I used to love creeper world for its creativity but now I kinda just come to look for new mechanics before everything turns dull once again. Everything can be beaten by spamming. I once thought that threats like sleepers would solve the problem by forcing the player to build fast and leave player with no time to build up the required energy to spam, but no, players just win by out-spamming the sleeper. You always have enough time to build your economy even if that means you have to manage to build optimally because playing optimally is easy (build collectors first, respond to early threats just in time, spam out the rest of the game). And when there are actually some maps in which you couldn't win by spamming, the best nightmare comes true, the game does not prepare the player to face such a challenge in any significant way. Players could play to the end of the game by spamming. I got really excited about this series and spent many hours playing CW3, but in the end, I am leaving. I beat the entirety of the CW4 demo levels and all I did was spam units. This problem, in my honest opinion, is the result of the dynamic of the game and is something which cannot be easily fixed. So unfortunate. Have a good luck if you find this game fun, but I'm leaving the creeper world series.
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Thanks for the suggestion, but it is not JUST anything. For example, players might play levels with unit cap by holding until the forge until the player has maxed out then move out. It is NOT just fine-tuning the unit cap, for many levels, it's just about getting out enough unit (perhaps within a limited time). One kind of level that would be interesting would be a level where you need to attack certain target within a limited amount of time or face potentially game-ending punishment, the punishment NEEDS TO be game-ending, otherwise, the player would just spam his/her way out of that punishment. I am not saying that it would be impossible to make a level that doesn't encourage players to spam/turtle, but such level would likely be considered very hard by players because the game has not trained player the appropriate skill to perform complicated timing attack or so. It is easy to describe timing attack as getting as much units as possible to attack the enemy by the certain deadline, but what next? How do you make any of the strategy non-trivial? There is no enemy threat that could create a major disruption to player's plan. Most threats can be dealt with by building the appropriate unit(s). As said, this will not be an easy problem. I once thought that slow turtle, and the unit spamming strategy it usually comes with, will be beaten by growing threat, that is, the threat that grows over time, only to find out that players would just out-spam the opponent. Also, even if we could manage to make a series of levels which force players to rush many targets by different deadlines, should we? Would we want the game to turn into a blitzkrieg where players would try to rush the entire map instead of using steady, methodical approach? And by careful I mean very careful, I've played many cornucanis maps, maps which uses flip emitter as player's weapon, as it turns out, you just pick on the weakest target one by one, slowly advancing. Simply limiting player's weapon wouldn't be enough. This is a problem in which I've yet to see the solution, the solution, if existing, will be non-trivial.
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Oh... limiting everything? Maybe too much? So... players would quickly max out then move out and rush? I think making creeper smarter is the option, but by how much?
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Creeper upgrade would be cool, making players improve over time, but there is a fine balance between map which rewards spamming and rushing. For creeper finding "weak point", I guess it's somewhat difficult. I'm thinking about the "path of least resistance" where the creeper would try to find a target it can achieve without much resistance. That would make the creeper smarter to some degree, but what next? If you can't do that... well, I'm not quite convinced. It is not easy to program the concept of "weak" point. And it's not simply about fixing certain problem, it's about adding strategic depth without making the game too hard, too complex. I think the issue stems from the early day where players were less sophisticated, players would start off defeating a small amount of creeper before moving to larger and larger amount, then, new players would think more creeper equals harder level, so, players would start the campaign from "easy" levels with less creeper and move to "harder and harder" levels, then to find out that they could spam, then used that strategy for the rest of thr game, making players lack skills to play levels without spamming.
Now I want a 3D partial fleet with another epic soundtrack
Finally see you uploading new content congratulations
Thanks for video, Master Miksu! :)
Dam...
Sad there aren't any big berthas
I'm sure someone will mod one in
The previous video had them. So I'm sure they're somewhere in the game.
@@tantamounted it's possible to mod in custom units so it's probably a custom unit somone made and put on a map
@@KeinNiemand That was one of the maps in the game's storyline. If it's custom and not available elsewhere, well, at least they were nice to have.
I used to love creeper world for its creativity but now I kinda just come to look for new mechanics before everything turns dull once again. Everything can be beaten by spamming.
I once thought that threats like sleepers would solve the problem by forcing the player to build fast and leave player with no time to build up the required energy to spam, but no, players just win by out-spamming the sleeper. You always have enough time to build your economy even if that means you have to manage to build optimally because playing optimally is easy (build collectors first, respond to early threats just in time, spam out the rest of the game).
And when there are actually some maps in which you couldn't win by spamming, the best nightmare comes true, the game does not prepare the player to face such a challenge in any significant way. Players could play to the end of the game by spamming.
I got really excited about this series and spent many hours playing CW3, but in the end, I am leaving. I beat the entirety of the CW4 demo levels and all I did was spam units. This problem, in my honest opinion, is the result of the dynamic of the game and is something which cannot be easily fixed. So unfortunate. Have a good luck if you find this game fun, but I'm leaving the creeper world series.
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Thanks for the suggestion, but it is not JUST anything. For example, players might play levels with unit cap by holding until the forge until the player has maxed out then move out. It is NOT just fine-tuning the unit cap, for many levels, it's just about getting out enough unit (perhaps within a limited time).
One kind of level that would be interesting would be a level where you need to attack certain target within a limited amount of time or face potentially game-ending punishment, the punishment NEEDS TO be game-ending, otherwise, the player would just spam his/her way out of that punishment. I am not saying that it would be impossible to make a level that doesn't encourage players to spam/turtle, but such level would likely be considered very hard by players because the game has not trained player the appropriate skill to perform complicated timing attack or so. It is easy to describe timing attack as getting as much units as possible to attack the enemy by the certain deadline, but what next? How do you make any of the strategy non-trivial? There is no enemy threat that could create a major disruption to player's plan. Most threats can be dealt with by building the appropriate unit(s). As said, this will not be an easy problem. I once thought that slow turtle, and the unit spamming strategy it usually comes with, will be beaten by growing threat, that is, the threat that grows over time, only to find out that players would just out-spam the opponent. Also, even if we could manage to make a series of levels which force players to rush many targets by different deadlines, should we? Would we want the game to turn into a blitzkrieg where players would try to rush the entire map instead of using steady, methodical approach? And by careful I mean very careful, I've played many cornucanis maps, maps which uses flip emitter as player's weapon, as it turns out, you just pick on the weakest target one by one, slowly advancing. Simply limiting player's weapon wouldn't be enough. This is a problem in which I've yet to see the solution, the solution, if existing, will be non-trivial.
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Oh... limiting everything? Maybe too much? So... players would quickly max out then move out and rush? I think making creeper smarter is the option, but by how much?
@Dominotik Ivan Tulovskiy Creeper upgrade would be cool, making players improve over time, but there is a fine balance between map which rewards spamming and rushing. For creeper finding "weak point", I guess it's somewhat difficult. I'm thinking about the "path of least resistance" where the creeper would try to find a target it can achieve without much resistance. That would make the creeper smarter to some degree, but what next? If you can't do that... well, I'm not quite convinced. It is not easy to program the concept of "weak" point.
And it's not simply about fixing certain problem, it's about adding strategic depth without making the game too hard, too complex. I think the issue stems from the early day where players were less sophisticated, players would start off defeating a small amount of creeper before moving to larger and larger amount, then, new players would think more creeper equals harder level, so, players would start the campaign from "easy" levels with less creeper and move to "harder and harder" levels, then to find out that they could spam, then used that strategy for the rest of thr game, making players lack skills to play levels without spamming.