"If some one were to obtain all weapons it's very unlikely they would go through the free route." They would pay to get an expanded backpack, but they would not buy weapons. If you look back on your early memories of TF2, you would know that it's not the weapons themselves, but the limited backpack that makes people pay. The constantly shrinking space is why people spend two dollars. Also, I strongly dislike seasonal challenges. That is all.
I disagree with you about this consider that i have 9 backpack space without spending beside valve already give you free backpack every christmas but yeah the mute for f2p however
Yeah, that's what pushed me back in the day (2012/2013), I just bought the cheapest thing on the mann co store from what I remember (I had no clue about trading). However, I think you didn't get backpack expanders for christmas back then unlike today, but I could be wrong.
I played TF2 for 2 years without spending a cent and I was able to get all the weapons even though my backpack expanders all came from the christmas updates.
I'm surprised you didn't mention how the inventory only has limited slots, leaving players (mostly f2p) to have to buy more slots to avoid their inventory being capped by Item duplicates and crates.
In fairness if you saved an entire backpack of crates combined you could probably get the 5 bucks. Granted that is absolutely hell to individually sell
im honestly shocked that valve doesn't let you restore deleted achievement items that *AREN'T* tradeable & marketable. things like gibus & spellbooks. or even restoring item cosmetics as untradeable. this SHOULD be a thing!
@@Cynidecia Yeah usually they do this cause "people were using it to try and one up the system" aka steam support is bad and accidentally gave people free unusuals instead of their restored hat somehow, and used that as an excuse and ran with it.
I think one of the bigger issues with TF2 is the complacency that the community figureheads are with the issues the game has, and trying to silence or other those who show criticism towards the game. While I have my issues with people like Zesty Jesus, I've always had some level of respect for him because he's willing to call valve and the tf2 workshop community out on their BS.
dude i have no idea where you see that kind of behavior from the tf2 community because all i ever see is every problem the game has being shown on display. not saying thats a bad thing just the complete opposite of what you said.
@@MrIlikepie901 I totally agree with you. Like that's all anyone talks about with tf2 is its problems. I understand why but I feel like I see it so often that it's now just repetitive.
I think people often forget and forgive valve's mishaps because we've seen just how bad the rest of the industry has gotten and valve look like saints in comparison.
I really appreciate that you continue to take valid criticism of your statements to heart. You also hit many nails on the head and really get to the bottom of the problems. I have never seen someone make videos quite like these. It's like we're having an honest to god good discussion here. Please continue uploading. Now, one thing that really bugged me in this video is how you consider the mantreads/gunboats and bootleggers to not have downsides when you lose out on a secondary or primary weapon by equipping them.
I should have been clearer there that I meant it had no negative status effects/debuffs. It was also paired with other examples so I don't think the argument lives or dies on just that alone. Thanks.
mantread/gunboats not having a downside?? that's really disingenuous, the downside is you lose your secondary shotgun, one of the most reliable weapons in the game. you can earn every weapon in 40 hours of gameplay for free, most people do it. while this system probably has caused people to spend money, I have never personally seen this in thousands of hours of both gameplay and trading.
People pay because of the inventory slots, not for the weapons themselves. You dont need to pay for any of them to get them. You mentioned, we couldve gotten a progression unlock system, THERE IS already an unlock system, the milestones and achievements.
I also think that they did not expect tf2 to become competitive. because in all counterstrike games there were no unlocks like this, it was just skins. Csgo is really big into competitive unlike tf2, which is mostly casual although comp is really fun.
@@andre-li7qo It's not really one side or the other, TF2 inherently is a competitively casual game because it demands that you communicate and coordinate with your team to do well... while also having casual aspects like unlockable weapons that prevent newbies from accessing TF2's entire arsenal, random spread and crits.
@@op-gogo8911 If it’s a competitive game name a single major tournament without searching it up. While people do play it competitively it was designed as a casual game first and foremost. The maps were designed around teams with 10+ players and generally always have been. You can play any casual game competitively but that doesn’t mean it’s a competitive game.
@@mdwis6106 there has been a competitive scene ever since the game came out. It has never been huge but it's impressive that there are still leagues, LAN events and other forms of competition for a game that came out in 2007 and before esports became mainstream. Esea, one of the biggest online CS leagues supported the game until 2018ish when they stopped supporting it and the community created RGL. A game doesnt have to be made for eSports for it to be a competitive game, it just has to be good when played competitively, like melee for example
I always loved the people who bitch about NFTs ("paying real money for digital items is stupid!!!") and then immediately drop $300 for a TF2 hat, that right there is why I never really took the people who constantly bitch about NFTs seriously at all
Not a good comparison because of the electrical power NFTs take which is the main thing most people dislike them for. It doesn’t take a standard family’s monthly power consumption to buy a tf2 hat
I didn't play on PC for like 8 years as soon as I made an account and played any Valve multiplayer game got more messages from them than anyone on my friendlist
Personally I think players gradually unlocking weapons helps reduce fatigue/burnout, and avoid the issues with over choice (having too many weapons to pick from, so you cant decide). Additionally, it helps them learn the ins and outs of weapons as the progress in skill and experience, and what does/doesnt work. And most people swear by stock. I've been playing the game for almost a decade and there are few situations where a stock weapon is outclassed by an unlock. I'm almost a total stock purist, with one or two exceptions. Maybe add a few milestone achievements for each class and tie it to a couple of weapons, so that after 100 hours or so, when you've figured out if you like the game or not and you've gotten decent enough to utilize weapons properly, you have every unlockable for whichever class you play the most.
"If some one were to obtain all weapons, it's very unlikely they would go through the free route." Dude almost anyone goes the free route. You get a random drop every week and it's usually a unique weapon (the most common, normal weapon that has no value). You can ask on the in-game chat how the system works and chances are some chump with a thousand hours or more will just give a couple weapons to you 'cuz they're worth fractions of cents. The only thing you'll actually buy, as a new player, is a backpack expander that gives your inventory more slots to fit all the free weapons you'll get.
2:53 this is just.... wrong, I've only played TF2 for about a few hours on my laptop, I'm a fairly new player and I already have all the weapons for engineer on my account and starting to quickly go through pryos weapons as well. I do see where u are coming from but saying that u HAVE to buy weapons eventually in tf2 is just wrong. Also u have to remember that every weapon in TF2 that effects gameplay still isn't better then stock, they are ALL side grades if not WORSE then stock. And most are tied to a very specific way of playing the game.
@Op-gogo 1. Talking about weapons that effect gameplay not stock with camos 2. I'm not surprised that u don't have 100 weapons simply because that depends on what class you are, and how much u actually play that class and whatnot. And that's besides the fact that u don't really NEED all the weapons because again there all just side grades...
>play bunch of games on steam >sell the silly trading cards for 3 bucks >buy tickets and backpack slot with steam money >trade to get all the weapons for free
back in the days you hade achievementservers to help you unlock the new weapons. each class had a 3 milestones achievements which granted you a weapon. back then there were no hats or other gear!
kinda feels like he forgot about crafting, thats a good way of getting the weapons, for free only issue with TF2's inventory is the limited backpack space and THAT being monetary
7:45 ...uh, do you actually own any of these weapons? Equipping the Mantreads or Gunboats means you can't use an offensive/supportive secondary like a shotgun or banner The Wrangler (which can be obtained for free through achievement milestones) shifts your playstyle as engineer so drastically that you're at such a severe disadvantage if you're caught without your sentry, you're as good as dead without the safety net that is a pistol The Mad Milk is similar to the Wrangler in which it removes a pretty big safety net, as well as having the downside of not being able to outrange sentries (scout's biggest weakness) with a pistol The Kritzkrieg (another free achievement item) is a VERY high-risk-high-reward weapon that loses out on the consistency and dependability of Stock The Flare Gun (literally the first achievement item you can get at pyro) is a great weapon but it still falls short when it comes to fighting against other pyros as well as fighting any enemy underwater The Bootlegger / Ali Baba's Wee Booties straight up remove access to the demo's primary weapon and force a completely different playstyle upon the user The Darwin's Danger Shield and Cozy Camper both replace the sniper's secondary, again locking them out of the safety net that is the SMG or the utility that is the Jarate (the second free achievement item for sniper) I'll give you the Third Degree and the Solemn Vow since those are direct upgrades to the stock options, but honestly if you don't play this game, then you should really stop trying to make videos like this
As far as the basic alternative weapons, it’s been a while but I’m pretty sure I receive them all through play, but the situation you described about people falling for the scam that is the main page is absolutely a possibility. I remember being 15/14 and thinking about doing the same thing, Lord knows are of people that have actually bought items that are less than a cent for 10 bucks. But like you said, people should be more vigilant about things. TF2 is my favorite game but valve doesn’t get enough shit about loot boxs really.
I would argue that the presence of payment for weapons is not a matter of Pay to win mentality, but it is rather the insiduous management of presenting the weapons present in the shop as being 'better' or 'being more suitable in X scenario'. A F2P nowadays is presented with the store front as a means of enabling the chat system by paying for any sort of item firstly though, not as a gateway to more power to own veterans. I would go as far as calling TF2 the most unfriendly game towards new players in terms of gameplay, UI and general introduction into the community. Also please, do not introduce the idea of a progression system for weapons in a game like TF2. It will end up building a false sense of security for new players who think that the next weapon they progress to is better than the previous one, like going from Rocket Launcher to Rocket Jumper/Liberty Launcher. Valve is an enabler for most of the rotten things in the industry, we don't need more damage to the game than the dreaded Meet Your Match Update.
Kinda funny how the weapons still have "weapon levels" listed under their names when they serve literally no purpose. When I was a f2p noob many, many years ago I always equipped the weapons that had the highest level.
I disagree. I have never seen TF2s inventory system as unfair. If you buy a game with cash, it's logical that you get everything unlocked, if not, it's BS. If you get a f2p game, it's logical that something is locked behind DLC, or if you're very lucky, many hours of grinding. I see no difference between DLC in other games and backpack expanders in TF2, everything else beyond that can be obtained within a relatively fair time period. The only difference is that DLC is far more entuitive for new players in comparison to the system TF2 sets up, that could just be a quirk of TF2 predating most f2p games that don't open up until after a DLC purchase. The only possible answer to this that I can think of would be an official store DLC that unrestrics f2p accounts, gives them all the weapons, and maybe a few backpack expanders. It'd be more user friendly, and it'd hopefully be at a more legit price.
@@LazyBuddyBan Christmas happens once a year every year dude. Also it Doesn’t even have to be Christmas it just has to be around Christmas time. It’s not hard to just open the game in December, how fuckin lazy are you.
There are issues with tf2 as a f2p, this ain't it chief. Each weapon in tf2 can be gotten for less than a cent (us) on scraptf. The issue with being free is that you cannot chat. I got all unique items through gaming, it was after my acc got stolen was when I had to pay for them. Using scrap metal, 9 scrap is worth 3 cents, which means a scrap metal (worth 2 items) is 1/3 of a cent. And it can be gotten easily without paying.
Love seeing someone else not forgive No Man's Sky. Now even Cyberpunk is getting the royal ass licking all over reddit. So it sadly seems that yes, you can put out a garbage product and improve it if you have enough sales to be worth it.
This video feels like it gives a breath of fresh air to me Some systems in TF2 really are pretty stupid and concerning when you think about them Makes you wonder even more how this game managed to "live" for over ten years
I actually quit TF2 back in 2018 due to a gambling addiction I was starting to form. I only spent about $120 in total on the game, which is literally pennies compared to the big dollars that the average player spends, but I've been poor all my life so that $120 is alot of money to me. I think the final straw for me was I bought a $60 Unusual taunt right when the Unusual taunt market crashed, so I sold a taunt I paid 30 keys for for only 11. You don't pay to win in the sense of getting more kills in the match, but you do pay to win in the contest of who looks better. I've thought about coming back to the game for the sake of MVM, however I still can't bring myself to do it. The playerbase for it has only gotten worse in the past 5 years so I know I'm not missing out on much by not playing it. I'll probably never come back to the game until they remake it for Source 2 like they are for CS:GO.
Sir, the developers of No Mans Sky was a small team and lost all their deeta in a flood not long before release, the other companies don't have that excuse
If a flood deletes all your data you should delay your game until it is back in working order. You cant just release an unfinished game and lie about it's features, then blame it on a flood.
@@matsis01 They really couldn't delay it, sony was on their tail, everyone was getting impatient after the hype going on for so long, Internet Historians video explained all the hundus that happened. That and the guy I forgot the name of that did all those interviews was really not suited for being a spokesman of any kind. If the world was this simple then games really *would* take their time. No Man's Sky was an exception, a small indie team, several accidents and lawsuits, overhype, AAA price and AAA expectations. Was there faults? Naturally, they weren't completely innocent, but this is a gray-area and not exactly as clear as later examples of games releasing unfinished. I consider Hello Games redeemed, because they had to deal with a bunch of disasters. You cannot say the same for other companies. That and the game is pretty cool.
A broken game is a broken game, regardless of the circumstances. They helped set the precedent that a game can suck on launch, so long as you come back and fix it at some indeterminate point in the future (after you've already got everyones money).
@@ShreddedNerd Black-and-white thinking is for losers who is going to end up either dead or being exploited, you know. I'm placing a healthy amount of blame on the masses that is allowing these precedents to take place to begin with. (Many messages and comments of mine contain invisible subtext that I did not bother writing.)
@@nordgeit Sounds like the bully telling you to stop hitting yourself while they grab your arm and use your own fist to punch you in the face. It'd be nice if people used their collective power to boycott, but there are far more people out there than you know and enough that even a minority of players can screw the rest over by setting such a precedent.
Bro.. it's a free game, and one where you can get all guns for very cheap if not free. Like, 2 dollars for a classic shooter is not bad dawg. Pay to play is more apt.
5:38 I remember when i tried tf2 i got kick a lot because of the bot in Saibot so i had to buy weapons from the store to be able to talk and tell those idiots that I'm not one and i so took the pyro pack my main. If you have to buy something in tf2 only buy 1 weapons unlock pack for the class you like the most 8:51 I have to add i bought the pyro pack on the Mann co. Store and the reason for that is i didn't know the trick with the key
TF2 fans on their way to defend their game being heavily commodified and have their money syphoned in a giant blackmailing racketeering scheme just because they like the video of the main characters with Joji-Tick Tock playing in the background.
Yeah I don’t understand the logic here (or really any of his logic). I feel like these are all simply observations with conclusions attached as an afterthought. Yes, clearly the point is to monetize in game items. It’s a f2p game. That’s how they work. It’s not a scam for things to be expensive or go on sale. A scam is when you’re promised one thing but are given something else after making the purchase. The thing that drives store engagement in tf2 is item slots and that’s not even touched on here.
I'm not sure if i agree with what you're saying in this video. I think the item system in tf2 is good as I think starting without items when beginning the game is good as it familiarises you with the game and the different characters. Ignoring items there is a lot to learn in TF2 when compared with other shooters and there is a lot of experimentation with different characters without even considering other items. And then the player will be given more items as they play which they can also familiarise themselves with. I'm not sure if your statement on most items entering the market through crates is true. It is definitely true when considering the special items but i'm not sure how many people are buying the default items as opposed to unlocking them via the random drops or achievements (there are also achievement servers that allow players to unlock all achievement items for free). I suspect most of the items on the market come from bots which farm the random drop items and sell them.
All i want is to have access to the same game other players do, and i shouldn't have to go to a 3rd party website i didn't want to go to to avoid VALVE scamming me, let alone trade offer bot scams...
buying weapons is such a non issue if you actually play the game. this video makes 0 sense. i never had to buy a weapon (and you also dont need like 98% of the weapons)
@Op-gogo then go play something else, jesus. i used to play this game in xbox (no weapons, no hats, no uptades) and the game was still fun as hell. maybe you just dislike the game dude
Speaking as a grown up big boy, you're malding a tad bit much over 1$ (You can just buy off every unique weapon with a Tour of Duty ticket if you scrounge up a dollar in steam funds. Some CS GO crates are worth well over 5$ and can be earned with barely any playtime, steam cards, etc, etc.). And if you are so lacking in self-control or have a literal gambling addiction, then managing your finances and only trading cosmetics because it'd look nice and not because you need to feel like a virtual travelling merchant makes being sucked into this market (filled to the BRIM with bots and degenerates eitherway) a non-issue. Speaking as a once naive child however, which doesn't stray far from this game's target audience, the Scam Co store being the first encounter with items can really fool you. Back in 2012, I've spent upwards of 200$ on the OFFICIAL store, a sum that would be worth in total 30$ if done with trade nowadays, especially weapons. Since I wasn't very sure of trading and the stigma surrounding scammers, I also indulged in crates, further introducing a stupid 11 year old into possibly gambling for stupid prizes. And I agree on stock weapons, that shit sucks. Maybe not due to the stats but because they cast F2Ps into 9 basic playstyles, missing out on various different and fun playstyles derived from item combos. Oh and fuck weapon skins and fagot-grade cosmetics that artificially inflate the market.
The worst part is that a better system for unlocking weapons already exists, but it is rather rudimentary. It's contracts, namely the pyroland contracts. You get to test out a weapon, do various challenges with said weapon, and once you're done, you get the weapon forever. However, this only applies to 5 weapons. My solution for making a better weapon system would be to increase the inventory from 50 slots to 300 or something like that, remove the option to buy weapons, and expand the contract system to be much more fleshed out and apply to all classes. It isn't perfect, as it can lock you into playing a specific playstyle, but it's far better than the system we have now.
I never unlocked a weapon trough crates xD but two points I say are annoying the limited inventory wich make me cry when I hear from a f2p when they throw away cool rare stuff or the pay to speak thing they need to return to the old state
Isn't the "%30 of cut in market stores" a industry standart? Both Playstation and Xbox get %30 of the developer's cuts too, only stores that i know of that go lower than that are EGS and Microsoft Store (PC), trying to incentivize developers to use their garbage front. It's a good thing to want developers payed more but i don't see how this is a Valve issue?
It's an industry issue that they both started and are continuing to contribute to. If they changed their practices, since they are also the industry leader in this regard, then people might actually follow suit, like Apple.
If I may like to say, Titanfall 2 was a great game the only reason it failed was because EA's release date their poor marketing, and also because modern gaming often takes for granted alot of games which were actually good and had alot of player freedoms and gameplay mechanics that were better then even today first person shooters. It wasn't Titanfall 2 which failed gamers it was both corporate executives & modern gaming who failed Titanfall 2 and took for granted a piece of treasure which was a blessing that went unnoticed and looked down upon in contempt.
Funny how you never touched the topic of “Stock isn’t useless.” Argument. It’s almost like Stock Weapons are generally well balanced, and fun! It’s like the weapon options where added in later!? :0!!!!! Genuinely. Stock weapons are a great. Even when put against the version with extra stats. Yes there are some that are absolutely upgrades compared to stock, but that doesn’t outright negate stock weapons. There are a few very specific examples, like snipers bow, and the ubersaw. But generally most have more downsides.. brass beast? Move slower while raved up, for more damage. Natasha less damage for slowing people down. Mantreads/Gunboats (one you said that didn’t have a downside) takes away Soldiers Shotgun that is useful against Pyros. Quickybomb launcher? Halfs the amount of stickies you can put on the ground for a faster fire/ reload rate. Demo’s sheilds take away the stick bomb launcher for more movement options. While the stickybomb launcher lets you jump around, being already a movement option. Yes, there is a problem with the Mann Co. store being a scam. Yes, it is very predatory for valve to continue the lootbox route, instead of using the contractor for its intended use. But outright ignoring a huge argument against your “tf2 is predatory”, is very deceptive. Complain about the cosmetics, and scummy ways valve wants you to spend money all you want, but acknowledge that Stock isn’t useless.
I didn't initially agree with you in your first video. I agree now. I think why people are so fast to disagree with you on this (or at least this is why I did) is because it's a hard reality to accept. In many ways, Valve is an amazing company. They do good stuff. They innovate. And nowadays, most AAA game companies are pretty shit, with Valve for the most part being an exception. I personally just have always thought of Valve to be the only good game company out there. It felt like a sort of "safe haven" for me. A garuntee that there will at least be a chance of an actually good, high quality game, with no strings attached. A company with some of the best morals of all of them. Their games were also a huge part of my childhood. So, it hurts to look back and truly accept what they have really done here for me. This was my reason that I initially disagreed. Denial.
You forget the game used to cost money. You used fo have to buy the game and the weapons were way more expensive than they are now. The games really high effort for free albeit outdated. If you enjoy the free game u buy some hats I like the system of finding items over time I remember when I used to get excited over a new item drop and if every item was granted to me when I installed it (2010) I would have probably been overwhelmed. Yeah the system hasnt aged perfectly but there are way worse games that cost money and are still full of micro transactions that are not even tradable. I agree with you about how game companys blow but I dont see how thats relevant to a decade free game. It sounds like you still dont know much about the game but you want to sound smart
Regarding the mann co store scammy prices, you have to realize that money has different value to different people. Anyone that thinks that 5 bucks for some weapons that you can get for less than 3 cents is a scam will not buy them and will stick to the free methods or trading. For others, 5 bucks means absolutely nothing to them so they see no problem with spending 5 bucks to get those items directly from the in-game store, without the hassle of looking up trade sites and how to trade. This p2w "problem" is not really a problem conisidering that the most effective weapons are generally the stock ones, and the sidegrades that impact the gameplay the most are achievement items which can be unlocked easily.
Let's not forget that (And I'm saying this as an experienced player) some weapons such as the crossbow or ubersaw are integral to the meta of an entire class, Medic.
The only weapon you showed that is a direct upgrade is the third degree. Solemn vow I think swings slower. if everything on the mann co store were cheaper it would directly affect the price of the item market. You're creating a new weapon without play time i.e. disrupting the normal influx of items that would be there otherwise. This doesn't matter for weapon prices, but scrap and everything else, so just pooled item stock inflation. If you had 100,000 new players come in and they all started creating weapons from the mann co store, or if all of these were just given and untradeable, it would detract from the value of the tf2 market as a whole, or flood it. Instead they actively enrich it just by playing, even if they don't buy anything. Valve planned it pretty flawlessly in that regard. Game's "dying" because they neglect it and actively sabotage it in the name of stopping bots. I haven't seen a more resilient community, and the player economy and f2p entrance fee is a big reason for that, on top of being a solid game. Most games from that long ago are dead or maintained by a community of people who loved it, see demon souls on rpcs3 Ever since the inclusion of the iron bomber community efforts have been horrible and ruined the game's aesthetic and soul. csgo emulation was a horrible direction, but it's here to stay.
The text chat ban for free to plays was in response to the bots spamming chat with racial slurs and other offensive language. I don't think it had anything to do with applying more pressure to F2P players to buy something from the mann co store. Although it certainly had that effect.
None of the monetization practices in TF2 are a problem. They're all very generous. The problem has been that, since the switch to it being free to play, and adding the ability to earn actual money by grinding and selling items, it heavily incentivizes bot farms and cheaters, mostly in third world countries, where hard labor might earn you $5-20 a day. That's where "play to earn" games have always flourished. Until they fix that fundamental dangerous combination (f2p + p2e), there will always be tons of cheaters and bots.
before you spend money on keys (2.50 from where i am) for weapon you should buy a vintage lvl weapon for 0.18 cents in the comunity market sooooo no crates are here for special Hats / Custome Weapons things like Paints and strangeefiers and killstreaks wich are mostly also cheap in the comunity market
I'm surprised nobody mentioned how you can just craft TF2 weapons using some of the random drops you get. In a sense TF2 does have an unlock system but sometimes you get to choose what items you unlock when you get enough drops to do so. The reason anyone started spending money in this game is to have a larger inventory, not to get weapons. Getting weapons for free is also so much easier than buying from a f2p perspective. I mean, why buy a ton of weapons you don't even know how to use all at once when you can regularly get them for free while learning the game? I don't disagree with the fact that Valve is not your friend and they do try to get your money in less than fair ways like with loot boxes and we should stay vigilant whenever they try to pull shit. At the same time I feel like a lot of people (at least me) are fatigued with the aggressive monetization present in modern games and among games that still have an active community TF2 has one of the fairest models for obtaining items that effect gameplay out there so it feels out of place seeing videos kicking tf2 when its down being so ignored by Valve as a whole at this point. It is true that a lot of TF2 players have invested in the game with money, but I'd be remiss to say its due to people buying weapons when they're so easily obtainable, even though Valve does attempt to get people to pay for them when they don't have to. Perhaps TF2 would be better if it just had a progression system for obtaining all of its weapons and you couldn't purchase them even if you wanted to. Its easy to be clouded in nostalgia for this game that I enjoy so much combined with the fact that I don't have the perspective of a different time. I haven't played any multiplayer game with a progression system like you mentioned as it seems to be a relic of the past. However I also can't deny the enjoyment I got from getting random weapons as drops and using some of the duplicates to craft weapons I wanted. I guess what I'm trying to say is that saying TF2 is P2W comes across strange given the current gaming landscape where monetization is pushed so heavily while in TF2 its so more lax that one could play the game without even realizing they could have paid for some type of advantage. I think the fact that tf2 doesn't "feel" P2W despite having avenues allowing for it says a lot more about other multiplayer games than it does about TF2 and maybe that's the problem. Just to note: I'm not really trying to refute what you said, rather I'm trying to explore these ideas by writing this comment if that makes sense.
I honestly don't understand why all un-skinned common versions of all weapons aren't just always available like stock, maybe still unlocked by playtime by class/achieves (topteserve the learning curve or something)
@Op-gogo well yeah, but that is part of the fun. You can get almost all the weapons by playing the game, even if it takes some planning and work to get it done. Maybe I shouldn't have said easily, but I still think it's not hard.
Fucking preach. Valve have always had critical flaws, including in their games, yet people have been memed into a state where apparently Valve's only flaw is that they don't le update le TF2 le count to 3 anyone? thanks for the updoots
Honestly I feel like TF2s model in practice actually wound up more so being a very stupidly complicated version of like the nintendo mobile game monetization scheme.... Its a "free trial" where you just don't get all the gameplay features- with a 2.50 dollar buy in to get the full game with only cosmetic mtx to bug you. Which is such a bizarre model that I wonder how tf it works- but perhaps the complexity of it all getting new players to get invested in more than just the weapons.. *is* the point? I wouldn't know lol I have paid a net of like 5 dollars into tf2 over my 8k hours of playtime lol.
Also I'm really glad you also brought up the No Man's Sky thing. I do _not_ care how good the game is, I will always judge it by it's launch. No Man's Sky. Andromeda. Fallout 76. Cyberpunk. 2042. I don't care how good their meat-riding fans claim their holy product is, how they launched is beyond unacceptable and I will never play those games or support their developers ever again. One thing we as gamers refuse to do is understand that if we don't pay for a product, then our voices will be heard. Vote with your wallet. Stop being a Redditor Soyjak.
i agree, mostly because the game has become just that, gambling. since valve stopped actively working on a game that is supposed to be a live service it has been losing what made it enjoyable because of the cheater problem and boiled down to waiting until next update to spend money on cosmetic cases. the community is trying to keep it alive via community servers and what not in hopes valve actually does something to fix the game, i only wish people were actually vocal about the issues rather than praise the company for the new copy pasted hat that comes out every 5 months or so.
Be warned, a massive "thesis" of random thoughts and garbage is below. It is also very opinionated. You have been warned. Also before anyone says "why did you do this" I did it because it was fun researching this and thinking about this debate. Yes I had fun doing this. I'm weird I know. I finished typing it and youtube wont let me comment it all in one go so go to the replies if you want to read the rest. I agree on a few things, but disagree on others. I will preface this by saying I started playing TF2 in 2019, I am a free to play [or rather I consider myself a free to play and I'll explain later why I am technically not], and I consider it to be a great game both in its design and in its "funness" [as well as my friends who dislike it acknowledge it being a good game so I'm going to assume that general consensus is that its a good game.] I also feel like a timeline of the game is important. Timeline: October 10, 2007 - Release date [only stock weapons] April 29, 2008 - Gold Rush Update [First addition of new weapons and the item loadout system which allows for you to equip said weapons. The method of obtaining these weapons were through the achievement unlock system, one for each third of the medic specific achievements. I may be mistaken but I believe this is when steams "inventory" system started to exist, in that you had items in your inventory or backpack and could equip them because of it. In this update they also stated that they would add 3 new weapons for each class as they did for medic which would be unlocked in a similar fashion.] April 20, 2009 - Patch [Added the ability to delete items from backpack, there's a few more backpack updates but it is note worthy they made it impossible to acquire the achievement items again after they got deleted] May 21, 2009 - Sniper Vs Spy [Added the item drop system, which has been changed and tweaked over the years but essentially rewards players for playing the game with new items similar to games like Dont Starve Together. These items can be [albeit rarely] cosmetic in nature, but most of the time are unskinned weapon side grades (some weapons are in fact considered direct upgrades to stock in a few scenarios which I will address later).] December 17, 2009 - WAR! Update [Added the ability to craft weapons and cosmetics among other things.] September 30, 2010 - Mann-Conomy Update [Added 65 new items, cosmetics, weapons, mini games, tools, crates, etc. Added the ability to trade weapons, added microtransaction system and the Mann Co Store. This update also added the addition of set bonuses, in that using a certain combination of items and cosmetics granted a buff to the player.] October 8, 2010 - Patch [Added crafting recipes for cosmetic items related to set bonuses. This gave people the ability to obtain the set bonuses without having to pay, trade, or get incredibly lucky on a free cosmetic drop for the ability to use the set bonus. The reason why I did not address the items being released alongside the set bonuses is because they were made craftable upon release.] December 17, 2010 - Australian Christmas [Expanded backpack sizes by 100 slots and added the backpack expander.] June 23, 2011 - Free to play [The game became free to play, making all previous players premium accounts. All accounts or players who get the game afterwards would be free-to-play accounts unless they do something to obtain premium account status.] July 10, 2013 - Set Bonuses Removed [Set bonuses were removed (or rather no longer gave buffs other than cosmetic calling cards or particle effects). While most items could be crafted, traded for, or bought they were usually regarded as overpowered. The argument could be made (and should be made, and probably was made) that locking a buff behind a cosmetic purchase was pay to win. That being said the set bonuses were both overpowered and seen as essentially pay-to-win. It could be argued that since the items to acquire the set bonus (which is overpowered) is not pay to win as it can be obtained via crafting, although I do not view this argument as a good one. December 20, 2013 - Smissmas 2013 [This update started the trend of giving out stockings to all players who played during December (or rather anyone who opened the game during December). Stockings included free cosmetics, paints, name tags, item tags, and most importantly in my opinion of course a backpack expander. Backpack expanders increase the size of the users backpack by 100 slots.] There is probably a lot more and I'm not going to include the bot crisis that is going on in the game (which is a great example of the point you made in this video to tell Valve when they are being bad, that they are being bad).
Personal take: It is scummy of Valve [despite how much I like them] to include pay to win aspects in their game, especially during the period in which it wasn't free. Similar [not directly similar] to how CSGO went wherein they implemented the systems of a free to play game and then swapped to free to play [instead of the other way around] which I guess could be seen as a way to either test if going free to play was safe in a monetary way, or if they wanted to see if hypothetically a free to play microtransactional system was more lucrative. While I don't personally view the current system as being "pay-to-win" I view it as a microtransactional monetary system in which you can pay for skins, or in absurd cases unlocks. I agree that it is scummy to have a system set in place wherein new people can buy weapons for dollars of money. While it isn't a good argument to use ones own experience or opinions as a basis for why I am essentially okay with the current system in place, I feel like it is the main factor for why I view it as a microtransactional system instead of a pay-to-win system. In fact, the only people I have heard say that the game is pay-to-win have been players who are new to the game assuming that everyone else playing the game bought the weapons they are using. This confuses me because nobody who is not new to the game would pay for the weapons (they may have when they were new at one point) and even if they did they have played the game enough to where it is an incredibly safe assumption to say they earned it without money. Essentially, the same group of people who would be saying [again from personal experience from when I have played the game, seen in game chat, etc] that the game is pay-to-win would also be the ones most likely to "pay-to-win" (which for a lot of cases should be considered pay-to-lose, especially when combined with the fact that the players are new). The players who would be destroying the new players are inherently not pay-to-win because they are not new players (and have learned how to play the game better) [except in the rare case of a broken particle on a cosmetic hat which bugs with the sniper scope semi-obscuring the view of a sniper trying to counter-snipe. This is a bug though, not an intended feature. One which only the sweatiest of tryhards abuse as well.] Another reason why I don't view the ability to buy unlocks (albeit almost exclusively in TF2, note the almost as I'll make a comparison later) as pay-to-win is because majority of the unlocks are side grades with a few exceptions. Medic's primary and melee are usually considered direct upgrades, I say considered because there are actual downsides to using them but they are typically not balanced well at least with stock in mind. One item which is genuinely a direct upgrade to stock is the Third Degree. There are no downsides when using this weapon in comparison to stock, it is objectively a direct upgrade. Most items are viewed as side-grades by the community, a few as upgrades, and a lot of them as direct downgrades when compared to stock. Weapons are intended with the purpose of being a different way of playing, as opposed to being a direct buff or something that is inherently better [albeit again, some are not balanced well.] Each weapon unlocks a slightly different playstyle, with some weapons being more different than others, and having a combination of weapons completely change the way you play the class [battle engineer, demoknight, etc]. This creates subclasses, which are derived from certain playstyles of people. Some people view subclasses as item sets rather than mindsets but personally I view it as a playstyle. I can play battle engineer regardless of what weapons I use. I can play demoknight [admittedly with less efficiency] regardless of what weapons I use. I guess it could be seen as unlocking new characters or toys to play with, which leads me to the item drop system. I agree that it is somewhat scummy that the inventory of free to plays is limited to 50 slots with there being [if this random reddit post I found is right because I'm not going to count after looking through the entire patch notes history, I already put too much effort into this for no good reason other than maybe boredom and enjoyment from it] 160 items excluding reskins with like 20 of them being stock weapons. That being said though I find it un-scummy that they give out 100 slots a year to all players during christmas. Not to mention that on halloween they give out an insane amount of halloween cosmetics for free for doing challenges [all of which are free to access by all players during Octoberish.] Regardless of that my personal view on the item system for TF2 in its current state is that it is actually good for new players. Rather than bombarding players with an insane amount of weapons and customization, they give the player time to learn the basics by limiting their available toys. As a way of adding new content for the player they "unlock" new items for the player around an average of 8 times per week. These items could be cosmetics but are almost always weapons. This has probably led to many players like me, having sentimental attachment to our first set of new weapons (even if it was random). For clarification I'm talking about weapons, not skins or specific instances of weapons in inventories. The game trickles new content for you to explore despite being incredibly old. Circling back to the medic weapons, the example you used in this video was actually the Ubersaw. A weapon given on achievements, or by random chance during item drops. As shown in the timeline earlier of patch notes, it was one of the first side-grades added to the game. It was added before the Mann Conomy update which enabled players to buy weapons from the Mann Co Store. I would argue that the purpose of the weapons existing is not for the purpose of providing a pay to win mechanic, but rather for an interesting side-grade which can because of "recent" updates be acquired sooner via spending real money. In fact crafting exists as a combatant to the randomness of item drops which again was added before the Conomy update. In the case of a hypothetical scenario in which two perfectly equal skilled players were in a perfectly equal environment, there aren't any cases in which I can view one weapon being objectively better than the other. Maybe the crossbow medic would beat the syringe gun medic if both players were new and didn't know how to dodge well, but they also wouldn't know how to predict movement well either. Most of the time if I think about this view it could be attributed to one player winning because a certain weapon synergizes well with a certain playstyle that is enhanced on a certain map. A crusader crossbow would be better at long open sight line maps than a stock syringe gun [while the opposite would be true for close quarters maps].
In my personal case I joined in 2019. I joined because I wanted to play spy, and so I did. I unlocked a lot of random items, some of which were for spy and some of which weren't. I worked on achievements for certain weapons I wanted, or just enjoyed playing the game and getting better. At around 20 hours of playtime on Spy [and basically the game total] I could beat my friend who was a 1000 hour spy try-hard [this isn't a flex, I just remember this moment well because of how absurd it was which is how I know the next sentence]. I was using an ambassador, YER, and deadringer if I recall correctly, with no items donated or bought or traded for etc. After a bit more hours I started to branch out and try other classes. I specifically remember a moment on Upward wherein I saw an engineer using a wrangler and a rescue ranger to play really defensively. I asked them how to acquire such items and they told me I had to get them by random chance. [I never recall a popup from Valve or TF2 telling me to buy items, moreover I only remember people telling me to do achievements, go to free item servers [which I viewed as cheating in regards to the progression, and since you didn't mention it in the video I'll explain that free item servers are servers that give you all the milestone achievements as well as other random holiday or promotional achievements that give you items. This means any new player can join the server, type !items and instantly get all the non-random progression items] or trade for them. One person in particular who I asked sent me a trade offer [which was just them giving me free items] because they saw I was new and I was interested in the items they were using. They gave me their rescue ranger [which wasn't even a normal one, it was a strange one] a wrangler, and a free ~6$ stock wrench skin with the note "Enjoy learning engie". As I was playing I can't recall a time when I died to someone and it wasn't clearly my fault (which is part of TF2's "hit or miss"/"win or lose" game design philosophy which Sniper mostly defies to the point where devs have stated if they were to remove a class it would be sniper without a doubt). Upon nearing a backpack limit I decided to learn about how to no longer be free-to-play. I am incredibly stingy with money and essentially refused to actually buy something from the store. It was near a steam sale [I forget if christmas or summer] but I had some money ready to buy another game. I realized that I could [and I did do this] buy a key from the Mann Co Store (as it can be sold for almost the same price on the steam market place) making me get premium for only a few cents (which I sold a few trading cards steam gave me to make up for). Some of my other friends who started playing during the bot crisis (when free to plays got muted so bots couldn't spam music [it did not help and it should be undone]) decided to spend a spare dollar on a map stamp (which goes directly to the creator of the map) and got premium. Out of every friend I have shown the game I have not heard "pay to win" from them nor have I seen anyone including my friends quite literally ever buy weapons [only skins]. Nor have I ever heard of players using crates to unlock weapons [again only skins]. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree with calling the game is "pay-to-win" because players can bypass the natural progression system to unlock side-grades [which sometimes aren't balanced properly, but not on purpose or for the desire to make the game "pay-to-win"] because that doesn't really feel like "pay-to-win". It feels like a microtransactional "pay-to-skip-progression". Ideally weapons that you unlock shouldn't be objectively stronger than the ones new players have. Just because the side-grades are better for certain playstyles doesn't [in my eyes] inherently make the game "pay-to-win". If we treat the weapons as they are intended to be side-grades, in an ideal world said side-grades would be perfectly balanced (which is impossible based on the map and different gamemodes etc.) If each unlocked weapon was balanced perfectly to be equal [not greater nor lesser] than stock weapons would you still call it pay-to-win? Especially with every weapon being acquirable without microtransactions, albeit with much more effort than pressing the purchase button? I'd argue that the main reason people [maybe including you] consider TF2 to be pay-to-win is not because of the systems in place or the fact that you can buy the weapons, but rather the view of un-equality among the weapons, that one weapon is inherently better. Certain weapons are designed to be better at certain things than other weapons, but they aren't designed with the intent to be broken or better than the others objectively. While it may be better to have a backscatter when behind someone, it is inherently worse to be using one when in-front. The argument that side-grades have times where they are better than stock fails to realize that there are times where they are worse than stock. You could argue that having the choice to swap OFF of a side-grade can prevent these "worse than stock" moments from happening when using a weapon, and they can. But that is the fault of the inherent casualness of TF2, not the side-grades themselves. Now hear me out, League of Legends. Don't worry the throw up bucket is over there. Do you view League of Legends as a pay-to-win game? Each character can be and is naturally unlocked by the player throughout their playtime [although instead of giving the unlock, the game gives a discount to buy the unlock with in game non-premium locked currency which can be bought with actual money if wanted]. Each unlocked character has their ups and downs. Certain maps they are better. In certain gamemodes they are better. Each unlock presents a new playstyle. Some of the characters are directly counters to others. One of the few differences is that characters cannot be swapped mid game (due to how competitive the game is) and are locked in at the start. Certain competitive modes in TF2 also do this. Another similarity is that skins can be crafted very rarely at the expense of free items. Both games are free, and monetized via microtransactions. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming this but majority of players who play League view it as a skill-to-win game and it's even featured in some of their advertisements. If you ask anyone who plays League whether or not it is pay-to-win I'm convinced 99% will say no, not that general consensus makes something objective of course. TF2 has a similar style of monetization, but also has some thought and care put into it. I prefer the fact that TF2 gives unlocks randomly by play time rather than how well you did in a game [especially as a new player] or how many absurd seasonal quests you do. Maybe I'm wrong but yeah sorry for my massive thesis on why I don't view TF2 as a pay-to-win game. Just my personal opinion, which is most likely very flawed and stupid. Only saying this as a means of exchanging opinions but feel free to flame me anyone who reads this. Oh also another point I forgot to add is that you are able to have a test run with any weapon in the game. The test run lasts two weeks, and after the two weeks you are able to do another test run [of the same item if you want or a different one]. I've seen some people use this while they were waiting for item drops to play with an item they really wanted etc.
On a practical level, the problems you've listed are tuned in a way that makes them non-issues Most unlockable weapons are downgrades, some are sidegrades, many of the weapons are reskins of stock or unlockable weapons This only increases the likelihood of quickly obtaining a complete set of functional items through drops Still, in principle, they've opened the floodgates for other companies to crank up the numbers to the point where their games are genuinely unplayable It seems harsh to go after the developer that opened pandora's box when the very same developer has practiced the greatest amount of moderation ever since
Just because they aren’t the worst doesn’t mean they aren’t bad. Any company implementing shitty microtransactions that are pay of to win should be criticized.
Finally someone that sees why I hate and Dislike a lot the horrible tf2 weapon system. And When I mention it someone says "But they are just hats" and I think... "Why so you think I talk about the hats??? I'm talking about the stupid and random pay for open this box and get a random powerful or weird weapon!"
TF2 has many flaws, but weapon unlock system is not it. While stock loadouts not always suit the player, they are the all reliable. All the unlocks are side grades that may be fun and rewarding for different playstyles but not superior outright, besides few irrelevant outliers that are only better than the default on paper. Besides it's a fucking 15 year old game with players younger than the game itself.
Gunboats, Manntreads and Ali baba wee booties have no downsizes??? What????? You litterally trade away a secondary/primary weapon to use it. There ws a lot of times where I was died because I didn't have a secondary. Same with the flare gun, wrangler, sniper secondaries and mad milk. The only one I agree it's a direct upgrade is the solemn vow, but it's a medic weapon, a class that isn't great on combat. And nobody likes the third degree, it's considered the worst of the pyro weapons in the community Tf2 is not a flawless game and there are a lots of things you can critizise about it (sniper being kinda OP, limited slots in the inventory, bots, etc) but this isn't it chief.
Honestly I agree with this video now that I look at it. although the unlockable weapons on every single class aren’t really needed except the medic, engineer, and spy. Their default weapons are horrible
engineer's and spy's stock loadouts are fine. you can get a ubersaw for medic with achievements. i dont really see how his tf2 is p2w argument makes sense because weapons really dont grant you an unfair advantage in this game and you will unlock them for free anyways
Saying that it isn't pay to win because you can get it for free after spending shit tones of time is the same as saying unlocking heros in a game after years of grinding is okay even though paying unlocks them instantly
I personally never had an issue with the unlockable items; I got lots and lots of them from pickups and never spent a penny. You can also sell trading cards and item pickups and use that to get items you want. I'm not trying to come across like I'm trying to downplay your criticisms at all though, just sharing why it never seemed like an issue from my point of view as just another player. I love things like Bonk Soda, the Sandman, the various Heavy edibles, and Demoman's charger and melee weapons. I played it on and off since before it went free to play, probably around 200 total.
Why do you think I'm sat here still playing the xbox version when I can? Valve have gone out of their way to sabotage the PC version and left it in an absolute shit state. They created the bot problems by making the game F2P, created the abusive gambling abusive on the back of that, in house understaffing practices and constant patching of the game have created a buggy unoptimised spaghetti code mess, and destroyed the servers by forcing in unwanted and unnecessary matchmaking systems. How to ruin your game in 10 easy steps by Valve. Couldn't just leave it alone and let people enjoy it. I remember a time when I desperately wanted a PC good enough to play it because the Xbox 360 version got no new maps or weapons. And now I'm glad it didn't. Well, some more maps would be nice.
tf2 wouldve been dead 10 years ago had it not received the changes it did but yeah have fun playing the shitty xbox version that uses the dogwater 2007 version
I think it’s funny to compare the two. But if your actually serious then it’s stupid. For example the big deference is why there purchased. The nfts are sold on nothing but the hope they’ll become more valuable. While tf2 items are bought just people like the game.
Nah, weapon system ain't it, chief. Weapons really are easy to obtain for no money at all. Real problem are the lootboxes, cause they essentially are gambling, and TF2 was one of those games that popularized them. I dunno why you have to double down on this weapon system argument.
Stop bringing up No Man's Sky. It was perfect on release, I will fight you on this. I don't care how shredded you are, meet me behind the inventory at 8 tonight.
How about playing Overwatch instead, xD, manz, still waiting for you to break down why Apex Sucks actually or video why Insurgency Sandstorm proximity chat is revolutionary, maybe bash Siege?
Another day, another bunch of fools who think the companies who makes 6-7 figures off them care if they white knight their products. Edit: I'm glad you made this vide despite all that.
Valve taking a 30% cut is why I won't buy any games through Steam. In fact, I won't buy a game through any of the storefronts. If it's not direct to the studio it's a pass from me.
![[TF2] Valve Comp Is A Complete Joke](/img/n.gif)
"If some one were to obtain all weapons it's very unlikely they would go through the free route."
They would pay to get an expanded backpack, but they would not buy weapons. If you look back on your early memories of TF2, you would know that it's not the weapons themselves, but the limited backpack that makes people pay. The constantly shrinking space is why people spend two dollars.
Also, I strongly dislike seasonal challenges. That is all.
I disagree with you about this consider that i have 9 backpack space without spending beside valve already give you free backpack every christmas but yeah the mute for f2p however
Yeah, that's what pushed me back in the day (2012/2013), I just bought the cheapest thing on the mann co store from what I remember (I had no clue about trading).
However, I think you didn't get backpack expanders for christmas back then unlike today, but I could be wrong.
I played TF2 for 2 years without spending a cent and I was able to get all the weapons even though my backpack expanders all came from the christmas updates.
You get free inventory expanders for Smissmas, who the hell actually spends money on them?
I'm surprised you didn't mention how the inventory only has limited slots, leaving players (mostly f2p) to have to buy more slots to avoid their inventory being capped by Item duplicates and crates.
Probably for bot reasons.
In fairness if you saved an entire backpack of crates combined you could probably get the 5 bucks. Granted that is absolutely hell to individually sell
My personal problem
I really wish more people talked about that.
@@WokeDEMOCRATShaveASPD how would that stop bots?
im honestly shocked that valve doesn't let you restore deleted achievement items that *AREN'T* tradeable & marketable. things like gibus & spellbooks. or even restoring item cosmetics as untradeable. this SHOULD be a thing!
They did allow you to get achivement item back just send it to steam support that how i get my gibus and haunted metal back but only 1 time
@@sashapinesnguyenhienhoa8003 i tried and they refused.
@@Cynidecia Yeah usually they do this cause "people were using it to try and one up the system" aka steam support is bad and accidentally gave people free unusuals instead of their restored hat somehow, and used that as an excuse and ran with it.
@@phgumerr646 its annoying as i genuinely dont see a problem if its achievement items like a gibus or whatnot.
I genuinely never knew a single person ever bought the items, everybody I know just played to get them lol
You're making this up
@@RodWaffle I never met one either. you can get them, and the weapons trade 1-1, so you can get all of them in maybe 50 hours of gameplay or much less
@@RodWaffle just play the game lol
I get that feeling man, still don’t have the sticky jumper though after 300 hours in though
@@theshrekening2157 I had a bit of trouble getting it to, but damn it felt good getting a drop for it
less than a dollar is a creative way of saying $0:01
I think one of the bigger issues with TF2 is the complacency that the community figureheads are with the issues the game has, and trying to silence or other those who show criticism towards the game. While I have my issues with people like Zesty Jesus, I've always had some level of respect for him because he's willing to call valve and the tf2 workshop community out on their BS.
dude i have no idea where you see that kind of behavior from the tf2 community because all i ever see is every problem the game has being shown on display. not saying thats a bad thing just the complete opposite of what you said.
That's true
Zesty is a necessary evil. he doesnt like to be negative, but someone has to point out Tf2’s issues
@@MrIlikepie901 I totally agree with you. Like that's all anyone talks about with tf2 is its problems. I understand why but I feel like I see it so often that it's now just repetitive.
I think people often forget and forgive valve's mishaps because we've seen just how bad the rest of the industry has gotten and valve look like saints in comparison.
Yup
VALVe is an awful company that makes masterpieces that only have annoyances as problems as compared to everyone else
Valve is just a normal company with tendencies to abandon games and hand it over to the community
Valve literally started it
Also, I don't get the Valve cock riding in general.
Weapons are 2 cents on trading sites. This game has way more problems that. Trying to get weapons from crates or the Mann co. Store is very dumb.
I really appreciate that you continue to take valid criticism of your statements to heart. You also hit many nails on the head and really get to the bottom of the problems. I have never seen someone make videos quite like these. It's like we're having an honest to god good discussion here. Please continue uploading.
Now, one thing that really bugged me in this video is how you consider the mantreads/gunboats and bootleggers to not have downsides when you lose out on a secondary or primary weapon by equipping them.
I should have been clearer there that I meant it had no negative status effects/debuffs. It was also paired with other examples so I don't think the argument lives or dies on just that alone. Thanks.
mantread/gunboats not having a downside?? that's really disingenuous, the downside is you lose your secondary shotgun, one of the most reliable weapons in the game. you can earn every weapon in 40 hours of gameplay for free, most people do it. while this system probably has caused people to spend money, I have never personally seen this in thousands of hours of both gameplay and trading.
yey 40 hours that's good, the game that I like is good!!
i have played over 3000 hours and spent 100s of dollars
People pay because of the inventory slots, not for the weapons themselves.
You dont need to pay for any of them to get them.
You mentioned, we couldve gotten a progression unlock system, THERE IS already an unlock system, the milestones and achievements.
*weapons are -usually- ALWAYS worth less than a -Dollar- cent
I bought a lot of the starter packs (from the Mann-Co Store) when I first played due to post isolation retardation and I still regret it.
This entire video falls apart when you realize you can just go on an achievement server type in a single command and get nearly every unlockable
I also think that they did not expect tf2 to become competitive. because in all counterstrike games there were no unlocks like this, it was just skins. Csgo is really big into competitive unlike tf2, which is mostly casual although comp is really fun.
tf2 isn't competitive at all
tf2 is probably the most casual team shooter out there
@@andre-li7qo It's not really one side or the other, TF2 inherently is a competitively casual game because it demands that you communicate and coordinate with your team to do well... while also having casual aspects like unlockable weapons that prevent newbies from accessing TF2's entire arsenal, random spread and crits.
@@op-gogo8911 If it’s a competitive game name a single major tournament without searching it up. While people do play it competitively it was designed as a casual game first and foremost. The maps were designed around teams with 10+ players and generally always have been. You can play any casual game competitively but that doesn’t mean it’s a competitive game.
@@mdwis6106 there has been a competitive scene ever since the game came out. It has never been huge but it's impressive that there are still leagues, LAN events and other forms of competition for a game that came out in 2007 and before esports became mainstream. Esea, one of the biggest online CS leagues supported the game until 2018ish when they stopped supporting it and the community created RGL. A game doesnt have to be made for eSports for it to be a competitive game, it just has to be good when played competitively, like melee for example
I always loved the people who bitch about NFTs ("paying real money for digital items is stupid!!!") and then immediately drop $300 for a TF2 hat, that right there is why I never really took the people who constantly bitch about NFTs seriously at all
Not a good comparison because of the electrical power NFTs take which is the main thing most people dislike them for. It doesn’t take a standard family’s monthly power consumption to buy a tf2 hat
@@Dogy0909"NFTs take up so much energy because... they just do okay!?"
I didn't play on PC for like 8 years as soon as I made an account and played any Valve multiplayer game got more messages from them than anyone on my friendlist
How did I get from learning about Soyjaks to learning about TF2 economics?
Personally I think players gradually unlocking weapons helps reduce fatigue/burnout, and avoid the issues with over choice (having too many weapons to pick from, so you cant decide). Additionally, it helps them learn the ins and outs of weapons as the progress in skill and experience, and what does/doesnt work. And most people swear by stock. I've been playing the game for almost a decade and there are few situations where a stock weapon is outclassed by an unlock. I'm almost a total stock purist, with one or two exceptions. Maybe add a few milestone achievements for each class and tie it to a couple of weapons, so that after 100 hours or so, when you've figured out if you like the game or not and you've gotten decent enough to utilize weapons properly, you have every unlockable for whichever class you play the most.
"If some one were to obtain all weapons, it's very unlikely they would go through the free route."
Dude almost anyone goes the free route. You get a random drop every week and it's usually a unique weapon (the most common, normal weapon that has no value). You can ask on the in-game chat how the system works and chances are some chump with a thousand hours or more will just give a couple weapons to you 'cuz they're worth fractions of cents. The only thing you'll actually buy, as a new player, is a backpack expander that gives your inventory more slots to fit all the free weapons you'll get.
2:53 this is just.... wrong, I've only played TF2 for about a few hours on my laptop, I'm a fairly new player and I already have all the weapons for engineer on my account and starting to quickly go through pryos weapons as well. I do see where u are coming from but saying that u HAVE to buy weapons eventually in tf2 is just wrong.
Also u have to remember that every weapon in TF2 that effects gameplay still isn't better then stock, they are ALL side grades if not WORSE then stock. And most are tied to a very specific way of playing the game.
@Op-gogo 1. Talking about weapons that effect gameplay not stock with camos 2. I'm not surprised that u don't have 100 weapons simply because that depends on what class you are, and how much u actually play that class and whatnot. And that's besides the fact that u don't really NEED all the weapons because again there all just side grades...
@Op-gogo you're just gonna use 1 or 3 weapons tops for each class
@Op-gogo to mix up gameplay, it doesn't necesarilly make the game more fun but it provides another unique experience for the game
@Op-gogo what
@Op-gogo does it need to have a point? why does scout have a melee reskin that is a fish wrapped up in a newspaper?
>play bunch of games on steam
>sell the silly trading cards for 3 bucks
>buy tickets and backpack slot with steam money
>trade to get all the weapons for free
@Op-gogo bots
@Op-gogo they actually get sold
@Richter R. how
back in the days you hade achievementservers to help you unlock the new weapons. each class had a 3 milestones achievements which granted you a weapon. back then there were no hats or other gear!
kinda feels like he forgot about crafting, thats a good way of getting the weapons, for free
only issue with TF2's inventory is the limited backpack space and THAT being monetary
7:45 ...uh, do you actually own any of these weapons?
Equipping the Mantreads or Gunboats means you can't use an offensive/supportive secondary like a shotgun or banner
The Wrangler (which can be obtained for free through achievement milestones) shifts your playstyle as engineer so drastically that you're at such a severe disadvantage if you're caught without your sentry, you're as good as dead without the safety net that is a pistol
The Mad Milk is similar to the Wrangler in which it removes a pretty big safety net, as well as having the downside of not being able to outrange sentries (scout's biggest weakness) with a pistol
The Kritzkrieg (another free achievement item) is a VERY high-risk-high-reward weapon that loses out on the consistency and dependability of Stock
The Flare Gun (literally the first achievement item you can get at pyro) is a great weapon but it still falls short when it comes to fighting against other pyros as well as fighting any enemy underwater
The Bootlegger / Ali Baba's Wee Booties straight up remove access to the demo's primary weapon and force a completely different playstyle upon the user
The Darwin's Danger Shield and Cozy Camper both replace the sniper's secondary, again locking them out of the safety net that is the SMG or the utility that is the Jarate (the second free achievement item for sniper)
I'll give you the Third Degree and the Solemn Vow since those are direct upgrades to the stock options, but honestly if you don't play this game, then you should really stop trying to make videos like this
As far as the basic alternative weapons, it’s been a while but I’m pretty sure I receive them all through play, but the situation you described about people falling for the scam that is the main page is absolutely a possibility. I remember being 15/14 and thinking about doing the same thing, Lord knows are of people that have actually bought items that are less than a cent for 10 bucks.
But like you said, people should be more vigilant about things. TF2 is my favorite game but valve doesn’t get enough shit about loot boxs really.
I would argue that the presence of payment for weapons is not a matter of Pay to win mentality, but it is rather the insiduous management of presenting the weapons present in the shop as being 'better' or 'being more suitable in X scenario'. A F2P nowadays is presented with the store front as a means of enabling the chat system by paying for any sort of item firstly though, not as a gateway to more power to own veterans. I would go as far as calling TF2 the most unfriendly game towards new players in terms of gameplay, UI and general introduction into the community.
Also please, do not introduce the idea of a progression system for weapons in a game like TF2. It will end up building a false sense of security for new players who think that the next weapon they progress to is better than the previous one, like going from Rocket Launcher to Rocket Jumper/Liberty Launcher. Valve is an enabler for most of the rotten things in the industry, we don't need more damage to the game than the dreaded Meet Your Match Update.
Kinda funny how the weapons still have "weapon levels" listed under their names when they serve literally no purpose. When I was a f2p noob many, many years ago I always equipped the weapons that had the highest level.
I disagree.
I have never seen TF2s inventory system as unfair. If you buy a game with cash, it's logical that you get everything unlocked, if not, it's BS. If you get a f2p game, it's logical that something is locked behind DLC, or if you're very lucky, many hours of grinding.
I see no difference between DLC in other games and backpack expanders in TF2, everything else beyond that can be obtained within a relatively fair time period.
The only difference is that DLC is far more entuitive for new players in comparison to the system TF2 sets up, that could just be a quirk of TF2 predating most f2p games that don't open up until after a DLC purchase.
The only possible answer to this that I can think of would be an official store DLC that unrestrics f2p accounts, gives them all the weapons, and maybe a few backpack expanders. It'd be more user friendly, and it'd hopefully be at a more legit price.
You literally can not get every achievement item without buying an inventory expansion.
@richterr.5195 lemme get a time machine to wait out and entire year for basic necessary
@@LazyBuddyBan Christmas happens once a year every year dude. Also it Doesn’t even have to be Christmas it just has to be around Christmas time. It’s not hard to just open the game in December, how fuckin lazy are you.
There are issues with tf2 as a f2p, this ain't it chief.
Each weapon in tf2 can be gotten for less than a cent (us) on scraptf. The issue with being free is that you cannot chat. I got all unique items through gaming, it was after my acc got stolen was when I had to pay for them. Using scrap metal, 9 scrap is worth 3 cents, which means a scrap metal (worth 2 items) is 1/3 of a cent. And it can be gotten easily without paying.
@Op-gogo then idk what else can help you
Love seeing someone else not forgive No Man's Sky. Now even Cyberpunk is getting the royal ass licking all over reddit. So it sadly seems that yes, you can put out a garbage product and improve it if you have enough sales to be worth it.
This video feels like it gives a breath of fresh air to me
Some systems in TF2 really are pretty stupid and concerning when you think about them
Makes you wonder even more how this game managed to "live" for over ten years
I actually quit TF2 back in 2018 due to a gambling addiction I was starting to form. I only spent about $120 in total on the game, which is literally pennies compared to the big dollars that the average player spends, but I've been poor all my life so that $120 is alot of money to me. I think the final straw for me was I bought a $60 Unusual taunt right when the Unusual taunt market crashed, so I sold a taunt I paid 30 keys for for only 11. You don't pay to win in the sense of getting more kills in the match, but you do pay to win in the contest of who looks better. I've thought about coming back to the game for the sake of MVM, however I still can't bring myself to do it. The playerbase for it has only gotten worse in the past 5 years so I know I'm not missing out on much by not playing it. I'll probably never come back to the game until they remake it for Source 2 like they are for CS:GO.
Sir, the developers of No Mans Sky was a small team and lost all their deeta in a flood not long before release, the other companies don't have that excuse
If a flood deletes all your data you should delay your game until it is back in working order. You cant just release an unfinished game and lie about it's features, then blame it on a flood.
@@matsis01 They really couldn't delay it, sony was on their tail, everyone was getting impatient after the hype going on for so long, Internet Historians video explained all the hundus that happened.
That and the guy I forgot the name of that did all those interviews was really not suited for being a spokesman of any kind.
If the world was this simple then games really *would* take their time.
No Man's Sky was an exception, a small indie team, several accidents and lawsuits, overhype, AAA price and AAA expectations. Was there faults? Naturally, they weren't completely innocent, but this is a gray-area and not exactly as clear as later examples of games releasing unfinished.
I consider Hello Games redeemed, because they had to deal with a bunch of disasters. You cannot say the same for other companies.
That and the game is pretty cool.
A broken game is a broken game, regardless of the circumstances. They helped set the precedent that a game can suck on launch, so long as you come back and fix it at some indeterminate point in the future (after you've already got everyones money).
@@ShreddedNerd Black-and-white thinking is for losers who is going to end up either dead or being exploited, you know.
I'm placing a healthy amount of blame on the masses that is allowing these precedents to take place to begin with.
(Many messages and comments of mine contain invisible subtext that I did not bother writing.)
@@nordgeit Sounds like the bully telling you to stop hitting yourself while they grab your arm and use your own fist to punch you in the face. It'd be nice if people used their collective power to boycott, but there are far more people out there than you know and enough that even a minority of players can screw the rest over by setting such a precedent.
You can get all the guns with 1 key now? That's bad? 2 1/2 bucks for most of a games content is something I'm supposed to be mad about?
Yeah, especially considering the entry fee for the game used to be 10x that much.
Bro.. it's a free game, and one where you can get all guns for very cheap if not free. Like, 2 dollars for a classic shooter is not bad dawg.
Pay to play is more apt.
5:38
I remember when i tried tf2 i got kick a lot because of the bot in Saibot so i had to buy weapons from the store to be able to talk and tell those idiots that I'm not one and i so took the pyro pack my main.
If you have to buy something in tf2 only buy 1 weapons unlock pack for the class you like the most
8:51
I have to add i bought the pyro pack on the Mann co. Store and the reason for that is i didn't know the trick with the key
Even better thing is buying a stamp, you support the creators who made the swissmass and scream fortress maps
TF2 fans on their way to defend their game being heavily commodified and have their money syphoned in a giant blackmailing racketeering scheme just because they like the video of the main characters with Joji-Tick Tock playing in the background.
Yep... That's what I can see here and everywhere someone try to criticize the game system
I guarantee everything you've ever bought in your life has had a cheaper option. Are all of those vendors scams too? This is ridiculous 😂
Yeah I don’t understand the logic here (or really any of his logic). I feel like these are all simply observations with conclusions attached as an afterthought.
Yes, clearly the point is to monetize in game items. It’s a f2p game. That’s how they work.
It’s not a scam for things to be expensive or go on sale. A scam is when you’re promised one thing but are given something else after making the purchase.
The thing that drives store engagement in tf2 is item slots and that’s not even touched on here.
I'm not sure if i agree with what you're saying in this video. I think the item system in tf2 is good as I think starting without items when beginning the game is good as it familiarises you with the game and the different characters. Ignoring items there is a lot to learn in TF2 when compared with other shooters and there is a lot of experimentation with different characters without even considering other items. And then the player will be given more items as they play which they can also familiarise themselves with.
I'm not sure if your statement on most items entering the market through crates is true. It is definitely true when considering the special items but i'm not sure how many people are buying the default items as opposed to unlocking them via the random drops or achievements (there are also achievement servers that allow players to unlock all achievement items for free). I suspect most of the items on the market come from bots which farm the random drop items and sell them.
All i want is to have access to the same game other players do, and i shouldn't have to go to a 3rd party website i didn't want to go to to avoid VALVE scamming me, let alone trade offer bot scams...
Thanks for the vid, Nerd!
>acknowledge you were wrong about price of items
>be aware they are less than a cent each
>still complain about the game being p2w
lmao
OINK OINK PIGGY
@@saltedhorsemeat4843 ?
buying weapons is such a non issue if you actually play the game. this video makes 0 sense. i never had to buy a weapon (and you also dont need like 98% of the weapons)
@Op-gogo he was clearly being hyperbolic
@Op-gogo does it matter? they are all just sidegrades. and that's when they dont straight up suck or are situational gimmicks
@Op-gogo then go play something else, jesus. i used to play this game in xbox (no weapons, no hats, no uptades) and the game was still fun as hell. maybe you just dislike the game dude
Free backpack expanders during Christmas is really nice.
Speaking as a grown up big boy, you're malding a tad bit much over 1$ (You can just buy off every unique weapon with a Tour of Duty ticket if you scrounge up a dollar in steam funds. Some CS GO crates are worth well over 5$ and can be earned with barely any playtime, steam cards, etc, etc.). And if you are so lacking in self-control or have a literal gambling addiction, then managing your finances and only trading cosmetics because it'd look nice and not because you need to feel like a virtual travelling merchant makes being sucked into this market (filled to the BRIM with bots and degenerates eitherway) a non-issue.
Speaking as a once naive child however, which doesn't stray far from this game's target audience, the Scam Co store being the first encounter with items can really fool you. Back in 2012, I've spent upwards of 200$ on the OFFICIAL store, a sum that would be worth in total 30$ if done with trade nowadays, especially weapons. Since I wasn't very sure of trading and the stigma surrounding scammers, I also indulged in crates, further introducing a stupid 11 year old into possibly gambling for stupid prizes.
And I agree on stock weapons, that shit sucks. Maybe not due to the stats but because they cast F2Ps into 9 basic playstyles, missing out on various different and fun playstyles derived from item combos.
Oh and fuck weapon skins and fagot-grade cosmetics that artificially inflate the market.
The worst part is that a better system for unlocking weapons already exists, but it is rather rudimentary. It's contracts, namely the pyroland contracts. You get to test out a weapon, do various challenges with said weapon, and once you're done, you get the weapon forever. However, this only applies to 5 weapons. My solution for making a better weapon system would be to increase the inventory from 50 slots to 300 or something like that, remove the option to buy weapons, and expand the contract system to be much more fleshed out and apply to all classes. It isn't perfect, as it can lock you into playing a specific playstyle, but it's far better than the system we have now.
The loot box trend was overwatch but that was inspired by tf2.
Yup
I never unlocked a weapon trough crates xD but two points I say are annoying the limited inventory wich make me cry when I hear from a f2p when they throw away cool rare stuff or the pay to speak thing they need to return to the old state
i have unlocked strange weapons
@@stowlicters8362 Good for you :)
Isn't the "%30 of cut in market stores" a industry standart? Both Playstation and Xbox get %30 of the developer's cuts too, only stores that i know of that go lower than that are EGS and Microsoft Store (PC), trying to incentivize developers to use their garbage front. It's a good thing to want developers payed more but i don't see how this is a Valve issue?
It's an industry issue that they both started and are continuing to contribute to. If they changed their practices, since they are also the industry leader in this regard, then people might actually follow suit, like Apple.
If I may like to say, Titanfall 2 was a great game the only reason it failed was because EA's release date their poor marketing, and also because modern gaming often takes for granted alot of games which were actually good and had alot of player freedoms and gameplay mechanics that were better then even today first person shooters.
It wasn't Titanfall 2 which failed gamers it was both corporate executives & modern gaming who failed Titanfall 2 and took for granted a piece of treasure which was a blessing that went unnoticed and looked down upon in contempt.
TF2 is so fun and balanced.
Funny how you never touched the topic of “Stock isn’t useless.” Argument.
It’s almost like Stock Weapons are generally well balanced, and fun! It’s like the weapon options where added in later!? :0!!!!!
Genuinely. Stock weapons are a great. Even when put against the version with extra stats.
Yes there are some that are absolutely upgrades compared to stock, but that doesn’t outright negate stock weapons.
There are a few very specific examples, like snipers bow, and the ubersaw. But generally most have more downsides..
brass beast? Move slower while raved up, for more damage. Natasha less damage for slowing people down.
Mantreads/Gunboats (one you said that didn’t have a downside) takes away Soldiers Shotgun that is useful against Pyros.
Quickybomb launcher? Halfs the amount of stickies you can put on the ground for a faster fire/ reload rate.
Demo’s sheilds take away the stick bomb launcher for more movement options. While the stickybomb launcher lets you jump around, being already a movement option.
Yes, there is a problem with the Mann Co. store being a scam. Yes, it is very predatory for valve to continue the lootbox route, instead of using the contractor for its intended use.
But outright ignoring a huge argument against your “tf2 is predatory”, is very deceptive.
Complain about the cosmetics, and scummy ways valve wants you to spend money all you want, but acknowledge that Stock isn’t useless.
did you watch the vid? it's the first counter-point in the list
commenter doesnt actually play tf2 and just watches youtube videos about it
I didn't initially agree with you in your first video. I agree now.
I think why people are so fast to disagree with you on this (or at least this is why I did) is because it's a hard reality to accept. In many ways, Valve is an amazing company. They do good stuff. They innovate. And nowadays, most AAA game companies are pretty shit, with Valve for the most part being an exception.
I personally just have always thought of Valve to be the only good game company out there. It felt like a sort of "safe haven" for me. A garuntee that there will at least be a chance of an actually good, high quality game, with no strings attached. A company with some of the best morals of all of them.
Their games were also a huge part of my childhood.
So, it hurts to look back and truly accept what they have really done here for me.
This was my reason that I initially disagreed. Denial.
You forget the game used to cost money. You used fo have to buy the game and the weapons were way more expensive than they are now. The games really high effort for free albeit outdated. If you enjoy the free game u buy some hats I like the system of finding items over time I remember when I used to get excited over a new item drop and if every item was granted to me when I installed it (2010) I would have probably been overwhelmed. Yeah the system hasnt aged perfectly but there are way worse games that cost money and are still full of micro transactions that are not even tradable. I agree with you about how game companys blow but I dont see how thats relevant to a decade free game. It sounds like you still dont know much about the game but you want to sound smart
Regarding the mann co store scammy prices, you have to realize that money has different value to different people. Anyone that thinks that 5 bucks for some weapons that you can get for less than 3 cents is a scam will not buy them and will stick to the free methods or trading. For others, 5 bucks means absolutely nothing to them so they see no problem with spending 5 bucks to get those items directly from the in-game store, without the hassle of looking up trade sites and how to trade.
This p2w "problem" is not really a problem conisidering that the most effective weapons are generally the stock ones, and the sidegrades that impact the gameplay the most are achievement items which can be unlocked easily.
Let's not forget that (And I'm saying this as an experienced player) some weapons such as the crossbow or ubersaw are integral to the meta of an entire class, Medic.
A class mastry system that use the contract system to unlock weapons. Will solve this problem imo.
How long have you played the game.
Keep doing more valve related videos
More egregious, this is a game I paid full price for in 2007 doing this.
The only weapon you showed that is a direct upgrade is the third degree. Solemn vow I think swings slower.
if everything on the mann co store were cheaper it would directly affect the price of the item market. You're creating a new weapon without play time i.e. disrupting the normal influx of items that would be there otherwise. This doesn't matter for weapon prices, but scrap and everything else, so just pooled item stock inflation.
If you had 100,000 new players come in and they all started creating weapons from the mann co store, or if all of these were just given and untradeable, it would detract from the value of the tf2 market as a whole, or flood it. Instead they actively enrich it just by playing, even if they don't buy anything. Valve planned it pretty flawlessly in that regard. Game's "dying" because they neglect it and actively sabotage it in the name of stopping bots. I haven't seen a more resilient community, and the player economy and f2p entrance fee is a big reason for that, on top of being a solid game. Most games from that long ago are dead or maintained by a community of people who loved it, see demon souls on rpcs3
Ever since the inclusion of the iron bomber community efforts have been horrible and ruined the game's aesthetic and soul. csgo emulation was a horrible direction, but it's here to stay.
The text chat ban for free to plays was in response to the bots spamming chat with racial slurs and other offensive language.
I don't think it had anything to do with applying more pressure to F2P players to buy something from the mann co store. Although it certainly had that effect.
None of the monetization practices in TF2 are a problem. They're all very generous.
The problem has been that, since the switch to it being free to play, and adding the ability to earn actual money by grinding and selling items, it heavily incentivizes bot farms and cheaters, mostly in third world countries, where hard labor might earn you $5-20 a day. That's where "play to earn" games have always flourished.
Until they fix that fundamental dangerous combination (f2p + p2e), there will always be tons of cheaters and bots.
before you spend money on keys (2.50 from where i am) for weapon you should buy a vintage lvl weapon for 0.18 cents in the comunity market sooooo no crates are here for special Hats / Custome Weapons things like Paints and strangeefiers and killstreaks wich are mostly also cheap in the comunity market
I'm surprised nobody mentioned how you can just craft TF2 weapons using some of the random drops you get. In a sense TF2 does have an unlock system but sometimes you get to choose what items you unlock when you get enough drops to do so.
The reason anyone started spending money in this game is to have a larger inventory, not to get weapons. Getting weapons for free is also so much easier than buying from a f2p perspective. I mean, why buy a ton of weapons you don't even know how to use all at once when you can regularly get them for free while learning the game?
I don't disagree with the fact that Valve is not your friend and they do try to get your money in less than fair ways like with loot boxes and we should stay vigilant whenever they try to pull shit. At the same time I feel like a lot of people (at least me) are fatigued with the aggressive monetization present in modern games and among games that still have an active community TF2 has one of the fairest models for obtaining items that effect gameplay out there so it feels out of place seeing videos kicking tf2 when its down being so ignored by Valve as a whole at this point.
It is true that a lot of TF2 players have invested in the game with money, but I'd be remiss to say its due to people buying weapons when they're so easily obtainable, even though Valve does attempt to get people to pay for them when they don't have to.
Perhaps TF2 would be better if it just had a progression system for obtaining all of its weapons and you couldn't purchase them even if you wanted to. Its easy to be clouded in nostalgia for this game that I enjoy so much combined with the fact that I don't have the perspective of a different time. I haven't played any multiplayer game with a progression system like you mentioned as it seems to be a relic of the past. However I also can't deny the enjoyment I got from getting random weapons as drops and using some of the duplicates to craft weapons I wanted.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that saying TF2 is P2W comes across strange given the current gaming landscape where monetization is pushed so heavily while in TF2 its so more lax that one could play the game without even realizing they could have paid for some type of advantage. I think the fact that tf2 doesn't "feel" P2W despite having avenues allowing for it says a lot more about other multiplayer games than it does about TF2 and maybe that's the problem.
Just to note: I'm not really trying to refute what you said, rather I'm trying to explore these ideas by writing this comment if that makes sense.
I honestly don't understand why all un-skinned common versions of all weapons aren't just always available like stock, maybe still unlocked by playtime by class/achieves (topteserve the learning curve or something)
the game is hard enough to pick up and play now add 200 weapons for a fresh install to choose from
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 ok, then achievement lock them or something, I just want to have one permanent version of every weapon.
I'm surprised you didn't mention that most weapons can be easily crafted, unless you say it later in the video and I look like a dick.
@Op-gogo well yeah, but that is part of the fun. You can get almost all the weapons by playing the game, even if it takes some planning and work to get it done.
Maybe I shouldn't have said easily, but I still think it's not hard.
Fucking preach. Valve have always had critical flaws, including in their games, yet people have been memed into a state where apparently Valve's only flaw is that they don't le update le TF2 le count to 3 anyone? thanks for the updoots
Honestly I feel like TF2s model in practice actually wound up more so being a very stupidly complicated version of like the nintendo mobile game monetization scheme....
Its a "free trial" where you just don't get all the gameplay features- with a 2.50 dollar buy in to get the full game with only cosmetic mtx to bug you.
Which is such a bizarre model that I wonder how tf it works- but perhaps the complexity of it all getting new players to get invested in more than just the weapons.. *is* the point? I wouldn't know lol I have paid a net of like 5 dollars into tf2 over my 8k hours of playtime lol.
2:39 Scoutjak
Also I'm really glad you also brought up the No Man's Sky thing.
I do _not_ care how good the game is, I will always judge it by it's launch. No Man's Sky. Andromeda. Fallout 76. Cyberpunk. 2042. I don't care how good their meat-riding fans claim their holy product is, how they launched is beyond unacceptable and I will never play those games or support their developers ever again. One thing we as gamers refuse to do is understand that if we don't pay for a product, then our voices will be heard. Vote with your wallet. Stop being a Redditor Soyjak.
i agree, mostly because the game has become just that, gambling.
since valve stopped actively working on a game that is supposed to be a live service it has been losing what made it enjoyable because of the cheater problem and boiled down to waiting until next update to spend money on cosmetic cases.
the community is trying to keep it alive via community servers and what not in hopes valve actually does something to fix the game, i only wish people were actually vocal about the issues rather than praise the company for the new copy pasted hat that comes out every 5 months or so.
Be warned, a massive "thesis" of random thoughts and garbage is below. It is also very opinionated. You have been warned. Also before anyone says "why did you do this" I did it because it was fun researching this and thinking about this debate. Yes I had fun doing this. I'm weird I know. I finished typing it and youtube wont let me comment it all in one go so go to the replies if you want to read the rest.
I agree on a few things, but disagree on others.
I will preface this by saying I started playing TF2 in 2019, I am a free to play [or rather I consider myself a free to play and I'll explain later why I am technically not], and I consider it to be a great game both in its design and in its "funness" [as well as my friends who dislike it acknowledge it being a good game so I'm going to assume that general consensus is that its a good game.]
I also feel like a timeline of the game is important.
Timeline:
October 10, 2007 - Release date [only stock weapons]
April 29, 2008 - Gold Rush Update [First addition of new weapons and the item loadout system which allows for you to equip said weapons. The method of obtaining these weapons were through the achievement unlock system, one for each third of the medic specific achievements. I may be mistaken but I believe this is when steams "inventory" system started to exist, in that you had items in your inventory or backpack and could equip them because of it. In this update they also stated that they would add 3 new weapons for each class as they did for medic which would be unlocked in a similar fashion.]
April 20, 2009 - Patch [Added the ability to delete items from backpack, there's a few more backpack updates but it is note worthy they made it impossible to acquire the achievement items again after they got deleted]
May 21, 2009 - Sniper Vs Spy [Added the item drop system, which has been changed and tweaked over the years but essentially rewards players for playing the game with new items similar to games like Dont Starve Together. These items can be [albeit rarely] cosmetic in nature, but most of the time are unskinned weapon side grades (some weapons are in fact considered direct upgrades to stock in a few scenarios which I will address later).]
December 17, 2009 - WAR! Update [Added the ability to craft weapons and cosmetics among other things.]
September 30, 2010 - Mann-Conomy Update [Added 65 new items, cosmetics, weapons, mini games, tools, crates, etc. Added the ability to trade weapons, added microtransaction system and the Mann Co Store. This update also added the addition of set bonuses, in that using a certain combination of items and cosmetics granted a buff to the player.]
October 8, 2010 - Patch [Added crafting recipes for cosmetic items related to set bonuses. This gave people the ability to obtain the set bonuses without having to pay, trade, or get incredibly lucky on a free cosmetic drop for the ability to use the set bonus. The reason why I did not address the items being released alongside the set bonuses is because they were made craftable upon release.]
December 17, 2010 - Australian Christmas [Expanded backpack sizes by 100 slots and added the backpack expander.]
June 23, 2011 - Free to play [The game became free to play, making all previous players premium accounts. All accounts or players who get the game afterwards would be free-to-play accounts unless they do something to obtain premium account status.]
July 10, 2013 - Set Bonuses Removed [Set bonuses were removed (or rather no longer gave buffs other than cosmetic calling cards or particle effects). While most items could be crafted, traded for, or bought they were usually regarded as overpowered. The argument could be made (and should be made, and probably was made) that locking a buff behind a cosmetic purchase was pay to win. That being said the set bonuses were both overpowered and seen as essentially pay-to-win. It could be argued that since the items to acquire the set bonus (which is overpowered) is not pay to win as it can be obtained via crafting, although I do not view this argument as a good one.
December 20, 2013 - Smissmas 2013 [This update started the trend of giving out stockings to all players who played during December (or rather anyone who opened the game during December). Stockings included free cosmetics, paints, name tags, item tags, and most importantly in my opinion of course a backpack expander. Backpack expanders increase the size of the users backpack by 100 slots.]
There is probably a lot more and I'm not going to include the bot crisis that is going on in the game (which is a great example of the point you made in this video to tell Valve when they are being bad, that they are being bad).
Personal take:
It is scummy of Valve [despite how much I like them] to include pay to win aspects in their game, especially during the period in which it wasn't free. Similar [not directly similar] to how CSGO went wherein they implemented the systems of a free to play game and then swapped to free to play [instead of the other way around] which I guess could be seen as a way to either test if going free to play was safe in a monetary way, or if they wanted to see if hypothetically a free to play microtransactional system was more lucrative. While I don't personally view the current system as being "pay-to-win" I view it as a microtransactional monetary system in which you can pay for skins, or in absurd cases unlocks. I agree that it is scummy to have a system set in place wherein new people can buy weapons for dollars of money. While it isn't a good argument to use ones own experience or opinions as a basis for why I am essentially okay with the current system in place, I feel like it is the main factor for why I view it as a microtransactional system instead of a pay-to-win system. In fact, the only people I have heard say that the game is pay-to-win have been players who are new to the game assuming that everyone else playing the game bought the weapons they are using. This confuses me because nobody who is not new to the game would pay for the weapons (they may have when they were new at one point) and even if they did they have played the game enough to where it is an incredibly safe assumption to say they earned it without money. Essentially, the same group of people who would be saying [again from personal experience from when I have played the game, seen in game chat, etc] that the game is pay-to-win would also be the ones most likely to "pay-to-win" (which for a lot of cases should be considered pay-to-lose, especially when combined with the fact that the players are new). The players who would be destroying the new players are inherently not pay-to-win because they are not new players (and have learned how to play the game better) [except in the rare case of a broken particle on a cosmetic hat which bugs with the sniper scope semi-obscuring the view of a sniper trying to counter-snipe. This is a bug though, not an intended feature. One which only the sweatiest of tryhards abuse as well.] Another reason why I don't view the ability to buy unlocks (albeit almost exclusively in TF2, note the almost as I'll make a comparison later) as pay-to-win is because majority of the unlocks are side grades with a few exceptions. Medic's primary and melee are usually considered direct upgrades, I say considered because there are actual downsides to using them but they are typically not balanced well at least with stock in mind. One item which is genuinely a direct upgrade to stock is the Third Degree. There are no downsides when using this weapon in comparison to stock, it is objectively a direct upgrade. Most items are viewed as side-grades by the community, a few as upgrades, and a lot of them as direct downgrades when compared to stock. Weapons are intended with the purpose of being a different way of playing, as opposed to being a direct buff or something that is inherently better [albeit again, some are not balanced well.] Each weapon unlocks a slightly different playstyle, with some weapons being more different than others, and having a combination of weapons completely change the way you play the class [battle engineer, demoknight, etc]. This creates subclasses, which are derived from certain playstyles of people. Some people view subclasses as item sets rather than mindsets but personally I view it as a playstyle. I can play battle engineer regardless of what weapons I use. I can play demoknight [admittedly with less efficiency] regardless of what weapons I use. I guess it could be seen as unlocking new characters or toys to play with, which leads me to the item drop system. I agree that it is somewhat scummy that the inventory of free to plays is limited to 50 slots with there being [if this random reddit post I found is right because I'm not going to count after looking through the entire patch notes history, I already put too much effort into this for no good reason other than maybe boredom and enjoyment from it] 160 items excluding reskins with like 20 of them being stock weapons. That being said though I find it un-scummy that they give out 100 slots a year to all players during christmas. Not to mention that on halloween they give out an insane amount of halloween cosmetics for free for doing challenges [all of which are free to access by all players during Octoberish.] Regardless of that my personal view on the item system for TF2 in its current state is that it is actually good for new players. Rather than bombarding players with an insane amount of weapons and customization, they give the player time to learn the basics by limiting their available toys. As a way of adding new content for the player they "unlock" new items for the player around an average of 8 times per week. These items could be cosmetics but are almost always weapons. This has probably led to many players like me, having sentimental attachment to our first set of new weapons (even if it was random). For clarification I'm talking about weapons, not skins or specific instances of weapons in inventories. The game trickles new content for you to explore despite being incredibly old. Circling back to the medic weapons, the example you used in this video was actually the Ubersaw. A weapon given on achievements, or by random chance during item drops. As shown in the timeline earlier of patch notes, it was one of the first side-grades added to the game. It was added before the Mann Conomy update which enabled players to buy weapons from the Mann Co Store. I would argue that the purpose of the weapons existing is not for the purpose of providing a pay to win mechanic, but rather for an interesting side-grade which can because of "recent" updates be acquired sooner via spending real money. In fact crafting exists as a combatant to the randomness of item drops which again was added before the Conomy update. In the case of a hypothetical scenario in which two perfectly equal skilled players were in a perfectly equal environment, there aren't any cases in which I can view one weapon being objectively better than the other. Maybe the crossbow medic would beat the syringe gun medic if both players were new and didn't know how to dodge well, but they also wouldn't know how to predict movement well either. Most of the time if I think about this view it could be attributed to one player winning because a certain weapon synergizes well with a certain playstyle that is enhanced on a certain map. A crusader crossbow would be better at long open sight line maps than a stock syringe gun [while the opposite would be true for close quarters maps].
In my personal case I joined in 2019. I joined because I wanted to play spy, and so I did. I unlocked a lot of random items, some of which were for spy and some of which weren't. I worked on achievements for certain weapons I wanted, or just enjoyed playing the game and getting better. At around 20 hours of playtime on Spy [and basically the game total] I could beat my friend who was a 1000 hour spy try-hard [this isn't a flex, I just remember this moment well because of how absurd it was which is how I know the next sentence]. I was using an ambassador, YER, and deadringer if I recall correctly, with no items donated or bought or traded for etc. After a bit more hours I started to branch out and try other classes. I specifically remember a moment on Upward wherein I saw an engineer using a wrangler and a rescue ranger to play really defensively. I asked them how to acquire such items and they told me I had to get them by random chance. [I never recall a popup from Valve or TF2 telling me to buy items, moreover I only remember people telling me to do achievements, go to free item servers [which I viewed as cheating in regards to the progression, and since you didn't mention it in the video I'll explain that free item servers are servers that give you all the milestone achievements as well as other random holiday or promotional achievements that give you items. This means any new player can join the server, type !items and instantly get all the non-random progression items] or trade for them. One person in particular who I asked sent me a trade offer [which was just them giving me free items] because they saw I was new and I was interested in the items they were using. They gave me their rescue ranger [which wasn't even a normal one, it was a strange one] a wrangler, and a free ~6$ stock wrench skin with the note "Enjoy learning engie". As I was playing I can't recall a time when I died to someone and it wasn't clearly my fault (which is part of TF2's "hit or miss"/"win or lose" game design philosophy which Sniper mostly defies to the point where devs have stated if they were to remove a class it would be sniper without a doubt). Upon nearing a backpack limit I decided to learn about how to no longer be free-to-play. I am incredibly stingy with money and essentially refused to actually buy something from the store. It was near a steam sale [I forget if christmas or summer] but I had some money ready to buy another game. I realized that I could [and I did do this] buy a key from the Mann Co Store (as it can be sold for almost the same price on the steam market place) making me get premium for only a few cents (which I sold a few trading cards steam gave me to make up for). Some of my other friends who started playing during the bot crisis (when free to plays got muted so bots couldn't spam music [it did not help and it should be undone]) decided to spend a spare dollar on a map stamp (which goes directly to the creator of the map) and got premium. Out of every friend I have shown the game I have not heard "pay to win" from them nor have I seen anyone including my friends quite literally ever buy weapons [only skins]. Nor have I ever heard of players using crates to unlock weapons [again only skins].
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't agree with calling the game is "pay-to-win" because players can bypass the natural progression system to unlock side-grades [which sometimes aren't balanced properly, but not on purpose or for the desire to make the game "pay-to-win"] because that doesn't really feel like "pay-to-win". It feels like a microtransactional "pay-to-skip-progression". Ideally weapons that you unlock shouldn't be objectively stronger than the ones new players have. Just because the side-grades are better for certain playstyles doesn't [in my eyes] inherently make the game "pay-to-win". If we treat the weapons as they are intended to be side-grades, in an ideal world said side-grades would be perfectly balanced (which is impossible based on the map and different gamemodes etc.) If each unlocked weapon was balanced perfectly to be equal [not greater nor lesser] than stock weapons would you still call it pay-to-win? Especially with every weapon being acquirable without microtransactions, albeit with much more effort than pressing the purchase button? I'd argue that the main reason people [maybe including you] consider TF2 to be pay-to-win is not because of the systems in place or the fact that you can buy the weapons, but rather the view of un-equality among the weapons, that one weapon is inherently better. Certain weapons are designed to be better at certain things than other weapons, but they aren't designed with the intent to be broken or better than the others objectively. While it may be better to have a backscatter when behind someone, it is inherently worse to be using one when in-front. The argument that side-grades have times where they are better than stock fails to realize that there are times where they are worse than stock. You could argue that having the choice to swap OFF of a side-grade can prevent these "worse than stock" moments from happening when using a weapon, and they can. But that is the fault of the inherent casualness of TF2, not the side-grades themselves.
Now hear me out, League of Legends. Don't worry the throw up bucket is over there. Do you view League of Legends as a pay-to-win game? Each character can be and is naturally unlocked by the player throughout their playtime [although instead of giving the unlock, the game gives a discount to buy the unlock with in game non-premium locked currency which can be bought with actual money if wanted]. Each unlocked character has their ups and downs. Certain maps they are better. In certain gamemodes they are better. Each unlock presents a new playstyle. Some of the characters are directly counters to others. One of the few differences is that characters cannot be swapped mid game (due to how competitive the game is) and are locked in at the start. Certain competitive modes in TF2 also do this. Another similarity is that skins can be crafted very rarely at the expense of free items. Both games are free, and monetized via microtransactions. Maybe I'm wrong in assuming this but majority of players who play League view it as a skill-to-win game and it's even featured in some of their advertisements. If you ask anyone who plays League whether or not it is pay-to-win I'm convinced 99% will say no, not that general consensus makes something objective of course. TF2 has a similar style of monetization, but also has some thought and care put into it. I prefer the fact that TF2 gives unlocks randomly by play time rather than how well you did in a game [especially as a new player] or how many absurd seasonal quests you do. Maybe I'm wrong but yeah sorry for my massive thesis on why I don't view TF2 as a pay-to-win game. Just my personal opinion, which is most likely very flawed and stupid. Only saying this as a means of exchanging opinions but feel free to flame me anyone who reads this.
Oh also another point I forgot to add is that you are able to have a test run with any weapon in the game. The test run lasts two weeks, and after the two weeks you are able to do another test run [of the same item if you want or a different one]. I've seen some people use this while they were waiting for item drops to play with an item they really wanted etc.
On a practical level, the problems you've listed are tuned in a way that makes them non-issues
Most unlockable weapons are downgrades, some are sidegrades, many of the weapons are reskins of stock or unlockable weapons
This only increases the likelihood of quickly obtaining a complete set of functional items through drops
Still, in principle, they've opened the floodgates for other companies to crank up the numbers to the point where their games are genuinely unplayable
It seems harsh to go after the developer that opened pandora's box when the very same developer has practiced the greatest amount of moderation ever since
Just because they aren’t the worst doesn’t mean they aren’t bad.
Any company implementing shitty microtransactions that are pay of to win should be criticized.
Finally someone that sees why I hate and Dislike a lot the horrible tf2 weapon system.
And When I mention it someone says "But they are just hats" and I think... "Why so you think I talk about the hats??? I'm talking about the stupid and random pay for open this box and get a random powerful or weird weapon!"
play game, get weapon, simple as.
This ain't it Chef
TF2 has many flaws, but weapon unlock system is not it.
While stock loadouts not always suit the player, they are the all reliable. All the unlocks are side grades that may be fun and rewarding for different playstyles but not superior outright, besides few irrelevant outliers that are only better than the default on paper.
Besides it's a fucking 15 year old game with players younger than the game itself.
@Op-gogo then maybe tf2 just.... isn't the game for you
@Op-gogo so tf2 was boring back then withou the unlocks?
@Op-gogo Than it's not a game for you.
@Op-gogo "i dont like the game so it must mean it's mid"
Gunboats, Manntreads and Ali baba wee booties have no downsizes??? What????? You litterally trade away a secondary/primary weapon to use it. There ws a lot of times where I was died because I didn't have a secondary. Same with the flare gun, wrangler, sniper secondaries and mad milk. The only one I agree it's a direct upgrade is the solemn vow, but it's a medic weapon, a class that isn't great on combat.
And nobody likes the third degree, it's considered the worst of the pyro weapons in the community
Tf2 is not a flawless game and there are a lots of things you can critizise about it (sniper being kinda OP, limited slots in the inventory, bots, etc) but this isn't it chief.
!giveitems
12:04 kids these days can't handle their bugs.
Honestly I agree with this video now that I look at it. although the unlockable weapons on every single class aren’t really needed except the medic, engineer, and spy. Their default weapons are horrible
engineer's and spy's stock loadouts are fine. you can get a ubersaw for medic with achievements. i dont really see how his tf2 is p2w argument makes sense because weapons really dont grant you an unfair advantage in this game and you will unlock them for free anyways
@Op-gogo but you dont play with only stock. You get unlocks frequently.
@Op-gogo You use them because the unlockables can be fun even if they may suck. Still better than just sticking to stock
Engie and spy have really strong stock loadouts
Saying that it isn't pay to win because you can get it for free after spending shit tones of time is the same as saying unlocking heros in a game after years of grinding is okay even though paying unlocks them instantly
Bro it literally takes 40 hours
I personally never had an issue with the unlockable items; I got lots and lots of them from pickups and never spent a penny. You can also sell trading cards and item pickups and use that to get items you want. I'm not trying to come across like I'm trying to downplay your criticisms at all though, just sharing why it never seemed like an issue from my point of view as just another player. I love things like Bonk Soda, the Sandman, the various Heavy edibles, and Demoman's charger and melee weapons. I played it on and off since before it went free to play, probably around 200 total.
Why do you think I'm sat here still playing the xbox version when I can?
Valve have gone out of their way to sabotage the PC version and left it in an absolute shit state. They created the bot problems by making the game F2P, created the abusive gambling abusive on the back of that, in house understaffing practices and constant patching of the game have created a buggy unoptimised spaghetti code mess, and destroyed the servers by forcing in unwanted and unnecessary matchmaking systems. How to ruin your game in 10 easy steps by Valve. Couldn't just leave it alone and let people enjoy it. I remember a time when I desperately wanted a PC good enough to play it because the Xbox 360 version got no new maps or weapons. And now I'm glad it didn't. Well, some more maps would be nice.
tf2 wouldve been dead 10 years ago had it not received the changes it did
but yeah have fun playing the shitty xbox version that uses the dogwater 2007 version
I think it’s funny to compare the two.
But if your actually serious then it’s stupid. For example the big deference is why there purchased.
The nfts are sold on nothing but the hope they’ll become more valuable.
While tf2 items are bought just people like the game.
AI pathing issues.... poor No Man's Sky...
7:10 achievements ARE unlock challenges.
No man's sky still sucks, yeah it works good, but still feels empty and soulless, everything interesting is just written in text
malding
Good video.
Nah, weapon system ain't it, chief. Weapons really are easy to obtain for no money at all. Real problem are the lootboxes, cause they essentially are gambling, and TF2 was one of those games that popularized them. I dunno why you have to double down on this weapon system argument.
great video
Not pay to win
Stop bringing up No Man's Sky. It was perfect on release, I will fight you on this. I don't care how shredded you are, meet me behind the inventory at 8 tonight.
How about playing Overwatch instead, xD, manz, still waiting for you to break down why Apex Sucks actually or video why Insurgency Sandstorm proximity chat is revolutionary, maybe bash Siege?
Another day, another bunch of fools who think the companies who makes 6-7 figures off them care if they white knight their products.
Edit: I'm glad you made this vide despite all that.
wow what a reach. you could have stopped when you admitted you didn't know what you were talking about.
you are wrong evne in the correction video no wonder that so few of your subs watch
Valve taking a 30% cut is why I won't buy any games through Steam. In fact, I won't buy a game through any of the storefronts. If it's not direct to the studio it's a pass from me.
First