete kit to anyone in the US anymore, not since the EPA started cracking down on them. It isn't worth the multi-million dollar risk to a company to offer them. You *can* get a good aftermarket emissions-compliant tune, though, that will minimize EGR use, which reduces soot/crud in the exhaust and helps the sensor life. Those tunes use more DEF, but DEF is cheap and easy to add. (My tune is from GDE, but DD makes a good one as well.) One major issue is that the emissions-required sensors aren't covered by the emissions warranty, even though a failed sensor shuts everything down. Crazy that the OEMs can just disclaim the sensor coverage and get away with it - I'd love to see the EPA say "if it's required for the emissions, then it's covered". In 7 years I've had one emissions issue - a DEF line heater sensor, had to replace the hose/wire bundle, which cost almost $500. Still cheaper than a new car payment though.
The number of people that I've seen with a deleted 2.8 that then has some tuning problem like the "keep driving" message appear is staggering. Then they go back to try to get with the tuner only to find the guy has folded up shop and they have no support. Even GDE pulled that stuff 5 years ago when all this started hitting the fan. The larger issue that I see in the emissions space is every model year takes a different sensor part number. A 2016 2500 takes a different sensor than a 2017 2500 that is the same body style. There is no economy of scale here. I found a sensor for a cummins that was $625 plus a core charge it fit 2 model years of truck. A NOx sensor for a 16-18 2.8 is $200. The sensor for a 19-22 2.8 also fits a early 3.0 Duramax truck. The late sensor that fits multiple trucks is half the cost.
Nox sensors two and three are your known good. A two channel pico is very affordable. You can skip all that by reading the code setting criteria for this particular code though. Also, generally speaking a performance code means power and ground is okay the module just doesn't like what it's seeing. You can voltage drop the signal wire to verify wiring integrity. You can short the signal wire to reference voltage and ground using a jumper wire while monitoring scan data to verify the module is working correctly. You want to make sure there are no exhaust leaks as well. The only effective way to do that is by pressurizing the exhaust and injecting smoke/spraying with soapy water. For what it's worth, 99.9% of the time when this code sets on a Colorado it's always the nox sensor. Good video
First offer, great video describing the SCR system. I appreciate that I'm not the only one that's against the "just delete it" camp. From what I have learned in a previous job, the most common failure modes of NOx sensors are related to the ceramic components on the inside of the sensor being thermally shocked. Most of the thermal shock would be coming from the water formed in the combustion process for the first sensor and for the second sensor, the water could be also be coming the from the chemical reactions happening in the exhaust catalysts. While I know they have made improvement to the sensors for this, it is also just inherent to the sensors design and function. Some of the risk of failure can be mitigated by good sensor location in the exhaust, but ultimately, the sensor is still being placed in an extremely harsh environment. So the fact that they live as long as they do, is a testament to the amount of engineering and testing that goes into getting these sensors to work in the first place. Again, great video.
In a pinch I have used a hose clamp over the socket and it was just enough to remove a nox sensor. In my ship we get in shit for cutting the wires becuase theh usully have a 150$ core charge. Torches also help alot. When I'm diagnosing a nox. All you can check is power and ground. And if you don't have an ociliscope you can use a volt meter to see if it's getting the CAN signal. CAN low is usually 1.5-2.5 volt and CAN high is 2.5-3.5 volts. You measure from CAN high or low to ground. In most causes it's a bad sensor
Deal with NOx sensors all the time on HD trucks. Hands down best way to remove a NOx sensor for testing is Milton/LTI or other brand name "shock-it" kit that uses air hammer to remove sensor probe. While driving another good check is to let the vehicle go into a "motoring" or "overrun" condition AKA fuel cut when wheels are driving engine and both sensors should drop below 15 PPM, rear outlet taking longer but should do so after 10 secs max. Another test is force regen if able and figure out way to disable DEF dosing and sensors should read within 40 PPM of each other in last minutes of regen. I do also check them with my Picoscope for power, ground, and communication. As stated, the control of these is quite complex. The NOx sensors are more of state obsevers vs closed loop feedback. Dosing rates are typically model controlled and both Nox readings are compared to controller calculated NOx readings and readings on scan tool can be corrected readings. Thanks for videos and really enjoyed your work with LS Jr. That had to be awesome experience to work with Lake. TY.
I've replaced O2 sensors on my Toyota truck and found if you put a spray on penetrating oil on the sensor and let it sit overnight the sensors come out really easily with the O2 slotted socket without stripping the sensor. That's my experience.
I've found those O2 sockets are generally only good for installation. Usually I use a wrench to take them out, or cut the harness like you did, but I have also run hose clamps around the split sockets before if I had to.
I don’t think the de-rate is the biggest issue people have with these systems and why they delete them the real reason is because whether it’s Chevy Ford or Dodge like you said within certain variations depending on the make and model they recirculate dirty crap out of your exhaust back into usually the number seven and number eight cylinder which even if you’re the most conservative driver on the planet you end up burning up cylinder seven and eight in a lot of cases. The EPA and the manufacturers don’t care about the longevity of these engines they only care what comes out of the tailpipe and you the consumer end up paying the cost of burned up pistons and blown up engines that otherwise could’ve gone a lot more miles.
You're talking about EGR. Exhaust gas recirculation. It does exactly as you said, make the engine eat what it poops. But EGR technology is far older and more prevalent than SCR systems. Plenty of EGR equipped vehicles do not have SCR. However I've never seen an SCR equipped vehicle WITHOUT EGR.
I can relate, the same sensor has gone bad on my Cummins multiple times. Difficult to get at. Def had soot on it and wonder if the soot alone was the problem each time. Yes I used a autozone replacer or sensor, lifetime warranty and has gone bad multiple times.
My 2016 Colorado 2.8 gave me the codes P11DC and P22FE this past week. P11DC I cleared by disconnecting the battery and P22FE went away after a day on it's own. I think that NOx sensor 2 (downstream) is on its way out and I should replace it. Should I plan to replace both sensors at the same time? If I let this go would it eventually lead to a drate mode? I am worried that my scan tool might not be able to calibrate the new sensors. I don't have a real scan tool. I use an OBDLink MX+ Bluetooth Scantool
@@RepairGeek Thx! Two more questions for you. Do you recommend dielectric grease on the multi-pin connectors? Also, my downstream NOx sensor in still shipping. I might not get it before I go out of town this weekend. Right now the check engine light "fixed it self". If/when the conditions for the downstream NOx to set the check engine light come back, could this lead to a "drate mode" and leave me stranded? Or could I nurse the truck along by clearing the code and repace the NOx sensor when I am back from my trip. Any real world advice would be welcome. Thank you!
No dielectric grease. No need for it if the rubber seals on the connector are in good shape. If they're not, you'll see green puss in the NOx sensor connector. I don't know all the conditions/codes that will put the truck in derate off the top of my head. Yes, you have the potential to derate if you're having an issue with that sensor. Some codes you can't just simply clear. They are permanent codes which can only go away once the issue is fixed. The government regulated that to keep people from "just clearing the code". Will it derate? I don't have a crystal ball, it's impossible for me to know what your truck is doing. I have no idea.
Links to Parts/Tools used in this video:
Idash: amzn.to/47gPUls
Stanadyne Fuel Additive: amzn.to/4eipYbH
Ammonia Glass Cleaner: amzn.to/4gj2qVG
Test Light: amzn.to/3AW7j7b
Oscilloscope: amzn.to/3TjXXsf
OEM NOx Sensors:
16-18 2.8 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/4guAbDV
16-18 2.8 Duramax DOWNSTREAM: amzn.to/3ASf1iH
19-22 2.8/3.0 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/4dZcvpy
20-23 6.6 Duramax UPSTREAM: amzn.to/3XgdCtx
20-23 6.6 Duramax DOWNSTREAM: amzn.to/3XfGFO6
I was not able to find any OEM Ford NOx Sensor on Amazon.
13-15 6.7 Cummins Downstream: amzn.to/3ZbctWU
My Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/shop/repairgeek
Help support the channel, buy using my Amazon links
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases and your cost is exactly the same.
What scan tool are you bluetoothing threw your phone?
Best description of NOx and de-rate problems I have ever heard/seen.
Great straight forward explanation of the SCR. I've liked my 2016 Colorado diesel (118k) but more and more issues are popping up. Nice to hear some are running mostly trouble free.
This is exactly the information I was looking for. Excellent, thank you.
Fantastic video you make it so easy to actually understand what is going on keep it up
Thanks for yet another upload, I'm looking forward to watching it tomorrow morning, as it is late in the day here in Denmark.
As a 2017 2.8 owner (since new), I can confirm "Just delete it" isn't really an option any longer. Basically nobody will sell a delete kit to anyone in the US anymore, not since the EPA started cracking down on them. It isn't worth the multi-million dollar risk to a company to offer them. You *can* get a good aftermarket emissions-compliant tune, though, that will minimize EGR use, which reduces soot/crud in the exhaust and helps the sensor life. Those tunes use more DEF, but DEF is cheap and easy to add. (My tune is from GDE, but DD makes a good one as well.) One major issue is that the emissions-required sensors aren't covered by the emissions warranty, even though a failed sensor shuts everything down. Crazy that the OEMs can just disclaim the sensor coverage and get away with it - I'd love to see the EPA say "if it's required for the emissions, then it's covered". In 7 years I've had one emissions issue - a DEF line heater sensor, had to replace the hose/wire bundle, which cost almost $500. Still cheaper than a new car payment though.
The number of people that I've seen with a deleted 2.8 that then has some tuning problem like the "keep driving" message appear is staggering. Then they go back to try to get with the tuner only to find the guy has folded up shop and they have no support. Even GDE pulled that stuff 5 years ago when all this started hitting the fan.
The larger issue that I see in the emissions space is every model year takes a different sensor part number. A 2016 2500 takes a different sensor than a 2017 2500 that is the same body style. There is no economy of scale here. I found a sensor for a cummins that was $625 plus a core charge it fit 2 model years of truck. A NOx sensor for a 16-18 2.8 is $200. The sensor for a 19-22 2.8 also fits a early 3.0 Duramax truck. The late sensor that fits multiple trucks is half the cost.
Nox sensors two and three are your known good. A two channel pico is very affordable. You can skip all that by reading the code setting criteria for this particular code though. Also, generally speaking a performance code means power and ground is okay the module just doesn't like what it's seeing. You can voltage drop the signal wire to verify wiring integrity. You can short the signal wire to reference voltage and ground using a jumper wire while monitoring scan data to verify the module is working correctly. You want to make sure there are no exhaust leaks as well. The only effective way to do that is by pressurizing the exhaust and injecting smoke/spraying with soapy water.
For what it's worth, 99.9% of the time when this code sets on a Colorado it's always the nox sensor. Good video
First offer, great video describing the SCR system. I appreciate that I'm not the only one that's against the "just delete it" camp. From what I have learned in a previous job, the most common failure modes of NOx sensors are related to the ceramic components on the inside of the sensor being thermally shocked. Most of the thermal shock would be coming from the water formed in the combustion process for the first sensor and for the second sensor, the water could be also be coming the from the chemical reactions happening in the exhaust catalysts. While I know they have made improvement to the sensors for this, it is also just inherent to the sensors design and function. Some of the risk of failure can be mitigated by good sensor location in the exhaust, but ultimately, the sensor is still being placed in an extremely harsh environment. So the fact that they live as long as they do, is a testament to the amount of engineering and testing that goes into getting these sensors to work in the first place. Again, great video.
In a pinch I have used a hose clamp over the socket and it was just enough to remove a nox sensor.
In my ship we get in shit for cutting the wires becuase theh usully have a 150$ core charge.
Torches also help alot.
When I'm diagnosing a nox. All you can check is power and ground. And if you don't have an ociliscope you can use a volt meter to see if it's getting the CAN signal. CAN low is usually 1.5-2.5 volt and CAN high is 2.5-3.5 volts.
You measure from CAN high or low to ground.
In most causes it's a bad sensor
Deal with NOx sensors all the time on HD trucks. Hands down best way to remove a NOx sensor for testing is Milton/LTI or other brand name "shock-it" kit that uses air hammer to remove sensor probe. While driving another good check is to let the vehicle go into a "motoring" or "overrun" condition AKA fuel cut when wheels are driving engine and both sensors should drop below 15 PPM, rear outlet taking longer but should do so after 10 secs max. Another test is force regen if able and figure out way to disable DEF dosing and sensors should read within 40 PPM of each other in last minutes of regen. I do also check them with my Picoscope for power, ground, and communication. As stated, the control of these is quite complex. The NOx sensors are more of state obsevers vs closed loop feedback. Dosing rates are typically model controlled and both Nox readings are compared to controller calculated NOx readings and readings on scan tool can be corrected readings. Thanks for videos and really enjoyed your work with LS Jr. That had to be awesome experience to work with Lake. TY.
I've replaced O2 sensors on my Toyota truck and found if you put a spray on penetrating oil on the sensor and let it sit overnight the sensors come out really easily with the O2 slotted socket without stripping the sensor. That's my experience.
I've found those O2 sockets are generally only good for installation. Usually I use a wrench to take them out, or cut the harness like you did, but I have also run hose clamps around the split sockets before if I had to.
I don’t think the de-rate is the biggest issue people have with these systems and why they delete them the real reason is because whether it’s Chevy Ford or Dodge like you said within certain variations depending on the make and model they recirculate dirty crap out of your exhaust back into usually the number seven and number eight cylinder which even if you’re the most conservative driver on the planet you end up burning up cylinder seven and eight in a lot of cases. The EPA and the manufacturers don’t care about the longevity of these engines they only care what comes out of the tailpipe and you the consumer end up paying the cost of burned up pistons and blown up engines that otherwise could’ve gone a lot more miles.
You're talking about EGR. Exhaust gas recirculation. It does exactly as you said, make the engine eat what it poops. But EGR technology is far older and more prevalent than SCR systems. Plenty of EGR equipped vehicles do not have SCR. However I've never seen an SCR equipped vehicle WITHOUT EGR.
I can relate, the same sensor has gone bad on my Cummins multiple times. Difficult to get at. Def had soot on it and wonder if the soot alone was the problem each time. Yes I used a autozone replacer or sensor, lifetime warranty and has gone bad multiple times.
My 2016 Colorado 2.8 gave me the codes P11DC and P22FE this past week. P11DC I cleared by disconnecting the battery and P22FE went away after a day on it's own. I think that NOx sensor 2 (downstream) is on its way out and I should replace it. Should I plan to replace both sensors at the same time? If I let this go would it eventually lead to a drate mode? I am worried that my scan tool might not be able to calibrate the new sensors. I don't have a real scan tool. I use an OBDLink MX+ Bluetooth Scantool
I would just replace what you have the code for. I wouldn't worry about the upstream until you have a problem.
@@RepairGeek Thx! Two more questions for you. Do you recommend dielectric grease on the multi-pin connectors? Also, my downstream NOx sensor in still shipping. I might not get it before I go out of town this weekend. Right now the check engine light "fixed it self". If/when the conditions for the downstream NOx to set the check engine light come back, could this lead to a "drate mode" and leave me stranded? Or could I nurse the truck along by clearing the code and repace the NOx sensor when I am back from my trip. Any real world advice would be welcome. Thank you!
No dielectric grease. No need for it if the rubber seals on the connector are in good shape. If they're not, you'll see green puss in the NOx sensor connector.
I don't know all the conditions/codes that will put the truck in derate off the top of my head. Yes, you have the potential to derate if you're having an issue with that sensor. Some codes you can't just simply clear. They are permanent codes which can only go away once the issue is fixed. The government regulated that to keep people from "just clearing the code". Will it derate? I don't have a crystal ball, it's impossible for me to know what your truck is doing. I have no idea.
When I bought the autozone sensor at the time it was almost 700 back in 2022
I agree 100 hundred percent
19:32 200 bucks for 58,000 miles is .00348828 cents per mile…. Yeah it’s worth it.
Thanks for doing the math!
Also people dont talk about the down sides to def
Hose clamp on those cheap amazon sockets would have worked