This video was a lot of effort to make as the dragoncult is very poorly documented online, with some mistakes here and there which seems to have bled into several lore videos online. Hope you enjoyed it! Just as I said at the end of the video, huge thanks to weather dragon from the UESP who gave input for the video! A link to his socials is in the video description
You should totally check out my longer comment and tell me if you think I'm right. The divines *are* the animal deities, and they match perfectly. The fox is the only one thats a little bit of a stretch, but I provided a good explanation for that
this makes me wonder more about miraak's betrayal of the cult, and think more about his mirroring of alduin's betrayal of his own destiny. if the cult were more akin to tyrannical, then would that make miraak more morally grey? especially in his mantra stating "and when the world shall listen. and when the world shall see. and when the world remembers. that world shall cease to be." but we never get an elaboration on what he meant :(
The animal deities seem to reflect the divines. The dragon is obviously akatosh, the owl is julianos, the wolf is mara, the fox is obviously lorkhan, the snake is arkay (i say this because apparently he "gifted" mortals with limited lifespan by "sacrificing" his own mortality, coming straight from the priest of arkay in falkreath) , given that the moth is about frailty and beauty, Dibella fits most well. The bear is about duty and challenge, so that seems like Zenithar, the patron of Workers, but akatosh is also about duty so idk for sure with that, hawk is kyne, and stendarr could be the whale, because at that point in time ransom was probably considered a type of mercy, and if the people *being* ransomed prayed to the whale, its definitely stendarr, god of mercy. Unrelated note, talos is absolutely an incarnation of lorkhan. Lorkhan was the god of mortality, and talos is the god of men, a human who rose to god status. Lorkhan was cursed to be reincarnated as mortal infinitely after his death at the hands of the other 8 divines, which could also be part of the betrayal the atmorans associated with the snake deity, and you know, the sayings about snakes and foxes.
The main issue with drawing parallels like that is they don't always fit.. While all other parallels there pair correctly (let's just ignore A(O)rkey for now), the parallel fails with the Bear & Zenithar, as Zenithar was an elven god, not Nordic. The bear became known as Tsun, Stendarr's (Stuhn's) brother & fellow shield thane of Shor. Zenithar is one of the scant few Cyrodilic gods that isn't of Nordic origin. The only other one being Akatosh (at least by conventional understanding, as there's plenty to tie Akatosh as being of Nordic origin too). So yeah, Zenithar is the only one that's 100% elven in origin of the 9. Yes 9!
@nonso3396 I agree that there are 9 deities, idk if you saw my personal belief that talos was one of Lorkhan/Shor's human reincarnations, but it is what I believe given they are both the god of mortality/mortal men
@nonso3396 regarding Stendarr and Tsun, you're probably right, but in my opinion it's also possible that they could be two different culture's interpretation of the same being, which the best real world example would be the greek and roman pantheons, im not gonna preach it like its absolute but it's definitely a possibility.
Am imperialised pantheon made from an agglomeration of Nordic and elven gods. Because the Imperial religion has a definite start & origin that we know of, unlike others that have pretty much existed since the dawn era from their own history with the gods. The Imperial religion was formed by Queen Allessia after their victory as a compromise between the two opposing religions. This was for several reasons- 1. Even though they were now free, their people had always worshipped the gods of their elven slave masters. Suddenly having everyone abandon their faith to follow a new state religion adopted from a foreign land (Skyrim) would have its owm complications. 2. Furthermore the Nords were not Allessia's only allies. She also had several aylied lords who allied with them. They would've been particularly offended by this sudden overhaul to a pantheon in direct opposition to theirs. 3. And vice versa. Keeping the religion of the slave masters they were just liberated from would be an insult both to the allies (heavily opposed to that religion) and the actual gods that answered their prayers sending actual demigods & Nordic allies to help. So she had to compromise by taking gods from both pantheons (well, mainly Nordic, but not exclusively). Then she removed the more racist & blood thirsty aspects of these gods. Which is the main reason why Imperial gods seem like watered down versions of their Nordic counterparts. Because those Nordic gods were mostly blood thirsty warriors who hated elves & their gods. Likewise Auriel who himself led the elves & their pantheon against Shor. So these gods had to be altered to fit their more cosmopolitan ideals. The warlord elven god Auriel was depicted as the dragon of time imbued with the spirit of man, hence two heads as a dragon & man. Kyne was no longer the warrior widow of Shor & goddess of nature, but became a much gentler element goddess. Shor could not even be openly acknowledged due to how anti-elven he was & remained the spirit of human undertaking - Shezarr the forgotten sibling. There's connections to be made with the spirit of man in Akatosh, but that's whole other can of worms. So that my friend is how the Imperial religion was formed. It hasn't always existed as the religion it is, but was rather formed by combining two much older religions tuning it to fit the society they wanted
@@hillarydana3057i see it every week, and every week I feel bad about not having done it yet. But the upcoming lorebook for betrayal of the second era is said to feature some plant lore so im waiting for that
@@ImperialKnowledge that’s ok also I’d do a separate video on the plant and the fungi cause fungi aren’t plants they are more related to animals than plants they literally inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide!💛
I think the only small thing you got wrong in this video was that you said "each" dragon priest gained a mask, but that was reserved for the eight highest ranking priests in the cult, the named ones we meet in game. I do love the dragon priests and the dragon cult as a piece of lore, my brother and I obsessed over it while writing our "civil war on Solstheim" piece for Teslore.
Lore, the very soul of the Elder Scrolls and the greatest reason we explore the world thereof. It has also become the way of a Bethesda game. The argument of ancient nords and later ancient nords could be reworded, prehistoric nords and ancient nords. The one with lost knowledge and the other who preserved that knowledge.
The Animal Totems and the Nordic Pantheon may not be one-to-one, but belief makes reality when it comes to the Divines. If the Atmorans came to believe that this "Sheor" was the same as their Fox, then that becomes true. This belief making reality can be seen most clearly with Akatosh. Akatosh indisputably exists, but was an artificial creation and his constituant parts indisputable exist as well (Lorkhan, Auriel)
Surprised you didn't bring up the Skaal when talking about the evolution of Nordic religion. Since the All Maker and the more animistic beliefs of the Skaal seems to be a lot closer to the worship of animal gods of the proto Nords then the Nordic pantheon that came after.
With the clear Nordic inspiration behind the Nords and their culture, if you pay attention, or knows anything about it, you can clearly see the inspirations from the Norse Gods in these animal gods. Some have traits from more then one.
Like Joe Rogan, the Dragon Priests of Skyrim believed in ...Dragons. only difference was, no one ever mocked a dragon priest for that. they were however relentlessly mocked for many other things, such as their really lousy retirement package. second only to Molag Bal.
How good man, cheers. I translate 3 Australian Aboriginal stories for work and been reading heaps of dnd. You just helped make heaps of things come together haha not just ES
Quite the extensive video on the Dragon Cult. Thinking about it, it does indeed make sense for it to change over the centuries given all the different climate and political developments. A lot more depth to it provides great fascination.
Feldir the Old: Hold, Alduin on the Wing! Sister Hawk, grant us your sacred breath to make this contract heard! Begone, World-Eater! By words with older bones than your own we break your perch on this age and send you out! You are banished! Alduin, we shout you out from all our endings unto the last!"
The hawk is definitely kyne, the greybeards state that kyne gifted the nords the thuum, and that the dragonborn gets to break the rules because hes an incarnation of akatosh
I wouldn't think too hard on it. Akatosh didn't even exist prior to the Alessian Empire merging alduin and auriel. Yet by the release of skyrim, alduin is a living dragon and claims to be firstborn of Akatosh 😅 Tldr: It's abundantly clear that bethesda doesn't have any writers on its payroll
@@HeldIntegral incorrect, akatosh existed before alduin even without a name, because alduin himself says he is the firstborn of akatosh at the throat of the world fight with him. Replay the main story.
This is a totally new perspective for me on the ancient atmoran religion, and it makes a ton of sense. I can now also see how early human settlers of tamriel came to reinterpret their chief deity, the dragon, and eventually created early forms of akatosh, whitch totally clashes with the concept of the Nord dragon god, Alduin. These Ideas of a chief dragon deity simply spread among early Tamrielic humans BEFORE Alduin appeared and flipped the Nord attitude towards Dragons. Alessia then took all these Nedic Ideas of the dragon god as an inspiration for Akatosh rather than Alduin, who seems nothing like him.
Alduin is the son of akatosh tho, it's stated literally all over the main quest. He represents the destruction at the end of time, and akatosh represents natural order and time. Alduin coming about as the end of time could only happen if akatosh existed prior to alduin. The divines were nameless to the ancient nords but each animal deity matches a divine perfectly.
@thatshiftyboi8593 Alduin is the son of the original dragon god, who we in modern 4th era know as akatosh. When I say Allessia invented Akatosh, I don't mean she "made up" a god, but that she standardized the religious worship of many different human/Nedic cults. Of course, the entity that is now worshipped as Akatosh and his son Alduin already existed long before humans started worshipping them, but the form they take infront of mortals is partially dependent on the culteral lens the mortal observer sees them through. Alduin calls himself the firstborn son of "akatosh" because that is the name we would recognize that deity by. Paarthurnax even reveals in dialogue that the dragons know their father by a different name.
@MHWdJ I know. But Alduin cannot simultaneously be the same being as akatosh in dichotomy, while also being his son. That was my point. The concepts each Nedic divine stands for is accurately depicted with the animal deities the nords believe in, so it is a rose by any other name in that regard. In the real world, similar phenomena doesn't exist, different pantheon's gods all have different personalities and desires. In Elder Scrolls, they match almost exactly though, implying that the beings exist beyond name and the names simply serve to help mortals understand the being that embodies those concepts better.
The existence of human migrations prior to Saarthal is seemingly just a thing forgotten by most of Tamriel's inhabitants. We know for sure that there was a time in which structures were built possibly before any centralized civilization was there. Castle Volkihar had at least one previous owner who wasn't Harkon, and Harkon was himself supposedly some form of king, yet we know from Serana that Skyrim did in fact have someone they called "high king" in the time she went to sleep in Dimhollow, which also apparently looked very different when she got there. All of this means that at least one high king ruled over a culture very different to the people who built the way Dragon Cultists did, and if Harkon is truthful as he's shown to be about everything else, it suggests either he was a high king of Skyrim who was simply forgotten to history, or that the title high king may have originally been to distinguish the main monarch from lesser kings who ruled regionally. Like a system prior to jarls in which they could have been called "king" or "queen." I've wondered for a while about exactly how old Castle Volkihar has to be. It looks different in architecture to Dragon Cult ruins yet still has the Nordic look in a different way. Since Serana mentions a sundial previously present, and the sun's only major cultural relevance to ancient Skyrim was Snow Elves and their ideas on Auriel, it raises the question as to whether Volkihar used to be a place where Nords and Snow Elves were allied or at least on friendly terms. It's hard to piece together exactly how it may have looked centuries earlier, and what kind of culture truly built the place. To make it more interesting, consider talking to boat ferrymen in Skyrim about taking you to Volkihar. The dialogue draws attention the the fact that the island is near High Rock's border, and the less decorative architecture of Volkihar may even have some connection to how Bretons and formerly Direnni have built castles. Narrowing down time to something prior to an empire in Cyrodiil (which is interesting since the Ayleids are called an empire), in which a high king existed, and a castle that is distinctly not the work of Dragon Cultists and contained a sundial with unclear significance suggests some potentially very different culture in the area during the time Harkon controlled it. Some will dispute the idea that Harkon ever ruled, but his armor _is_ labeled as "royal armor" and his drive to control Skyrim more openly makes more sense if he resents no longer being a ruler over any of it after having had a taste of such a life prior to his pact with Molag Bal. To add another consideration to when their family was mortal, we know it was not the first vampirism because Serana is aware of Lamae's existence, although we don't really know when exactly she became one either.
Great video as always! I always go to your videos for elder scrolls lore as you keep it clean and concise! Don't sell yourself short everything before this was great too!
When you put on the wooden mask in Labyrinthian and travel back in time... I love to Imagine being able to explore other locations at the time and meeting the other dragon priests and other characters when they were human and alive, like Gauldur or . A mod to bring back or fully revive the Dragon cult would be more than interesting...
Personally i've always thought that the main reason why the dragon priests became tyrinnical was the change of power that the colonization of skyrim brought. In fact is higly probable that with skyrim's conquest many nords not affiliated with the cult became kings of small hold thus competing for power when the dragon cult begun to establish itself in Skyrim. Causing the priest to became more tyrinnical in their rule.Though this dorsn't esclude your theory.
not an expert but i want open the possibility of the dragon cult being an analogy for pre-christian paganism where there isn’t a defined religion per se but more variations of a common group of belief systems where local regions/tribes differ in specific customs and may even choose to focus on the worship of one god with the others still a part of the cosmology but not as prevalent. i like to think the dragon cult priests were more just localized religious figures possibly teaching local warlords how to use shouts, hence why you see draugr lords in crypts who can shout but may not be as proficient as those within the cult who have closer relations with the dragons. this could also be the reason why the skaal are still animistic in their beliefs, they very likely could have just been a tribe of ancient nords who moved to solstheim before being influenced by the dragon cult or the worshippers of the divines.
Nonfans: why is this game lore all over the place? Fans that are TH-camrs: It was designed to be... and that why we love it. It's lets us talk endlessly about the game. Other fans: It was designed that way. Makes this world more interesting, since there's no wrong answers. XD
doing some modding for rimworld that involves bronze age civilizations and the elderscrolls deep lore. all because i played the tamriel rebuilt mod for morrowind and with all the lore combined i interpreted the dragon cult being a death cult. Nords, nedes, and atmorans after the elnofey wars were big sad their war chief god shor was dead. so they worship the herald of the end times and the restart of kalpa so they can fight with shor again in the next one. The civil war Ysgramor fled was probably the dragon cult taking over as the chief religion of the atmorans anywho thats how im choosing to interpret the lore for my mod i might not finish cause coding blows.
So here's my problem, we are viewing this in the same way we view earth religions. Oh the worship of shor evolved from the worship of an old Breton god or an atmoran fox. But the implication there is that the gods aren't real and are just stories evolving over time. But we know that is not the case here as we interact with the gods in elder scrolls they aren't just stories so it wouldn't make much sense for them to be evolving over time or stealing stories from other gods.
Good point, however, if we can find Tsun in the game and interact with him (an actual god) why does no one except for the traditional nords worship him? And why is he not in the imperial modern day pantheon? And why, if Alduin is supposed to be the dragon god, and akatosh is just a later imperial invention.... why does paarthurnax say Akatosh exists????? There are several possible explanations for that, however, all of them are community theories for the most part which are also all over the place. The theory I like most is that we, the player, interact with these deities and ancient beings who know some things. But the average tamriellic citizen would never ever see the "truths" we do as player. So that is why there are so many different religions. But I know there are hundreds of theories about this topic and another one I like, but idk how much substance that has, is that gods can change depending on how they are worshipped. Which is why Akatosh suddenly exists for someone like paarthurnax, who was there at a time centuries before there was even a conception of akatosh.
Great topic, it makes me wonder, now that the dragons by Skyrims time, have been resurrected, what about the rest of tamerial, how have they reacted to seeing dragons again? What have the dragons done outside of skyrim, because they the ragons would fly elsewhere not just stay in skyrim, fly to new locations, or old places of power for them, tales of them were told all over the world before the fall.
Tribalism. Totem animals. Primal barbarian societies. This is what I imagined Nords before Skyrim came out. And after that, seeing populace of imperialised parodies of once glorious Atmorans (yes, it also includes my favourite Stormcloaks - I have a hard time understanding their devotion to Talos, imperialist warmonger that probably wasn't even a Nord), I got quite disappointed. And while I support Stormcloak rebellion for their independence attitude, even in them I see taint of imperialisation. Oh well, at least during escape of Cidhna Mine, I freed Madanach, so in case Ulfric betrays his ideals (such as aiming for Ruby Throne), my characters are no longer oath-bound to him (They swore allegiance to Ulfric Stormcloak who will drive out the Empire and make Skyrim independent land, and that Ulfric Stormcloak died the moment he betrayed these ideals), and there is another tribal ruler with aim for independence, and his culture is even more totemic and primal than Nords. Skyrim belongs to her inhabitants! And same applies for any other “provinces”!
Did i miss something, or did he mention the fact that you actually talk to a literal Atmoran god in Skyrim, Tsund? Or the fact that Ysgramor (who was an actual Atmoran) worships Shor in Sovrenguard?
Mentioned that we can find tsun at like 75% of the video, and Ysgramor and Shor can be explained by the fact that Ysgramor actually reached sovngarde (assuming sovngarde never changed) but should prob have mentioned that in the video sorry
All of the ancient nordic deities perfectly match a divine. I can tell you which is which, its really obvious. The dragon is obviously akatosh (not alduin, alduin is stated to be akatosh's firstborn, thereby making him a demigod, not a god), kyne is the hawk, as one of the nord heroes mentions that the goddess of the hawk gifted them the voice, and the greybeards say it was kyne flat out. julianos is the owl, the fox is talos/lorkhan/shor (theyre the same person, lorkhan was cursed to reincarnate as a human after he died, and talos is a mortal who ascended to godhood, so it fits.) , the whale is stendarr, as what do people being ransomed pray for but mercy? the bear is Zenithar, as he represents challenge and duty, which translates to hard work in modern nord society, the moth is Dibella, the wolf is obviously mara, and the snake is arkay, and the betrayal mentioned that the snake commited is stated by the priest of arkay in falkreath to be a "gift", limiting the human lifespan so they might better accept and understand death, unlike elves who have a tendency to fear it in spite of their long lives (prime example, mannimarco)
@ImperialKnowledge OK, i was a little distracted at that part of the video. I must have missed that part. Good video, not sure I quite agree with all of it, but good video.
The "Nedes" were either from Atmora or they were indigenous to Tamriel. There is evidence supporting both theories in the lore, like for the "Out of Atmora" theory we have that the earliest traces of human settlements being dating from the late Merethic Era which backs up that they weren't indigenous. But then you have the Reachmen and Kothringi who seem to have been in Tamriel a lot longer then that and have oral histories and artifacts that back this up, which gives more credence to them being indigenous to Tamriel. Personally I think both theories are true tbh, men are descended from the Wandering Ehlnofey after all, so it makes sense that they would be indigenous to more then two continents.
Elder Scrolls lore has never really been coherent. It's interesting for sure, but Bethesda largely seems to ignore it in their games. I wouldn't be surprised if the next game has some kind of multi-verse plot.
Excellent video, loved it, just discovered the channel. Got me thinking about 2 things. 1. Is the lore of TES better suited to be understanded through materialistic or idealistic philosophical lens? Should you look at the "reality" of events and historical evolution, or through symbolism and ideas, that would be "more true" than what actually happened? 2. If it's the second, the dragon cult was always about worship of time as a concept. And the Alduin period cult was worshipping a corrupted idea of time, the one that doesnt have natural order, with its ending and rebirth of the kalpas. We could say then: the Dragon god of the ancient atmorans = the current god Akatosh, they represent the same idea of time moving from something to somewhere and not standing still. Wait, would that make Alduin a Shezzarine? I want to bring Hegel into this but I'm either too high or not high enough. Cheers
Huh. I never keyed in on "That's SHOR!" when I saw those reliefs in the various Halls of Stories and such. Honestly I always saw them as the "Dragon Priests" back then. Thinking that what you were seeing was Worshipers, the Priest, and above the Priest on the Relief, the God/Spirit they were interceding with. Chalk one up for me being stupid, but stupid in a different way than most I guess. Though the weirdest thing for me of that ancient religion? The fact that "The Snake" was part of their iconography and belief. I mean for a religion that started on Atmora which everything I've ever heard of is just constantly frozen over. You don't exactly see a lot of snakes in Greenland, you know? Wonder how the "Old Ways" of Solstheim's Skaal comes into play as well. As the Dragonborn DLC seemed to suggest that they were actually the same religion as the Dragon Cult by their dialogue and sources, as they refer to Miraak as a "betrayer" of... their religion? And the loyalist that defeated him being one of their people. So somewhere the All-Maker (through the religion) gets added in as well and the totem worship of things like the Tree Stone, Beast Stone, etc? Or was that part of it? Or was it transformative? As the Skaal Religion seems to go back to Miraak's betrayal at the very least. And that betrayal seems to predate "The Dragon War" as I understand it, possibly before Alduin shows up as they depict the Dragon Cult as the benevolent force, and Miraak's betrayal as unjustified as an attempt for dominion instead of rebelling against tyrants.
This video was a lot of effort to make as the dragoncult is very poorly documented online, with some mistakes here and there which seems to have bled into several lore videos online. Hope you enjoyed it!
Just as I said at the end of the video, huge thanks to weather dragon from the UESP who gave input for the video! A link to his socials is in the video description
I really appreciate your content! Thanks for continuing to make high quality videos!
What is the name of the song in the background? I'm really curious to decipher it.
@@hannibalbarca1147 Sovngarde theme, I believe one video online has all the lyrics to it
You should totally check out my longer comment and tell me if you think I'm right. The divines *are* the animal deities, and they match perfectly. The fox is the only one thats a little bit of a stretch, but I provided a good explanation for that
@@ImperialKnowledge you know all this but not that Nirn is flat?
this makes me wonder more about miraak's betrayal of the cult, and think more about his mirroring of alduin's betrayal of his own destiny. if the cult were more akin to tyrannical, then would that make miraak more morally grey? especially in his mantra stating "and when the world shall listen. and when the world shall see. and when the world remembers. that world shall cease to be." but we never get an elaboration on what he meant :(
You make a good point, and it's worth noting that the "Guardian and the Traitor" myth is written from the perspective of the dragon cult.
Oh man. What an excellent video. I love how even though we have a lot of information on the Dragon Cult, there’s still so much unknown about them.
Oh-hoho, tooting our own horn are we? 😂
Even your oldest videos are pretty high quality, so you're always setting the bar higher with each video.
Hey I dont do it often haha.
The animal deities seem to reflect the divines. The dragon is obviously akatosh, the owl is julianos, the wolf is mara, the fox is obviously lorkhan, the snake is arkay (i say this because apparently he "gifted" mortals with limited lifespan by "sacrificing" his own mortality, coming straight from the priest of arkay in falkreath) , given that the moth is about frailty and beauty, Dibella fits most well. The bear is about duty and challenge, so that seems like Zenithar, the patron of Workers, but akatosh is also about duty so idk for sure with that, hawk is kyne, and stendarr could be the whale, because at that point in time ransom was probably considered a type of mercy, and if the people *being* ransomed prayed to the whale, its definitely stendarr, god of mercy.
Unrelated note, talos is absolutely an incarnation of lorkhan. Lorkhan was the god of mortality, and talos is the god of men, a human who rose to god status. Lorkhan was cursed to be reincarnated as mortal infinitely after his death at the hands of the other 8 divines, which could also be part of the betrayal the atmorans associated with the snake deity, and you know, the sayings about snakes and foxes.
The main issue with drawing parallels like that is they don't always fit..
While all other parallels there pair correctly (let's just ignore A(O)rkey for now), the parallel fails with the Bear & Zenithar, as Zenithar was an elven god, not Nordic. The bear became known as Tsun, Stendarr's (Stuhn's) brother & fellow shield thane of Shor.
Zenithar is one of the scant few Cyrodilic gods that isn't of Nordic origin. The only other one being Akatosh (at least by conventional understanding, as there's plenty to tie Akatosh as being of Nordic origin too). So yeah, Zenithar is the only one that's 100% elven in origin of the 9. Yes 9!
@nonso3396 I agree that there are 9 deities, idk if you saw my personal belief that talos was one of Lorkhan/Shor's human reincarnations, but it is what I believe given they are both the god of mortality/mortal men
@nonso3396 regarding Stendarr and Tsun, you're probably right, but in my opinion it's also possible that they could be two different culture's interpretation of the same being, which the best real world example would be the greek and roman pantheons, im not gonna preach it like its absolute but it's definitely a possibility.
The divines are an Imperialized Pantheon. Not Nordic.
Am imperialised pantheon made from an agglomeration of Nordic and elven gods. Because the Imperial religion has a definite start & origin that we know of, unlike others that have pretty much existed since the dawn era from their own history with the gods.
The Imperial religion was formed by Queen Allessia after their victory as a compromise between the two opposing religions. This was for several reasons-
1. Even though they were now free, their people had always worshipped the gods of their elven slave masters. Suddenly having everyone abandon their faith to follow a new state religion adopted from a foreign land (Skyrim) would have its owm complications.
2. Furthermore the Nords were not Allessia's only allies. She also had several aylied lords who allied with them. They would've been particularly offended by this sudden overhaul to a pantheon in direct opposition to theirs.
3. And vice versa. Keeping the religion of the slave masters they were just liberated from would be an insult both to the allies (heavily opposed to that religion) and the actual gods that answered their prayers sending actual demigods & Nordic allies to help.
So she had to compromise by taking gods from both pantheons (well, mainly Nordic, but not exclusively). Then she removed the more racist & blood thirsty aspects of these gods. Which is the main reason why Imperial gods seem like watered down versions of their Nordic counterparts. Because those Nordic gods were mostly blood thirsty warriors who hated elves & their gods. Likewise Auriel who himself led the elves & their pantheon against Shor.
So these gods had to be altered to fit their more cosmopolitan ideals. The warlord elven god Auriel was depicted as the dragon of time imbued with the spirit of man, hence two heads as a dragon & man. Kyne was no longer the warrior widow of Shor & goddess of nature, but became a much gentler element goddess. Shor could not even be openly acknowledged due to how anti-elven he was & remained the spirit of human undertaking - Shezarr the forgotten sibling. There's connections to be made with the spirit of man in Akatosh, but that's whole other can of worms.
So that my friend is how the Imperial religion was formed. It hasn't always existed as the religion it is, but was rather formed by combining two much older religions tuning it to fit the society they wanted
Please do a video about the mushrooms fungi and lichens of Tamriel!💛
I saw this comment last video
Alright you’re persistent I’ll agree now
@ yeah cause you know so he sees it he can’t read all the comments.
@@hillarydana3057i see it every week, and every week I feel bad about not having done it yet. But the upcoming lorebook for betrayal of the second era is said to feature some plant lore so im waiting for that
@@ImperialKnowledge that’s ok also I’d do a separate video on the plant and the fungi cause fungi aren’t plants they are more related to animals than plants they literally inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide!💛
@@hillarydana3057 Check out @Onyx Leviathan and his videos about Fungi and Alchrmy in TES.
I think the only small thing you got wrong in this video was that you said "each" dragon priest gained a mask, but that was reserved for the eight highest ranking priests in the cult, the named ones we meet in game.
I do love the dragon priests and the dragon cult as a piece of lore, my brother and I obsessed over it while writing our "civil war on Solstheim" piece for Teslore.
glad you covered the dragon Priests
Lore, the very soul of the Elder Scrolls and the greatest reason we explore the world thereof. It has also become the way of a Bethesda game.
The argument of ancient nords and later ancient nords could be reworded, prehistoric nords and ancient nords. The one with lost knowledge and the other who preserved that knowledge.
The Animal Totems and the Nordic Pantheon may not be one-to-one, but belief makes reality when it comes to the Divines. If the Atmorans came to believe that this "Sheor" was the same as their Fox, then that becomes true.
This belief making reality can be seen most clearly with Akatosh. Akatosh indisputably exists, but was an artificial creation and his constituant parts indisputable exist as well (Lorkhan, Auriel)
Surprised you didn't bring up the Skaal when talking about the evolution of Nordic religion. Since the All Maker and the more animistic beliefs of the Skaal seems to be a lot closer to the worship of animal gods of the proto Nords then the Nordic pantheon that came after.
With the clear Nordic inspiration behind the Nords and their culture, if you pay attention, or knows anything about it, you can clearly see the inspirations from the Norse Gods in these animal gods. Some have traits from more then one.
Thanks for all the great content!
Thank you! Its my pleasure!
Honestly one of the topics I'm most excited for
I pay more attention to these videos than i did my classes in college
16:57 not too long, i could listen to your lore videos for hours. They're so good
yeah, this video isn't even that long. tiktok and youtube shorts have fucking doomed youtube and longform content.
Not even just that, I work at home so I appreciate not having to click next video, and just listen to the 4+hr videos
Like Joe Rogan, the Dragon Priests of Skyrim believed in ...Dragons.
only difference was, no one ever mocked a dragon priest for that.
they were however relentlessly mocked for many other things, such as their really lousy retirement package.
second only to Molag Bal.
How good man, cheers. I translate 3 Australian Aboriginal stories for work and been reading heaps of dnd. You just helped make heaps of things come together haha not just ES
Quite the extensive video on the Dragon Cult. Thinking about it, it does indeed make sense for it to change over the centuries given all the different climate and political developments. A lot more depth to it provides great fascination.
Signal boost, always good to see you prosper my friend
Feldir the Old: Hold, Alduin on the Wing! Sister Hawk, grant us your sacred breath to make this contract heard! Begone, World-Eater! By words with older bones than your own we break your perch on this age and send you out! You are banished! Alduin, we shout you out from all our endings unto the last!"
The hawk is definitely kyne, the greybeards state that kyne gifted the nords the thuum, and that the dragonborn gets to break the rules because hes an incarnation of akatosh
I wouldn't think too hard on it. Akatosh didn't even exist prior to the Alessian Empire merging alduin and auriel. Yet by the release of skyrim, alduin is a living dragon and claims to be firstborn of Akatosh 😅
Tldr: It's abundantly clear that bethesda doesn't have any writers on its payroll
@@HeldIntegral incorrect, akatosh existed before alduin even without a name, because alduin himself says he is the firstborn of akatosh at the throat of the world fight with him. Replay the main story.
This is a totally new perspective for me on the ancient atmoran religion, and it makes a ton of sense. I can now also see how early human settlers of tamriel came to reinterpret their chief deity, the dragon, and eventually created early forms of akatosh, whitch totally clashes with the concept of the Nord dragon god, Alduin. These Ideas of a chief dragon deity simply spread among early Tamrielic humans BEFORE Alduin appeared and flipped the Nord attitude towards Dragons. Alessia then took all these Nedic Ideas of the dragon god as an inspiration for Akatosh rather than Alduin, who seems nothing like him.
Alduin is the son of akatosh tho, it's stated literally all over the main quest. He represents the destruction at the end of time, and akatosh represents natural order and time. Alduin coming about as the end of time could only happen if akatosh existed prior to alduin. The divines were nameless to the ancient nords but each animal deity matches a divine perfectly.
@thatshiftyboi8593 Alduin is the son of the original dragon god, who we in modern 4th era know as akatosh. When I say Allessia invented Akatosh, I don't mean she "made up" a god, but that she standardized the religious worship of many different human/Nedic cults. Of course, the entity that is now worshipped as Akatosh and his son Alduin already existed long before humans started worshipping them, but the form they take infront of mortals is partially dependent on the culteral lens the mortal observer sees them through. Alduin calls himself the firstborn son of "akatosh" because that is the name we would recognize that deity by. Paarthurnax even reveals in dialogue that the dragons know their father by a different name.
@MHWdJ I know. But Alduin cannot simultaneously be the same being as akatosh in dichotomy, while also being his son. That was my point. The concepts each Nedic divine stands for is accurately depicted with the animal deities the nords believe in, so it is a rose by any other name in that regard. In the real world, similar phenomena doesn't exist, different pantheon's gods all have different personalities and desires. In Elder Scrolls, they match almost exactly though, implying that the beings exist beyond name and the names simply serve to help mortals understand the being that embodies those concepts better.
Great video, the Skaal of Solstheim and the "All-Maker" would be a perfect follow up to this.
The existence of human migrations prior to Saarthal is seemingly just a thing forgotten by most of Tamriel's inhabitants. We know for sure that there was a time in which structures were built possibly before any centralized civilization was there. Castle Volkihar had at least one previous owner who wasn't Harkon, and Harkon was himself supposedly some form of king, yet we know from Serana that Skyrim did in fact have someone they called "high king" in the time she went to sleep in Dimhollow, which also apparently looked very different when she got there. All of this means that at least one high king ruled over a culture very different to the people who built the way Dragon Cultists did, and if Harkon is truthful as he's shown to be about everything else, it suggests either he was a high king of Skyrim who was simply forgotten to history, or that the title high king may have originally been to distinguish the main monarch from lesser kings who ruled regionally. Like a system prior to jarls in which they could have been called "king" or "queen."
I've wondered for a while about exactly how old Castle Volkihar has to be. It looks different in architecture to Dragon Cult ruins yet still has the Nordic look in a different way. Since Serana mentions a sundial previously present, and the sun's only major cultural relevance to ancient Skyrim was Snow Elves and their ideas on Auriel, it raises the question as to whether Volkihar used to be a place where Nords and Snow Elves were allied or at least on friendly terms. It's hard to piece together exactly how it may have looked centuries earlier, and what kind of culture truly built the place.
To make it more interesting, consider talking to boat ferrymen in Skyrim about taking you to Volkihar. The dialogue draws attention the the fact that the island is near High Rock's border, and the less decorative architecture of Volkihar may even have some connection to how Bretons and formerly Direnni have built castles. Narrowing down time to something prior to an empire in Cyrodiil (which is interesting since the Ayleids are called an empire), in which a high king existed, and a castle that is distinctly not the work of Dragon Cultists and contained a sundial with unclear significance suggests some potentially very different culture in the area during the time Harkon controlled it. Some will dispute the idea that Harkon ever ruled, but his armor _is_ labeled as "royal armor" and his drive to control Skyrim more openly makes more sense if he resents no longer being a ruler over any of it after having had a taste of such a life prior to his pact with Molag Bal.
To add another consideration to when their family was mortal, we know it was not the first vampirism because Serana is aware of Lamae's existence, although we don't really know when exactly she became one either.
jhunal the grey owl
I finally understand draugr in skyrim, Thank you imperial knowledge!
Babe wake up, new niche TES lore dude just dropped
Oh this video came out excellently
I was happy to help out :3
I really needed this lore for a character of mine, thank you!!
Great video as always! I always go to your videos for elder scrolls lore as you keep it clean and concise! Don't sell yourself short everything before this was great too!
fantastic video. had a good time thanks
Amazing video I really enjoyed it
When you put on the wooden mask in Labyrinthian and travel back in time... I love to Imagine being able to explore other locations at the time and meeting the other dragon priests and other characters when they were human and alive, like Gauldur or . A mod to bring back or fully revive the Dragon cult would be more than interesting...
I spazzed out on that one dragon priest that made his followers kill their child....truly evil.
Or a good way to weed out the disloyal/unfaithful.
As always "good" and "evil" are a matter of perspective.
Personally i've always thought that the main reason why the dragon priests became tyrinnical was the change of power that the colonization of skyrim brought. In fact is higly probable that with skyrim's conquest many nords not affiliated with the cult became kings of small hold thus competing for power when the dragon cult begun to establish itself in Skyrim. Causing the priest to became more tyrinnical in their rule.Though this dorsn't esclude your theory.
the comparison to the divines is quite interesting for example the hawk to a divine like kyne/kynareth makes sense
Very enlightening!
Would you be interested in making a video on the lore of the umbriel books?
not an expert but i want open the possibility of the dragon cult being an analogy for pre-christian paganism where there isn’t a defined religion per se but more variations of a common group of belief systems where local regions/tribes differ in specific customs and may even choose to focus on the worship of one god with the others still a part of the cosmology but not as prevalent. i like to think the dragon cult priests were more just localized religious figures possibly teaching local warlords how to use shouts, hence why you see draugr lords in crypts who can shout but may not be as proficient as those within the cult who have closer relations with the dragons. this could also be the reason why the skaal are still animistic in their beliefs, they very likely could have just been a tribe of ancient nords who moved to solstheim before being influenced by the dragon cult or the worshippers of the divines.
Nonfans: why is this game lore all over the place?
Fans that are TH-camrs: It was designed to be... and that why we love it. It's lets us talk endlessly about the game.
Other fans: It was designed that way. Makes this world more interesting, since there's no wrong answers. XD
_"Wit out fudder a doe"_ - lekker man
doing some modding for rimworld that involves bronze age civilizations and the elderscrolls deep lore. all because i played the tamriel rebuilt mod for morrowind and with all the lore combined i interpreted the dragon cult being a death cult. Nords, nedes, and atmorans after the elnofey wars were big sad their war chief god shor was dead. so they worship the herald of the end times and the restart of kalpa so they can fight with shor again in the next one.
The civil war Ysgramor fled was probably the dragon cult taking over as the chief religion of the atmorans
anywho thats how im choosing to interpret the lore for my mod i might not finish cause coding blows.
When I first saw your channel I actually believed you were Farengar and Vorstag’s voice actor
So here's my problem, we are viewing this in the same way we view earth religions. Oh the worship of shor evolved from the worship of an old Breton god or an atmoran fox. But the implication there is that the gods aren't real and are just stories evolving over time.
But we know that is not the case here as we interact with the gods in elder scrolls they aren't just stories so it wouldn't make much sense for them to be evolving over time or stealing stories from other gods.
Good point, however, if we can find Tsun in the game and interact with him (an actual god) why does no one except for the traditional nords worship him? And why is he not in the imperial modern day pantheon?
And why, if Alduin is supposed to be the dragon god, and akatosh is just a later imperial invention.... why does paarthurnax say Akatosh exists?????
There are several possible explanations for that, however, all of them are community theories for the most part which are also all over the place.
The theory I like most is that we, the player, interact with these deities and ancient beings who know some things. But the average tamriellic citizen would never ever see the "truths" we do as player. So that is why there are so many different religions.
But I know there are hundreds of theories about this topic and another one I like, but idk how much substance that has, is that gods can change depending on how they are worshipped. Which is why Akatosh suddenly exists for someone like paarthurnax, who was there at a time centuries before there was even a conception of akatosh.
explains the shitty skyrim puzzles, and I love it
" Don't you even think of the word dragon lowborn" 😂😂
Great topic, it makes me wonder, now that the dragons by Skyrims time, have been resurrected, what about the rest of tamerial, how have they reacted to seeing dragons again? What have the dragons done outside of skyrim, because they the ragons would fly elsewhere not just stay in skyrim, fly to new locations, or old places of power for them, tales of them were told all over the world before the fall.
Tribalism. Totem animals. Primal barbarian societies. This is what I imagined Nords before Skyrim came out. And after that, seeing populace of imperialised parodies of once glorious Atmorans (yes, it also includes my favourite Stormcloaks - I have a hard time understanding their devotion to Talos, imperialist warmonger that probably wasn't even a Nord), I got quite disappointed. And while I support Stormcloak rebellion for their independence attitude, even in them I see taint of imperialisation. Oh well, at least during escape of Cidhna Mine, I freed Madanach, so in case Ulfric betrays his ideals (such as aiming for Ruby Throne), my characters are no longer oath-bound to him (They swore allegiance to Ulfric Stormcloak who will drive out the Empire and make Skyrim independent land, and that Ulfric Stormcloak died the moment he betrayed these ideals), and there is another tribal ruler with aim for independence, and his culture is even more totemic and primal than Nords. Skyrim belongs to her inhabitants! And same applies for any other “provinces”!
It makes me think of the times we had multiple co-existing hominid species.
Did i miss something, or did he mention the fact that you actually talk to a literal Atmoran god in Skyrim, Tsund? Or the fact that Ysgramor (who was an actual Atmoran) worships Shor in Sovrenguard?
Mentioned that we can find tsun at like 75% of the video, and Ysgramor and Shor can be explained by the fact that Ysgramor actually reached sovngarde (assuming sovngarde never changed) but should prob have mentioned that in the video sorry
All of the ancient nordic deities perfectly match a divine. I can tell you which is which, its really obvious. The dragon is obviously akatosh (not alduin, alduin is stated to be akatosh's firstborn, thereby making him a demigod, not a god), kyne is the hawk, as one of the nord heroes mentions that the goddess of the hawk gifted them the voice, and the greybeards say it was kyne flat out. julianos is the owl, the fox is talos/lorkhan/shor (theyre the same person, lorkhan was cursed to reincarnate as a human after he died, and talos is a mortal who ascended to godhood, so it fits.) , the whale is stendarr, as what do people being ransomed pray for but mercy? the bear is Zenithar, as he represents challenge and duty, which translates to hard work in modern nord society, the moth is Dibella, the wolf is obviously mara, and the snake is arkay, and the betrayal mentioned that the snake commited is stated by the priest of arkay in falkreath to be a "gift", limiting the human lifespan so they might better accept and understand death, unlike elves who have a tendency to fear it in spite of their long lives (prime example, mannimarco)
@ImperialKnowledge OK, i was a little distracted at that part of the video. I must have missed that part. Good video, not sure I quite agree with all of it, but good video.
*Me going to watch Attack of the Chainsaw Sharks at the cinema*
I wonder what this movie gonna be about
Nords and red guards are not originally from tamriel yes. But what about the nedes?
Most likely the nedes originally came from atmora with the earlier non colonisation migrations (see lorebook: frontier conquest)
The "Nedes" were either from Atmora or they were indigenous to Tamriel. There is evidence supporting both theories in the lore, like for the "Out of Atmora" theory we have that the earliest traces of human settlements being dating from the late Merethic Era which backs up that they weren't indigenous. But then you have the Reachmen and Kothringi who seem to have been in Tamriel a lot longer then that and have oral histories and artifacts that back this up, which gives more credence to them being indigenous to Tamriel. Personally I think both theories are true tbh, men are descended from the Wandering Ehlnofey after all, so it makes sense that they would be indigenous to more then two continents.
Ah yes, socioantropology of religion that went extinct in game world
There aren’t any owls and snakes in Skyrim unfortunately. 😂
Maybe they used to exist in those times.
🎉
Elder Scrolls lore has never really been coherent. It's interesting for sure, but Bethesda largely seems to ignore it in their games.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next game has some kind of multi-verse plot.
Excellent video, loved it, just discovered the channel. Got me thinking about 2 things.
1. Is the lore of TES better suited to be understanded through materialistic or idealistic philosophical lens? Should you look at the "reality" of events and historical evolution, or through symbolism and ideas, that would be "more true" than what actually happened?
2. If it's the second, the dragon cult was always about worship of time as a concept. And the Alduin period cult was worshipping a corrupted idea of time, the one that doesnt have natural order, with its ending and rebirth of the kalpas. We could say then: the Dragon god of the ancient atmorans = the current god Akatosh, they represent the same idea of time moving from something to somewhere and not standing still. Wait, would that make Alduin a Shezzarine? I want to bring Hegel into this but I'm either too high or not high enough. Cheers
Atmorans worshipping snakes always annoyed me. No snake could survive anywhere near atmora
Atmora was a land of green summers, snakes could handle it. There are poisonous snake species that live in Siberia.
Also, who's to say tamriels snakes aren't warm blooded
@@a_n1441 good point
Yeah, Atmora's state as a frozen wasteland is a post migration development.
😂👉🌎
Second
Huh. I never keyed in on "That's SHOR!" when I saw those reliefs in the various Halls of Stories and such. Honestly I always saw them as the "Dragon Priests" back then. Thinking that what you were seeing was Worshipers, the Priest, and above the Priest on the Relief, the God/Spirit they were interceding with.
Chalk one up for me being stupid, but stupid in a different way than most I guess.
Though the weirdest thing for me of that ancient religion? The fact that "The Snake" was part of their iconography and belief. I mean for a religion that started on Atmora which everything I've ever heard of is just constantly frozen over. You don't exactly see a lot of snakes in Greenland, you know?
Wonder how the "Old Ways" of Solstheim's Skaal comes into play as well. As the Dragonborn DLC seemed to suggest that they were actually the same religion as the Dragon Cult by their dialogue and sources, as they refer to Miraak as a "betrayer" of... their religion? And the loyalist that defeated him being one of their people. So somewhere the All-Maker (through the religion) gets added in as well and the totem worship of things like the Tree Stone, Beast Stone, etc? Or was that part of it? Or was it transformative? As the Skaal Religion seems to go back to Miraak's betrayal at the very least. And that betrayal seems to predate "The Dragon War" as I understand it, possibly before Alduin shows up as they depict the Dragon Cult as the benevolent force, and Miraak's betrayal as unjustified as an attempt for dominion instead of rebelling against tyrants.
Power