I'm a new player in Westmarch. To me, Warlord is tactics and Battlemaster is strategy. Paragons need to know the rules, look the part, but most importantly to be a shining example of the pinnacle of their class.
Warlord is a single stick fighting tournament award. I see Battle Master as more team based than Warlord. There still is an element of singular skill, but how you work with your team is also very important.
After 2 years of playing Scout, Finally earned my Scout Paragon hood. :D I've been the main scout of my field for these 2 years, Teaching not just scout but alot of the other classes to the new players, I've Memorized all the spells and can teach the other newer scouts mid battle game even on how to play the class As for my park, it's kind of far away from the rest of my kingdom needing a passport to even visit them, So I don't know much about my kingdom... but for my park specifically, We've looked for yes Garb, but we also look at teaching as a method of how well they've memorized the class.
I'm part of The Kingdom of the Northern Lights. Personally I feel paragon is 70% skill, 10% looking the part and 20% teaching. If I don't feel your impact on the field then I don't even look at the other things.
I gripe about this a ton: rules as written, it is not fair to expect any player to look like another player's opinion of what a class should look like beyond the class's garb requirements. A class is the name given to a set of equipment and abilities, not a costume archetype. Roleplay and dress like your character. My barbarian character isn't a buff savage in a loincloth, it's a Pikmin throwing rocks. Adrenaline doesn't heal my Pikmin's limbs, it replaced him with a healthy one.
In the old days three classes I felt were handled differently Bard class masterhood was more awarded for non battlefield bardic skill, i.e. performance ability at bardics, around campfires or in things like crown quality. I think there were some class masterhood bards who barely played bard than not. Assassin was kind of tied to assassinations which was battlefield but also incorporated feast scenarios, specifically taking out prominent targets like kings and such. and Barbarian somehow was as much of a role-playing Barbarian along with the usual Barbarian battlefield stuff. I mean I guess to a degree all could be but Barbarians are loud and easily noticeable and it feels like I would see more of those.
I have heard stories of all of these types of things earning master/paragon in the past. With the advent of them being tied to Battle Master/Knight of Battle, I think they will become rarer and rarer.
"winning more than you are losing" feels like a VERY abstract thought process in the case of many players that wish to take a more support heavy role. if i go out and pop 30 heals/resurrects a game and I'm losing 4/5 kingdom games due to things outside of my control who's fault is that at that point? I'm not trying to detract from your process or seem aggressive. Just an observation coming from a more support focused player.
Not aggressive at all! Thanks for the comment. I play support main classes also. I feel like it is my job to set my carry’s up for success. If my team is consistently loosing, even when the people around me are shifting, then I feel I am not doing a good enough job at support. I try to only focus on things I can control. I can’t always control the people that get put on my team, but I can control my spell list and play style. If my support style isn’t winning game after game after game, I would want to change up what I am doing because I want to win haha.
Howdy, Proud Citizen of the Kingdom of Neverwinter. Go by the name of Cid down there. I would say if we are going break down paragons at least with what ive seen is that the person must be iconic in that class. Whether that be consistent incredible expressions of skill or knowledge .Being well known for playing the class and being at the very least effective on it. This area to my understanding makes up maybe 85% of what makes up paragonships for us. I want to say teaching shouldnt be a requirement, but it does allow for a player to show their skill, by teaching interactions and helping foster of the health of the class within the kingdom as a whole. So it can only really help but i agree it shouldnt be a requirement. I earned my current two paragons on casters (Bard and Healer), by coordinating teams and leading squads with battle plans at kingdom and at interkingdom events. I cant really fight due to a series of bad injuries so ive had to take up more of a coaching role, and teaching but this is something that once you are a paragon i think should be something you should at least attempt to do. No obligations to do so, but i want to be able to connect to my compatriots and work on class guides together to really bring up the next generations of players, and i dont want them just taking my word alone as gospel. What i want to ask is more of how to connect the current pool of paragons and figure out how to get them to do more for the community outside of the Guildmaster system we have currently down here.
I think teaching is represented in the other Orders, it just isn't explicitly stated. New player training is a very important part of Amtgard, and vital to a shire's success. While the method of training isn't explicit in the rules, it has to be organized in some way, and those responsibilities seem to fall to the Monarch and Champion. In the shires I've visited, however, this organized training only extends to "boffer aspects" of how to do Amtgard-legal fighting; stick jock and safety stuff, you know? Critical, but not class knowledge. All of the class-specific advice I've received has been from people experienced in those classes who were eager to share their knowledge. Yes, the teaching requirement is uniquely explicit, but the information is niche. It doesn't replace skill or battlefield competency, it requires them; we do not want inexperienced people teaching this. We have all these classes people want to learn, and the only way they can train effectively is to receive advice from experienced players with specific knowledge in that particular class's skills and how they interact with the larger battlegames. Without that, they are just using trial and error, maybe learning bad habits. The person this describes, to me, is a paragon. Rewarding someone for contributing to a vital aspect of bringing people into this game seems completely in-line with the other awards.
I'd say 20% is look the part, 60% is skill on the field and another 20% is knowing the rules as well as a reeve. I have for some time now thought that there should be something a bit more standardized for judging and awards as it varies massively even between parks. there seems to be little standardization between a lot of the awards/orders. There also been no standard for who can judge A&S entries and what criteria they will be looking for. The answers I get is just make sure you have a thorough write up. Imagine if they did that in the Olympics. I plan to write up a SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) at least for my Fighting Company/House That will encompass award requirements up through master and knight as well as expectations for holding a nominated position within the kingdom which the Corpora touches on but doesn't give a full path on. Was actually planning on sharing our info probably via youtube once we have sat down as a group and agreed on what we consider to be standards and best path toward a particular order/position. If you're curious I'll hit you up on discord.
Rising Winds. I’m on the outside looking in so it ~feels~ like Paragon is awarded for 95% skill, particularly at bridge wars. I wish that paragon could exist separate from battle master and was still the “for fun” award as you called it. I say that because now I’m seeing more “battle master” style tournaments at Kingdom and Grand Duchy. While there are plenty of fun, casual pick up battle games, I’m starting to dread the hyper competitive games as they all boil down to the same formula. Which side has more and/or CC. Back to your video, I feel there’s one small thing you left out. How does one go about becoming a paragon from a support role? It’s not flashy and is often thankless, but can really shift a battle.
For me it’s all the same. When I look out across the field, I still have to send players disrupt that baller healer. I think the support classes end up getting more love than some of the melee classes. I think we see many more healer and druid paragons go out compared to scout and monk for instance. I think support classes can still carry and warrant the same amount of prep as the carry classes if the skill is there.
As someone who is working on paragon support (Healer), it is a hard and strange road. It's a lot of thinking of how do I use both my abilities and my team for using what I can provide in enchants and spells more efficiently. I'm at 7th battle and almost every event I go to, I seem to find some new facet in Healer that I have missed or did not apply in a certain way that really opens up how well I perform later. I've been banging my head against the wall until it breaks with Archetypes so I understand how they can be used and played around so I can answer questions and compare notes to other healers of all levels I can find who want to talk shop. Warder and Archetypeless have actually been the most painful for me. I got noticed at Keep just playing Necro/Priest by zipping all over using almost nothing but Release, Heal, Summon Dead and Rez. Where-ever I saw a team mate just stuck, I would dash and ask what's up. Someone armed? Get that ambulant Heal/Rez going while you trot to them in case they die when on the way. Just getting people back in the game to have fun will make peeps know that you are there to help and they can start to learn to count on you for support.
Ok, so what outfit is fitting of an Archer? If you think robinhood...that would be a scout. Archer is the one that doesn't have a "look" they would look like a light armored warrior with a bow. Nothing of the really stands out. So how would you design a garb set for a person seeking paragon archer? This has been an ongoing issue I have ran into. I personally put the most emphasis on combat skill and ability usage.
I can think of two things. 1.) a “Robin Hood” hat. Like the green pointy in front hat with a feather. I’m not saying yours would have to be exactly like Robin Hood’s but I feel like it’s archery. 2.) an ornate or at least somewhat noticeable archery glove, possibly with an attached brace to protect the forearm from the bow string. (I would assume good archers probably don’t hit their forearms much if at all but it looks archer-y)
I think scout and archer over lap a ton. So much so I wish they would combine them into one and have two archetypes but that’s another discussion haha. I think what most would think of as scout armor would be acceptable for archer. Maybe make your bow, quiver, arm guard/glove, and any other archery gear stand out more. I wouldn’t hold this against any upcoming archer because their class was poorly designed That’s not their fault.
Hard disagree with your stance on look and RP, on the grounds that there are many ways to look and RP a class. Examples: assassins could look like stereotypical ninjas… and the argument could be made that successful assassins blend in, not looking like assassins. Healers could look like clergy, or hedge mages, or mad alchemists… and if they’re in a life pool game, the more they look like a healer, the more they’re going to be targeted. Maybe your paladin is a dependable holy protector, but mine is filled with righteous fury that demands that evil be chased down. Just because someone doesn’t fit someone else’s idea of what a class should look or act like, that shouldn’t disqualify them for paragon. My standard is that they have their own garb and gear (whether that be weapons and armor, spell balls and enchantment strips, throwies or arrows, etc.) and that it’s high enough quality that you can tell they didn’t throw it together the night before an event.
Unfortunately for my kingdom, it's 100% popularity. I've seen people sign in to level, play the class 3 times and then get the paragonhood. Rinse and repeat.
Rookie from WE. Being a paragon takes 10% luck, 20% skill… just kidding 😂 I personally think paragons are 40% skill - on the field people feel your impact and play around you because you know and play your class so well, that includes your abilities, equipment, and what kind of role your chosen class excels at 40% demonstrable knowledge of class - not strictly teaching but more broadly knowing your class so well you’re able to talk about it at a high level with others, guess that kind of goes hand in hand with skill, but this is part is more theory whereas skill is like the practice, is what I’m trying to articulate. 20% look the part/roleplay - to me someone ought to put considerable effort into looking like the class they want to paragon in. Not saying go all out into cosplay territory but not doing just general medieval garb either. I should be able to tell a warrior looks like a warrior not just by the sash but by the armor, a wizard not by the sash but wearing robes or a pointy hat, an archer not by dash but by the bow and leather arm guards, etc etc.
I'm a new player in Westmarch. To me, Warlord is tactics and Battlemaster is strategy. Paragons need to know the rules, look the part, but most importantly to be a shining example of the pinnacle of their class.
Warlord is a single stick fighting tournament award. I see Battle Master as more team based than Warlord. There still is an element of singular skill, but how you work with your team is also very important.
After 2 years of playing Scout, Finally earned my Scout Paragon hood. :D
I've been the main scout of my field for these 2 years, Teaching not just scout but alot of the other classes to the new players, I've Memorized all the spells and can teach the other newer scouts mid battle game even on how to play the class
As for my park, it's kind of far away from the rest of my kingdom needing a passport to even visit them, So I don't know much about my kingdom... but for my park specifically, We've looked for yes Garb, but we also look at teaching as a method of how well they've memorized the class.
Congrats!!
I'm part of The Kingdom of the Northern Lights. Personally I feel paragon is 70% skill, 10% looking the part and 20% teaching. If I don't feel your impact on the field then I don't even look at the other things.
That is where I start also.
Im a grand alkerseletzer chewer
I gripe about this a ton: rules as written, it is not fair to expect any player to look like another player's opinion of what a class should look like beyond the class's garb requirements. A class is the name given to a set of equipment and abilities, not a costume archetype.
Roleplay and dress like your character. My barbarian character isn't a buff savage in a loincloth, it's a Pikmin throwing rocks. Adrenaline doesn't heal my Pikmin's limbs, it replaced him with a healthy one.
In the old days three classes I felt were handled differently
Bard class masterhood was more awarded for non battlefield bardic skill, i.e. performance ability at bardics, around campfires or in things like crown quality. I think there were some class masterhood bards who barely played bard than not.
Assassin was kind of tied to assassinations which was battlefield but also incorporated feast scenarios, specifically taking out prominent targets like kings and such.
and Barbarian somehow was as much of a role-playing Barbarian along with the usual Barbarian battlefield stuff. I mean I guess to a degree all could be but Barbarians are loud and easily noticeable and it feels like I would see more of those.
I have heard stories of all of these types of things earning master/paragon in the past. With the advent of them being tied to Battle Master/Knight of Battle, I think they will become rarer and rarer.
"winning more than you are losing" feels like a VERY abstract thought process in the case of many players that wish to take a more support heavy role. if i go out and pop 30 heals/resurrects a game and I'm losing 4/5 kingdom games due to things outside of my control who's fault is that at that point? I'm not trying to detract from your process or seem aggressive. Just an observation coming from a more support focused player.
Not aggressive at all! Thanks for the comment.
I play support main classes also. I feel like it is my job to set my carry’s up for success. If my team is consistently loosing, even when the people around me are shifting, then I feel I am not doing a good enough job at support. I try to only focus on things I can control. I can’t always control the people that get put on my team, but I can control my spell list and play style. If my support style isn’t winning game after game after game, I would want to change up what I am doing because I want to win haha.
Howdy, Proud Citizen of the Kingdom of Neverwinter. Go by the name of Cid down there.
I would say if we are going break down paragons at least with what ive seen is that the person must be iconic in that class. Whether that be consistent incredible expressions of skill or knowledge .Being well known for playing the class and being at the very least effective on it. This area to my understanding makes up maybe 85% of what makes up paragonships for us. I want to say teaching shouldnt be a requirement, but it does allow for a player to show their skill, by teaching interactions and helping foster of the health of the class within the kingdom as a whole. So it can only really help but i agree it shouldnt be a requirement.
I earned my current two paragons on casters (Bard and Healer), by coordinating teams and leading squads with battle plans at kingdom and at interkingdom events. I cant really fight due to a series of bad injuries so ive had to take up more of a coaching role, and teaching but this is something that once you are a paragon i think should be something you should at least attempt to do. No obligations to do so, but i want to be able to connect to my compatriots and work on class guides together to really bring up the next generations of players, and i dont want them just taking my word alone as gospel. What i want to ask is more of how to connect the current pool of paragons and figure out how to get them to do more for the community outside of the Guildmaster system we have currently down here.
Master Assassin, July 12th, 2002
I think teaching is represented in the other Orders, it just isn't explicitly stated. New player training is a very important part of Amtgard, and vital to a shire's success. While the method of training isn't explicit in the rules, it has to be organized in some way, and those responsibilities seem to fall to the Monarch and Champion. In the shires I've visited, however, this organized training only extends to "boffer aspects" of how to do Amtgard-legal fighting; stick jock and safety stuff, you know? Critical, but not class knowledge.
All of the class-specific advice I've received has been from people experienced in those classes who were eager to share their knowledge. Yes, the teaching requirement is uniquely explicit, but the information is niche. It doesn't replace skill or battlefield competency, it requires them; we do not want inexperienced people teaching this. We have all these classes people want to learn, and the only way they can train effectively is to receive advice from experienced players with specific knowledge in that particular class's skills and how they interact with the larger battlegames. Without that, they are just using trial and error, maybe learning bad habits. The person this describes, to me, is a paragon. Rewarding someone for contributing to a vital aspect of bringing people into this game seems completely in-line with the other awards.
Good points. Do you think we should include the teaching part more specifically in the wording of the other orders?
I'd say 20% is look the part, 60% is skill on the field and another 20% is knowing the rules as well as a reeve. I have for some time now thought that there should be something a bit more standardized for judging and awards as it varies massively even between parks. there seems to be little standardization between a lot of the awards/orders. There also been no standard for who can judge A&S entries and what criteria they will be looking for. The answers I get is just make sure you have a thorough write up. Imagine if they did that in the Olympics. I plan to write up a SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) at least for my Fighting Company/House That will encompass award requirements up through master and knight as well as expectations for holding a nominated position within the kingdom which the Corpora touches on but doesn't give a full path on. Was actually planning on sharing our info probably via youtube once we have sat down as a group and agreed on what we consider to be standards and best path toward a particular order/position. If you're curious I'll hit you up on discord.
Do it! I love seeing stuff like this.
Rising Winds. I’m on the outside looking in so it ~feels~ like Paragon is awarded for 95% skill, particularly at bridge wars.
I wish that paragon could exist separate from battle master and was still the “for fun” award as you called it. I say that because now I’m seeing more “battle master” style tournaments at Kingdom and Grand Duchy. While there are plenty of fun, casual pick up battle games, I’m starting to dread the hyper competitive games as they all boil down to the same formula. Which side has more and/or CC.
Back to your video, I feel there’s one small thing you left out. How does one go about becoming a paragon from a support role? It’s not flashy and is often thankless, but can really shift a battle.
For me it’s all the same. When I look out across the field, I still have to send players disrupt that baller healer. I think the support classes end up getting more love than some of the melee classes. I think we see many more healer and druid paragons go out compared to scout and monk for instance. I think support classes can still carry and warrant the same amount of prep as the carry classes if the skill is there.
As someone who is working on paragon support (Healer), it is a hard and strange road. It's a lot of thinking of how do I use both my abilities and my team for using what I can provide in enchants and spells more efficiently. I'm at 7th battle and almost every event I go to, I seem to find some new facet in Healer that I have missed or did not apply in a certain way that really opens up how well I perform later.
I've been banging my head against the wall until it breaks with Archetypes so I understand how they can be used and played around so I can answer questions and compare notes to other healers of all levels I can find who want to talk shop. Warder and Archetypeless have actually been the most painful for me.
I got noticed at Keep just playing Necro/Priest by zipping all over using almost nothing but Release, Heal, Summon Dead and Rez. Where-ever I saw a team mate just stuck, I would dash and ask what's up. Someone armed? Get that ambulant Heal/Rez going while you trot to them in case they die when on the way.
Just getting people back in the game to have fun will make peeps know that you are there to help and they can start to learn to count on you for support.
You sound like you been through a lot of battles. I just value money in my kingdom really basic immune behavior my bad
Ok, so what outfit is fitting of an Archer? If you think robinhood...that would be a scout. Archer is the one that doesn't have a "look" they would look like a light armored warrior with a bow. Nothing of the really stands out. So how would you design a garb set for a person seeking paragon archer? This has been an ongoing issue I have ran into. I personally put the most emphasis on combat skill and ability usage.
I can think of two things.
1.) a “Robin Hood” hat. Like the green pointy in front hat with a feather. I’m not saying yours would have to be exactly like Robin Hood’s but I feel like it’s archery.
2.) an ornate or at least somewhat noticeable archery glove, possibly with an attached brace to protect the forearm from the bow string. (I would assume good archers probably don’t hit their forearms much if at all but it looks archer-y)
I think scout and archer over lap a ton. So much so I wish they would combine them into one and have two archetypes but that’s another discussion haha.
I think what most would think of as scout armor would be acceptable for archer. Maybe make your bow, quiver, arm guard/glove, and any other archery gear stand out more.
I wouldn’t hold this against any upcoming archer because their class was poorly designed That’s not their fault.
Hard disagree with your stance on look and RP, on the grounds that there are many ways to look and RP a class.
Examples: assassins could look like stereotypical ninjas… and the argument could be made that successful assassins blend in, not looking like assassins. Healers could look like clergy, or hedge mages, or mad alchemists… and if they’re in a life pool game, the more they look like a healer, the more they’re going to be targeted. Maybe your paladin is a dependable holy protector, but mine is filled with righteous fury that demands that evil be chased down.
Just because someone doesn’t fit someone else’s idea of what a class should look or act like, that shouldn’t disqualify them for paragon. My standard is that they have their own garb and gear (whether that be weapons and armor, spell balls and enchantment strips, throwies or arrows, etc.) and that it’s high enough quality that you can tell they didn’t throw it together the night before an event.
Unfortunately for my kingdom, it's 100% popularity. I've seen people sign in to level, play the class 3 times and then get the paragonhood. Rinse and repeat.
It do be like that sometimes. I know many kingdoms that have a toxic paragon culture.
How do you think your kingdom could fix this?
Yo! I'm trying to get paragon healer so that I can wear an embellished sash! Which parks hand out paragonships?
(I'm halfway joking)
Rookie from WE. Being a paragon takes 10% luck, 20% skill… just kidding 😂
I personally think paragons are
40% skill - on the field people feel your impact and play around you because you know and play your class so well, that includes your abilities, equipment, and what kind of role your chosen class excels at
40% demonstrable knowledge of class - not strictly teaching but more broadly knowing your class so well you’re able to talk about it at a high level with others, guess that kind of goes hand in hand with skill, but this is part is more theory whereas skill is like the practice, is what I’m trying to articulate.
20% look the part/roleplay - to me someone ought to put considerable effort into looking like the class they want to paragon in. Not saying go all out into cosplay territory but not doing just general medieval garb either. I should be able to tell a warrior looks like a warrior not just by the sash but by the armor, a wizard not by the sash but wearing robes or a pointy hat, an archer not by dash but by the bow and leather arm guards, etc etc.
How do you differentiate skill and demonstrable knowledge? Those seem very similar to me haha.