Tim! You nailed it, brother. It is so true. The unfortunate thing is, I have been doing this since the mid-80's and we (musicians) made more money then! See if an electrician would come over and work your house for "exposure" (LMAO). It's ridiculous that professional musicians get paid the same as weekend warriors (some of them that shouldn't be playing live at all!). Thanks so much for your video. Great commentary and well delivered. I worked full-time teaching and gigging before Covid... and, well that changed everything too. You've got my subscription. All the best.
Thanks for your comment. All the pro’s that have responded to my recent videos all get it. Imagine a plumber showing up at your house to do some work. He spends hrs at your home and you offer him pizza and a beer oh and I’ll tell my friends who also own homes all about you!! Exposure Haha
That’s kind of elitist to say that some weekend warriors shouldn’t be playing at all, I’m sure the first day you picked up the instrument you were world class. However as a lover of live music I support you folks and think you should get paid what you deserve. How do we help you people out ?
Didn't have to compete with DJ's. Live music was dominating. I will say, the bands were actually better back then though... Musicianship, songs, harmonies, etc.
This isn’t an Ontario, Canada issue; it’s like that everywhere. I once had a restaurant in Ventura, California ask me to perform. I asked how much they’d pay. I was told by the owner that he wouldn’t pay, that he believed that artists have a gift and were being selfish if they didn’t share it with the world - you know, for free. I told him that I thought restaurants should share their culinary gift with the world and that they should be sharing it for free, too - otherwise THEY’D be selfish. Right?
Yup, playing music is lovely...great for the soul. The business itself is among the worst of all professions. The cleaning lady that comes to our house gets $35 an hour with absolutely no training. Being in the arts requires all artists to take a vow of poverty. Its just how it is. The best approach is to be a weekend warrior. Become educated in a field that pays decently even if its not your first career choice. Gig on occasion with no expectation of fair pay. Enjoy every note and when Monday rolls around roll up your sleeves and earn your living wage all the while knowing you've got some cool dates on the calendar. It is what it is.
There's no money in ALL of Canada for live music. Its over has been for a while. It doesn't matter how fucking good you are. And the people that do come out want to watch some jack off press play on a Apple playlist. Music is now all but valueless.
@PhilthyCasual the payoff is soo big if you make it.. I suppose u gotta pay to play to cut out the non serious which maybe why there's a lot of good players out there going nowhere
I just enjoy writing and recording music in my basement nowadays.. Playing all the instruments myself. Sure, there's no pay, but it's way more enjoyable and satisfying.
The fact that I had to "ditch" live shows and switch to online marketing as an Ontario musician was THE move I had to make to survive, and the fact that this video exists is no coincidence to the situation
The mistake is expecting a recreational activity to be a livelihood. Play music, or hockey, or golf because you want to. When you no longer enjoy it, you move on to something else.
Hey Tim --- great video. I'm an "old-timer" who grew up in the '60s and '70s when live bands played across Canada. Almost every small town had bars with live music, and every city had numerous bars and clubs for every kind of music. Bands and singles acts made a great living traveling across the country from coast to coast. Many of our most famous bands like Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks who became The Band, the Guess Who and BTO, you name it --- travelled back and forth playing live in clubs and honing their skills. Now today in 2024, it's the exact opposite. Live music is virtually dead in Canada. The big cities like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal etc. have only a few clubs left because real estate developers have taken over. It's a real tragedy and a whole generation of musicians and young people don't know what they're missing.
Former drummer here (must change that avatar) and still have 2 kits ,must sell my Premier Sigina Maquis in silver sparkle. My last gig was in Nov 2013 and considering I was a 'Drumaholic' I'm surprised how much I don't miss it! There was less money offered from about 2005 and bar owners, Weddings planners and booking agents tried to knock my fee down all the time. Bars suck. I've been recording guitar, keys, vocals and write melodic songs and love it.
Spent the last seven years in Nashville. Everything Tim is saying is true. But, just since 2016, the cost of living skyrocketed, cost of parking in downtown Nashville got expensive, the traffic is insane, it's rough! You get a touring gig as a hired gun - you can endure a ton of dysfunction and nonsense. For example - they give you the setlist, you bust your ass while putting anything else on hold, then randomly two weeks later, the decide to give you an "updated" setlist with all different songs you've never played. You can burn yourself out and exhaust yourself without even seeing it come. In general there's a lack of regard not only for musicians but also musicians towards other musicians as well.
I was also a virtuoso guitarist, somedays practicing 8 hours a day. When I was 22, I slowly started to give up the hole thing after I got a full time job (in a different field). There is no money in music, what you see on TV, the superstars, they are the small shiny part of a huge industry. If you want to make a living as a musician, you have to teach, which can be as soul killing as any other full time job. Dealing with parents, missing payments, missing classes. There is not much respect for a music teacher either. Do it for fun, but don't expect much from it.
I am a full time musician for over 35 yrs. I teach I do clinics, gigs, tours, recordings, TH-cam etc. but you are correct it’s all great until it just isn’t anymore. I’m almost 60 so close to being at the end of my tenure. It’s had its moments of joy and despair. It’s certainly not glamorous, lol. Hearing yourself on the radio is cool though.
@@TR-oh6qf My experience also, ten years teaching in private music school guitar. The stress trying to keep students interest, kids mostly arent that into guitar, just another hobby among others. Back in the day if wanted the recording you'd be trying to catch it from radio with cassette tape, go to library or buy the album. Now if you tell kid its prolly online for "free". Too much work, no interest at all. Everythings too easy, except the actuall learning. Think I got somewhat burned out. Of course theres that few ones thats really nice to teach, usually adults, not kids.
On top of that - music seems to be being made by a lot of people as a hobby using a ton of easy tools in DAWs so they can put up all sorts of stuff into Spotify and other venues. (I'm guilty of some of this but do not at all try to make money at it). For true musicians who strive to buy gear, start a band, go out and tour - that hill to climb is very high. You need so many connections to make a little money. Do not think you will make a career in the music business - get a money-paying career going and do music on the side. Get to the point where you can gig-out and be ok if they don't even pay you. You're likely to make more money as a paid staff church worship band member than a rocking band trying to make it as an independent band.
.. Sad but TRUE. I made a living off of being an international touring "tribute" band through the 90's / 2015 ish. THEN downhill from there. Pretty much ALL GONE NOW.
An artist is born as a creative entity and therefore has to create, must create, until their demise. Come whatever may, but go into that battle valiantly and proud.
I love playing and being a creator .. I will never stop playing and learning.. no matter if I make money or not money always comes and goes. … I play because I love it !
Same reasons my nephews play hockey. There are even "old timer" leagues because they love hockey. How many golfers get paid to do what they love? Quite the opposite actually. A season's green pass can cost thousands!
It’s too late for me to do it for fun, lol.. I’m a life long pro player. I’m almost 60 not planning on getting a “real job” I’ve managed to be successful in other ways than gigs. Recording, teaching, coaching bands, TH-cam, judging competitions, drum clinics, music camps, masterclass’s, merchandise etc has kept me afloat. The live music scene is dead here! No gigs!
@@drumteacher43 How about not even being able to find and or AFFORD...a place to even practice your drums to get your chops up to par...so you can then starve by not getting any gigs??????? 😀 I can't find affordable places to even practice my drums. I would be in heaven just to find that and an affordable place to live here in California
Oh man could I ever relate to this video! As a musician in Ontario, I packed it in 10 years ago with bands and gigging and have never regretted my decision since! Wasn’t just about pay, but having to deal with musicians (who had alcohol/drug issues, brought in other problems, didn’t keep band agreements etc….). You know what I’m talking about Tim! 🎸🎶
Mate you typed the exact comment I was originally going to post, I 1000% agree. I thought I was the only sober one out there and don't miss the drama and mercenaries! LOL Respect!
I sure do. I’m going to do a video today or tomorrow about some band mate drunken /drug use stories. It was brutal in some cases. Singers falling off the stage police involvement with singer etc. just trying to get members to play their parts without being too drunk or high was a big task!
@@YesYouCANPlayGuitar I’ve been playing professionally ( part time ) for decades. Now in my 60s I’m still getting booked but it’s all gravy $$. No more hustling to play everyday. 2-3 times a month is good for me. There is no drama in my 2 bands. We’re mature enough to not let that crap be a ‘thing’. I will retire someday. Just looking for a good time/place to jump off. I thought Covid spelled the end for me but as soon as it ended, gigs started coming fast and furious. As long as I keep getting booked, I’ll keep playing gigs.
I witnessed these issues as well. Too much drama with the alcoholic spitting out his songs and congratulating himself afterwards. They would say, “are you counting my beers again “. What was practiced went sideways when the alcoholic came out. I loved the guys who truly enjoyed what we had worked for so long. Health reasons ended my long time love of playing music.
Foreigner musician living in Germoney since 2003. One of the 2 biggest problems here are 1. The practical non - existence of musicians willing to write own material in the underground circuit. All you can find if you are not able to come in a mainstream niche is all those ridiculous cover bands all of them playing the same boring repertoire (The Cranberries "Zombie", AC DC "Highway To Hell", Brian Adams "Summer of 69", "Seven nation Army" and some German Top 40 shit). 2 . The hobby musicians who does not respect themselves because they earn 3.000 euro monthly or maybe more as dentists, architects, whatever. They play for ridiculous cachets or gage........ Guess who will hire a pub owner when decide to have a night of live music? The professional musician or the amateur? (And many of them are really good!). Another factor (I lived 5 years in Munich) is that the neighbours don´t want loud music at night, so the urban local scene is actually dead (and that increased since the plandemie). My last concert in that city was in a local in the outskirts faraway, at the side of a . . . . . . ...... Korn plantation! 😄🤣😂😂😂 Actually I am surviving by giving guitar and bass lessons, and trying to do something in m,y little home studio until now without success. I made my own TH-cam Channel in order to see what happens. Conclusion: It´s not only in Canada.
Be sure that Germany was good for (Cover-/Top40-/"Tanzmusik")-Musicians and Bands! You could easily make 6-figures income a year just as a "unknown" average musician. My Father was a professional Musician/Entertainer (Alleinunterhalter), so were many of his friends, I myself have been in that business more than 30 (!) years - 20 of them as totally full time musician - , so were many of my friends. NOBODY except one lucky (?) Guy is still doing it fulltime if even still doing it at all! When you came to Germany in 2003 everything has started already to go down the drain! The EURO (2001), "Geiz ist Geil" Advertising (2003), Bank Crisis (2008/2009), Smoking prohibited (2009?), the "Internet" & Laptop DJ's, and...................Corona - That was the End! Glad (and sad same time) i made my way before into Federal Administration and just doing Music as a Hobby now, not to mention my enormous health issues that saddly appeared meanwhile.
@@Worlds_Worst_Guitarist As I told above, I lived 5 years in Munich. My appartment was 300 meters away from the appartment that Freddie Mercury owned (in Sendlinger Tor, apparently in the 70s and beginning of the 80s the city had a very active gay activity). Even Supertramp started their big time career there. Donna Summer, Giorgio Moroder and many other Disco Music artists recorded there, etc.
Thanks I needed to hear that! I have been fooling myself for a long time playing for peanuts thinking it was going to get better. Deep down I knew it was exactly as you described, but now I’m really thinking something needs to be done. People like live music, but you’re right. There is no respect for us musicians.
Went from being a DJ, to a promoter, to a producer, to a rapper/singer, to tying it all together and starting my own label and doing everything online, no more shows, no more touring, no more press runs, and making lifechanging money as an indy label operating as many artist names. You HAVE to innovate if you live here, I'm in the heart of downtown Toronto and there is a huge difference to collabs here vs the US for sure. We don't have the population or the money here to thrive off of it. We don't have the infrastructure to compete with livenation or to incubate new talent with proper foundations to making money in the music biz. In my reports, Canada accounts for
I know a drummer who plays with two three bands , they accomodate his schedule and he makes alot of money but thats because a drummer as good and reliable as him is hard to find
I even experienced being paid less than a bad five piece band if I was in a killer 4 piece band cause we had only four members. The bars would pay per man not per band. A complete joke. I had a bar manager say to me once when he paid us at the end of the weekend…” I thought you guys would have a bigger PA and lights for my place”. And he had a small place with a small area for the band. I told him that we wouldn’t have made any money if we brought a bigger show. He then said”I thought musicians didn’t care about making money”. He was a piece of shit. Never played there again.
Here is something I recently heard that will put what this dude is saying into perspective. As Canadians, we all know the band, Sloan, right? I listened to a podcast that featured Chris Murphy the other day...and what he said, blew my mind. In 2017, a year that he only did Sloan..and no side projects,....he only earned 37,000 dollars. So if a guy in one of Canada's biggest bands is only making 37,000 in a year, how do you think the average bar musician is doing?
@frankdiscussion2069 I'm not a fan of the Tragically Hip either. But their career is kind of sad. Huge in Canada..but couldn't do much elsewhere. I've always looked at them as a bar band that got lucky (in Canada, of course). Although, if you are a lyric person, I guess I can understand why they might appeal to you. But I am not a lyric person.
@shpeen8835 The best music payday I ever had was 800 CAD for playing 2 songs on acoustic guitar for a singer at a wedding. Other than that, I have gotten a lot of free beer. hehe.
@@michaelr.4878 ya the Hip were overrated by Canadians for sure. Good Canadiana lyrics though. Average at best musicianship . I used to be a hip apologist to anyone who put their music down… but as I got older, I just can’t take the vocals and the uninteresting music anymore. Didn’t age well for me… Saying all that - They have some excellent acoustic songs with meaningful lyrics no doubt…
The problem is "pay to play" venues are the norm throughout Canada (and the US). In _some_ other countries there are laws that prohibit "pay to play" and require all monies from ticket sales to go to the performers (with the venues expected to make a profit from alcohol sales). Japan is a good example of this, which is why some musicians will play a gig or two there every few years even if they aren't playing anywhere else, and why some musicians go to Japan to "start" their careers but end up never leaving.
I quit the road 30 plus years ago for this reason among others. We couldn’t afford to eat and we were good. So I became a weekend worrier and did alright. Now I play for free, locally, and for just the joy of playing. It’s much more satisfying now. I am lucky in that my day job, now retired, allowed me to buy the equipment I needed. My band mates are in the same situation and we all pal for strictly enjoyment now and we play for charities and local festivals that support our communities. I empathize with your experiences and I agree there is no money to be made in music here in Canada. On top of that, there has been a huge reduction in the number of people that go out to these venues. I don’t know the answer to this dilemma I just know it is what it is. Good luck to you and your mates
Musicians, Athletes, and Actors get into their field out of passion first. And if you are good, set up right, fortunate, right place right time right have the right support, business sense you could make a great living but you would be the lucky
I’ve only been to Nashville a couple times, I remember all the bands I saw had someone out in the crowd collecting tips in exchange for requesting the band cover a song. They’d literally huddle on stage for a few minutes and were so good they’d could basically figure out the song quickly and then play it. Cool idea but sad that incredible musicians like that have to do that. Oh, and in TO, all the places we pitched were pay-to-play. You had to buy 20 tickets and sell them on your own. They you’d have the honour of playing at 11.30pm on a Wednesday night in front of 3 people.
Best times was in the 80’s! Now, not worth it! Music scene, industry change so much, since the computer arrival and with the rap stuff, which to me sucks, I stop doing any shows long time ago! I still make music at home, for my pleasure and friends! I am full equipped, lots of synths, guitars, bass and play music to have fun, mostly like Kebu, but never outside my garage or house! I played in bars, venues, in the 80’s and 90’s, not anymore! Still having fun, but only for myself and friends!
That is exactly my experience. I am so greatfull now that I got to spend the entire 80’s touring and playing out full time. SO much fun! The bands were cool, the audiences were super cool, the music was great. Everyone was so good looking and had such a fun attitude. We got to be Rock Stars!!! Literally the entire scene is gone now. I stopped playing out a few years ago, and I’m having more fun than ever - but in a different way. I have my own complete home recording studio, with everything and all my dream instruments in it. I can wake up and practice, play, write and record 24 hours a day (and I do!) and create exactly the kind of music I like. It’s a learning and growing experience now. I do miss being the cool Rock guy on stage, but I am much happier over all, being settled down at home with a good steady life. But the decades of the 80’s? I wouldn’t give up those experiences and memories for anything.
@@kevinsturges6957 yes my friend! The 80’s were amazing, great music, great clothes, great spirit, great people!! As you can see you and me are not alone! Many wish they can still listen to 80’s music style! I get some people, not only in their 50 or 60 years old that would love to hear new music from this era! This music will never die! I am also interesting to know about other musicians like you who are still making this type of music!
Same here in B.C, biggest bands are cover bands Led Zeppagain, The Fab Four, BC/DC... lucky to get $100 each per band member a night for a gig, same pay as 50 years ago in the 1970s. In Canada there is not much respect for live music, people can be hostile & try to talk over you, ignore or not appreciate live music
I’ve been playing live since the late eighties until 2018. I’ve toured Canada lots and played every spot in Toronto, most of which are gone. I have a million stories and 0 dollars. I’d be happy to swap stories.
Yeah man you and I have been in the same boat. Stories are cool I’ll be doing more here on my channel!! Thanks for your comment it would be cool to chat
@@spagzs I just like music, I don't play it. I was the gas man on a car racing team for a couple years and some track owners in Ontario would make the drivers purchase a ticket for the event that they were the main attraction of. This wasn't an entrance fee to participate in the race, just a ticket to the race. I'm surprised there are not coin slots on the toilets in that province.
I'm a professional artist. I've known many musicians over the years and I am always thankful that I can work alone and at home. Good luck to my fellow musicians. I know it's difficult out there!
Our band gigged opening/middle billings in Toronto fairly frequently in the early/mid-2000s. At the end of the day, we (too) grew tired of driving for hours, parking and playing for $20 and a couple of drink tickets, lol. We definitely had some fun and met some great people along the way, but yeah... It gets old quick and people drop off.
I was in a top 40 cover band in Ontario late 80s early 90s, if you were good and had good agents helping you cou;ld be busy three days a week all year make a decent living if you weren't dumb with your money. I remember banking half my money I made because most of the time you got a free room and people buying you drinks here and there and sometimes food if the management or owners liked you. The guys that drank and did alot of heavy drugs didn't do so well. Nowadays there's virtually no professional bands going town to town each week like we did.
Entertainment costs are the first expense to be cut from a consumers budget when things get tough. I really enjoy watching live performances but it has become too expensive to attend a concert. So now I will stream recorded live video of shows and concerts at home on my big screen tv and surround sound system where I can avoid the traffic and crowds. I control the sound, sit in a comfortable recliner and my bar and bong are near by. All at a fraction of the cost to attend a show. The next shoe to drop will be when Artificial Intelligence takes over the creation and performance of music merging with holograms.
Pro musician from SF Bay Area for 45 years. I've got recording credits including gold record and publishing by major band. I've toured around the world a few times and I still continue to record and produce music to this day. I'll probably keep doing this until I go to my grave because I love it so much. Here's the deal: the most anyone can make on a standard gig here in Bay Area (bar gig, restaurant gig, shitty festival spot) is $150USD. Now, every now and again you'll make over $500 for a corporate show. Maybe you got $1K for a NY gig. But those are very, very few and far between and those type of gigs really are soul-sucking-do-it-for-the-money work anyway. Now...$150USD is the MOST for a standard non-corpo gig. If $150 is MAX, the minimum is fucking zero pay (more on this later). Somewhere in between is $50 to $100 bucks and is what you will be offered especially on the 'odd nights' (M-Th) at a pub or restaurant. Ironically, some of the meals you see served are now $50 or higher and a table tab that can be $100 easy in the so-called 'wealthy' Bay Area with tech company employees (not true anymore, pandemic shuttered a lot of businesses for good). So...the cost of ONE MEAL is what you are paid for 3 hrs of work. Fuck. The reason why local gigging musicians are sucking is because of two things: 1.) The restaurant/pub/bar/festival work DON'T WANT TO PAY MUSICIANS A DECENT RATE. They want to make money and live, non-recorded music played by real people is a LUXURY to them. They simply are unwilling to pay for labor costs of live music (the thing that attracts people to the venue) beyond basic licensing fees for having a stage, sound equipment and open area and bar to accommodate live entertainment (musicians, deejay, karaoke). So...the deejays and karaoke folks are getting paid the same rate as a group of live musicians who end up getting the lowest per person fee. Standard performance spaces simply don't want to pay beyond what they willing to afford for live entertainment. 2.) The musicians ACCEPT THE LOW RATE OF PAY. We all know that gigs employ live musicians who are not professional and do not rely on this as the sole source of income. Sometimes these musicians will perform for the lowest rate possible (a can of beer and some chips all night long) or straight up for FREE (they want to get exposure). This shit here is the single most pervasive aspect of the economics of live performance in local venues. Folks who want to perform at a professional level simply cannot compete with this crap. There will always be a time when a professional band is sacked in favour of another mob who will come in and play for virtually nothing. They replace professional bands and the establishment only cares that bodies pile into the place so they can keep operating. To my mind, the musician unions are ineffective because the establishments can book whomever they want at any time and for any deal and as long as people go ahead and play for free, the professional musician will suffer. And musician unions really only are useful to large organized enterprises like the symphony, opera or ballet orchestras here in the US. The only solution is for something to happen that will give the local stage performer a decent minimum wage for every show. The only thing I've racked up in my mind (i've thought about this for years) about this that can be effective is some kind of legislation to improve the lot of the musician; a mandatory minimum wage must be set for any live performance in any venue that makes money featuring live performance. It doesn't matter what level musician and can include deejays and karaoke people (ANY live performer on a stage). EVERY performer gets paid a minimum rate with the max rate being negotiated for popular and profitable live musicians. Something like this would eliminate the spectre of musicians who are willing to play for free and actually support the professional folks who consider this a way to make a living. What say you? BTW, i've seen the dude you talked about. It's too freaking depressing to watch. I only saw a couple of things and stopped. I couldn't bear listening to the motherfucker complain about how fucked shit is about live performing. It's too painful. Even with your own vid, I stopped about 4 mins in and started this rant. In any case, i've been to Toronto and it's an awesome city. It's too bad that the conditions for musicians there are similar in other places. Good luck to you, bro.
Wow great and educating comment and I agree except for the badbrad part, lol I love the guy! I think the negative aspects need to be discussed which is why Brad inspired me to do this video. The info you talked about is the same here maybe even lower pay. The “work for beer or feee bands have killed it for a lot of pro’s here as well. I teach, ( 40-50 students weekly) I record, I do band consulting, I do judging of music competition and work for various studios. So I make a living I’m just not gigging anymore after 35 yrs of live performance. The music industry has dropped down so much. Teaching helps me cope. Thanks for sharing
@@J3unG a fine rant indeed. I would add, in France they have an artist status. You get a monthly wage, there are parameters yes, but the question of how it changes the boat, and if it can be rocked arrises. I have been developing a loop sample library that I am going to launch, but Ai seems to suck the inspirational wind out of artists sails. But that is another story. The other variable is TH-cam is grandstanding people attention away from live music. Such strange times. Even busking, people have no change on them anymore!
@@drumteacher43 Thanks for your kind response. Apologies for the long rant. Your post had a triggering effect on me today and I guess is a delayed response to the darkness of that Brad dude from Nashville. Yeh. I can't stand him because (to me) he's just weeping into the camera about his music problems. By the second post it got too much. The algorithm probably led me to you and I needed to respond because you spoke directly about the earning issue and so I directed my ire towards that. I've been to Toronto and was impressed by that city. Is there a chance an idea like a minimum wage for musos can be organized and heard by the city council? In Cali, there is such a thing as a fast food minimum wage which is set at $20 hour for folks who work in hospitality preparing and selling burgers, fried foods, etc... primarily for takeaway. The minimum wage for the rest of the state of California is now $17/hr and is adjusted per city with the state, so one city could be higher than another but minimum is $17USD unless you work at McDonald's or Tim Hortons or Starbucks which is $20. Cheers!
@@J3unG The problem I see is that an artist minimum wage could be just another disincentive against using live music at all. An artist living wage could be better.
I appreciate the video as a patron of many pubs and clubs over the decades. The market dictates that it's not for professionals who love their craft and are great at it.
Hey Tim interesting watch and some interesting comments. I too am a drummer in Ontario, but also have done solo acoustic/singer gigs too. Essentially, I bought a used PA and wanted to reimburse myself for it over a summer. Most acoustic gigs were sourced by a booking agent and paid me $150 per show. It's low pay, but even with gas, my $500 used PA system was covered after 4 gigs and the rest is gravy, so I am overall happy. I dare not ever consider what my hourly wage worked out to :) One thing no one mentioned here when complaining about low pay rates is that bars need to make money to be viable, and only musicians that get bums in seats can make that happen. I am in a 5 pc band and we will play gigs for $350 as we want to get better, and a practice halls only takes you so far. I understand from bars perspective as a lot of meals and beers would need to be sold just to clear that fee. The money was much better in the 80s and 90s and it is only a labour of love right now. Not sure why I still do it and I do question myself sometimes when loading up my car with drums, speakers, and monitors, burning $40 in gas to come home with $80 after so many hours. Luckily, I spent many years in the retail music industry, then spent many years teaching elementary school music, so I am can look back on a music career that has been more fruitful than many other friends that are hobbyists. Runners run, fighters fight, and musicians perform, even when it doesn't really make financial sense.
There's no money in bar gigs where I live (China), the bars struggle to make a profit. We still play them but it's basically a free night out for us (food and drinks) with a small tip. However there is money in corporate events, they're a bit harder for us to reach because we don't have the proper work visas, but they still happen. Weddings and private events can be pretty good too, but all in all it's not enough to do this full time . And of course forget about playing your own material, crowd pleaser covers are the way to go. One business model that works quite well here is booking the entire bar for an event and selling tickets at a reasonable price with a profit share with the bar. We do it all inclusive, unlimited drinks, cost of drinks is deducted from the intake before the split. Works really well and pays way more than a regular bar. Surprisingly, the past events we've done have all sold out.
I’m 83 been a human juxbox all my life I think I’ve spent 90,000 hrs of my life dedicated to music .Had a band in 60s playin beer joints and gave that up due to working steady in Westinghouse where I retired from 35 yrs suffering for my sanity.Tried Nashville in 60s came close as a song writer as some of the biggies did listen to my songs (Glasser Bros published Gentle On My Mind for Glen Campbell) Floyd Lightn Chance played stand up bass on Hank Williams Your Cheating Heart and recorded with Everley Bros ,Conway Twitty ,Chet Atkins ,Patsy’s Cline etc.Bottom line I play my music strictly for the love of it now a days ..Yep You Tube & 2 months ago AI …..Don’t give up guys
Hi Tim, Thanks for this, I totally agree. Our (4WD) Band now that we are retired from our Career professions just practice and play 2-3 gigs a year. We are a 5 piece that plays the classic rock hits really really well however we are considered a fairly large band for todays venues. I've used AI to generate a slick promo package which incorporates both studio and live performance samples and promote through Facebook still have a 3% return interest from proprietors. We even offer to generate the promotional material no charge....hours of work! anyhow long story short , do it as a hobby to keep your mind sharp, take a section of the garage and sound proof and insulate ,,,beer fridge and forget about! Cheers Mighty Q of Four Wheel Drive South Western Ontario. BTW As a footnote Rick Beato has an excellent TH-cam episode about the music industry as started to change in the late eighties and the evil of syndication as it stifled creativity.
Thanks very much for your comment. I’m almost 60 yrs old now and it’s been an incredible journey of touring and playing local, literally thousands of gigs! I just teach at my home and at a music school now. I also record for whomever hires me as well as drum clinics, band coaching and even judging music and drumming festivals and events. I’m still busy in the music world just no more gigs!!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A few additional thoughts that your video brought to mind: 1. It seems that the old model of keeping a dedicated band together and working full time is rarely viable today. Even in the 1970s I thought that I could see the difficulty of making a living that way, especially when I met older musicians who could not afford medical/dental care. I did the full time giggling thing for a short time before I ended up teaching music in public school for over thirty years and gigged on the side. That was challenging and a compromise, but I loved working with junior high kids and found many ways to stay creative and inspired. When I retired at 59 I have dedicated my time working on song writing and recording original material, which all I ever really wanted to do in music anyway. 2. It seems to me that the modern version of making it in music is no longer becoming a rock star. It has become earning a tenured position teaching in a college or university, probably more in the jazz and classical arenas. 3. Someone like you obviously over the years has had to develop entrepreneurial and people skills. You might look at your performing years as training for all that you do next. Your TH-cam channel is interesting to me. I subscribed. 4. Small might be more viable. The busiest act that I know personally today is a husband and wife team that does a duelling piano show. Very flexible, good vocal chops, good audience rapport, large covers repertoire, and lots of corporate gigs. That isn’t exactly a band, but they are paying their mortgage. There was a western Canadian guitarist (the late Gaye Delorme) who I think had a roster of pickup musicians in every centre and a repertoire of tunes that allowed the groups to do a lot of improvisation. That seemed to keep costs low and kept him working. (It’s funny, but I jammed with him on stage twice, once in 1984 and again about 20-25 years later. We played exactly the same tunes!)
I've watch the live music scene in Toronto, which was one of the best in the world, collapse over the years. In the 90's I was blessed to have seen so many stellar bands and musicians in Toronto and Montreal, life enriching experiences, fond memories I will cherish for the rest of my life, now the music scene has been gutted and I think our society is the worse for it. I play Jazz and I know I most likely will never earn a living at it but I still play because the art deserves to survive and be heard. Just sad that I can't dedicate more to the music because it's not economically viable in this day and age.
As Gene Simmons said "the record is dead" record companies won't take a chance on a new band look at Rush almost $400,000 in the red until their 4th album, 2112 and the rest is history, they wouldn't get that chance nowadays. Corporations and governments had a hand in the destruction as well. Q107 couldn't wait to spin the latest local talent, then you went downtown bought the record and drove up the street to see the band. Now Q107 just plays classic rock so that hype is gone. Every Toronto high school was 95% white and 95% liked rock so we had concerts, where students got exposure to the bands. My old high school of 2200 students had 32 black students, now it's 1500 students with 300 white students, I think we'd have fights and guns instead of rocking fun. Also record companies and radio stations don't want to play an album start to finish, I know Bon Jovi has huge fights with Apple iTunes about promoting the entire album not just the radio hit. Sorry to say the kids will never get the thrill of listening to a classic album start to finish unless they party with one of us boomers. The days of Dark Side of the moon, Who's Next, Back in Black, Rumours, Boston, Crime of the Century, Brothers in Arms, 2112, etc. those days are gone. A few kids I know have entered the business, the bands don't pay, you either make money on merchandise or move to the mixing board
Another thing that has killed the music business is the lost art of organic songwriting. Everything is loops and beats. Everything is the same tired chord progressions. People are numb to what they hear. It’s all about quantity, not quality. I was pleasantly surprised when I heard Will Smith’s daughter’s new song. She used dissonant melodies and interesting chord progressions. If more artists took a chance at being unique, maybe the music industry could stand a chance of redeeming itself.
@ronwilliams1094 Yep, I do that and will not compromise with any AI or automation. Good songwriting is important way beyond the technical aspects of playing!
Mind-blowing. I had absolutely no idea it was that bad today, for musicians. It's a TRAGIC situation. I'm not one but I feel your angst about it. Thanks for expressing it.
Yeah, it's over. I played in rock groups, jazz trios, etc., for 40+ years. Forget it. I just quit the last rock band, I said just don't call me anymore, sorry nothing personal but I'm not dragging equipment around, rehearsing, and all the rest to play for a few people staring at their phones for 75 bucks. Screw it.
HI TAM FROM AUSTRALIA. ITS THE SAME HERE. ONLY THING WORTH SPENDING TIME ON IS CREATING NEW MUSIC AND RECORD , MARKET IT ALL YOUR SELF WITH YOUR OWN RECORD COMPANY. FOR FUN HAVE A JAM AT YOUR PLACE FOOD ,WINE, MUSIC, JUST ENJOY MUSIC WITH PEOPLE WHO LOVE TO PLAY.
In florida I lose jobs at club restaurants because I do too good of a job entertainment and they never leave thier table and then the club loses money by not having the turnover. What a way to lose gigs. They always say your awesome but we need the turnover to make. Crazy. I am forever a lifer on the streets playing and I'm doing very well and booked year round. Peace brother keep your head high . Music will come back around for you. Never give up.
Never play a restaurant if you're a musician. The incentives do not align. Real musicians do not play dinner music and provide aural wallpaper for a dining experience.
played a gig for first time in 30 yrs and got the same $100 i got back in late 80's. - yes its broken Quality costs money - no one values the time and expensie of good gear , good playing , good signing, and we wont talk about investment in PA gear
Yup, it’s sad but true! I just mentioned to another commenter. I got offered a small tour with a band and attempted negotiations over money, bonuses perks etc they wouldn’t have it. It was “take it or leave it” so I left it. Not wasting my time and effort making money for other people. You can get a gig with a name Nashville act gig pays $150-300 a show.. peanuts. 🥜
I don’t get it. We toured for 3 years in the mid 1980’s BC and Alberta mostly with a few excursions farther east and South of the border. We always got $3500 to $4000 per week. Production costs were big because we carried a huge Martin P.A. And 46 1000 watt par 64s. 5 ton truck and van. Accommodation was always looked after. 2 crew (sound and lights) and we usually were quite comfortable. Depending if you saved or just partied. Back then there were so many clubs you could book 8 weeks at a time and take a week off at home. Sorry for the state of live music today. You barely see it anywhere anymore. Can’t believe what has happened.
Yup I did tours like that and even much bigger. The scene has been wiped out here. One of my students is touring right now in Europe and they are doing well! Check out The Commoners on TH-cam. Adam is my student
Recreation, hobbies, activities you have a passion for are all for your personal enjoyment. The time you spent learning piano for example, was an end in itself not a means to an end. It's not a waste of time if that's what you enjoy doing. Why should you expect to get paid? It's not a career path, you spent those hours because you wanted to. The same for all recreational activities. I have four nephews who were up early mornings to hockey practise before school, parents taking them to other towns, paying money for equipment and hotels, etc. and never expected to get paid for their time and effort (a few make it to the NHL). Many are still playing in "old timer" leagues because they enjoy it. None I know of whine because of the 000's of hours they've spend in the hockey craft as a waste of time. It's one of their passions.
I've played semi-professionally across Ontario for over 30 years. I took a day job years ago because I knew that I wasn't going to achieve my financial goals just on gigs alone, and I'm not into teaching music as an income option. So perhaps I'm classified as the "weekend warrior". But I'll tell you this...I have never undercut or played for wings & beer, I have always had desire and passion to play ( and hope to be able to go full-time financially), I have studied music at the Royal Conservatory, I always do my homework for gigs, and I take it seriously just as any "full-time pro". I just saw the writing on the wall back when I started in the early 90's...the money wasn't going to be great doing the type of gigs I wanted to do, and the effort required to make a sustainable living was still going to be a gamble. And yes, the money hasn't really changed over the years around the GTA...at least for the standard bar gig. It's a shame. The generally accepted rate of pay for a band ($300 -$500 as you mentioned) is the big problem. I don't need to take into account things like gas and parking at my day job (my expenses to get to work) simply because the rate of pay is much HIGHER than a bar gig. It's terrible, and discouraging for those who would love nothing more than to make their full living doing something they love. My hat's off to those slugging it out full-time in music. I just can't pay a mortgage or will be able to send my kid to college playing a few $150 gigs every week. That's the harsh reality.
Most cities have a surplus of musicians in venues with decreasing patronage due to the cost of living, combined with changing tastes in live music as well as an ageing demographic. It is nothing more than a function of these attributes of economics.
True, and I agree, but the live music scene has to be generational to some extent. Older folks don’t go out as much as young people, so the new young people have to support the music scene. It’s like passing the torch from older to younger viewing generations!
@@drumteacher43 there need to be more early evening weekday (7-10pm) and matinee afternoon weekend gigs (1-5pm) to appease the older folk who just dont want to be out late anymore, but still love live music, and generally can pay a decent cover $ cost.
There used to be a thing called the "musicians union" that provided some protection from being ripped off but the players had to pay dues and that added to the cost. Then bands started playing without contracts and that really screwed things up for the dues paying folks. When I toured around we had an agency that booked the gigs and our contracts were union. It's a really sad situation now. The only people making money are real estate salesmen and brokers. Bars have to make their profits from alcohol sales and drunk drivers are an inevitable side effect of that market place. Maybe if there was a healthier outlet for performing artists the promoters could pay a little more, but it sure seems that all the nails are in the coffin now.
Tim, I'm a drummer as well. From the age of 15 to 24, nothing but music mattered to me. I understand the overall frustration of not being able to make a living in music. BUT, I know drummers that are playing gigs and making a living in music. Paul DeLong, Jeff Salem (my old drum teacher). Both these guys teach music and play in multiple bands and hustle. Jeff is an entrepeneur as well. They will both admit that making money playing drums isn't enough. You must do more than that. I play on weekends for fun but I also own a automotive repair business to pay the bills and provide for my family. I had to learn in my early twenties that music wasn't going to pay the bills let alone buy a house or start a family. It was a hard pill to swallow when I was younger, but I'm happy to play live occationally these days. Things are tough all over, unfortunately. Peace.
6:46 In the early 70's I was booked 2 years in advance and could pay monthly rent with 1 gig. Now after 40000 plus hours of experience and education a gig will cover the costs related to doing the gig.
There's a lot of amazing musicians in Ontario and I get the sense that they always say you have to be willing to relocate. People perhaps also assume musicians are getting paid. Sometimes well I guess we gotta be happy getting food or beer. But it seems that you got to be able to approach it in another way and that the scene is now different. Still I think it's worth figuring it out. As they say I wasn't in it just for the money yet I think it's really an individual kind of figuring it out through the years and realizing when they should level up. Or simply start asking for more. I find when I don't ask I get pleasantly surprised. An invitation which led to this gig which lead to meeting this person. Serendipity. The Journey. Still I'm glad you are coming out and saying this. It's not an easy journey but if you love it. Keep on keeping on. Cheers
You're absolutely right. In Canada, things been on hold is shity, which is why I've had to put a pause on my DJ gigs at clubs and even delivery service for appliances. Can you believe they're paying a trucking company $40.00 per stop? Let's break it down - if you handle 15 stops, that $600.00 helper only takes home $160.00 to $180.00, while the driver makes $200.00 to $230.00. You have to take out fir diesel and pay the truck its like you in the -. These guys not only have to install washers but also sometimes strip down a refrigerator just to get it into a house. And here's the kicker - most customers end up calling for property damage. Guess who has to foot the bill? That's right, the helper and the driver. So, imagine if the damage amounts to $1,500.00 and you receive six reports of damages - you'll end up working for free. It's a tough situation with Canada hitting a roadblock, but we'll get through it. I perhaps. Cut eyes
My band had its second tour booked for 2020 with 12 dates $750 guaranteed per show. Pandemic crushed that. we spent the next 14 months every Sat playing the same 8 songs in the jam room waiting for things to open back up and eventually I snapped.
You are absolutely right, I live in Toronto the music scene sucks, I've been a musician for 35 years and the money never cover any of my expenses even in wedding gigs. been there done that, I made most income in music production home studio.
It was great in the 70's up until the mid 80's. All of the great places to play are all gone now. The shit Bands didn't have a chance. No one would hire them.
We should all aspire to lift each other up. Things have changed, the model has changed. I grew up playing in the greater Toronto area in the late 90's and 2000's so I fully understand what you are saying... We have to view live shows as special, but not the be all end all with social media being as lucrative as it is now. I do appreciate your video man. Cheers
Nigel in Canada🇨🇦 a band mate of mine (Gregg Dechert) stayed a full time 🎵🎶 musician he ending up playing with David Gilmour and Uriah Heep i chose the "work force' and retired as a truck 🚛 driver we both now are back where we started no richer or poorer
@@Nigel-ry1po Dechy was with Bad Co. for a while as well. He gave music lessons for a while then moved to Southampton. Brian (Helix) was also a Listowel man but he and Dechy never played together. Brian toured, records, etc. and at the end of it all he returned with $20 and a pack of smokes in his pocket to show for it. Last I heard he was selling stained glass windows over the internet and living in Ilderton.
Everyone loves music but ticketed venues are expensive. I agree, but the theatre music scene which I’m involved in with various tribute bands is thriving and affordable, The bar scene costs about nothing to go see for the actual entertainment, but not all the bands are up to snuff but still I ask people to support live music
@drumteacher43 Absolutely! I was in a couple of local bands that would sell, but we never really made any money. I was speaking more of the serious players who count on larger spaces. Ticket prices are hard, and limit a more general audience. I like your content!
The Canadian music scene has always been lame. All the biggest (Canadian) artists had to go States side to get signed (with some exceptions of course). However, that's all in the past. The music industry has changed. The coveted record deal has become a thing of the past. Not to mention, it's becoming the norm for bands not being entirely 'live'. A TH-camr, called Andy Edwards (great channel) had a modern metal drummer on his channel, she got kicked out of her band because she insisted on playing live at gigs! Rick Beato has discussed this as well. If you want to make money playing music, social media is your best bet. That's a shame, because great music comes from collaborating with other musicians. Anyway, sign of the times ....
the bar business is really tough in the US right now. pay, insurance, regulations, rent, and all that stuff are squeezing the bars dry they are not making any money either my friend. there was a time when you could gig a lot more bc there were a lot more bars that had bands and are making money. bar owners in the old days paid everyone under the table in cash there were no regulations/licenses/taxes like now. in chicago they now require 2 weeks paid vacation on the first day for hourly workers for example. so bars are trying desperately to arrange their business around this stuff. They fail, and then we're left with big corporate places like House of Blues who can afford an HR department to manage everything
first thing to go is the entertainment budget, I played at a restaurant every weekend last summer & they broke even, didn't make a profit. No live music this year...
Just want to add my five cents. I used to play in famous bands in Latvia(former ussr) then played in Germany for a while, ended in Toronto, Canada In nineteenth. I tried to analyze then, why the westeners don't want to pay for life music anymore. But while my visiting Europe recently I found the situation the same if not worse. I think the reason is the degrading of the traditional society and its values on one side, and the constant cost increase of the physical aspects of everyday's life for absolute majority of the people. Life music is not a priority for those struggling for survival. Most of us these days literally work for food and shelter. Back in old days in Eastern Europe we spent only 10-20 percent on these necessities. As far as I know similar situation was in Canada and in so called " developed world". In order to compete with USSR the west elites did not squeeze their working class the way they do now. Since social system of the Eastern block was demolished, there is no more competition between the social systems. Degrading of all the aspects of culture is so obvious on both sides of the swing now.
Ah yes, Hamilton in the 90s and 2000's...great scene of starving musicians, they supported each other though. I got it out of my system as guitarist for a few years, did Rocksearch and NXNE and went on to other things. I miss the old La Luna and Hudson, saw some great shows. Always was treated well by the Honest Lawyer, they were good to the bands at the time. I found that at that time you got one booking at a bar, but if you didn't fill the place with your friends, you never got a second show, didn't matter how good you were. I always kept a day job so i was bleary-eyed and tired but could pay the rent. Live music is definitely a young person's game, when you have less responsibilities and playing for beer is okay. I am glad I did it though - I don't have many great memories about the different jobs I've had over the years, but thinking of the crazy times we had in the band always makes me smile.
Respect for musicians disappeared with Napster. When the public saw they could get what musicians make for free that was the end. And Spotify is not much better. The publics attitude towards musicians has changed. Back in the 80’s and 90’s etc even bar bands got respect. And got paid too. Because people had to leave their house to go,out and get entertained. Not anymore. Most are on their devices getting entertained for free several times a day or even an hour. So how the f€&k is a live band gonna impress them? No chance. Musicians spend thousands on gear, lessons, rehearsals, parking,gas etc etc and the venue wants to throw $100 at you? It’s a mess. And what makes it worse is there are some musicians that will accept that crappy pay. That’s what allows these venues to offer the shit pay etc.
It's all very disturbing, but there are still some very dedicated, true music fans around. However, that doesn't mean they'll be willing to spend much if anything for it! 😢😢
You are correct!! I'm a guitar player of 30 plus years from London Ontario area, I had a 3 piece band for a very long time, traveling Ontario, but we ended up splitting because there were barely ended gigs left to even bother. We used to actually make decent money and a living, but unfortunately Canada is not what it once was and it's depressing!
Just telling the truth there, Tim. It would behoove others to listen. I believe that it was Joan Baez (or another folk legend from the 60s) who responded to the question: What’s the number one advice you’d give an aspiring songwriter or musician? Her response (and I’m paraphrasing): Get a job and keep it. Write, sing, and play when you can, but for your mental health and family, always make a living. I live in Nashville and have written, recorded and toured from here for close to 25 years. Unless you are the rare victim of the lightning strike, you will wreck your family and resent your dreams. Some know when to say, “Uncle,” some don’t. I didn’t give up, but I knew there wasn’t a lightning strike for me by my 40s. Thank God I had an education and now use music daily in the classroom . Still writing, still enjoying the process, still married and making a living. Thanks for being honest. You may be saving some families and the mental health of many dreamers😂
Write your own SONGS! It doesn’t matter how good you are as a hired gun or how long you practice or what you think you’ve done. It’s about the songs those who write the songs make the money. As a side man, you can’t expect anything more.
I totally agree with you, Been playing guitar in bands since I way 15 and im 54 now,never stopped. Always had a job to back me up.Played in original bands, and recorded CDs .Past 6 years been playing in cover band from 70s,80,s and 90s.We spend 4 hours b4 a show,setting up our sound board ,speakers etc,then our light's then sound checks.We play for 4 hours then the 2 hour tear down.Then we make around 100 -200 dollars a piece, between 4 people. Lol Thats the also the Cleveland ohio scene.But you have to love it and enjoy it.
Great video - I also had to put the breaks on a full time career. It almost got to the point where I was resenting music due to not being able to afford basic things. The demand isn't there, field is oversaturated, and cost of living is super high. I will play until I die but in order for me to truly love it, I need other things to fill my financial criteria.
Music equipment is a luxury not a necessity same for the performance of it compared to a plumber or electrician. Unless you’re doing something for the love of music you better have something that’s completely different in style that surpasses everyone else or play at home or for friends.
I disagree, music is good for the soul. It guides you through hard times, good times and everything in between. Music makes you cry, laugh, scream and of course happy. Equipment is the means to convey that emotion to people! Performance is the only way to truly convey those feelings!
We are back into the kitchen. Bring the piano close, make an ugly stick, brushes on the pail, guitar and wash tub bass. Take some video, make cards and go around Rosedale. House concerts are a thing. The old model of bars and pubs seem to be morphing into a more community minded thing. I can relate: ''unless you have somebody supporting you'' [to quote the great Johnny Vidocavich].... As drummers, we were always working. The hustle has now indeed changed. Thanks for this.
@@drumteacher43 a johnny fan! I managed to have a private lesson with him in NOLA. Was surreal beyond. On topic, I feel as a muso we have to embrace the originality of art in general. The path of a musician is a bit different than an artist that writes and has a global concept to share. I have had my toes in both creeks. Playing, touring etc, but also writing and recording. I think if I would rewind the tape, I would have focused on original stuff more, than being a hired gun. That said, they both feed the same pot.
I made this decision back in 2012... after a long road of experience. Unless it is a festival gig and pays decent, no more for this guy. Just record, write and keep doing my own passion on my own terms and happier not losing money. Miss the gigs but it has not been the same in a very long time for sure! 👊🧡👍
Hey Tim, I stumbled across your video here. First off, let me say you are a top-level drummer. As for the life in music, I feel your pain. You can't make a living by gigging alone, teach drums online, do courses, teach part time at a music college, be a session drummer. Make albums and sell them online. Get that band back together for a reunion concert and stream online for a fee. Multiple income sources while you sleep. A full-time life in music business is hard. I applaud you for doing it so many years full time. Did you see that documentary about Anvil?
Thanks so much!! Everything you listed and more I already do ( except band streaming) I have up to 50 in person students I do session work and I also coach bands and lots more. I make a living I just don’t do bar or low end gigs and I quit the Toronto scene to many hassles and musicians have become targets there’s yes I saw the Anvil documentary. Kinda sad as they really wanted all the fame but never really climbed that ladder! Thanks for you comment glad your enjoying the content!
@drumteacher43 That's great!. I think today, as a musician, you have a bit more control with the online marketing. I know what you mean about the bar scene. It's a catch 22. You need to do it to build a fan base, but the pay is crap and you have no weekends. If you're a full-time musician, it's tough. I do it as a passion, not for the money. Musicians are not respected. Keep on rockin' ...th-cam.com/video/1rUvL_Lr3wA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=e4Qg8_wogqYg2Ddb
I am one of those weekend warriors that Tim was talking about. $150 to $200 for 4 sets. Drive to the gig, set up your gear, play for about 4 hours after it’s said and done. You’ve spent about 8 hours. It would be very hard in the GTA to survive on that. Make sure you have a real job if you wanna play bars.
I had been very active in Eastern Ontario, Western Quebec and Upper NY State years ago. We never really broke into the GTA/Toronto, but we were busy every weekend, so what did we care. The last gig I played was a series of a dozen shows for a musical with the community theatre group. I didn't consider that was my final curtain, but it may very well have been. While I still think about possibly gigging again, it just seems to be too much effort for too little reward. I stay active recording at home though. Tim, you hit the nail on the head with a sledge.
Huge-music-fan's-perspective-from-sitting-in-bars here. I wish musicians were paid better, but it's like what happens to me in my world, copywriting/communications/graphic design. There are so many people doing the same thing that the market is flooded. Employers don't need to pay much to get a writer/designer. And with A.I., the industry might disappear entirely. But that's not the subject here... Musicians also seem to be everywhere and most do it pretty well, but it's a road well travelled. So, no one is willing to pay a lot for a skill that many people seem to possess--how hard they worked to get that skill is irrelevant to the audience. As I see in most bars, around goes the hat and people chuck in 5/10 bucks while some cheap-Os suddenly have to take a piss. I recall Sylvia Tyson saying that in the 60s, there were more bars than good bands and if you were good, you always worked. But today there are hundreds of good musicians/bands doing the same thing. I know nothing I'm saying is a revelation, but for 50 years I've been hearing the same sounds over and over and all over the place. The sounds are good but most music fans aren't going to pay that much for it anymore.
Ont. 🇨🇦 here , the music scene was absolutely killer even though I wasn't going to shows and bars till '79. All those bands back then filling 🏒 arenas and bars from marino to goddo to Webster, April wine and rush....I bet those guys were at least making a few bucks if not garnered good publicity and weren't paying through the nose for venues and insurance
I’m an active gigging musician in Central Florida in an 8 piece cover band. Most of what you say is true, making a living in music is difficult and our skills are rarely appreciated. Our band plays out live about once a week and we bring home, as a band, about $600-$800 a night. Be it good or bad, that’s about as good as a cover band is going to get in our area. The reality is that if we don’t bring fans in and fill up their cash registers we will not get invited back, the live music business is just that simple. All our bands are just business that relies on customers (fans) to follow us around every week so we work closely with the venues to synchronize our marketing and Facebook campaigns to bring in the most people. As a musician you can’t just sit back and ask the venue to do everything except play your guitar, we musicians have a role as well to bring fans to the venues.
I'm in Hamilton...Live gigs are dead...My mates and I have decided to begin Live Streaming our material instead of gigging...Sad that all the venues are gone...
Great video & hard reality!!! Been there, done that & I'm still doing it. I'm gonna go live tommorow, Thursday 7/25/24, and I'm goons talk about residency gigs & what to watch for & I'm also gonna give a shout out to watch your video before quiting your solid income day job for the big music farce, GREAT video, you NAILED it, looking forward for more. I just subbed to your channel, be safe my friend, Rock On & God Bless.
Thanks very much and the shout out much appreciated. Yup I’ve been in the music game 40 yrs. I don’t do bars anymore at all especially Toronto. I still do theatre Tribute band gigs and ticketed gigs but my main income is teaching and some recording. Thanks again and hope you’re live goes well!!
As long as there are musicians willing to undercut other musicians or play for no money it will never change. 55 yrs in the business, life musician union member. ✌️🇨🇦
THANKS FOR THE REPLY GUYS. I CAME TO YOUR COUNTRY IN 1994, LIVED IN A COMBIE CAMPER,TRAVELLED ALL OVER USA, CANADA, MEET MUSOS AND PLAYED AS GUEST ARTIST IN ALASKA AND SANFRANSISCO. GREAT DAYS. YOU GUYS SHOULD DO THE SAME ROUND AUSTRALIA.
The 40 in Brandon MB. still bringing in bands charging a cover charge anywhere from $5.00-$50.00 how much the band gets I'm not sure. The 40 has a lot of history and can still pack the house.
Rock guitarist and a hockey goalie are the 2 things I dreamt of doing professionally. They are now two things I pay to do, 35 years later. I am not a broke musician though. I'm just a plumber in Toronto.
Tim! You nailed it, brother. It is so true. The unfortunate thing is, I have been doing this since the mid-80's and we (musicians) made more money then! See if an electrician would come over and work your house for "exposure" (LMAO). It's ridiculous that professional musicians get paid the same as weekend warriors (some of them that shouldn't be playing live at all!).
Thanks so much for your video. Great commentary and well delivered. I worked full-time teaching and gigging before Covid... and, well that changed everything too.
You've got my subscription. All the best.
Thanks for your comment. All the pro’s that have responded to my recent videos all get it. Imagine a plumber showing up at your house to do some work. He spends hrs at your home and you offer him pizza and a beer oh and I’ll tell my friends who also own homes all about you!! Exposure Haha
That’s kind of elitist to say that some weekend warriors shouldn’t be playing at all, I’m sure the first day you picked up the instrument you were world class.
However as a lover of live music I support you folks and think you should get paid what you deserve.
How do we help you people out ?
Not a fan of this "us vs them" mentality, without the so called weekend warriors you have no scene to play in.
Didn't have to compete with DJ's. Live music was dominating. I will say, the bands were actually better back then though... Musicianship, songs, harmonies, etc.
This isn’t an Ontario, Canada issue; it’s like that everywhere. I once had a restaurant in Ventura, California ask me to perform. I asked how much they’d pay. I was told by the owner that he wouldn’t pay, that he believed that artists have a gift and were being selfish if they didn’t share it with the world - you know, for free. I told him that I thought restaurants should share their culinary gift with the world and that they should be sharing it for free, too - otherwise THEY’D be selfish. Right?
Great come back love it and agree
Not wrong, but can you buy a tomato for free? Never con a con man
You can grow them from the seeds when you buy one tho @@furament
@@furament can you buy a guitar for free, or how about even a string? You are just being silly.
I hope you told this guy his food sucks.
Yup, playing music is lovely...great for the soul. The business itself is among the worst of all professions. The cleaning lady that comes to our house gets $35 an hour with absolutely no training. Being in the arts requires all artists to take a vow of poverty. Its just how it is. The best approach is to be a weekend warrior. Become educated in a field that pays decently even if its not your first career choice. Gig on occasion with no expectation of fair pay. Enjoy every note and when Monday rolls around roll up your sleeves and earn your living wage all the while knowing you've got some cool dates on the calendar. It is what it is.
There's no money in ALL of Canada for live music. Its over has been for a while. It doesn't matter how fucking good you are. And the people that do come out want to watch some jack off press play on a Apple playlist. Music is now all but valueless.
Sad but true
I think everyone would rather be under the US music scene umbrella 🤔🤔
@PhilthyCasual the payoff is soo big if you make it.. I suppose u gotta pay to play to cut out the non serious which maybe why there's a lot of good players out there going nowhere
I think that you mean music as a profession, not the art form itself, which will always be valuable if only to inspire those who listen to it.
@gsco82 true
I just enjoy writing and recording music in my basement nowadays.. Playing all the instruments myself. Sure, there's no pay, but it's way more enjoyable and satisfying.
The fact that I had to "ditch" live shows and switch to online marketing as an Ontario musician was THE move I had to make to survive, and the fact that this video exists is no coincidence to the situation
Yup you are correct
The mistake is expecting a recreational activity to be a livelihood. Play music, or hockey, or golf because you want to. When you no longer enjoy it, you move on to something else.
@johnc.8298 you can make a living doing anything. I’ve made a living for 40 yrs as a musician. I’m just fed up with gig scene
@@johnc.8298 playing music is not a recreational activity. it's a service.
Hey Tim --- great video. I'm an "old-timer" who grew up in the '60s and '70s when live bands played across Canada. Almost every small town had bars with live music, and every city had numerous bars and clubs for every kind of music. Bands and singles acts made a great living traveling across the country from coast to coast. Many of our most famous bands like Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks who became The Band, the Guess Who and BTO, you name it --- travelled back and forth playing live in clubs and honing their skills. Now today in 2024, it's the exact opposite. Live music is virtually dead in Canada. The big cities like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal etc. have only a few clubs left because real estate developers have taken over. It's a real tragedy and a whole generation of musicians and young people don't know what they're missing.
Yes I agree
21 years strong. Not stopping any time soon. AM HERE!!
Former drummer here (must change that avatar) and still have 2 kits ,must sell my Premier Sigina Maquis in silver sparkle. My last gig was in Nov 2013 and considering I was a 'Drumaholic' I'm surprised how much I don't miss it! There was less money offered from about 2005 and bar owners, Weddings planners and booking agents tried to knock my fee down all the time. Bars suck. I've been recording guitar, keys, vocals and write melodic songs and love it.
Spent the last seven years in Nashville. Everything Tim is saying is true. But, just since 2016, the cost of living skyrocketed, cost of parking in downtown Nashville got expensive, the traffic is insane, it's rough! You get a touring gig as a hired gun - you can endure a ton of dysfunction and nonsense. For example - they give you the setlist, you bust your ass while putting anything else on hold, then randomly two weeks later, the decide to give you an "updated" setlist with all different songs you've never played. You can burn yourself out and exhaust yourself without even seeing it come. In general there's a lack of regard not only for musicians but also musicians towards other musicians as well.
Man I agree totally and thanks for commenting about Nashville. Badbrad is a TH-camr that talks a lot about the Nashville scene!
I was also a virtuoso guitarist, somedays practicing 8 hours a day. When I was 22, I slowly started to give up the hole thing after I got a full time job (in a different field). There is no money in music, what you see on TV, the superstars, they are the small shiny part of a huge industry. If you want to make a living as a musician, you have to teach, which can be as soul killing as any other full time job. Dealing with parents, missing payments, missing classes. There is not much respect for a music teacher either. Do it for fun, but don't expect much from it.
I am a full time musician for over 35 yrs. I teach I do clinics, gigs, tours, recordings, TH-cam etc. but you are correct it’s all great until it just isn’t anymore. I’m almost 60 so close to being at the end of my tenure. It’s had its moments of joy and despair. It’s certainly not glamorous, lol. Hearing yourself on the radio is cool though.
Hired gun was so eye opening
@@TR-oh6qf My experience also, ten years teaching in private music school guitar. The stress trying to keep students interest, kids mostly arent that into guitar, just another hobby among others. Back in the day if wanted the recording you'd be trying to catch it from radio with cassette tape, go to library or buy the album. Now if you tell kid its prolly online for "free". Too much work, no interest at all. Everythings too easy, except the actuall learning. Think I got somewhat burned out. Of course theres that few ones thats really nice to teach, usually adults, not kids.
On top of that - music seems to be being made by a lot of people as a hobby using a ton of easy tools in DAWs so they can put up all sorts of stuff into Spotify and other venues. (I'm guilty of some of this but do not at all try to make money at it). For true musicians who strive to buy gear, start a band, go out and tour - that hill to climb is very high. You need so many connections to make a little money. Do not think you will make a career in the music business - get a money-paying career going and do music on the side. Get to the point where you can gig-out and be ok if they don't even pay you. You're likely to make more money as a paid staff church worship band member than a rocking band trying to make it as an independent band.
.. Sad but TRUE.
I made a living off of being an international touring "tribute" band through the 90's / 2015 ish.
THEN downhill from there.
Pretty much ALL GONE NOW.
An artist is born as a creative entity and therefore has to create, must create, until their demise. Come whatever may, but go into that battle valiantly and proud.
I love playing and being a creator .. I will never stop playing and learning.. no matter if I make money or not money always comes and goes. … I play because I love it !
Yup I get it.
Same reasons my nephews play hockey. There are even "old timer" leagues because they love hockey. How many golfers get paid to do what they love? Quite the opposite actually. A season's green pass can cost thousands!
I guess the point is do it for fun now. I decided to get a real job in my twenties. Still play and practice everyday just for personal enjoyment.
It’s too late for me to do it for fun, lol.. I’m a life long pro player. I’m almost 60 not planning on getting a “real job” I’ve managed to be successful in other ways than gigs. Recording, teaching, coaching bands, TH-cam, judging competitions, drum clinics, music camps, masterclass’s, merchandise etc has kept me afloat. The live music scene is dead here! No gigs!
@@drumteacher43 How about not even being able to find and or AFFORD...a place to even practice your drums to get your chops up to par...so you can then starve by not getting any gigs??????? 😀 I can't find affordable places to even practice my drums. I would be in heaven just to find that and an affordable place to live here in California
@geneboris33 I get it man it’s not easy
Oh man could I ever relate to this video! As a musician in Ontario, I packed it in 10 years ago with bands and gigging and have never regretted my decision since! Wasn’t just about pay, but having to deal with musicians (who had alcohol/drug issues, brought in other problems, didn’t keep band agreements etc….). You know what I’m talking about Tim! 🎸🎶
Mate you typed the exact comment I was originally going to post, I 1000% agree. I thought I was the only sober one out there and don't miss the drama and mercenaries! LOL Respect!
I sure do. I’m going to do a video today or tomorrow about some band mate drunken /drug use stories. It was brutal in some cases. Singers falling off the stage police involvement with singer etc. just trying to get members to play their parts without being too drunk or high was a big task!
Been there - done that!!
@@YesYouCANPlayGuitar I’ve been playing professionally ( part time ) for decades. Now in my 60s I’m still getting booked but it’s all gravy $$. No more hustling to play everyday. 2-3 times a month is good for me. There is no drama in my 2 bands. We’re mature enough to not let that crap be a ‘thing’. I will retire someday. Just looking for a good time/place to jump off. I thought Covid spelled the end for me but as soon as it ended, gigs started coming fast and furious. As long as I keep getting booked, I’ll keep playing gigs.
I witnessed these issues as well. Too much drama with the alcoholic spitting out his songs and congratulating himself afterwards. They would say, “are you counting my beers again “. What was practiced went sideways when the alcoholic came out. I loved the guys who truly enjoyed what we had worked for so long. Health reasons ended my long time love of playing music.
Foreigner musician living in Germoney since 2003.
One of the 2 biggest problems here are
1. The practical non - existence of musicians willing to write own material in the underground circuit. All you can find if you are not able to come in a mainstream niche is all those ridiculous cover bands all of them playing the same boring repertoire (The Cranberries "Zombie", AC DC "Highway To Hell", Brian Adams "Summer of 69", "Seven nation Army" and some German Top 40 shit).
2 . The hobby musicians who does not respect themselves because they earn 3.000 euro monthly or maybe more as dentists, architects, whatever. They play for ridiculous cachets or gage........ Guess who will hire a pub owner when decide to have a night of live music? The professional musician or the amateur? (And many of them are really good!).
Another factor (I lived 5 years in Munich) is that the neighbours don´t want loud music at night, so the urban local scene is actually dead (and that increased since the plandemie). My last concert in that city was in a local in the outskirts faraway, at the side of a . . . . . . ...... Korn plantation!
😄🤣😂😂😂
Actually I am surviving by giving guitar and bass lessons, and trying to do something in m,y little home studio until now without success. I made my own TH-cam Channel in order to see what happens.
Conclusion: It´s not only in Canada.
Thanks for your comment and enlightening and educational comments
Be sure that Germany was good for (Cover-/Top40-/"Tanzmusik")-Musicians and Bands! You could easily make 6-figures income a year just as a "unknown" average musician. My Father was a professional Musician/Entertainer (Alleinunterhalter), so were many of his friends, I myself have been in that business more than 30 (!) years - 20 of them as totally full time musician - , so were many of my friends. NOBODY except one lucky (?) Guy is still doing it fulltime if even still doing it at all! When you came to Germany in 2003 everything has started already to go down the drain! The EURO (2001), "Geiz ist Geil" Advertising (2003), Bank Crisis (2008/2009), Smoking prohibited (2009?), the "Internet" & Laptop DJ's, and...................Corona - That was the End! Glad (and sad same time) i made my way before into Federal Administration and just doing Music as a Hobby now, not to mention my enormous health issues that saddly appeared meanwhile.
@@Worlds_Worst_Guitarist As I told above, I lived 5 years in Munich. My appartment was 300 meters away from the appartment that Freddie Mercury owned (in Sendlinger Tor, apparently in the 70s and beginning of the 80s the city had a very active gay activity). Even Supertramp started their big time career there. Donna Summer, Giorgio Moroder and many other Disco Music artists recorded there, etc.
@sidalientv amazing! I love hearing this stuff!! Thanks
@@SidAlienTV yes, but not in 2003 anymore..........................
Thanks I needed to hear that! I have been fooling myself for a long time playing for peanuts thinking it was going to get better. Deep down I knew it was exactly as you described, but now I’m really thinking something needs to be done. People like live music, but you’re right. There is no respect for us musicians.
If people like live music so much, why is the live music scene in such bad shape?
NoBody goes to see live music it’s all on devices now. Plus ticket prices are so high people are forced out
Went from being a DJ, to a promoter, to a producer, to a rapper/singer, to tying it all together and starting my own label and doing everything online, no more shows, no more touring, no more press runs, and making lifechanging money as an indy label operating as many artist names. You HAVE to innovate if you live here, I'm in the heart of downtown Toronto and there is a huge difference to collabs here vs the US for sure. We don't have the population or the money here to thrive off of it. We don't have the infrastructure to compete with livenation or to incubate new talent with proper foundations to making money in the music biz. In my reports, Canada accounts for
DJ took over the music in 80,s.
Now it's Mobile djing from my bike 😂🎉❤
Live music was great in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s.
I know a drummer who plays with two three bands , they accomodate his schedule and he makes alot of money but thats because a drummer as good and reliable as him is hard to find
I even experienced being paid less than a bad five piece band if I was in a killer 4 piece band cause we had only four members. The bars would pay per man not per band. A complete joke.
I had a bar manager say to me once when he paid us at the end of the weekend…” I thought you guys would have a bigger PA and lights for my place”. And he had a small place with a small area for the band. I told him that we wouldn’t have made any money if we brought a bigger show. He then said”I thought musicians didn’t care about making money”. He was a piece of shit. Never played there again.
Wow, yes I agree with you!
probably an Arab or Lebanese
Here is something I recently heard that will put what this dude is saying into perspective. As Canadians, we all know the band, Sloan, right? I listened to a podcast that featured Chris Murphy the other day...and what he said, blew my mind. In 2017, a year that he only did Sloan..and no side projects,....he only earned 37,000 dollars. So if a guy in one of Canada's biggest bands is only making 37,000 in a year, how do you think the average bar musician is doing?
that terrible band The Tragically Hip couldn't find a gig in 50 seat bar in the USA but would play hockey arenas in Canada
@frankdiscussion2069 I'm not a fan of the Tragically Hip either. But their career is kind of sad. Huge in Canada..but couldn't do much elsewhere. I've always looked at them as a bar band that got lucky (in Canada, of course). Although, if you are a lyric person, I guess I can understand why they might appeal to you. But I am not a lyric person.
Best I ever did in two 4 pc bands was 2400
@shpeen8835 The best music payday I ever had was 800 CAD for playing 2 songs on acoustic guitar for a singer at a wedding. Other than that, I have gotten a lot of free beer. hehe.
@@michaelr.4878 ya the Hip were overrated by Canadians for sure. Good Canadiana lyrics though. Average at best musicianship . I used to be a hip apologist to anyone who put their music down… but as I got older, I just can’t take the vocals and the uninteresting music anymore. Didn’t age well for me…
Saying all that - They have some excellent acoustic songs with meaningful lyrics no doubt…
The problem is "pay to play" venues are the norm throughout Canada (and the US). In _some_ other countries there are laws that prohibit "pay to play" and require all monies from ticket sales to go to the performers (with the venues expected to make a profit from alcohol sales). Japan is a good example of this, which is why some musicians will play a gig or two there every few years even if they aren't playing anywhere else, and why some musicians go to Japan to "start" their careers but end up never leaving.
"Yngwie Malmsteen" entered the chat.
Supply and demand. I do agree with you, the struggle is everywhere. It could be different.
I quit the road 30 plus years ago for this reason among others. We couldn’t afford to eat and we were good. So I became a weekend worrier and did alright. Now I play for free, locally, and for just the joy of playing. It’s much more satisfying now. I am lucky in that my day job, now retired, allowed me to buy the equipment I needed. My band mates are in the same situation and we all pal for strictly enjoyment now and we play for charities and local festivals that support our communities.
I empathize with your experiences and I agree there is no money to be made in music here in Canada. On top of that, there has been a huge reduction in the number of people that go out to these venues. I don’t know the answer to this dilemma I just know it is what it is.
Good luck to you and your mates
Thanks for comment very enlightening
Its the same everywhere, im in San Diego, my band sold out a huge club 3-400 people each paid $15-20 we came away with $52.50 each!
Brutal! It’s a waste of talent!
Musicians, Athletes, and Actors get into their field out of passion first. And if you are good, set up right, fortunate, right place right time right have the right support, business sense you could make a great living but you would be the lucky
Nigel in Canada🇨🇦
HONEYMOON SUITE got paid the same as a popular "cover band' at clubs , bars in Toronto
Same everywhere. We are with you brother. Rock on.
Thanks!
I’ve only been to Nashville a couple times, I remember all the bands I saw had someone out in the crowd collecting tips in exchange for requesting the band cover a song. They’d literally huddle on stage for a few minutes and were so good they’d could basically figure out the song quickly and then play it. Cool idea but sad that incredible musicians like that have to do that.
Oh, and in TO, all the places we pitched were pay-to-play. You had to buy 20 tickets and sell them on your own. They you’d have the honour of playing at 11.30pm on a Wednesday night in front of 3 people.
Yeah that’s brutal and I refuse to do that. Tips yes but also a set amount for the evening’s performance
30 years of playing the bar scene in Windsor Ontario, not much left now, used to make good money back in the day, not now, good luck young -uns
Best times was in the 80’s! Now, not worth it! Music scene, industry change so much, since the computer arrival and with the rap stuff, which to me sucks, I stop doing any shows long time ago! I still make music at home, for my pleasure and friends! I am full equipped, lots of synths, guitars, bass and play music to have fun, mostly like Kebu, but never outside my garage or house! I played in bars, venues, in the 80’s and 90’s, not anymore! Still having fun, but only for myself and friends!
That is exactly my experience. I am so greatfull now that I got to spend the entire 80’s touring and playing out full time. SO much fun! The bands were cool, the audiences were super cool, the music was great. Everyone was so good looking and had such a fun attitude. We got to be Rock Stars!!!
Literally the entire scene is gone now. I stopped playing out a few years ago, and I’m having more fun than ever - but in a different way. I have my own complete home recording studio, with everything and all my dream instruments in it.
I can wake up and practice, play, write and record 24 hours a day (and I do!) and create exactly the kind of music I like. It’s a learning and growing experience now. I do miss being the cool Rock guy on stage, but I am much happier over all, being settled down at home with a good steady life.
But the decades of the 80’s? I wouldn’t give up those experiences and memories for anything.
@@kevinsturges6957 yes my friend! The 80’s were amazing, great music, great clothes, great spirit, great people!! As you can see you and me are not alone! Many wish they can still listen to 80’s music style! I get some people, not only in their 50 or 60 years old that would love to hear new music from this era! This music will never die! I am also interesting to know about other musicians like you who are still making this type of music!
Same here in B.C, biggest bands are cover bands Led Zeppagain, The Fab Four, BC/DC... lucky to get $100 each per band member a night for a gig, same pay as 50 years ago in the 1970s. In Canada there is not much respect for live music, people can be hostile & try to talk over you, ignore or not appreciate live music
I’ve been playing live since the late eighties until 2018. I’ve toured Canada lots and played every spot in Toronto, most of which are gone. I have a million stories and 0 dollars. I’d be happy to swap stories.
Yeah man you and I have been in the same boat. Stories are cool I’ll be doing more here on my channel!! Thanks for your comment it would be cool to chat
I love when the Toronto bars charge the bands for a regular pop or water. 🤬😡
Yup and full price for a meal no freebies or discounts
@@spagzs I just like music, I don't play it. I was the gas man on a car racing team for a couple years and some track owners in Ontario would make the drivers purchase a ticket for the event that they were the main attraction of. This wasn't an entrance fee to participate in the race, just a ticket to the race. I'm surprised there are not coin slots on the toilets in that province.
I'm a professional artist. I've known many musicians over the years and I am always thankful that I can work alone and at home. Good luck to my fellow musicians. I know it's difficult out there!
Our band gigged opening/middle billings in Toronto fairly frequently in the early/mid-2000s. At the end of the day, we (too) grew tired of driving for hours, parking and playing for $20 and a couple of drink tickets, lol. We definitely had some fun and met some great people along the way, but yeah... It gets old quick and people drop off.
I was in a top 40 cover band in Ontario late 80s early 90s, if you were good and had good agents helping you cou;ld be busy three days a week all year make a decent living if you weren't dumb with your money. I remember banking half my money I made because most of the time you got a free room and people buying you drinks here and there and sometimes food if the management or owners liked you. The guys that drank and did alot of heavy drugs didn't do so well. Nowadays there's virtually no professional bands going town to town each week like we did.
80’s was fun music that a lot of people enjoyed, and the 80’s had volume. Rockin’ bars with 500 to 1000 people that wanted to have a blast.
Which band Roto? I was around that time
Entertainment costs are the first expense to be cut from a consumers budget when things get tough.
I really enjoy watching live performances but it has become too expensive to attend a concert.
So now I will stream recorded live video of shows and concerts at home on my big screen tv and surround sound system where I can avoid the traffic and crowds. I control the sound, sit in a comfortable recliner and my bar and bong are near by. All at a fraction of the cost to attend a show.
The next shoe to drop will be when Artificial Intelligence takes over the creation and performance of music merging with holograms.
Pro musician from SF Bay Area for 45 years. I've got recording credits including gold record and publishing by major band. I've toured around the world a few times and I still continue to record and produce music to this day. I'll probably keep doing this until I go to my grave because I love it so much.
Here's the deal: the most anyone can make on a standard gig here in Bay Area (bar gig, restaurant gig, shitty festival spot) is $150USD. Now, every now and again you'll make over $500 for a corporate show. Maybe you got $1K for a NY gig. But those are very, very few and far between and those type of gigs really are soul-sucking-do-it-for-the-money work anyway.
Now...$150USD is the MOST for a standard non-corpo gig. If $150 is MAX, the minimum is fucking zero pay (more on this later). Somewhere in between is $50 to $100 bucks and is what you will be offered especially on the 'odd nights' (M-Th) at a pub or restaurant. Ironically, some of the meals you see served are now $50 or higher and a table tab that can be $100 easy in the so-called 'wealthy' Bay Area with tech company employees (not true anymore, pandemic shuttered a lot of businesses for good). So...the cost of ONE MEAL is what you are paid for 3 hrs of work. Fuck.
The reason why local gigging musicians are sucking is because of two things:
1.) The restaurant/pub/bar/festival work DON'T WANT TO PAY MUSICIANS A DECENT RATE. They want to make money and live, non-recorded music played by real people is a LUXURY to them. They simply are unwilling to pay for labor costs of live music (the thing that attracts people to the venue) beyond basic licensing fees for having a stage, sound equipment and open area and bar to accommodate live entertainment (musicians, deejay, karaoke). So...the deejays and karaoke folks are getting paid the same rate as a group of live musicians who end up getting the lowest per person fee. Standard performance spaces simply don't want to pay beyond what they willing to afford for live entertainment.
2.) The musicians ACCEPT THE LOW RATE OF PAY. We all know that gigs employ live musicians who are not professional and do not rely on this as the sole source of income. Sometimes these musicians will perform for the lowest rate possible (a can of beer and some chips all night long) or straight up for FREE (they want to get exposure). This shit here is the single most pervasive aspect of the economics of live performance in local venues. Folks who want to perform at a professional level simply cannot compete with this crap. There will always be a time when a professional band is sacked in favour of another mob who will come in and play for virtually nothing. They replace professional bands and the establishment only cares that bodies pile into the place so they can keep operating.
To my mind, the musician unions are ineffective because the establishments can book whomever they want at any time and for any deal and as long as people go ahead and play for free, the professional musician will suffer. And musician unions really only are useful to large organized enterprises like the symphony, opera or ballet orchestras here in the US.
The only solution is for something to happen that will give the local stage performer a decent minimum wage for every show. The only thing I've racked up in my mind (i've thought about this for years) about this that can be effective is some kind of legislation to improve the lot of the musician; a mandatory minimum wage must be set for any live performance in any venue that makes money featuring live performance. It doesn't matter what level musician and can include deejays and karaoke people (ANY live performer on a stage). EVERY performer gets paid a minimum rate with the max rate being negotiated for popular and profitable live musicians. Something like this would eliminate the spectre of musicians who are willing to play for free and actually support the professional folks who consider this a way to make a living.
What say you?
BTW, i've seen the dude you talked about. It's too freaking depressing to watch. I only saw a couple of things and stopped. I couldn't bear listening to the motherfucker complain about how fucked shit is about live performing. It's too painful. Even with your own vid, I stopped about 4 mins in and started this rant. In any case, i've been to Toronto and it's an awesome city. It's too bad that the conditions for musicians there are similar in other places. Good luck to you, bro.
Wow great and educating comment and I agree except for the badbrad part, lol I love the guy! I think the negative aspects need to be discussed which is why Brad inspired me to do this video. The info you talked about is the same here maybe even lower pay. The “work for beer or feee bands have killed it for a lot of pro’s here as well. I teach, ( 40-50 students weekly) I record, I do band consulting, I do judging of music competition and work for various studios. So I make a living I’m just not gigging anymore after 35 yrs of live performance. The music industry has dropped down so much. Teaching helps me cope. Thanks for sharing
@@J3unG a fine rant indeed.
I would add, in France they have an artist status. You get a monthly wage, there are parameters yes, but the question of how it changes the boat, and if it can be rocked arrises.
I have been developing a loop sample library that I am going to launch, but Ai seems to suck the inspirational wind out of artists sails. But that is another story. The other variable is TH-cam is grandstanding people attention away from live music. Such strange times. Even busking, people have no change on them anymore!
@thejawshop-AdventureRecording thanks for your comment. Very interesting and I feel and live your pain!
@@drumteacher43 Thanks for your kind response. Apologies for the long rant. Your post had a triggering effect on me today and I guess is a delayed response to the darkness of that Brad dude from Nashville. Yeh. I can't stand him because (to me) he's just weeping into the camera about his music problems. By the second post it got too much. The algorithm probably led me to you and I needed to respond because you spoke directly about the earning issue and so I directed my ire towards that. I've been to Toronto and was impressed by that city. Is there a chance an idea like a minimum wage for musos can be organized and heard by the city council? In Cali, there is such a thing as a fast food minimum wage which is set at $20 hour for folks who work in hospitality preparing and selling burgers, fried foods, etc... primarily for takeaway. The minimum wage for the rest of the state of California is now $17/hr and is adjusted per city with the state, so one city could be higher than another but minimum is $17USD unless you work at McDonald's or Tim Hortons or Starbucks which is $20. Cheers!
@@J3unG The problem I see is that an artist minimum wage could be just another disincentive against using live music at all. An artist living wage could be better.
I appreciate the video as a patron of many pubs and clubs over the decades.
The market dictates that it's not for professionals who love their craft and are great at it.
Agreed
I hear ya, I’ve been in the business over 30 years, live music in Ontario never pays, good luck, making a living.
Hey Tim interesting watch and some interesting comments. I too am a drummer in Ontario, but also have done solo acoustic/singer gigs too. Essentially, I bought a used PA and wanted to reimburse myself for it over a summer. Most acoustic gigs were sourced by a booking agent and paid me $150 per show. It's low pay, but even with gas, my $500 used PA system was covered after 4 gigs and the rest is gravy, so I am overall happy. I dare not ever consider what my hourly wage worked out to :) One thing no one mentioned here when complaining about low pay rates is that bars need to make money to be viable, and only musicians that get bums in seats can make that happen. I am in a 5 pc band and we will play gigs for $350 as we want to get better, and a practice halls only takes you so far. I understand from bars perspective as a lot of meals and beers would need to be sold just to clear that fee.
The money was much better in the 80s and 90s and it is only a labour of love right now. Not sure why I still do it and I do question myself sometimes when loading up my car with drums, speakers, and monitors, burning $40 in gas to come home with $80 after so many hours. Luckily, I spent many years in the retail music industry, then spent many years teaching elementary school music, so I am can look back on a music career that has been more fruitful than many other friends that are hobbyists. Runners run, fighters fight, and musicians perform, even when it doesn't really make financial sense.
There's no money in bar gigs where I live (China), the bars struggle to make a profit. We still play them but it's basically a free night out for us (food and drinks) with a small tip. However there is money in corporate events, they're a bit harder for us to reach because we don't have the proper work visas, but they still happen. Weddings and private events can be pretty good too, but all in all it's not enough to do this full time . And of course forget about playing your own material, crowd pleaser covers are the way to go.
One business model that works quite well here is booking the entire bar for an event and selling tickets at a reasonable price with a profit share with the bar. We do it all inclusive, unlimited drinks, cost of drinks is deducted from the intake before the split. Works really well and pays way more than a regular bar. Surprisingly, the past events we've done have all sold out.
Thanks for the inciteful information. There is money here to in corporate and I only do: ticketed, corporate, theatre and wedding gigs now.
I’m 83 been a human juxbox all my life I think I’ve spent 90,000 hrs of my life dedicated to music .Had a band in 60s playin beer joints and gave that up due to working steady in Westinghouse where I retired from 35 yrs suffering for my sanity.Tried Nashville in 60s came close as a song writer as some of the biggies did listen to my songs (Glasser Bros published Gentle On My Mind for Glen Campbell) Floyd Lightn Chance played stand up bass on Hank Williams Your Cheating Heart and recorded with Everley Bros ,Conway Twitty ,Chet Atkins ,Patsy’s Cline etc.Bottom line I play my music strictly for the love of it now a days ..Yep You Tube & 2 months ago AI …..Don’t give up guys
Hi Tim, Thanks for this, I totally agree. Our (4WD) Band now that we are retired from our Career professions just practice and play 2-3 gigs a year. We are a 5 piece that plays the classic rock hits really really well however we are considered a fairly large band for todays venues. I've used AI to generate a slick promo package which incorporates both studio and live performance samples and promote through Facebook still have a 3% return interest from proprietors. We even offer to generate the promotional material no charge....hours of work! anyhow long story short , do it as a hobby to keep your mind sharp, take a section of the garage and sound proof and insulate ,,,beer fridge and forget about! Cheers Mighty Q of Four Wheel Drive South Western Ontario. BTW As a footnote Rick Beato has an excellent TH-cam episode about the music industry as started to change in the late eighties and the evil of syndication as it stifled creativity.
Thanks very much for your comment. I’m almost 60 yrs old now and it’s been an incredible journey of touring and playing local, literally thousands of gigs! I just teach at my home and at a music school now. I also record for whomever hires me as well as drum clinics, band coaching and even judging music and drumming festivals and events. I’m still busy in the music world just no more
gigs!!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A few additional thoughts that your video brought to mind:
1. It seems that the old model of keeping a dedicated band together and working full time is rarely viable today. Even in the 1970s I thought that I could see the difficulty of making a living that way, especially when I met older musicians who could not afford medical/dental care. I did the full time giggling thing for a short time before I ended up teaching music in public school for over thirty years and gigged on the side. That was challenging and a compromise, but I loved working with junior high kids and found many ways to stay creative and inspired. When I retired at 59 I have dedicated my time working on song writing and recording original material, which all I ever really wanted to do in music anyway.
2. It seems to me that the modern version of making it in music is no longer becoming a rock star. It has become earning a tenured position teaching in a college or university, probably more in the jazz and classical arenas.
3. Someone like you obviously over the years has had to develop entrepreneurial and people skills. You might look at your performing years as training for all that you do next. Your TH-cam channel is interesting to me. I subscribed.
4. Small might be more viable. The busiest act that I know personally today is a husband and wife team that does a duelling piano show. Very flexible, good vocal chops, good audience rapport, large covers repertoire, and lots of corporate gigs. That isn’t exactly a band, but they are paying their mortgage. There was a western Canadian guitarist (the late Gaye Delorme) who I think had a roster of pickup musicians in every centre and a repertoire of tunes that allowed the groups to do a lot of improvisation. That seemed to keep costs low and kept him working. (It’s funny, but I jammed with him on stage twice, once in 1984 and again about 20-25 years later. We played exactly the same tunes!)
Good video man keep it up! I didnt give up I made a home studio and im looking for players again.
I've watch the live music scene in Toronto, which was one of the best in the world, collapse over the years. In the 90's I was blessed to have seen so many stellar bands and musicians in Toronto and Montreal, life enriching experiences, fond memories I will cherish for the rest of my life, now the music scene has been gutted and I think our society is the worse for it. I play Jazz and I know I most likely will never earn a living at it but I still play because the art deserves to survive and be heard. Just sad that I can't dedicate more to the music because it's not economically viable in this day and age.
As Gene Simmons said "the record is dead" record companies won't take a chance on a new band look at Rush almost $400,000 in the red until their 4th album, 2112 and the rest is history, they wouldn't get that chance nowadays. Corporations and governments had a hand in the destruction as well. Q107 couldn't wait to spin the latest local talent, then you went downtown bought the record and drove up the street to see the band. Now Q107 just plays classic rock so that hype is gone. Every Toronto high school was 95% white and 95% liked rock so we had concerts, where students got exposure to the bands. My old high school of 2200 students had 32 black students, now it's 1500 students with 300 white students, I think we'd have fights and guns instead of rocking fun.
Also record companies and radio stations don't want to play an album start to finish, I know Bon Jovi has huge fights with Apple iTunes about promoting the entire album not just the radio hit. Sorry to say the kids will never get the thrill of listening to a classic album start to finish unless they party with one of us boomers. The days of Dark Side of the moon, Who's Next, Back in Black, Rumours, Boston, Crime of the Century, Brothers in Arms, 2112, etc. those days are gone.
A few kids I know have entered the business, the bands don't pay, you either make money on merchandise or move to the mixing board
Truer words have never been spoken!
could you imagine a band trying to do what rush did in the early days, with todays costs?? Playing 250 shows a year? It would never happen
Diversity has destroyed this country
Another thing that has killed the music business is the lost art of organic songwriting. Everything is loops and beats. Everything is the same tired chord progressions. People are numb to what they hear. It’s all about quantity, not quality. I was pleasantly surprised when I heard Will Smith’s daughter’s new song. She used dissonant melodies and interesting chord progressions. If more artists took a chance at being unique, maybe the music industry could stand a chance of redeeming itself.
@ronwilliams1094
Yep, I do that and will not compromise with any AI or automation. Good songwriting is important way beyond the technical aspects of playing!
Mind-blowing. I had absolutely no idea it was that bad today, for musicians. It's a TRAGIC situation. I'm not one but I feel your angst about it. Thanks for expressing it.
Yes it’s all true! Thanks for watching and commenting
All true. Tough times. No venues . Not a lot of people turn out. Throw in cell phone use and there you go. It's all chamged.
It's a matter of the economics of supply of live music and demand for live music.
Yeah, it's over. I played in rock groups, jazz trios, etc., for 40+ years. Forget it. I just quit the last rock band, I said just don't call me anymore, sorry nothing personal but I'm not dragging equipment around, rehearsing, and all the rest to play for a few people staring at their phones for 75 bucks. Screw it.
Yup I’m with you brother! I just think the scene is dead and there’s no appreciation for live music!! Thanks for sharing
HI TAM FROM AUSTRALIA. ITS THE SAME HERE. ONLY THING WORTH SPENDING TIME ON IS CREATING NEW MUSIC AND RECORD , MARKET IT ALL YOUR SELF WITH YOUR OWN RECORD COMPANY. FOR FUN HAVE A JAM AT YOUR PLACE FOOD ,WINE, MUSIC, JUST ENJOY MUSIC WITH PEOPLE WHO LOVE TO PLAY.
True. Problem is nobody listens to it and it’s very hard to market, but I feel your enthusiasm
In florida I lose jobs at club restaurants because I do too good of a job entertainment and they never leave thier table and then the club loses money by not having the turnover. What a way to lose gigs. They always say your awesome but we need the turnover to make. Crazy. I am forever a lifer on the streets playing and I'm doing very well and booked year round. Peace brother keep your head high . Music will come back around for you. Never give up.
Does the venue charge a cover ?
Never play a restaurant if you're a musician. The incentives do not align. Real musicians do not play dinner music and provide aural wallpaper for a dining experience.
played a gig for first time in 30 yrs and got the same $100 i got back in late 80's. - yes its broken
Quality costs money - no one values the time and expensie of good gear , good playing , good signing, and we wont talk about investment in PA gear
Yup, it’s sad but true! I just mentioned to another commenter. I got offered a small tour with a band and attempted negotiations over money, bonuses perks etc they wouldn’t have it. It was “take it or leave it” so I left it. Not wasting my time and effort making money for other people. You can get a gig with a name Nashville act gig pays $150-300 a show.. peanuts. 🥜
I don’t get it. We toured for 3 years in the mid 1980’s BC and Alberta mostly with a few excursions farther east and South of the border. We always got $3500 to $4000 per week. Production costs were big because we carried a huge Martin P.A. And 46 1000 watt par 64s. 5 ton truck and van. Accommodation was always looked after. 2 crew (sound and lights) and we usually were quite comfortable. Depending if you saved or just partied. Back then there were so many clubs you could book 8 weeks at a time and take a week off at home.
Sorry for the state of live music today. You barely see it anywhere anymore. Can’t believe what has happened.
Yup I did tours like that and even much bigger. The scene has been wiped out here. One of my students is touring right now in Europe and they are doing well! Check out The Commoners on TH-cam. Adam is my student
Recreation, hobbies, activities you have a passion for are all for your personal enjoyment. The time you spent learning piano for example, was an end in itself not a means to an end. It's not a waste of time if that's what you enjoy doing. Why should you expect to get paid? It's not a career path, you spent those hours because you wanted to.
The same for all recreational activities. I have four nephews who were up early mornings to hockey practise before school, parents taking them to other towns, paying money for equipment and hotels, etc. and never expected to get paid for their time and effort (a few make it to the NHL). Many are still playing in "old timer" leagues because they enjoy it. None I know of whine because of the 000's of hours they've spend in the hockey craft as a waste of time. It's one of their passions.
I've played semi-professionally across Ontario for over 30 years. I took a day job years ago because I knew that I wasn't going to achieve my financial goals just on gigs alone, and I'm not into teaching music as an income option. So perhaps I'm classified as the "weekend warrior". But I'll tell you this...I have never undercut or played for wings & beer, I have always had desire and passion to play ( and hope to be able to go full-time financially), I have studied music at the Royal Conservatory, I always do my homework for gigs, and I take it seriously just as any "full-time pro". I just saw the writing on the wall back when I started in the early 90's...the money wasn't going to be great doing the type of gigs I wanted to do, and the effort required to make a sustainable living was still going to be a gamble. And yes, the money hasn't really changed over the years around the GTA...at least for the standard bar gig. It's a shame.
The generally accepted rate of pay for a band ($300 -$500 as you mentioned) is the big problem. I don't need to take into account things like gas and parking at my day job (my expenses to get to work) simply because the rate of pay is much HIGHER than a bar gig. It's terrible, and discouraging for those who would love nothing more than to make their full living doing something they love. My hat's off to those slugging it out full-time in music. I just can't pay a mortgage or will be able to send my kid to college playing a few $150 gigs every week. That's the harsh reality.
Its been a race to the bottom. All these comments are true. Live music is now a labour of love not $$$$.. I miss the old days
Most cities have a surplus of musicians in venues with decreasing patronage due to the cost of living, combined with changing tastes in live music as well as an ageing demographic. It is nothing more than a function of these attributes of economics.
True, and I agree, but the live music scene has to be generational to some extent. Older folks don’t go out as much as young people, so the new young people have to support the music scene. It’s like passing the torch from older to younger viewing generations!
@@drumteacher43 there need to be more early evening weekday (7-10pm) and matinee afternoon weekend gigs (1-5pm) to appease the older folk who just dont want to be out late anymore, but still love live music, and generally can pay a decent cover $ cost.
@@drumteacher43 The young people aren't into live music. They're into the dance scene at clubs with techno pop, etc. and a dance floor.
There used to be a thing called the "musicians union" that provided some protection from being ripped off but the players had to pay dues and that added to the cost. Then bands started playing without contracts and that really screwed things up for the dues paying folks. When I toured around we had an agency that booked the gigs and our contracts were union. It's a really sad situation now. The only people making money are real estate salesmen and brokers. Bars have to make their profits from alcohol sales and drunk drivers are an inevitable side effect of that market place. Maybe if there was a healthier outlet for performing artists the promoters could pay a little more, but it sure seems that all the nails are in the coffin now.
Tim, I'm a drummer as well. From the age of 15 to 24, nothing but music mattered to me. I understand the overall frustration of not being able to make a living in music. BUT, I know drummers that are playing gigs and making a living in music. Paul DeLong, Jeff Salem (my old drum teacher). Both these guys teach music and play in multiple bands and hustle. Jeff is an entrepeneur as well. They will both admit that making money playing drums isn't enough. You must do more than that. I play on weekends for fun but I also own a automotive repair business to pay the bills and provide for my family. I had to learn in my early twenties that music wasn't going to pay the bills let alone buy a house or start a family. It was a hard pill to swallow when I was younger, but I'm happy to play live occationally these days. Things are tough all over, unfortunately. Peace.
Thanks for your story!!
6:46 In the early 70's I was booked 2 years in advance and could pay monthly rent with 1 gig. Now after 40000 plus hours of experience and education a gig will cover the costs related to doing the gig.
There's a lot of amazing musicians in Ontario and I get the sense that they always say you have to be willing to relocate. People perhaps also assume musicians are getting paid. Sometimes well I guess we gotta be happy getting food or beer. But it seems that you got to be able to approach it in another way and that the scene is now different. Still I think it's worth figuring it out. As they say I wasn't in it just for the money yet I think it's really an individual kind of figuring it out through the years and realizing when they should level up. Or simply start asking for more. I find when I don't ask I get pleasantly surprised. An invitation which led to this gig which lead to meeting this person. Serendipity. The Journey. Still I'm glad you are coming out and saying this. It's not an easy journey but if you love it. Keep on keeping on. Cheers
Thanks man!
You're absolutely right. In Canada, things been on hold is shity, which is why I've had to put a pause on my DJ gigs at clubs and even delivery service for appliances. Can you believe they're paying a trucking company $40.00 per stop?
Let's break it down - if you handle 15 stops, that $600.00 helper only takes home $160.00 to $180.00, while the driver makes $200.00 to $230.00. You have to take out fir diesel and pay the truck its like you in the -.
These guys not only have to install washers but also sometimes strip down a refrigerator just to get it into a house. And here's the kicker - most customers end up calling for property damage. Guess who has to foot the bill? That's right, the helper and the driver. So, imagine if the damage amounts to $1,500.00 and you receive six reports of damages - you'll end up working for free.
It's a tough situation with Canada hitting a roadblock, but we'll get through it. I perhaps. Cut eyes
My band had its second tour booked for 2020 with 12 dates $750 guaranteed per show. Pandemic crushed that. we spent the next 14 months every Sat playing the same 8 songs in the jam room waiting for things to open back up and eventually I snapped.
Yup that’s unfortunate I get it man. I was on tour when covid hit it got shut down I and the industry never recovered from the devastation it caused
You are absolutely right, I live in Toronto the music scene sucks, I've been a musician for 35 years and the money never cover any of my expenses even in wedding gigs. been there done that, I made most income in music production home studio.
It was great in the 70's up until the mid 80's. All of the great places to play are all gone now. The shit Bands didn't have a chance. No one would hire them.
Same happend to me i start in 1985 end up 2007 i would not survive only in music even makink record
We should all aspire to lift each other up. Things have changed, the model has changed. I grew up playing in the greater Toronto area in the late 90's and 2000's so I fully understand what you are saying... We have to view live shows as special, but not the be all end all with social media being as lucrative as it is now.
I do appreciate your video man. Cheers
I agree and thanks for your kind words. Also thanks for watching!
Nigel in Canada🇨🇦
a band mate of mine (Gregg Dechert) stayed a full time 🎵🎶 musician
he ending up playing with David Gilmour and Uriah Heep
i chose the "work force' and retired as a truck 🚛 driver
we both now are back where we started
no richer or poorer
@@Nigel-ry1po saw Gregg play in Stratford about 7 or 8 years ago. He was fantastic!
@@gregpigeon cool , he's from Listowel, we played together in a band in that area
@@Nigel-ry1po Dechy was with Bad Co. for a while as well. He gave music lessons for a while then moved to Southampton. Brian (Helix) was also a Listowel man but he and Dechy never played together. Brian toured, records, etc. and at the end of it all he returned with $20 and a pack of smokes in his pocket to show for it. Last I heard he was selling stained glass windows over the internet and living in Ilderton.
Everyone loves live music in Canada!
We just can't afford shows anymore...
Everyone loves music but ticketed venues are expensive. I agree, but the theatre music scene which I’m involved in with various tribute bands is thriving and affordable, The bar scene costs about nothing to go see for the actual entertainment, but not all the bands are up to snuff but still I ask people to support live music
@drumteacher43 Absolutely! I was in a couple of local bands that would sell, but we never really made any money. I was speaking more of the serious players who count on larger spaces. Ticket prices are hard, and limit a more general audience. I like your content!
@JMBeaushriimp yup it’s crazy the ticket prices today!! Thanks for watching and commenting! Glad you enjoy the content!
@@drumteacher43 Subbed!
@JMBeaushriimp thanks very much!!’
The Canadian music scene has always been lame. All the biggest (Canadian) artists had to go States side to get signed (with some exceptions of course). However, that's all in the past. The music industry has changed. The coveted record deal has become a thing of the past. Not to mention, it's becoming the norm for bands not being entirely 'live'. A TH-camr, called Andy Edwards (great channel) had a modern metal drummer on his channel, she got kicked out of her band because she insisted on playing live at gigs! Rick Beato has discussed this as well. If you want to make money playing music, social media is your best bet. That's a shame, because great music comes from collaborating with other musicians. Anyway, sign of the times ....
the bar business is really tough in the US right now. pay, insurance, regulations, rent, and all that stuff are squeezing the bars dry they are not making any money either my friend. there was a time when you could gig a lot more bc there were a lot more bars that had bands and are making money. bar owners in the old days paid everyone under the table in cash there were no regulations/licenses/taxes like now. in chicago they now require 2 weeks paid vacation on the first day for hourly workers for example. so bars are trying desperately to arrange their business around this stuff. They fail, and then we're left with big corporate places like House of Blues who can afford an HR department to manage everything
Excellent comment thanks for the info really enlightening
first thing to go is the entertainment budget, I played at a restaurant every weekend last summer & they broke even, didn't make a profit. No live music this year...
Just want to add my five cents. I used to play in famous bands in Latvia(former ussr) then played in Germany for a while, ended in Toronto, Canada In nineteenth. I tried to analyze then, why the westeners don't want to pay for life music anymore. But while my visiting Europe recently I found the situation the same if not worse. I think the reason is the degrading of the traditional society and its values on one side, and the constant cost increase of the physical aspects of everyday's life for absolute majority of the people. Life music is not a priority for those struggling for survival. Most of us these days literally work for food and shelter. Back in old days in Eastern Europe we spent only 10-20 percent on these necessities. As far as I know similar situation was in Canada and in so called " developed world". In order to compete with USSR the west elites did not squeeze their working class the way they do now. Since social system of the Eastern block was demolished, there is no more competition between the social systems. Degrading of all the aspects of culture is so obvious on both sides of the swing now.
Ah yes, Hamilton in the 90s and 2000's...great scene of starving musicians, they supported each other though. I got it out of my system as guitarist for a few years, did Rocksearch and NXNE and went on to other things. I miss the old La Luna and Hudson, saw some great shows. Always was treated well by the Honest Lawyer, they were good to the bands at the time. I found that at that time you got one booking at a bar, but if you didn't fill the place with your friends, you never got a second show, didn't matter how good you were. I always kept a day job so i was bleary-eyed and tired but could pay the rent. Live music is definitely a young person's game, when you have less responsibilities and playing for beer is okay. I am glad I did it though - I don't have many great memories about the different jobs I've had over the years, but thinking of the crazy times we had in the band always makes me smile.
Respect for musicians disappeared with Napster. When the public saw they could get what musicians make for free that was the end. And Spotify is not much better. The publics attitude towards musicians has changed. Back in the 80’s and 90’s etc even bar bands got respect. And got paid too. Because people had to leave their house to go,out and get entertained. Not anymore. Most are on their devices getting entertained for free several times a day or even an hour. So how the f€&k is a live band gonna impress them? No chance. Musicians spend thousands on gear, lessons, rehearsals, parking,gas etc etc and the venue wants to throw $100 at you? It’s a mess. And what makes it worse is there are some musicians that will accept that crappy pay. That’s what allows these venues to offer the shit pay etc.
Agree 100%
It's all very disturbing, but there are still some very dedicated, true music fans around. However, that doesn't mean they'll be willing to spend much if anything for it!
😢😢
@@ianstuart5660 yes of course they are. Some people will always value music. Trouble is it’s very low numbers. Not enough to make a difference
You are correct!! I'm a guitar player of 30 plus years from London Ontario area, I had a 3 piece band for a very long time, traveling Ontario, but we ended up splitting because there were barely ended gigs left to even bother. We used to actually make decent money and a living, but unfortunately Canada is not what it once was and it's depressing!
Played in London many times especially at Molly Blooms. Unfortunately you are correct 👍
@@drumteacher43 Molly Blooms was a favorite, that's awesome man!!
Just telling the truth there, Tim. It would behoove others to listen. I believe that it was Joan Baez (or another folk legend from the 60s) who responded to the question: What’s the number one advice you’d give an aspiring songwriter or musician? Her response (and I’m paraphrasing): Get a job and keep it. Write, sing, and play when you can, but for your mental health and family, always make a living. I live in Nashville and have written, recorded and toured from here for close to 25 years. Unless you are the rare victim of the lightning strike, you will wreck your family and resent your dreams. Some know when to say, “Uncle,” some don’t. I didn’t give up, but I knew there wasn’t a lightning strike for me by my 40s. Thank God I had an education and now use music daily in the classroom . Still writing, still enjoying the process, still married and making a living. Thanks for being honest. You may be saving some families and the mental health of many dreamers😂
Thanks for your comment
Write your own SONGS! It doesn’t matter how good you are as a hired gun or how long you practice or what you think you’ve done. It’s about the songs those who write the songs make the money. As a side man, you can’t expect anything more.
What an eye-opener makes me want to quit playing the banjo but I love it. Thanks for this.
You are welcome but don’t quit that banjo playin!
Of all the reasons to quit banjo you picked this video?
Jk
I totally agree with you, Been playing guitar in bands since I way 15 and im 54 now,never stopped. Always had a job to back me up.Played in original bands, and recorded CDs .Past 6 years been playing in cover band from 70s,80,s and 90s.We spend 4 hours b4 a show,setting up our sound board ,speakers etc,then our light's then sound checks.We play for 4 hours then the 2 hour tear down.Then we make around 100 -200 dollars a piece, between 4 people. Lol Thats the also the Cleveland ohio scene.But you have to love it and enjoy it.
Great video - I also had to put the breaks on a full time career. It almost got to the point where I was resenting music due to not being able to afford basic things. The demand isn't there, field is oversaturated, and cost of living is super high. I will play until I die but in order for me to truly love it, I need other things to fill my financial criteria.
I get it man!!
So well articulated.
Thank you !
Music equipment is a luxury not a necessity same for the performance of it compared to a plumber or electrician. Unless you’re doing something for the love of music you better have something that’s completely different in style that surpasses everyone else or play at home or for friends.
I disagree, music is good for the soul. It guides you through hard times, good times and everything in between. Music makes you cry, laugh, scream and of course happy.
Equipment is the means to convey that emotion to people! Performance is the only way to truly convey those feelings!
We are back into the kitchen. Bring the piano close, make an ugly stick, brushes on the pail, guitar and wash tub bass. Take some video, make cards and go around Rosedale. House concerts are a thing. The old model of bars and pubs seem to be morphing into a more community minded thing.
I can relate: ''unless you have somebody supporting you'' [to quote the great Johnny Vidocavich]....
As drummers, we were always working. The hustle has now indeed changed. Thanks for this.
Very true! Both you and Johnny, whom I saw last August at Dom Famularo’s bday party! Great guy.
@@drumteacher43 a johnny fan! I managed to have a private lesson with him in NOLA. Was surreal beyond.
On topic, I feel as a muso we have to embrace the originality of art in general. The path of a musician is a bit different than an artist that writes and has a global concept to share. I have had my toes in both creeks. Playing, touring etc, but also writing and recording. I think if I would rewind the tape, I would have focused on original stuff more, than being a hired gun. That said, they both feed the same pot.
I think we can all relate. No one appreciates the skill level, or it goes unnoticed when the patrons are drinking hard.
100% my friend
I made this decision back in 2012... after a long road of experience. Unless it is a festival gig and pays decent, no more for this guy. Just record, write and keep doing my own passion on my own terms and happier not losing money. Miss the gigs but it has not been the same in a very long time for sure! 👊🧡👍
Hey Tim, I stumbled across your video here. First off, let me say you are a top-level drummer. As for the life in music, I feel your pain. You can't make a living by gigging alone, teach drums online, do courses, teach part time at a music college, be a session drummer. Make albums and sell them online. Get that band back together for a reunion concert and stream online for a fee. Multiple income sources while you sleep. A full-time life in music business is hard. I applaud you for doing it so many years full time. Did you see that documentary about Anvil?
Thanks so much!! Everything you listed and more I already do ( except band streaming) I have up to 50 in person students I do session work and I also coach bands and lots more. I make a living I just don’t do bar or low end gigs and I quit the Toronto scene to many hassles and musicians have become targets there’s yes I saw the Anvil documentary. Kinda sad as they really wanted all the fame but never really climbed that ladder! Thanks for you comment glad your enjoying the content!
@drumteacher43 That's great!. I think today, as a musician, you have a bit more control with the online marketing. I know what you mean about the bar scene. It's a catch 22. You need to do it to build a fan base, but the pay is crap and you have no weekends. If you're a full-time musician, it's tough. I do it as a passion, not for the money. Musicians are not respected. Keep on rockin' ...th-cam.com/video/1rUvL_Lr3wA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=e4Qg8_wogqYg2Ddb
I am one of those weekend warriors that Tim was talking about. $150 to $200 for 4 sets. Drive to the gig, set up your gear, play for about 4 hours after it’s said and done. You’ve spent about 8 hours. It would be very hard in the GTA to survive on that. Make sure you have a real job if you wanna play bars.
I had been very active in Eastern Ontario, Western Quebec and Upper NY State years ago. We never really broke into the GTA/Toronto, but we were busy every weekend, so what did we care. The last gig I played was a series of a dozen shows for a musical with the community theatre group. I didn't consider that was my final curtain, but it may very well have been. While I still think about possibly gigging again, it just seems to be too much effort for too little reward. I stay active recording at home though. Tim, you hit the nail on the head with a sledge.
Thanks very much
Huge-music-fan's-perspective-from-sitting-in-bars here. I wish musicians were paid better, but it's like what happens to me in my world, copywriting/communications/graphic design. There are so many people doing the same thing that the market is flooded. Employers don't need to pay much to get a writer/designer. And with A.I., the industry might disappear entirely. But that's not the subject here...
Musicians also seem to be everywhere and most do it pretty well, but it's a road well travelled. So, no one is willing to pay a lot for a skill that many people seem to possess--how hard they worked to get that skill is irrelevant to the audience. As I see in most bars, around goes the hat and people chuck in 5/10 bucks while some cheap-Os suddenly have to take a piss.
I recall Sylvia Tyson saying that in the 60s, there were more bars than good bands and if you were good, you always worked. But today there are hundreds of good musicians/bands doing the same thing.
I know nothing I'm saying is a revelation, but for 50 years I've been hearing the same sounds over and over and all over the place. The sounds are good but most music fans aren't going to pay that much for it anymore.
Ont. 🇨🇦 here , the music scene was absolutely killer even though I wasn't going to shows and bars till '79. All those bands back then filling 🏒 arenas and bars from marino to goddo to Webster, April wine and rush....I bet those guys were at least making a few bucks if not garnered good publicity and weren't paying through the nose for venues and insurance
I’m an active gigging musician in Central Florida in an 8 piece cover band. Most of what you say is true, making a living in music is difficult and our skills are rarely appreciated.
Our band plays out live about once a week and we bring home, as a band, about $600-$800 a night. Be it good or bad, that’s about as good as a cover band is going to get in our area. The reality is that if we don’t bring fans in and fill up their cash registers we will not get invited back, the live music business is just that simple. All our bands are just business that relies on customers (fans) to follow us around every week so we work closely with the venues to synchronize our marketing and Facebook campaigns to bring in the most people. As a musician you can’t just sit back and ask the venue to do everything except play your guitar, we musicians have a role as well to bring fans to the venues.
I'm in Hamilton...Live gigs are dead...My mates and I have decided to begin Live Streaming our material instead of gigging...Sad that all the venues are gone...
I’m in Hamilton too. Man I’ve got some Hamilton gig stories to blow your hair back, lol the scene is done here, sadly
Great video & hard reality!!! Been there, done that & I'm still doing it. I'm gonna go live tommorow, Thursday 7/25/24, and I'm goons talk about residency gigs & what to watch for & I'm also gonna give a shout out to watch your video before quiting your solid income day job for the big music farce, GREAT video, you NAILED it, looking forward for more. I just subbed to your channel, be safe my friend, Rock On & God Bless.
Thanks very much and the shout out much appreciated. Yup I’ve been in the music game 40 yrs. I don’t do bars anymore at all especially Toronto. I still do theatre Tribute band gigs and ticketed gigs but my main income is teaching and some recording. Thanks again and hope you’re live goes well!!
As long as there are musicians willing to undercut other musicians or play for no money it will never change.
55 yrs in the business, life musician union member. ✌️🇨🇦
100% correct
THANKS FOR THE REPLY GUYS. I CAME TO YOUR COUNTRY IN 1994, LIVED IN A COMBIE CAMPER,TRAVELLED ALL OVER USA, CANADA, MEET MUSOS AND PLAYED AS GUEST ARTIST IN ALASKA AND SANFRANSISCO. GREAT DAYS. YOU GUYS SHOULD DO THE SAME ROUND AUSTRALIA.
The 40 in Brandon MB. still bringing in bands charging a cover charge anywhere from $5.00-$50.00 how much the band gets I'm not sure.
The 40 has a lot of history and can still pack the house.
Nice. Band usually gets half the cover whatever that may be
Rock guitarist and a hockey goalie are the 2 things I dreamt of doing professionally. They are now two things I pay to do, 35 years later. I am not a broke musician though. I'm just a plumber in Toronto.