Ladies and gentlemen... this is Chad that made the device. You can ask him super technical questions if you like about what he and I are trying to do with www.lantern.systems , but I mostly think you should make fun of him for not wearing safety glasses while testing a safety product.
What part of the wood would cause a kickback? If its the backside why not use a small piece of metal to act as a small wedge to prevent that in the first place?
@@Ramzeke You're right, it's always the back edge of the blade. That's where the blade starts digging in and lifting the saw off the table. And yes, there are passive solutions, like you say, like a riving knife. This doesn't replace those. Why not use both? Once you see it work, it just kind of seems dumb that it's not already there.
@@chadgreen376 of course! I never meant to make it seem what you have done so far to be stupid, its pure genius and I applaud you for your efforts so far!
This type of kick back prevention has been used in some hand drills. Older ones use only torque spikes to detect drill jams, but new ones have also acceleration sensor. Bosch DDH181X is one example.
This could have prevented my accident, when I was 10 years old I was using my dad's power saw, the same incident happened to me when the saw hit a knot in a 2x6, the saw kicked back and landed in my right thigh ripping into my quadriceps muscles and caused me to have emergency surgery to reconstruct the damage. I was crippled for nearly a year and a half and still took a few more years to finally get back to 100% use. I am now 63 years old and the scar on my right thigh is a reminder of a horrific day, my dad discovered me laying on the floor in a puddle of blood, dad removed his belt, I thought I was going to get a spanking for doing something bad but dad took the belt and tide it around my leg at the top of my thigh and laid me in the back seat of the car on my older brothers lap as he rushed me to the hospital, I passed out from the loss of blood during the fast drive to the hospital. My brother had told the story how dad grasped me from his lap and ran into the hospital with me dangling in his arms like a rag doll screaming at the staff that his blood type was the same as mine, I remember waking up and my dad was lying next to me, he had a tube running from is arm that was taking his blood and they was transferring it to both of my arms. Your design is needed even if it prevents just one injury. I hope my story will fuel your work and help convince manufacturers of the need for your design. Eric, Kennedale, TX
10 years old and saws don't mix but I used to use saws like these, lathes and other dangerous machines when I was young like from 8 to 15 years because my uncle had them and we made stuff but I lucky never got cut
Thank you for your story, it deserves more likes. You are completely right about preventing just one more accident, this invention could be the difference between life and death for another family out there right now. Imagine if your father had not found you in time.
There's alot that can be improved with tools I mean, I think DeWalt or one of the big names has a table saw that senses human skin, and stops injury But unlike other table saws like that, which shove a piece of steel into the blade, wrecking it; this one drops the blade to below the table But anyways my grandfather got injured by a planer. After he had used it, and it was spooling down (this was when my dad was in middle school, and Gramps never really had alot of common sense according to dad) he decided he wanted to clean it. So he reached his hand into the machine, with the rotors/cylinders/whatever still spooling down (it was turned off, but they take a while to stop). All 4 of his fingers on that hand were TORN off. Not cut off, TORN. And the fingers were also shredded in the machine as well. From then until the day he died, his right hand was a palm, a thumb, and 4 stubs where his fingers used to be
machinery and computer engineering design is still not rocket science. Just because you don't have the expertise to understand something, that doesn't make it rocket science. What this channel does is mostly just basic slow mo capture and basic elementary science that even layman can understand. Real rocket science would make for a boring TH-cam video because very few people have the mathematics or engineering degrees required to understand it.
As an operating room nurse in a trauma center, I have been in countless cases where kick back injuries have occurred. Table saws make up the majority of the injuries I see compared to other tools, but I fully support and appreciate your efforts to make all saws safer. Thank you for your work and your awesome videos.
Now license the thing, but keep your license fees low enough so tool manufacturers actually want to implement it. The guy who has the patent on the table saw stop wants way too much hence why it's not in any table saws.
@@brandoncumbie6866 With a hand saw the wood (object being cut) is stationary and the saw moves through it. With a table saw, the saw is stationary while the wood moves. This tech works by measuring variations in the movement of the saw. When a table saw kicks back it throws the wood, not the saw. The saw-stop (aka the 'hot-dog saw') doesn't care about kick backs, it measures conductivity (or so I've been told) to know when it hits something that should not be there. This kick-back killer would happily allow you to dice up a whole box of kittens as long as you didn't bind the blade.
My eye was saved or at the very least didnt require suturing cuz i was wearing my prescription glasses which deflected a tiny glass shard. So if youre doing any work that has a chance of things flying, wear some kind of protection.
What if we put machine learning into the safety glasses so that they whip down to cover your eyes when there's danger incoming? Feel free to develop and patent that idea too, Destin. You get that one for free.
When I first saw this video I'm like naw this will never happen to me here I am 10 months later I have 16 stitches in my leg lol For anyone starting to work with these tools be careful
One very important rule to save lives on a circle saw table is this. Adjust the saw blade to the height you want to saw. Drop that blade into the table, as far as possible. If you get an accident, you may cut off a finger, but not an arm. When the blade is too high, you can do far more damage. Most people do not know this, and take a huge risk, each time they saw only small stuff, because the blade is set up to kill them. One mistake and it could be game over! That is another type of saw, but I think it is worth warning you all, who have no idea and still use such a saw. You need proper schooling before you even look at such devices.
He didn't though. He couldn't even make a proper cut as he first described he would. He just showed it shutting off in he's hands. Where's the complete cut?? I bet you can't even push it forward without it having to cut out on you.
When you hold the saw the right way it wont kickback as much like that, plus you will ear the saw changing sound right before it kick. Most people injured by circular saw was using/holding it wrong.
I love how he's only favouring the comments that praise this idea instead of the well thought out critical ones that are polite and concise. Just lost some respect for SED.
Hey Dustin, big fan of your videos. As I am picking up woodworking I would love to see this in every circular saw. Just curious, any updates on the implementation in saws out in the market?
While I watch you channel pretty often, I've discovered this gem just now. That is really awesome, and I wish manufacturers will be interedted in this. There's still a lot of work to do to turn this system (with a very sensible captor) into something robust enough to last on jobsites. Cheers from France and thank you for such a usefull research.
Just out of curiosity why is the blade gaurd disengaged? I worked carpentry for a while and as long as you are paying attention and using the saw properly (both hands!) kickback can't over power you (you would have to be very very weak).
I understand what you are saying, but legit question: how fast is that mechanical blade guard? Is it slower than this product? I bet it is. Note that other commenters have mentioned people who have lost fingers or worse. You would think that at least some of the victims had their guards engaged, but yet ...
They probably tied it up so it wouldn't get in the way of testing a worst-case scenario; working in construction and remodeling, we have had a few dropped saws end up with damage that causes the blade guard to jam open. None of those are in everyday use though, thankfully. But yes, proper attention and a solid grip practically eliminates the risk of kickback. In my experience, in non-user-error-related scenarios like cutting stringers out of cupped 2x12s and ripping boards with self-contained conflicting crowns, the motor always gets overpowered first.
As a carpenter for 9000000 years (3 years) I've seen a man have a saw go straight in his thigh from Kick Back. It was the scariest thing to ever happen in my life so far.
Id love to see that Feature on a sawzall cause you get kickbacks with those all the time when you have to cut out old windows. Also you often have to use it without the guard to get it in properly.
Never ever- EVER -support the work on the cutoff side of the saw. That’s sawing 101!!!! Always secure the work under the motor (heavy) side of the blade and allow the cutoff to drop away from the blade. For sheets and awkward pieces support both sides nearly equally under the work to avoid blade pinch. I use stringers across under the work for sheetgoods and barely score them as I make my cut. Chipping is reduced as well. It’s important to always set the blade to the proper depth. Just deep enough to clear the underside a bit. That way the cutting action is nearly horizontal and teeth clear the chips vertically. Then the cutoff drops away and down. If a circular blade is set too deep it will make a nearly vertical full thinkness cut forcing the material to twist and buck the blade.
coldrunner we’ve created the solution for a problem we’ve created where we’ve removed all safety features and have forced the tool into an unsafe operating environment.
Actually, the blade cover closes from the direction that you are standing in first. Otherwise, you'd need to manually open the cover before each cut. This means that when kickback occurs, the blade guard will immediately cover the most dangerous region.
The guard does not spring back fast enough I have cut a chest guard off a harness I was wearing with kick back you obviously do not use a worm drive often
"Gonadular region" is now part of my vernacular. But more importantly, this may save countless Gonadular regions from unexpected saw-based intrusion...
I'm curious to see what the firmware looks like as well as their framework that compares that analyzes incoming the incoming data. Guess I'll just have to wait for the next video.
Couldn't you have also installed a safety button at the base of the saw that when set of the wood, would allow the blade to spin, and when released would trigger the braking system. Maybe the placement of said safety would be a problem, but otherwise I feel this would work. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
This is really cool. We had sawstops for our table saws a while back when i went to highschool and i personally watched that system save fingers. But we also had some really close calls with the hand saws. Stuff like this is really important for not so attentive highschoolers who are getting into woodworking.
But would that prevent the kickback here? Because he ran into a knot? (and yes, never seen one for this type of saw). Plus, did they do anything (else) wrong, using this saw?
Destin, watching your enuthsiasm and excitement when it comes to science and engineering makes me WANT to learn physics. I just wish i had the mental aptitude to learn it quickly.
SMART IDEA, STUPID WAY TO ACCOMPLISH IT! What would be wrong with attaching a limit switch to the plate that would activate the brake? When you start a cut you rest the front of the PLATE on your work. During a kickback event the PLATE rises off the work. Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just not allow the saw to power up if you don't start the cut with the PLATE on your work and to brake the saw the moment it comes off the work? My idea is a lot cheaper therefore more likely to be implemented. Unfortunately I don't have the time and money to invest in it like those guys do. Question is: Are they to proud to drop this finished complicated idea and persue a simpler cheaper idea?
A quote from another comment: "A contact switch wouldn't work. Vibration would set them off. Different orientations of the saw would become problematic. How would you start the cut when half the saw is not in contact. They would wear out and be prone to damage, and the hardware would cost more than this sensor based solution. This really is a good solution. I have never had one kick back, and never stand behind the saw, so may not be needed, but for the $2-3US it would cost, I would buy the saw with it vs the one without all things equal. It would be really good for chainsaws, and probably a few dozen other tools. I wouldn't mind having it added to the more powerful drills, so that when the bit grabs it doesn't twist your arm off. Drill press, detect if the work starts spinning (bit different sensor problem). With the right sensors you might even be able to detect and stop table saw kickback." - Court He makes a very good point at the end of his comment. This technology isn't just for this kind of saw. It could apply to *all* powered saws, nay, all power tools in general.
@billy vandory Well that's a very big assumption to make. He's just developed the software to stop power tools when specific criteria are met. He hasn't forced any companies to do anything. It's not over-engineered; it's a safety mechanism that's surprisingly cheap, effective, easy to implement and resistant to failure. Also, nothing in the final product uses AI of any sort. They used machine learning to teach it what sensor input should trigger the stop and that's all.
Hear me out, because I see another application... I have cut miles and miles of lumber with a circular saw, and never had a kickback. Not to say that I am that good, but to say that a circular saw is reasonably easy to handle when the blade binds. Having said that, I still think it is a marketable feature - especially to high school wood shops. I think a better place is in a big router. Have you ever used a hand held router with a one inch wide bit? Those bigger bits can cause some nasty kickback, and a high rpm bit pulling in a shirt would be terrifying, and a nasty injury! Maybe this is just me, but I would pay extra to have that in a router, but would skip the circular saw.
Jason Sanders That's actually a good idea. Routers are the worst with kickbacks. Make you break into a cold sweat when it happens just picturing that bit getting caught in my shirt and chewing my stomach up. I work every day in construction and have for years and have never had a problem with circular saw kickbacks. Routers and table saws get my full attention though, like I'm milking poisonous snakes or something.
Brilliant!!! No brainer in my eyes. I seen so many times building homes with saws getting caked up with sawdust on a wet day and that Guard not coming back down when it should and run across a brand new pair of boots. Things happy quick when they go wrong
I'm a carpenter and I have a scar on by leg from a kick back.Also work with a carpenter that a bad scar on his forehead cutting above.Wished this was out in the Seventies.
That's what I was wondering, pretty sure they made that for this purpose and when you you accidentally press the trigger when not I position. They should of recorded a slow motion of how fast the cover responds to a kick back.
While the guard should be enabled there are times during kickback that the spring is way to slow to return the guard to rest position (have run into the issue although never with an injury). Secondly this idea would help protect the user in the case that you have to disable or manually hold the guard open (which happens quit a bit in construction.)
The blade guard can only close when it's completely out of the wood. This system stops it much faster. If there is less chance of it even getting out of the wood. Than the chance of it hitting you is also smaller
Grandpa taught me to tie back all the saw guards with a piece of bailing wire. 😅 Body positioning goes a long way. Standing off to the side and keeping an eye on your cords is important. This is a cool project and as long as there was an option to disarm the kickback safety I wouldn't mind having a little intelligence in my tools. If it wasn't able to be bypassed I'd avoid products with it however.
I'm betting by what looks like balloon fragments, he tested how much dmg a paint filled water balloon takes when hit by kick back, and by a saw that has its motor seized but guard still open to help prove a point.
This video really gripped me and hope this is applied to every saw in the future. My father lost his thumb and half his hand due to kick back at 60 years of age(been a carpenter all his life) seeing what hes been through really makes me hope nobody ever has to suffer from any injury from circular saws again! Keep up the good work hope this is mandatory for saws very soon!! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Hey SmarterEveryDay I would also love to see this on a drill. When you got big drills like my rigid 24v hammer drill that has a double handle. There has been times that it caught and about broke my wrist.
Correct me if I am overlooking something here. But. Most saws of this type, as far as I've seen has a spring loaded blade shield. If the saw leaves the surface, it snaps shut. You could even add redundancy by adding a wheel actuated kill switch. Both seem more robust and cheaper to add than the accelerometer thingy.. :/
That, and my $25 black and decker saw has a better brake than the one they demonstrated with. Good for them, but circular saw kickback (even with more powerful saws) is not nearly as big a problem as they are suggesting. Using a circular saw like a table saw is not a good idea, even if you have a smart tool like they made.
A lot of people jam the guards open or remove them entirely because of the inconvenience of them getting in the way, this is a solution for those people.
@@lux_incola4224 Thus the stupid people are not culled from the herd as they should be and the human race gets dumber and dumber because they are left to breed.
I'm a high school senior and I'm going to be a carpenter. Half of my day is in the shop at my votech school and we have a sawstop table saw. We also have circular saws that we use every single day, if you didn't hear a blade squeel that day people were probably not using circular saws that day. So for you to basically to invent anti kickback for circular saws it makes me very excited. So we don't get turned from a rooster to a hen.
This idea, is right up there with the table saw sensor that stops when it contacts a finger, or some such. Good luck with your patenting. Keep up the good work.
@@phatshet5479 Like a hot knife through butter. Take a look at that slow-mo of it barely grazing the wood with just it's own weight again - 2:45 Now imagine instead of a hard piece of wood being there, it's a piece of soft cloth/leather that sucks the blade in as it snags up.
Depending on how fast you are stoping the blade this might be great for table saws. The Saw Stop table saw is amazing but it damages the stop and blade when it is triggered. It would be awesome to use magnets to stop the blade and be able to keep working!
@@geulach The purpose of this video is to bring attention to the development of safety measures and the dude developing it have the patent for it and now he can license it to multiple companies for their tools.
Being a general contractor, I've felt my heart stop a few times while using saws! Saws (including table saws and reciprocating saws) are very dangerous -- even when used correctly. I use DeWALT, and my business partner uses Milwaukee, and we would both like this technology in our saws! All of our saws. I named those brands specifically so this comment may show up on their radars! Now, if only these guys could come up with a hammer that doesn't hurt when you hit your finger! Fortunately, that's rare for me nowadays.
This will likely be something you'll see available as a 3rd party device that can be added to any saw. Because lawyers. If a manufacturer adds this feature and it fails to stop a kickback that results in injury, the tool manufacturer is liable. It's the primary reason you don't see safety features added unless there is some related safety mandate passed down by the gov.
I had a kick back event once building my house. The blade guard is good but what happens is you tend to keep a downward force on the saw after it lifts out of the cut channel. There is enough force downward to keep the blade in contact with the surface preventing the guard from wrapping between the blade and surface. The saw put some nice gouges in the floor but fortunately I had good position so it was no where near any part of me. When I start to get lazy, I just have to remember that heart stopping moment of run-away saw! Only use sharp blades and think about positioning of the piece you are cutting and your position.
@@TheAlphapuck5280 No, it stops kickbacks, it will hapilly saw through any meat you feed it, provided you don't make it kickback. Whereas a sawstop will happilly kickback (make fly) anything if it binds the blade, provided it's not conductive in which case it will stop the blade. two different problems and applications
Black and Decker Super Sawcat The first one I bought was in 1971. It cost a fortune. It cost 2 weeks of my gross wage. 8.25 " blade, and a power blade stop whenever the trigger was released. Blade stop time in milliseconds. The blade would ring it stopped so quickly. The reason I bought a saw with a power brake was,, the very first time I was hired as a carpenter was on a job site that I walked on looking for work,, it was in the afternoon. That job site had had a fatality that morning, Job sites are dangerous places. The carpenter, that morning was ripping the length of a 2X12, the wood grabbed the blade,, the saw kicked,, and the most common place for a saw to go on a kick back is a rotation ,, up,, out of the work, and the saw body continues the rotation up and over. The blade comes violently up and as it rolls over it climbs into your leg or belly. That was how I got my first job as a carpenter. The guy that started the day died as a result of the kickback. It was about two years later when I found a Black and Decker Super Sawcat in a tool store. I bought it. The line was discontinued in the early 1990's,, at that time I was on my third or fourth saw. I bought three from the wholesaler. The last of those died this past summer, 2018. For just shy of 50 years I have been using a saw with a power brake. Every time I lift my finger, the saw powers a brake to halt the blade. If you wish to improve upon that,, make certain that what you do is even better than that saw. I'll buy it.
As a joiner there are ways to help prevent kickback. Make sure the guard is properly fitted and works. When cutting sheets or timber cut in a way that prevents pinching. Maintain good control by using both hands. Do not cut awkwardly by over reaching. If that saw wants to kick it will but thinking about how to and using ways to help prevent it. But this is a really cool idea and I would definitely pay more for a tool with this tech in it.
You two are saving lives! Amazing work! Business pitch to a corp, the increase cost of to have the X of these tools balances Y hours of manhours where Z injuries occur. Hire the right people to fill in those variables and I can look forward to showing my future kids your videos their whole lives. Thanks for making science and engineering cool with your enthusiasm.
This is absolutely amazing, I love getting to see practical science alongside some of the other, more ethereal topics on your channel. This will save lives, congratulations. And your enthusiasm is infectious, it makes me want to share every single video.
Yes. They have the guard pulled back. Sometimes the guard can get caught or just be in the way of what ever your cutting. I’ve had times where I had to tie the guard back cause it was in the way. Defeats the purpose of the guard but what they made it’s more of a secondary safety device
Many people who use saws often will either have the guard taken off or the guards often have a portion that sticks out for you to push it out of the way with your finger and people will use that to hold it out of the way. If you're cutting a lot they get kind of annoying being in the way when you're trying to line up 100's of cuts.
The other comments make some good points.... another thing to consider is the cost of implementing a few sensors on a circuit board that's already inside of the tool and a small license fee compared to the extra parts associated with the spring loaded guard.
I'm a carpenter. when I first started using these i had tons of kickback problems from not knowing how to properly use them. The more and more you use them it becomes less of a problem. But this is definitely a GREAT idea I would definitely be getting one because accidents do happen experienced or not and why not prevent it?
I actually cut wood with circular saw today for the first time. And I had 3-4 kickback events. How do you cut "properly" to avoid it? I mean I was holding the saw with the dead grip, so nothing happened, but maybe there is better way of handling it.
The blade pulls the wood into the saw's metal base. If it were the other way the saw would cut by pushing the wood downward causing the saw to climb up normally. The problem is the wood coming back together at the back of the saw were the circular motion is reversed from the front of the cut. The solution should be to use a riving knife to prevent the cut wood gathering in the back of the saw.
Your objective....great. Your methodology.....awesome. Your results.......amazing. Using a computer to analyse what is happening and supply a solution.......brain turns to mush. Holding the saw and causing a kick back ON PURPOSE!.......maximus gonadical bravery! Seriously I will by the first saw to come out with this feature! Great video guys👍
Very cool. I was thinking it's just be simpler to go off the amperage when it spikes, but I guess this specific case demoed the amps wouldnt spike. I can see how this type of kickback can happen but I think it's very irregular because you're pulling the saw instead of pushing it. Which changes the direction of the blade from up pushing into the fence to down and pushing off the wood.
Why did you disable the blade guard? Saw comes out of the work and the guard covers the blade, simple, no electronics to fail. My saw had it from the factory.
I think it would be good to have both, because if the Electronics fail there is a guard to provide protection. and it the guard get jammed(More likely, a chunk of the wood could jam it) the electronics will more than likely stop it
Believe it or not, I witnessed it. Building a house, one of the elder guys had a skill saw without the blade cover (dangerous and stupid, I know), well - one day it wasn't done spinning down and he sat it on the floor and it took off and ran across his foot, almost severed his toe, so honestly, having the blade guard and this tech would be beneficial for those Darwin award winning people. .
I'm a carpenter with 13 years of strictly residential carpentry under my belt. I'm not trying to knock your test, but you're using fixed parameters. 1 hand pressure from holding the saw usually prevents major kickbacks 2 once it does kick back, the guard is activated once it kicks up above the cutting surface and that usually stops it from being chaotic 3 it seems like what you are implementing is a designated Killswitch. Not all saws, but many of them do you have kill switches as to where it seems optically similar to your technology, stops immediately. Also what kind of price difference would this be adding on to the overall cost of a circular saw and what would that price be compared to saws that already implement a built-in kill switch? I personally use Ridgid tools, I don't think they use kill switches, I feel like DeWalt might use them. I don't think most worm drives do, I might be wrong I usually only use those made by Skil. 4 so also if your saw going to detect additional stresses which would make it seem like it is in a kickback situation then it would shut off automatically as you want your technology to do. If I'm ripping a 2 x 4 down I will not tolerate a saw that keeps automatically shutting off on me when I'm trying to use it under normal working circumstances. So if you want to implement this technology you need to have an override shut-off mechanism on whoever's saw you decide to use this on. And it looks like you're using a DeWalt, so every time you pull your finger off the trigger it should be stopping automatically, meaning without continual rotation from the kill switch. Now I may be wrong, but I pulled a lot of triggers in my time.
Mike Emerick I was thinking about 1 and 4 this entire video. I don't have huge experience with a skill saw but everytime one has bound up on me I have had a firm grip on it and prevented the kickback. Also there would be nothing worse then having the saw die multiple times in the middle of a cut.
Exactly what I was thinking as well. Put a killswitch button or 2 on the flat surface of the guard so when the saw comes up just enough the button is no longer pressed causing the brake to be implemented.
I mean with the accessibility of DIY projects, a lot of people are using tools and are assuming the safety features are going to keep them safe. Might not be a bad thing. Also the only time I've had it kick back and actually be a bit scary was when not using proper positioning on the saw so I didn't have body weight behind it. Definitely my fault but it only takes once to hurt yourself.
@@zachicusmaximus5551 RIGHT! If I goof up it's not the saws fault. And you'll never make anything bulletproof enough so nobody CAN get hurt with it. Wackos are born all the time. A firm grip on a saw is the best safety device and being READY in case something happens. A chain saw is the same way. You snooze, you loose. Sometimes BIGtime.
we actually had kickback protection in our angle grinder and battery powered drills at work. they are made by bosh and it honestly work great. i can't count how many times a drill have gotten stuck with the pevious drill machine made by Dewalt and having in try to rip my hand off and this kick back may not be perfect and have triggered without a kick back have greatly reduced the number of times that it have happened and the few times that i have felt it have it greatly reduced the severity of the twist that the drill induced on my hand. same with angle grinders but even more important. i had an angle grinder get pinched and it turned out of my hand and cut my thumb. but thanks to this stop did it just cut a small hole in my glove and slightly scrape the top layer of skin and no blood was drawn. that in comparison with a different angle grinder in almost the exact same situation only that i was holding it with my left hand this time. it turned and cut a deep groove on the knuckle on my left indexfinger down to the bone. i was lucky that it didn't hit any critical area of my finger and only cut skin but there was a lot of blood this time.
I used to work in a prefab house construction facility and it was one of the most dangerous environments I had ever worked at. Injuries were so common. Safety features like saw blade guards were removed intentionally to deter theft. (It didn't work...) So being hyper aware was extremely important to self preservation. Not just of what you were doing, but of what others around you were doing. The safety feature on nail guns were removed as well, lots of errant nails flying through the air... I let my guard down "no pun intended" and my jacket got caught in the saw blade as it was decelerating and shredded deep into the material. Thankfully my finger was off the trigger already!
That is seriously huge violations to code I'm hearing. Report, report, and report. Do not ever, EVER let employers or companies get away with and do things like this. Someone can be very seriously hurt.
I get that people want to make things very complicated (like machine learning), but what we did is use a simple microswitch that sits on the side of the metal guard. if the saw lifts off, power to the saw is removed (like if we released the trigger). People are going to buy this simply because "machine learning" is involved, but really a simple switch would work. However, anything that increases safety can never be a bad thing.
Like a nail gun. If both switches aren't pressed. It doesn't work. You know. That's generally the best way to solve a problem. Just look for someone who already solved it.
@@invendelirium I see your point. Since this is computer based, I can really foresee someone not being able to use the tool that feeds their family because of a software malfunction. That would be awful.
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Hahaha, this seems so much simpler and likely more reliable. I'm sorry Destin. If that's not the case then I'd love to learn why.
@@seabass563 when i was my crew's safety chief, we tried to stay away from plunge cuts as much as possible (since the saw isn't stabilized). however, if we did need to do them (which happens, we all know), we just used a little magnet to pull the switch up from the other side. pre-shift equipment check found if people forgot to take off the magnet.
Did a roofing job recently and had the saw kick back on me while replacing a sheet of plywood. Here I am watching this video because of it! Thanks, Destin! I appreciate these videos!
Did you get hurt? Were you in CONTROL of the dangerous tool in your hand? Are you aware of how the kickback was caused? The easiest way to avoid ALL OF THIS is to respect the tools and the ability they have to mess you up!!! Know how to properly wield them, keep them as SHARP as possible at all times and keep them away from fools!!!! 28 years using table saws, planers, jointers, and all sorts of machines that will chew you and spit you out faster than a heartbeat and no crazy stuff has happened to me because I TAKE SAFETY VERY SERIOUSLY!!!!!! So much so that I take coworkers safety in consideration also. I have shown countless others what they WERE doing dangerously and now they don't anymore. Safety is easy. This video is so ridiculous it gave me a headache! Waste of time guys.
As a carpenter for 20+ yrs, i am curious, how much blade deflection , side to side , and vertically, does your chosen algorithm allow ? There are some cuts that are standard practice in which side to side , ie, saw travels in direction that the arbor is pointing, and vertical, short abrupt up and down motion to keep saw from binding while ripping through funky grain , especially on wet lumber. There are other work arounds but continuing a cut without having to stop, to insert wedge or eat up another person's time, is preferable.
You think saw kickback is bad? Just wait until the AI kicks back when it rises up against us and starts chasing us with the saws that we gave them control over.
@@jeffirwin7862 I like the Terminator movie too. Don't wait until they all become evel, just find someone of them that can be your friend and can protect you ;)
Jeff Irwin i need to start saving and repairing my dad and grandfathers old electric tools if i want power tools that dont kill me of their own free will i guess
@Lassi Kinnunen lazy programming basicaly. Let the ai figure it out, realease the software, iron out the problems as the complaints come in. Software is all the same nowadays, it's all in a beta state, never finished, always being changed and never quite works the way you want it.
Not really. Over engineered like crazy. This could easily be solved with just an accelerometer and 60 minutes of calibration to determine at what level of sudden motion it should turn off.
Even if you don't believe in the concept of this specific safety device you have to consider the implications of how they got their solution. They used AI learning to find a solution to a problem. The computer can analyze thousands of situations and react pretty immediately to a problem. Using this method could open a door to many other similar solutions to issues that may not even be related to the circular saw at all. To me, this video is about their solution to kickback as much as it is about using machine learning to solve real world problems.
Yeah, I agree. This is essentially an ultra refined clutch calibration that stops the motor instead of intentional slip. This would be a very nice feature in any high torque circumstance. My thoughts jump to a right angle drill.
@@roromad9603 They use what is nowadays colloquially called AI: a computer program that can make "smart independent decisions". How this particular AI is implemented is by doing machine learning: feed the program plenty of data, and let it learn by itself. Also, I do appreciate the efforts but whereas it may appear close to statistics, there is a slight difference. Here, they only care about prediction: they don't care to understand what constitutes a kickback event , they just care to detect when there is one. No statistical machinery is involved (no test, no inference, no nothing). At the end of the day they don't have a better understanding of kickbacks: the machine has just learned how to recognize one. Machine learning and statistics are not interchangeable words.
@@wiwh404 This is not artificial intelligence nor is it machine learning. There is NO WAY that I want a simple program predicting whether or not a kickback event is occurring. To do so would be to put people's lives in jeopardy. This is statistical modeling based on data. That is it. Sorry, but it is nothing more. People like to throw around "AI" and "Machine learning" to make it look like they are doing something more than what it really this. This is just statistical modeling. that is it. Now, this does not negate the fact that two really smart people are trying to figure out ways to make things safer using very cool methods. I appreciate and respect the effort.
Hey @SmarterEveryDay I'm a long time watcher (nearly a decade now!). Thank you for all these awesome videos and inspiring me to continue learning. I'm wanting to get into woodworking more, but the table saw (rightfully) scares the bajeebers out of me. I've looked at SawStop saws but can't afford something like that. Where is this technology that you've developed with Chad? Is anything in production or plans for production? Would love to see something like this in a table saw as it could save lots of fingers as kickback on a table saw can suck your hand into the blade in addition to kicking pieces of wood into your abdomen at mach 10,000 (yes I used my high-speed camera to measure and calculate that speed; no I didn't get hit in my abdomen to find out; yes only one of those sentences is true and I'll let you figure out which is which). In short - I would love to see this in a circular saw - or even better yet a table saw - I can buy. Help?
@@albertogomez6196 .....ummmmm...I literally know ZERO people that have taken the blade guard off. That includes about 15 contractors who use one professionally.
animalmother556x45 usually framers or a dedicated cut man will wedge the guard up. Sometimes thin or profile cuts can’t be done without the guard being manually held open. The angle of approach makes the guard push the saw over instead of opening the guard.
Man, this is so cool. My dad and I have woodworking tools in our garage, and I've worked on countless service project(and Eagle Projects) and this would be so freaking useful. Just knowing that there's a safety mechanism implemented digitally as well as mechanically already makes this 10 times more useful than one of those "smart fridges"
I landed my first carpentry job,,, because the guy before me died. Circular saw kickback that rotated up into his abdomen. I walked on site unaware asking for a job just over an hour later. Three years later a coworker was seriously injured when a saw kicked back across his thigh. I went out a few days later and purchased a Black and Decker Super Sawcat, 8.25", with a dynamic brake. It was 10 times the cost of other saws at the time. I used, exclusively Black and Decker Super Sawcats for the next 40 years. My last one died last year. I now use a Makita with no brake, Basically,, I hate it. It was designed by a college educated engineer who had never,,, never used it on a job site. A beautiful, powerful tool, that requires three hands for safe operation. I, of course, do not have three hands so there are distinct compromises to safe operation on a daily basis. The dynamic blade stop is the first and most important safety feature. The second is never,,, I emphasize that word,, never ,, be behind the saw during cutting,, always at right angles to the cut line. Always,, the cord must be on the clear side of your body. Many injuries have occurred because the cord guided the saw around a person and then across some body part. And your basic suppositions of speed and power of the kickback are absolutely correct. No human can sense and respond to a full kickback faster than the saw can injure you.. For nearly all saws,, keep saw and cord out to your right, (there are a few left hand saws) , never cut something that is supported or fastened on both ends (the waste piece must be allowed to fall away), always grip your saw as though your life depends up[on it. It does.
Awesome test and solution ! It actually happened to me some years ago hopefully I had my two hands firmly holding on to the machine so I managed to control the kickback but I have to admit I really got scared with that and still precisely remember it as I thought I got pretty close from serious accident. At least there should be a disclaimer these type of tools
So just using a accelerometer circuit, a comparator chip, a transistor and a solid state relay is basically all you would need for this. Pretty amazing idea.
this implementation requires learning algorithms, but if you can extract the "profile" of the kickback from the data, then yes you would only need that, for now it requires a computer though.
In the video description it mentions that it's storing the last 250ms of data to look for patterns and avoid false alarms. Your setup would work, but it may set off any time you jiggled it too hard.
Can you make one for a table saw? I imagine would use an optical sensor as the trigger. I cut burnt hardwood trees into small planks to use as stock for woodworking projects, and because I never have a flat surface to start out with, I'm at a high risk of kickback. Even though I stand off to the side, I recently had a piece kickback into palm of my hand cutting a flap of skin loose. Thanks for so many awesome videos.
@@teuton8363 Good idea. How often did it activate accidentally? There was a change in patent law a couple of years ago in response to some highly publicized patent troll cases. It is now much cheaper and easier to get a provisional patent. Like $100. You can get people to draw your claim cheap on the internets and file, then shop it around. Or just sell the conversion kit on your facebook page.
I know this comment will get lost in the sea of comments but I am still typing it out. I just wanted to say that your channel was the first one I subscribed to on youtube,and except for that time you asked us to unsubscribe and resubscribe I have been a loyal subscriber. Not just for the cool slow mo stuff,or the cool experiments you do.But mostly because you are passionate about science. Don't get me wrong I like science as well,but I don't have that passion you have,and having someone that wants to shear rather then just reading from a text book or holding a speech makes it a lot easier for me to get some science into my life. Thank you for keeping your content coming and keep up the good work.
This is a fantastic application for machine learning, and effective leveraging of the commodity sensors now common in game controls and cell phones. I've actually been waiting for someone to do something like this, it should definitely be a default feature on consumer & light industrial powered hand tools. Even drills over a certain torque & power, as they can break your arm before you can let go when a bit locks up in what your drilling. Personally, I'd need the ability to switch it off when I'm "improperly using my saw".. I mean.. carving artwork. Much that same way I have some older non-computerized welders I can "use improperly" for the effect produced. But, ripping a sheet of plywood with a circular saw.. I'm all over this being in my saws! Of course ANY technology is always a double edge sword, and new failure modes get introduced, thus I'm put in mind of an Agatha Christie esque murder plot with tampered AI power tool safety systems... intentionally inducing a fatal kickback event. IRL, Might need a security diagnostic against a set of fixed hashed values. A safety system for the safety system. Much like we now have RCD/GFCI technology as a sort of intelligence safty check to keep people from dying while making toast in the bathtub.
I find pulsing the trigger through tricky cuts helps. Essentially the cut occurs only during deceleration of the blade. This sensor technology though would make kickbacks less puckery!
@@Mister_Pines yep, what they said ...cut off disk. my terminology is old school. I believe that's what they were first called when they introduced them for angle grinders. Someone else here mentioned concrete saws. I concur. Those concrete saws can kick back like a bugger as well
As someone who knows a guy who nearly got disemboweled by a saw kicking back, this is indeed something that needs to be added to more machines. Table saws, certain types of band saws, and even a few radial arms have things like this already, so why not the ones that can potentially do more than just cut a finger off at worst?
Saws are dangerous in general and even with experience things can happen that are bad and usually it comes from fatigue while using the items. Where your brain power is running out and those things you normally feel or listen for are delayed because of fatigue and this is where these things can help.
@@sarinhighwind fatigue plays a big role but in my experience the biggest contributor in woodworking tool accidents today is intentionally disabling safety features and ignoring safety guidelines. E.g. removing safety covers, splitting wedges, taping on safety switches. In other words being stupid in the first place. Thunder Winkle : plunge saws & track saws are not really more safe than a circular saw with a spring cover. While any such mechanism is great and reduces severity of injury the best safety feature to prevent pinching and thereby kickback is, again the wedge.
Should be able to use the same approach with table saws and use a current transducer on one of the motor leads to track motor load. I thought it was overkill to use ML, but after watching, it was definitely a good and smart application of the tech. Bravo!
I'm actually a professional carpenter, and I must say this is interesting. I'd like to see the saw in actual use though. In the case of someone like me, I'd say this is rather useless, because if you know how to use the saw properly, kickback is a non issue, and false events would become a major annoyance. How often would you say the algorithm produces a false positive? Is this from ammature use? or professional use? All that being said I do think this invention would be very valuable to inexperienced users. I can't tell you how many people I've had working under me that I've seen cause kickback in their saws and not even understand why it is acting the way it is.
I disagree. Hobby carpenters don’t have the right experience or training, and pros do so much cutting that they are continually exposed to this risk. I’m on board with safer stuff even when it costs more and weighs more. Whenever I occasionally hire a pro carpenter, they cut more wood in a couple days than I will in my entire life. Multiply this by all the jobs they do and even for knowledgeable guys the risk is pretty elevated.
I agree with Dylan, its very cool, but false positives are going to be more of an annoyance for professionals verses amateurs. And I'm not a professional, but I was raised by a Journeyman Carpenter and in my 30 years of hobby woodworking and construction I've never had a kickback with Skilsaw I didn't expect. Support your wood properly and have someone holding it to keep from pinching and it just doesn't happen, except for those times when its a small cut that can't be supported or held. Then you know it might happen and you stand appropriately just in case.
@@aspecreviews Yeah and not all the saws have those sensors built in. But that was only part of my question. Because how many saws had these modifications done to them and how many people helped him get all the data.
Developing another safety feature like this is a great idea! I must say though, If you can't hold a saw strongly enough or control the saw under kickback conditions, then you shouldn't be using a circular saw.
Yeah exactly. Circular saw kickback is nothing like kickback with a chainsaw haha. That's probably why the manufacturers don't have kickback braking systems on them.
Also, #gonadularregion is safe!
Ladies and gentlemen... this is Chad that made the device. You can ask him super technical questions if you like about what he and I are trying to do with www.lantern.systems , but I mostly think you should make fun of him for not wearing safety glasses while testing a safety product.
What part of the wood would cause a kickback? If its the backside why not use a small piece of metal to act as a small wedge to prevent that in the first place?
@@Ramzeke You're right, it's always the back edge of the blade. That's where the blade starts digging in and lifting the saw off the table. And yes, there are passive solutions, like you say, like a riving knife. This doesn't replace those. Why not use both? Once you see it work, it just kind of seems dumb that it's not already there.
@@chadgreen376 of course! I never meant to make it seem what you have done so far to be stupid, its pure genius and I applaud you for your efforts so far!
This type of kick back prevention has been used in some hand drills. Older ones use only torque spikes to detect drill jams, but new ones have also acceleration sensor. Bosch DDH181X is one example.
This could have prevented my accident, when I was 10 years old I was using my dad's power saw, the same incident happened to me when the saw hit a knot in a 2x6, the saw kicked back and landed in my right thigh ripping into my quadriceps muscles and caused me to have emergency surgery to reconstruct the damage. I was crippled for nearly a year and a half and still took a few more years to finally get back to 100% use.
I am now 63 years old and the scar on my right thigh is a reminder of a horrific day, my dad discovered me laying on the floor in a puddle of blood, dad removed his belt, I thought I was going to get a spanking for doing something bad but dad took the belt and tide it around my leg at the top of my thigh and laid me in the back seat of the car on my older brothers lap as he rushed me to the hospital, I passed out from the loss of blood during the fast drive to the hospital.
My brother had told the story how dad grasped me from his lap and ran into the hospital with me dangling in his arms like a rag doll screaming at the staff that his blood type was the same as mine, I remember waking up and my dad was lying next to me, he had a tube running from is arm that was taking his blood and they was transferring it to both of my arms.
Your design is needed even if it prevents just one injury. I hope my story will fuel your work and help convince manufacturers of the need for your design.
Eric, Kennedale, TX
10 years old and saws don't mix but I used to use saws like these, lathes and other dangerous machines when I was young like from 8 to 15 years because my uncle had them and we made stuff but I lucky never got cut
Thank you for your story, it deserves more likes. You are completely right about preventing just one more accident, this invention could be the difference between life and death for another family out there right now. Imagine if your father had not found you in time.
Wow what an amazing story I teared up from your family dynamic, I'm so glad for you that you healed
And that your dad was there to see you in time
There's alot that can be improved with tools
I mean, I think DeWalt or one of the big names has a table saw that senses human skin, and stops injury
But unlike other table saws like that, which shove a piece of steel into the blade, wrecking it; this one drops the blade to below the table
But anyways my grandfather got injured by a planer. After he had used it, and it was spooling down (this was when my dad was in middle school, and Gramps never really had alot of common sense according to dad) he decided he wanted to clean it.
So he reached his hand into the machine, with the rotors/cylinders/whatever still spooling down (it was turned off, but they take a while to stop). All 4 of his fingers on that hand were TORN off. Not cut off, TORN. And the fingers were also shredded in the machine as well.
From then until the day he died, his right hand was a palm, a thumb, and 4 stubs where his fingers used to be
The positive thing about a kickback is there is involuntary laminar flow in my pants. Any laminar flow is good.
Ryan "smooth urethra" A
As a fireman that cuts holes in roofs, my concern is kickback occurring after hitting a nail. Can't wait for the chainsaw video.
David Lara That’s is one of my biggest fears, the chainsaw kicking back while up on a roof.
Nails don't cause kickback, a limp wrist does. The carbide teeth cut right through.
After chopping tons of pallets up i can confirm that nails are no problem, also dont over tighten the blade and dont have limp wrists
@@jacobengland1350 Unless of course the blade is dull, then you aren't really cutting anything. You're smokin and jokin. lol
This concept adapted to chainsaws would be a lot less terrifying than saw-stopping pants
Everyone: "Cutting plywood isn't rocket science."
Destin: "It is now"
It isn't if you aren't limp gripping the thing.
machinery and computer engineering design is still not rocket science. Just because you don't have the expertise to understand something, that doesn't make it rocket science. What this channel does is mostly just basic slow mo capture and basic elementary science that even layman can understand. Real rocket science would make for a boring TH-cam video because very few people have the mathematics or engineering degrees required to understand it.
That test rig makes my gonadular region feel uncomfortable
Ha. Your channel is awesome by the way. I've been following for several months now. Great content.
That would be which region specifically, in non-scientific terms?
tHANKS FOR THE SATIRE!
hahahah I see what you did there
So, balls?
Dude, I really like my fingers and my gonadular region. This is a game changer. I want that
Love ya Bobby! Any more collabs with Destin?
I know a few people that like your gonadular region.
@Daniel Matias For when he's cutting the wewd! :D
Gotta protect your gonadular region when cutting that wewd.
Bobby!!!!
"Chad is really good at software"
What a cha-
As an operating room nurse in a trauma center, I have been in countless cases where kick back injuries have occurred. Table saws make up the majority of the injuries I see compared to other tools, but I fully support and appreciate your efforts to make all saws safer. Thank you for your work and your awesome videos.
Now license the thing, but keep your license fees low enough so tool manufacturers actually want to implement it. The guy who has the patent on the table saw stop wants way too much hence why it's not in any table saws.
Yup, and he’ll watch his boutique saw brand evaporate once those patents expire out from under him.
Guy who invented the seatbelt made the patent free hence all cars implemented it in jut a few years.
@@s3cr3tpassword It was military testing for airplane harnesses that lead to the motor vehicle seat belts.
Couldn't the same information be "learned" for a table saw too.
@@brandoncumbie6866 With a hand saw the wood (object being cut) is stationary and the saw moves through it. With a table saw, the saw is stationary while the wood moves. This tech works by measuring variations in the movement of the saw. When a table saw kicks back it throws the wood, not the saw.
The saw-stop (aka the 'hot-dog saw') doesn't care about kick backs, it measures conductivity (or so I've been told) to know when it hits something that should not be there. This kick-back killer would happily allow you to dice up a whole box of kittens as long as you didn't bind the blade.
The red splatter on the ceiling of your black lined saw testing room is a bit unsettling ( 8:00 )
Ah, this? It's unrelated to this project, don't worry.
That must have the initial inspiration..
For all we know he splattered in the green afterwards as a cover story, because it's easier than cleaning it up.
Someone's got to be a test subject for science to be proven.
That splatter on the ceiling is what happens when your machine learning does not want to learn.
This should become standard in all saws that can kick back.
Absolutely!!
Totally agree. I'd love to see this on a miter saw as well.
All you need is a small riving knife on the saw to keep from pinching the blade, or just pull the wood apart.
No carpenter would ever use this
@@johnstonhunter6128 Yeah, just like SawStop table saws. I mean, who wants a safer power saw?
Very cool fellas! Smarter not dead!
Why aren’t you guys verified
1:31 You see the typical use of safe glasses. ;-)
My eye was saved or at the very least didnt require suturing cuz i was wearing my prescription glasses which deflected a tiny glass shard. So if youre doing any work that has a chance of things flying, wear some kind of protection.
@@sarinhighwind Tooooday! Teardown of eyes to remove splintermathing.
He does not say eyes.
Winky face, because someone lost an eye?
What if we put machine learning into the safety glasses so that they whip down to cover your eyes when there's danger incoming? Feel free to develop and patent that idea too, Destin. You get that one for free.
@@PerMortensen Lasers that point constantly into your eyes and trigger when the beam has been cut. Oh wait.
7:59 Top left corner... that's from the "less successful" attempts ;P
genius
ewwww... **lol**
@@Lia-A-Eastwood :D
I wondered why I had not seen his son helping of late (should I saw giving him a hand)
No, that's from the Slow Mo Guys.
Yes, definitely this should be on EACH and EVERY hand-operated saw. Very much appreciate it, a total sense of safety needed on certain power tools.
When I first saw this video I'm like naw this will never happen to me here I am 10 months later I have 16 stitches in my leg lol
For anyone starting to work with these tools be careful
We had a guy called knee bone on our framing crew, can you guess what he did? Unfortunately this device really does nothing.
hold it harder, its soooo easy XD
Any rotate tool its not a joke! People always forget that!
One very important rule to save lives on a circle saw table is this. Adjust the saw blade to the height you want to saw. Drop that blade into the table, as far as possible.
If you get an accident, you may cut off a finger, but not an arm. When the blade is too high, you can do far more damage. Most people do not know this, and take a huge risk, each time they saw only small stuff, because the blade is set up to kill them. One mistake and it could be game over!
That is another type of saw, but I think it is worth warning you all, who have no idea and still use such a saw. You need proper schooling before you even look at such devices.
You're a dumbass.
Pretty bold move to actually test it yourself after seeing the saw fly so many times :D
I bet he watched it stop automatically a few dozen times before trying it himself!
Here’s your next Beyond the Press video though. Or Kickback, can we crush it?
Hello, Lauri and Anni! Please don't be as stupidly unsafe as these guys were.
He didn't though. He couldn't even make a proper cut as he first described he would. He just showed it shutting off in he's hands.
Where's the complete cut??
I bet you can't even push it forward without it having to cut out on you.
When you hold the saw the right way it wont kickback as much like that, plus you will ear the saw changing sound right before it kick. Most people injured by circular saw was using/holding it wrong.
A very useful invention! Great work.
I love how he's only favouring the comments that praise this idea instead of the well thought out critical ones that are polite and concise. Just lost some respect for SED.
Hey Dustin, big fan of your videos. As I am picking up woodworking I would love to see this in every circular saw. Just curious, any updates on the implementation in saws out in the market?
While I watch you channel pretty often, I've discovered this gem just now.
That is really awesome, and I wish manufacturers will be interedted in this.
There's still a lot of work to do to turn this system (with a very sensible captor) into something robust enough to last on jobsites.
Cheers from France and thank you for such a usefull research.
Just out of curiosity why is the blade gaurd disengaged? I worked carpentry for a while and as long as you are paying attention and using the saw properly (both hands!) kickback can't over power you (you would have to be very very weak).
Also the blade gaurd should stop the blade from biting into anything if it were to kick!
I understand what you are saying, but legit question: how fast is that mechanical blade guard? Is it slower than this product? I bet it is. Note that other commenters have mentioned people who have lost fingers or worse. You would think that at least some of the victims had their guards engaged, but yet ...
Thank you! A classic example of people OVER ENGINEERING something which has seemed to work fine without 500 sensors for many decades.
I concur!
They probably tied it up so it wouldn't get in the way of testing a worst-case scenario; working in construction and remodeling, we have had a few dropped saws end up with damage that causes the blade guard to jam open. None of those are in everyday use though, thankfully.
But yes, proper attention and a solid grip practically eliminates the risk of kickback.
In my experience, in non-user-error-related scenarios like cutting stringers out of cupped 2x12s and ripping boards with self-contained conflicting crowns, the motor always gets overpowered first.
As a carpenter for 9000000 years (3 years) I've seen a man have a saw go straight in his thigh from Kick Back. It was the scariest thing to ever happen in my life so far.
If only destin corp could have fixed this
i love your optimism
Was he using the tool correctly? Like two hands or single-handed 2x4 cutting over your foot?
Id love to see that Feature on a sawzall cause you get kickbacks with those all the time when you have to cut out old windows. Also you often have to use it without the guard to get it in properly.
If you use both hands while sawing and kick backs appears you must be really weak if you can't handle it.
Never ever- EVER -support the work on the cutoff side of the saw. That’s sawing 101!!!!
Always secure the work under the motor (heavy) side of the blade and allow the cutoff to drop away from the blade. For sheets and awkward pieces support both sides nearly equally under the work to avoid blade pinch. I use stringers across under the work for sheetgoods and barely score them as I make my cut. Chipping is reduced as well.
It’s important to always set the blade to the proper depth. Just deep enough to clear the underside a bit. That way the cutting action is nearly horizontal and teeth clear the chips vertically. Then the cutoff drops away and down. If a circular blade is set too deep it will make a nearly vertical full thinkness cut forcing the material to twist and buck the blade.
I was surprised. These guys usually do better
So true. Barely more than the thickness n the very first thing my dad taught me I using a C-Saw.
coldrunner we’ve created the solution for a problem we’ve created where we’ve removed all safety features and have forced the tool into an unsafe operating environment.
Most of this type saws I saw (pun intended) have a simple shield on a spring that closes as soon as the blade gets off the cut surface.
Doesnt cover the whole plade
The one I have does cover the whole blade when it's not engaged.
Beezqp it can never close fast enough. The front of the saw will cut you before the shield swings around from the back to close.
Actually, the blade cover closes from the direction that you are standing in first. Otherwise, you'd need to manually open the cover before each cut. This means that when kickback occurs, the blade guard will immediately cover the most dangerous region.
The guard does not spring back fast enough I have cut a chest guard off a harness I was wearing with kick back you obviously do not use a worm drive often
Please tell me that that isn't blood splatter on the ceiling at 4:04 lol
They said they needed kickback data ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They start testing in human and then realize it’s too danger.
That's called learning curve. They learned that they need chain to secure it there.
Is that from the slow mo guys 'exploding paint' video?
I think that indeed is....looks about right.
"Gonadular region" is now part of my vernacular. But more importantly, this may save countless Gonadular regions from unexpected saw-based intrusion...
I'm curious to see what the firmware looks like as well as their framework that compares that analyzes incoming the incoming data. Guess I'll just have to wait for the next video.
...’saw-based intrusion” -- nice!
@@johnrazor8720 the only thing worse than saw-based intrusion is unexpected saw-based intrusion!
Couldn't you have also installed a safety button at the base of the saw that when set of the wood, would allow the blade to spin, and when released would trigger the braking system. Maybe the placement of said safety would be a problem, but otherwise I feel this would work.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
It will heretofore be in mine as well...
This is really cool. We had sawstops for our table saws a while back when i went to highschool and i personally watched that system save fingers. But we also had some really close calls with the hand saws. Stuff like this is really important for not so attentive highschoolers who are getting into woodworking.
Hey Destin,
it´s lowtec but a riving knive also helps a lot :-)
Are there riving knives for circular saws!? I've only seen them on table saws
@@Ksweetpea they are used where ever a blade can be pressed from cutted material
But would that prevent the kickback here? Because he ran into a knot? (and yes, never seen one for this type of saw). Plus, did they do anything (else) wrong, using this saw?
Makita makes a saw with a riving knife...seems the simple way to go...
Also a small wedge is used at the end of the cut if you feel the saw is getting sticky..
"we're cutting plywood here"
I laughed hard!
I liked the "High Five instead of High Four"... too funny.
What's funny is they're not cutting plywood, they're cutting a 2x6
@@barneyrubble4293 almost as funny as you mixing up a 2x6 and 2x8
@@guyod1 and to top it all off we have you confusing 2x10 and 2x8.
Me too :D
Destin, watching your enuthsiasm and excitement when it comes to science and engineering makes me WANT to learn physics. I just wish i had the mental aptitude to learn it quickly.
So glad I stayed up till 2am watching TH-cam videos. You guys rock. I hope a manufacturer like Dewalt or Milwaukee pick up your invention. Good luck!
Using sophisticated machine learning algorithms to eliminate the kickback from circular saws
_Smithing 100_
lol
r/woosh
SMART IDEA, STUPID WAY TO ACCOMPLISH IT! What would be wrong with attaching a limit switch to the plate that would activate the brake?
When you start a cut you rest the front of the PLATE on your work. During a kickback event the PLATE rises off the work. Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just not allow the saw to power up if you don't start the cut with the PLATE on your work and to brake the saw the moment it comes off the work?
My idea is a lot cheaper therefore more likely to be implemented. Unfortunately I don't have the time and money to invest in it like those guys do.
Question is: Are they to proud to drop this finished complicated idea and persue a simpler cheaper idea?
A quote from another comment: "A contact switch wouldn't work. Vibration would set them off. Different orientations of the saw would become problematic. How would you start the cut when half the saw is not in contact. They would wear out and be prone to damage, and the hardware would cost more than this sensor based solution.
This really is a good solution. I have never had one kick back, and never stand behind the saw, so may not be needed, but for the $2-3US it would cost, I would buy the saw with it vs the one without all things equal.
It would be really good for chainsaws, and probably a few dozen other tools. I wouldn't mind having it added to the more powerful drills, so that when the bit grabs it doesn't twist your arm off. Drill press, detect if the work starts spinning (bit different sensor problem). With the right sensors you might even be able to detect and stop table saw kickback." - Court
He makes a very good point at the end of his comment. This technology isn't just for this kind of saw. It could apply to *all* powered saws, nay, all power tools in general.
@billy vandory Well that's a very big assumption to make. He's just developed the software to stop power tools when specific criteria are met. He hasn't forced any companies to do anything.
It's not over-engineered; it's a safety mechanism that's surprisingly cheap, effective, easy to implement and resistant to failure.
Also, nothing in the final product uses AI of any sort. They used machine learning to teach it what sensor input should trigger the stop and that's all.
Hear me out, because I see another application... I have cut miles and miles of lumber with a circular saw, and never had a kickback. Not to say that I am that good, but to say that a circular saw is reasonably easy to handle when the blade binds. Having said that, I still think it is a marketable feature - especially to high school wood shops.
I think a better place is in a big router. Have you ever used a hand held router with a one inch wide bit? Those bigger bits can cause some nasty kickback, and a high rpm bit pulling in a shirt would be terrifying, and a nasty injury!
Maybe this is just me, but I would pay extra to have that in a router, but would skip the circular saw.
Jason Sanders That's actually a good idea. Routers are the worst with kickbacks. Make you break into a cold sweat when it happens just picturing that bit getting caught in my shirt and chewing my stomach up. I work every day in construction and have for years and have never had a problem with circular saw kickbacks. Routers and table saws get my full attention though, like I'm milking poisonous snakes or something.
Good idear .those bloody routers don't write you a letter. 🤣😂😁😀😎
This is such an amazing use of machine learning!
I myself would definitely pay more to have this in my circular saw :-)
Brilliant!!! No brainer in my eyes. I seen so many times building homes with saws getting caked up with sawdust on a wet day and that Guard not coming back down when it should and run across a brand new pair of boots. Things happy quick when they go wrong
I'm a carpenter and I have a scar on by leg from a kick back.Also work with a carpenter that a bad scar on his forehead cutting above.Wished this was out in the Seventies.
your mate cutting above his face with a circular saw deserves the scar on his forehead for being such an absolute dunce.
Ainsley, you’re showing how green you are that you’ve never done any amount of framing in your life. Every carpenter does it from time to time
@@gregorymosher5008 I'm 65 and I'm still working.I was a kid.When it happens it's fast.
@@ainsleywainsley One of the best framer I know.Last person you thank would get hurt
@@gregorymosher5008 Thanks for sticking up for me.We all can be humbled..
There's also supposed to be a spring loaded gaurd to cover the blade when its removed from what youre cutting.
That's what I was wondering, pretty sure they made that for this purpose and when you you accidentally press the trigger when not I position. They should of recorded a slow motion of how fast the cover responds to a kick back.
While the guard should be enabled there are times during kickback that the spring is way to slow to return the guard to rest position (have run into the issue although never with an injury). Secondly this idea would help protect the user in the case that you have to disable or manually hold the guard open (which happens quit a bit in construction.)
@@Vlad599x Good to see I'm not the only one wondering about that!
@@Shakrii Lets find out and slow mo capture kickback with the guard still on the saw.
The blade guard can only close when it's completely out of the wood. This system stops it much faster. If there is less chance of it even getting out of the wood. Than the chance of it hitting you is also smaller
Grandpa taught me to tie back all the saw guards with a piece of bailing wire. 😅 Body positioning goes a long way. Standing off to the side and keeping an eye on your cords is important.
This is a cool project and as long as there was an option to disarm the kickback safety I wouldn't mind having a little intelligence in my tools. If it wasn't able to be bypassed I'd avoid products with it however.
This is definitely necessary on saws. One safety measure is never enough especially with something that happens in a 10th of a second
8:00 looks like there's blood all over the ceiling lol
I'm betting by what looks like balloon fragments, he tested how much dmg a paint filled water balloon takes when hit by kick back, and by a saw that has its motor seized but guard still open to help prove a point.
@Josh Doe
Well, I guess they had to work out some kinks until it worked properly, so... :-)
I wear a full metal mesh shark suit when -my wife's mad- I use a circular saw.
R6-D2....I wouldn't laugh to quickly - that is probably on the OSHA planning table as we speak!
Lol I believe you
truer word were never struck through
Comment of the month!
it also protects from electrocution Read:faraday suit
This video really gripped me and hope this is applied to every saw in the future. My father lost his thumb and half his hand due to kick back at 60 years of age(been a carpenter all his life) seeing what hes been through really makes me hope nobody ever has to suffer from any injury from circular saws again! Keep up the good work hope this is mandatory for saws very soon!! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Hey SmarterEveryDay I would also love to see this on a drill. When you got big drills like my rigid 24v hammer drill that has a double handle. There has been times that it caught and about broke my wrist.
Dewalt has it on their flexvolt drill
I made the same comment then searched the comments to see if any one else saw a better use for this. You did.
That exists on every single quality power drill. However on some cheap ones...
Correct me if I am overlooking something here. But. Most saws of this type, as far as I've seen has a spring loaded blade shield. If the saw leaves the surface, it snaps shut. You could even add redundancy by adding a wheel actuated kill switch. Both seem more robust and cheaper to add than the accelerometer thingy.. :/
That, and my $25 black and decker saw has a better brake than the one they demonstrated with. Good for them, but circular saw kickback (even with more powerful saws) is not nearly as big a problem as they are suggesting. Using a circular saw like a table saw is not a good idea, even if you have a smart tool like they made.
A lot of people jam the guards open or remove them entirely because of the inconvenience of them getting in the way, this is a solution for those people.
@@ShaunDreclin You can't fix stupid with technology
@@lux_incola4224 Thus the stupid people are not culled from the herd as they should be and the human race gets dumber and dumber because they are left to breed.
And a saw blade to the gonadular region will stop the reproducing
I'm a high school senior and I'm going to be a carpenter. Half of my day is in the shop at my votech school and we have a sawstop table saw. We also have circular saws that we use every single day, if you didn't hear a blade squeel that day people were probably not using circular saws that day. So for you to basically to invent anti kickback for circular saws it makes me very excited. So we don't get turned from a rooster to a hen.
You too I'm a senior in high school part time at a votech doing carpentry
jowe
OurRandomWaysVideos you know all those grown adults who you admired enough to learn the trade? They didn’t need training wheels.
@@brotherspartan They often couldn't count to ten without taking off their boots, either. :(
@@brotherspartan it's not training wheels, its safety.
Very well made and well designed, I hope companies implement this type of safety equipment in all new models soon! Thanks.👍👏👏👏
This idea, is right up there with the table saw sensor that stops when it contacts a finger, or some such. Good luck with your patenting. Keep up the good work.
2:35 - "It's headed up to your gonadular region." LMFAO
It’s not really that funny
This happened to me a few years ago and I permanently lost a third of one of my toes and almost lost two of the others
Power tools are no joke,almost broke my leg with a half inch drill when I was 13 and being reckless.
@@bloodlove93 I ripped the whole fingerprint off my left thumb with a drill, came way to close losing a very important finger.
@@phatshet5479 Like a hot knife through butter. Take a look at that slow-mo of it barely grazing the wood with just it's own weight again - 2:45
Now imagine instead of a hard piece of wood being there, it's a piece of soft cloth/leather that sucks the blade in as it snags up.
@Blind Bob leather doesnt hold up either. Your best bet is just knowing what you're working with and paying attention
You just made me want to only use a circular saw with chain mail on and chain mail gloves...!
8:47 Assassination Classroom's plot badly summarised
Depending on how fast you are stoping the blade this might be great for table saws. The Saw Stop table saw is amazing but it damages the stop and blade when it is triggered. It would be awesome to use magnets to stop the blade and be able to keep working!
cool, when can we buy it?
Hopefully from major manufacturers when they’ve struck a deal.
Never - because patents
@@geulach The purpose of this video is to bring attention to the development of safety measures and the dude developing it have the patent for it and now he can license it to multiple companies for their tools.
Being a general contractor, I've felt my heart stop a few times while using saws! Saws (including table saws and reciprocating saws) are very dangerous -- even when used correctly.
I use DeWALT, and my business partner uses Milwaukee, and we would both like this technology in our saws! All of our saws. I named those brands specifically so this comment may show up on their radars!
Now, if only these guys could come up with a hammer that doesn't hurt when you hit your finger! Fortunately, that's rare for me nowadays.
Yes please, hammers with electric brakes!
DeWalt is only a trade name tho...
If you’re still hurting your fingers, while hammering. Idk what to tell you bro. Find another trade.
@@donmamon9263 there are 2 kinds of carpenters, those that admit they still make mistakes and damned liars.
This will likely be something you'll see available as a 3rd party device that can be added to any saw. Because lawyers. If a manufacturer adds this feature and it fails to stop a kickback that results in injury, the tool manufacturer is liable. It's the primary reason you don't see safety features added unless there is some related safety mandate passed down by the gov.
I had a kick back event once building my house. The blade guard is good but what happens is you tend to keep a downward force on the saw after it lifts out of the cut channel. There is enough force downward to keep the blade in contact with the surface preventing the guard from wrapping between the blade and surface. The saw put some nice gouges in the floor but fortunately I had good position so it was no where near any part of me. When I start to get lazy, I just have to remember that heart stopping moment of run-away saw! Only use sharp blades and think about positioning of the piece you are cutting and your position.
"We're cutting ply wood here"! LMAO dude 🤣
Excellent work. As a person that builds I have an apprehension with the more powerful tools at times. Once it kicks once I get paranoid.
This essentially turns circular saws into a full SawStop machine. This is incredible and must have for all us makers.
@@TheAlphapuck5280 No, it stops kickbacks, it will hapilly saw through any meat you feed it, provided you don't make it kickback. Whereas a sawstop will happilly kickback (make fly) anything if it binds the blade, provided it's not conductive in which case it will stop the blade. two different problems and applications
Ju lo
Agree this would be a great feature for a demo saw
Or you could hold onto your saw
Black and Decker Super Sawcat The first one I bought was in 1971. It cost a fortune. It cost 2 weeks of my gross wage. 8.25 " blade, and a power blade stop whenever the trigger was released. Blade stop time in milliseconds. The blade would ring it stopped so quickly.
The reason I bought a saw with a power brake was,, the very first time I was hired as a carpenter was on a job site that I walked on looking for work,, it was in the afternoon. That job site had had a fatality that morning, Job sites are dangerous places. The carpenter, that morning was ripping the length of a 2X12, the wood grabbed the blade,, the saw kicked,, and the most common place for a saw to go on a kick back is a rotation ,, up,, out of the work, and the saw body continues the rotation up and over. The blade comes violently up and as it rolls over it climbs into your leg or belly. That was how I got my first job as a carpenter. The guy that started the day died as a result of the kickback. It was about two years later when I found a Black and Decker Super Sawcat in a tool store. I bought it. The line was discontinued in the early 1990's,, at that time I was on my third or fourth saw. I bought three from the wholesaler. The last of those died this past summer, 2018.
For just shy of 50 years I have been using a saw with a power brake. Every time I lift my finger, the saw powers a brake to halt the blade. If you wish to improve upon that,, make certain that what you do is even better than that saw. I'll buy it.
As a joiner there are ways to help prevent kickback.
Make sure the guard is properly fitted and works.
When cutting sheets or timber cut in a way that prevents pinching.
Maintain good control by using both hands.
Do not cut awkwardly by over reaching.
If that saw wants to kick it will but thinking about how to and using ways to help prevent it. But this is a really cool idea and I would definitely pay more for a tool with this tech in it.
You two are saving lives! Amazing work! Business pitch to a corp, the increase cost of to have the X of these tools balances Y hours of manhours where Z injuries occur. Hire the right people to fill in those variables and I can look forward to showing my future kids your videos their whole lives. Thanks for making science and engineering cool with your enthusiasm.
This is absolutely amazing, I love getting to see practical science alongside some of the other, more ethereal topics on your channel. This will save lives, congratulations. And your enthusiasm is infectious, it makes me want to share every single video.
"gonadular region" ha
It's science.
That needs to be on a t-shirt.
Best word ever!
@@smartereveryday always great to learn new scientific vocabulary :)
Nikhil Menda
Products like this make people who use power tools less skilled. Kickback comes from user error.
I'd rather have user error lead to the saw shutting down than have it cut up the user.
This could easily be retrofitted on old saws too. It would just need a module that clips/straps on to the old saw somewhere.
Awesome work, keep it up!
Normally skill saws have a spring loaded guard that covers the blade if it is lifted of the work piece.
Yes. They have the guard pulled back. Sometimes the guard can get caught or just be in the way of what ever your cutting. I’ve had times where I had to tie the guard back cause it was in the way. Defeats the purpose of the guard but what they made it’s more of a secondary safety device
@@Mom90198 Sometimes you cut the power cord also. The sometimes list go on adnausium
Many people who use saws often will either have the guard taken off or the guards often have a portion that sticks out for you to push it out of the way with your finger and people will use that to hold it out of the way. If you're cutting a lot they get kind of annoying being in the way when you're trying to line up 100's of cuts.
The other comments make some good points.... another thing to consider is the cost of implementing a few sensors on a circuit board that's already inside of the tool and a small license fee compared to the extra parts associated with the spring loaded guard.
@@SensoryAlterations I mean, they wouldn't do away with the guard, the more safety guards the better
I'm a carpenter. when I first started using these i had tons of kickback problems from not knowing how to properly use them. The more and more you use them it becomes less of a problem. But this is definitely a GREAT idea I would definitely be getting one because accidents do happen experienced or not and why not prevent it?
How many fingers does typical learning curve include? :)
I actually cut wood with circular saw today for the first time. And I had 3-4 kickback events. How do you cut "properly" to avoid it? I mean I was holding the saw with the dead grip, so nothing happened, but maybe there is better way of handling it.
Seriously. I don’t understand why you don’t spin the saw the other way around. That way if it come out of the wood, it runs away from you
It's not as much how you hold the saw but what position the wood is in. Kinda hard to explain
The blade pulls the wood into the saw's metal base. If it were the other way the saw would cut by pushing the wood downward causing the saw to climb up normally. The problem is the wood coming back together at the back of the saw were the circular motion is reversed from the front of the cut. The solution should be to use a riving knife to prevent the cut wood gathering in the back of the saw.
Your objective....great. Your methodology.....awesome. Your results.......amazing. Using a computer to analyse what is happening and supply a solution.......brain turns to mush. Holding the saw and causing a kick back ON PURPOSE!.......maximus gonadical bravery! Seriously I will by the first saw to come out with this feature! Great video guys👍
Very cool. I was thinking it's just be simpler to go off the amperage when it spikes, but I guess this specific case demoed the amps wouldnt spike. I can see how this type of kickback can happen but I think it's very irregular because you're pulling the saw instead of pushing it. Which changes the direction of the blade from up pushing into the fence to down and pushing off the wood.
Why did you disable the blade guard? Saw comes out of the work and the guard covers the blade, simple, no electronics to fail. My saw had it from the factory.
Yep, They are making the saw more dangerous, just to prove their technology.
009to090 most get tug of the guard for it hinders some cuts this allows you to be safe whist also doing the job you wanting for.
I am pretty sure they took it off so they could get the footage they need of the saw spinning.
I think it would be good to have both, because if the Electronics fail there is a guard to provide protection. and it the guard get jammed(More likely, a chunk of the wood could jam it) the electronics will more than likely stop it
Believe it or not, I witnessed it. Building a house, one of the elder guys had a skill saw without the blade cover (dangerous and stupid, I know), well - one day it wasn't done spinning down and he sat it on the floor and it took off and ran across his foot, almost severed his toe, so honestly, having the blade guard and this tech would be beneficial for those Darwin award winning people. .
I'm a carpenter with 13 years of strictly residential carpentry under my belt. I'm not trying to knock your test, but you're using fixed parameters.
1 hand pressure from holding the saw usually prevents major kickbacks
2 once it does kick back, the guard is activated once it kicks up above the cutting surface and that usually stops it from being chaotic
3 it seems like what you are implementing is a designated Killswitch. Not all saws, but many of them do you have kill switches as to where it seems optically similar to your technology, stops immediately.
Also what kind of price difference would this be adding on to the overall cost of a circular saw and what would that price be compared to saws that already implement a built-in kill switch? I personally use Ridgid tools, I don't think they use kill switches, I feel like DeWalt might use them. I don't think most worm drives do, I might be wrong I usually only use those made by Skil.
4 so also if your saw going to detect additional stresses which would make it seem like it is in a kickback situation then it would shut off automatically as you want your technology to do. If I'm ripping a 2 x 4 down I will not tolerate a saw that keeps automatically shutting off on me when I'm trying to use it under normal working circumstances. So if you want to implement this technology you need to have an override shut-off mechanism on whoever's saw you decide to use this on. And it looks like you're using a DeWalt, so every time you pull your finger off the trigger it should be stopping automatically, meaning without continual rotation from the kill switch. Now I may be wrong, but I pulled a lot of triggers in my time.
Mike Emerick I was thinking about 1 and 4 this entire video. I don't have huge experience with a skill saw but everytime one has bound up on me I have had a firm grip on it and prevented the kickback. Also there would be nothing worse then having the saw die multiple times in the middle of a cut.
Exactly what I was thinking as well. Put a killswitch button or 2 on the flat surface of the guard so when the saw comes up just enough the button is no longer pressed causing the brake to be implemented.
I mean with the accessibility of DIY projects, a lot of people are using tools and are assuming the safety features are going to keep them safe. Might not be a bad thing. Also the only time I've had it kick back and actually be a bit scary was when not using proper positioning on the saw so I didn't have body weight behind it. Definitely my fault but it only takes once to hurt yourself.
@@zachicusmaximus5551 RIGHT! If I goof up it's not the saws fault. And you'll never make anything bulletproof enough so nobody CAN get hurt with it. Wackos are born all the time. A firm grip on a saw is the best safety device and being READY in case something happens. A chain saw is the same way. You snooze, you loose. Sometimes BIGtime.
Mike Emerick this test is retarded lol.
we actually had kickback protection in our angle grinder and battery powered drills at work. they are made by bosh and it honestly work great. i can't count how many times a drill have gotten stuck with the pevious drill machine made by Dewalt and having in try to rip my hand off and this kick back may not be perfect and have triggered without a kick back have greatly reduced the number of times that it have happened and the few times that i have felt it have it greatly reduced the severity of the twist that the drill induced on my hand.
same with angle grinders but even more important. i had an angle grinder get pinched and it turned out of my hand and cut my thumb. but thanks to this stop did it just cut a small hole in my glove and slightly scrape the top layer of skin and no blood was drawn. that in comparison with a different angle grinder in almost the exact same situation only that i was holding it with my left hand this time. it turned and cut a deep groove on the knuckle on my left indexfinger down to the bone. i was lucky that it didn't hit any critical area of my finger and only cut skin but there was a lot of blood this time.
A HANDHELD SAW STOP?!?!! This just blew my mind! Awesome work, and I want one!
I used to work in a prefab house construction facility and it was one of the most dangerous environments I had ever worked at. Injuries were so common.
Safety features like saw blade guards were removed intentionally to deter theft. (It didn't work...) So being hyper aware was extremely important to self preservation. Not just of what you were doing, but of what others around you were doing. The safety feature on nail guns were removed as well, lots of errant nails flying through the air...
I let my guard down "no pun intended" and my jacket got caught in the saw blade as it was decelerating and shredded deep into the material. Thankfully my finger was off the trigger already!
That is seriously huge violations to code I'm hearing. Report, report, and report. Do not ever, EVER let employers or companies get away with and do things like this. Someone can be very seriously hurt.
I get that people want to make things very complicated (like machine learning), but what we did is use a simple microswitch that sits on the side of the metal guard. if the saw lifts off, power to the saw is removed (like if we released the trigger). People are going to buy this simply because "machine learning" is involved, but really a simple switch would work. However, anything that increases safety can never be a bad thing.
Like a nail gun. If both switches aren't pressed. It doesn't work. You know. That's generally the best way to solve a problem. Just look for someone who already solved it.
@@invendelirium I see your point. Since this is computer based, I can really foresee someone not being able to use the tool that feeds their family because of a software malfunction. That would be awful.
Hahaha, this seems so much simpler and likely more reliable. I'm sorry Destin.
If that's not the case then I'd love to learn why.
How would you do a plunge cut with this system?
@@seabass563 when i was my crew's safety chief, we tried to stay away from plunge cuts as much as possible (since the saw isn't stabilized). however, if we did need to do them (which happens, we all know), we just used a little magnet to pull the switch up from the other side. pre-shift equipment check found if people forgot to take off the magnet.
Did a roofing job recently and had the saw kick back on me while replacing a sheet of plywood. Here I am watching this video because of it! Thanks, Destin! I appreciate these videos!
Did you get hurt? Were you in CONTROL of the dangerous tool in your hand? Are you aware of how the kickback was caused? The easiest way to avoid ALL OF THIS is to respect the tools and the ability they have to mess you up!!! Know how to properly wield them, keep them as SHARP as possible at all times and keep them away from fools!!!! 28 years using table saws, planers, jointers, and all sorts of machines that will chew you and spit you out faster than a heartbeat and no crazy stuff has happened to me because I TAKE SAFETY VERY SERIOUSLY!!!!!! So much so that I take coworkers safety in consideration also. I have shown countless others what they WERE doing dangerously and now they don't anymore. Safety is easy. This video is so ridiculous it gave me a headache! Waste of time guys.
As a carpenter for 20+ yrs, i am curious, how much blade deflection , side to side , and vertically, does your chosen algorithm allow ? There are some cuts that are standard practice in which side to side , ie, saw travels in direction that the arbor is pointing, and vertical, short abrupt up and down motion to keep saw from binding while ripping through funky grain , especially on wet lumber. There are other work arounds but continuing a cut without having to stop, to insert wedge or eat up another person's time, is preferable.
Nice usecase for the AI.
You think saw kickback is bad? Just wait until the AI kicks back when it rises up against us and starts chasing us with the saws that we gave them control over.
@@jeffirwin7862 I like the Terminator movie too. Don't wait until they all become evel, just find someone of them that can be your friend and can protect you ;)
Jeff Irwin i need to start saving and repairing my dad and grandfathers old electric tools if i want power tools that dont kill me of their own free will i guess
@Lassi Kinnunen lazy programming basicaly. Let the ai figure it out, realease the software, iron out the problems as the complaints come in. Software is all the same nowadays, it's all in a beta state, never finished, always being changed and never quite works the way you want it.
Not really. Over engineered like crazy. This could easily be solved with just an accelerometer and 60 minutes of calibration to determine at what level of sudden motion it should turn off.
Even if you don't believe in the concept of this specific safety device you have to consider the implications of how they got their solution. They used AI learning to find a solution to a problem. The computer can analyze thousands of situations and react pretty immediately to a problem. Using this method could open a door to many other similar solutions to issues that may not even be related to the circular saw at all. To me, this video is about their solution to kickback as much as it is about using machine learning to solve real world problems.
Yeah, I agree. This is essentially an ultra refined clutch calibration that stops the motor instead of intentional slip. This would be a very nice feature in any high torque circumstance. My thoughts jump to a right angle drill.
I would call this tech a : velocity sensitive position relative safety sensor. (VeS PReSS)
Company name ....Ves Press safety sensors..
I do appreciate the effort, but it didnt use AI. It used machine learning, which is what we used to call statistics back in the day.
@@roromad9603 They use what is nowadays colloquially called AI: a computer program that can make "smart independent decisions". How this particular AI is implemented is by doing machine learning: feed the program plenty of data, and let it learn by itself. Also, I do appreciate the efforts but whereas it may appear close to statistics, there is a slight difference. Here, they only care about prediction: they don't care to understand what constitutes a kickback event , they just care to detect when there is one. No statistical machinery is involved (no test, no inference, no nothing). At the end of the day they don't have a better understanding of kickbacks: the machine has just learned how to recognize one. Machine learning and statistics are not interchangeable words.
@@wiwh404 This is not artificial intelligence nor is it machine learning. There is NO WAY that I want a simple program predicting whether or not a kickback event is occurring. To do so would be to put people's lives in jeopardy. This is statistical modeling based on data. That is it. Sorry, but it is nothing more. People like to throw around "AI" and "Machine learning" to make it look like they are doing something more than what it really this. This is just statistical modeling. that is it. Now, this does not negate the fact that two really smart people are trying to figure out ways to make things safer using very cool methods. I appreciate and respect the effort.
you put out some of the best content on you tube, & this one WILL save some lives... that gives me goosebumps.
Hey @SmarterEveryDay I'm a long time watcher (nearly a decade now!). Thank you for all these awesome videos and inspiring me to continue learning. I'm wanting to get into woodworking more, but the table saw (rightfully) scares the bajeebers out of me. I've looked at SawStop saws but can't afford something like that. Where is this technology that you've developed with Chad? Is anything in production or plans for production? Would love to see something like this in a table saw as it could save lots of fingers as kickback on a table saw can suck your hand into the blade in addition to kicking pieces of wood into your abdomen at mach 10,000 (yes I used my high-speed camera to measure and calculate that speed; no I didn't get hit in my abdomen to find out; yes only one of those sentences is true and I'll let you figure out which is which).
In short - I would love to see this in a circular saw - or even better yet a table saw - I can buy. Help?
..........am I the only one disappointed that they removed the safety guard? I really wanted to see how quickly that will fall into place.
@@albertogomez6196 Sorry, but I've never seen someone use a saw without the safety guard.
@@albertogomez6196 .....ummmmm...I literally know ZERO people that have taken the blade guard off. That includes about 15 contractors who use one professionally.
@@albertogomez6196 Maybe people you know do that. I would not call that a "normal" practice.
animalmother556x45 usually framers or a dedicated cut man will wedge the guard up. Sometimes thin or profile cuts can’t be done without the guard being manually held open. The angle of approach makes the guard push the saw over instead of opening the guard.
You’re not the only one man
Man, this is so cool. My dad and I have woodworking tools in our garage, and I've worked on countless service project(and Eagle Projects) and this would be so freaking useful. Just knowing that there's a safety mechanism implemented digitally as well as mechanically already makes this 10 times more useful than one of those "smart fridges"
I landed my first carpentry job,,, because the guy before me died. Circular saw kickback that rotated up into his abdomen. I walked on site unaware asking for a job just over an hour later. Three years later a coworker was seriously injured when a saw kicked back across his thigh.
I went out a few days later and purchased a Black and Decker Super Sawcat, 8.25", with a dynamic brake. It was 10 times the cost of other saws at the time. I used, exclusively Black and Decker Super Sawcats for the next 40 years. My last one died last year. I now use a Makita with no brake, Basically,, I hate it. It was designed by a college educated engineer who had never,,, never used it on a job site. A beautiful, powerful tool, that requires three hands for safe operation. I, of course, do not have three hands so there are distinct compromises to safe operation on a daily basis.
The dynamic blade stop is the first and most important safety feature. The second is never,,, I emphasize that word,, never ,, be behind the saw during cutting,, always at right angles to the cut line. Always,, the cord must be on the clear side of your body. Many injuries have occurred because the cord guided the saw around a person and then across some body part.
And your basic suppositions of speed and power of the kickback are absolutely correct. No human can sense and respond to a full kickback faster than the saw can injure you.. For nearly all saws,, keep saw and cord out to your right, (there are a few left hand saws) , never cut something that is supported or fastened on both ends (the waste piece must be allowed to fall away), always grip your saw as though your life depends up[on it. It does.
Awesome test and solution ! It actually happened to me some years ago hopefully I had my two hands firmly holding on to the machine so I managed to control the kickback but I have to admit I really got scared with that and still precisely remember it as I thought I got pretty close from serious accident. At least there should be a disclaimer these type of tools
Dude, I love how the verses you put at the end of the video are always 100% related to the content of the video. It's freaking awesome.
I never noticed that the verse was different! Thank you for pointing that out.
So just using a accelerometer circuit, a comparator chip, a transistor and a solid state relay is basically all you would need for this. Pretty amazing idea.
this implementation requires learning algorithms, but if you can extract the "profile" of the kickback from the data, then yes you would only need that, for now it requires a computer though.
In the video description it mentions that it's storing the last 250ms of data to look for patterns and avoid false alarms. Your setup would work, but it may set off any time you jiggled it too hard.
Reminds me of knock sensors in cars and how the ECU automatically pulls timing to react, very cool stuff
Can you make one for a table saw? I imagine would use an optical sensor as the trigger. I cut burnt hardwood trees into small planks to use as stock for woodworking projects, and because I never have a flat surface to start out with, I'm at a high risk of kickback. Even though I stand off to the side, I recently had a piece kickback into palm of my hand cutting a flap of skin loose. Thanks for so many awesome videos.
This is actually really clever! Nice job!
I did the same but I used a micro switch that triggers when the plate loses contact to the work piece, works a treat, costs 2$ + an afternoon.
@@teuton8363 so you only cut plywood? I just use my brain and till this day a saw has never kicked back on me.
WHAT VIDEOS DO YOU NOT WATCH????????? Ive seen you everywhere
@@teuton8363 Good idea. How often did it activate accidentally? There was a change in patent law a couple of years ago in response to some highly publicized patent troll cases. It is now much cheaper and easier to get a provisional patent. Like $100. You can get people to draw your claim cheap on the internets and file, then shop it around. Or just sell the conversion kit on your facebook page.
I know this comment will get lost in the sea of comments but I am still typing it out.
I just wanted to say that your channel was the first one I subscribed to on youtube,and except for that time you asked us to unsubscribe and resubscribe I have been a loyal subscriber.
Not just for the cool slow mo stuff,or the cool experiments you do.But mostly because you are passionate about science.
Don't get me wrong I like science as well,but I don't have that passion you have,and having someone that wants to shear rather then just reading from a text book or holding a speech makes it a lot easier for me to get some science into my life.
Thank you for keeping your content coming and keep up the good work.
Same! I love this channel.
This is a fantastic application for machine learning, and effective leveraging of the commodity sensors now common in game controls and cell phones. I've actually been waiting for someone to do something like this, it should definitely be a default feature on consumer & light industrial powered hand tools. Even drills over a certain torque & power, as they can break your arm before you can let go when a bit locks up in what your drilling.
Personally, I'd need the ability to switch it off when I'm "improperly using my saw".. I mean.. carving artwork. Much that same way I have some older non-computerized welders I can "use improperly" for the effect produced.
But, ripping a sheet of plywood with a circular saw.. I'm all over this being in my saws!
Of course ANY technology is always a double edge sword, and new failure modes get introduced, thus I'm put in mind of an Agatha Christie esque murder plot with tampered AI power tool safety systems... intentionally inducing a fatal kickback event. IRL, Might need a security diagnostic against a set of fixed hashed values. A safety system for the safety system. Much like we now have RCD/GFCI technology as a sort of intelligence safty check to keep people from dying while making toast in the bathtub.
I find pulsing the trigger through tricky cuts helps. Essentially the cut occurs only during deceleration of the blade. This sensor technology though would make kickbacks less puckery!
This happens a lot with anglegrinders, but I haven‘t had this happen with a hand saw before.
Oh so true! Especially if you are using a zip disk!
Radial arm saws are also very very prone to kickback
@@PT1040 Please tell me, what exactly is a "zip disk"?
Cutoff wheel I'm guessing? They're also called circular saws because hand saws essentially describe a flat-bladed human-powered saw :)
Agree, much common with angle grinder especially when cutting deep on concrete with diamond disc it will quite easily kick back.
@@Mister_Pines yep, what they said ...cut off disk. my terminology is old school. I believe that's what they were first called when they introduced them for angle grinders.
Someone else here mentioned concrete saws. I concur. Those concrete saws can kick back like a bugger as well
As someone who knows a guy who nearly got disemboweled by a saw kicking back, this is indeed something that needs to be added to more machines.
Table saws, certain types of band saws, and even a few radial arms have things like this already, so why not the ones that can potentially do more than just cut a finger off at worst?
Saws are dangerous in general and even with experience things can happen that are bad and usually it comes from fatigue while using the items. Where your brain power is running out and those things you normally feel or listen for are delayed because of fatigue and this is where these things can help.
Bandsaws are relatively safe. Table saws can impale you with a piece of wood, and throw wood at crazy speeds, so you won't just lose a finger.
Plunge/track saws can still kick back. you're just riding a saw in a track, not fixing it to the track.
@@sarinhighwind fatigue plays a big role but in my experience the biggest contributor in woodworking tool accidents today is intentionally disabling safety features and ignoring safety guidelines. E.g. removing safety covers, splitting wedges, taping on safety switches. In other words being stupid in the first place.
Thunder Winkle : plunge saws & track saws are not really more safe than a circular saw with a spring cover. While any such mechanism is great and reduces severity of injury the best safety feature to prevent pinching and thereby kickback is, again the wedge.
Should be able to use the same approach with table saws and use a current transducer on one of the motor leads to track motor load. I thought it was overkill to use ML, but after watching, it was definitely a good and smart application of the tech. Bravo!
Very awesome! Seveneves is a cool book too.
I'm actually a professional carpenter, and I must say this is interesting. I'd like to see the saw in actual use though. In the case of someone like me, I'd say this is rather useless, because if you know how to use the saw properly, kickback is a non issue, and false events would become a major annoyance. How often would you say the algorithm produces a false positive? Is this from ammature use? or professional use?
All that being said I do think this invention would be very valuable to inexperienced users. I can't tell you how many people I've had working under me that I've seen cause kickback in their saws and not even understand why it is acting the way it is.
I disagree. Hobby carpenters don’t have the right experience or training, and pros do so much cutting that they are continually exposed to this risk. I’m on board with safer stuff even when it costs more and weighs more. Whenever I occasionally hire a pro carpenter, they cut more wood in a couple days than I will in my entire life. Multiply this by all the jobs they do and even for knowledgeable guys the risk is pretty elevated.
@@MikesTropicalTech but are they really a pro if they are missing a finger?
Michael Brown Well, I guess they weren’t as “professional “ as they thought they were.
I agree with Dylan, its very cool, but false positives are going to be more of an annoyance for professionals verses amateurs. And I'm not a professional, but I was raised by a Journeyman Carpenter and in my 30 years of hobby woodworking and construction I've never had a kickback with Skilsaw I didn't expect. Support your wood properly and have someone holding it to keep from pinching and it just doesn't happen, except for those times when its a small cut that can't be supported or held. Then you know it might happen and you stand appropriately just in case.
The great thing that it is being trained by a neral network means that the more it's used the less false positives happen.
Flintstones would just have put a switch under the saw to detect lift of the saw and send signal to the braking system.
I'm very interested to know how he got the data for the machine learning. Because not every saw has all those sensors built in.
They used a gyro/accelerometer board and Arduino.
@@aspecreviews Yeah and not all the saws have those sensors built in. But that was only part of my question. Because how many saws had these modifications done to them and how many people helped him get all the data.
Developing another safety feature like this is a great idea!
I must say though, If you can't hold a saw strongly enough or control the saw under kickback conditions, then you shouldn't be using a circular saw.
Yeah exactly. Circular saw kickback is nothing like kickback with a chainsaw haha. That's probably why the manufacturers don't have kickback braking systems on them.
You're a dumbass.
@@jacobengland1350Yes, I can tell from your eloquent retort that you are one of the most intelligent people live ever met! Hahaha!