András Schiff - Sonata No.8 in C minor, Op.13 "Pathétique" - Beethoven Lecture-Recitals

András Schiff - Beethoven Lecture-Recitals
Wigmore Hall (London, UK), 2004-06
András Schiff last performed the complete Beethoven piano sonatas at Wigmore Hall from 2004-06 to overwhelming critical acclaim, with the editor of the Guardian, Alan Rusbridger, describing one particular performance as ‘a riveting mixture of erudition, analysis, passion, wit and memory’.
On the day before each of the eight recitals in the series, the world-renowned pianist, pedagogue and lecturer gave a lecture-recital in which he explored the works to be performed. Deeply engaging and insightful, these thought-provoking lecture-recitals, recorded live at the Hall, are available below as eight audio lecture-recitals.
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[@tinkerchel]

LECTURE NOTES:
-----------1st movt: sonata---------------
1. @5:14 the dotted rhythm is similar to that of Bach's C minor partita
2. @5:50 drop in dynamic trick: attack a chord, hold it with the pedal, then repress the keys 2 or 3. times without sound.
4. @9:40 the 4 notes will later become the first 4 notes of the 3rd movement.
5. @12:22 the 5 notes are taken from the Grave/intro, in a different rhythmic form
6. @13:17 piano imitates drum roll like a timpani
--------------2nd movt: rondo with 2 episodes--------------
7. @18:03 the triplet accompaniment like 2 clarinets
8. @18:53 it takes over the triplet accompaniment from the preceding episode
--------------3rd movt: rondo--------------
9. @21:54 2 motifs which form a counterpoint which are invertible.
10. @24:40 Neapolitan
11. @24:49 echoes the arpeggio in the 1st movement

[@kitbirskovich1838]

Wonderful! A gift from Beethoven and another from Andras Schiff, who opens our ears!

[@ericofelix2005]

I've heard Pathetique Sonata countless times, and Schiff's demo here was blown my mind and ears.
That power, the rapid bass in 1st mvt Allegro Molto was so delicate yet powerful.
His touch was very special and shining.
I learn a lot in this 26 minutes lecture, then (probably) years trying to figuring out how to perform it

[@myklkay]

Beethoven gave the name "pathetique" to the sonata : it's not a publishers idea.
It's one of the few works he gave a nickname to.

[@jordidewaard2937]

Got a source? Curious now

[@myklkay]

@@jordidewaard2937 The book "Beethoven " by Jean and Brigitte MASSIN. Page 75 of the biography and page 610 in the section "History of his works".

[@jordidewaard2937]

@@myklkay Hm interesting, wasn't familiar with that book nor its authors. Perhaps I'll give it a read when my exams finish up. Currently not learning the Pathetique or anything, but I am learning the Pastorale, so perhaps there is some interesting information for me in there. If not, the book should still be interesting enough with its general information about Beethoven.

[@myklkay]

@@jordidewaard2937 You should read it : it's one of the best biography of Beethoven.

[@joelmacinnes2391]

@@myklkay I might try to check that out, thanks

[@bensonsnorlax3630]

the best version i have ever heard, especially helpful for learners

[@gabrielleoverton]

Thank you for this, I'm currently learning this for a recital.

[@lecherox1]

25:29 No!

[@firepyro66]

why does everyone play the 32nd notes in the first bars as if they were 64ths?????????

[@laszlotamasik5139]

French Overture

[@user-yu4dq3dh9s]

15:19 Mov.2

[@samuelpaconla9066]

13:54 did he skip the repeat in F minor then C minor?

[@jianyingguo9761]

Schiff mentioned a trick to play the first fp chord. I think he said you attack the chord while holding down the pedal, then press the keys two to three times without making the sound. Can someone explain please? Listening to his playing, the dynamics does seem to diminish more quickly then usual.

[@jerrolerro5187]

I would also like to understand this better, i wish this was on video. It does sound impossible to press these big chords two or three times soundless, that seems insane.

[@davidjan66]

As a pianist I can imagine several ways to do a fp-effect: the easiest way is, to press the sustain pedal while playing the chord and release it immediately (at a suitable moment) while holding down the keys. This leads to a sudden decrease of sound, but it could have too little effect. The next step would be to lift the hands, hold the chord with the pedal, then release the pedal and repress the keys of the chord without sound almost at the same time, so that the dampers touch the strings for a very short time to be lifted once more immediately. You can repeat this, when the effect wasn’t enough. I think Schiff did that at the beginning of the lecture. The effect didn’t work out ideally. The next step would be to do this just with the hands , without using the pedal: hold the chord with your hands, then lift them shortly to the level when the dampers slightly touch the strings and repress them immediately (without sound). Both latter methods are very difficult to control, especially because every piano acts differently. It is very difficult, to let all the dampers just slightly touch the strings all in the same way - without losing one or more of the sounds. But it’s a very useful ability, also for contemporary music. While speaking about this trick Schiff demonstrated the effect perfectly.

[@Sujkhgfrwqqnvf]

@@davidjan66 Excellent explanation! But do you think that really Beethoven wrote that in order to get that effect in a fortepiano? It would be possible to do that in and ancient instrument? Or maybe that indication its an hypothetical orchestral-in-mind effect?

[@davidjan66]

@@Sujkhgfrwqqnvf the thing is, that the sustain quality of the modern piano with cast-iron frame is much better than on the Hammerklavier, which means that it takes longer for the sound to lose its energy. Of course on every keyboard instrument with strings the decay behaviour of every note depends on the attack dynamics. So you can chose a Forte with faster decay and try not to play with a tenuto “feeling”. I haven’t tried this with the beginning of the pathetique, but I think the sound with faster decay would be really loud and ugly on the modern piano. On the Hammerflügel the “fp”-effect is easier to find, because the sound decreases faster on these instruments and a good sf contains a significant side effect of “noise” (of the keys and even more the hammers). Significant because it is quite loud in comparison to the actual chord but disappears immediately after the end of the hammer action and leaves just some “fog” in the open strings. So the fp comes more naturally. To play Legato and/or tenuto on a Hammerflügel it is better to play softer. I think this is, what Andras Schiff means when he speaks about how helpful it was for him to play on various original instruments from the time or even the possession of composers of the 18. and 19. century. He doesn’t suggest to imitate their sound on the modern grand piano, but to always keep the sound of the Hammerflügel in mind while playing f.i. Beethoven’s music. In this case with fp you have to “cheat” a little bit. Same thing with the recitativi on one pedal in op.31/2. Schiff suggests to follow Beethoven’s marks to the letter, but to not press the pedal “to the ground”. 2/3 or something, he said. This is very difficult as well. You have to know the instrument you are performing with very, very well. So - Beethoven wanted to hear a fp, and it is your problem how to do that. The orchestral thinking helps to always have a kind of transcendent vision of the music. An then we only need an Andras Schiff to make it happen 🙈

[@lou7091]

@@jerrolerro5187 h

[@johorn2887]

helloitsmecabbage

[@anmarsch68]

Very bachien. Not mine.