The real game changer would have been for no battle of Britain any fight at all gives Germany a loss in Russia. Avoiding an industrial beat from bombing and a loss of air craft is the only thing that gives him a win against Russia. Like any lend lease was ever paid back to the U S. By any Country. That was the hope of the U.S Bankers that pushed the U.S. into the war.
Yeah, I was just listening to the introduction on headphones without looking and though 'haha, "Joe Thomas", that's the same name as that actor.... wait, actual Joe Thomas, cool!'
Many alternative histories seriously underestimate the Royal Navy. That was where Britain's true military strength lay. Her army was small compared to most European countries, though highly professional. The Royal Nacy was still the most powerful in the world at that time. Even with air superiority by the Luftwaffe, invading Britain would have posed an immense challenge - the Channel is a very significant natural barrier, and in defense of Britain, the Royal Navy would have thrown everything it had into the battle. The German Kriegsmarine was small by comparison - Germany was a land power, not a maritime one. In fact she did not really have the naval capacity to carry her army across the Channel, the flotilla being assembled for Operation Sealion included many adapted civilian ships. Transporting heavy equipment would have posed an even bigger problem. The British Navy could have inflicted tremendous losses - and of course, the Royal Airforce would still have existed and again, would have thrown every available fighter into the battle.
Having control over the sky is the very definition of total victory. The English navy would have been bombed into oblivion. There is no way the English navy even makes it into battle, let alone the channel. It would have been suicide.
It is fairly accepted that Operatoon Sealion has no chance of success even if the Germans had won the Battle of Britain. Military experts from Britain and Germany set up an extensive wargame in the 1970s and the outcome was that while Germany could have landed some divisions very quickly they would have been cut off and forced to surrender.
@@StoutProper Everything was different on D Day . Lots of landing craft of all types . Germany had almost nothing for an assault on an enemy held coast . They had no way of getting a tank onto a beach . The Royal Navy would have done terrible damage. It's a pity they didn't attempt it. A bit of payback for Dunkirk.
Many experts have considered this question over the years. As others have mentioned, it has been wargamed extensively, and the overwhelming conclusion is that it would have ended in disaster for the Germans. They did not have a practical plan for the invasion, they did not have the sealift capacity (or experience) and they did not have the airlift capacity either to transport supplies to their invasion force even IF they managed to get ashore. They treated it like a big river crossing - but the channel currents mean that they would have had to spend 18 hours in flat bottomed barges - The RN - which had a massive MASSIVE numerical superiority (I think young people today do not appreciate how huge the superiority was back then) would have raced through the invasion barges like wolves - even the wake of the destroyers would swamp the low freeboard barges. At night time the luftwaffe could do nothing. During the day the RAF reserves would be brought down from the north to protect the RN - and actually the luftwaffe statistically were not very successful at attacking manoeuvering high speed destroyers (see Dunkirk - the ones that got sunk were stationary) - oh and they had virtually no torpedo attack ability. Even if they did attack, chances are the RN destroyers and MGBs and MTBs would be amongst the German barges and troops so they would be bombing also their own. The RN captains knew full well the stakes and wrote letters home stating that they would sacrifice themselves if necessary. So, even if they got ashore - what then? Suffering from exposure, seasickness, loss of equipment they have to assault pre- prepared defensive positions with light weaponry, and local forces with heavy weapons would converge on them. The barges that took them there (if any survive) would have to spend 18 hours or so going back - while under attack - load up the second wave / supplies and make the same journey back. The JU52 transport fleet just wasn't enough to supply any decent force by air. This also means capturing a (well defended) airfield, so often touted as a "gotcha" solution, means nothing really. The wargames mentioned - the ONLY way any German force actually landed was by "cheating" and magically moving the RN out of the way for 48 hours. Even then the German force was totally defeated within days. It was never going to happen - and the German commanders knew it really. They were hugely relieved when the plan was abandoned!
You may be right, certainly valid points. That being said, the French army was in many respects as strong or stronger than the German army in late 1939 on paper, and I'd imagine there weren't many war games that would have predicted a complete French collapse to the Germans in a matter of weeks to minimal German losses. In light of that, and a feeling that nothing is guaranteed in war, I can never quite convince myself that the outcome of a German invasion could be predetermined. If anyone has book recommendations on the topic I'd find those very interesting.
Certainly much quieter, what with certain groups being exterminated, and much of the civilian population deported for use as slave labour in the fatherland.
I think even if the Nazi's landed across the channel, maintaining a supply line through would have been extremely difficult. The logistics alone would have been a gargantuan and impractical task.
With what to bother their lines of supply? The Royal Navy would have been the next victim of the bombing attack to destroy their ports, fuel depots,repair yards, The Royal Navy would have had to fight with only the ammunition they had sailed with the U Boats and the German Air Forces would have forced them to sail to Canada and plan to defend from there .
It was mentioned that the British were "supposed to have had bombs which when dropped on water would spread fire". There were such bombs in World War II. They were called, "napalm". And, they are horrible. Signed, A Vietnam veteran.
That Phosphorous bomb brought back a great memory. My grandfather used to tell a story about a day where the home guard had been training with them in the sand pits and left one behind which the local children (incl him) got hold, anyway upon ignition they panicked and tried to put it out with their shoes first and then their jackets. He said his father was furious but when the local policeman came by he had brought with him a new pair of shoes for him. Different times then.
I used to play with nukes and alligators when I was a kid. And that was only in the 80's. You'd never see a kid playing with nuclear device these days, not even a simple tactical one. I'm not sure about alligators... probably not. It's all health and safety gone mad.
Fortunately, the Chain Home system was very difficult to knock out from the air. The Stukas gave their all, but they only knocked out a few stations, and they were back online in hours or days.
@@PORRRIDGE_GUN - Yes, Chain Home and Chain Home Low were remarkable systems for their time. Although from what I've read, it looks like the operators needed a lot of skill to distinguish an incoming raid from the usual clutter and noise. Rather like an old-fashioned "fish-finder," where all you see is a little yellow band that might be a fish or not. I suspect that the secrets of RDF were so tightly protected, historians will never know all the details. Rather like how I was taught that the first digital computer was ENIAC in 1947, when now we know it was the Heath Robinson contraptions built at Bletchley Park.
CHH & CHL were clumsy, Heath Robinson-esque affairs, but when used correctly and data analysed in command centres they were vital. The Germans went down the road more of airborne detection and interception radar and blind flying landing and bombing aids, whilst the British thought about a warning system for the entire East and South Coasts. Technology vs employment. By war's end though, the breadth, sophistication and varied employment of allied radar systems meant many defied obsolescence for another 20 years or more
@@pacificostudios There were firing solution computers on battleships. I don't know where they sit in computational history but they were a happening thing even before Bletchley.
The Germans didn't fully realise the importance of the radar network otherwise they would have gone after them as a higher priority. Also, the JU87s suffered high losses and were withdrawn on Goring's order, this contributed to fewer attacks on these instillations. The Luftwaffe intelligence service was generally inept and played a significant part in the RAF success.
Ain’t nobody back then sniping out to a mile. Even a British one at 1700yards. The longest recording of a sniper kill up to the point of WW2 was Billy Dixon in 1864 at 1406m or 1538yds. Things definitely have come a long way since then with the use of modern arms, optics, ammo and ballistic devices. Current record is at 3540m or 3871 in May 2017 by a sniper with JTF-2 Canadian Armed Forces. Done with a 338 Lapua Magnum in Iraq. Interestingly it took around 10 seconds of bullet flight to hit his target. A immensive feat of the snipers skill and skills of his observation team.
@@StoutProper damn autocorrect, fixed it to 10seconds of bullet flight. As far as COD, Naah I just spent 3 decades doing the real thing in the US Army.
@@redfernsoljah I always think someone is lying when they claim to be an ex servicemen. It's a real shame people pretend they served in the military. Not saying you're lying.
@@Joe-og6br ehh whatever. I’ve done my time. Don’t care what other believe. Airforce air cargo 91-2000 then Army till 2014 combat medic. Retired medical 2014 combat injuries from a deployment. My scars are enough for me. Don’t need a thank you for your service to bolster me. I know what I’ve done.
Still not sure Sea Lion would work. D-Day was a logistical nightmare that needed almost divine intervention to be pulled off and had more than 300,000 personal involved
People severely underestimate just how complex amphibious assaults (and the stages that come afterwards) actually are. Conquering Britain was almost impossible for Germany in 1940/41 and CERTAINLY impossible in the years that followed.
It was never going to happen. Germany did not have the resources. Bomber command and Coastal command and naval air assets were still available. They had no landing craft, they had barges . Good luck with that. The RN would have had a field day .
@@Haanicoos Yeah I agree, i can't comprehend some people even entertaining the idea of occupying Britain. Sure, Germany dominated on land but it was a sudden strike with no preparation on the opposition and on LAND. Given the time needed to prepare an amphibious assault, ready the supply lines AND deploy countermeasures to the royal navy would have been catastrophic for holding territory already gained and would have required far too much of German intelligence and resources and hindered all other war fronts. Basically a suicide mission which war with the rest of Europe was anyway, but much faster.
@@NinjamonkeySam Also troops need training for amphibous landings even then it may not work. The US and UK were highly experience in naval warfare by 1944 and even they near lost it at anzio and D-Day.
Lucky Britannia was no longer connected to the mainland of Europe . It broke away in a sort of flooding after the last ice age when the ice sheets melted and what is now the English channel was 0nce land connected to mainland Europe . Saved by geography . The Irish Sea, North Sea and the Channel were all dry land, albeit land slowly being submerged as sea levels rose. But it wasn't until 6.000 BC that Britain broke free of mainland Europe for good, during the Mesolithic period - the Middle Stone Age Subsequent changes in sea level at the end of that ancient ice age further confirmed its insularity, and Britain's connection to mainland Europe was lost. Can you imagine had the former ancient landscape not changed , the black shirts and union of fascists under Sir Oswald Mosley would have been made head of the Britische gov. Gin Gin All is well and fair in love and war eh
Hitler’s early successes were basically because he analyzed the WW1 trenchwar stalemate and engineered around it using a combination of new tank & aircraft technologies. But he was a one-trick pony that didn’t listen to his generals. His poor decision to attack Russia killed him.
No, it was British strategists, Liddell-Hart came up with the idea of massed Tank formation in the early 20s. As H G Wells came up with the Ironclads, early tanks in his scientific romances. It could have all gone badly wrong with the traffic jam of the German army in the Ardennes in 1940, if the Allied air forces had not missed it.
Yep he started out great. But he should've annihilated the French/ British at Dunkirk. He should've fired Goering. He should have had nothing to do with Mussolini.....
@@thedave8097 So you’re saying you sign a nonaggression pact with somebody, they don’t attack you and then you attack them because you have to… M’kay…fr
@Skyprince27 Yes, conflict between Russia and Germany was innevitable. But the main factor was that Germany would only realistically have fuel supplies for their tanks for only 1-2 years had they not invaded Russia. That wouldn't have been enough to win the war against the allies, let alone a prolonged war against a prepared Russia.
The British had RADAR but home advantage meant they didn’t have to carry fuel to recross the channel like the Germans also they could easily rearm, the bullets lasted about 40 seconds. This is probably why in the fall of France the Germans had air superiority early on in the East whereas the British had superiority in the west.
According to historian James Holland, the ME109 had about 40 seconds of machine gun ammunition, Spitfires and Hurricanes had about 15 seconds each. At the time of the Battle of Britain, the 109 also had cannons, but there is some dispute as to how effective the latter were. To fit them into the 109, they had to make them smaller and reduce their power, thus making them less effective.
@@Gwynbuck the 15 seconds were 8 machine guns. The Grrman 40s were just two. The German Me109E's 20mm were plenty effective vs the RAFs aircraft of the time. The British would eventually up gun to 20mm cannons. The Germans would up gun to 30mm by wars end due to the allies usage of large 4 engine bombers.
This is, by far, the best channel on TH-cam. Granted, it takes a certain type to live this channel. But I could miss the end of the world by bit paying attention outside and going through all the videos on it :D keep it up, this is absolutely top notch documentary work.
Excellent discussion, something for everyone from those new to alternate history to the old hands chatting this for years. My Dad went "overseas" in '40 to serve in the artillery. They were tasked with home defence and later formed into a heavy artillery regiment for the ETO. Well described in Nicholson's book "More Fighting Newfoundlanders."
Really interesting to muse over the potential turning points but it brings me back to my eternal gratitude to those brave resilient and selfless people who gave the ultimate sacrifice! May each and every one of them rest in peace ♥️
@@m.hughmungus121 I'm with you on that one and I'm a German American.The World Wars killed the best of the best of Europe and America to the glee of the globalists.
Would’ve been a better place than now . My Nan and grandad was in the raf and was fuming on what this government has done to this country. Embarrassing
There is too much British Navy fawning. The United States and Japan showed how deadly planes were in the seas of WW2. For these historians ( not military strategists) to just dismiss control over the channel skies complimented by the german u boat fleets seems a tad silly.
@@The_ConqueeftadorLJ Yes. I have a cousin on my dad's side of the family who not only was a fighter pilot in Vietnam, but went onto become an astronaut. Now retired he ownes his own consulting business.
@@The_Conqueeftadorgood point but Germany did not have that much in the way of maritime strike aircraft. But yes you are right to some degree in my humble opinion
Germany didn't have the resources to take and *hold* Britain. Getting troops and supplies across the channel would have been tremendously difficult. Not to mention the Germans dragged multiple countries into the war. Not enough resource to fight so many fronts.
@@judyparsons1333 not necessarily. Germany had no dedicated landing craft. Whoever didn't drown in the channel would be landing on barges already making things much more difficult to secure a beachhead which they would then have to hold. Not to mention the kriegsmarine would face the near impossible task of defending them from the Royal Navy. War games after the war estimated Germany would lose 60,000 men captured or killed after being encircled by the navy
One thing they didn't mention is the fact that the germans could've gotten a peace deal out of britian if they had crushed the British and french at dunkirk this would've forced britain to peace or even surrender... another way was Mosley if the Germans had waited a little longer with war then he could've gotten in power or committed a coup... and there's was also operation Green woch was invading Ireland or having them declare war on britain while the germans would've helped them defeat britain... or Germany could've focused on africa and the middle east then invade the soviets at right time with a lot of resources, and the most important thing the germans could've invaded the soviet also through the middle east into the oilfields of the soviets while also invading from europe, this way the soviets would've fallen bc they wouldn't have had oil their warmachine and logistics would've just collapsed without oil. And when the soviets had fallen in that point the germans would've become unstoppable bc they would've had almost all of the worlds resources and industry and they could've outproduced britain on every front within a year or 2 and in this scenario the battle of the rest of the world would've begun possible or the germans would've be happy with defeating britain or having peace with britain bc they would've been so big in power that they would've been an litteral world order without invading the rest of the world...
'When Napoleon lay at Boulogne for a year, with his flat bottom boats and his Grande Armée; he was told by someone - there are bitter weeds, in England'
Submersible tanks? Oh, come ON! Crossing a river underwater maybe, but crossing the channel? I don't know what colour mushrooms you've been eating, but I'd stop eating them if I were you.
As a WW2 enthuisiast allow me to interject. Yes, they were deployed. But they were, to put it mildly, useless. See the tanks were designed to be used in calm or near-calm waters, the channel with those waves? It wrecked them, the waterproofing was not designed for it.
@@Whoami691 He dont say amphibious...he said" submersible". I dont quite know the tanks he is refering to. I dont know any tank WW2 that could travel underwater for that distance. ( And that depth)
I'd like to see a discussion of what would have happened if the Germans had won the First Battle of the Marne in WWI and occupied Paris. Would the allies have sued for peace? Would the Russian Revolution never have happened? Would the Edwardian Era continued?
Indeed, a lot of people still believe according to the beliefs of the time, then-influenced by inaccurate intelligence that had the British believing the Luftwaffe, and German aircraft production, to be far greater in number than they actually were. Reality was that, by the height of the Battle of Britain, British fighter production was out-pacing German fighter production three-to-one. While the battle in the air might have been tight with a slight advantage to the British, each British loss was FAR more rapidly replaced than each German loss - this all the more so true among air crew as those from the R.A.F. who bailed out over or survived controlled crash landings in England were able to return directly to service. Had Karl Donitz, on the other hand, actually had the number of U-boats he'd "wanted" to have by the time war broke out, Britain might simply never have had the lifeline it needed to have, through that kind of U-boat armada, to buy the time it needed to achieve its technological advantage (most critically breaking the German code, innovating more modern anti-submarine tactics and technology, etc.).
Really? How well did you know him? Also../your comment is flawed in it's very premise, as you have inverted the timeline. The BofB was decided before the Atlantic really became center stage and critical. Yes it was underway, and yes a looming threat...but the immediacy of the air threat and it's follow-on invasion were the absolute priority and worry of the entire British command chain. Your comment is out of synch, simplistic and assumptive...without merit.
@@shielahaberecht3417 hhhhuuumm the bob started in sept 1940,the battle of the Atlantic started sept 1939 ..roughly ... plus the british knew what was coming from the experience of ww1 .. which would you be more worried about ... a few bombs or starvation ...
@@grumpyoldman-21 Irrelevant...Summer 1940 was all-consuming air war and threat of invasion. The Atlantic was a sideshow for those months. Hardly matters if they were conquered and occupied. Get a grip...
Quite an interesting discussion, My Father(a Dunkirk survivor) always believed that had The Germans Landed they would have had an easy time of it, Morale was low and the so called "Free" forces were in the same boat as the British army with all the heavy equipment left behind in Europe. The Royal Navy while very large was spread around the globe and protecting possessions in other parts of the world. Following the proviso of this talk, with a severely weakened Army, a destroyed RAF, would the British be happy to suffer severe damage to its last functioning service or do what Vichy France did and relocate to say Canada, with the Royal Family/Cabinet and the Gold reserves that had already left the country? that seems more than likely. There was a mention of 3 Thousand Fallschirmjager and no doubt more would be available in training, if they had landed and managed to occupy a smallish port, a invasion of some kind may have been possible, and as for the Home Guard not even a consideration. I suspect there may have been a resistance by a few blowhards but the British are a practical and well disciplined people (Just like the Germans) and when they saw that resistance was futile it would of ceased. (It Never happened in the Channel Islands} The most likely scenario would of been a realisation by the British that "Terms" of some sort where needed as the hope of "Empire Troops" rescuing Britain was more a pipe dream then a reality, and unlikely to happen. The other alternative is a face off as in the time of the Napoleonic wars and the hope of Russia may have become involved (and did) and fought back and won the war. Would America and its isolationist policy have entered the war,maybe but how would it have hit back at Germany and its Allies,would be the main problem.with the UK occupied, there is no jumping of point to fight from. Had Britain been occupied unless there was a resistance it would have been a benign occupation, and a puppet government soon established ( and it would have had a lot of support from the Elites, more so I think then many would believe.)
Speech by SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Richard Darre - 1940 Richard Darre’s infamous speech made in 1940, detailed the fate of the British people, and makes chilling reading. “As soon as we beat England we shall make an end of you Englishmen once and for all. Able- bodied men and women between the ages of 16 and 45 will be exported as slaves to the Continent. The old and weak will be exterminated. All men remaining in Britain as slaves will be sterilised; a million or two of the young women of the Nordic type will be segregated in a number of stud farms where, with the assistance of picked German sires, during a period of 10 or 12 years, they will produce annually a series of Nordic infants to be brought up in every way as Germans. These infants will form the future population of Britain. They will be partially educated in Germany and only those who fully satisfy the Nazi’s requirements will be allowed to return to Britain and take up permanent residence. The rest will be sterilised and sent to join slave gangs in Germany. Thus, in a generation or two, the British will disappear.”
@@mogznwaz Congratulations you have just won that prize that no one really wants to win but is handed out by TH-cam which is "The most silliest and stupidest comment that has no real relevance or meaning". Well done.
The Germans may well have had an easy time of it because of the lack of weaponry the British had to fight back with. My father's large group of Local Defence Volunteers (later renamed Home Guard) had one rifle and no bullets between all of them. After Dunkirk the rifle was requisitioned by the Army. Among the elites, it was generally assumed that a German occupation was likely because there was a strong demand from well-to-do young ladies for German language tutors so they could improve their future marriage prospects. Some residents of Southampton moved away from the city because 'those in the know' considered the immediate area one of the more likely invasion points for the Germans. The Isle of Wight and New Forest were poorly defended, with only small pockets of population, plenty of relatively easy access points and more favourable topography for moving rapidly inland than the Channel Ports. The most significant military asset in the area, Portsmouth, could be neutralised simply by sinking a ship in the narrow entrance channel.
This channel is amazing,!! Have you thought about adding subs in other languages? My dad is a big fan of IIWW history and he would love all your content, unfortunately, he just speaks Catalan and Spanish
My dad loves history too thats how i got into it when i was a kid.I hope they add subtitles so your dad can enjoy it too.Thats really awesome u get to watch it with him.I miss doing that with my dad.
@@ghostman3398 one thing missing, the battle of Narvik, the German lost so many ships, crossing the Channel they had no chance, Also the topography of the UK.
This is another question that I had when they said Churchill could've become another de Gaulle if he escaped to America: what would have happened to people like Charles de Gaulle who had escaped the German invasion of France?
Do you? I would recommend reading books by credible historians instead. Irvine seems to get most of his ideas from Volkischer Beobachter. Yest, I have read some of his 'works', by the way. Especially his nonsense about Dresden, where his statistics were repeated almost word for word from Goebbels' propaganda claims.
There's a couple of things about this. Firstly, although the Royal Navy would not necessarily have stopped an invasion... they only needed to clobber German logistics for a couple of days. The RN was vast. The Z-plan did not account for the RN building more ships to stay ahead of the Germans. Also, the Luftwaffe did not have the experience or training to destroy a warship underway at sea whilst it is firing back. The RAF never needed air superiority. They only needed to deny the same to the Luftwaffe.
Well said. I've long been an amateur student of alternative history. I dont think a German victory of BoB would change much, unless they did actually go ahead with sea lion (and a BoB victory doesn't mean Germany would have went through with it). If they won BoB, I'd rate the odds of sea lion happening at maybe 15% I'd rate the odds of s successful landing at less than 5 or 10%. And the odds of a victory (or even hanging on) after 5 days at less than 1%. The morale of the troops after the defeat on the continent couldn't have been good (but you can't underestimate the Brits in that regard). But, what I think is interesting is if a German BoB victory lead to Sea Lion and then the extreme likelihood of crushing defeat of the Germans--how would that impact Barbarossa? Would Hiltler have paused? How long. And would he rethought the ill advised declaration on the US? Or would he have taken the victory of BoB to ramp up the blitz and brought a strategic bombing campaign against Britain to make them pursue peace? Or would it have played out pretty much the same? Fun to think about with the distance of time.
The impact of Germany gaining Britains industrial capacity would have been devastating for Germany’s other foes. The capacity aircraft, ship and arms manufacture would have enabled them to wipe the floor with the Russians…. They could have opened fronts from Norway to the Black Sea whilst having access to the Persian oil fields
In his memoirs, Churchill talked about the possibility of England's fall to the Germans. He had plans to extract the government of England to, I believe, Canada, and continue the struggle from there. He would not have been captured, and he would not have given up the fight. England still had her empire, and while he acknowledged that re-entering Europe from Canada would have been far more difficult, he was never going to give up. I would also like to point out that this was one of the brilliant points of the lend-lease program with America. Many critical islands and territories were "lent" to America in return for the war aid, most notably the badly-need destroyers. The idea was that even in England fell, those islands would be safely in American hands and could be used as forward bases by America against Germany. They would have been crucial to returning to Europe.
I'd be interested to know what would have happened if England had never subjugated the Welsh, and never stole all of their mineral wealth, and siphoned all of the profits out of the country.
So, the Luftwaffe gains temporary air superiority. All the Germans then need to do is get the nine divisions of their first wave to their landing beaches in modified Rhine barges towed, in cumbersome box formations, at little more than walking pace, in pairs, by tugs, trawlers, and small coasters. The Kriegsmarine estimated that this would require eleven days. All the time this is going on, they are relying on the same Luftwaffe which had failed abysmally at Dunkirk to protect the barges from the seventy or so Royal Navy light cruisers and destroyers assembled as the RN's main anti-invasion force, backed up by around five hundred smaller warships. Good luck!
I think you folks are a bit under the delusion as if Germany had failed in Dunkirk. That there had been plenty of other moments in which Germany had pinched off forces from their logistical supplies without issues in taking POW's. Fundamentally the Brits then had by and large been spared than defined that outcome purely on their own terms.
It wouldn't have been the Luftwaffe that would have been the RN's worry, more of a threat would have been a U-boat screen, and even then the U-boats wouldn't have it their own way.
@@travellingtim1 Not really. The Kriegsmarine hadn't the ability to put out any sort of U-Boat screen. In September 1940 they had an average of 13 boats only at sea on any one day. Furthermore, the three boats which they sent into the Channel in October 1939 were all sunk at once without achieving anything.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 the perceived threat from U-boats would have been real though with the Royal oak being fresh in the memory....the reality though I guess would have been any U-boat screen being hunted to destruction within a couple of days. It's interesting to wonder though what an unopposed force of 200+ bombers could have done to the home fleet.
@@travellingtim1 The Home Fleet was at Rosyth, well out of range of anything other than unescorted bombers. Moreover, at the time, the Luftwaffe had not been trained in anti-shipping operations, resulting in their failure at Dunkirk. Furthermore, in the whole of the war, the Luftwaffe sank 31 RN destroyers, and no RN ship larger than a light cruiser. The Luftwaffe didn't even have a torpedo bomber until mid 1942.
@@wlm7434. Agreed, totally left wide open to suggestions and here say. It’s a very loose term and victory is only won by being victorious in the operations in the theatre of war. You can’t have failure we’re victory is won, other wise the objectives would not be met and failure of victory would happen, so she is wrong as she used a loose vague term that clearly is self defeating !!!
@@dave8323 People always go on about the USA and funds they gave through the land/lease scheme, never ever thinking that Canada provided just as much in money. While resource was not overly available from Canada, funds were in the tune to a $billion gift.
Honoring you for all you do. Susie from Bluegrass Land. I have never seen this many thumbs down. Too bad folks dont know it still raises the points for the channel.
The biggest error Goering made and perhaps imo the chief reason the RAF made it through was: The Luft would launch its fighters up and protect the bombers as they took off and gathered into their fleets... thus using up a huge amount of fuel. What they should have done is had a much smaller force of fighters designated as cover for this build up... the bombers are escorted part way by this smaller force, then the main real fighters that are to provide cover and go after the RAF fighters take off well after the bombing fleet and they catch up and have instead of 5-10 minutes of fuel over England, they have 30-50 minutes of fuel and that makes a huge difference when in battle. So many German fighters had to stop fighting and leave when perhaps they might have made real impact... and the RAF could stay up so much longer and chase those fleeing fighters leaving based solely on fuel concern.
HG didn't understand escorting, he made the 109's fly with the bombers instead of placed high above them, ideally in the sun. The bombers could see the fighters now but the fighters couldn't do anything
Also something I never understood is why not bait the RAF out with a staffel of 12 bombers escorted by 50-100 fighters, they could bomb airfields then.
#timeline what if the Chinese had decided to colonize the Americas before the Europeans? Plus, what if the Europeans had decided to colonize the Americas at the same time? And what if the Europeans had decided not to colonize the Americas at all and instead the Chinese colonized all of the Americas alone?
It wouldn't fit the world view of the Chinese who viewed china as the center of the earth, at best they'd send 2,000 or so people unto a doomed journey. Basically ancient china was too concerned with themselves to even bother having colonial ambitions across the Pacific.
There's a 4th scenario which is also the most likely, the luftwaffe wins the battle of Britain but the brits still refuse to surrender. The German high command considers sealion but ultimately doesn't act on it because it's navy and army can't agree on a tangible plan. The rest of the war then roughly pans out the same
The key thing to a German invasion accross the channel was always the royal navy. 15" gun battleships could fire about 19 miles. Any preventetive mine field would have to be 20 miles+ either side of the invasion area that means if the Germans attacked from Calais towards the area between Dover and Hastings they would have to lay mines fron Ostend to Folkestone and from the Somme estuary to Brighton. While under attack. Air superiority might have helped but that mine laying operation would have been very difficult to achieve.
Last time I checked, it's 20 miles from Pas de Calais, France to Dover, UK. So a 19 mile range means a lot! Compare that to the island of Manhattan, New York, about 13 1/2 miles in length. In June 1944, the Germans thought Ike would invade France along the SAME 20 mile route! But Ike chose to invade across the 80 miles from southern England to Normandy, on the 6th of June, 1944!
Like it did with Japanese in the Pacific? What exactly happened to HMS Repulse & HMS Prince of Wales. The luftwafee sank at least 30 Royal navy destroyers during ww2 imagine what would have happened in the English channel with 2000 bombers in range of any royal navy fleet that had no air cover, that's not even mentioning the U-boats and how many Royal navy warships they would sink. The Royal Navy and British army along with the French couldn't even stop the Germans landing in Norway.
Most successful squadron (kills for losses) = a polish one. "The No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron for example was not just the highest scoring of Hurricane squadron, but also had the highest ratio of enemy aircraft destroyed relative to their own losses" "Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry," wrote Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding, head of RAF Fighter Command, "I hesitate to say that the outcome of the Battle would have been the same."
00Billy : The Polish and Czech pilots all had far, far more flying experience than the average British pilot in 1940. Most of them had been flying since the mid 1930’s. All they lacked was good English language skills, and good radio discipline (neither essential once they actually got into a fight).
@@timonsolus no the only flying going on was in the Spanish civil war. Lots of pilots went..hoping to get some time/exp. Polish were orphaned eventually... which explains it "Research conducted by Gerald Howson after the collapse of the Iron Curtain showed that Poland was second, after the Soviet Union, in selling arms to the Republic. In the autumn of 1936, Poland was the only nation to offer arms to the Republic in any quantity, according to Howson. At the time, the Republic was in great need since the Nationalists were threatening Madrid"
Excellent piece. I am a big fan of the "what if" of history. For a future piece, What if Montgomery doesn't take command of 8th Army in time, El Alamein is a disaster, and Rommel, against his orders, takes Cairo and is sitting on the Suez Canal? Alexandria is denied as a base and the world experiences another of those "Yorktown Moments" when the world is turned upside down.
Thank you for an awesome video. I had honestly asked this question and I’m happy to see a professional assessment of it. I personally thought the same thing, it would have been impossible to invade England even with air superiority.
The scenario that is missing is the one where there was a German foothold that started to slow as it tried to spread out across southern England. At least one model suggests that the ridge of the North Downs would have held south of London.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 general dowding even said that he douted that the outcome of the battle would have been the same even the top british raf general said it
‘Had it not been for the magnificent work of the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same’ his quote
@@dovetonsturdee7033 you cant start denying it when even the raf commander said it because if britain lost this battle germany would Control over the skies and then they would have invaded britain
@@miedziany1004 Another huge assumption. That Germany 'would have' invaded Britain. Don't you, just possibly, think that the largest navy on the planet might just have had a part to play? There are, by the way, 2496 pilots recognised as having taken part in the Battle of Britain, of which 147 were Polish. You may choose to insult the contribution of the 'other' 2349. I choose not to, even if the Battle itself, despite subsequent legend, was not vital to the prevention of invasion.
Thank God they didn't.... we Germans have a sad past😞... but I can't change this.... In this days I am deeply convinced that Britain and Germany are the most important partners in Europe despite Brexit... sorry the French seems to be very selfish..... and with english we are connected with our Anglo-Saxon bloodline... ❤️🌹🇩🇪🇬🇧🏴
Thank you, German friend. We voted for Brexit because we were concerned about bureaucrats in Brussels we know nothing about being able to make rules which affect us. Personally, I hope your government goes nationalist again. As an Anglo-Saxon nationalist, it would make me happy to see my German motherland standing for her own wellbeing once again.
The phosphorus milk bottle bombs? The Finns did it first in the Winter War, 1938. Molotov Cocktail anyone? The panel is correct The Luftwaffe should have continued attacks on the military targets. Also the the 3 Luftwaffe command areas facing great Briton did Not coordinate air strikes. This enabled the RAF to move around assets as needed to blunt each attack individually. And yes, DROP TANKS FOR EVERYBODY, in the Luftwaffe. In-flight refueling would have been a plus, if available.
The man who ate white castles was about that, the Nazis had half the world and the japanese the other half but was played in the US. The map doesnt show a free england
@@typograf62 Germany in 1940 didn't have invasion barges of any kind. Canal barges from France and Belgium/Netherlands were gathered in Northern France.These however where not sea going in any shape or form only river types. No way would Germany get them anywhere near the coast when the British navy got into the channel. Snorkels were not fitted to U boats till late 1943 firstly to type 7c (the most common type) to type 9 and to newer vessels of type 21 and type 23.
The DDs on Gold beach were landed directly on shore because of the sea conditions, as were most of those on Juno. Those for Utah & Sword were launched, but very close inshore. Quite why those at Omaha were launched three miles from shore in 6 foot waves, sinking 27 of 29 almost immediately, should probably have been a question addressed to the people who made the decision.
never ceases to amaze me how Germanys 13 peace offers (yes THIRTEEN!) and complete cessation of all hostility which were dismissed out of hand by churchill and are never mentioned in documentary's and remain almost unheard of by the British public.
Why are you amazed? The so-called 'peace offers' were tantamount to surrender and left Germany free to terrorise the continent. Don't forget, Hitler's track record in keeping to treaties made his word worthless anyway.
So this scenario depends on Goering being competent, Germanys worst bomber in the battle being able to knock out every single chain home station, having magically discovered them all, after somehow surviving the fighter screen that was already pouncing them via aforementioned chain home system. Maybe if they used their elite bombers and not Hurri fodder.
Also the Germans had no idea of Dowding's command structure and never attacked the Sector Stations. You might just as well say that if the Germans had had the A-bomb we would probably have lost.
@@Dav1Gv Imagine for a moment they had discovered the sector stations? Knocking those out would have been plausible way to limit the RAF's ability to respond.
@@bigbrowntau I take your point, that would have been bad but (as history showed) it wouldn't have been easy to knock them all out and - very important - keep them knocked out to gain complete control of the air. Without this I doubt if the Luftwaffe could have stopped our navy killing a lot of the invasion barges and - again very important - the follow up waves and supplies. I grant if the Germans had got ashore in strength they would have probably gone through our forces like a hot knife through butter (just as the Spanish army would have done in 1588 if they could have linked up with the Armada). History isn;t always on the side of the big battalions.
@@Dav1Gv Yes totally agree, they wouldn't have stayed knocked out for too long. The hardest part of replacing them would have been installing new phone lines, and finding surviving trained personnel. Also agree the RN would have made mincemeat of the barges, but if for some reason they'd made it ashore in strength, it would have been a real fight...until it came to resupply for the Germans.
@@bigbrowntau We seem to be in broad agreement but, of course, counter-factual history is always interesting. What if Prince Albert had died in the carriage accident and so wasn't around to calm down the politicians over the Trent issue? War with the US, Confederate victory, four (Churchill thought five because no one would have wanted the Mormons) in what is now the US, certainly no monolithic US to enter WW1 in 1917, supplies for Germany from lands taken from Russia, no need for the Germans to launch the Kaiser's offensive in 1918. Could Britain and France have broken through the Hindenburg line? Some sort of compromise peace? Better or worse than what happened?
Ah, geez. "Britain standing alone." Oh, plus some French and Poles. Yeah, I wish someone had told my grandfather from Canada back at the end of 1940, and all the Australians and Indians and South Africans and Jamaicans and New Zealanders and Nigerians, etc., etc., etc., that Britain was "standing alone". They call could have gotten on the next ship home five years early, gone home to their wives and children, started eating all the food they were shipping to Britain, and gotten back to building cars and new-fangled TVs instead of ships, tanks, and planes. Wish you'd told us all earlier you were "standing alone", that would have been nice.
How many Commonwealth troops do you think were in Britain at the time of the invasion threat? Actually, one Canadian division and three Australian/New Zealand brigades. That's all. If your understanding of 1940 is so lacking that you really don't know this then perhaps you need to do a little more reading.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 That "one Canadian division" was the only fully-armed division on the entire island of Great Britain after the great contribution to German arms the slapdash retreat from Dunkirk amounted to. You want to talk about "standing alone"? Try that on for size.
@@loneprimate Don't get so worked up. However wonderful the Canadian Division was, it was still only one division, after if had been withdrawn through St. Malo by the Royal Navy as part of Operation Cycle in mid June, 1940, along with 52nd Lowland. 3rd British, already re-equipped was preparing to sail to Cherbourg when General Weygand informed his 'allies' that the French army was no longer able to offer organised resistance. Thus, it was not the only fully equipped division, was it? Not that this is relevant, as by the time the Germans were even theoretically in a position to attempt an invasion, mid September, 1940, there were 34.5 operational divisions in Britain, of which 32.5 were British. Indeed, in mid August, the British had felt strong enough to send a large troop convoy to North Africa. Before you get so agitated, why not try finding out a few facts?
@@dWFnZWVr Yes, and credit to the Poles for their above average number of victories. They were terribly keen on fighting the Germans and proving that while Germany occupied Poland, Poland was not yet defeated. The Battle was mostly fought by the British, but Britain never stood completely alone.
Please do what if operation unthinkable happened next! :) This was a very interesting episode. I feel like if Germany did invade Britain then guerilla warfare would be an ongoing problem for the Germans like how it was in France. The Germans would have to try and hold down all this territory in Britain meanwhile having to fend off the royal navy from isolating the invasion force. Very intriguing to think if Germany could of actually successfully conquered Britain or not.
if they could see the way Britain is today I wonder if they would still of fought and the way there grand children are treated after two world wars we were promised it would be a land fit for heroes my god look at it
they fought and died for their homeland as it was back in 1939-45. especially after civilian lives were lost in the air raids. total war, it was personal, no political agenda. the same as any would do now to protect their family without a second thought of what might be, in 75 years in the future,
Try the land of the free where half the population are regarded. Health care is only good fore the poor and. Way too expensive for the middle class at $15,000 a year. You have never had it so good I would sway places with you any time.
@Doveton Sturdee The producers of this show need to hire YOU as a consultant! Your insight and knowledge is fascinating. Have you written any books on this or any other subject? I'd like to read them!
Yes, I have. Mainly WW2 naval history & Operation Sealion, but obviously I wish to retain my anonymity so regretfully I don't feel able to name them. Sorry!
One thing not taken into account right at the beginning. Fighter Command wasn't solely reliant on radar for spotting incoming attacks. There was also the Observer Corps dotted around the country also relaying information to FC HQ. Yes, they wouldn't have got the info as quickly and some of the airfields closer to the channel may well have been destroyed, but it wouldn't have meant the total lose of the RAF and we could still have put up enough resistance to still delay/postpone Operation Sealion. RADAR also only looked out to sea, so once over land, FC were reliant on the Observer Corps to keep them informed of the bombers movements and changes in course.
IMHO Germany's best bet would have been a negotiated armistice. Germany was never a resource monster, and the toll invasion & occupation would have taken would have seriously depleted their war machine. As a bonus, with England out of the picture, there's a near certainty America would have stayed out of the European theater.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 which one would you like ... ww1 or 2 he was involved in both did you forget he was the mastermind of the failed Gallipoli campaign
@@grumpyoldman-21 My Grandad was involved in WW1 & my father involved in WW2. Were they warmongers as well? Actually, he didn't mastermind the Gallipoli campaign. He proposed it, but had no authority to initiate it. The authorisation came from the Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith. He didn't plan it, either, the planning was undertaken by the British & French military and naval commands.
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The best way ill P Loop mop and I am Pol Mil to lget llama lol
The real game changer would have been for no battle of Britain any fight at all gives Germany a loss in Russia. Avoiding an industrial beat from bombing and a loss of air craft is the only thing that gives him a win against Russia. Like any lend lease was ever paid back to the U S. By any Country. That was the hope of the U.S Bankers that pushed the U.S. into the war.
@@mathieuditchburn1430
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Wow didn’t know joe Thomas was into history , a inbetweener is a history buff 💪 love it
ooo friends! haha
i think he did history at cambridge..?
@@italianstallion9170 He comes across as very well educated!
Yeah, I was just listening to the introduction on headphones without looking and though 'haha, "Joe Thomas", that's the same name as that actor.... wait, actual Joe Thomas, cool!'
Turns out he’s the briefcase after all 😂
Many alternative histories seriously underestimate the Royal Navy. That was where Britain's true military strength lay. Her army was small compared to most European countries, though highly professional. The Royal Nacy was still the most powerful in the world at that time. Even with air superiority by the Luftwaffe, invading Britain would have posed an immense challenge - the Channel is a very significant natural barrier, and in defense of Britain, the Royal Navy would have thrown everything it had into the battle. The German Kriegsmarine was small by comparison - Germany was a land power, not a maritime one. In fact she did not really have the naval capacity to carry her army across the Channel, the flotilla being assembled for Operation Sealion included many adapted civilian ships. Transporting heavy equipment would have posed an even bigger problem. The British Navy could have inflicted tremendous losses - and of course, the Royal Airforce would still have existed and again, would have thrown every available fighter into the battle.
Spot on
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Yes, but this is an alternate history in which Britain lost. Surely that means the Navy was beaten conclusively
Ships were outdated by WWII as was conclusively demonstrated by both the sinking of the prince of wales as well as of bismark.
Having control over the sky is the very definition of total victory. The English navy would have been bombed into oblivion. There is no way the English navy even makes it into battle, let alone the channel. It would have been suicide.
It is fairly accepted that Operatoon Sealion has no chance of success even if the Germans had won the Battle of Britain. Military experts from Britain and Germany set up an extensive wargame in the 1970s and the outcome was that while Germany could have landed some divisions very quickly they would have been cut off and forced to surrender.
You mean like what happened going the other way on d day?
@@StoutProper The Western Allies had vast superiority in the air and at sea in 1944. The Germans had neither in 1940.
@@StoutProper Everything was different on D Day . Lots of landing craft of all types . Germany had almost nothing for an assault on an enemy held coast . They had no way of getting a tank onto a beach .
The Royal Navy would have done terrible damage. It's a pity they didn't attempt it. A bit of payback for Dunkirk.
@@michellebrown4903 they wouldn’t do terrible damage now 😂
@@StoutProper. What have you been drinking?
Did you ever research the landing craft on D Day as opposed to what was available to the German army?
Many experts have considered this question over the years. As others have mentioned, it has been wargamed extensively, and the overwhelming conclusion is that it would have ended in disaster for the Germans. They did not have a practical plan for the invasion, they did not have the sealift capacity (or experience) and they did not have the airlift capacity either to transport supplies to their invasion force even IF they managed to get ashore. They treated it like a big river crossing - but the channel currents mean that they would have had to spend 18 hours in flat bottomed barges - The RN - which had a massive MASSIVE numerical superiority (I think young people today do not appreciate how huge the superiority was back then) would have raced through the invasion barges like wolves - even the wake of the destroyers would swamp the low freeboard barges. At night time the luftwaffe could do nothing. During the day the RAF reserves would be brought down from the north to protect the RN - and actually the luftwaffe statistically were not very successful at attacking manoeuvering high speed destroyers (see Dunkirk - the ones that got sunk were stationary) - oh and they had virtually no torpedo attack ability. Even if they did attack, chances are the RN destroyers and MGBs and MTBs would be amongst the German barges and troops so they would be bombing also their own. The RN captains knew full well the stakes and wrote letters home stating that they would sacrifice themselves if necessary.
So, even if they got ashore - what then? Suffering from exposure, seasickness, loss of equipment they have to assault pre- prepared defensive positions with light weaponry, and local forces with heavy weapons would converge on them.
The barges that took them there (if any survive) would have to spend 18 hours or so going back - while under attack - load up the second wave / supplies and make the same journey back.
The JU52 transport fleet just wasn't enough to supply any decent force by air. This also means capturing a (well defended) airfield, so often touted as a "gotcha" solution, means nothing really.
The wargames mentioned - the ONLY way any German force actually landed was by "cheating" and magically moving the RN out of the way for 48 hours. Even then the German force was totally defeated within days.
It was never going to happen - and the German commanders knew it really. They were hugely relieved when the plan was abandoned!
A lot of typing for a lot of BS
@@MazzBCD Thanks for your input. I would suggest you have a read about the subject in depth.
@@gediredi2 Dunno why you got that reaction above Ged, I thought your analysis/description was good.
@@frostyrobot7689 Friedrich is evidently a Wehraboo
You may be right, certainly valid points. That being said, the French army was in many respects as strong or stronger than the German army in late 1939 on paper, and I'd imagine there weren't many war games that would have predicted a complete French collapse to the Germans in a matter of weeks to minimal German losses.
In light of that, and a feeling that nothing is guaranteed in war, I can never quite convince myself that the outcome of a German invasion could be predetermined. If anyone has book recommendations on the topic I'd find those very interesting.
Simons done well for himself after Carly left him I see
Simon must have done really well in his A levels
Simon and Will both went to Cambridge in real life, they're definitely clever clogs
Ooooooo friend!
Two words: Royal Navy.
Exactly, the navy would have absolutely obliterated any landing force coming over.
@@joeynyesss1286 and the uboats would have sunk some of them. The Allies successfully kept most of them out of the Channel crossings in 44-45.
@@donaldball9265which uboats? There were not near enough boats to do even a smidge of damage to the home fleet as early as 1940
Bring back the RN!
@@joeynyesss1286 not summaries or uboat
If we lost; Britain would be far more British today.
Certainly much quieter, what with certain groups being exterminated, and much of the civilian population deported for use as slave labour in the fatherland.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 really, explain that to me!!
@@JonnyHolms Simply look at what happened in, for example, France after occupation. You think Britain could have expected less draconian treatment?
I think even if the Nazi's landed across the channel, maintaining a supply line through would have been extremely difficult. The logistics alone would have been a gargantuan and impractical task.
L li oi oip
With what to bother their lines of supply? The Royal Navy would have been the next victim of the bombing attack to destroy their ports, fuel depots,repair yards, The Royal Navy would have had to fight with only the ammunition they had sailed with the U Boats and the German Air Forces would have forced them to sail to Canada and plan to defend from there .
That is so SO true, I recon........................
@@antoniolobo2514 ch
Wouldn't matter, they didn't have the supplies to send across the channel😉
It was mentioned that the British were "supposed to have had bombs which when dropped on water would spread fire". There were such bombs in World War II. They were called, "napalm". And, they are horrible. Signed, A Vietnam veteran.
WW2 napalm had to be ignited by explosive bombs & would be useless in water.
@@anti-Russia-sigma Technicality that would have been mastered.
That Phosphorous bomb brought back a great memory. My grandfather used to tell a story about a day where the home guard had been training with them in the sand pits and left one behind which the local children (incl him) got hold, anyway upon ignition they panicked and tried to put it out with their shoes first and then their jackets. He said his father was furious but when the local policeman came by he had brought with him a new pair of shoes for him. Different times then.
When you say 'the sand pits', do you mean Horsell, Woking, Surrey?
@@mikeycraig8970 No the local sand pits at the time, in bunham on crouch Essex.
I used to play with nukes and alligators when I was a kid. And that was only in the 80's. You'd never see a kid playing with nuclear device these days, not even a simple tactical one. I'm not sure about alligators... probably not. It's all health and safety gone mad.
Fortunately, the Chain Home system was very difficult to knock out from the air. The Stukas gave their all, but they only knocked out a few stations, and they were back online in hours or days.
Adjacent stations could just temporarily increase and adjust their coverage to cover a gap in the chain.
@@PORRRIDGE_GUN - Yes, Chain Home and Chain Home Low were remarkable systems for their time. Although from what I've read, it looks like the operators needed a lot of skill to distinguish an incoming raid from the usual clutter and noise. Rather like an old-fashioned "fish-finder," where all you see is a little yellow band that might be a fish or not. I suspect that the secrets of RDF were so tightly protected, historians will never know all the details. Rather like how I was taught that the first digital computer was ENIAC in 1947, when now we know it was the Heath Robinson contraptions built at Bletchley Park.
CHH & CHL were clumsy, Heath Robinson-esque affairs, but when used correctly and data analysed in command centres they were vital. The Germans went down the road more of airborne detection and interception radar and blind flying landing and bombing aids, whilst the British thought about a warning system for the entire East and South Coasts. Technology vs employment. By war's end though, the breadth, sophistication and varied employment of allied radar systems meant many defied obsolescence for another 20 years or more
@@pacificostudios There were firing solution computers on battleships. I don't know where they sit in computational history but they were a happening thing even before Bletchley.
The Germans didn't fully realise the importance of the radar network otherwise they would have gone after them as a higher priority.
Also, the JU87s suffered high losses and were withdrawn on Goring's order, this contributed to fewer attacks on these instillations.
The Luftwaffe intelligence service was generally inept and played a significant part in the RAF success.
Ain’t nobody back then sniping out to a mile. Even a British one at 1700yards. The longest recording of a sniper kill up to the point of WW2 was Billy Dixon in 1864 at 1406m or 1538yds. Things definitely have come a long way since then with the use of modern arms, optics, ammo and ballistic devices. Current record is at 3540m or 3871 in May 2017 by a sniper with JTF-2 Canadian Armed Forces. Done with a 338 Lapua Magnum in Iraq. Interestingly it took around 10 seconds of bullet flight to hit his target. A immensive feat of the snipers skill and skills of his observation team.
10 am ones of bullet flight? You’ve been playing too much cod son
What…I only understand English…
@@StoutProper damn autocorrect, fixed it to 10seconds of bullet flight. As far as COD, Naah I just spent 3 decades doing the real thing in the US Army.
@@redfernsoljah I always think someone is lying when they claim to be an ex servicemen. It's a real shame people pretend they served in the military. Not saying you're lying.
@@Joe-og6br ehh whatever. I’ve done my time. Don’t care what other believe. Airforce air cargo 91-2000 then Army till 2014 combat medic. Retired medical 2014 combat injuries from a deployment. My scars are enough for me. Don’t need a thank you for your service to bolster me. I know what I’ve done.
Still not sure Sea Lion would work. D-Day was a logistical nightmare that needed almost divine intervention to be pulled off and had more than 300,000 personal involved
People severely underestimate just how complex amphibious assaults (and the stages that come afterwards) actually are. Conquering Britain was almost impossible for Germany in 1940/41 and CERTAINLY impossible in the years that followed.
It was never going to happen. Germany did not have the resources. Bomber command and Coastal command and naval air assets were still available. They had no landing craft, they had barges . Good luck with that.
The RN would have had a field day .
@@Haanicoos Yeah I agree, i can't comprehend some people even entertaining the idea of occupying Britain. Sure, Germany dominated on land but it was a sudden strike with no preparation on the opposition and on LAND. Given the time needed to prepare an amphibious assault, ready the supply lines AND deploy countermeasures to the royal navy would have been catastrophic for holding territory already gained and would have required far too much of German intelligence and resources and hindered all other war fronts. Basically a suicide mission which war with the rest of Europe was anyway, but much faster.
@@NinjamonkeySam Also troops need training for amphibous landings even then it may not work. The US and UK were highly experience in naval warfare by 1944 and even they near lost it at anzio and D-Day.
Lucky Britannia was no longer connected to the mainland of Europe . It broke away in a sort of flooding after the last ice age when the ice sheets melted and what is now the English channel was 0nce land connected to mainland Europe . Saved by geography .
The Irish Sea, North Sea and the Channel were all dry land, albeit land slowly being submerged as sea levels rose. But it wasn't until 6.000 BC that Britain broke free of mainland Europe for good, during the Mesolithic period - the Middle Stone Age
Subsequent changes in sea level at the end of that ancient ice age further confirmed its insularity, and Britain's connection to mainland Europe was lost.
Can you imagine had the former ancient landscape not changed , the black shirts and union of fascists under Sir Oswald Mosley would have been made head of the Britische gov. Gin Gin All is well and fair in love and war eh
Hitler’s early successes were basically because he analyzed the WW1 trenchwar stalemate and engineered around it using a combination of new tank & aircraft technologies. But he was a one-trick pony that didn’t listen to his generals. His poor decision to attack Russia killed him.
No, it was British strategists, Liddell-Hart came up with the idea of massed Tank formation in the early 20s. As H G Wells came up with the Ironclads, early tanks in his scientific romances. It could have all gone badly wrong with the traffic jam of the German army in the Ardennes in 1940, if the Allied air forces had not missed it.
Yep he started out great. But he should've annihilated the French/ British at Dunkirk. He should've fired Goering. He should have had nothing to do with Mussolini.....
The decision to attack Russia was the only rational decision at Germany's disposal
@@thedave8097
So you’re saying you sign a nonaggression pact with somebody, they don’t attack you and then you attack them because you have to… M’kay…fr
@Skyprince27 Yes, conflict between Russia and Germany was innevitable. But the main factor was that Germany would only realistically have fuel supplies for their tanks for only 1-2 years had they not invaded Russia. That wouldn't have been enough to win the war against the allies, let alone a prolonged war against a prepared Russia.
The British had RADAR but home advantage meant they didn’t have to carry fuel to recross the channel like the Germans also they could easily rearm, the bullets lasted about 40 seconds. This is probably why in the fall of France the Germans had air superiority early on in the East whereas the British had superiority in the west.
Have. You watched the episode,? No radar left
According to historian James Holland, the ME109 had about 40 seconds of machine gun ammunition, Spitfires and Hurricanes had about 15 seconds each. At the time of the Battle of Britain, the 109 also had cannons, but there is some dispute as to how effective the latter were. To fit them into the 109, they had to make them smaller and reduce their power, thus making them less effective.
If we confronted Germany 1939 .invasion of Poland we had numerical advantage
@@Gwynbuck no endless bullets like movies lol
@@Gwynbuck the 15 seconds were 8 machine guns. The Grrman 40s were just two. The German Me109E's 20mm were plenty effective vs the RAFs aircraft of the time. The British would eventually up gun to 20mm cannons. The Germans would up gun to 30mm by wars end due to the allies usage of large 4 engine bombers.
I was rather hoping for something a bit more academic than a scenario of four uninformed people in a pub.
I call it sitting in "there" living room.
I don't think there's an intellectual between the four of them. Sadly, this is what has become of 'academia' these days.
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@@wlm7434 it’s literally 3 historians, how are they not intellectual
What do you mean by uninformed
Wolfenstein made an entire video game franchise based of ideas like this.
Not fully in the UK it didn't which I would love to see but we did get somewhat of an idea.
furtherland was a movie based on the same notion
Wolfenstein is great but it's more sci-fi than accurate alt history.
Al T I watched furtherland
Yeah Nazis take over the world because nobody could beat them and at the end of the game Nazis couldn't beat Blazkowicz. Logic level infinity.
It really hurts me to say, If we didn't lose the war, we certainly didn't win it,
This is, by far, the best channel on TH-cam. Granted, it takes a certain type to live this channel. But I could miss the end of the world by bit paying attention outside and going through all the videos on it :D keep it up, this is absolutely top notch documentary work.
Excellent discussion, something for everyone from those new to alternate history to the old hands chatting this for years. My Dad went "overseas" in '40 to serve in the artillery. They were tasked with home defence and later formed into a heavy artillery regiment for the ETO. Well described in Nicholson's book "More Fighting Newfoundlanders."
@si james hating on something enough to leave 50 comments and laugh at anyone who likes it makes you even bigger of a fan than they are :) how sad !!
Really interesting to muse over the potential turning points but it brings me back to my eternal gratitude to those brave resilient and selfless people who gave the ultimate sacrifice! May each and every one of them rest in peace ♥️
And now you're invaded by Afghans on dingies and have millions of settler invaders in your country. Still think you actually won?
Could we seriously have had more imagination by now ??😁
They fought bc Churchill felt Germany was getting too strong ...now look at London.
@@m.hughmungus121 I'm with you on that one and I'm a German American.The World Wars killed the best of the best of Europe and America to the glee of the globalists.
@@m.hughmungus121 I think we know which side you’d be on. Enjoy the Gulags brother.
Would’ve been a better place than now . My Nan and grandad was in the raf and was fuming on what this government has done to this country. Embarrassing
This is wonderful. Nice to see younger historians discussing this "What If" scenario.
It might nave been. However, one was an actor, and a second has no qualifications in modern or military history at all.
There is too much British Navy fawning. The United States and Japan showed how deadly planes were in the seas of WW2. For these historians ( not military strategists) to just dismiss control over the channel skies complimented by the german u boat fleets seems a tad silly.
@@The_ConqueeftadorLJ Yes. I have a cousin on my dad's side of the family who not only was a fighter pilot in Vietnam, but went onto become an astronaut. Now retired he ownes his own consulting business.
It should be an if only!
@@The_Conqueeftadorgood point but Germany did not have that much in the way of maritime strike aircraft. But yes you are right to some degree in my humble opinion
Germany didn't have the resources to take and *hold* Britain. Getting troops and supplies across the channel would have been tremendously difficult. Not to mention the Germans dragged multiple countries into the war. Not enough resource to fight so many fronts.
They could have if they didn't go into russia
@@judyparsons1333 not necessarily. Germany had no dedicated landing craft. Whoever didn't drown in the channel would be landing on barges already making things much more difficult to secure a beachhead which they would then have to hold. Not to mention the kriegsmarine would face the near impossible task of defending them from the Royal Navy. War games after the war estimated Germany would lose 60,000 men captured or killed after being encircled by the navy
@@cyanoticspore6785 Not only that they did not have the ships to protect the barges, also the would have to do deal with subs.
Your all missing the Royal Navy that would have blown them out of the water
One thing they didn't mention is the fact that the germans could've gotten a peace deal out of britian if they had crushed the British and french at dunkirk this would've forced britain to peace or even surrender... another way was Mosley if the Germans had waited a little longer with war then he could've gotten in power or committed a coup... and there's was also operation Green woch was invading Ireland or having them declare war on britain while the germans would've helped them defeat britain... or Germany could've focused on africa and the middle east then invade the soviets at right time with a lot of resources, and the most important thing the germans could've invaded the soviet also through the middle east into the oilfields of the soviets while also invading from europe, this way the soviets would've fallen bc they wouldn't have had oil their warmachine and logistics would've just collapsed without oil. And when the soviets had fallen in that point the germans would've become unstoppable bc they would've had almost all of the worlds resources and industry and they could've outproduced britain on every front within a year or 2 and in this scenario the battle of the rest of the world would've begun possible or the germans would've be happy with defeating britain or having peace with britain bc they would've been so big in power that they would've been an litteral world order without invading the rest of the world...
'When Napoleon lay at Boulogne for a year, with his flat bottom boats and his Grande Armée; he was told by someone - there are bitter weeds, in England'
Yes the British !
@@dsmith4658 q1qq
Thats when Napoleon was introduced to Earl Grey... :)
Thanks!
The knowledge from everyone is outstanding. Loved it, and alternative realities are always fun to explore.
This is bad history. The Nazis never had any plans to invade Britain.
Submersible tanks? Oh, come ON! Crossing a river underwater maybe, but crossing the channel?
I don't know what colour mushrooms you've been eating, but I'd stop eating them if I were you.
Agreed. This guy is supposed to be an expert? 🙄
As a WW2 enthuisiast allow me to interject. Yes, they were deployed. But they were, to put it mildly, useless. See the tanks were designed to be used in calm or near-calm waters, the channel with those waves? It wrecked them, the waterproofing was not designed for it.
Not intended for crossing the entire channel, deployed closed to shore. Like the floating tanks used at dday, but snorkelers vs floaters.
@@Whoami691 He dont say amphibious...he said" submersible". I dont quite know the tanks he is refering to. I dont know any tank WW2 that could travel underwater for that distance. ( And that depth)
I'd like to see a discussion of what would have happened if the Germans had won the First Battle of the Marne in WWI and occupied Paris. Would the allies have sued for peace? Would the Russian Revolution never have happened? Would the Edwardian Era continued?
i guess had that happened, Britain and Germany would have reconciled at some point
We'd probably see the EU formed in 1930 instead of 1950 if Germany won ww1
Lol
Idiots
I proper enjoyed that. Luke brought the heatttt! Great talk to watch
the battle of Britain wasn't Churchhill's main worry,
it was the battle of the Atlantic he worried about
Indeed, a lot of people still believe according to the beliefs of the time, then-influenced by inaccurate intelligence that had the British believing the Luftwaffe, and German aircraft production, to be far greater in number than they actually were. Reality was that, by the height of the Battle of Britain, British fighter production was out-pacing German fighter production three-to-one. While the battle in the air might have been tight with a slight advantage to the British, each British loss was FAR more rapidly replaced than each German loss - this all the more so true among air crew as those from the R.A.F. who bailed out over or survived controlled crash landings in England were able to return directly to service. Had Karl Donitz, on the other hand, actually had the number of U-boats he'd "wanted" to have by the time war broke out, Britain might simply never have had the lifeline it needed to have, through that kind of U-boat armada, to buy the time it needed to achieve its technological advantage (most critically breaking the German code, innovating more modern anti-submarine tactics and technology, etc.).
Really? How well did you know him? Also../your comment is flawed in it's very premise, as you have inverted the timeline. The BofB was decided before the Atlantic really became center stage and critical. Yes it was underway, and yes a looming threat...but the immediacy of the air threat and it's follow-on invasion were the absolute priority and worry of the entire British command chain. Your comment is out of synch, simplistic and assumptive...without merit.
@@shielahaberecht3417 hhhhuuumm the bob started in sept 1940,the battle of the Atlantic started sept 1939 ..roughly ...
plus the british knew what was coming from the experience of ww1 ..
which would you be more worried about ...
a few bombs or starvation ...
ps ...churchill stated it himself ...
it's all on the internet if you bother to look
@@grumpyoldman-21 Irrelevant...Summer 1940 was all-consuming air war and threat of invasion. The Atlantic was a sideshow for those months. Hardly matters if they were conquered and occupied. Get a grip...
For one thing, the streets would be safer for children
That rather assumes that the master race would allow their inferiors to breed?
Quite an interesting discussion, My Father(a Dunkirk survivor) always believed that had The Germans Landed they would have had an easy time of it, Morale was low and the so called "Free" forces were in the same boat as the British army with all the heavy equipment left behind in Europe.
The Royal Navy while very large was spread around the globe and protecting possessions in other parts of the world. Following the proviso of this talk, with a severely weakened Army, a destroyed RAF, would the British be happy to suffer severe damage to its last functioning service or do what Vichy France did and relocate to say Canada, with the Royal Family/Cabinet and the Gold reserves that had already left the country? that seems more than likely.
There was a mention of 3 Thousand Fallschirmjager and no doubt more would be available in training, if they had landed and managed to occupy a smallish port, a invasion of some kind may have been possible, and as for the Home Guard not even a consideration.
I suspect there may have been a resistance by a few blowhards but the British are a practical and well disciplined people (Just like the Germans) and when they saw that resistance was futile it would of ceased. (It Never happened in the Channel Islands}
The most likely scenario would of been a realisation by the British that "Terms" of some sort where needed as the hope of "Empire Troops" rescuing Britain was more a pipe dream then a reality, and unlikely to happen.
The other alternative is a face off as in the time of the Napoleonic wars and the hope of Russia may have become involved (and did) and fought back and won the war.
Would America and its isolationist policy have entered the war,maybe but how would it have hit back at Germany and its Allies,would be the main problem.with the UK occupied, there is no jumping of point to fight from.
Had Britain been occupied unless there was a resistance it would have been a benign occupation, and a puppet government soon established ( and it would have had a lot of support from the Elites, more so I think then many would believe.)
Speech by SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Richard Darre - 1940
Richard Darre’s infamous speech made in 1940, detailed the fate of the British people, and makes chilling reading.
“As soon as we beat England we shall make an end of you Englishmen once and for all. Able- bodied men and women between the ages of 16 and 45 will be exported as slaves to the Continent. The old and weak will be exterminated.
All men remaining in Britain as slaves will be sterilised; a million or two of the young women of the Nordic type will be segregated in a number of stud farms where, with the assistance of picked German sires, during a period of 10 or 12 years, they will produce annually a series of Nordic infants to be brought up in every way as Germans.
These infants will form the future population of Britain. They will be partially educated in Germany and only those who fully satisfy the Nazi’s requirements will be allowed to return to Britain and take up permanent residence. The rest will be sterilised and sent to join slave gangs in Germany.
Thus, in a generation or two, the British will disappear.”
If the Germans had landed every man woman and child available would have fought them, with sticks and stones if necessary.
@@mogznwaz Congratulations you have just won that prize that no one really wants to win but is handed out by TH-cam which is "The most silliest and stupidest comment that has no real relevance or meaning".
Well done.
Atlantic convoys were short of escorts initially, because those ships were held back to counter any invasion [allegedly].
The Germans may well have had an easy time of it because of the lack of weaponry the British had to fight back with. My father's large group of Local Defence Volunteers (later renamed Home Guard) had one rifle and no bullets between all of them. After Dunkirk the rifle was requisitioned by the Army.
Among the elites, it was generally assumed that a German occupation was likely because there was a strong demand from well-to-do young ladies for German language tutors so they could improve their future marriage prospects.
Some residents of Southampton moved away from the city because 'those in the know' considered the immediate area one of the more likely invasion points for the Germans. The Isle of Wight and New Forest were poorly defended, with only small pockets of population, plenty of relatively easy access points and more favourable topography for moving rapidly inland than the Channel Ports. The most significant military asset in the area, Portsmouth, could be neutralised simply by sinking a ship in the narrow entrance channel.
Why is the Republic of Ireland highlighted in the picture? Weren’t part of Britain during WW2?
This channel is amazing,!!
Have you thought about adding subs in other languages? My dad is a big fan of IIWW history and he would love all your content, unfortunately, he just speaks Catalan and Spanish
th-cam.com/video/YtOBtwSwzgk/w-d-xo.html按住！！ 剪輯內容即可固定該4ㄓ。系統會在 1 小時後執政者U未固定的項目。。
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耳
My dad loves history too thats how i got into it when i was a kid.I hope they add subtitles so your dad can enjoy it too.Thats really awesome u get to watch it with him.I miss doing that with my dad.
@@ghostman3398 one thing missing, the battle of Narvik, the German lost so many ships, crossing the Channel they had no chance, Also the topography of the UK.
Make subtitles for him😊
Great video!! Very thought-provoking
This is another question that I had when they said Churchill could've become another de Gaulle if he escaped to America: what would have happened to people like Charles de Gaulle who had escaped the German invasion of France?
He would have escaped to Canada and tried to rally The Commonwealth and The United States to fight the Axis.
He would have escaped to Canada, and Canada was the first stop for any members of the Royal Family who had escaped.
I recommend interviewing David Irving about this topic and reading his books as well.
Do you? I would recommend reading books by credible historians instead. Irvine seems to get most of his ideas from Volkischer Beobachter.
Yest, I have read some of his 'works', by the way. Especially his nonsense about Dresden, where his statistics were repeated almost word for word from Goebbels' propaganda claims.
Helping Carly with her revision has done Simon some good I see
There's a couple of things about this.
Firstly, although the Royal Navy would not necessarily have stopped an invasion... they only needed to clobber German logistics for a couple of days. The RN was vast. The Z-plan did not account for the RN building more ships to stay ahead of the Germans.
Also, the Luftwaffe did not have the experience or training to destroy a warship underway at sea whilst it is firing back.
The RAF never needed air superiority. They only needed to deny the same to the Luftwaffe.
Well said. I've long been an amateur student of alternative history. I dont think a German victory of BoB would change much, unless they did actually go ahead with sea lion (and a BoB victory doesn't mean Germany would have went through with it).
If they won BoB, I'd rate the odds of sea lion happening at maybe 15%
I'd rate the odds of s successful landing at less than 5 or 10%.
And the odds of a victory (or even hanging on) after 5 days at less than 1%. The morale of the troops after the defeat on the continent couldn't have been good (but you can't underestimate the Brits in that regard).
But, what I think is interesting is if a German BoB victory lead to Sea Lion and then the extreme likelihood of crushing defeat of the Germans--how would that impact Barbarossa? Would Hiltler have paused? How long. And would he rethought the ill advised declaration on the US? Or would he have taken the victory of BoB to ramp up the blitz and brought a strategic bombing campaign against Britain to make them pursue peace? Or would it have played out pretty much the same? Fun to think about with the distance of time.
This was fascinating. Well done to all involved
The impact of Germany gaining Britains industrial capacity would have been devastating for Germany’s other foes. The capacity aircraft, ship and arms manufacture would have enabled them to wipe the floor with the Russians…. They could have opened fronts from Norway to the Black Sea whilst having access to the Persian oil fields
In his memoirs, Churchill talked about the possibility of England's fall to the Germans. He had plans to extract the government of England to, I believe, Canada, and continue the struggle from there. He would not have been captured, and he would not have given up the fight. England still had her empire, and while he acknowledged that re-entering Europe from Canada would have been far more difficult, he was never going to give up. I would also like to point out that this was one of the brilliant points of the lend-lease program with America. Many critical islands and territories were "lent" to America in return for the war aid, most notably the badly-need destroyers. The idea was that even in England fell, those islands would be safely in American hands and could be used as forward bases by America against Germany. They would have been crucial to returning to Europe.
Yeah well ssid in the novel Fartherlsnd the a royals relocate to Canada for wot it’s worth
What if Harold had won the battle of Hastings?
We wouldn't be using the word 'battle' for a start.
Excellent scenario, but it would be interesting to see your 'take' on what would have happened if Harold had won the Battle of Hastings in IO66?
Do you know of any other historians who have taken on this question? I think it's in the top 10 "what if" questions.
As a Godwin, I'd defo watch it.
One thing is certain; Harold would have two eyes if he lived to win the battle!
I'd be interested to know what would have happened if England had never subjugated the Welsh, and never stole all of their mineral wealth, and siphoned all of the profits out of the country.
Excellent production and very informative 👍
So, the Luftwaffe gains temporary air superiority. All the Germans then need to do is get the nine divisions of their first wave to their landing beaches in modified Rhine barges towed, in cumbersome box formations, at little more than walking pace, in pairs, by tugs, trawlers, and small coasters. The Kriegsmarine estimated that this would require eleven days.
All the time this is going on, they are relying on the same Luftwaffe which had failed abysmally at Dunkirk to protect the barges from the seventy or so Royal Navy light cruisers and destroyers assembled as the RN's main anti-invasion force, backed up by around five hundred smaller warships.
Good luck!
I think you folks are a bit under the delusion as if Germany had failed in Dunkirk. That there had been plenty of other moments in which Germany had pinched off forces from their logistical supplies without issues in taking POW's. Fundamentally the Brits then had by and large been spared than defined that outcome purely on their own terms.
It wouldn't have been the Luftwaffe that would have been the RN's worry, more of a threat would have been a U-boat screen, and even then the U-boats wouldn't have it their own way.
@@travellingtim1 Not really. The Kriegsmarine hadn't the ability to put out any sort of U-Boat screen. In September 1940 they had an average of 13 boats only at sea on any one day.
Furthermore, the three boats which they sent into the Channel in October 1939 were all sunk at once without achieving anything.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 the perceived threat from U-boats would have been real though with the Royal oak being fresh in the memory....the reality though I guess would have been any U-boat screen being hunted to destruction within a couple of days. It's interesting to wonder though what an unopposed force of 200+ bombers could have done to the home fleet.
@@travellingtim1 The Home Fleet was at Rosyth, well out of range of anything other than unescorted bombers. Moreover, at the time, the Luftwaffe had not been trained in anti-shipping operations, resulting in their failure at Dunkirk. Furthermore, in the whole of the war, the Luftwaffe sank 31 RN destroyers, and no RN ship larger than a light cruiser. The Luftwaffe didn't even have a torpedo bomber until mid 1942.
Off topic but when Victoria said "Victorys are made up of thaosands of failiures" that hit me in the chest
Because of what a preposterous notion it is? Or for some other reason? It's like of like Trudeau's "if you kill your enemies, they win"
@@wlm7434. Agreed, totally left wide open to suggestions and here say. It’s a very loose term and victory is only won by being victorious in the operations in the theatre of war. You can’t have failure we’re victory is won, other wise the objectives would not be met and failure of victory would happen, so she is wrong as she used a loose vague term that clearly is self defeating !!!
True u can't learn it all the first time out...trial error is process of learning
The story forgets that the Canadian Army was trained and equipped and ready to be deployed at this time
Canadian army was miniscule. Would have helped but wouldn't have tipped the tides.
The canadians fought very well, and their part in the war is often overlooked, but the other guy is right, their army was too small to do that much
Yf fact c try retry try
@@metalheadgames5066
1 Million Canadians were mobilised during WW2!
@@dave8323 People always go on about the USA and funds they gave through the land/lease scheme, never ever thinking that Canada provided just as much in money. While resource was not overly available from Canada, funds were in the tune to a $billion gift.
I read that Germany would have had a lot of problems in logistics supporting the invasion force, the Channel is Britain’s best asset.
They would have had much greater problems getting their towed barges into and across the Channel in the first place.
Good video buddy. Your channel is creative, informative, entertaining, and a good example of the positive aspects of the internet. Cheers from Canada.
Honoring you for all you do. Susie from Bluegrass Land. I have never seen this many thumbs down. Too bad folks dont know it still raises the points for the channel.
8 wss
when you have something like the royal navy you won't sue for a peace treatty
Unless you're aboard Prince of Wales and Repulse.
Just curious, was the royal navy around when Chamberlain waved the Munich Agreement around and said something about "peace in our time"?
I mean, when all your colonys are taken you would
@@Wickedonezz good luck with that
@@1IbramGaunt Italy and Japan got extremely close
The biggest error Goering made and perhaps imo the chief reason the RAF made it through was: The Luft would launch its fighters up and protect the bombers as they took off and gathered into their fleets... thus using up a huge amount of fuel.
What they should have done is had a much smaller force of fighters designated as cover for this build up... the bombers are escorted part way by this smaller force, then the main real fighters that are to provide cover and go after the RAF fighters take off well after the bombing fleet and they catch up and have instead of 5-10 minutes of fuel over England, they have 30-50 minutes of fuel and that makes a huge difference when in battle.
So many German fighters had to stop fighting and leave when perhaps they might have made real impact... and the RAF could stay up so much longer and chase those fleeing fighters leaving based solely on fuel concern.
HG didn't understand escorting, he made the 109's fly with the bombers instead of placed high above them, ideally in the sun. The bombers could see the fighters now but the fighters couldn't do anything
Also something I never understood is why not bait the RAF out with a staffel of 12 bombers escorted by 50-100 fighters, they could bomb airfields then.
@@macoooos9204 The UK had radar and the ability to discern feints.
#timeline what if the Chinese had decided to colonize the Americas before the Europeans? Plus, what if the Europeans had decided to colonize the Americas at the same time? And what if the Europeans had decided not to colonize the Americas at all and instead the Chinese colonized all of the Americas alone?
I think about this a lot!!
Like what if the Japanese found South America a hundred years before Columbus :)
When were boats invented?
Noah's Arch??
🤯
It wouldn't fit the world view of the Chinese who viewed china as the center of the earth, at best they'd send 2,000 or so people unto a doomed journey. Basically ancient china was too concerned with themselves to even bother having colonial ambitions across the Pacific.
It would have been impossible to get a good Pakistani meal in London
It still is ;)
There's a 4th scenario which is also the most likely, the luftwaffe wins the battle of Britain but the brits still refuse to surrender. The German high command considers sealion but ultimately doesn't act on it because it's navy and army can't agree on a tangible plan. The rest of the war then roughly pans out the same
The key thing to a German invasion accross the channel was always the royal navy. 15" gun battleships could fire about 19 miles. Any preventetive mine field would have to be 20 miles+ either side of the invasion area that means if the Germans attacked from Calais towards the area between Dover and Hastings they would have to lay mines fron Ostend to Folkestone and from the Somme estuary to Brighton. While under attack.
Air superiority might have helped but that mine laying operation would have been very difficult to achieve.
Last time I checked, it's 20 miles from Pas de Calais, France to Dover, UK. So a 19 mile range means a lot!
Compare that to the island of Manhattan, New York, about 13 1/2 miles in length.
In June 1944, the Germans thought Ike would invade France along the SAME 20 mile route!
But Ike chose to invade across the 80 miles from southern England to Normandy, on the 6th of June, 1944!
The Royal Navy would have blown any invading armada out of the water.
L
Yep
We’d also still have our navy Air Force hopefully
Like it did with Japanese in the Pacific? What exactly happened to HMS Repulse & HMS Prince of Wales. The luftwafee sank at least 30 Royal navy destroyers during ww2 imagine what would have happened in the English channel with 2000 bombers in range of any royal navy fleet that had no air cover, that's not even mentioning the U-boats and how many Royal navy warships they would sink. The Royal Navy and British army along with the French couldn't even stop the Germans landing in Norway.
Not the united states navy.
Most successful squadron (kills for losses) = a polish one.
"The No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron for example was not just the highest scoring of Hurricane squadron, but also had the highest ratio of enemy aircraft destroyed relative to their own losses"
"Had it not been for the magnificent material contributed by the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry," wrote Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding, head of RAF Fighter Command, "I hesitate to say that the outcome of the Battle would have been the same."
00Billy : The Polish and Czech pilots all had far, far more flying experience than the average British pilot in 1940. Most of them had been flying since the mid 1930’s. All they lacked was good English language skills, and good radio discipline (neither essential once they actually got into a fight).
@@timonsolus no the only flying going on was in the Spanish civil war. Lots of pilots went..hoping to get some time/exp. Polish were orphaned eventually... which explains it
"Research conducted by Gerald Howson after the collapse of the Iron Curtain showed that Poland was second, after the Soviet Union, in selling arms to the Republic. In the autumn of 1936, Poland was the only nation to offer arms to the Republic in any quantity, according to Howson. At the time, the Republic was in great need since the Nationalists were threatening Madrid"
00Billy : I meant all flying, not just flying in combat. Training flights are important too.
Excellent piece. I am a big fan of the "what if" of history. For a future piece, What if Montgomery doesn't take command of 8th Army in time, El Alamein is a disaster, and Rommel, against his orders, takes Cairo and is sitting on the Suez Canal? Alexandria is denied as a base and the world experiences another of those "Yorktown Moments" when the world is turned upside down.
The crucial battle in North Africa was actually First Alamein in July, 1942, when Auchinleck took personal command of 8th Army and defeated Rommel.
Thank you for an awesome video. I had honestly asked this question and I’m happy to see a professional assessment of it. I personally thought the same thing, it would have been impossible to invade England even with air superiority.
Love it! Please do more what if scenarios!
Perhaps a more convincing panel would be desirable. A specialist in African history and an actor are hardly experts on the subject.
The scenario that is missing is the one where there was a German foothold that started to slow as it tried to spread out across southern England. At least one model suggests that the ridge of the North Downs would have held south of London.
Have you never even heard of the Riyal Navy, still less read of the anti-invasion forces the Admiralty had assembled by September, 1940?
@@3RJSMFC What do you mean? I'm guessing you are implying something xenophobic
No serious historian thinks the Nazis had any desire to invade Britain, the notion is preposterous
You can still see the remnants of pillboxes on Box hill !
And still even after 80 years people dont remember that the poles saved britain in this battle
Probably because they didn't. They made a contribution, but please don't try to make it more than it was.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 general dowding even said that he douted that the outcome of the battle would have been the same even the top british raf general said it
‘Had it not been for the magnificent work of the Polish squadrons and their unsurpassed gallantry, I hesitate to say that the outcome of battle would have been the same’ his quote
@@dovetonsturdee7033 you cant start denying it when even the raf commander said it because if britain lost this battle germany would Control over the skies and then they would have invaded britain
@@miedziany1004 Another huge assumption. That Germany 'would have' invaded Britain. Don't you, just possibly, think that the largest navy on the planet might just have had a part to play?
There are, by the way, 2496 pilots recognised as having taken part in the Battle of Britain, of which 147 were Polish. You may choose to insult the contribution of the 'other' 2349. I choose not to, even if the Battle itself, despite subsequent legend, was not vital to the prevention of invasion.
This was memorizing and fantastical. You and your guests are so well versed in history and eloquent in their delivery. Bravo.
Thank God they didn't.... we Germans have a sad past😞... but I can't change this.... In this days I am deeply convinced that Britain and Germany are the most important partners in Europe despite Brexit... sorry the French seems to be very selfish..... and with english we are connected with our Anglo-Saxon bloodline... ❤️🌹🇩🇪🇬🇧🏴
Thank you, German friend. We voted for Brexit because we were concerned about bureaucrats in Brussels we know nothing about being able to make rules which affect us.
Personally, I hope your government goes nationalist again. As an Anglo-Saxon nationalist, it would make me happy to see my German motherland standing for her own wellbeing once again.
Imagine if England had won the battle of Hastings. The English language would be much different today among many things.
English would likely sound more like Frisian or Dutch.
The phosphorus milk bottle bombs? The Finns did it first in the Winter War, 1938.
Molotov Cocktail anyone?
The panel is correct The Luftwaffe should have continued attacks on the military targets.
Also the the 3 Luftwaffe command areas facing great Briton did Not coordinate air strikes. This enabled the RAF to move around assets as needed to blunt each attack individually.
And yes, DROP TANKS FOR EVERYBODY, in the Luftwaffe. In-flight refueling would have been a plus, if available.
Great video ❤
If there’s a The Man In The High Castle season 5, it should be about how things went if Britain lost to the nazis in WWII
SS-GB a novel by Len Deighton
FATHERLAND a novel by Robert Harris
THE DIVIDE a novel by William Overguard
"It Happened Here"
"It took us six invasions and over a million dead men, but we finally got the UK!"
A book by a German that survived the sixth invasion of the UK.
The man who ate white castles was about that, the Nazis had half the world and the japanese the other half but was played in the US. The map doesnt show a free england
I didnt know Donegal was part of the UK!
4:53 "Underwater Tanks" pmsl- have you not seen the Sherman DD tanks which still lie of the normandy coast.
agreed, they lost me there. What bs.
Tanks with snorkels of some sort that could drive from a barge to the coast if the water was shallow. Not making a Channel crossing.
@@typograf62 Germany in 1940 didn't have invasion barges of any kind. Canal barges from France and Belgium/Netherlands were gathered in Northern France.These however where not sea going in any shape or form only river types. No way would Germany get them anywhere near the coast when the British navy got into the channel. Snorkels were not fitted to U boats till late 1943 firstly to type 7c (the most common type) to type 9 and to newer vessels of type 21 and type 23.
The DDs on Gold beach were landed directly on shore because of the sea conditions, as were most of those on Juno. Those for Utah & Sword were launched, but very close inshore. Quite why those at Omaha were launched three miles from shore in 6 foot waves, sinking 27 of 29 almost immediately, should probably have been a question addressed to the people who made the decision.
Great Britain saved the world, people need to know this.
never ceases to amaze me how Germanys 13 peace offers (yes THIRTEEN!) and complete cessation of all hostility which were dismissed out of hand by churchill and are never mentioned in documentary's and remain almost unheard of by the British public.
I'm from the States and I've never heard that either😉
@@shawndouglass2939 it is like there is a plan.
Why are you amazed? The so-called 'peace offers' were tantamount to surrender and left Germany free to terrorise the continent. Don't forget, Hitler's track record in keeping to treaties made his word worthless anyway.
So this scenario depends on Goering being competent, Germanys worst bomber in the battle being able to knock out every single chain home station, having magically discovered them all, after somehow surviving the fighter screen that was already pouncing them via aforementioned chain home system. Maybe if they used their elite bombers and not Hurri fodder.
Also the Germans had no idea of Dowding's command structure and never attacked the Sector Stations. You might just as well say that if the Germans had had the A-bomb we would probably have lost.
@@Dav1Gv Imagine for a moment they had discovered the sector stations? Knocking those out would have been plausible way to limit the RAF's ability to respond.
@@bigbrowntau I take your point, that would have been bad but (as history showed) it wouldn't have been easy to knock them all out and - very important - keep them knocked out to gain complete control of the air. Without this I doubt if the Luftwaffe could have stopped our navy killing a lot of the invasion barges and - again very important - the follow up waves and supplies. I grant if the Germans had got ashore in strength they would have probably gone through our forces like a hot knife through butter (just as the Spanish army would have done in 1588 if they could have linked up with the Armada). History isn;t always on the side of the big battalions.
@@Dav1Gv Yes totally agree, they wouldn't have stayed knocked out for too long. The hardest part of replacing them would have been installing new phone lines, and finding surviving trained personnel. Also agree the RN would have made mincemeat of the barges, but if for some reason they'd made it ashore in strength, it would have been a real fight...until it came to resupply for the Germans.
@@bigbrowntau We seem to be in broad agreement but, of course, counter-factual history is always interesting. What if Prince Albert had died in the carriage accident and so wasn't around to calm down the politicians over the Trent issue? War with the US, Confederate victory, four (Churchill thought five because no one would have wanted the Mormons) in what is now the US, certainly no monolithic US to enter WW1 in 1917, supplies for Germany from lands taken from Russia, no need for the Germans to launch the Kaiser's offensive in 1918. Could Britain and France have broken through the Hindenburg line? Some sort of compromise peace? Better or worse than what happened?
the germans simply didnt have the boats /ships to invade and the uk had the royal navy.
brilliant panel and host, they are all very engaging speakers.
Ah, geez. "Britain standing alone." Oh, plus some French and Poles. Yeah, I wish someone had told my grandfather from Canada back at the end of 1940, and all the Australians and Indians and South Africans and Jamaicans and New Zealanders and Nigerians, etc., etc., etc., that Britain was "standing alone". They call could have gotten on the next ship home five years early, gone home to their wives and children, started eating all the food they were shipping to Britain, and gotten back to building cars and new-fangled TVs instead of ships, tanks, and planes. Wish you'd told us all earlier you were "standing alone", that would have been nice.
How many Commonwealth troops do you think were in Britain at the time of the invasion threat? Actually, one Canadian division and three Australian/New Zealand brigades. That's all. If your understanding of 1940 is so lacking that you really don't know this then perhaps you need to do a little more reading.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 That "one Canadian division" was the only fully-armed division on the entire island of Great Britain after the great contribution to German arms the slapdash retreat from Dunkirk amounted to.
You want to talk about "standing alone"? Try that on for size.
@@loneprimate Don't get so worked up. However wonderful the Canadian Division was, it was still only one division, after if had been withdrawn through St. Malo by the Royal Navy as part of Operation Cycle in mid June, 1940, along with 52nd Lowland. 3rd British, already re-equipped was preparing to sail to Cherbourg when General Weygand informed his 'allies' that the French army was no longer able to offer organised resistance. Thus, it was not the only fully equipped division, was it?
Not that this is relevant, as by the time the Germans were even theoretically in a position to attempt an invasion, mid September, 1940, there were 34.5 operational divisions in Britain, of which 32.5 were British. Indeed, in mid August, the British had felt strong enough to send a large troop convoy to North Africa.
Before you get so agitated, why not try finding out a few facts?
Love this idea for a show. Taking things for granted is like an olympic sport these days.
The way he said "naughty" got me to stay.
Seeing how the UK is today, it probably would have been in a better condition...
The Battle of Britain was as large as the battle of Hastings. The Nazis would have had the same influence as the Normans if that happened.
Fabulous stuff !
I love whatiffery !
More please !
If the kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe played nice together, that would have been disastrous for the allies.
Britain will never surrounded to anyone ever. We even ended the viking age and stopped the roman empire in its tracks
Can't image routinely flying those amazing machines... much in in desperate combat. Beautiful birds for brave Brits!
Brave Australians Canadians polish Americans not just English was involved in the battle of England..
@@jeffreybamford7365 Battle of Britain though
@@jeffreybamford7365 The breakdown from the Battle of Britain:
British: 73.47%
Polish: 7.68%
Canadian: 4.80%
Czech: 4.70%
Kiwi (New Zealand): 4.00%
Belgian: 1.38%
Australian: 1.15%
South African: 1.15%
Free French: 0.67%
Rhodesian: 0.10%
Irish: 0.43%
American: 0.32%
Barbadian: 0.05%
Jamaican: 0.05%
Palestinian: 0.05%
@@dWFnZWVr Yes, and credit to the Poles for their above average number of victories. They were terribly keen on fighting the Germans and proving that while Germany occupied Poland, Poland was not yet defeated.
The Battle was mostly fought by the British, but Britain never stood completely alone.
Some brave germans also.
Great show. Thanks guys.
Please do what if operation unthinkable happened next! :)
This was a very interesting episode. I feel like if Germany did invade Britain then guerilla warfare would be an ongoing problem for the Germans like how it was in France.
The Germans would have to try and hold down all this territory in Britain meanwhile having to fend off the royal navy from isolating the invasion force.
Very intriguing to think if Germany could of actually successfully conquered Britain or not.
In a surface action, tge RN had the numerical advantage.
if they could see the way Britain is today I wonder if they would still of fought and the way there grand children are treated after two world wars we were promised it would be a land fit for heroes my god look at it
Alan I am not sure what you re talking about. How is Britain today and how are their grand children being treated?????
i dont think they would as we are losing the west country by country
so get ready 4 another WAR Very soon
they fought and died for their homeland as it was back in 1939-45. especially after civilian lives were lost in the air raids. total war, it was personal, no political agenda. the same as any would do now to protect their family without a second thought of what might be, in 75 years in the future,
@@frankcorner8716 frank to ask that question you must be living in a bubble
Try the land of the free where half the population are regarded. Health care is only good fore the poor and. Way too expensive for the middle class at $15,000 a year. You have never had it so good I would sway places with you any time.
@Doveton Sturdee The producers of this show need to hire YOU as a consultant! Your insight and knowledge is fascinating. Have you written any books on this or any other subject? I'd like to read them!
Yes, I have. Mainly WW2 naval history & Operation Sealion, but obviously I wish to retain my anonymity so regretfully I don't feel able to name them. Sorry!
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Well keep up the god work anyway!
@@dovetonsturdee7033 would you be willing to email me your works?
@@wrath2008 No. In common with everyone else on here I use nom-de-plume.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 I figured it would've been better privacy wise since you could use a tempmail. Oh well. Uh lastly, Nom-de-plume?
very enjoyable
The beer 🍺 would definitely taste better.
You are confused. It wasn't Belgium trying to invade Britain.
We won the battle but lost the war,,,
Why does the thumbnail have Ireland color coded in red on the Map on the thumbnail when its not part of Britain?
Presumably, in this scenario, Ireland was also taken by the Germans
It's part of the British Isles whether we like it or not.....
One thing not taken into account right at the beginning. Fighter Command wasn't solely reliant on radar for spotting incoming attacks. There was also the Observer Corps dotted around the country also relaying information to FC HQ. Yes, they wouldn't have got the info as quickly and some of the airfields closer to the channel may well have been destroyed, but it wouldn't have meant the total lose of the RAF and we could still have put up enough resistance to still delay/postpone Operation Sealion.
RADAR also only looked out to sea, so once over land, FC were reliant on the Observer Corps to keep them informed of the bombers movements and changes in course.
ROC's contribution is very under-appreciated. They worked in 1940 and in 1944 (against the V1s).
They wouldnt have invaded britain either away because of the royal navy
As a child at school in the war we were taught on fridays how to destroy Gerry tanks with milk bottle bombs.
That sounds like a very fun class in all honestly.
Why'd they stop teaching it.
as a school kid in 1940,i can not think of anybody who thought we would loose ww2
@@fredharper1539 Which country was this from?
IMHO Germany's best bet would have been a negotiated armistice. Germany was never a resource monster, and the toll invasion & occupation would have taken would have seriously depleted their war machine. As a bonus, with England out of the picture, there's a near certainty America would have stayed out of the European theater.
if Chamblin stayed in power that may have had a slim slim chance of happening,
except Churchill came to power and he was a warmonger
@@grumpyoldman-21 Exactly how was Churchill a warmonger? Which war did he 'monger?'
@@dovetonsturdee7033
which one would you like ...
ww1 or 2
he was involved in both
did you forget
he was the mastermind of
the failed Gallipoli campaign
@@grumpyoldman-21 My Grandad was involved in WW1 & my father involved in WW2. Were they warmongers as well?
Actually, he didn't mastermind the Gallipoli campaign. He proposed it, but had no authority to initiate it. The authorisation came from the Prime Minister, Herbert Asquith. He didn't plan it, either, the planning was undertaken by the British & French military and naval commands.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 as to your grandfathers ...
well they where just servents to the crown
This was terrific !