Instead of rules of thumb, I suggest placing subs where they measure best. Complex interactions from various wall, ceiling, and floor boundary structure and surfaces are endless. So you've just got to experiment and measure... without ruling out any locations, corners included. I realize everyone wants quick rules of thumb of approaches to try, and those to never try. I agree, corner placement of speakers/subs are often problematic. However, there's instances whereby corner placement is ideal for acoustic performance.
I've been using corners often for years, with proper eq you get solid reinforcement from the corner... especially in homes with large room and only one sub in the budget. Also let's compare flown subs to ground stacks....oh wait, there's no comparison...
@@poserwanabe room gain is far away from quality and room-EQ should be only the last step when you are done with room acoustics and there are remaining issues you simply hear room-eq versus a clean sound especially when you are not all day long at exactly one position
@@Harald_Reindl you're exactly right, but after installing all types of systems, residential, clubs, theaters etc for over 45yrs I can tell you many times it's simply necessary to pressure the room.... peace
@@poserwanabe no, it's not! it seems so when you are not finished with room acoustics and it's possible for bass too, even in small rooms when you use the right types of absorbers with some creativity even in a living room thanks to the fact that bass is everywhere and goes through nearly anything
Dual subwoofer set-up best works when the subwoofers are placed in opposite diagonal corners, unless the room is very small, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Of course it's way easier to set up dual subwoofers on the front wall inside the front left and front right speakers, but opposite diagonal corners will have the better sound.
@@AcousticFields "Never place a subwoofer in the corner of a room. You are increasing room gain distortions with this method." Genelec: Hold my beer. Pure BS!
The room that I did the best response was putting the subwoofer in the middle of the front wall!! That's because I had a floor to ceiling modal conflict at 60hz and 120hz. Although it looked weird, the sound was amazing.
I have my system based out of a corner, where the full range speakers are off the wall and separated, but a 12” subwoofer facing into the corner. Amazing bass! I’m really surprised just how much more sound the sub has facing into that corner, as I tried the configuration many ways. This is great on a budget system, if you just have a single 100 watt subwoofer.
Quantity is not quality. You are hearing more of the room sound than you are sub sound since you are increasing the room gain by 3- 6 dB. The goal is less distortion not more.
Rule #1: your 2.1 setup should NOT sound like there is a sub attached (it should sound like an expansion of your mains) Rule #2: you should enjoy your audio.
@@AcousticFields Popular music taste is changing. What some call "room resonance" and consider to be distortion, for some other people is the perfect bass of their dreams (shaking the house).. The word "music" does not really mean the same thing for everyone. For some it matters to hear the difference between a contra-bass and a drum. For some it is just boom boom .. louder the better.
@@AcousticFields LOL. We have different definitions of room gain then. Would you consider the room gain from a live orchestra playing in a concert hall, a distortion? In that case, putting the orchestra in an anechoic chamber would be the only way to hear the undistorted sound. I've never heard room gain described as distortion.
@@joentellyes. The build up of many or any tones sounds , noises creates room energy buildup which is distortion in the space. The distortion can be pleasant or unpleasant but it Disrupts or Distorts the louder or more sounds are played at once.
if concert hall music is recorded, the recording already contains room gain from concert hall, if you add your own room gain at your room, you are listening the music, plus concert hall room gain and your own room gain on top of concert hall room gain. Therefore, room gain from your own room will be regarded as noise.
I did a semester of music production years ago and moved on to learn by myself. I know good audio when I hear it. Sometimes though I enjoy just rumbling and shaking things up. I have a giant set up in a small room. My subs are two sealed 12" 1300w rms. Very much overkill but I love not worrying about pushing them hard. I don't think I can go past 40% gain when setting them up.
I’m shocked that you don’t understand the theory about the room modes and yet you are selling products for room treatment. Primary modes have opposite phase at the opposite corner. Having four subs in the corners playing the same signal means that the modes are cancelled.
@@AcousticFields Room modes are not created by too much energy. They are resonances caused by coinciding wavelength and room dimensions. Take away the resonance and the excess energy goes away. The level of the subwoofers -one or many- are adjusted to give even response. The more subwoofers you have in a room, the less volume each is outputting. There’s no more total sound energy, it’s just distributed more evenly around the room between the subwoofers.
Dennis does not understand basic room acoustics, so your effort here is not going to change anything. Most books on acoustics provide a good overview of what modes are, and yet Dennis talks about 'air', 'it is all energy', 'the energy does not fit in the room'. Anyone with this basic knowledge about acoustics can see this, and yet people love these videos.
at minimum, I appreciate the audio levels of this video, listening to you talk on my headphones while I debate my home audio helps me make some decisions.
I have often contemplated putting the subs from my live systems in the corners of my mix room, but attaching a variable resistor or reactive load to them instead of a signal. My theory is to see if they will attenuate their tuned cabinet frequency. I would love your prediction or thoughts on the experiment.
Once the energy leaves the speaker, it enters and becomes subject to the domain of the room. The energy ownership title has now changed from speaker to room ownership. The speaker has relinquished all rights with the new ownership change.
@@AcousticFields I am referring to a passive speaker cabinet acting as a diaphragmatic absorber. Wouldn't the pressure in the room move the driver and generate a voltage from the coil. If the correct resistor was placed across the coil it would turn the voltage into heat right?
Isnt the theory with corner placement is to excite the nodes / peak pressure to then apply automatic room correction to smooth out the eq response and time align phase? Its cheaper and more convenient for most people to dump and forget and use eq than to spend a huge sum of money and occupy needed space with bass absorbers. I appreciate your method has better results and is some what niche however the trend is most people want a simple life and easy wins. Imo, there is no such thing as a right / wrong way to do something. Just different levels of madness. 🤪
No simple life and easy win when it comes to small room acoustics. If your goal is to hear everything in the recording, you must take many steps and just as important those steps must be taken in the proper order or sequence. What cost nothing is worth nothing.
The goal is a flatter frequency response to improve overall room resolution. Electronic processing can lower amplitude at different frequencies. However, it can not do it in a way that improves overall resolution at all frequencies. We are all about total solutions, not bandaids.
Flame me all you want, but I've tried to put my sub all over my room. Middle, centered against a wall, different corners. No matter where I put it, the bass sucked in the "sweet spot" for the other surround and main LR speakers. Little he said made any sense to me. A 18" 1000 watt sub in a closet? Ya, agree there. But 2 15's in my Yugo is just fine! LOL. I have an 18" THX Altec powered sub in a corner in the front wall where the main, center, and TV are. It sounds as smooth as a baby's butt as long as I'm not in one of the null zones. I believe that only in a huge ass room, like a 4 car garage with 10 foot ceiling, you may get an almost uniform clean low end w/a sub up against the back wall in the center. I've done it.
You can not use a sound producing device, especially a sub woofer, to correct for poor room acoustics. You are chasing your tail and running in circles.
Good day. Is there a ratio for room size to driver size? I'm interested in adding a subwoofer to my home studio setup. The sub I'm researching has no bass ports.
hey! please make a video about this: my room is not 100% symmetrical,so only one of my corners has a big bass buildup. this is my backwall on 42hz. I have no idea what to do,because I think the energy from the other corner is also building up there
You must use the required amount of surface area coverage on each wall. It is the complete wall surface area that is causing your issues. For this frequency and amplitude issue, you will need our Carbon Panel. www.acousticfields.com/product/carbon-panel/ Most wall surfaces in small rooms take 4-5 units to treat. You must also treat the partner in crime which is the opposite wall. Remember that room pressure build up is produced at a minimum by two walls not two parallel corners.
I’m considering buying a Lyngdorf MP-40. In the manual it tells you to place the subs in the front corners and let Room Perfect (Room Correction ) do the rest. Then I see this…it’s so frustrating because you don’t know what to believe.
What causes low frequency issues within small rooms? It is the dimensions of the room. Certain energy will fit within the given dimensions and certain, usually lower frequencies, will not. The room modal issues are produced by excess energy that doesn't fit within the room to begin with. How can adding more energy into a problem that is produced by too much energy to begin with? It can to a point but the quality in sound is not there. It is quantity, not quality. A good sub today is at least 2.5K. With 4 you are at 10 K. It is best to treat the room with the 10 K and have just one sub. A single sub produces more energy than your room can ever handle. You are just not hearing that single sub correctly because the room will not let you. If you take the room out of the equation with proper treatment, you hear more with less energy.
I have a Lyngdorf 40 and have placed 2 subs just in front of the corners. Crossover is at 50 Hz. They sound great. Did you go down this route and, if so, what is your experience?
I corner load my HSU sub and place the other HSU sub nearfield and that's the only way I can remove the low frequency nodes. I get flat in room response down to 12.5 HZ and EQ the peaks. What is wrong with room gain?
no quality, different behavior all over the room when you are not always on the same place - the EQ should be the very last step to fix remaining issues *after* room acoustics
@@Harald_Reindl Hmm, I understand 'quality' is important, but how do you quantify that? How is that defined? Distortion? Smoothness of frequency response? The bass does change depending on where you are but only in locations that aren't optimal for listening to my mains anyway.
Hopefull you read this Acoustic field. I have a 24 x36 basement. My issue is i have a drywalled stair case coming down about into the center of the room. I have a pb16 and a pb2000 svs sub. I mostly listen to musice 95%. Id like to have bass in all parts of this room as there is a bar at one end and a game room at the other. What would be your suggestion. Ive split them up to this put. One at the end of the room and the other at the other end. Unfortunently I have put them in the corners lol I will change that now.
Placing subwoofers in any position within the room requires that there be the proper rates and levels of absorption to deal with lower frequency unwanted modal pressures.
My dad has his sub in a corner. I shake my head every time I walk by...🤦 Thanks for the vid Dennis! Is there a general rule of proportion for matching driver size and room volume for a 2-ch setup?
Start with it 12" off the floor and then try 24". Keep it away from the floor, walls, and ceiling. We have 15' ceilings in our studios and our subs are 40" off the floor.
What about setting yours subwoofers (dual) on the back wall? Pretty much behind you.. unfortunately I don’t have space upfront to place them. It’s either back/front corner or back wall (not in corner) thanks!!!
Don't ask me. Ask your room. It will tell you everything about itself. What are the frequencies and amplitudes of those frequencies that will be located along the back wall? Are they the same frequencies that the sub will produce? If so, you will be creating more distortion.
It depends on many variables. What is room size and usage? What are the treatment rates and levels of absorption within the room? What is the ceiling height?
I liked that, Thanks, I saw the other video going through the older ones. I am almost caught up on all the Acustic Field's Video's. It's alot to digest even for those in the Hobby for Decades. But it is the Next Level for not only those working and mixing but for the Audiophile also. And as mentioned, when your into the high dollar Equipment, it's alot less expensive to just treat the room.
The room is at least 50% of what you hear. You do not have a choice. With a 50% contribution to the overall sound presentation value, you have to treat if you have any quality sonic strategy in mind. You must treat the room. It should be given a first priority. It should be treat the room before you buy any gear.
Rel advices to set the sub in the corner. I found it strange, too. They say in this way the waves have the most distance to travel to the the next wall. But it rly works.
@@AcousticFields in theory u are absolutely right. I have bought a rel s/812 and placed it "normal" first. That was ok. Then I tried corner placement and the sub became louder, yes. But the sub goes deeper, too And is tighter. So I ended up with corner placement and adjusted the volume (low level) on the sub (4 clicks lower). In my case this was the best result, but might not work with every brand/room
Hi Mr Foley, what about the Swarm LeJeune/ Geddes method of putting 4 subs randomly with one of them ( the one farest from the listening position) phase inverted in the corner. What,s your thoughts on it!
If all the room modes end up in the corners, isn’t it advantageous to place bass traps there? In your corner bass trap video you indicate that they aren’t very effective because you’re only treating a small percentage of the total room surface area. That is correct, but based on what you say in both of the corner-loaded subs videos, it seems the corners are the *most important* area to place low frequency absorption.
Technically, all modes end in the corners, but not all amplitudes. You must treat the greatest strength modes which occur between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners. This is another example of the industy marketing half truths.
They do this because people want quantity not quality. This type of thinking Placing low frequency sources in corners produces 3-6 dB in room gain which is distortion that produces a muddy sound with no definition or seperation in certain octave bands. The room gain produces more energy but that energy is a combination of room sound and sub sound. To achive a tight clean low frequency in your room keep all subs away from walls. To increase resolution, treat the room properly with the proper low frequency treatment.
Please can someone guide what driver size is idea for room sizes and link or calculation. I have a 16ft wide and 28ft depth with 12ft height and have 2 10” peerless XLS sealed sub on miniDSP and Hypex I feel I need more pressure especially when I listen at low volume at night Thank You
You do not need more pressure. Excess pressure is the reason you are not hearing everything and thus want more energy. You can not use more energy to treat a problem that is caused by too much energy in the first place. You need to reduce the existing pressure within your room through proper treatment in order to hear more.
@@AcousticFields wow didn’t know that I need treatment to handle pressure was seeing a REL video where he talks of subwoofer stacking like array to get more pressure
Hey I'm curious to know, are you against tactile bass ?? Because some scenes like gunshots, bomb blasts, dinosaur foot steps etc gives great movie experience when there is a good tactile responce that you can feel through the couch. And also chest kick in some movies. If you are not adding more energy to the room, we can't get tactile feel. What's your opinion on this ??
I am against gimmicks that pretend to take the place of a well treated and designed room. Low frequency energy is felt not heard. If these devices produce the tactile experience you desire than mission accomplished. However, once your room is treated to resolve low frequency energy down to . .5 dB, the tactile experience is already there is the oscillating waveform that moves through your room. I gurantee you that feeling of the wave moving through the room is greater than any vibration generating device. There is no free ride when it comes to acoustics.
@@AcousticFields first of all thanks for the reply 😊...I really appreciate you are a strong supporter of QUALITY not QUANTITY. 👍👍 Currently I'm using two 18" diy subs in a medium sized hall. For placement and alignment, I did whatever i can using REW. To get tactile feel, I had to increase the SPL, and it becomes painful on ears. Then I placed one sub "very near field" just few inches behind the couch. Now i get tonns of tactile feel even at low SPL. For movies it's awesome. For music, in terms of transient responce, it's neither very bad nor very great. It's just ok. I have to build bass traps targetting some specific room modes yet. Anyway ..all your videos are very enjoyable 😊😊😊👍👍 keep up the great work !!!!
In one video you said that putting treatment in corners was nonsense. This video says that all room modes end in corners. So why is it nonsense to treat corners?
It is nonsense to treat corners and call it a solution to the problem. Since the defintion of an axial mode is unwanted lower frequency pressure between two parallel walls not two parallel corners. Treating the corners is another industry bandaid. Spend your acoustical dollars treating the complete problem. In small room acoustics, nothing is easy. You must develop a strategy and apply the appropriate tactics. Corner treatments are a tactic without a strategy.
So many sub choices out there, REL seem to have simple integration and their size is perfect. Right now a bunch of youtubers are touting the Speedwoofer 10s and 12s as best performance to value, although the 12s is gigantic. Then there's Hsu and SVS....🤔🤷♂️
The room does not care what the sub manufacture's name is. Only the buyer does. The room only sees energy. Choose a sub that has speed, proper driver output to mat ch room size and room volume along with a solid cabinet design. The sound from your sub contains three variables. You have the driver speed, the electronics, and the cabinet. You would be amazed at how much cabinet vibrations contribute to the overall sub sound.
Now I have to dig into sub placement, because mine is in the corner, and that is the only place in the room where it makes good sound. Anyway, I'd like to get another sub, and have it on the other side. I just feel where the sub is, so I will balance it out.
Your room has enough energy with one subwoofer. You need to treat the issues within your room below 100 Hz. so you can hear more of the sound from a single sound.
Isn't it easier to place the sub in your listening position... then you wander around on the floor to find the sound that works. That is where the sub goes and hopefully it is in a good spot for the room.
This is not a good start point for this process. Elevate the sub off the floor and place it on casters so it can be easility moved. Place in room center. Move in one foot increments in one direction at a time. Repeat process for another direction. Spend time listening to your music sources between sub moves. Sometimes you will know immediately, sometimes it will take a few songs. To avoid all of this, treat your room so it is pressure balanced. With a pressure balanced room, the sub will sound good anywhere within the room. To aid this tuning process, our sub platforms are on wheels. www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
A better approach is to use our subwoofer platform which elevates, attenuates, and isolates floor to sub contact. All of our platforms are on casters which allows them to be easily positioned and just as important moved easily for room tuning.
@@carlos_al I was actually joking. I don't have one. I wouldn't buy a sub unless it had DSP capabilities to align phase and crossover with my monitors. Until then, I'll stick with mhy HEDD 07 mk which go down to 40 hz. What application are you using a sub for?
@@dougleydorite i don't know what you mean by application but i have a yamaha A-S501 amp, Klipsch RP600M, red Dragonfly, playing music out of my laptop through soptify and itunes. i know i must be doing something wrong because i like my sound but i'm not fulfilled. i welcome tips and suggestions!
Yes, most speakers are full range today and produce more than enough low frequency content. When you turned your sub off, you reduced the pressure within the room and thus reduced the modal impacts which allowed you to hear more of the low's.
Better crossovers will have minimal impact on the modal pressure issues within a room. The room dimensions determine the low frequency issues. Placing less energy at certain frequencies will have an impact but only at those frequencies. Its best to treat the room for all low frequency issues and then you don't have to play cat and mouse with room modes. You can treat the complete room for all frequency issues for the costs of two subs.
So why did Electro Voice, Klipsch and JBL, etc. design speakers specifically for corner placement?. The EV Regency III and Klipschorn actually use the walls of a corner as part of the folded horn design. They do need a large room to sound good. I used to have an EV Regency III with an EV 18" in it. I just bought a JBL Control SB-2 subwoofer which has a 10" dual voice coil driver and is a slot loaded, vented bandpass design. It is triangular and made to gain full efficiency in a corner either on the floor or ceiling. The efficiency is less when placed in other locations. They came with mounts for corner placement between floor and ceiling or on a wall for commercial applications. So far I have it away from a wall or corner and is still fairly efficient. I have yet to try different placements. I have either stone or concrete walls and floor with an acoustic tile ceiling, and a unique room, so a different situation than most.
@@grob318 honestly if I would like them I would order them and case closed but I don't want speakers working with room gain and distortion - I prefer controlled quality down to volume levels which won't work if you have a cold because of too loud breathing noises besides the quality problem klipsch speakers are ugly like hell and won't fit anyways in my living room instead waste that much money for speakers invest it in room acoustic and steakhouses
I have nowhere near the knowledge of Dennis, but I think you would run into serious phase issues unless you have a massive room. Also to be small enough to add multiple subs and not "overfill" your room, those drivers would probably get too small to accurately produce real sub frequencies anyway.
@@jacobwhite936 that's what dsp is for, timing alignment and volume is a solved problem! and that small speakers can't produce low frequencies is nonsense given that headphones exists
All signal processing has its own electronic signature which is reflected within the mix. This is the reason most music today has lost its soul. There is too much processing. You can bend the laws of physics but you can not break them.
If room resolution is your goal, you must choose a sub that will contribute to that goal with balanced inputs and outputs along with proper cabinet construction and electronic and driver quality..
Stacking of subs is a great con. Firstly, in the concert industry there is no line array subs. It’s never done. Secondly, you get 6 subs stacked up in 2 columns and then use them in low volume for ‘better bass’. Ratio of 6 subs to 2 stand mount speakers. 🤣😂🤣😂
@@Oneness100 … ok you got me there 😬 but it’s not x6 subs to x2 stand mount where you dish out $15k to only play the subs at a lower end of their capability.
The corners have been PROVEN to even out modes. This is not new. I also have been doing HT and audio for almost 30 years. Every time it eas better or as good in the corner than most other positions. You are enamored with your own intelligence. It does not produce more distortion, it evens out the modes better.
The corner issues are created by the two walls that produce the corners. If you treat the walls, the corner issues disappear. After 30 years, I am surprised you didn't figure that one out.
Ears are a good start. However, you need to measure since your ears do not see well. Once you measure and fix, your ears will thank you with a new reference in sound quality.
If you’re a broke person like me the best option is just to place your speakers where it sounds the best the most natural do you want your speakers not to sound like speakers do you want your speakers to sound like the room if you’re subwoofer sounds their best in the corners if that’s where they sound the most natural that’s where they go if your main speakers sound their best up against the wall that’s why you place them if your speakers sound the best when you pull them out into the room that’s where you placed in your room dictates where your speakers go not everybody’s got Tens of thousands of dollars to do what is the golden standard sometimes you just Gotta do what you Gotta do
Placing your speakers in the corners of your room will not produce a natural sound. It will be a sound that is composed of room gain which is distortion. There is nothing "natural" about room distortion. The goal is less room distortion.
@@AcousticFields The goal is less distortion. Ask Paul klipsch himself if he was alive the first high Fidelity speakers were corner loaded obviously you don’t know the history of audio
I have 9 subs in my home theater setup (7 passive 2 active). I have 5 passives in one corner, and the SQ and SPL are incredible. I challenge any naysayers to listen to my setup, and feel the phlegm clear from your throat, and a 360° air massage from the sound pressure level. Peace
Instead of rules of thumb, I suggest placing subs where they measure best.
Complex interactions from various wall, ceiling, and floor boundary structure and surfaces are endless. So you've just got to experiment and measure... without ruling out any locations, corners included.
I realize everyone wants quick rules of thumb of approaches to try, and those to never try.
I agree, corner placement of speakers/subs are often problematic. However, there's instances whereby corner placement is ideal for acoustic performance.
I've been using corners often for years, with proper eq you get solid reinforcement from the corner... especially in homes with large room and only one sub in the budget.
Also let's compare flown subs to ground stacks....oh wait, there's no comparison...
@@poserwanabe room gain is far away from quality and room-EQ should be only the last step when you are done with room acoustics and there are remaining issues
you simply hear room-eq versus a clean sound especially when you are not all day long at exactly one position
@@Harald_Reindl you're exactly right, but after installing all types of systems, residential, clubs, theaters etc for over 45yrs I can tell you many times it's simply necessary to pressure the room.... peace
@@poserwanabe no, it's not! it seems so when you are not finished with room acoustics and it's possible for bass too, even in small rooms when you use the right types of absorbers
with some creativity even in a living room thanks to the fact that bass is everywhere and goes through nearly anything
@@Harald_Reindl ok, thanks
Dual subwoofer set-up best works when the subwoofers are placed in opposite diagonal corners, unless the room is very small, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Of course it's way easier to set up dual subwoofers on the front wall inside the front left and front right speakers, but opposite diagonal corners will have the better sound.
Never place a subwoofer in the corner of a room. You are increasing room gain distortions with this method.
@@AcousticFields Have two subwoofers in opposite corners of my room and enjoying it for years. Thank you.
@@AcousticFields
"Never place a subwoofer in the corner of a room. You are increasing room gain distortions with this method."
Genelec: Hold my beer. Pure BS!
@@deepanmurugan467 Move them away from boundary surfaces. Listen to the increased full range sound qulaity which contains less room sound.
Try both subwoofers in one corner together thank me later
The room that I did the best response was putting the subwoofer in the middle of the front wall!! That's because I had a floor to ceiling modal conflict at 60hz and 120hz. Although it looked weird, the sound was amazing.
Always locate a sound proucing instrument away from the room boundary surfaces.
I have my system based out of a corner, where the full range speakers are off the wall and separated, but a 12” subwoofer facing into the corner. Amazing bass! I’m really surprised just how much more sound the sub has facing into that corner, as I tried the configuration many ways. This is great on a budget system, if you just have a single 100 watt subwoofer.
Quantity is not quality. You are hearing more of the room sound than you are sub sound since you are increasing the room gain by 3- 6 dB. The goal is less distortion not more.
@@AcousticFields I just plugged in my KRK 10s and placing it in the corner of the room turned way down sounds quite amazing...
Rule #1: your 2.1 setup should NOT sound like there is a sub attached (it should sound like an expansion of your mains)
Rule #2: you should enjoy your audio.
You are losing tone and pitch. The corner room gain smothers both.
@@AcousticFields Popular music taste is changing.
What some call "room resonance" and consider to be distortion, for some other people is the perfect bass of their dreams (shaking the house)..
The word "music" does not really mean the same thing for everyone.
For some it matters to hear the difference between a contra-bass and a drum. For some it is just boom boom .. louder the better.
Since when does room gain = distortion?
Room gain is always distortion.
@@AcousticFields LOL. We have different definitions of room gain then. Would you consider the room gain from a live orchestra playing in a concert hall, a distortion? In that case, putting the orchestra in an anechoic chamber would be the only way to hear the undistorted sound. I've never heard room gain described as distortion.
Gain or saturation in any scenario is distortion in wave forms . Gain saturation is sound pressure buildup with out release that causes distortion .
@@joentellyes. The build up of many or any tones sounds , noises creates room energy buildup which is distortion in the space. The distortion can be pleasant or unpleasant but it Disrupts or Distorts the louder or more sounds are played at once.
if concert hall music is recorded, the recording already contains room gain from concert hall, if you add your own room gain at your room, you are listening the music, plus concert hall room gain and your own room gain on top of concert hall room gain. Therefore, room gain from your own room will be regarded as noise.
I did a semester of music production years ago and moved on to learn by myself. I know good audio when I hear it. Sometimes though I enjoy just rumbling and shaking things up. I have a giant set up in a small room. My subs are two sealed 12" 1300w rms. Very much overkill but I love not worrying about pushing them hard. I don't think I can go past 40% gain when setting them up.
Your room size determines how they will sound.
@@AcousticFields Yes of course! Everything in and about the room will determine the overall sound quality.
I’m shocked that you don’t understand the theory about the room modes and yet you are selling products for room treatment.
Primary modes have opposite phase at the opposite corner. Having four subs in the corners playing the same signal means that the modes are cancelled.
Nonsense. Placing more energy within a room to fix problems that are produced by too much energy to start with is not the direction to go.
@@AcousticFields Room modes are not created by too much energy. They are resonances caused by coinciding wavelength and room dimensions. Take away the resonance and the excess energy goes away. The level of the subwoofers -one or many- are adjusted to give even response. The more subwoofers you have in a room, the less volume each is outputting. There’s no more total sound energy, it’s just distributed more evenly around the room between the subwoofers.
@@jyrkih6960 Exactly.
@@jyrkih6960 Are you suggesting two smaller subwoofers produce the same wave as one larger subwoofer?
Dennis does not understand basic room acoustics, so your effort here is not going to change anything. Most books on acoustics provide a good overview of what modes are, and yet Dennis talks about 'air', 'it is all energy', 'the energy does not fit in the room'. Anyone with this basic knowledge about acoustics can see this, and yet people love these videos.
at minimum, I appreciate the audio levels of this video, listening to you talk on my headphones while I debate my home audio helps me make some decisions.
What did you learn from it?
I have often contemplated putting the subs from my live systems in the corners of my mix room, but attaching a variable resistor or reactive load to them instead of a signal. My theory is to see if they will attenuate their tuned cabinet frequency. I would love your prediction or thoughts on the experiment.
Once the energy leaves the speaker, it enters and becomes subject to the domain of the room. The energy ownership title has now changed from speaker to room ownership. The speaker has relinquished all rights with the new ownership change.
@@AcousticFields I am referring to a passive speaker cabinet acting as a diaphragmatic absorber. Wouldn't the pressure in the room move the driver and generate a voltage from the coil. If the correct resistor was placed across the coil it would turn the voltage into heat right?
@@jacobwhite936 wat
@@jonathanharris185 Basically using the speaker in reverse.
Isnt the theory with corner placement is to excite the nodes / peak pressure to then apply automatic room correction to smooth out the eq response and time align phase?
Its cheaper and more convenient for most people to dump and forget and use eq than to spend a huge sum of money and occupy needed space with bass absorbers.
I appreciate your method has better results and is some what niche however the trend is most people want a simple life and easy wins.
Imo, there is no such thing as a right / wrong way to do something. Just different levels of madness. 🤪
No simple life and easy win when it comes to small room acoustics. If your goal is to hear everything in the recording, you must take many steps and just as important those steps must be taken in the proper order or sequence. What cost nothing is worth nothing.
@@AcousticFields Sometimes, what costs a lot is worth nothing.
@@Seabass901 Elevate your understanding of our test results. Compare them to other companies. You will have your answers.
The goal is a flatter frequency response to improve overall room resolution. Electronic processing can lower amplitude at different frequencies. However, it can not do it in a way that improves overall resolution at all frequencies. We are all about total solutions, not bandaids.
@@AcousticFields I was making a joke. I guess that didn't come across. lol
putting it on a dolly to roll it around is brilliant.
Units were designed that way due to their weight and size.
Flame me all you want, but I've tried to put my sub all over my room. Middle, centered against a wall, different corners. No matter where I put it, the bass sucked in the "sweet spot" for the other surround and main LR speakers. Little he said made any sense to me. A 18" 1000 watt sub in a closet? Ya, agree there. But 2 15's in my Yugo is just fine! LOL. I have an 18" THX Altec powered sub in a corner in the front wall where the main, center, and TV are. It sounds as smooth as a baby's butt as long as I'm not in one of the null zones. I believe that only in a huge ass room, like a 4 car garage with 10 foot ceiling, you may get an almost uniform clean low end w/a sub up against the back wall in the center. I've done it.
You can not use a sound producing device, especially a sub woofer, to correct for poor room acoustics. You are chasing your tail and running in circles.
Good day. Is there a ratio for room size to driver size? I'm interested in adding a subwoofer to my home studio setup. The sub I'm researching has no bass ports.
What is the size of your room? What SPL levels will you be listening at?
@@AcousticFields Good day. The room measures by feet at 9Wx11Lx8H. I listen to my mix between 65-86db.
hey! please make a video about this: my room is not 100% symmetrical,so only one of my corners has a big bass buildup. this is my backwall on 42hz. I have no idea what to do,because I think the energy from the other corner is also building up there
You must use the required amount of surface area coverage on each wall. It is the complete wall surface area that is causing your issues. For this frequency and amplitude issue, you will need our Carbon Panel. www.acousticfields.com/product/carbon-panel/ Most wall surfaces in small rooms take 4-5 units to treat. You must also treat the partner in crime which is the opposite wall. Remember that room pressure build up is produced at a minimum by two walls not two parallel corners.
@@AcousticFields thank you!
Great teaching! So please, what will the size be for a sealed 12”?? I don’t have the room size, yet. Moving soon.
You can view the manufacturers product specifications on their home pages.
I’m considering buying a Lyngdorf MP-40. In the manual it tells you to place the subs in the front corners and let Room Perfect (Room Correction ) do the rest. Then I see this…it’s so frustrating because you don’t know what to believe.
What causes low frequency issues within small rooms? It is the dimensions of the room. Certain energy will fit within the given dimensions and certain, usually lower frequencies, will not. The room modal issues are produced by excess energy that doesn't fit within the room to begin with. How can adding more energy into a problem that is produced by too much energy to begin with? It can to a point but the quality in sound is not there. It is quantity, not quality. A good sub today is at least 2.5K. With 4 you are at 10 K. It is best to treat the room with the 10 K and have just one sub. A single sub produces more energy than your room can ever handle. You are just not hearing that single sub correctly because the room will not let you. If you take the room out of the equation with proper treatment, you hear more with less energy.
Trust Lyngdorf. They explain the reasoning, as many other comments in this video that contradict it.
I have a Lyngdorf 40 and have placed 2 subs just in front of the corners. Crossover is at 50 Hz. They sound great. Did you go down this route and, if so, what is your experience?
@@Salmonad yessir I own the MP-40. I’ve had dual subs front corners and they sound great!
I corner load my HSU sub and place the other HSU sub nearfield and that's the only way I can remove the low frequency nodes. I get flat in room response down to 12.5 HZ and EQ the peaks. What is wrong with room gain?
no quality, different behavior all over the room when you are not always on the same place - the EQ should be the very last step to fix remaining issues *after* room acoustics
@@Harald_Reindl Hmm, I understand 'quality' is important, but how do you quantify that? How is that defined? Distortion? Smoothness of frequency response? The bass does change depending on where you are but only in locations that aren't optimal for listening to my mains anyway.
@@Dawood4 reverberation time, punch, timing, accuracy and no in a good setup bass don't change just because you moved your head
Room gain is room distortion. The goal must be to minimize room distortion.
Hopefull you read this Acoustic field. I have a 24 x36 basement. My issue is i have a drywalled stair case coming down about into the center of the room. I have a pb16 and a pb2000 svs sub. I mostly listen to musice 95%. Id like to have bass in all parts of this room as there is a bar at one end and a game room at the other. What would be your suggestion. Ive split them up to this put. One at the end of the room and the other at the other end. Unfortunently I have put them in the corners lol I will change that now.
Placing subwoofers in any position within the room requires that there be the proper rates and levels of absorption to deal with lower frequency unwanted modal pressures.
My dad has his sub in a corner. I shake my head every time I walk by...🤦
Thanks for the vid Dennis!
Is there a general rule of proportion for matching driver size and room volume for a 2-ch setup?
There are guidelines based upon room volume and usage.
Thank you for this great session. Can I keep the sub woofer above a 110 inch screen?
Start with it 12" off the floor and then try 24". Keep it away from the floor, walls, and ceiling. We have 15' ceilings in our studios and our subs are 40" off the floor.
What about setting yours subwoofers (dual) on the back wall? Pretty much behind you.. unfortunately I don’t have space upfront to place them. It’s either back/front corner or back wall (not in corner) thanks!!!
Don't ask me. Ask your room. It will tell you everything about itself. What are the frequencies and amplitudes of those frequencies that will be located along the back wall? Are they the same frequencies that the sub will produce? If so, you will be creating more distortion.
do you recommend 1 or 2 subwoofers in a big room ? (I want to play under 80hz with them).
It depends on many variables. What is room size and usage? What are the treatment rates and levels of absorption within the room? What is the ceiling height?
@@AcousticFields 150square meter, 7meter in height (gallery). No treatment yet.
I liked that, Thanks, I saw the other video going through the older ones.
I am almost caught up on all the Acustic Field's Video's. It's alot to digest even for those in the Hobby for Decades. But it is the Next Level for not only those working and mixing but for the Audiophile also. And as mentioned, when your into the high dollar Equipment, it's alot less expensive to just treat the room.
The room is at least 50% of what you hear. You do not have a choice. With a 50% contribution to the overall sound presentation value, you have to treat if you have any quality sonic strategy in mind. You must treat the room. It should be given a first priority. It should be treat the room before you buy any gear.
Rel advices to set the sub in the corner. I found it strange, too. They say in this way the waves have the most distance to travel to the the next wall. But it rly works.
Placing the sub in the corner adds 3 - 6 dB of room distortion. It is quantity not quality.
@@AcousticFields in theory u are absolutely right. I have bought a rel s/812 and placed it "normal" first. That was ok. Then I tried corner placement and the sub became louder, yes. But the sub goes deeper, too And is tighter. So I ended up with corner placement and adjusted the volume (low level) on the sub (4 clicks lower). In my case this was the best result, but might not work with every brand/room
Hi Mr Foley, what about the Swarm LeJeune/ Geddes method of putting 4 subs randomly with one of them ( the one farest from the listening position) phase inverted in the corner. What,s your thoughts on it!
Spending too much money for managing below 100 Hz.
If all the room modes end up in the corners, isn’t it advantageous to place bass traps there? In your corner bass trap video you indicate that they aren’t very effective because you’re only treating a small percentage of the total room surface area. That is correct, but based on what you say in both of the corner-loaded subs videos, it seems the corners are the *most important* area to place low frequency absorption.
Technically, all modes end in the corners, but not all amplitudes. You must treat the greatest strength modes which occur between two parallel walls, not two parallel corners. This is another example of the industy marketing half truths.
Was looking at REL subs on Amazon, REL recommends placing their subs in the corner 😀
They do this because people want quantity not quality. This type of thinking Placing low frequency sources in corners produces 3-6 dB in room gain which is distortion that produces a muddy sound with no definition or seperation in certain octave bands. The room gain
produces more energy but that energy is a combination of room sound and sub sound. To achive a tight clean low frequency in your room keep all subs away from walls. To increase resolution, treat the room properly with the proper low frequency treatment.
Please can someone guide what driver size is idea for room sizes and link or calculation. I have a 16ft wide and 28ft depth with 12ft height and have 2 10” peerless XLS sealed sub on miniDSP and Hypex I feel I need more pressure especially when I listen at low volume at night Thank You
You do not need more pressure. Excess pressure is the reason you are not hearing everything and thus want more energy. You can not use more energy to treat a problem that is caused by too much energy in the first place. You need to reduce the existing pressure within your room through proper treatment in order to hear more.
@@AcousticFields wow didn’t know that I need treatment to handle pressure was seeing a REL video where he talks of subwoofer stacking like array to get more pressure
Hey I'm curious to know, are you against tactile bass ?? Because some scenes like gunshots, bomb blasts, dinosaur foot steps etc gives great movie experience when there is a good tactile responce that you can feel through the couch. And also chest kick in some movies. If you are not adding more energy to the room, we can't get tactile feel. What's your opinion on this ??
I am against gimmicks that pretend to take the place of a well treated and designed room. Low frequency energy is felt not heard. If these devices produce the tactile experience you desire than mission accomplished. However, once your room is treated to resolve low frequency energy down to . .5 dB, the tactile experience is already there is the oscillating waveform that moves through your room. I gurantee you that feeling of the wave moving through the room is greater than any vibration generating device. There is no free ride when it comes to acoustics.
@@AcousticFields first of all thanks for the reply 😊...I really appreciate you are a strong supporter of QUALITY not QUANTITY. 👍👍 Currently I'm using two 18" diy subs in a medium sized hall. For placement and alignment, I did whatever i can using REW. To get tactile feel, I had to increase the SPL, and it becomes painful on ears. Then I placed one sub "very near field" just few inches behind the couch. Now i get tonns of tactile feel even at low SPL. For movies it's awesome. For music, in terms of transient responce, it's neither very bad nor very great. It's just ok. I have to build bass traps targetting some specific room modes yet.
Anyway ..all your videos are very enjoyable 😊😊😊👍👍 keep up the great work !!!!
In one video you said that putting treatment in corners was nonsense. This video says that all room modes end in corners. So why is it nonsense to treat corners?
It is nonsense to treat corners and call it a solution to the problem. Since the defintion of an axial mode is unwanted lower frequency pressure between two parallel walls not two parallel corners. Treating the corners is another industry bandaid. Spend your acoustical dollars treating the complete problem. In small room acoustics, nothing is easy. You must develop a strategy and apply the appropriate tactics. Corner treatments are a tactic without a strategy.
So many sub choices out there, REL seem to have simple integration and their size is perfect. Right now a bunch of youtubers are touting the Speedwoofer 10s and 12s as best performance to value, although the 12s is gigantic. Then there's Hsu and SVS....🤔🤷♂️
The room does not care what the sub manufacture's name is. Only the buyer does. The room only sees energy. Choose a sub that has speed, proper driver output to mat ch room size and room volume along with a solid cabinet design. The sound from your sub contains three variables. You have the driver speed, the electronics, and the cabinet. You would be amazed at how much cabinet vibrations contribute to the overall sub sound.
So if I dont put the sub in the corner like Rel have suggested, where is a good starting point? 🤔
Start in room center and move left and right forward and back.
For my system I'm going to the near field listening idea...my room is about .maybe 15 by 15...what can anyone suggest for my size of a living room?
Fill out the info in this link. Schedule a time slot to speak after submitting data.
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
But what about the Klipsch CORNER Horn! THOSE Sound quite delicious?
Speaker systems that rely on room gain for part of their presentation value do not fit our definition of room resolution.
Now I have to dig into sub placement, because mine is in the corner, and that is the only place in the room where it makes good sound. Anyway, I'd like to get another sub, and have it on the other side. I just feel where the sub is, so I will balance it out.
Your room has enough energy with one subwoofer. You need to treat the issues within your room below 100 Hz. so you can hear more of the sound from a single sound.
Isn't it easier to place the sub in your listening position... then you wander around on the floor to find the sound that works. That is where the sub goes and hopefully it is in a good spot for the room.
The sub position has nothing to do with easy or difficult. The room dimensions and the SPL used within the room are the most critical variables.
This is not a good start point for this process. Elevate the sub off the floor and place it on casters so it can be easility moved. Place in room center. Move in one foot increments in one direction at a time. Repeat process for another direction. Spend time listening to your music sources between sub moves. Sometimes you will know immediately, sometimes it will take a few songs. To avoid all of this, treat your room so it is pressure balanced. With a pressure balanced room, the sub will sound good anywhere within the room. To aid this tuning process, our sub platforms are on wheels.
www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
Could I Corner load one sub and have one subwoofer in the dead center of the room
Try it and report back to us.
isnt there a trick where you put the driver on the chair where you plan on being the entire time and you crawl around to hear where it sounds best?
A better approach is to use our subwoofer platform which elevates, attenuates, and isolates floor to sub contact. All of our platforms are on casters which allows them to be easily positioned and just as important moved easily for room tuning.
www.acousticfields.com/product/subwoofer-platform-absorber/
I noticed better sound in my room when I accidentally turned the sub off without realizing it
why do you say that? you don't like the subwoofer sound? i'm about to buy one but then i see your comment. lol please explain
@@carlos_al I was actually joking. I don't have one. I wouldn't buy a sub unless it had DSP capabilities to align phase and crossover with my monitors. Until then, I'll stick with mhy HEDD 07 mk which go down to 40 hz.
What application are you using a sub for?
@@dougleydorite i don't know what you mean by application but i have a yamaha A-S501 amp, Klipsch RP600M, red Dragonfly, playing music out of my laptop through soptify and itunes.
i know i must be doing something wrong because i like my sound but i'm not fulfilled. i welcome tips and suggestions!
Yes, most speakers are full range today and produce more than enough low frequency content. When you turned your sub off, you reduced the pressure within the room and thus reduced the modal impacts which allowed you to hear more of the low's.
Love it, Dig it.
Glad you like it!
Always delivering the gems Dennis
Thank you. I spend more time wading through all the nonsense than I would like to. The facts are always friendly.
Corner placement sounds best to my ears in my room. Oh well
Corner speaker placement increases room distortions. Try moving them out of the corners and listen to the increased resolution.
REL begs to differ thanks to better crossovers.
Better crossovers will have minimal impact on the modal pressure issues within a room. The room dimensions determine the low frequency issues. Placing less energy at certain frequencies will have an impact but only at those frequencies. Its best to treat the room for all low frequency issues and then you don't have to play cat and mouse with room modes. You can treat the complete room for all frequency issues for the costs of two subs.
Balanced.
What is balanced?
🤣🤣🤣
Normaly don't tell people to use comon sense🤪
Found that extremely funny for some reason 🤪
I do agree though, no subs in the corner in my space😊
Yes, we have found that what is common to one may not be common to another especially when it comes to small room acoustics.
So why did Electro Voice, Klipsch and JBL, etc. design speakers specifically for corner placement?. The EV Regency III and Klipschorn actually use the walls of a corner as part of the folded horn design. They do need a large room to sound good. I used to have an EV Regency III with an EV 18" in it.
I just bought a JBL Control SB-2 subwoofer which has a 10" dual voice coil driver and is a slot loaded, vented bandpass design. It is triangular and made to gain full efficiency in a corner either on the floor or ceiling. The efficiency is less when placed in other locations. They came with mounts for corner placement between floor and ceiling or on a wall for commercial applications. So far I have it away from a wall or corner and is still fairly efficient. I have yet to try different placements. I have either stone or concrete walls and floor with an acoustic tile ceiling, and a unique room, so a different situation than most.
They place them in the corners to boost the low end output. Part of that boost is room distortion.
vendors produce what people buy, not what is good
@@Harald_Reindl The Klipschorn at $12,000 to $20,000 a pair is not at a price point for your average consumer.
@@grob318 honestly if I would like them I would order them and case closed but I don't want speakers working with room gain and distortion - I prefer controlled quality down to volume levels which won't work if you have a cold because of too loud breathing noises
besides the quality problem klipsch speakers are ugly like hell and won't fit anyways in my living room
instead waste that much money for speakers invest it in room acoustic and steakhouses
Dennis, For sake of discussion. What about multiple smaller subs instead of one larger one?
I have nowhere near the knowledge of Dennis, but I think you would run into serious phase issues unless you have a massive room.
Also to be small enough to add multiple subs and not "overfill" your room, those drivers would probably get too small to accurately produce real sub frequencies anyway.
@@jacobwhite936 that's what dsp is for, timing alignment and volume is a solved problem! and that small speakers can't produce low frequencies is nonsense given that headphones exists
All signal processing has its own electronic signature which is reflected within the mix. This is the reason most music today has lost its soul. There is too much processing. You can bend the laws of physics but you can not break them.
@@AcousticFields timing alignment is not bend physics
The desk is in the middle. The corner is the only physical space remaining.
It does not matter where the desk is set up. Stay out of the corners.
"How does adding more of the cause of a problem help you with the solution?" Ask the government, they have been doing THAT for decades.
Agreed. As with the government, excess is viewed as success. Its maddening to anyone who nows better.
an average sub is 2500 dollars? Really, wow. My PB2000s were 700 and they are 12inch drivers. Id say they are the definition of average.
If room resolution is your goal, you must choose a sub that will contribute to that goal with balanced inputs and outputs along with proper cabinet construction and electronic and driver quality..
@@AcousticFields SVS are known for their high quality subs.
Stacking of subs is a great con. Firstly, in the concert industry there is no line array subs. It’s never done.
Secondly, you get 6 subs stacked up in 2 columns and then use them in low volume for ‘better bass’. Ratio of 6 subs to 2 stand mount speakers. 🤣😂🤣😂
personally i like to fly all my subs in the living room and kitchen... huge arrays in every direction... (sarc)
@@jonathanreddish8590 … won’t a pair of great headphones and a butt kicker strapped to your pants be cheaper?
What about stereo speakers where they have a tall cabinet with 6 12inch subs. Here’s a photo of one of these beasts..
Oops. Check out Infinity IRS speakers and others on the market.
@@Oneness100 … ok you got me there 😬 but it’s not x6 subs to x2 stand mount where you dish out $15k to only play the subs at a lower end of their capability.
The corners have been PROVEN to even out modes. This is not new. I also have been doing HT and audio for almost 30 years. Every time it eas better or as good in the corner than most other positions. You are enamored with your own intelligence. It does not produce more distortion, it evens out the modes better.
The corner issues are created by the two walls that produce the corners. If you treat the walls, the corner issues disappear. After 30 years, I am surprised you didn't figure that one out.
Too theoretical. Use your ears to find what's best.
Ears are a good start. However, you need to measure since your ears do not see well. Once you measure and fix, your ears will thank you with a new reference in sound quality.
@@AcousticFields My ears don't have to see well!
If you’re a broke person like me the best option is just to place your speakers where it sounds the best the most natural do you want your speakers not to sound like speakers do you want your speakers to sound like the room if you’re subwoofer sounds their best in the corners if that’s where they sound the most natural that’s where they go if your main speakers sound their best up against the wall that’s why you place them if your speakers sound the best when you pull them out into the room that’s where you placed in your room dictates where your speakers go not everybody’s got Tens of thousands of dollars to do what is the golden standard sometimes you just Gotta do what you Gotta do
Placing your speakers in the corners of your room will not produce a natural sound. It will be a sound that is composed of room gain which is distortion. There is nothing "natural" about room distortion. The goal is less room distortion.
@@AcousticFields The goal is less distortion. Ask Paul klipsch himself if he was alive the first high Fidelity speakers were corner loaded obviously you don’t know the history of audio
Love mine in corner :)
Have you tried it in other positions?
@@AcousticFields i am limited to where i can put and its huge 4k pb svs
💪
Thank you for your following.
I have 9 subs in my home theater setup (7 passive 2 active). I have 5 passives in one corner, and the SQ and SPL are incredible. I challenge any naysayers to listen to my setup, and feel the phlegm clear from your throat, and a 360° air massage from the sound pressure level. Peace
Quantity is not quality. You bought into the loudness myth.
@@AcousticFields to each his own.