Help! What are YOUR Concerns?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- What do you want to know or do you wish you knew before you installed your water monitor and shutoff system. I'll be comparing Phyn Plus and Flo by Moen and rather than assuming I've covered all topics, I'd love to get your feedback in case I've missed some points.
Fair warning, I'm asking everyone on this one. Each company and their customer support teams included.
I can't say enough for each one of you that has been here and had some very influential knowledge drops and questions. Each one has helped educate myself and others. THANK YOU!
I really appreciate your time and thought on any comment you leave.
Phyn Plus vs Flo by Moen: Hardware Differences
Sensors (turbine vs ultrasonic, temperature)
Durability
Testing
Pressure drop / debris block
Connectors
Electrical
Lights
Sound
Size
Materials
Phyn Plus vs Flo by Moen: Software/Algorithm Differences
Different leak scenarios
Published leak thresholds
Learning mode
Plumbing checks
Phyn Plus vs Flo by Moen: App Differences
Manual overrides
History
Away mode
Alerts
Data shared
Phyn Plus vs Flo by Moen: Misc Differences
Subscriptions
Warranty
Leak sensors
Battery backup
Smart faucet compatibility
RELATED PLAYLISTS:
○ All About Phyn Plus (unboxing, install & testing) - • All About Phyn Plus [I...
○ All About Flo by Moen (unboxing, install & testing) - • All About Flo by Moen ...
○ Leak Detection - • Supply Plumbing Leak D...
DISCLAIMER / HONESTY POLICY: The links in this description may be affiliate links. If you purchase a product or service with the links that I provide I may receive a small commission. You are not obligated to do so, but it does fund these videos in hopes of helping you protect your home and there is no additional charge to you.
DISCLAIMER #2: This Phyn Plus unit is a review unit sent by Phyn. This is the type of information I would have liked to see before choosing our first water monitor and shutoff system. Also, this kind of information is necessary to properly compare Flo and Phyn in an upcoming video.
PRICING / REVIEWS
○ Phyn Plus (10% off Phyn) - www.phyn.com/plus-smart-water... enter discount code "Margaret10" (but without the quotes) at checkout
○ Other pricing/reviews on Phyn Plus: amzn.to/2XUljro
○ Flo by Moen - amzn.to/3alFOlP
OUR GO-TO PLUMBING LEAK DEBUGGING/PREVENTION PRODUCTS:
○ Cheap, Yet Effective Water Pressure Gauge - amzn.to/3iX50Sz
○ Phyn Smart Water Sensors - www.phyn.com/smart-water-sens...
○ Aquor’s House Hydrant - amzn.to/3fmeSTX
○ Wyze Cams - amzn.to/3vXZ2IL --I have V2's with this economical SD card amzn.to/2PvxxG9, but the V3 is out now and night vision is much improved: amzn.to/3dvctHV
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MUSIC
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Hi Margaret! Your videos are awesome and much-appreciated. I wish I'd known Phyn would release a functionally identical version 2 of their system at a full $200.00 less than what I paid. 😎
I've certainly enjoyed your take--always on point! You might have a unit that might be in high demand soon to new users with exposed plumbing in the desert. Maybe there is an opportunity there. We'll see!
Concerns:
1) It's impossible to buy the Moen Flo anywhere unless you are willing to pay double the retail price on eBay
2) There are many reviews for the Flo complaining that the impeller gets rusty and the unit stops working. It would be good to know what causes this. Are there particular areas in the US where iron concentration in the water is higher for example? If one lives in such an area is the Phyn a better choice than the Moen flo?
3) Smart home integration. Moen Flo integrates with Home Assistant but Phyn does not
Thank you very much for sharing your concerns, Mark. I’ll address them with my past thoughts/experience in the interim:
1) Flo certainly has been hit hard by supply chain problems and that may or may not be addressed in the short term. I think your second concern is an additional issue here--current customers as well as new customers are asking for the replacement/new devices. The Flo by Moen product page is entirely gone. Phyn Plus just went on backorder.
2) Rust/corrosion buildup aside, the turbine is a moving part whereas an ultrasonic flow sensor isn’t a moving part. This is huge for wear and tear. My past experience as well as my concern on the turbine design is 100% why I’m enrolled in the Flo Protect plan and suggest everyone to highly consider it if they are sold on moving forward with Flo by Moen. It is a significant additional cost over 5 years. I don’t know the minerals/contaminants breakdown, but that is a valid concern. With my own experience, since Phyn survived in the desert and Flo didn’t (given that wasn’t a turbine issue), I think Phyn would last longer than Flo in any environment.
3) Flo pairs with Google and Alexa and Phyn utilizes IFTTT. Both have very limited options. I haven’t done much with it due to that so I’m curious, what do you plan on doing with the integration?
Hi Margaret,
Always enjoyed your videos on plumbing and chatting about the devices on your channel. I wondered if you ever looked into flume?
I just bought one on amazon for $200 and I'm really enjoying it. We just moved into a new construction house that used cpvc for the plumbing :( so the first thing I wanted to do was have tools to monitor the plumbing system so I installed both phyn plus (gen 1) and a Flume gen 2 (p.s. this phyn plus unit is accurately measuring the water pressure in my place, unlike my first unit). I tested the flume against phyn plus for accuracy and found the phyn to be super accurate while the flume was impressively accurate but seemed to overestimate usage by ~1-5%. For my case, I like having both because the flume goes on my water meter and tracks all the water going to my property, while the phyn is installed after my irrigation branches off.
This is great because the nightly plumbing checks on phyn are isolated to my house (so if I had a drip leak in my irrigation somewhere it wouldn't show up, because if it did, I would have a hell of a time determining if the drip was in the irrigation or behind a wall in my house).
The flume was cheap, accurate, no subscription, and requires ZERO plumbing knowledge. very easy to install - one downside is that it is battery powered and does not measure temp, pressure, nor can it shut off the water. But it does try to assign different usage events to different fixtures and the web-based interface is great for looking at usage and history (I wish phyn would release a web based interface). It also allows you to customize leak / high usage alerts based on flow rate and duration. For my purposes I think the phyn still reigns supreme, but it has been fun playing around with the flume and seeing my irrigation usage. I'll also say both devices were able to measure down to at least 0.05 gpm which was impressive, maybe they could register even lower.
P.S. I was looking into other home monitoring tools and came across this device called "sense" for power monitoring (sense.com/sense-home-energy-monitor). Just ordered one. Have you heard of it? Thought you might be interested.
It’s always good to hear from you, Will! Congrats on the move. How did you manage to get a Gen 1 Phyn Plus?
I have heard of Flume and even considered trying it out, but I haven’t pulled the trigger for a few reasons. #1 was the inability to shut off. I want to be able to do something about it--not just ask a neighbor to stop by. Second, I’ve heard of water companies removing Flume from water meters and wanted to verify that if I spent the $200 that it wouldn’t disappear the next time the meter guy walked the neighborhood. I also do not recall its small leak testing abilities--it has been a really long time since I looked into it.
I very much appreciate getting your thoughts on it first, which does move acquiring one a few notches closer to reality. Someday perhaps…
As for Sense, yes, just now having looked at the link you provided, I saw that goodness knows a while back. It looks really interesting and I did consider it, but then forgot about it. I could see how it would be easy to geek out on that...so another one is on the someday list.
Thanks for reaching out and bringing these devices to my attention.
@@NoMoreLeaks I got a first gen device because a local pro squad had them in stock for doing installs (beagle services). They did a great job. I was perfectly happy with a gen 1 because space was not an issue and I know the inner workings are identical between the two gens (plus gen 2 units are on backorder for like 2 months apparently). I also considered buying the Kohler branded version of phyn plus because they had that at a local store, but it seemed like you would have to use the Kohler app and that made me a little unsure.
I never thought about a utility person stopping by and removing the flume device... I'm glad you raised that point. Thanks! I'll have to see if there is some way I can try to avoid that happening!
I'd do exactly what you did decision wise. It is nice to know there are a few more Gen 1's out there. That aluminum housing is a big deal--20 degree delta in releasing heat. I have had another viewer comment that the Kohler app is *very* difficult to use to put it nicely.
If I recall correctly, there may be a compatibility issue with Flume and a smart water meter, but I'm not 100% sure. I don't have a smart water meter, but I certainly want to clear it first rather than it getting removed or just set on my door step. ;)
I always appreciate our conversations--there is so much to learn!
Excellent information as I just purchased and had Flo installed. I use mine in a second home that we rent during the summer. The house sits empty a good chunk of the time in the off season so my main reason for purchasing was for protection when no one is there for weeks at a time. As rental season arrives I am concerned that the “extra” water usage will trigger a shutoff while we have guests. The thought was that we could use away mode to prevent this but learned that it only lasts for 72 hours. I chatted with Flo customer service and they said there is no planned update for this and best option would be to unplug the Unit if we have more than usual activity with guests in the house. That is what I will probably do since I don’t want to risk shut off and inconvenience for our guests. Thanks!
Thank you for your comment. You are absolutely right in your logic. Disabling auto shutoff a *big* difference between the devices. Phyn Plus allows for disabling auto shutoff indefinitely so you could receive alerts, but not have the valve shut the water off. I'm personally very sorry the video hasn't come out sooner to let you know about this specific feature. That's terrible because you don't get the peace of mind knowing there is a leak during the on season when there is so much more demand on the system. Here's a work around: plug in Flo by Moen to a Wyze Plug amzn.to/3qsmehd or something along those lines so you can remotely shut off the outlet for Flo. Perhaps you can do other things like automatically turn it on when the clients are scheduled to leave--I'm not sure if that's a real feature with the Wyze Plug, but something like that might be on the market.
@@NoMoreLeaks thank you for the response and suggestion of a smart plug, that’s a great idea. I am disappointed about the lack of extended sleep mode but still very satisfied otherwise. As I said I was more concerned with the house being empty and having an issue and being protected. Sometimes we can go a couple of months without being there so would be a disaster with even the slightest leak. We will make it work the best we can and appreciate all of the thorough information. I have learned a great deal from the series. Take care!
Just found your channel due to my failed Flo turbine. Regarding concerns - you mention accuracy of the temperature sensors. I'm pretty sure they are no longer showing direct water temperature data in the app. They used to before they updated their app, but now it just shows ambient outdoor temperatures, likely from a weather service. Mine is mounted indoors, so it shouldn't follow the ambient weather temp fluctuations. I'm also amazed that there isn't a better warranty on these things considering their prices. I have had smart light switches replaced when they fail after 5 years. I can't believe Moen doesn't warranty these devices for longer than 1 year, but I imagine outdoor installations cannot be guaranteed longer than that due to weather exposure. They should provide an optional housing enclosure for outdoor installations.
Sounds like you are an early adopter as well. I really appreciate your thoughts. Yes, that is exactly right. Years ago it did report the water temperature, but then the company said they made the switch because people were calling in worried about burning themselves from water coming through the pipe after looking at the app (I'd assume they were somewhere like me in AZ). However, I'd prefer to know the *real* water temperature when the house is freezing--that's when pipes burst. A water reading of 140 degrees F will never be too hot by the time it comes out of a faucet or shower head. Flo switched the app to reporting local weather, but the internal temperature gauge is still there because it would need to know that in order to report the freeze alert. I pulled all my videos down, including videos on how Phyn Plus and Flo's temperature sensors work, while I reevaluate my position on these water monitors. Flo offers an extended warranty. I'm enrolled in FloProtect, but my 5 year warranty goes out in April. To be fair, even indoors, Flo is constantly under use/stress and who knows what contaminants are in the water working against the device on top of the cost of data transfer/storage/etc that the light switch does not. From my own experience and receiving comments from others, Flo should be an indoor only device. I hope the replacement turbine kit does the trick for you.
@@NoMoreLeaks Yeah, I adopted it about 5 years ago. My needs are a little different form you though, as I'm in an area with plenty of fresh water, but I have a water feature in my backyard that can at times consume too much water (it has an auto-fill valve from the house plumbing) Flo Protect has helped ensure I catch it when its consuming too much. But sometimes the app can be overly annoying with its protections for me. One of the most valuable things I found was when my water pressure regulator from the city went bad. I was getting 120 psi of water inside my house, and I wouldn't have really known it except for Flo telling me. 120 PSI is much higher than what house plumbing is rated for, so it helped me catch that before a potential failure occurred.
I wish they would give you an option to still view the water temperature. I don't need a graph of the outdoor air temperature.
Hmm, I am a floprotect customer as well, I may be RIGHT at that 5 year warranty time frame. I'll have to look into it. I actually didn't know floprotect brought an extended warranty!? Appreciate the reply!
That's HUGE! What a relief to find that 120 PSI before appliances started failing--the device more than paid for itself right there.
Agreed on the option. We have weather.com for everything else. ;)
Have you called in to see if they'll send you a replacement turbine kit as a FloProtect customer? I'm glad we had this conversation to hopefully have that covered.
Through a little email confusion, I think I have both a turbine and a new unit coming my way, thanks to floprotect. At least it seems that way...
Whoa. I gotta say, while that seems a little extreme, the Flo customer service was really impressive IMHO. Glad you were able to get it worked out. On to the next 5 years! 🤞
Another topic worth some discussion is best practices in deploying water sensing devices and systems. Water leaks can come from several sources, plumbing (pin holes, fittings, connections, appliances), drains, and outside incursions (sumps, wall weeping after heavy rains). It seems each needs a different approach or combination of sensors.
I'm wrestling right now with how to best sense leaks from sinks, toilets, and appliances. I've had leak sensors for years but they always missed the leak. The most recent which I mentioned elsewhere, was an upstairs leaking toilet supply fitting. The leak was too slow for Moen Flo to catch. It dripped straight into the tile floor missing a water sensor barely 6 inches away. We detected the leak when we saw water seeping through the living room ceiling. A similar case was at my daughter's house a few weeks ago where the water supply line to the fridge leaked and was detected when they noticed the wood floor swelling and saw water dripping in the basement. They do not have water sensors but they would not have helped in the normal deployment as the leak followed the supply line into the floor with no water pooling.
Here is my current thinking on this subject. I have several Moen Flo water detectors and I'm considering adding their leak sensing cable to them, wrapping it around supply lines to toilets and sinks and sink drains. That cable is 5 feet long which I'm thinking is much longer than needed in some cases and might become unsightly so I might try cutting it to length. In addition to working, it needs to look neat and tidy.
In the 10+ years I've been working on water leak detection, I'm batting zero in real application. However, I'm encouraged by the potential of the new technology to increase my odds considerably of reliably detecting water leaks before it causes damage.
I totally agree. When I buy more sensors I'm planning on showing what I ended up doing to maximize my 9 sensor limit with Phyn. Your unfortunate real examples highlight one of the hard parts about this subject: it's all a best guess and even then, water finds a way to go undetected. Even worse is when it is a leak that isn't related to plumbing. A leaking roof, condensate line, basement wall leaking, etc. which are also places where the sensors can help.
With regard to how it looks, rather than cutting the sensor cable could you loop it with a zip tie where the extra length could be hidden, let's say, behind the toilet?
Really appreciate your comment. I like how you think!
@@NoMoreLeaks A 9-sensor limit would be a problem for me. As far as I can tell, Flo has no such limit. I currently have 11 sensors; 3 Flo and 8 others that I'm in the process of replacing. If I do all the locations I theoretically should, I'm looking at 20 sensors. At around $45 for the sensor and $24 for the water sensing cable, the cost is well over $1,000. Ouch! Would something like Aqara sensors at $15 each be a smarter buy? Aqara sensors don't support water sensing cable, how critical is that? The water sensing cables from Flo are rather stiff and don't naturally lie flat on a surface. Do you tape them in place? Perhaps a mix of Flo and Aqara sensors? Lots to ponder when it comes to the nitty, gritty details of deployment. The goal is improving the probability of catching a leak before it causes serious damage vs cost. I don't see much effort being expended at this level of system design.
Your limit is 88. I asked at the last builder's show and while I'm not great at remembering numbers, that one stuck because it isn't a normal number. In any case, agreed, it's a sticker shock, but the ability to shut of water could be worth way more than that (although sadly you seem to have the unfortunate knack where that is not true). Are there any places where you could daisy chain sensor cables to cut down on some of the cost? All of those questions are relative to the individual so I'm hesitant in saying how effective it is and if it is worth it. I'm all for function though. I like using painter's tape to keep something in place, which doesn't leave any sticky residue although it is not aesthetically pleasing.
How do you teach Flo what is "normal" usage for your installation? Flo will alert you for what it thinks is excess water usage. How can we refine that calculation? I have a situation where my wife will sometimes let the shower run extra long to which Flo send me a message. I've always guessed correctly what's going on and bypassed the shut off by Flo. That process works really well, thank goodness. Since it is repeatable, it would seem the Flo AI process could be trained like I am. How can we refine Flo's algorithms to cover situations like this? Since flow regulation is a complex issue involving several factors, are there some scenarios you are better off not trying to automate? As much as I appreciate automation, I've had situations in other areas where less automation is better. Can Flo become too smart in its application of AI?
Manual overrides is the only idea I have on that. I wish their manual override could give us a minimum flow rate. That would allow you to maintain coverage for everything below the flow rate by the shower head. An irregular use like that is understandably hard to identify the difference between a washing machine supply line burst compared to a long shower. While it may sound like I'm being cheeky, it sounds like the long showers need to happen more often to get the algorithm to identify it properly.
Love my Flo unit. The first revelation after installation was that my pressure regulator needed to be replaced. It was clearly broken. The new one works, but I'm trying to figure out if my new regulator is working correctly. Normal line pressure is about 50 psi, street pressure is about 125 psi. I regularly see peak pressure from Flow of 80 to 100 psi. Sometimes they last for a couple of hours. I'm guessing they are related to pressure build up from expansion from the water heater, but they are not regular enough to be sure. If you can shed any light on what "normal" looks like in water pressure regulation that would be helpful. Also how to get good history data from Flo for later analysis. It's clear the Flo folks have it. I would like access to that data periodically for problem diagnosis.
The longer view Flo provides is one of the major strengths of Flo--instrumental in discovering failed PRV's. I loved hearing that when you shared your story. When I closed my system and left the water heater running I was seeing spikes of 25 psi when the water heater kicked on. If there was more hot water in the line with a PRV I'd expect the pressure to go up. However, I'm not sure about maintaining the elevated pressure for a couple of hours part. It's cooler now so I wouldn't expect it to stay at the high point for very long--just a gradual drop for a few hours as I saw here (at the exact timestamp of two different overnight runs): th-cam.com/video/9jglN6I-HzM/w-d-xo.html. I'd also expect to see this at regular intervals, but again, if there is a lot of hot water usage at that point in time perhaps that explains it? I don't have a PRV and the home where my current Flo is located doesn't either so I don't have that. It doesn't sound like it's an expansion tank issue. I'm laughing because just last week I called Flo to get the pressure drop on a health check I ran last October. It is nice that they have the data. Although I wonder if the storage part could be used against insurance claims in the future...
PS I always love your comments. I'm not a plumber so I always learn something and have to think critically to formulate a decent response. I very much appreciate your attention to detail and testing results.
I also had to replace my PRV, and additional spikes were being caused by my blown expansion tank. That could be what you were seeing?
My question is one you can't answer..... How long will this Flo last before I need to replace it???
I hear you. I think yours are a bit ahead of mine time wise, right? #5 is at a year and two months. I'm not 100% with the temps I'm seeing from Phyn Plus 2nd Gen, but ask me that last year with 1st Gen and I felt the same way... I'm crossing my fingers and that's not giving any of us that satisfactory feeling. Although to be fair if I covered Phyn Plus (as I did for Flo #2, #3, and #4), I would genuinely be shocked if it failed.
I've been considering getting a system like this for my home. I am also out in the desert and on a well. Do you know if that matters? Also which one do you think has the higher quality fittings or whatever for the plumbing aspect of it? Did you install it yourself or did a plumber do it and if so, do they have a preference between the two brands for quality installation? Really cool seeing an unbiased 3rd party review these. Thanks!
My first question is if the device will be installed inside or outside? That very much matters. If inside, will it be in a hot garage? I've heard good things about both systems on wells with some additional measures like these: www.phyn.com/help/installing-a-phyn-plus-in-a-well-home/ and support.meetflo.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003950254-Can-the-Flo-by-Moen-Smart-Water-Shutoff-be-installed-on-any-type-of-water-supply-line- Fittings wise, both units have some high quality plastic for the threads--Phyn requires additional water meter couplings (generally brass, but it depends on your plumbing type) and Flo has a high quality plastic nut, but those lasted for the 4 units I went through--there's no way to get them off once installed. My husband installed both Flo by Moen and Phyn Plus. You'll have to coordinate who gets the connectors for Phyn Plus because a plumber isn't likely to have them but they are generally in stock at the local plumbing supply (not big box stores). There are too many options available for a one size fits all solution because everyone has different kinds of plumbing and sizes. If your eyes glaze over at this: www.phyn.com/help/plumbing-unions-and-propex-parts-for-installing-your-phyn-plus/ let me know what your plumbing is (copper, PEX, etc.) and what size pipe. Flo has their copper piece which comes in the box that will get soldered to copper (and then transition to other types of plumbing, if needed). Both are visible in my unboxing and installation videos. Appreciate your compliment--I'm trying to be unbiased, but I certainly know which one works for my particular location.
How much for that Flo you have on your back? They are out of stock.
The Flo in the video is just a prop now--all my Flo devices failed outdoors here in the desert. I decided to end that experiment in this location and moved to Phyn Plus. I went into more details here: th-cam.com/video/RkbMWE-h60Y/w-d-xo.html. I don't know when it will be back in stock--even the product page is gone.
Wish…I knew phyn plus needed to go before the prv.
I'm curious as to why it should go before the PRV. It is my understanding that a water monitor and shutoff system should be on your side of the PRV. That's where you want to see the pressure so you can identify if the PRV is going bad as opposed to verifying the city pressure and not knowing what pressure is actually inside your house. With that reasoning it sounds like yours is correctly placed.
Had to ditch the phyn because there was no room for the phyn unless it was before the prv. Instead went with the yolink battery operated sensors & battery operated shutoff that can be used before or after prv. Works very well & more importantly works when power or Wi-Fi goes out.
It's great to hear you found a solution for your situation! Thanks for sharing what you decided on and why.
Is your phyn application working all the time? I bought the smart monitor one (under the sink) and most of the time tbr app doesn't work.
Currently the Phyn app is stable, but it was not a few months back. They've had a few updates since then and I've had better performance. I have a Samsung Galaxy S10+. I generally give companies a lot of grace it comes to phone apps--I imagine it is difficult to constantly update an app with the ever changing phone updates with the sheer volume of different phones out there. But it has been solid the last couple months. The workaround I successfully used before was closing the app and reopening. What phone do you have?
@@NoMoreLeaks I'm using a Samsung Galaxy S22 Ultra, the Phyn app really sucks for me, no way to capture those alerts in real time. It seems Flo app is better. In my case, I want to test Flo and it will be located in a basement.
Interesting especially since we're in the same family of phones. When I was doing the back to back testing of the Phyn sensors, my phone, my husband's S20 and his iPad were going nuts while he was in Texas and I was testing in Arizona. But I totally hear you--your results are different and you have to have reliability on the alerts coming through.