This is one of my favorite segments. Two guys who seem to know a TON about the history of wrestling doing what if's. It is great to hear Cornette get stumped.
Verne tried to come to LA in 1969. He wanted to run the Forum, which had only been open for two years. He thought that if he ran the more modern building he would get a foothold in the LA market. Of course, when the LaBelles got wind of what was happening that's when they called on the NWA and put on a loaded show at the Olympic the same night. As a result the Olympic show drew over 10,000 while the Forum show drew only 4,000 and it would be 16 years before Verne would set foot in Los Angeles again.
Territory wrestling is Ironworkers meets the Mafia. Tough guys in a brotherhood that you're making tons of money. Others want in but only a select few make it. Having Mafia tendencies like thousands of dollars in cash, all the drugs and sex, etc. When these guys get going on classic history, I always fantasize about a Hollywood big budget film on Territory wrestling, the business side of things. The inner workings of these meetings between promoters, ousting one another, the balance of power, all the violence and racial tension from the 1950s and 60s. It would make for such a compelling full length feature film.
WWWF was off regular tv from 68-75 as well, not available on 'regular tv', vhf, the 2-13 Chanel's, only on uhf, the higher numbered stations which required a second antenna much of that time, or a rotating antenna (mid-70's). Very difficult in any case to receive the signal until WWWF championship Wrestling returned to WOR Channel Nine in August 1975. Prior to that the only reception was Channel 47 from New Jersey after 1968, but low signal. Yes children it was a different world.
are you from NY too? I agree that 47 was an issue and I truly believe WWWF gave Pedro the belt because he complimented that station which was Spanish, Italian, and religious until becoming Telemundo. I also wonder if WOR would have aired WWWF if not for the promotional war vs. Einhorn IWA which was on WOR as well. That is clearly what led to WWWF getting on that station.
If there's any kids watching that weren't born when phones were still attached to the wall, prior to 1980 everything was regional. There were no national cable networks, everything was local or regional. Travel was inconvenient. Long distance phone calls were expensive. In the 60s and 70s, doing business in New York out of Minnesota, or Georgia, or the Mid-Atlantic, would have been a big deal.
Crusher Verdu was the big new heel when I first got into following wrestling. He SEEMED impressive back then with no one even knocking him off his feet (the debuting manager Lou Albano helped too.) But thinking back on his matches, well if you look up immobile in the dictionary there's a picture of Verdu.
They said Buffalo, wasn't ready in 66 but would have been primed a couple years later, could the NWA have backed Buffalo and had other territories help build thier guys and made the buffalo office state wide and eventuality take over the north east
I Was Always Surprised that VJM/Vince Sr. Didn't Consider Mark Lewin Either in Case Bruno Wasn't Available or Because Mark Was Often Seen as "Vince Sr.'s Favorite Baby(face)"
He'd probably have come back in a heartbeat if he thought nicking MSG was a possibility. He came back for a hell of a lot less when Georgia was up for grabs. Granted, that was when WCW was on its downward slide but WCW at its peak still never drew a fraction of what Vince Sr could pull.
I can tell you without a doubt Bobo Brazil would have drawn flies in the Boston Garden in the late 60's as WWWF champion. Bill Russell and the Boston Celtics were winning championship after championship in a half empty Garden every night. If Boston wasnt going to pay to see Bill Russell, why the hell would they pay to see Bobo Brazil in the main events?
Andy Mejia and that’s a good point, but Boston was a very racist city. Maybe in the other cities, they could draw a strong minority crowd to see one of their people be the headliners, and no doubt there’d be blacks in Boston that’d see a black champion, but considering how Boston has been with racially, that may not be a great draw. Then again, Bill Watts put significant emphasis on guys like Ernie Ladd and JYD in Louisiana and the surrounding region, and that didn’t hurt him at all.
@@mydogsnameislucy768 you're right. The NBA was averaging about 5,000 per game in the 60s. It was nowhere close to NHL or wrestling. (Or outdoor sports). And even though it doesnt fit some peoples narrative, Boston did support Celtics very well compared to other cities becauae Celtics were one if highest attendances in 1960s,..in the 8000-10,000 range. Almost twice the league average. Wilt scored his 100pts game with about 4,000 fans.
The Celtics attendance in 1960s was about twice the league average of about 5,000, so one of the teams along with lakers that was the most popular. It simply wasnt as popular as hockey or wrestling which had been filling hockey arenas for decades.
"Would Bobo Brazil have been an option" HELL NO, especially in Boston. The Boston Celtics won 8 world titles in a row in a half empty Boston Garden becausd they were the most diverse team in the league. Bobo in 66 wouldn't have drawn here. Maybe Philly tho
@@SuperJoshdave There are plenty of better words. Did you know English has twice the vocabulary of other languages due to the Norman Invasion? Every time your English teacher cashes a check she's stealing.
there would be no wrestling business at all now, everything still would've happened all the same just with a less intelligent guy in Vince jr's spot rading terrories.
Depending on who takes the ashes of the northeast things could go radically different. The right guy controlling it the natonal expansion could of started earlier. Put superstar graham nationally with someone controlling the major east and west coast cities lets say. New York and a revived L.A. as the hubs might of worked by around 70 once they got tv back.
Tim F Vince was the guy to do it, but Every other major touring shows(circus,concert promoters) were already nationalizing or already had. I just assume someone could of gotten a money man to prop up at least a semi independent nwa setup(st louis? Or is it Kansas City that was a one town all star show) running off a major tv channel and only running the biggest cities with territories filling in the smaller cities.
tim fabregas (THIS IS A BIT LONG, JUST LETTING Y'ALL KNOW) Both of y'all made good points. It was Sam Muchnick's St. Loius Wrestling Club that was the 1 city territory you are thinking of that ran the territory out of one city, St. Louis Missouri. Kansas City was the booking office for Orville Brown/Bob Geigel's Heart of America Sports/Central States Wrestling territory (owner and name depended on the time period), and that promotion ran shows out of Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa. I have a tendency to mix them up as well. As for Billy Graham. Do you think he would have been a good choice to be a long term face of a company? After he dropped the World Title, Billy Graham fell off bad, both mentally and in the ring. He couldn't handle not being "the guy", after being "the guy". His work afterwards was either very bad to mediocre. When the CWA made him their champion in 1979, his performance in the match where he dropped the belt to Lawler was supposedly so bad that it began his spiral out of pro wrestling for a couple of years. I think I read the jist of that in Cornette's Louisville Gardens book. When Graham was on he was great at his style of pro wrestling. Great promo, great look, great bleeder. Not much to look at work rate wise though. I think Dusty Rhodes would have worked better in the spot you suggested. As for someone going national, yeah that was bound to happen. So many were already talking about it. I believe Fritz Von Erich's sons want him to take World Class national. Bill Watts knew it as well, but seemed to have waited too long. Crockett knew it but he hesitated as well. Even though Crockett picked up 5 territories to add to Mid-Atlantic, he was playing catch up to Vince Jr. Vince Jr arguably had the best business sense out of any promotor, that's why he was able to succeed taking the WWF national when others failed. His merchandising was genius. Even when the WWF had down periods, the money they made off of merchandise kept them going when other promotions/territories would have went out of business. People can love him or hate him but he was the right person to make taking a territory national work. Whether if we agree that taking the pro wrestling business national was best for pro wrestling and its fans is a whole other argument. Sorry bout the length y'all. Had a lot to say.
During the early 60's while living in Brooklyn, the Saturday nite wrestling show, from 8-11 on WNEW 5 were de riguer. My personal highlite while watching the matches were arguments between grandpa who swore wrestling real vs dad, a collegiate wrestler at NYU in the 1930's. He tried convincing grandpa it was staged without any success.
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I'm very impressed with Brian's knowledge of wrestling history
You 2 should get married
@@mitchellpilkington7433
Holy shit. You must be some sort of turbovirgin. 😂
This is one of my favorite segments. Two guys who seem to know a TON about the history of wrestling doing what if's. It is great to hear Cornette get stumped.
Verne tried to come to LA in 1969. He wanted to run the Forum, which had only been open for two years. He thought that if he ran the more modern building he would get a foothold in the LA market. Of course, when the LaBelles got wind of what was happening that's when they called on the NWA and put on a loaded show at the Olympic the same night. As a result the Olympic show drew over 10,000 while the Forum show drew only 4,000 and it would be 16 years before Verne would set foot in Los Angeles again.
So did Roy Shire
@@drsleep4519 I never knew that. Btw, ironically when Verne came back in 1985 he didn't go to the Forum but to the Olympic.
Was it a show, or was this the one that LaBelle had essentially a wrestling convention? The fans got in for free and got free autographs and pictures.
Territory wrestling is Ironworkers meets the Mafia. Tough guys in a brotherhood that you're making tons of money. Others want in but only a select few make it.
Having Mafia tendencies like thousands of dollars in cash, all the drugs and sex, etc.
When these guys get going on classic history, I always fantasize about a Hollywood big budget film on Territory wrestling, the business side of things. The inner workings of these meetings between promoters, ousting one another, the balance of power, all the violence and racial tension from the 1950s and 60s. It would make for such a compelling full length feature film.
WWWF was off regular tv from 68-75 as well, not available on 'regular tv', vhf, the 2-13 Chanel's, only on uhf, the higher numbered stations which required a second antenna much of that time, or a rotating antenna (mid-70's). Very difficult in any case to receive the signal until WWWF championship Wrestling returned to WOR Channel Nine in August 1975. Prior to that the only reception was Channel 47 from New Jersey after 1968, but low signal. Yes children it was a different world.
are you from NY too?
I agree that 47 was an issue and I truly believe WWWF gave Pedro the belt because he complimented that station which was Spanish, Italian, and religious until becoming Telemundo.
I also wonder if WOR would have aired WWWF if not for the promotional war vs. Einhorn IWA which was on WOR as well. That is clearly what led to WWWF getting on that station.
If there's any kids watching that weren't born when phones were still attached to the wall, prior to 1980 everything was regional. There were no national cable networks, everything was local or regional. Travel was inconvenient. Long distance phone calls were expensive.
In the 60s and 70s, doing business in New York out of Minnesota, or Georgia, or the Mid-Atlantic, would have been a big deal.
Lmao, thanks for the "history" lesson.
Crusher Verdu was the big new heel when I first got into following wrestling. He SEEMED impressive back then with no one even knocking him off his feet (the debuting manager Lou Albano helped too.) But thinking back on his matches, well if you look up immobile in the dictionary there's a picture of Verdu.
I love how fast Brian talks because he knows Jim will cut him off lol
Lewin Was Often Called Vince Sr.'s "Favorite Baby(face)" at the Time
Verne Gagne or Eddie Graham would've got together to get control of New York & the Northeast.
Eddie taking over= Championship Wrestling from NY with Gordon Solie!
or. together.
huh?
Except Crockett DID invade NYC... in 1963-1964. Pedro Martinez actually ran MSG from 1960-1961.
They said Buffalo, wasn't ready in 66 but would have been primed a couple years later, could the NWA have backed Buffalo and had other territories help build thier guys and made the buffalo office state wide and eventuality take over the north east
I Was Always Surprised that VJM/Vince Sr. Didn't Consider Mark Lewin Either in Case Bruno Wasn't Available or Because Mark Was Often Seen as "Vince Sr.'s Favorite Baby(face)"
In '66, Barnett was busy with Australia.
He'd probably have come back in a heartbeat if he thought nicking MSG was a possibility. He came back for a hell of a lot less when Georgia was up for grabs. Granted, that was when WCW was on its downward slide but WCW at its peak still never drew a fraction of what Vince Sr could pull.
@Smith Hart Jim Barnett's Australian promotion was called World Championship Wrestling. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Championship_Wrestling_(Australia)
I can tell you without a doubt Bobo Brazil would have drawn flies in the Boston Garden in the late 60's as WWWF champion. Bill Russell and the Boston Celtics were winning championship after championship in a half empty Garden every night. If Boston wasnt going to pay to see Bill Russell, why the hell would they pay to see Bobo Brazil in the main events?
Wrestling was probably bigger than basketball at that time.
Andy Mejia and that’s a good point, but Boston was a very racist city. Maybe in the other cities, they could draw a strong minority crowd to see one of their people be the headliners, and no doubt there’d be blacks in Boston that’d see a black champion, but considering how Boston has been with racially, that may not be a great draw.
Then again, Bill Watts put significant emphasis on guys like Ernie Ladd and JYD in Louisiana and the surrounding region, and that didn’t hurt him at all.
@@mydogsnameislucy768 you're right. The NBA was averaging about 5,000 per game in the 60s. It was nowhere close to NHL or wrestling. (Or outdoor sports). And even though it doesnt fit some peoples narrative, Boston did support Celtics very well compared to other cities becauae Celtics were one if highest attendances in 1960s,..in the 8000-10,000 range. Almost twice the league average. Wilt scored his 100pts game with about 4,000 fans.
The Celtics attendance in 1960s was about twice the league average of about 5,000, so one of the teams along with lakers that was the most popular. It simply wasnt as popular as hockey or wrestling which had been filling hockey arenas for decades.
Well, that’s what happen when you have a town full of bigots.
*Bobo Brazil was actually WWE/WWWF's first ever US Champion....*
The first and last champion.
If Verne would of been able to keep Hogan it would be the AWA that would be here now.
Terry Whinery Should’ve had Hogan win title.
@@djray369 Hogan turned it down, as I would have screwed up his deal with New Japan.
Imagine what msg would be like then
"Would Bobo Brazil have been an option"
HELL NO, especially in Boston. The Boston Celtics won 8 world titles in a row in a half empty Boston Garden becausd they were the most diverse team in the league. Bobo in 66 wouldn't have drawn here. Maybe Philly tho
If they’re looking for a black champ, why not Ernie Ladd?
Ernie always was his own man they couldn’t control him for lack of a better word
And besides he was a heel
@@SuperJoshdave There are plenty of better words. Did you know English has twice the vocabulary of other languages due to the Norman Invasion? Every time your English teacher cashes a check she's stealing.
I like how you used a Ladd reference to insult me. But what I said was accurate.
@@SuperJoshdave "they couldn't control him for lack of a better word" is inaccurate. There is no lack of a better word.
Jim Cournette looks like a nerdy Henry Rollins
kooooooooooooooooooooool ;---)
there would be no wrestling business at all now, everything still would've happened all the same just with a less intelligent guy in Vince jr's spot rading terrories.
Depending on who takes the ashes of the northeast things could go radically different. The right guy controlling it the natonal expansion could of started earlier. Put superstar graham nationally with someone controlling the major east and west coast cities lets say. New York and a revived L.A. as the hubs might of worked by around 70 once they got tv back.
Tim F Vince was the guy to do it, but Every other major touring shows(circus,concert promoters) were already nationalizing or already had. I just assume someone could of gotten a money man to prop up at least a semi independent nwa setup(st louis? Or is it Kansas City that was a one town all star show) running off a major tv channel and only running the biggest cities with territories filling in the smaller cities.
tim fabregas (THIS IS A BIT LONG, JUST LETTING Y'ALL KNOW) Both of y'all made good points. It was Sam Muchnick's St. Loius Wrestling Club that was the 1 city territory you are thinking of that ran the territory out of one city, St. Louis Missouri. Kansas City was the booking office for Orville Brown/Bob Geigel's Heart of America Sports/Central States Wrestling territory (owner and name depended on the time period), and that promotion ran shows out of Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa. I have a tendency to mix them up as well. As for Billy Graham. Do you think he would have been a good choice to be a long term face of a company? After he dropped the World Title, Billy Graham fell off bad, both mentally and in the ring. He couldn't handle not being "the guy", after being "the guy". His work afterwards was either very bad to mediocre. When the CWA made him their champion in 1979, his performance in the match where he dropped the belt to Lawler was supposedly so bad that it began his spiral out of pro wrestling for a couple of years. I think I read the jist of that in Cornette's Louisville Gardens book. When Graham was on he was great at his style of pro wrestling. Great promo, great look, great bleeder. Not much to look at work rate wise though. I think Dusty Rhodes would have worked better in the spot you suggested. As for someone going national, yeah that was bound to happen. So many were already talking about it. I believe Fritz Von Erich's sons want him to take World Class national. Bill Watts knew it as well, but seemed to have waited too long. Crockett knew it but he hesitated as well. Even though Crockett picked up 5 territories to add to Mid-Atlantic, he was playing catch up to Vince Jr. Vince Jr arguably had the best business sense out of any promotor, that's why he was able to succeed taking the WWF national when others failed. His merchandising was genius. Even when the WWF had down periods, the money they made off of merchandise kept them going when other promotions/territories would have went out of business. People can love him or hate him but he was the right person to make taking a territory national work. Whether if we agree that taking the pro wrestling business national was best for pro wrestling and its fans is a whole other argument. Sorry bout the length y'all. Had a lot to say.
Travis W The business much like roaches will survive. HHH has a better grasp
or more intelligent guy
During the early 60's while living in Brooklyn, the Saturday nite wrestling show, from 8-11 on WNEW 5 were de riguer. My personal highlite while watching the matches were arguments between grandpa who swore wrestling real vs dad, a collegiate wrestler at NYU in the 1930's. He tried convincing grandpa it was staged without any success.