I have ordered a opl2 kit that also came with recycled chips similar to yours. They have no issues and they sound like exactly that they should. They also have weird date marking 1313 on them. I used aceton on mine and a lot of black came off but nothing got revealed only the surface got duller. The two circles on mine had some funny shiny things that also came off after applying aceton. I don't see any reason they change codes on recycled chips that are sold so cheap. The black residue was probably some paint to make them look newer. The dull surface might be due to surface being sanded down. The etched marking look duller now but does not go away so probably they laser etched these after applying paint!
one reason i kind of recall is that resellers want to sell the old stock but make the data newer so that can meet some part rules. I think if the date is past a certain point companies wont bother, but if the stamp is recent they would buy them.
One of the main reasons for remarking is to make the chips look like they all came off the same factory run. This makes it easier to sell them to resellers. There are remarking companies that claim they are doing it "ethically", but I think their definition of ethical might just relate to working conditions or pollution than to the practice of remarking itself. But yeah, who really knows for sure what the history of these chips is. Decapping them would tell us more, but that requires far more exacting chemical procedures.
The brown stuff that came off the HM82C11A chip is just dirt and grime, I'd guess. It's also possible that the OPL chips you bought are clones, and that the label print is super cheap.
Yamaha ceased production of the YM3812 in the first half of the 90ies. So any YM3812 having a date code more recent than that printed on the surface is either original but remarked, cloned but at least functional or totally fake/counterfeit. Anyway that's definitely not the Yamaha's style of IC labeling, the font is different and usually the Yamaha logo is bold.
I agree that Yamaha ceased production of YM3812 in around 1994, but they had multiple fabs (which they didn't own) producing the chips. I don't see any way, without paperwork to back it up, to demonstrate that Yamaha didn't license short runs of the chip in years since, especially if there was stock still at those fabs. As for the logo, I only have one genuine chip to compare with, but it is from a different manufacturer/fab. I'd have to compare with a whole pile of original chips to be sure there was a uniform style of logo, and I simply haven't done that. I'd like to have your certainty, but I don't have the kind of information that would be necessary to draw those conclusions.
@@PCRetroTech Chips that are produced by other fabs under licensing actually fall under the "cloned" category. They're not original ICs made by Yamaha, but as they're licensed clones they're perfectly OK. Regarding the logo, I'm a vintage synthesizer and retrocomputing enthusiast. Being an enthusiast with such old stuff meant that I had to learn the skills to be my own tech, so in the years I had multiple occasions to put my hands inside quite an handful of devices that employed Yamaha components, being them synths, amateur/toy keyboards, sound effect units, old PCs and game consoles, etc. Every original Yamaha IC that I saw had a very recognizable label styling, especially for the logo, except for chips that were too small to accomodate the logo in the label (OPL's DACs are among these). That's why I'm so sure about how the labeling on an original Yamaha chip should look like. Even tho a properly styled logo and label are not necessarily a guarantee that the chip is original, as proper logo styling it's being taken care of too by counterfeiters.
@@mima85 That's interesting. Has anyone actually confirmed Yamaha had their own fab back in those days? Some people claim they were fabless back then, and others claim they did in fact make some chips at Kagoshima. Regarding the logo, I can take your word for that if you have lots of experience. It does look different to the logo on the genuine chip I have anyway. And it wouldn't make much sense for Yamaha to license something and not specify the logo precisely to match that of their company. So I take it as read that you are right on this.
We're waiting for you to try them out ;-) Even though they're faked, they could still be fully working clones. If so, I'd love to hear the differences.
I did try one of them out in the previous video! How do they sound to you? To me they actually sound IDENTICAL to a genuine YM3812 from 1994, which I happen to own. I'll be making a video about the card that is from and the chip itself at some point on the channel. But I'm all FM'd out for now.
@@PCRetroTech They're probably genuine parts with fake labels. The Chinese used-chip wholesalers reflexively fake almost everything even when it's the real deal, so that the retail sellers can present them as "new old stock" etc. if they choose to, but of course they can still decide to sell them as used. It's the same reason they tin the legs. They don't bother considering the value of proper labeling on a genuine part -- the labeling is not informational, it's cosmetic. You have to understand that in the Chinese business environment, superficial appearance is everything. Even absolute garbage will be gussied up to look fancy. If the kind of product they are selling often has bolts in a particular location, they will add fake bolts to the plastic mold and paint them with metallic paint. They will add fake vents solely for appearance' sake, often without even knowing what the vent was for originally. This goes back centuries. There's some great videos on late 19th/early 20th century Chinese gunsmithing. Some of their gunsmiths were highly skilled craftsmen, but they didn't understand what the range numbers on the sight meant, but the customer wanted the numbers because good guns have numbers on them, so they'd put random numbers on the sight (even if the sight couldn't be adjusted!). Then they'd print random latin text on the side because good guns have english/french/german printed on them, etc. In the end you could have a crap gun, or a fantastic gun, depending on the skill level of the Chinese gunsmith, but they all had weird stamps and bullshit on them solely for appearance.
@@PCRetroTech I don't know how I missed that part! They've got a very similar sound, but the YM fake sounds a lot cleaner to me. I don't know which one I would prefer actually. And I will never understand why they don't sell these old parts used as they are. Why all the effort. Everyone who needs such parts knows by now that they're only available as used part.
@@NozomuYume Thanks for the insight. I do feel they are probably genuine parts with fake labels. That is what my ear tells me. Hard to be sure, but that's what the evidence says so far.
@@Shmbler Yeah for some reason the sound on video was a bit different to in person. I don't have really professional recording gear for one thing. I didn't play the definitely genuine OPL2. That will come on a later video. But I can't tell for sure if it is different to these relabeled parts. It *might* sound just a little cleaner on a couple of tracks, but it's so subjective. I'm probably fooling myself.
Yeah, that looks fishy. You could probably use a multimeter and compare readings with a known genuine chip. Even though they have been "refurbished", they may well be genuine or clones.
I have ordered a opl2 kit that also came with recycled chips similar to yours. They have no issues and they sound like exactly that they should. They also have weird date marking 1313 on them. I used aceton on mine and a lot of black came off but nothing got revealed only the surface got duller. The two circles on mine had some funny shiny things that also came off after applying aceton. I don't see any reason they change codes on recycled chips that are sold so cheap. The black residue was probably some paint to make them look newer. The dull surface might be due to surface being sanded down. The etched marking look duller now but does not go away so probably they laser etched these after applying paint!
Acetone smells lovely. But then again, I'm a chemist and almost all solvents smell good.
Ha ha! I'd be careful doing too much of that.
Acetone is pretty powerful stuff. You could be taking off genuine plastic off of genuine chips.
one reason i kind of recall is that resellers want to sell the old stock but make the data newer so that can meet some part rules. I think if the date is past a certain point companies wont bother, but if the stamp is recent they would buy them.
One of the main reasons for remarking is to make the chips look like they all came off the same factory run. This makes it easier to sell them to resellers.
There are remarking companies that claim they are doing it "ethically", but I think their definition of ethical might just relate to working conditions or pollution than to the practice of remarking itself.
But yeah, who really knows for sure what the history of these chips is. Decapping them would tell us more, but that requires far more exacting chemical procedures.
The brown stuff that came off the HM82C11A chip is just dirt and grime, I'd guess.
It's also possible that the OPL chips you bought are clones, and that the label print is super cheap.
Yamaha ceased production of the YM3812 in the first half of the 90ies. So any YM3812 having a date code more recent than that printed on the surface is either original but remarked, cloned but at least functional or totally fake/counterfeit. Anyway that's definitely not the Yamaha's style of IC labeling, the font is different and usually the Yamaha logo is bold.
I agree that Yamaha ceased production of YM3812 in around 1994, but they had multiple fabs (which they didn't own) producing the chips. I don't see any way, without paperwork to back it up, to demonstrate that Yamaha didn't license short runs of the chip in years since, especially if there was stock still at those fabs.
As for the logo, I only have one genuine chip to compare with, but it is from a different manufacturer/fab. I'd have to compare with a whole pile of original chips to be sure there was a uniform style of logo, and I simply haven't done that.
I'd like to have your certainty, but I don't have the kind of information that would be necessary to draw those conclusions.
@@PCRetroTech Chips that are produced by other fabs under licensing actually fall under the "cloned" category. They're not original ICs made by Yamaha, but as they're licensed clones they're perfectly OK.
Regarding the logo, I'm a vintage synthesizer and retrocomputing enthusiast. Being an enthusiast with such old stuff meant that I had to learn the skills to be my own tech, so in the years I had multiple occasions to put my hands inside quite an handful of devices that employed Yamaha components, being them synths, amateur/toy keyboards, sound effect units, old PCs and game consoles, etc. Every original Yamaha IC that I saw had a very recognizable label styling, especially for the logo, except for chips that were too small to accomodate the logo in the label (OPL's DACs are among these). That's why I'm so sure about how the labeling on an original Yamaha chip should look like. Even tho a properly styled logo and label are not necessarily a guarantee that the chip is original, as proper logo styling it's being taken care of too by counterfeiters.
@@mima85 That's interesting. Has anyone actually confirmed Yamaha had their own fab back in those days? Some people claim they were fabless back then, and others claim they did in fact make some chips at Kagoshima.
Regarding the logo, I can take your word for that if you have lots of experience. It does look different to the logo on the genuine chip I have anyway. And it wouldn't make much sense for Yamaha to license something and not specify the logo precisely to match that of their company. So I take it as read that you are right on this.
maybe not fake, just sanded and relabeled by a very unfortunate chinese person in shanghai
We're waiting for you to try them out ;-) Even though they're faked, they could still be fully working clones. If so, I'd love to hear the differences.
I did try one of them out in the previous video! How do they sound to you?
To me they actually sound IDENTICAL to a genuine YM3812 from 1994, which I happen to own. I'll be making a video about the card that is from and the chip itself at some point on the channel. But I'm all FM'd out for now.
@@PCRetroTech They're probably genuine parts with fake labels. The Chinese used-chip wholesalers reflexively fake almost everything even when it's the real deal, so that the retail sellers can present them as "new old stock" etc. if they choose to, but of course they can still decide to sell them as used. It's the same reason they tin the legs. They don't bother considering the value of proper labeling on a genuine part -- the labeling is not informational, it's cosmetic.
You have to understand that in the Chinese business environment, superficial appearance is everything. Even absolute garbage will be gussied up to look fancy. If the kind of product they are selling often has bolts in a particular location, they will add fake bolts to the plastic mold and paint them with metallic paint. They will add fake vents solely for appearance' sake, often without even knowing what the vent was for originally.
This goes back centuries. There's some great videos on late 19th/early 20th century Chinese gunsmithing. Some of their gunsmiths were highly skilled craftsmen, but they didn't understand what the range numbers on the sight meant, but the customer wanted the numbers because good guns have numbers on them, so they'd put random numbers on the sight (even if the sight couldn't be adjusted!). Then they'd print random latin text on the side because good guns have english/french/german printed on them, etc. In the end you could have a crap gun, or a fantastic gun, depending on the skill level of the Chinese gunsmith, but they all had weird stamps and bullshit on them solely for appearance.
@@PCRetroTech I don't know how I missed that part! They've got a very similar sound, but the YM fake sounds a lot cleaner to me. I don't know which one I would prefer actually. And I will never understand why they don't sell these old parts used as they are. Why all the effort. Everyone who needs such parts knows by now that they're only available as used part.
@@NozomuYume Thanks for the insight. I do feel they are probably genuine parts with fake labels. That is what my ear tells me. Hard to be sure, but that's what the evidence says so far.
@@Shmbler Yeah for some reason the sound on video was a bit different to in person. I don't have really professional recording gear for one thing. I didn't play the definitely genuine OPL2. That will come on a later video. But I can't tell for sure if it is different to these relabeled parts. It *might* sound just a little cleaner on a couple of tracks, but it's so subjective. I'm probably fooling myself.
Yeah, that looks fishy. You could probably use a multimeter and compare readings with a known genuine chip. Even though they have been "refurbished", they may well be genuine or clones.
Hmm, and I just want 2 x 512KB ZIP RAM for my Cirrus Logic 5434 onboard graphics card... YES! Having 2MB IS important for me/my 486 😕
he found black in a black hole?