Pyrrha was my favorite character and it's sad that she's gone. To be honest, she didn't have a choice because someone as selfless and compassionate as her would always accept an opportunity to save the world. It still doesn't make her death any less painful. RIP PYRRHA NIKOS 2016
So true and she was used bc of her beliefs. Ozpin got her as an easy pick bc of her beliefs. If he picked someone else like maybe Yang, then it will truly be choice bc for example Yang would have a choice of saving the people or find her mom but still this wasn't a choice. It was an ultimatum. Ozpin sucks!
Weird Tree - I don’t think that’s true that Pyrrha was forced into making a choice. What did you want Ozpin to do? Lie about how her choice would affect thousands of lives? What he was saying was truth-Withholding it wouldn’t be effective since it’s true that he does have a motive. But if he really didn’t want her to have a choice he could’ve just shoved her into the machine anyways despite whatever choice she wanted to make. He had two other huntsman at his side. He let her know what was at stake. In fact, I bet that if she had decided not to do it and later found out the misery that came from it, she would’ve regretted her choice. Her character formed her choice. Ozpin had no say in her character development. She was who she was and made her decision because of it. I believe that a person always has a choice. They might not like their choices. Their choices might not favor them, but they always have a choice. Pyrrha was selfless, but she still could’ve chosen self-preservation. Just because Ozpin wanted her to sacrifice herself and it happened doesn’t mean he manipulated her into doing it. I would say it’s more likely that he was trying to persuade her into doing it. But even then, it wasn’t like he was listing several reasons why she should. Didn’t he remind her that she didn’t have to?
Honestly, I don't think any one without being as 'selfless and compassionate' would have been able to choose themselves. The stances they were in, the words used, it was all a manipulation of anyone to push to the desired goal. And I can tell you, there definitely looked to be a bit of an implied threat beyond just what was said. To me it looked like they were in the 'if you don't agree, we're going to hurt you' type of formation.
Maiden's powers have a trick to who they go to. Ozpin must have one too. I would even suggest it's the same but with bois. He wasn't thinking of any guy in particular so, we have a bois lottery to see who gets to be with another soul in his body, young bois only. Oscar won
Qrow Branwen oy some can't move on from missing someone while they see that person's final moments or even their corpse somthing like that will always plague ones mind even if it's only in the back of that person's mind.
NarakunoHana100. This is maybe gonna hurt, but this is the truth. Did you know that It is pyrrha's own fault that She died. I mean She didn't had to fight Cynder. Really She never had to. She could have Just leave and fight another day. But nooo. Lets Challenge a fucking Maiden. But then She took An Arrow in the heel. And DIED. Her own fault not mine or Ozpin.
+john mcmasters It's true I still think about not being able to save my brother's life being there when he took his last breath. Even if I was only 6, I still remember everything clearly. If only I had noticed sooner. All I knew is when he closed his eyes and his head dropped. My heart stopped, I screamed out for my mother. My six-year-old self-knew that he wasn't just sleeping. I remember sitting in the living room of my aunt's place and getting the news that he had died. My other siblings cried. I didn't I was still in shock. Even at the funeral, I sat there quietly. Still feeling that it couldn't be true. Wow, your comment brought up old memories. I occasionally think about him when I'm alone. You're right though.
I made a choice to become a bird. Its not a curse. But a blessing. I can change into a crow whenever the fuck i want!!! Somethimes there is a choice. And you guys all sound like my sister.
Qrow, I said choice is pointless if someone else decides it for you. You made the conscious choice to get bird powers and it helped, yes. However, you didn't choose to have a Semblance that hurts everyone around you, ally or foe.
Daffyhat. I suppose that's true. But did Ozpin gave me that Semblance. Nope. The universe did. And there is nothing wrong with that. Because i accepted who and what iam. And please Just stop spreading lies about Ozpin beeing Evil. Hé is the only person that is actully fighting Salum. Raven abandonned her duties. And Iron Wood is Just going Rogue. And that Will be his downfall. The only other person that is still Truely fighting Salum. Is the Headmaster of Vacuo. You know why. Because the great war brought Vale and Vacuo Together. So that means that Vacuo Will listen when the story finally brings us there. Oh and when we we ASKED!!! Pyrrha to become the new Fall Maiden. We where desperate. I mean we could have just waited until the festival was over. WE COULD. but we didn't. Yes She died. But is was foolish of her to face Cynder in the first Place. Her death was her own fault. Seriously She could have just run away and fight another day. She could have joined us. But no She Just wanted to be the hero. IT was Just Stupid to fight a Maiden.
Then tell me @Daffyhat - when did someone else made a decision for another person (parents for their childs, enemies who're forcing a fight and Oscar excluded)? Pyrrha had a choice. She could have said no. We're kind of the situation like she had done so. Convincing her with a good reason not to refuse doesn't remove the option. Crow and Raven had the choice to get their powers, but with conditions. Both even knew what they're up against and accepted. Raven didn't hold on her part on the condition, but even so, Ozpin didn't really try to chase her for it. Yes, people in rwby didn't choose their semblence. Did anyone say they could choose it? For example you can't choose your gender. Pretty much the same in rwby.
I don't believe in destiny. I believe in potential and choices. Some people have the potential to cause a great change, for any number of reasons, but in the end none of that matters unless they choose to act on that potential.
Really these "choices" are more like Ultimatums, like you said in this video. Do this thing or else. For any of these people they could have gone one of 3 ways, either run away from Ozpin and Salem and just try to live your life like Raven did, follow Ozpin like Qrow did, or follow Salem like Cinder or Lionheart did.
Brandon Dodge, Japanese Web Novels would have people with cheats who can choose the first decision and live a long time safely (or screw up the whole world) but... even with semblances and possible altruism beyond race; the whole war against grimm and the dispute among kingdoms are making it difficult for the people of Remnant to live a happy life...
in this case it's hard to "pretend" to serve either side since your either in or out of their fight, and going traitor to one...well saw how that went.
Despite the many flaws in the show, the fact that it can spawn such in-depth discussion and debate is what makes it so fun. I have a question that if anyone can answer would be great because its bothered me a while. When Penny speaks to Ruby, she mentions that one day it'll be her job to save the world (paraphrasing) so does that mean she was originally to be the sacrifice for Amber - Amber's aura/soul would be transferred into Penny?
But perhaps on realizing the threat being IN Beacon, and Penny not seeming to be ready, Ozpin was forced with the idea of choosing a student to be sacrificed instead and his 'choice' either use Penny who seems more interested in just normal girl things, has a childish personality and well, keeps taking off to explore lol OR a student that is top of class, in combat and has a pure sense of justice that wouldn't waver? He gives her until the end of the tournament only because they feel there isn't a lot of time - I'm surprised they gave her that much frankly. Anyone can truly want to protect and save others but if the cost is your very life and the result is a hazy 50% success rate - if even that much... saying no wouldn't be a surprise. It's not a fair choice sure, but its a choice. I would even say the pressure from the council that Ozpin in previous life possibly set up as King (Clarification please) were also urging him to do something as well as Ironwood. He himself, in turn, had a lose-lose choice to make as well.
As for a whole, I would prefer if Ozpin were truly untrustworthy be it he's good at the end or bad. But I wonder how much of it is story related or just a means to make him look cool. None of the RT staff from day one were professional story-tellers so I always struggle with the debate of is Ozpin hiding something or is he written to be that way just for effect? I do think there's more to Team STRQ's fall out and separation. And indeed, these students training against fellow huntsman - I imagine for the sole purpose to harden and prepare them for possible encounters with followers of Salem. Not telling them is kinda screwed up, how many of Qrow's friends had no idea who Salem was and facing off against Hazel and Tyrian and all the Grimm no doubt at once? Knowing may have changed outcomes. Also, I know it's still young but aren't these Academies like colleges? Aren't the students like 17 years old? So they aren't exactly children anymore - aside from exceptions like Ruby BUT I imagine Tai signed the permission slip and it was okay by him.
Plus the academies aren't even where they start training to fight. They come from middle schools that are having them design weapons and utilizing them. So aren't they the ones that are training children and preparing them for battles? I think the idea of these schools having kids in the battlefield/woods fighting Grimm aren't due to the school. I think kids were always fighting alongside family and huntsmen - the difference being the schools and main cities offer a more refined streamlined style of training while being safe. Kids fighting but having properly studied and taught by pros before them.There's more I'm sure.
And I have questions littered throughout so would like some answers if there exist any. Is Ozpin trustworthy, like I said I would want to see there be secrets he hasn't told. But I fear it may be more for effect than actual revelation-like stuff.
Although He did find the idea of turning people into birds hilarious. Whether it was their choice or not - had the transfer of souls taken place and Pyrrha died and Amber took over, would he down the road have found the idea hilarious as well? "Sounds ridiculous when said aloud" and he laughs. I'm sure the bird-transforming wasn't on a whim, they needed it in the moment pretty bad BUT he finds it pretty funny now. So his moral compass seems a bit... well I guess that's assuming my moral compass is right lol. A matter of opinion.But that's just some of the thoughts I had on it. I can't think of anything at the moment.
Tammi M Penny was a prototype since aura transplanting is very recent. In fact, giving Penny the Maiden Powers makes more sense than Pyrrha due to how Penny is technically a soldier and not a Huntress. It's likely due to the fact Penny was a prototype that she was too risky to be given Maiden powers
Cool theory and technically any show can be a foundation for in-depth discussion even Spongebob. Also, I'm sure an immortal's moral compass wi mostly be super subjective especially in the case of Ozpin.
That would explain why she was built as close to a young woman as Ironwood could probably manage. But she still is a machine. I think it wouldn't work (plus that would be a pretty message to send to the audience: those emancipated girls with their useless free will and own decisions, we should just replace them with machines, so the work that their male owner (Ironwood) wants to be down, can be fulfilled more effectively (pretty messed up if you ask me 🤷♀️))
Thanks for the responses guys! That's true about anything can have an I-depth discussion lol! Ozpin didn't know about Penny being a robot. I think Ironwood's plan was to put this robot girl (with a soul) into the tournament to best everyone, then turn to Ozpin and say Penny is far superior and should become the maiden. He himself is half metal and probably sees its a much safer and better alternative than killing a young human girl.
I had also questioned whether he was wanting Penny to take over his own Kingdom's maiden as a backup and tested her strength against the other kingdoms' huntsmen (kinda cheating and screwed up so Ironwood isn't above this type of underhand). I had also the head canon that the Penny's aura/soul was from a scientist's daughter that had a failing body - so with Ironwood's help (seeing as he lost most of his body and replaced it with metal parts) built a replica robot of what daughter looked like and transerred her mind and soul to it. She may have lost her memory in the transfer but still retains an innocent young girl personality. (Though this is 100%head canon and theory -I have nothing to prove it lol.)
Also, if anyone can answer me on this because I've been bothered by it since it was brought back up in Vol. 4 and then the lingo changed in Vol. 5. Back when Pyrrha is offered this 'choice', she is told that the powers (maiden) are transferred to the person in the current maiden's thoughts last. If it's a female it'll move to her, if it's a male it 'resets' or randomizes and then they have to search all over for this person. And it was reiterated 'the one in their last thoughts' typically the attacker if killed.
So set in stone. Got it. In vol. 4 Qrow tells them about the maidens. Ren says "So these maiden's when one of them dies the power transfers to someone, a female, that they care about." Qrow corrects him "Whoever was in their thoughts last. Important distinction." But fast forward to vol 5, we don't hear Ozpin and Qrow tell Yang and Weiss everything BUT when Yang is confronting her mom in the Vault, she says "She (referring to original Spring) must've trusted you a lot." --- Never understood this because, if they told Yang and Weiss the same thing, the maiden didn't need to trust Raven at all. A few moments earlier, Cinder implies the same thing "She must've trusted you a great deal" Why? She could've run up on the maiden and killed her (just like Cinder did to Amber) and Raven in last thoughts as the attacker, received the powers. I will say that I believe, much like Vernal, Spring trusted and was very loyal to the tribe and to Raven and when she realized she just wasn't strong enough, conceded that the 'BEST THING FOR THE TRIBE" would be for her to die and the powers to carry on to Raven the strongest in the tribe and Leader. That's also a head canon with nary a shred of evidence.
But my issue is the whole switch from vol 4 and into vol 5 with this odd change in a once adamantly stated condition/rule of the powers transferring. Did they not tell Weiss and Yang the truth? Does Cinder not know how it works either? OR are the guys at RT/CRWBY doing away with that rule and changing it to 'the last person in the maiden's thoughts that they cared about?' and if so, why? Is it so Raven doesn't receive the powers from Cinder?
I don't think Raven can have the powers because Qrow says in response to Nora (vol 4) they may have mentioned it in vol 3 to Pyrrha but not sure, that there are ALWAYS 4 maidens. So I don't think Raven could get the powers - not naturally. Cinder maybe since she was acquiring them unnaturally so she may have been able to syphon it and hold 2. I dunno. It may be nothing I just don't get why two people on different teams are insinuating the only way Raven could've gotten those powers was because Spring 'trusted and cared about her (Raven) a lot'.
Tammi M Your right, this "spring trusted you" is pretty confusing. I always just combined it with the fact that Qrow was sure that Raven had the Spring maiden into the conclusion, that it was a semi-secret that Raven had allied with Spring to hide from and defend themselves against Salem (and probably also Ozpin). So Spring must have trusted Raven because they were a team. And then Raven betrayed that trust. For what reason I don't know 🤔
I think the reason Ozpin trains children/teenagers to fight his war is like why Halsey chose children for the Spartan 2 program, because they are easier to shape and mold into what you want and need. It’s easier to give children/teenagers with no real knowledge of the real world the respective of ‘you fight against evil because you are good’. An adult with experience in life would tell you not everything is black and white but a child doesn’t have that experience, to a child it’s easier for them to understand if you label one thing good and another thing bad, a child doesn’t care about the grey area between those two sides because why would they? Ozpin likely knows this so can project the image of good vs bad for children because they will simply accept it over and adult who has the increased chance of looking between the lines and questioning everything. But that’s just my take.
Yeah. Basically a Spartan 2 situation but thankfully instead of 5-6 year olds it’s approx 17 year olds with a few younger exceptions such as Ruby at 15yo.
I imagine that using children was a consequence of a larger issue. When the schools were founded they were an attempt to quickly revive a damaged world. To revitalize the world so that it may rise higher. It was Ozpins folly to not see the long-term ramifications of said goal.
Bare in mind that the tournament ended EARLY due to Cinder's plan so this choice she made was rushed and pushed further ahead. Also when Ozpin said "I need to hear you say it" pushed this idea of Ozpin trying to push himself to justify the idea of a choice
No, I believe there wasn't a choice from the start. And it makes me see a bit of what Raven was getting at. Pyrrah I feel Ozpin just used her sense justice to protect people and painted it as her "Choice" Same with Oscar, I feel that was more manipulation under the disguise of "this is your choice" when Oscar rarely has much a choice on Ozpin even taking over his body. It just makes me trust him even less when he takes stuff like that away under a certain narrative.
Xros Media YT except option A was made to sound more appealing to everything that person stands for, while B was told to sound like some horrible act that person would never do.
Miu Chibiruma and in Raven's case he paints dissenters in a negative light so as to discourage those who learn the truth about the world from defecting and possibly blowing the lid off of their secret society, b/c they're privy to knowledge not many in their world r aware of. No wonder ppl like Yang r suspicious of him now. Groupthink is dangerous to begin with and the illusion of choice may come back to bite Ozpin in the rear yet AGAIN if Ruby gets captured and receives an extreme makeover by team WTCH.
Miu Chibiruma same goes for Ruby, not only would running from this fight go against what she believes in, but Salem is interested in her, so she has to fight. And Ruby's friends aren't gonna abandon her, so they have to fight as well.
Blake Gerber that might be true now. But what if Ruby gets captured by team WTCH? Then what? Like Summer before her, Ruby is the glue holding this group together and is Oz's WMD. If that weapon is tampered with (she loses one of her silver eyes) and she becomes mentally shattered from the trauma, that just might be where the real division of the group starts, b/c they won't know how to handle that.
Honestly, I believe it is a mix. Yes, Pyrrah did have a choice. Yes, we all knew what she was going to pick because that is part of her character and belief. But...it was still her choice. Let's say she said no...I do not believe that Ozpin and the others would knock her out and force her to do that...yet they did use the knowledge of how she behaves to ask her a question she wouldn't say no to. In the end, it was Pyrrah who made the call to accept the powers.
The thing is while Ozpin has had key moments where he has shown to be suspicious I just can't hate him for his choices. His just paying for the mistake he made and is still making, that he is struggling to convince himself is the right thing to do. He's getting cracks in his ideals. Salem has brought out a hammer. But while yes I do believe he hasn't been completely honest with everyone around him. I can see why. 1. His been around for thousands of years and this is probably not his first plan or attempt to finish the mission he has been given since his "failure" to stop Salem before she went balistic with wanting all of Humanity to die. I'm sure he has tried a million different ways. Especially when you recall he let it slip to Ruby. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman, and child on this planet." He sounded so sad when he said it. Like he was thinking back to all his past failures. And maybe friends he trusted that either betrayed him along the way, or died. He's afraid to get close to others now. Because I feel like especially in his early years. He let people in. People knew. But something drastic happened thousands of years ago. And by the time he was the King of Vale something changed in him. 2. Remember how as the king of Vale. He tried to stall the war. He never wanted it to happen. The WoR states. "The king of Vale did all he could to prevent violence and calm his people." Claiming that they should try to peacefully co-exist with the other Mistral settlers. But a huge statement still bothers me. When Qrow says. "To this day no one knows who shot first." Now it could be a simple statement. But something seems off. I think Salem caused it to happen. Now this is just my observations and theories here I may be wrong. But I think that 80 years ago. Ozpin had given up again (by again I mean in the Four Maidens WoR you see the Wizard living alone, defeated and bitter at the world. Salem had beaten him that first time and he gave up after being cursed and living for centuries watching the world around him without acting) and was just trying to preserve human lives by the time he became king. Something about the war changed him. He doesn't try to get attached anymore. He still loves humanity but with all he's seen he can cloud his judgment with the hope that he can beat Salem this time. But this is unhealthy and if he doesn't really start letting people in again he will cause his own plan to fail. So to answer your question I would say both. But when Ozpin makes those choices he knows deep down he's manipulating everyone. But he's so far gone in trying to stop Salem at all cost and also hating himself. I feel subconsciously he wants to be mistrusted. He wants to be seen as this mystery that can't be reached. He's put up walls around his heart... and is trying to just use his mind and morals alone without giving too much into his empathy for others. Sorry about the long post I just find this topic and Ozpin very interesting.
I've always thought something along these lines, since as you said, Ozpin has lived a really long time and after that long, he would've made and lost thousands of friends. They wouldn't even need to have necessarily betrayed him for him to close himself off(although, statistically, at least a few of them must have), they'd just have to die naturally or in battle. Ozpin had lived knowing any friend he makes, he will outlive. Any person he meets, he will outlive. He's probably just numbed himself to it all just to keep his sanity and keep actually caring about humanity as a whole. Because of this, he probably isn't as concerned about the individuals and can justify sacrificing some people individually for humanity as a whole. Lying to people to get them to do what he wants is probably even easier for him, since in that case they're not even dying for humanity, just being deceived for it.
Ozpin's problem is his secrecy. Salem cannot surivive the cold light of Day if People knew about Ozpin she couldn't plan her attacks. but she relys on Ozpins guilt and fear about people learning about what he has done to control him and keep him from telling about him. Let's try an experiment. Next time Ozpin or someone like him says it would cause a panic, think of them saying National Security instead. Now think of all of the horrible things that have been done in the name of national security.
Pyrrha probably would've had more time to think about the situation if not for Cinder prematurely ending the Vital Festival by releasing grimm into Vale and Beacon along with the White Fang invading.
yes, but the decision was a forgone conclusion. it would have ended with pyrrha accepting ether way, the time was only really given to make her believe that she was given a choice in the matter.
I don't think Ironwood was in the last episode. Still someone did say that there was a safe zone in Vale. Still who know's how long that will last for and all those grim. Even if their at the school doesn't mean more will show up.
They were already into the 1v1 rounds of the tournament. Assuming all matches take the same period of time there were 7 rounds left to decide a winner, but 24 had already taken place to get there. This ultimatum was given 3/4ths of the way through the tournament, which presumably spans the length of the festival.
When considering the choice presented to Pyrrha, you have to consider why she was chosen to be the next Fall Maiden. She was chosen not only for her skill and ability as a huntress, but because of her nature as a person. One of the first things we see her do, outside of her battle prowess, is befriend and help a bumbling idiot in Jaune Arc. With so many other people who are innately cooler and more advantageous picks, she chooses the least likely person. Seeing the potential in him, before ultimately falling in love with him. Her first choice that we see her make is team up with someone who would presumably hold her back. She continues this trend throughout her time on the show. And Ozpin and Goodwitch observe as much. This makes her candidacy for the Fall Maiden’s power ideal. She displayed a character that would consistently champion the common folk over fame or riches, despite the fact that she was already famous herself. She saw the worth in all people. This is why Ozpin and gang chose her. This is why she was given this overwhelming decision that would ultimately destroy her in either outcome. Does she have a choice? Absolutely. She could have said no. But what would’ve happened had she said no? If she had chosen not to take the Fall Maiden’s power, Cinder would have gained it anyway. Pyrrha’s rejection of the power would have driven her face off with Cinder out of guilt, and we would arrive at the same conclusion. But rejecting the responsibility of that power would betray Pyrrha’s character. The death of Pyrrha in the story is a great, and heartbreaking, loss. But in defense of Ozpin, if you’re going to have someone make a choice with such high stakes, you’re going to have to hedge your bets and pick the most capable and likely candidate to say yes.
I believe only one character has a choice ... Ruby Rose. And I don't mean just because she is the "main character" but because she seems to hold some unknown power. Ozpin seems almost afraid of the power that Ruby holds with her silver eyes, pursuing her to be on his side even to the point of having her enter his academy 2 years early. (Talk about child soldiers). He then made her the leader of a team and seems to treat her specially.
Boomie Boehme It could be that, just like the maiden powers, ozpins magic makes him vulnerable to the silver eyes. It would also explain why ozpin gave team STRQ the same kind of special treatment, with summer being on the team and all.
mind you Summer wasnt just on the team, remember the way teams are set up the leader of the team has the first letter of their name start the teams name, (Rwby) Ruby Rose, (Jnpr) Jaune arc, (Strq) Summer Rose. The only other person we've been somewhat introduced to with silver eyes, was also the team leader of her team, wonder why ozpin needs the silver eyes so much.
JemStoneNetworkProductions But why Jaune? What was so special about him Ozpin blindly allowed him into the school, knowing he had fake transcripts! He didn't have that powerful semblance at the time so it wasn't that. What!?
Well, that's not true exactly, Jaune has always had it, he simply wasn't able to access it, and the stress and traumatic experience of him believing he would lose Weiss the same way he lost Pyrrha finally caused it to come out, why he chose Jaune? not sure. It could be that while he is the weakest fighting wise, he has proven he can be a very good leader push comes to shove, it could also be because Jaune is the weakest of them he chose him, to be leader you have no choice but to become stronger, they talk about that a bit in season two? where they remind him that he's their leader and he can't give up. Ozpin has done everything for a reason, he had to know Jaune didn't belong there, so there's something about him Ozpin felt was worth having at the school, for all we know Ozpin could be the reason Jaune was able to "get his hands on" the fake docs in the first place, doesnt seem like a thing that happens often at Beacon. That's what I feel though, I truly believe that none of the teams ended up together by chance, Ozpin planned it all, look at the simularies between team STRQ and team RWBY, he was remaking team STRQ the best that he could, who knows what he had planned orginaly for team JNPR before Beacon fell.
When Ozpin is involved, there is no choice. He's lived for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. He knows how to read people. He knows what they want to see and hear, and he knows what to do and say in order to get others to do what he wants. He did it every day with the students (all his speeches about "fighting the good fight"). He did it with Phyra (it's not a choice if you know they're going to say "yes"). He did it with Oscar (appealing to his good nature and "desire for adventure"). He's doing it with Team RNJR, Weisse and Yang.
While I agree 100% with the pyrrha not having a choice, I disagree with a lot of the other opinions you present. You say that "They aren't the most capable fighters, but they don't need to be. They just need to be able to kill grimm". Isn't that the entire thing their tribe is trying to avoid? If I remember correctly, that's a bandit tribe that raids and scavenges for supplies, constantly moving to avoid the grimm they draw in their wake. So them being average fighters isn't because they only need to fight grimm, it's because they actively avoid the grimm. This is coupled with the fact that we don't know their actual fighting strength, sure the regular lackies were easily taken out, but this is where Qrow and Raven grew up, and despite them being some of the better (possibly best) fighters before going to Beacon, I'd find it surprising if there was no one else closer to their level in the tribe. You present the academies as entirely designed and orchestrated by Ozpin for his benefits. You also say that Ozpin sends children to fight for him, and generally I just don't think these statements are true. Are they training children to fight? Definitely - under the constant eye of teachers and skilled huntsmen. Is Ozpin sending children out to fight against Salem's massive army without their knowledge and is this all designed directly for Ozpin's benefit in his war against Salem? Debatable, and here's why I think no: While it is true that they are training children to fight against Grimm, I think it unlikely that they are actually sending these children to do any proper work. They are training them so that when they are adults and fully trained, they can fight Grimm. This is arguably semantics, but when you keep stressing the "children" part in your argument, I think it acceptable to address it even if it is semantics. "But the children do fight grimm!" - yes, they do. But these generally are fairly weak Grimm and the kids have either gone off on their own or are under supervision, except for the (usually) very rare case where something major happens and the need every ounce of fighting force they can muster. While these 'very rare' cases have happened quite a few times in RWBY so far, overall, over the 80 or so years that huntsman academies have been around, this would have been exceptionally rare, as evidenced by the panic and chaos they cause. Going onto the knowledge part: I don't think they need to be told about Salem, nor should they expect to have been told about Salem until something major happens/they need to do something that requires them to know. Salem's 'army' are Grimm, and this is what they have signed up to fight, so are they really being 'used' to fight something they didn't sign up for? No. Are they fighting on a scale they didn't understand? Sometimes - except for certain trusted huntsmen, most are not doing much against Salem directly, they are doing exactly what they signed up for, dealing with Grimm on a day to day level, clearing out and maintaining the safety of areas inhabited (or close to) humans. Of course that has changed recently with Salem going on the offensive, however I still feel like just straight up telling all student huntsmen (or everyone) would be a bad idea. The Grimm feed off fear, hatred uncertainty, etc, so to tell everyone about Salem, you'd effectively be making Salem stronger, as who wouldn't get frightened when learning that the nameless beasts which have preyed on humanity actually have an evil, human hating mastermind behind them. Personally I'd be thinking "shit that must mean there's even stronger Grimm out there, how can we ever win". This might also lead to fewer people signing up to be huntsmen as they'd feel they'd be putting themselves at a much greater danger than they currently do, which in turn would make it harder to protect humanity from Grimm, even just your average ones. (Admittedly this whole point is my weakest) Lastly: The Academies. While they were only founded ~80 years ago, I firmly believe that similar institutions must have existed in the past. Why? Because it doesn't make sense for them not to have existed before. The very fact that there was a large war between civilisations so far away shows that each of them must have had civilisation and military competent enough to a) support each other without collapsing (military without civilisation would run out resources quickly, civilisation without military would not have survived such a war), b) easily get to other, much more dangerous parts of the world without endangering the people left behind due to fewer defences from Grimm, and c) cope with the losses from that war, both in a sustainable systems sense and an attracting Grimm sense. For civilisations capable of doing this (in a world as hostile as this) they would undoubtedly be training soldiers in schools/academies (Mantle definitely was, Qrow mentions it in the WoR:Atlas), and likewise if you're doing that, you're also sending other people to 'regular' schools/academies as they don't need to know how to fight, but instead help maintain the civilisation and improve it. You might ask "but the academy might have formed after the start of the war, as the war increased demand for especially good fighters", and yes, it might have, but I find this unlikely, as when the sole reason is to train people to send them to war as fast as possible and as cheaply as possible, they wouldn't make a full academy but a camp which churns through people only teaching them the basics, which wouldn't really work in this world as far as I can see. So what does this mean for Ozpin founding the Academies? Well the likelihood is that there already were many of these, but they would have been strongly linked to the kingdom they were in and possibly funnelling students straight to their kingdom's military. So from a "let's have peace" perspective, you'd want to try and abolish these as they directly contribute to each kingdom's ability to break the piece and restart the war - however you can't do that in this world due to Grimm, so you have to change what is there instead, ie concentrate the high level fighting academies into fewer, more easily monitored academies. While there may now be fewer highly trained combatants overall, this coupled with the Vytal Festival and the freedom for these people to move kingdom as they please, you have mostly ensured that they will not aid in a war between other countries*. The low amount of students trained also serves as a way to ensure that only the best combatants make it to a stage where they are fighting actual Grimm, keeping the casualties down (as long as there are enough, which is arguable), and allows them to receive the best education they can as the best teachers are concentrated in a single place. So to sum that up, it makes sense from both a peace keeping and a training point view to form the Huntsmen Academies. It just happens to coincide with Ozpin's plans for keeping the artifacts, or who knows, it could easily have been only after the decision to make the Academies that Ozpin realised that these could serve as more than just academies, but it doesn't matter either way as their founding is a good idea, regardless of other intentions. And to bring this all together: While Pyrrha and Oscar definitely didn't/don't have a choice in what they did/are doing, I'd say that all the other huntsmen do, they're fighting Grimm & protecting people and that's what they signed up to do, and if they don't like how they now have to suddenly fight against an organised Grimm then they can always run away, there's still nothing forcing them to fight or to follow Ozpin. (*yes I know that Atlas is still directly funnelling students to their military, but that's more an issue of the rest of the world not keeping the management there as accountable for the path the students take as they should.) Wow this was way longer than I intended, I have trouble concisely getting words from head to page, so sorry if it's rambling/hard to understand the point I'm trying to make at times. Also I'm not exactly 100% certain on all the RWBY lore, and I didn't do that much research for things I talked about, so please tell me if I've got some things wrong! Oh well, we'll find out what's actually going on at some point .
Thats the thing. The students do not know the risk. As far as theyre aware, theyre just fighting Grimm, not an intelligent force. Thats manipulation at its basest. Also, the fact that Oz has had access to relics for CENTURIES and he did nothing. He let Salem grow in power. How can someone who literally shaped society to his liking, not be aware of high profile characters defecting? Oz also has been alive at the faunus wars. Where was he? How come someone who shaped society was not able to make equality for faunus? He has been in positions of power for millenia, how is he not able to do it?
I actually don’t believe that inheritance of maiden powers would mean Pyhrra would die and amber would take over. When we think about it, Cinder took half of the maidens power and thus part of her aura right? But amber hasn’t been shown to have any influence over her. Also I completely disagree with the choice aspect. While I don’t trust Oz, however in the scene with Jaune and Qrow, I found myself realizing that while her options were lose-lose, she had the options to choose how she lost. Life isn’t fair. She was the only choice for the fall maiden powers. The only other possible candidates that might be able to inherit it and possibly effectively use it against Cinder would’ve been either Yang, Velvet and possibly Penny. And possibly Glynda if she isn’t one already or young enough to inherit it. Oz has framed the world in a way that he has set the pieces on the board and they have fight. That choice has been taken from them, however how, when and why they fight are all choices they must make and I believe those are the most important.
Silva well really the peices of the world have already been set even if oz and salem weren't there anymore the Grimm might still be anyway because we don't know how thier spawn pools work and salem doesn't control the action of every Grimm so just taking the Grimm into account remnant is a world where it's either fight or eventually die so theres a necessity for a group of people to fight(hell even without the Grimm there are times in the real world where it's necessary) also people have been going on about child soldiers when the only reason things like that have been happening is because they either seek it out themselves or are right there when shit goes wrong and have to fight and you can't call the acadamies child soldier camps because they enroll 17 year olds one year younger than the legal drafting age in the real world at least for America( plus they aren't deployed for any big serious mission till four years later when they become huntsman at 21 years old) and even then you have programs that are meant to lead into a military career that start acceptance as early as 13 years old very simular to the prep acadamys like what ruby was in before getting accepted into becon 2 years early so there's that
Cinder took the powers directly, not Ambers aura. Transplanting her Aura was supposed to keep Amber alive because the Maiden Powers would automatically reunite with Cinder's, which we saw did when she kills Amber. So yeah, Pyrrha would most likely have "died" with Amber filling in her skin. Maybe it would have been like Oscar where Amber and Pyrrha both exist rather than just Amber.
Champsr0ck2247 didn’t they state that they were transferring Ambers aura to Pyhrra as her powers were connected to Ambers aura? Thus it’s likely that even if Cinder directly took her power she’d be takin her aura as well as they are intertwined. That being said, if they aren’t connected then giving Pyrrha the aura wouldn’t also give her the power meaning it would’ve most likely just gone to Cinder anyway, and amber would then be transposed into Pyrrha’s body without her maiden powers.
@@Cooldude-ko7ps I mentioned Velvet already in my original comment. Coco got beaten by Emerald and had overal poor showings within the show. So the idea that she was a choice is quite literally only based in the thought that she has more experience and as I said Glynda is a much better option in that case. Or literally any adult huntress.
There is always a choice. For the huntsmen, they sign up knowing they might die, yes ospin didn't tell them exactly what they would be fighting, but they sign up knowing that the fight is real, that the danger is real. They sign up to protect the innocent at any cost, no matter the threat, it's the job they chose to do. And as for Pyrrha, the only way ospin could have stopped her from doing it was to never inform her in the first place, because as long as she knew that it was a possibility, Pyrrha would have gone through with it, no guilt trip required. But she was the best candidate, could have given the offer to someone else, but they would be faced with the same dilemma, and same moral struggle, no matter who you pick, so why not offer it to whose best suited for it? And that was Pyrrha. On the flip side, before Pyrrha had to make a choice ozpin had to choose, he could have let the maiden powers transfer to cinder when the current maiden died, but that would put thousands if not more at risk of harm, Ozpin had to make the same difficult choice Pyrrha did before he even offered it to her, the only difference is that by now Ozpin has had more experience in making and dealing with difficult choices than anyone. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman and child on this planet..."
You can actually say that Oscar didnt have a choice cos Ozpin as we know can control his body, and as time goes on, he'll be able to do it even more, so if it came to the point where Ozpin thought it was seriously important that Oscar goes but Oscar still refused, he might have taken control without his consent, been resented by Oscar but still wouldve fought in Haven Also, maybe the headmaster in charge of the relic develops the characteristics of that relic cos Ozpin surrounds his nature of thinking around choice, he had the Choice Relic, Leonardo was giving information to Salem, he had the Knowledge Relic
DivinePhoenix901 We dont actually know what Maiden is in which Kingdom yet, so we cant say that Winter will definitely be the Maiden for Atlas for Ironwood to take the role of Creation but it is a good thing you came up with though
Ship Master101 Well the Banner for Atlas is a torch, Torch equals lights. Light equals creation. So we know that kingdom could have the Relic of Creation. (This is mostly adapted from theories Via videos of TH-cam.) But if Winter is even there as of this moment... Also, since I am on the topic of Relic of Creation i might as well clear out my head-canon. When we get the Relic of Creation we will learn what it does, it may create life or does something else creation wise. This will make Jaune interested in it, he still has guilt over Pyrrhas death. He will take the Relic and possibly recreate Pyrrha She might have her memories of the past maybe not. But what she will remember is that she was killed and start attacking everyone in a delusional state. They will calm her down or knock her out, but whatever they do Pyrrha will be upset she is alive. She died believing in what she fought for, now that she is alive she has lost her peace. She will be upset at Jaune over reviving her and leave the teams as they stared speechless at her walking off, Jaune will now feel even more guilty because he thought about himself rather than the being of Pyrrha thus creating an Arc for him.(As if we haven't had enough of Jaune getting devloped more than Ruby...)(Whether this happens or not I do not know, it is just my head-canon. Leave your opinion.)
DivinePhoenix901 I dont really think that the relic could be creation just because of the light thing really cos to me, light doesnt really rerpresent creation at all, more so hope and stuff so yeah. And about your head canon, having th Relic of Creation doesnt really mean that you can bring people back cos its not creating, like you said, in a way its REcreating, meaning making it AGAIN. However I do actually agree with whatnyou said about Pyrrhas reaction to being bought back, it makes sense that she would think that she got brought back to a world of darkness, Grimm and war when she was perfectly fine and at peace before. Although this is your head canon so you can obviously feel free to go about this however you want to, Im just saying what I think about it
What if Ozpin lied. His Cane is the Choice relic. He can cause others to choose what he wants. He can choose to tell them a lie, and have them choose to believe it. There's also the Chekov Gun from s1 Yang says, "He didn't seem all there" maybe because he knew none of them had their own choice? Just my theory.
Well, choices are an illusion in a way. I define "choice" solely as "the act of making a decision". And decisions are predetermined by your character/nature/trait/temper, your knowledge, and your environment. Because that is what you use to choose.
The choice is made when you decide to become a huntsmen. In my opinion its like the military in real life. The main difference is that they have to make the choice sooner because its not just learning to use a firearm. Its learning an entire fighting style for a weapon and manipulating a magic force to enhance your abilities. The choice is made early yes but once your in its not always clear what your fighting for. You fight for what you believe and until Ozpin proves that what he wants is misaligned with what you as the huntsman want. You will continue to fight
There is the choice to become a huntsmen, but once you are one, you are automatically part of Salem and Ozpin's war. By unknowingly becoming part of that conflict you lose your choice. PS I love you content. It makes me rethink things from a different perspective.
Charles Hockenbury don't worry about the long read, I've done the equivalent of a long essay question in the comments before. Also, I appreciate you putting in your idea in response to mine
I believe there was a mix here, Ozpin designed the world as it was today in order to create the strongest option he felt possible to quell the grimm and fight salem, but he also never informed humanity of what the real threat was or gave them the opportunity to fight with a full hand in not telling them about magic. You cannot make a full decision without all the knowledge necessary, and Ozpin arranged things to destroy that possibility.
"I've made more mistakes than any man, woman or child on this planet..." Every hard decision these kids have had to make, Ozpin has had to make himself several times over, the difference is by now he has become so used to making and dealing with difficult choices.
I remember when I started watching RWBY, and I was like, “oh! Ozpin is like the kind, wise one who can do know wrong!” But then, so many things started happening. And now I can’t trust him. He’s manipulating people behind the veil of the “kind, wise one who can’t do no wrong” and I don’t like that. He’s deceiving all of us. Not just the characters, but the viewers. This show goes so much deeper than I though it would go.
Salem isn't *just* Ozpin's problem. Salem is humanity's problem. She wants to destroy humanity. It's debatable whether Ozpin is even technically human, so he many not even *need* to fight for humanity. He's not raising an army for his "agenda," he's teaching humanity to defend themselves against their mortal enemy, and it's definitely necessary. Do you really think a world where everyone lives like the Branwen Tribe is better than a world with Kingdoms protected by Huntsmen? More to the point, I'd argue that every Huntsman and Huntress absolutely had a choice to be so. Nobody forced them to join the academies and become warriors. There are plenty of people in Remnant who *aren't* warriors, and nobody ever shames them for that. The life they choose has risks, but Remnant needs Huntsmen, it needs people to fight against Salem, because she threatens to destroy it all, and so I'd argue that people *should* choose to fight. If anyone is taking away humanity's choice, it's not Ozpin. It's Salem. She's the reason the Huntsmen have to exist in the first place. She's forcing them to fight and die to protect their family and their people. All the more reason to join Ozpin, and fight.
Ozpin never was trustworthy, not after he started keeping secrets from Salem the first time he reincarnated. He could have easily avoided this by refusing to help the god of light after all.
Kind of reminds me how Ozpin structured the team composition method. It seems like you have a ridiculous amount of choice - like a Battle Royale - but secretly Ozpin knew how the teams would come together the whole time, and who would be leading them.
While I can certainly agree that Oscar never really had any choice, I think the question of choice as it relates to the students has another layer to it. There's another choice that each of the students made, a choice that was a prerequisite for all of the other choices discussed here: the choice to enroll at Beacon and become a huntsman/huntress in the first place. That was a choice that each of the students made of their own free will, a choice to take up a profession that entailed risking and possibly even sacrificing their lives to protect others. Now, the natural counter-argument is how could these 17-year-olds (or 15) possibly make such a huge decision in an informed manner? However, keep in mind what we know about these characters. Out of the 8 members of RWBY and JNPR, Ruby, Yang, and Ren have all lost loved ones who were either huntsmen or the closest equivalent (you can also add Nora into this group, since she was present for the attack that killed Ren's family). These characters know from close personal experience what the cost of a career as a huntsman can be. Jaune has a family tradition of being huntsmen or warriors going back four generations, and so he probably knows more about that life than just the glamorous side of it (think about people who grow up with family members in the military). Blake may not have any direct experience with huntsmen that we know of, but certainly no one could say that she's naive or uninformed about the "real world". Likewise, even though Weiss' upbringing has been sheltered in some ways, she also shows that she understands quite a bit about the ugly side of the world beyond the mansion walls. The only one of the main 8 that we don't have as much background on is Pyrrha, but the other 7 all clearly have substantial context to understand the full implications of being a huntsman/huntress, and made a conscious and relatively informed decision to pursue that career anyway. Several scenes throughout the series (most notably in v2e10, Mountain Glen) emphasize that the main characters recognize the implications of that choice, and that they accept what they've chosen even though they don't have every detail worked out. Ruby's fangirl moment in the very first episode notwithstanding, the main characters don't seem to have any illusions about the career they've chosen to pursue. Now, obviously that doesn't mean that there isn't any manipulation going on. The symbolism of that is plainly evident almost from the beginning, with the use of chess pieces as the "relics" they're assigned to retrieve in the Emerald Forest. So yes, the students are implicitly accepting their roles as pieces in a game played by Ozpin and Salem. However, while the students don't understand the details of that game at the time (and arguably still don't know all the details), it is important to remember that they did understand in general terms that they were entering a "game" that very well could have life-and-death consequences, and each of them freely chose to do so.
Your theories and reviews are awesome man. You not only point out pros and cons, but provide ideas for improvement, not a lot of people would go that extra mile, myself included. I only hope Miles and Karry watch some of your stuff, because if they did, volume 6 might not turn out like volume 5 did.
The thing is, even though I agree with all this and think that very few characters in this story ever had a meaningful choice, I can't really say that what Ozpin is doing is wrong. Everything he does, he does to protect man/faunuskind and save lives. He uses the Huntsman Academies to create child soldiers because indoctrinating children with the ideals of selfless heroism at a young age is the most reliable way to create warriors who will consistently choose to fight against Salem's forces - which leads to them protecting the Kingdoms, and saving lives. He guilted Pyrrha into sacrificing her individual consciousness to become the Fall Maiden because it was the best way to ensure that she would say yes, and she was the best candidate - meaning that she could use those powers to fight the most effectively and save the most lives. He convinces Oscar to take on the life of a Huntsman, as well as conveniently failing to mention that he's effectively going to die when his consciousness fully integrates with Ozpin's, so that he can get the most possible use out of this new reincarnation - which he can use to counteract the turmoil that Salem has thrown the Kingdoms into, protect the relics, and save lives. Even if many of these characters are just Ozpin's chess pieces, he's undoubtedly using them for the greater good. But he really ought to shut up about how much of a choice he's giving people like Pyrrha. He's sacrificing their free will for the greater good, he should at least own up to it.
This is a pretty interesting video. However, it makes me think that, the more dire the situation- the more a choice will tip the scale, the less of a true choice that the individual will be asked to make, and that's something you brought up on both sides of this. Those that think they'll just be fighting Grimm have a more lax decision. There's no real pressure to be a hunter, since there are plenty of people who can do that job. The people who know about Salem and all that, however, will feel obligated to help in this fight or live in utter fear because instead of strong beasts and maybe their homes, they would have to contend with a godlike being for the fate of their world.
Love the video :) but it's not an illusion of choice. It's just the hard choice that some characters were brave enough to make. There are many people making a choice to stand with Ozpin and his shadiness or Salem and her destructiveness. Those who don't, like Raven, make a choice to only look after her own. Even at the cost of abandoning her husband, daughter, and brother. --Leo Lionheart made a choice too and betrayed all of the huntsmen under him. --Weiss and Winter leave their cushy lives as princesses to fight, while Whitley is fine with being at home and following Jaques. --Blake chooses to leave the white fang, she chooses to run away even when Yang needed her there. --Ghira and Kali choose to be pacifists instead of violent like Adam and lose control of the organization they started. --Sienna Khan refuses outside help, Adam does and kills her. Which Hazel didn't even want to happen, it was Adam's choice --Yang chooses to leave her old personality behind when her eyes change color as she runs by mercury grabbing her prosthetic --Ironwood decides to depose Ozpin and creates the scenario where all the Atlassian tech goes haywire --Pyrrha makes the ultimate choice. She chose the world over herself and love. We all know because of that kiss. Furthermore, because you focused on Pyrrha I'll focus as well. She's based on Achilles. The man who chose to die in battle instead of living a long life, knowing full well that it would happen. Pyrrha was thrust in a very bad situation, but in actuality Cinder rescued her from that choice by shooting Amber and finishing the job. Pyrrha's REAL choice, which SHE made even though Ozpin told them to just run away and Jaune screamed NO DON'T DO THIS, was to go fight Cinder and die trying. Lastly, and most disturbing, is Summer Roses's words to Ruby which talks about choice: This bedtime story ends with misery ever after The pages are torn, and there’s no final chapter I didn’t have a choice, I did what I had to do; I made a sacrifice, but forced a bigger sacrifice on you I know you've lived a nightmare; I caused you so much pain But baby, please don’t do what I did; I don’t want you to waste your life in vain Summer had no choice, but she wants Ruby to choose freely. And Ruby decided that she'll go save the world.
It's still a choice, even if the alternative is a worse scenario. She could have asked if there was another candidate, or refused if only to gather support so they could hunt down the person who attacked Amber. Simplistically, you could choose to jump in front of a train to save a doctor who could save hundreds of lives, and an honorable person like Pyrrha would do it in a heartbeat, but saying the person didn't have a choice because the alternative was watching the doctor die and potentially sacrificing other people's lives for your own is more of a question of morality than free will.
Choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities. Technically Pyrrah had a choice, no matter the stakes at hand. You really painted a picture that this fight was originally a fight between Ospin and Salem and Ospin started training little kids to fight in his favor. Ok well is that a bad thing? I mean Salem had grim and Ospin was one man fighting a woman that literally hates life. Can you imagine a world run by Salem?? I don't blame Ospin. Honestly I think hes doing the right thing. Do all the kids hes training have a choice if they dont know fully what they are fighting? By definition Yes. Is there information that held back by Ospin in regards to Salem that could have changed the kids choice to be a student? Maybe.. But look at it this why. All the kids there are there to kick grim ass and save lives. But there are alot of students for sure that join the schools that don't really know the features of a warrior that make that person a defender of the inocent, so at the school they learn to fight, they learn selflessness for the week and strong and they learn to stand up for what is right. Ultimatly we can look at this liek the Spartan 2 program. If the kids wherent taken and trned into spartans then they would not have been able to save the universe. Now take the same concept and apply it here. Except here its not so corrupt and they are fighting for a very realavent cause.
ultimately yes there is a choice. regardless of ulterior motives and the illusion of choice you have to choose to either run and hide or stand your ground and fight even if just to prove this was your own choice. it's the same thing when you choose to sign up for actual military. you don't choose where you really go or who you may end up killing over the course of your career but you chose to walk the path of a soldier. humanity in general is always viewed as weak which is why you have public masses quick to blame someone when things go wrong. bottom line yes, i do believe there is a choice. even if the choices were like pyrrha's case she still had to make a choice for herself since the illusion of choice is a gamble where unless ozpin has been using beacon academy's relic to influence choices then you have a valid argument.
when you live for several thousand years you kind of get an understanding of people and who to ask in a dire situation. Like pyrrha ozpin knew shed make the right choice because of her sense of judgement. Ask anybody else and they wouldve outright said no. Its not they didnt have a choice, its the fact that ozpin choose people who would make the right ones
If I tell her mother that she can either murder 30 people or let her child die did I give her a choice or did I give her something that I knew she would do because her instincts compel her to do something
No there isn’t. Not in RWBY anyway. We’re not talking about the real world. We’re talking about in the show and clearly none of the characters had a real choice in what they had to do. The show is set to progress in one way without any real deviances (Except for pandering in the latter seasons) but constantly gives off an illusion that the characters had a choice in the matter and “chose” to do what is perceived to be the right thing.
Of the three examples only Hansel had a real choice. Phyrra was lose lose, and Oscar will eventually merge with Ozpin who would leave the farm once that happened
This is why I was soo mad while watching Volume 3. It was soo stupid to dump all this responsibility on a student, a non Adult!! It's just not right. To see Pyrrha struggle because of that, it really pains me...
I agree. I think it was a mistake on RT’s part on killing Pyrrha off. I think what they should’ve done is keep her around and give out more character development for her and Jaune in their relationship with each other. I was mad that they didn’t even bother to expand their relationship. I think to me it was poor planning on Ozpin’s part on dumping all this responsibility on Pyrrha.
Theres always a choice. Whether you like the outcome of the choice or not is irrelevant. You can be 99.9% right about Pura doing the right thing but there still a 0.1% chance that you could be wrong. For example choosing to save 1 million people over one person sounds logical, however in the Matrix Neo chose to save the love of his life if it meant possibly sacrificing all of Zion. Most people would frown upon that choice, but it was still a choice. Everything in life is a choice. It’s all about personal preference and how you carry yourself as a human being.
Except they can choose to quit being huntmen (raven), take a possibly permanent break due to life issues (Tai Yang), become mercenaries that hire themselves out instead of choosing to be soldiers for the kingdom that trained them, that sounds like a few options to me.
If I remember right, when Cinder got Amber's power, Ozpin explicitly told Pyrrha to run and get Glynda, Ironwood, and Qrow...but Pyrrha didn't do this, she--for whatever reason--chose to go back and fight after Ozpin was slain and after Cinder pretty much rendered her agreement with him null-and-void. She could have escaped with her life and fought Cinder with her comrades another day, but she didn't. Oscar's situation is a bit harder to judge. Would Ozpin have kept pestering him until he left the farm or would he have left to find another host? That's nether here nor there, at this point. As for Gretchen...her big brother (presumably her only guardian) told her not to enroll at Beacon because "she was only a child, she wasn't ready", but she did it anyway. Unless Ozpin was controlling her mind or something, I'm convinced that it was her choice and her death is no one's fault but her own.
I have a Theory: What if Gretchen Rainart{Hazel's little sister} was only a 1st Year??? ~~Back in V2, Team RWBY tried to take a Mission that was above their Year Grade. It was Ozpin that gave them the OK and told them to Listen to the Huntsman assigned to them. What if, There was No "Assigned Huntsman" for 1st Years back then? Ozpin purposefully did the same thing he did for Team RWBY with Gretchen's Team, but without the Extra Protection of a Huntsman...
Even if he would have send RWBY without a huntsmen and they've died: they wanted to be there and they knew fully well, that there's a good chance to meet the White Fang. Also: remember they thinking about "breaking the rules"?
You didn't really read the comment, Because it wasn't about Team RWBY. ~I was saying, What if Ozpin "Broke the Rules" for Gretchen's Team, like he did for Ruby's? However, since Gretchen was Killed, Going on a Mission she was never suppose to, Ozpin was blamed for this. To Increase Safety for 1st years{who are Under trained/Not as Experienced Children}, Ozpin{either forced by new Regulations or his own decision} began pairing them with Huntsman for their first mission. That way, If something were to happen to them, It's the Huntsman that would be taking the Blame/responsibility
You could just apply team RWBY 1:1 to them? Your point was, that Gretchen's team - much like team RWBY - was sent to a mission she's not supposed to do. I did rather just changed team RWBY in place, because we do have a full set of circumstances, while with team Gretchen, we do not have anything.
It's fun to see a video that echoes what I've been saying for months. My main problem is that it feels like RT doesn't fully understand what they've done. At this point, Ozpin has done far too many immoral and dishonest things to just be forgiven and still be seen as a "good person." As a result, the only satisfying way this can play out is that Ozpin gets called on his BS, whether he's a villain or just misguided, and Ruby and her friends forge their own path to protect the world and make it a better place. Unfortunately, RT seems to generally treat it like Ozpin deserves to hold the moral high ground. When Jaune calls out the ultimatum they gave Pyrrha for the dishonest abuse of her kind-hearted nature that it was and Qrow shuts him down, they just let him win the argument. It's the same story when Ozpin explains what he did to Raven and Qrow, minus the little promise for transparency Yang gets him to make, which he immediately breaks by not telling them about Hazel and anything else relevant that he knows about anyway. The worst instance (and worst moment from the whole show IMO) is definitely when he explained about Gretchen. It's a rushed little exposition dump that takes no more than 10 seconds and is coming from the most biased person possible, who has already been called out as a liar in front of Oscar, yet the kid trusts him on it completely and makes this ridiculous speech about how a girl he's never met or even heard of before now made a choice and how the guy who was in charge of preparing her to fight (remember she died while still in training) is not at all responsible for her dying while under his tutelage. He even adds that he too is making a big, important choice to stand and fight for a cause he's known about for like a month, having never fought before, and being talked into leaving his home without even letting his aunt know (and he honestly didn't have a choice to stay home anyway, even if you do count it when he's being steered towards a certain choice, because eventually Ozpin would just take over by force like he did when fighting Hazel). Despite how clearly wrong Oscar is to behave this way, this speech is presented as this triumphant moment of personal growth for Oscar, like it's something the audience is supposed to cheer him on for. That tells me that RT wants us to trust Ozpin, that they don't think they made him untrustworthy.
For Oscar and Pyrrha? no. Ozpin likely can't control who's head he ends up in, he's like the male equivalent of the maidens XD and Nikko's was pressured into doing it, but the choice was technically there.
As always, great video and analysis. I agree in not trusting Ozpin, not only because of what Raven says but because he refuses to let people make 'informed' choices. They don't really know what they're signing up for, who Salem is, any of it. To a degree there is justification, because Grimm do feed on fear and other negative emotions, but I think we're stuck with a 'lesser evil' situation between him and Salem. There's also a very strong chess motif, with the chess pieces in the first season, Cinder's symbol of the black queen, the idea that this competition between Salem and Oz has been going back hundreds or thousands of years... At this point whether Salem can be defeated or not, the people of Remnant have become pieces in their back and forth game throughout history.
Ozpin has shared having a body before, it's an ability he has that's allowed him to exist so long. So... what happened to the original owner of his former body before Oscar? There he seemed fully in control. And how could he lose to Cinder when he created the Maiden powers? If he made four he should be stronger than the four out together. Every time he transfers to a new host his powers reset???
It seems like the more distant you are from Ozpin (nomatter if you're going to Beacon Academy) the more choice/options you have, the closer the are the less choice you get (like Pyrrha) so... Why trust Ozpin again if he has that kind of strategy planned already?
I agree with you on Pyrrha and Oscar being given ultimatums. I would suggest that Gretchin made the choice to become a huntress and has thus sorta foefeited her life to defend humanity even if she isnt aware of the full threat. That happens in out world too, children and young adults make life changing decisions without fully understanding what's at stake even if the stakes are rarely life or death. Specifically with Qrow's defense of Pyrrha's "choice," I always thought Qrow sounded like he was sticking to that ideology because he has trouble stomaching the reality of the situation theyd dropped on Pyrrha and probaby several other Maidens before her that Qrows been around to see. He sounds a little forced when he says she chose kinda like hes trying to reaffirm it for himself. But that being said her decision to fight Cinder at the tower was abosolutely a choice, regardless of her personal philosophy. Ozpin had no real need of her after she failed to have the power transfered though I believe he did still care for her as his student. So her death was ultimately of her own making.
Short answer is no. No there isn't and the reason for that is because Ozpin's a shady person who shouldn't be trusted. Also there supposedly all doing this because it's their destiny which implies it's not their choice. One of these things is not like the other.
My opinion on the "Destiny Says So" trope is very simple: Take the universe and grind it down into the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of destiny, one molecule of duty, and yet great men believe that there is some great voice that calls them to adventure, some preordained mandate dictated by a higher power that judges us mortals by its dubious morality requiring them to take a certain action.
Skyler Maves They have a choice: run from their chance to change the world for the better/protect the peace *OR* embrace it for all that comes with it good and bad. It's their option. Ruby decided from a young age that she wanted to help and protect people. With every challenge and people trying to kill others? She's finding more and more reasons to stick to her decision. Knowing pyrrah? She wouldn't change her choice. She'd still protect the people, even if she didn't become the maiden. She chose. Hazel's sister chose to put others ahead of herself. Oscar chose to do the right thing because Ozpin didn't withhold anything from him. *They. All. Have. A. Choice. & they chose.*
No. Ozpin gave Pyrrha an ultimatum: become a Seasonal Maiden and potentially die or save herself and risk the world suffering. Ozpin didn't tell Oscar everything (making your statement about withholding anything false), not to mention that Oscar initially did not want to head to Mistral and was reluctant to stay. As for Ruby Rose, Ozpin looked at her, pointed out that she had silver eyes, and gave her an offer she can't refuse. As for Greta, we do not know the full details, so we can't make any conclusions.
CrystalOtaku93 What is the right thing? What if Ozpin isn't who he claims to be? What if in truth they never had a choice because it's their destiny to 'do the right thing'? My point being if destiny is a thing that the fact that they have a 'choice' makes no sense because destiny isn't in their control.
If ozpin controls magic why is no one considering the fact he could’ve passed the power down for amber who is unable to do so the reason he didn’t (I think) was due to him wanting to save his magical reserves to fight Salem plus he needed amber not phyrra so by his logic phyrra had to give her life for ambers
Now I understand where you are coming from however Qrow was right. She did have a choice. Though I will agree her choices weren't great. Become the Fall Maiden or allow the powers fall to evil; yet still she had the choice. Everyday someone out there has to make a choice of similar magnitudes. Which is why I believe the processes of choice was still relevant just as she made the choice to face Cinder Fall alone rather than allow her to destroy Becon or Vale without a fight.
"They don't need to be the most capable fighters; they just need to be able to kill grimm." Paraphasing. Another day, another shed of evidence to undermines the reason why huntsman exist.
In the case of Pyrrah, Oscar and the Maidens, no their wasn't a choice. As for people who enrolled in the Huntsmen Academies, that kinda 50/50 for me. On the one hand they are soldiers fighting Ozpin's war without even realizing it. Hell, they've been unknowingly given the task of protecting the most powerful objects know to man. But on the other hand, they did choose to enroll in the schools whether it was for honor, glory, of because they simply wanted to do the right thing. Maybe they aren't being told everything and maybe they are fighting a war, but even if things weren't as they are, their is always a chance that they would one day be called to war. It's a slim chance perhaps, but it's still a chance.
I see a lot of people agree with Fang here, but I have to disagree. Yeah, Pyrrha was justice oriented. Ozpin knew what choice she would make. But knowing someones intentions isn't cause for belief of manipulation. Ozpin, as I see it, just told her the facts. If you do this, it could go horribly wrong. If you do the alternative, THAT could go horribly wrong. She chose one, and it went horribly wrong in a way that no one expected, character wise. The second issue, I really think is a case of oddity, I mean I don't see any confirmed information where the kingdom is tailor made to encourage Hunters as a common job. The reason there ARE hunters is to specialize in killing the monsters, because as seen in Rens town, there are many a monster that normal people can't fight. Yes the kingdoms have existed for long without the Hunters, but you can't assume they didnt have problems, especially considering Mountain Glen, Ren's backstory, and the general confirmation that you can't have a long lasting civilisation outside of the main kingdoms, even with Hunter patrols. As for being Ozpins fight against Salem, that could be a possibility, but it's more than likely not the case, as we don't see any proof of hunters provided with missions dealing with anything but Grim intentionally, ignoring those who are handpicked by Ozpin to know about Salem.
Me:*looks at thumbnail* Me:Don’t even gotta watch it to know my side lol. But I will. Yep still on the same side. Telling someone the secrets of the world and it’s evil then asking them to choose to help or live the rest of your life knowing this life shattering news is wrong. Ozpin loves Ultimatums.
You forget. In volume five ,Oscar/Ozpin said that his power was reduced and waning. He likely doesn’t have nearly the strength he had back in the Great War days. He probably needs Huntsmen to compensate for that loss. Yet another cane for him to lean on.
Talking about "choise", its interesting you left out Raven and Crow's "choice" to be given the ability to turn to birds... if it was Ravens choice, why would she be so against it now, was it like Ozpin's huntsmen, where they were given part of the information when given the option, only to discover, later on, that there was more to it?
TheJaredPunch By that logic if Ozpin was able to make his own choices he would have defeated Salem the first time and no one would have died (from Grimm and Salem anyways) the definition of choice you're using here is so narrow that no one has it fictional or otherwise.
That's a fact? I thought, that fighting Cinder even so she knew fully well how strong she is was her choice... ^^ That much to "with her own choices she would be still alive".
The chess pieces that ozpin made them get during their entrance exam really have more depth now. Everyone is just a chess piece there is no choice to what they do. They're just chess pieces that ozpin controls and move according to how he wants whether they want to and he's fine with sacrificing a piece(Pyrrha) if it means it'll save the queen(Amber)
Yes. I find this idea to be kind of bull shit. For Pyrrha yes it looks like she's being taken advantage of but she could have thought it out and decided that it either wasn't worth it or she couldn't trust it would work. because it's not "save herself or everyone else" it was "try this risky plan and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't". She was given the same choice as Qrow, Ironwood, or Ozpin. Also I don't really get the Ozpin dislike, what is there that is actually not trustworthy, like solidly not head-canon., what has Ozpin does? He's not solely in charge, he's not all powerful, and sometimes things go wrong. What has he actually done wrong or untrustworthy? Hazel's sister was a kid in an accident, so what not Ozpin's fault. Ren's parents died to Grimm, who knows what happened to Nora's family, so yeah a kid that wanted to fight Grimm ended up dying because something went wrong, do you expect Ozpin to be omnipresent or something?
Because Ozpin's methods are questionable morals, if you look closely Ozpin is not so different from Salem, with everything we've seen both see the world as a chess board, thousands dead for their actions, either directly or indirectly , and along with create a world where there are not real alternative roads,as Kain would say:" Free will is an illusion"
+Tyrael, OK let's me repeat myself, scratch that I'll copy-paste "solidly not head-canon" that's how you feel and headcanon what you see his decisions as, not what he's actually done. Show me what he's done that shows that. +Zone but he hasn't. He's trained kids to fight Grimm, because yeah training people to fight monsters helps everyone's life span, he's not made anyone fight Salem at any time, nor has he specifically done anything to train them just to fight her.
If you really think well Ozpin has caused more harm than good, if you notice how things are done in Remmant clearly there a stagnation, it acts like the typical Big Brother, only controlling everything from the shadows and with his own private army of child soldiers, which do not know why he is really fighting, not to mention that his vision of the human race is something very simplistic, just look at Beacon before his fall, it was practically a city in a bottle, in reality his methods do not work, best thing that can happen to stop Salem is that someone else implements a new modus operandi
That's just stupid, and I mean STUPID. Did you miss the part where Ozpin answers to the Council, they can literally kick him out of Beacon they said so. Heck even ironwood, who has more political power then Ozpin apparently, Jacqui said even he'd need to bow to the Atlas Council. So no, you're argument is just stupid, Ozpin isn't in control, he does not control the kids, he did not have Beacon as a "city in a bottle" and we have no ideas how his methods work before this incident.
There is always a choice, but Ozpin was very clever in positioning them. Pyrrha was just and centered in her sense to protect humanity above all, and her skills and combat prowess caught Ozpin's attention. He simply chose her because she was less likely to go against him. Oscar didn't seem to have a choice, Ozpin's soul was merging with his and I don't think he could resist Oz for long. But he could have chosen to resist, he could have chosen to ignore and fight to his death, but Ozpin looks for minds like his, as he explains in Vol. 5. The fact that not many people are willing to accept is that Ozpin is in the Neutral Good spectre, and could be considered an anti-hero of sorts. He has a goal, and if lives have to be sacrificed, so be it. But while I don't trust his statements, I believe that what he has done is right. He said that he made more mistakes than anyone on Remnant, and there are a lot of things to consider there (creating the maidens?). So while he must lie to keep things going, he needs to lie or the war is lost. If people knew that Salem existed, and she was the master of the grimm, they would panic because of the prevalence the Grimm had over humanity, and the seemingly endless potential they had. TL;DR, I'm with Oz, but I'll question him whenever I can, just like Yang does.
Was there a choice for Oscar? Not really; Ozpin is a part of him now, and considering his last body, where is no sign of another consicence, Ozpin is going to take over Oscar's body at some point. This was also forshadowed at the beginning of he show: "It's a bout a man with two souls, each of them fighting for control".
Dave175 T We know his reincarnation abillity was forced upon him and he seems willing to just advice the bonded person unless he think that they‘re not able to handle it.
One thing to consider is that the relic of choice is the crown tiara thingy, the very same article of clothing worn by Pyrrah at all times, and that it is the finest metal the smith in Minstral has found, perhaps fine enouh to be a relic? Where is the safest place Ozpin can think of for the relic? If he knew Cinder had some of he Fall maiden's power, he would know it isn't safe in the vault, so why not move it secretly, and trust it to the world champion to keep safe?
Yes, yes I am, however, I don't believe Pyrrah know that she did, and there was no way for her to knaw, similar to the way that you would have to say "Djin"
Oz: if you don't become the fall maiden, everyone will likely die and it'll be your fault, plus you may not be the same person afterwards. But it's your choice. Pyrrah: that's not a choice. That's an ultimatum.
no salam is and has always been humanity's problem they are called grimm and also you think that before the acadamies were built children weren't taught to fight and sent to die that's laughable it would actually be far more necessary back then to have kids who can take care of themselves if the Grimm show up and all that and on several points you made I think ren and nora most likely being the only survivors including children from thier village would like some words that's the problem with some of your videos you make good points and I can enjoy them but at times and this happens a lot when you talk about ozpin you seem to have a idea in your head about how things are and then make excuses for yourself/to yourself I typically see this kinda behaviour in reactors who have watched something before hand and to make themselves look smart go off on a "theory" tangent that amounts to what sounds like nothing but excuses for why they "think" that when its just they already know whatever their talking about in your case it's like you have a idea of what's right in your head and are then grasping at straws and ignoring other things that might contradict it to prove yourself right at times and it can make you hard fo watch it's why I try to avoid your videos when ozpin pops up because I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion that you might have a bit of a hate boner for the man( not trying to offend you just putting this out there like I said I enjoy your videos but at times you can be kinda headache enducing far to, straight laced? maybe is the words for it or a type of narrow mindedness and that can lead to problems taking you seriously)
Kameronia 6 I was saying that cause at the start he said ol pyrah had a choice to become the spring maiden but she was presented with the fall maiden powers not spring lol
But she's not dead, because of the choice to take the power of the fall maiden, instead of her choice to fight Cinder. That much about she didn't had a choice, she had even two times a choice ^^
Loved the video, and i agree. I'm reminded of a line from the Vol. 2 Opening "Are we heroes keeping peace or are we weapons, pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory." it makes you wonder, how many more people he manipulated, like Summer and how he's probably manipulating Ruby. It also brings Qrow into question since he, to quote JacOneManBand "Drank the Kool-Aid"
jared wood things is that these kids aren't being put into real huntsman work yet. They're still training until they become adults. I don't get how people say "Ozpin uses kids in his war" Yes they start Beacon at 17 and combat schools at a younger age. But again they're only being trained. By the time they get into real huntsman work, they're adults
Abiel Sanchez that's what I mean he says child soldiers when they really don't count what they do is not so different from somthing like a military boarding school exept nicer or somthing like rotc with the intent of starting a military career once they are old enough to enlist in. on top of that the Grimm are everywhere and kids should probably be taught how to defend themselves anyway sure huntman go out and hunt the Grimm but that doesn't stop them from rolling in on the town and killing everyone having people at least being able to take care of themselves seems like kind of a necessity
First, great video and good on you for sparking interesting conversations! I think it really comes down to how you define “making a choice”. To make a choice there has to be options to choose from, and a person picks based on information they have. Pyrrha did technically choose to sacrifice herself over refusing to help Ozpin and the rest. There was a lot of pressure, a tiny timeframe to really think on it, and her helpful nature at play, so like you said her decision would be obvious. I do still see it as a choice, but it is important to denote what external factors were at play. Making a decision to potentially sacrifice your life when you know that people you look up to are expecting you to, a lifelong sense of responsibility weighs on your shoulders, and the social norms of a hunter/huntress society are at your back is much much different than deciding what type of ice cream to have for dinner, but a choice nonetheless. To her, saving people is most important. Whether that’s intrinsic to her nature or nurtured into her by the society she grew up in, it’s still important to her and she still makes the decision with that in mind. This reminds me of the the deterministic/free will discussions. If a person has grown up in the United States and has a kind heart, they’re very likely to have very strong opinions on mistreating people and freedom. If that same person was born into a cut throat mafia family, they almost certainly would have different values. So do you really have control over yourself or your own views at all? If every decision you make is already decided based on your nature and your nurture, are you really deciding? When it comes down to that level it almost doesn’t seem like it matters all that much to me. What’s the difference in me having free will and deciding on something and what I would decide already being set in stone based on who I am and my experiences? I know I’m getting a little far from the original topic but it feels relevant enough to throw in! Apologies ahead of time for incomplete thoughts and typos. It’s five in the morning where I’m at :)
I'm on Qrow's side with the Pyrrha situation. They made sure that she actively vocally agreed to the transfer. If she had refused, while disappointed, Ozpin and Co.(except for maybe Ironwood) would have understood and let her go about her life. She had made her choice. Admittedly they stacked the deck in their favor by picking the best student with probably the purest or second purest heart at beacon, but Salem and Cinder were already stacking the deck. Also Ozpin isn't training kids(Ruby and Oscar being the exception) Most of the students at the 4 academies are college aged or within a year of that Age. They start at 17 which is around the age you'd graduate High School. It's the start of the next stage in your life where you are your own person. And by the time they graduate into proper Huntsmen they'd be at least 20 maybe 21 depending on their birthday. We also don't know how gretchen died. Its possible that whilest fighting Grimm she perished. They never tell us so it could be any number of things. Hell maybe Salem did kill Gretchen to get Hazel on her side and framed it Ozpin's fault. We literally don't know. Oscar didn't really have a choice I'll be honest. But neither did Ozpin. It seems the FNDM sees Ozpin as like Palpatine, he's shady plotting and powerful and that aint good. I see Ozpin as being like Dumbledore, mysterious and powerful, but mysterious for a reason and probably a good one.
Technically, Oscar did have a choice. He could have ignored Ozpin and stayed on the farm. Could Ozpin have detached himself from Oscar and found another host I don't know. If not, would he have kept pestering Oscar until he agreed, would he have took over his body by force, or would he have just laid dormant in him until he grew old and died? I don't know.
@@realJoeMavro i doubt ozpin had the ability to force control on the farm. I imagine he has to connect to the current host before he can take the wheel so to speak
I like the video but I have a few issues with it 1. Ozpin's war is if you really think about it everyone's war wether they like it or not if Salem wins everyone is screwed that's not Ozpin's fault 2. I don't think knowing what pyrah would do equates to force 3. Maidens and the abilities in RWBY are very inconsistent despite how much I love the show and if you think about it Maidens aren't all that powerful they aren't gods despite their power's what makes them strong is practice and skill like any other Huntsmen or Huntress. Raven beat Cinder cause she has 10 years of experience as a maiden, Cinder, Emerald and Mercury beat Amber fairly easily despite her being a maiden. It seems like despite their powers they can be defeated by someone stronger and they don't even have to be a maiden so if Pyrah had refused we know that full fall maiden can be defeated like any other opponent 4. The information your given in my mind is irrelevant considering that they made the choice to be Huntsmen or Huntress their was a risk of death whether or not they knew of Salem 5. Just because humanity was defending itself doesn't mean that would always be the case considering the Grimm have a super intelligent master that would've eventually destroyed humanity sooner if the schools weren't made
The date is October 24th, 2018. Volume 6 is coming out in three days. We're about to see new things. New characters. New stories. New plot twists. *And I still want Pyrrha back.*
There was a choice only it was Ozpins choice or before him the choices of those two brother gods. choices made by powerful figures leading others into impossible scenarios. showing that life is what we make of it but always formed by what came before.
i also just again like to point out the few super important lines of rwby volume 2 intro: were we born to fight and die? sacrifced for one huge lie? are we heroes keeping peace? or are we weapons pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory wich perfecly explains whats happening and backing the video's motives (if you ask me)
The World building of RWBY when it comes to the "Great War" and the conflict between Ozpin & Salem, and how far it has come to the point where the World is mostly tailored made to serve Ozpin's goal of defeating Salem makes me take a step back and sorta ponder on the series as a whole: Kids (teenagers) fighting abominations born from begative emotions... Maidens given special powers to combat a (for the most part) secret threat... relics gifted from the gods to be safeguarded to not fall in the wrong hands... Makes me think of the lyrics for the song "Great War" by Sabaton: "Where is this greatness I've been told? " "This is the lies that we been sold " "Is this a worthy sacrifice?" I cant exaclty pinpoint why I think about this part of the lirics when I watch this video, but it pops into my head every time I think about all of it and the "question of choice"...
![F.HERO Ft. JSPKK x ลำไย ไหทองคำ x M-PEE - ไม่สนิทบิดหมด (Thai Riders Anthem) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kPJZ0UihBfk/mqdefault.jpg)
Pyrrha was my favorite character and it's sad that she's gone. To be honest, she didn't have a choice because someone as selfless and compassionate as her would always accept an opportunity to save the world. It still doesn't make her death any less painful.
RIP PYRRHA NIKOS 2016
So true and she was used bc of her beliefs. Ozpin got her as an easy pick bc of her beliefs. If he picked someone else like maybe Yang, then it will truly be choice bc for example Yang would have a choice of saving the people or find her mom but still this wasn't a choice. It was an ultimatum.
Ozpin sucks!
Weird Tree - I don’t think that’s true that Pyrrha was forced into making a choice. What did you want Ozpin to do? Lie about how her choice would affect thousands of lives? What he was saying was truth-Withholding it wouldn’t be effective since it’s true that he does have a motive. But if he really didn’t want her to have a choice he could’ve just shoved her into the machine anyways despite whatever choice she wanted to make. He had two other huntsman at his side. He let her know what was at stake. In fact, I bet that if she had decided not to do it and later found out the misery that came from it, she would’ve regretted her choice. Her character formed her choice. Ozpin had no say in her character development. She was who she was and made her decision because of it.
I believe that a person always has a choice. They might not like their choices. Their choices might not favor them, but they always have a choice.
Pyrrha was selfless, but she still could’ve chosen self-preservation. Just because Ozpin wanted her to sacrifice herself and it happened doesn’t mean he manipulated her into doing it. I would say it’s more likely that he was trying to persuade her into doing it. But even then, it wasn’t like he was listing several reasons why she should. Didn’t he remind her that she didn’t have to?
Honestly, I don't think any one without being as 'selfless and compassionate' would have been able to choose themselves. The stances they were in, the words used, it was all a manipulation of anyone to push to the desired goal. And I can tell you, there definitely looked to be a bit of an implied threat beyond just what was said. To me it looked like they were in the 'if you don't agree, we're going to hurt you' type of formation.
The only reason they had priya died was for Rwby and it was a bad choice
Same, even if I always watch it and cry, she was the best....
Oscar certainly never had a choice. He's stuck with Ozpin in head forever, so...
Gold Wade Does ozpin have controle over where he goes after his last bodies death? Did he have any controle over fighting cinder?
Maiden's powers have a trick to who they go to. Ozpin must have one too. I would even suggest it's the same but with bois.
He wasn't thinking of any guy in particular so, we have a bois lottery to see who gets to be with another soul in his body, young bois only. Oscar won
Ozpin says 'oh, I'll fade away' or some such, but I feel more like Oscar would be the one to fade.
Wait than who is Ozpin? I meant the before Ozpin is in Oscar's mind,who's the person that Ozpin was in his head??
@@nabrrlah Ozpin soul is inside Oscars.
Its 2018 and I still miss Pyrrha.
2024 Edit: The name has been fixed
Skoll Shorties.
SHE IS DEAD!!! ACCEPT IT!!!
Qrow Branwen oy some can't move on from missing someone while they see that person's final moments or even their corpse somthing like that will always plague ones mind even if it's only in the back of that person's mind.
Qrow Branwen We accepted it, but it still hurts.
NarakunoHana100. This is maybe gonna hurt, but this is the truth. Did you know that It is pyrrha's own fault that She died. I mean She didn't had to fight Cynder. Really She never had to. She could have Just leave and fight another day. But nooo. Lets Challenge a fucking Maiden. But then She took An Arrow in the heel. And DIED. Her own fault not mine or Ozpin.
+john mcmasters
It's true I still think about not being able to save my brother's life being there when he took his last breath.
Even if I was only 6, I still remember everything clearly. If only I had noticed sooner. All I knew is when he closed his eyes and his head dropped. My heart stopped, I screamed out for my mother. My six-year-old self-knew that he wasn't just sleeping. I remember sitting in the living room of my aunt's place and getting the news that he had died. My other siblings cried. I didn't I was still in shock. Even at the funeral, I sat there quietly. Still feeling that it couldn't be true.
Wow, your comment brought up old memories. I occasionally think about him when I'm alone.
You're right though.
Choice? Destiny? Neither of those mean a damn thing if someone else is making them for you.
Daffyhat exactly, and that’s why things ended the way they did.
I made a choice to become a bird. Its not a curse. But a blessing. I can change into a crow whenever the fuck i want!!!
Somethimes there is a choice. And you guys all sound like my sister.
Qrow, I said choice is pointless if someone else decides it for you. You made the conscious choice to get bird powers and it helped, yes. However, you didn't choose to have a Semblance that hurts everyone around you, ally or foe.
Daffyhat. I suppose that's true. But did Ozpin gave me that Semblance. Nope. The universe did. And there is nothing wrong with that. Because i accepted who and what iam. And
please Just stop spreading lies about Ozpin beeing Evil. Hé is the only person that is actully fighting Salum. Raven abandonned her duties. And Iron Wood is Just going Rogue. And that Will be his downfall. The only other person that is still Truely fighting Salum. Is the Headmaster of Vacuo. You know why. Because the great war brought Vale and Vacuo Together. So that means that Vacuo Will listen when the story finally brings us there.
Oh and when we we ASKED!!! Pyrrha to become the new Fall Maiden. We where desperate. I mean we could have just waited until the festival was over. WE COULD. but we didn't. Yes She died. But is was foolish of her to face Cynder in the first Place. Her death was her own fault. Seriously She could have just run away and fight another day. She could have joined us. But no She Just wanted to be the hero. IT was Just Stupid to fight a Maiden.
Then tell me @Daffyhat - when did someone else made a decision for another person (parents for their childs, enemies who're forcing a fight and Oscar excluded)?
Pyrrha had a choice. She could have said no. We're kind of the situation like she had done so. Convincing her with a good reason not to refuse doesn't remove the option.
Crow and Raven had the choice to get their powers, but with conditions.
Both even knew what they're up against and accepted.
Raven didn't hold on her part on the condition, but even so, Ozpin didn't really try to chase her for it.
Yes, people in rwby didn't choose their semblence. Did anyone say they could choose it? For example you can't choose your gender. Pretty much the same in rwby.
*Do you believe in destiny?*
Spencyn I don't feel so good
As Hellboy once said: The destiny is overrated
No but i believe in fate. ( super cool line made by myself) XD
Spencyn Destiny is something you create yourself
never did like the idea of fate or destiny
I used to know a girl who asked someone if they believed in destiny ...
SHE IS DEAD!!! ACCEPT IT!!!
Qrow Branwen who are you talking about?
Your "friend" summer Rose?
tranquillity. Yes She is dead. And iam still sad about it. But i accepted it. Life Goes on. Dont look back. Lets Just live!!!
Qrow Branwen I guess you're right... I guess you're right...
I don't believe in destiny. I believe in potential and choices. Some people have the potential to cause a great change, for any number of reasons, but in the end none of that matters unless they choose to act on that potential.
Really these "choices" are more like Ultimatums, like you said in this video. Do this thing or else. For any of these people they could have gone one of 3 ways, either run away from Ozpin and Salem and just try to live your life like Raven did, follow Ozpin like Qrow did, or follow Salem like Cinder or Lionheart did.
Brandon Dodge, Japanese Web Novels would have people with cheats who can choose the first decision and live a long time safely (or screw up the whole world) but... even with semblances and possible altruism beyond race; the whole war against grimm and the dispute among kingdoms are making it difficult for the people of Remnant to live a happy life...
in this case it's hard to "pretend" to serve either side since your either in or out of their fight, and going traitor to one...well saw how that went.
Benjamin Bierley, How about ordering a battle maniac to be a spy? That way, he gets to fight your side while pretending to be the opposite side.
Brandon Dodge or fight on your own and solve the problem your own way.
@@MWGhost-nd2rt
That was Ravens choice. So, it's still down to four. I buy the fourth, darkest option being death.
Despite the many flaws in the show, the fact that it can spawn such in-depth discussion and debate is what makes it so fun. I have a question that if anyone can answer would be great because its bothered me a while. When Penny speaks to Ruby, she mentions that one day it'll be her job to save the world (paraphrasing) so does that mean she was originally to be the sacrifice for Amber - Amber's aura/soul would be transferred into Penny?
But perhaps on realizing the threat being IN Beacon, and Penny not seeming to be ready, Ozpin was forced with the idea of choosing a student to be sacrificed instead and his 'choice' either use Penny who seems more interested in just normal girl things, has a childish personality and well, keeps taking off to explore lol OR a student that is top of class, in combat and has a pure sense of justice that wouldn't waver? He gives her until the end of the tournament only because they feel there isn't a lot of time - I'm surprised they gave her that much frankly. Anyone can truly want to protect and save others but if the cost is your very life and the result is a hazy 50% success rate - if even that much... saying no wouldn't be a surprise. It's not a fair choice sure, but its a choice. I would even say the pressure from the council that Ozpin in previous life possibly set up as King (Clarification please) were also urging him to do something as well as Ironwood. He himself, in turn, had a lose-lose choice to make as well.
As for a whole, I would prefer if Ozpin were truly untrustworthy be it he's good at the end or bad. But I wonder how much of it is story related or just a means to make him look cool. None of the RT staff from day one were professional story-tellers so I always struggle with the debate of is Ozpin hiding something or is he written to be that way just for effect? I do think there's more to Team STRQ's fall out and separation. And indeed, these students training against fellow huntsman - I imagine for the sole purpose to harden and prepare them for possible encounters with followers of Salem. Not telling them is kinda screwed up, how many of Qrow's friends had no idea who Salem was and facing off against Hazel and Tyrian and all the Grimm no doubt at once? Knowing may have changed outcomes. Also, I know it's still young but aren't these Academies like colleges? Aren't the students like 17 years old? So they aren't exactly children anymore - aside from exceptions like Ruby BUT I imagine Tai signed the permission slip and it was okay by him.
Plus the academies aren't even where they start training to fight. They come from middle schools that are having them design weapons and utilizing them. So aren't they the ones that are training children and preparing them for battles? I think the idea of these schools having kids in the battlefield/woods fighting Grimm aren't due to the school. I think kids were always fighting alongside family and huntsmen - the difference being the schools and main cities offer a more refined streamlined style of training while being safe. Kids fighting but having properly studied and taught by pros before them.There's more I'm sure.
And I have questions littered throughout so would like some answers if there exist any. Is Ozpin trustworthy, like I said I would want to see there be secrets he hasn't told. But I fear it may be more for effect than actual revelation-like stuff.
Although He did find the idea of turning people into birds hilarious. Whether it was their choice or not - had the transfer of souls taken place and Pyrrha died and Amber took over, would he down the road have found the idea hilarious as well? "Sounds ridiculous when said aloud" and he laughs. I'm sure the bird-transforming wasn't on a whim, they needed it in the moment pretty bad BUT he finds it pretty funny now. So his moral compass seems a bit... well I guess that's assuming my moral compass is right lol. A matter of opinion.But that's just some of the thoughts I had on it. I can't think of anything at the moment.
Tammi M Penny was a prototype since aura transplanting is very recent. In fact, giving Penny the Maiden Powers makes more sense than Pyrrha due to how Penny is technically a soldier and not a Huntress.
It's likely due to the fact Penny was a prototype that she was too risky to be given Maiden powers
Cool theory and technically any show can be a foundation for in-depth discussion even Spongebob. Also, I'm sure an immortal's moral compass wi mostly be super subjective especially in the case of Ozpin.
That would explain why she was built as close to a young woman as Ironwood could probably manage. But she still is a machine. I think it wouldn't work (plus that would be a pretty message to send to the audience: those emancipated girls with their useless free will and own decisions, we should just replace them with machines, so the work that their male owner (Ironwood) wants to be down, can be fulfilled more effectively (pretty messed up if you ask me 🤷♀️))
Thanks for the responses guys! That's true about anything can have an I-depth discussion lol! Ozpin didn't know about Penny being a robot. I think Ironwood's plan was to put this robot girl (with a soul) into the tournament to best everyone, then turn to Ozpin and say Penny is far superior and should become the maiden. He himself is half metal and probably sees its a much safer and better alternative than killing a young human girl.
I had also questioned whether he was wanting Penny to take over his own Kingdom's maiden as a backup and tested her strength against the other kingdoms' huntsmen (kinda cheating and screwed up so Ironwood isn't above this type of underhand). I had also the head canon that the Penny's aura/soul was from a scientist's daughter that had a failing body - so with Ironwood's help (seeing as he lost most of his body and replaced it with metal parts) built a replica robot of what daughter looked like and transerred her mind and soul to it. She may have lost her memory in the transfer but still retains an innocent young girl personality. (Though this is 100%head canon and theory -I have nothing to prove it lol.)
Also, if anyone can answer me on this because I've been bothered by it since it was brought back up in Vol. 4 and then the lingo changed in Vol. 5. Back when Pyrrha is offered this 'choice', she is told that the powers (maiden) are transferred to the person in the current maiden's thoughts last. If it's a female it'll move to her, if it's a male it 'resets' or randomizes and then they have to search all over for this person. And it was reiterated 'the one in their last thoughts' typically the attacker if killed.
So set in stone. Got it. In vol. 4 Qrow tells them about the maidens. Ren says "So these maiden's when one of them dies the power transfers to someone, a female, that they care about."
Qrow corrects him "Whoever was in their thoughts last. Important distinction."
But fast forward to vol 5, we don't hear Ozpin and Qrow tell Yang and Weiss everything BUT when Yang is confronting her mom in the Vault, she says "She (referring to original Spring) must've trusted you a lot." --- Never understood this because, if they told Yang and Weiss the same thing, the maiden didn't need to trust Raven at all. A few moments earlier, Cinder implies the same thing "She must've trusted you a great deal"
Why? She could've run up on the maiden and killed her (just like Cinder did to Amber) and Raven in last thoughts as the attacker, received the powers. I will say that I believe, much like Vernal, Spring trusted and was very loyal to the tribe and to Raven and when she realized she just wasn't strong enough, conceded that the 'BEST THING FOR THE TRIBE" would be for her to die and the powers to carry on to Raven the strongest in the tribe and Leader. That's also a head canon with nary a shred of evidence.
But my issue is the whole switch from vol 4 and into vol 5 with this odd change in a once adamantly stated condition/rule of the powers transferring. Did they not tell Weiss and Yang the truth? Does Cinder not know how it works either? OR are the guys at RT/CRWBY doing away with that rule and changing it to 'the last person in the maiden's thoughts that they cared about?' and if so, why? Is it so Raven doesn't receive the powers from Cinder?
I don't think Raven can have the powers because Qrow says in response to Nora (vol 4) they may have mentioned it in vol 3 to Pyrrha but not sure, that there are ALWAYS 4 maidens. So I don't think Raven could get the powers - not naturally. Cinder maybe since she was acquiring them unnaturally so she may have been able to syphon it and hold 2. I dunno. It may be nothing I just don't get why two people on different teams are insinuating the only way Raven could've gotten those powers was because Spring 'trusted and cared about her (Raven) a lot'.
Tammi M Your right, this "spring trusted you" is pretty confusing. I always just combined it with the fact that Qrow was sure that Raven had the Spring maiden into the conclusion, that it was a semi-secret that Raven had allied with Spring to hide from and defend themselves against Salem (and probably also Ozpin). So Spring must have trusted Raven because they were a team.
And then Raven betrayed that trust. For what reason I don't know 🤔
I think the reason Ozpin trains children/teenagers to fight his war is like why Halsey chose children for the Spartan 2 program, because they are easier to shape and mold into what you want and need. It’s easier to give children/teenagers with no real knowledge of the real world the respective of ‘you fight against evil because you are good’. An adult with experience in life would tell you not everything is black and white but a child doesn’t have that experience, to a child it’s easier for them to understand if you label one thing good and another thing bad, a child doesn’t care about the grey area between those two sides because why would they? Ozpin likely knows this so can project the image of good vs bad for children because they will simply accept it over and adult who has the increased chance of looking between the lines and questioning everything. But that’s just my take.
Yeah. Basically a Spartan 2 situation but thankfully instead of 5-6 year olds it’s approx 17 year olds with a few younger exceptions such as Ruby at 15yo.
I imagine that using children was a consequence of a larger issue. When the schools were founded they were an attempt to quickly revive a damaged world. To revitalize the world so that it may rise higher. It was Ozpins folly to not see the long-term ramifications of said goal.
@@calebblaha7854 ah.
Bare in mind that the tournament ended EARLY due to Cinder's plan so this choice she made was rushed and pushed further ahead. Also when Ozpin said "I need to hear you say it" pushed this idea of Ozpin trying to push himself to justify the idea of a choice
No, I believe there wasn't a choice from the start. And it makes me see a bit of what Raven was getting at.
Pyrrah I feel Ozpin just used her sense justice to protect people and painted it as her "Choice"
Same with Oscar, I feel that was more manipulation under the disguise of "this is your choice" when Oscar rarely has much a choice on Ozpin even taking over his body.
It just makes me trust him even less when he takes stuff like that away under a certain narrative.
Miu Chibiruma so he appealed to their desires and made a convincing A or B path they could follow
Xros Media YT except option A was made to sound more appealing to everything that person stands for, while B was told to sound like some horrible act that person would never do.
Miu Chibiruma and in Raven's case he paints dissenters in a negative light so as to discourage those who learn the truth about the world from defecting and possibly blowing the lid off of their secret society, b/c they're privy to knowledge not many in their world r aware of.
No wonder ppl like Yang r suspicious of him now. Groupthink is dangerous to begin with and the illusion of choice may come back to bite Ozpin in the rear yet AGAIN if Ruby gets captured and receives an extreme makeover by team WTCH.
Miu Chibiruma same goes for Ruby, not only would running from this fight go against what she believes in, but Salem is interested in her, so she has to fight. And Ruby's friends aren't gonna abandon her, so they have to fight as well.
Blake Gerber that might be true now. But what if Ruby gets captured by team WTCH? Then what? Like Summer before her, Ruby is the glue holding this group together and is Oz's WMD. If that weapon is tampered with (she loses one of her silver eyes) and she becomes mentally shattered from the trauma, that just might be where the real division of the group starts, b/c they won't know how to handle that.
Honestly, I believe it is a mix. Yes, Pyrrah did have a choice. Yes, we all knew what she was going to pick because that is part of her character and belief. But...it was still her choice. Let's say she said no...I do not believe that Ozpin and the others would knock her out and force her to do that...yet they did use the knowledge of how she behaves to ask her a question she wouldn't say no to. In the end, it was Pyrrah who made the call to accept the powers.
The thing is while Ozpin has had key moments where he has shown to be suspicious I just can't hate him for his choices. His just paying for the mistake he made and is still making, that he is struggling to convince himself is the right thing to do. He's getting cracks in his ideals. Salem has brought out a hammer. But while yes I do believe he hasn't been completely honest with everyone around him. I can see why.
1. His been around for thousands of years and this is probably not his first plan or attempt to finish the mission he has been given since his "failure" to stop Salem before she went balistic with wanting all of Humanity to die. I'm sure he has tried a million different ways. Especially when you recall he let it slip to Ruby. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman, and child on this planet." He sounded so sad when he said it. Like he was thinking back to all his past failures. And maybe friends he trusted that either betrayed him along the way, or died. He's afraid to get close to others now. Because I feel like especially in his early years. He let people in. People knew. But something drastic happened thousands of years ago. And by the time he was the King of Vale something changed in him.
2. Remember how as the king of Vale. He tried to stall the war. He never wanted it to happen. The WoR states. "The king of Vale did all he could to prevent violence and calm his people." Claiming that they should try to peacefully co-exist with the other Mistral settlers. But a huge statement still bothers me. When Qrow says. "To this day no one knows who shot first." Now it could be a simple statement. But something seems off. I think Salem caused it to happen. Now this is just my observations and theories here I may be wrong. But I think that 80 years ago. Ozpin had given up again (by again I mean in the Four Maidens WoR you see the Wizard living alone, defeated and bitter at the world. Salem had beaten him that first time and he gave up after being cursed and living for centuries watching the world around him without acting) and was just trying to preserve human lives by the time he became king. Something about the war changed him. He doesn't try to get attached anymore. He still loves humanity but with all he's seen he can cloud his judgment with the hope that he can beat Salem this time.
But this is unhealthy and if he doesn't really start letting people in again he will cause his own plan to fail.
So to answer your question I would say both. But when Ozpin makes those choices he knows deep down he's manipulating everyone. But he's so far gone in trying to stop Salem at all cost and also hating himself. I feel subconsciously he wants to be mistrusted. He wants to be seen as this mystery that can't be reached. He's put up walls around his heart... and is trying to just use his mind and morals alone without giving too much into his empathy for others.
Sorry about the long post I just find this topic and Ozpin very interesting.
I've always thought something along these lines, since as you said, Ozpin has lived a really long time and after that long, he would've made and lost thousands of friends. They wouldn't even need to have necessarily betrayed him for him to close himself off(although, statistically, at least a few of them must have), they'd just have to die naturally or in battle. Ozpin had lived knowing any friend he makes, he will outlive. Any person he meets, he will outlive. He's probably just numbed himself to it all just to keep his sanity and keep actually caring about humanity as a whole. Because of this, he probably isn't as concerned about the individuals and can justify sacrificing some people individually for humanity as a whole. Lying to people to get them to do what he wants is probably even easier for him, since in that case they're not even dying for humanity, just being deceived for it.
FINALLY! Another person who gets it! >.
Secrets are all well and good, but when they place a life in danger, a life that a headmaster is wholly responsible for, secrets become meaningless.
Ozpin's problem is his secrecy. Salem cannot surivive the cold light of Day if People knew about Ozpin she couldn't plan her attacks. but she relys on Ozpins guilt and fear about people learning about what he has done to control him and keep him from telling about him.
Let's try an experiment. Next time Ozpin or someone like him says it would cause a panic, think of them saying National Security instead. Now think of all of the horrible things that have been done in the name of national security.
Or could have been done.
Pyrrha probably would've had more time to think about the situation if not for Cinder prematurely ending the Vital Festival by releasing grimm into Vale and Beacon along with the White Fang invading.
yes, but the decision was a forgone conclusion. it would have ended with pyrrha accepting ether way, the time was only really given to make her believe that she was given a choice in the matter.
Soarel Still the aren is still covered in Grim and Beacon is apart of Vale.
So it was not cleared up and most likely no one can go home.
I don't think Ironwood was in the last episode.
Still someone did say that there was a safe zone in Vale. Still who know's how long that will last for and all those grim. Even if their at the school doesn't mean more will show up.
They were already into the 1v1 rounds of the tournament. Assuming all matches take the same period of time there were 7 rounds left to decide a winner, but 24 had already taken place to get there. This ultimatum was given 3/4ths of the way through the tournament, which presumably spans the length of the festival.
As far a we know. Salem ordered more Grimm to Vale to keep searching for Beacon's Relic.
When considering the choice presented to Pyrrha, you have to consider why she was chosen to be the next Fall Maiden. She was chosen not only for her skill and ability as a huntress, but because of her nature as a person. One of the first things we see her do, outside of her battle prowess, is befriend and help a bumbling idiot in Jaune Arc. With so many other people who are innately cooler and more advantageous picks, she chooses the least likely person. Seeing the potential in him, before ultimately falling in love with him. Her first choice that we see her make is team up with someone who would presumably hold her back.
She continues this trend throughout her time on the show. And Ozpin and Goodwitch observe as much. This makes her candidacy for the Fall Maiden’s power ideal. She displayed a character that would consistently champion the common folk over fame or riches, despite the fact that she was already famous herself. She saw the worth in all people.
This is why Ozpin and gang chose her. This is why she was given this overwhelming decision that would ultimately destroy her in either outcome. Does she have a choice? Absolutely. She could have said no.
But what would’ve happened had she said no? If she had chosen not to take the Fall Maiden’s power, Cinder would have gained it anyway. Pyrrha’s rejection of the power would have driven her face off with Cinder out of guilt, and we would arrive at the same conclusion. But rejecting the responsibility of that power would betray Pyrrha’s character.
The death of Pyrrha in the story is a great, and heartbreaking, loss. But in defense of Ozpin, if you’re going to have someone make a choice with such high stakes, you’re going to have to hedge your bets and pick the most capable and likely candidate to say yes.
I believe only one character has a choice ... Ruby Rose. And I don't mean just because she is the "main character" but because she seems to hold some unknown power. Ozpin seems almost afraid of the power that Ruby holds with her silver eyes, pursuing her to be on his side even to the point of having her enter his academy 2 years early. (Talk about child soldiers). He then made her the leader of a team and seems to treat her specially.
Boomie Boehme It could be that, just like the maiden powers, ozpins magic makes him vulnerable to the silver eyes. It would also explain why ozpin gave team STRQ the same kind of special treatment, with summer being on the team and all.
mind you Summer wasnt just on the team, remember the way teams are set up the leader of the team has the first letter of their name start the teams name, (Rwby) Ruby Rose, (Jnpr) Jaune arc, (Strq) Summer Rose. The only other person we've been somewhat introduced to with silver eyes, was also the team leader of her team, wonder why ozpin needs the silver eyes so much.
JemStoneNetworkProductions
But why Jaune? What was so special about him Ozpin blindly allowed him into the school, knowing he had fake transcripts! He didn't have that powerful semblance at the time so it wasn't that. What!?
Well, that's not true exactly, Jaune has always had it, he simply wasn't able to access it, and the stress and traumatic experience of him believing he would lose Weiss the same way he lost Pyrrha finally caused it to come out, why he chose Jaune? not sure. It could be that while he is the weakest fighting wise, he has proven he can be a very good leader push comes to shove, it could also be because Jaune is the weakest of them he chose him, to be leader you have no choice but to become stronger, they talk about that a bit in season two? where they remind him that he's their leader and he can't give up. Ozpin has done everything for a reason, he had to know Jaune didn't belong there, so there's something about him Ozpin felt was worth having at the school, for all we know Ozpin could be the reason Jaune was able to "get his hands on" the fake docs in the first place, doesnt seem like a thing that happens often at Beacon.
That's what I feel though, I truly believe that none of the teams ended up together by chance, Ozpin planned it all, look at the simularies between team STRQ and team RWBY, he was remaking team STRQ the best that he could, who knows what he had planned orginaly for team JNPR before Beacon fell.
Boomie Boehme then he'll probably sent her off a mission, and make her ded like sum sum
When Ozpin is involved, there is no choice.
He's lived for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. He knows how to read people. He knows what they want to see and hear, and he knows what to do and say in order to get others to do what he wants.
He did it every day with the students (all his speeches about "fighting the good fight").
He did it with Phyra (it's not a choice if you know they're going to say "yes").
He did it with Oscar (appealing to his good nature and "desire for adventure").
He's doing it with Team RNJR, Weisse and Yang.
I don’t trust Ozpin at all
Kameronia 6. Traitor!!!!
same for me .. sorry no offense Qrow ...
Iko Artiaga. Nahh i Don even care what you guys say about Ozpin. So long you dont say shit about me!!!
Otherwise there Will be consequences.
well just like other people say if your nice to others they will be nicer to you ...
No Qrow, we all love you
While I agree 100% with the pyrrha not having a choice, I disagree with a lot of the other opinions you present.
You say that "They aren't the most capable fighters, but they don't need to be. They just need to be able to kill grimm". Isn't that the entire thing their tribe is trying to avoid? If I remember correctly, that's a bandit tribe that raids and scavenges for supplies, constantly moving to avoid the grimm they draw in their wake. So them being average fighters isn't because they only need to fight grimm, it's because they actively avoid the grimm. This is coupled with the fact that we don't know their actual fighting strength, sure the regular lackies were easily taken out, but this is where Qrow and Raven grew up, and despite them being some of the better (possibly best) fighters before going to Beacon, I'd find it surprising if there was no one else closer to their level in the tribe.
You present the academies as entirely designed and orchestrated by Ozpin for his benefits. You also say that Ozpin sends children to fight for him, and generally I just don't think these statements are true. Are they training children to fight? Definitely - under the constant eye of teachers and skilled huntsmen. Is Ozpin sending children out to fight against Salem's massive army without their knowledge and is this all designed directly for Ozpin's benefit in his war against Salem? Debatable, and here's why I think no:
While it is true that they are training children to fight against Grimm, I think it unlikely that they are actually sending these children to do any proper work. They are training them so that when they are adults and fully trained, they can fight Grimm. This is arguably semantics, but when you keep stressing the "children" part in your argument, I think it acceptable to address it even if it is semantics.
"But the children do fight grimm!" - yes, they do. But these generally are fairly weak Grimm and the kids have either gone off on their own or are under supervision, except for the (usually) very rare case where something major happens and the need every ounce of fighting force they can muster. While these 'very rare' cases have happened quite a few times in RWBY so far, overall, over the 80 or so years that huntsman academies have been around, this would have been exceptionally rare, as evidenced by the panic and chaos they cause.
Going onto the knowledge part: I don't think they need to be told about Salem, nor should they expect to have been told about Salem until something major happens/they need to do something that requires them to know. Salem's 'army' are Grimm, and this is what they have signed up to fight, so are they really being 'used' to fight something they didn't sign up for? No. Are they fighting on a scale they didn't understand? Sometimes - except for certain trusted huntsmen, most are not doing much against Salem directly, they are doing exactly what they signed up for, dealing with Grimm on a day to day level, clearing out and maintaining the safety of areas inhabited (or close to) humans. Of course that has changed recently with Salem going on the offensive, however I still feel like just straight up telling all student huntsmen (or everyone) would be a bad idea.
The Grimm feed off fear, hatred uncertainty, etc, so to tell everyone about Salem, you'd effectively be making Salem stronger, as who wouldn't get frightened when learning that the nameless beasts which have preyed on humanity actually have an evil, human hating mastermind behind them. Personally I'd be thinking "shit that must mean there's even stronger Grimm out there, how can we ever win". This might also lead to fewer people signing up to be huntsmen as they'd feel they'd be putting themselves at a much greater danger than they currently do, which in turn would make it harder to protect humanity from Grimm, even just your average ones. (Admittedly this whole point is my weakest)
Lastly: The Academies. While they were only founded ~80 years ago, I firmly believe that similar institutions must have existed in the past. Why? Because it doesn't make sense for them not to have existed before. The very fact that there was a large war between civilisations so far away shows that each of them must have had civilisation and military competent enough to a) support each other without collapsing (military without civilisation would run out resources quickly, civilisation without military would not have survived such a war), b) easily get to other, much more dangerous parts of the world without endangering the people left behind due to fewer defences from Grimm, and c) cope with the losses from that war, both in a sustainable systems sense and an attracting Grimm sense.
For civilisations capable of doing this (in a world as hostile as this) they would undoubtedly be training soldiers in schools/academies (Mantle definitely was, Qrow mentions it in the WoR:Atlas), and likewise if you're doing that, you're also sending other people to 'regular' schools/academies as they don't need to know how to fight, but instead help maintain the civilisation and improve it. You might ask "but the academy might have formed after the start of the war, as the war increased demand for especially good fighters", and yes, it might have, but I find this unlikely, as when the sole reason is to train people to send them to war as fast as possible and as cheaply as possible, they wouldn't make a full academy but a camp which churns through people only teaching them the basics, which wouldn't really work in this world as far as I can see.
So what does this mean for Ozpin founding the Academies? Well the likelihood is that there already were many of these, but they would have been strongly linked to the kingdom they were in and possibly funnelling students straight to their kingdom's military. So from a "let's have peace" perspective, you'd want to try and abolish these as they directly contribute to each kingdom's ability to break the piece and restart the war - however you can't do that in this world due to Grimm, so you have to change what is there instead, ie concentrate the high level fighting academies into fewer, more easily monitored academies. While there may now be fewer highly trained combatants overall, this coupled with the Vytal Festival and the freedom for these people to move kingdom as they please, you have mostly ensured that they will not aid in a war between other countries*. The low amount of students trained also serves as a way to ensure that only the best combatants make it to a stage where they are fighting actual Grimm, keeping the casualties down (as long as there are enough, which is arguable), and allows them to receive the best education they can as the best teachers are concentrated in a single place.
So to sum that up, it makes sense from both a peace keeping and a training point view to form the Huntsmen Academies. It just happens to coincide with Ozpin's plans for keeping the artifacts, or who knows, it could easily have been only after the decision to make the Academies that Ozpin realised that these could serve as more than just academies, but it doesn't matter either way as their founding is a good idea, regardless of other intentions.
And to bring this all together: While Pyrrha and Oscar definitely didn't/don't have a choice in what they did/are doing, I'd say that all the other huntsmen do, they're fighting Grimm & protecting people and that's what they signed up to do, and if they don't like how they now have to suddenly fight against an organised Grimm then they can always run away, there's still nothing forcing them to fight or to follow Ozpin.
(*yes I know that Atlas is still directly funnelling students to their military, but that's more an issue of the rest of the world not keeping the management there as accountable for the path the students take as they should.)
Wow this was way longer than I intended, I have trouble concisely getting words from head to page, so sorry if it's rambling/hard to understand the point I'm trying to make at times. Also I'm not exactly 100% certain on all the RWBY lore, and I didn't do that much research for things I talked about, so please tell me if I've got some things wrong! Oh well, we'll find out what's actually going on at some point .
Finally someone I can agree with. sorry to say but I’ll be using some of your points in an RWBY argument that I know will come up in the future
Bravo. This is a much better and thorough version of the comment I left.
You got everything pretty much right ^^
You should post this in a RWBY blog!
Thats the thing. The students do not know the risk. As far as theyre aware, theyre just fighting Grimm, not an intelligent force. Thats manipulation at its basest. Also, the fact that Oz has had access to relics for CENTURIES and he did nothing. He let Salem grow in power. How can someone who literally shaped society to his liking, not be aware of high profile characters defecting? Oz also has been alive at the faunus wars. Where was he? How come someone who shaped society was not able to make equality for faunus? He has been in positions of power for millenia, how is he not able to do it?
Pyrrha was so compassionate and selfless I miss her so much...
I actually don’t believe that inheritance of maiden powers would mean Pyhrra would die and amber would take over. When we think about it, Cinder took half of the maidens power and thus part of her aura right? But amber hasn’t been shown to have any influence over her. Also I completely disagree with the choice aspect. While I don’t trust Oz, however in the scene with Jaune and Qrow, I found myself realizing that while her options were lose-lose, she had the options to choose how she lost. Life isn’t fair. She was the only choice for the fall maiden powers. The only other possible candidates that might be able to inherit it and possibly effectively use it against Cinder would’ve been either Yang, Velvet and possibly Penny. And possibly Glynda if she isn’t one already or young enough to inherit it. Oz has framed the world in a way that he has set the pieces on the board and they have fight. That choice has been taken from them, however how, when and why they fight are all choices they must make and I believe those are the most important.
Silva well really the peices of the world have already been set even if oz and salem weren't there anymore the Grimm might still be anyway because we don't know how thier spawn pools work and salem doesn't control the action of every Grimm so just taking the Grimm into account remnant is a world where it's either fight or eventually die so theres a necessity for a group of people to fight(hell even without the Grimm there are times in the real world where it's necessary) also people have been going on about child soldiers when the only reason things like that have been happening is because they either seek it out themselves or are right there when shit goes wrong and have to fight and you can't call the acadamies child soldier camps because they enroll 17 year olds one year younger than the legal drafting age in the real world at least for America( plus they aren't deployed for any big serious mission till four years later when they become huntsman at 21 years old) and even then you have programs that are meant to lead into a military career that start acceptance as early as 13 years old very simular to the prep acadamys like what ruby was in before getting accepted into becon 2 years early so there's that
Cinder took the powers directly, not Ambers aura. Transplanting her Aura was supposed to keep Amber alive because the Maiden Powers would automatically reunite with Cinder's, which we saw did when she kills Amber.
So yeah, Pyrrha would most likely have "died" with Amber filling in her skin. Maybe it would have been like Oscar where Amber and Pyrrha both exist rather than just Amber.
Champsr0ck2247 didn’t they state that they were transferring Ambers aura to Pyhrra as her powers were connected to Ambers aura? Thus it’s likely that even if Cinder directly took her power she’d be takin her aura as well as they are intertwined. That being said, if they aren’t connected then giving Pyrrha the aura wouldn’t also give her the power meaning it would’ve most likely just gone to Cinder anyway, and amber would then be transposed into Pyrrha’s body without her maiden powers.
What about older students like Coco or Velvet? They should be compatible and they are much more experienced.
@@Cooldude-ko7ps I mentioned Velvet already in my original comment. Coco got beaten by Emerald and had overal poor showings within the show. So the idea that she was a choice is quite literally only based in the thought that she has more experience and as I said Glynda is a much better option in that case. Or literally any adult huntress.
Sees Eruption Fang theory vid
Me: *instant like*
There is always a choice. For the huntsmen, they sign up knowing they might die, yes ospin didn't tell them exactly what they would be fighting, but they sign up knowing that the fight is real, that the danger is real. They sign up to protect the innocent at any cost, no matter the threat, it's the job they chose to do. And as for Pyrrha, the only way ospin could have stopped her from doing it was to never inform her in the first place, because as long as she knew that it was a possibility, Pyrrha would have gone through with it, no guilt trip required. But she was the best candidate, could have given the offer to someone else, but they would be faced with the same dilemma, and same moral struggle, no matter who you pick, so why not offer it to whose best suited for it? And that was Pyrrha. On the flip side, before Pyrrha had to make a choice ozpin had to choose, he could have let the maiden powers transfer to cinder when the current maiden died, but that would put thousands if not more at risk of harm, Ozpin had to make the same difficult choice Pyrrha did before he even offered it to her, the only difference is that by now Ozpin has had more experience in making and dealing with difficult choices than anyone. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman and child on this planet..."
You can actually say that Oscar didnt have a choice cos Ozpin as we know can control his body, and as time goes on, he'll be able to do it even more, so if it came to the point where Ozpin thought it was seriously important that Oscar goes but Oscar still refused, he might have taken control without his consent, been resented by Oscar but still wouldve fought in Haven
Also, maybe the headmaster in charge of the relic develops the characteristics of that relic cos Ozpin surrounds his nature of thinking around choice, he had the Choice Relic, Leonardo was giving information to Salem, he had the Knowledge Relic
Ship Master101
And Tin-man. Ironwood. Has the Relic of Creation. Penny. That is probably how they made her in the first place.
DivinePhoenix901 We dont actually know what Maiden is in which Kingdom yet, so we cant say that Winter will definitely be the Maiden for Atlas for Ironwood to take the role of Creation but it is a good thing you came up with though
Ship Master101
Well the Banner for Atlas is a torch, Torch equals lights. Light equals creation. So we know that kingdom could have the Relic of Creation. (This is mostly adapted from theories Via videos of TH-cam.) But if Winter is even there as of this moment...
Also, since I am on the topic of Relic of Creation i might as well clear out my head-canon. When we get the Relic of Creation we will learn what it does, it may create life or does something else creation wise. This will make Jaune interested in it, he still has guilt over Pyrrhas death. He will take the Relic and possibly recreate Pyrrha She might have her memories of the past maybe not. But what she will remember is that she was killed and start attacking everyone in a delusional state. They will calm her down or knock her out, but whatever they do Pyrrha will be upset she is alive. She died believing in what she fought for, now that she is alive she has lost her peace. She will be upset at Jaune over reviving her and leave the teams as they stared speechless at her walking off, Jaune will now feel even more guilty because he thought about himself rather than the being of Pyrrha thus creating an Arc for him.(As if we haven't had enough of Jaune getting devloped more than Ruby...)(Whether this happens or not I do not know, it is just my head-canon. Leave your opinion.)
DivinePhoenix901 I dont really think that the relic could be creation just because of the light thing really cos to me, light doesnt really rerpresent creation at all, more so hope and stuff so yeah. And about your head canon, having th Relic of Creation doesnt really mean that you can bring people back cos its not creating, like you said, in a way its REcreating, meaning making it AGAIN. However I do actually agree with whatnyou said about Pyrrhas reaction to being bought back, it makes sense that she would think that she got brought back to a world of darkness, Grimm and war when she was perfectly fine and at peace before.
Although this is your head canon so you can obviously feel free to go about this however you want to, Im just saying what I think about it
DivinePhoenix901 But a torch is also fire they are connected to the military both things are connected to destruction
What if Ozpin lied. His Cane is the Choice relic. He can cause others to choose what he wants. He can choose to tell them a lie, and have them choose to believe it. There's also the Chekov Gun from s1 Yang says, "He didn't seem all there" maybe because he knew none of them had their own choice? Just my theory.
Well, choices are an illusion in a way.
I define "choice" solely as "the act of making a decision".
And decisions are predetermined by your character/nature/trait/temper, your knowledge, and your environment.
Because that is what you use to choose.
Great video and this is interesting. I like all the theory.
It makes perfect sense.
The choice is made when you decide to become a huntsmen. In my opinion its like the military in real life. The main difference is that they have to make the choice sooner because its not just learning to use a firearm. Its learning an entire fighting style for a weapon and manipulating a magic force to enhance your abilities.
The choice is made early yes but once your in its not always clear what your fighting for. You fight for what you believe and until Ozpin proves that what he wants is misaligned with what you as the huntsman want. You will continue to fight
There is the choice to become a huntsmen, but once you are one, you are automatically part of Salem and Ozpin's war. By unknowingly becoming part of that conflict you lose your choice.
PS I love you content. It makes me rethink things from a different perspective.
Charles Hockenbury I suppose, but as a huntsmen who doesn't fight the Grim you are shunned
Charles Hockenbury don't worry about the long read, I've done the equivalent of a long essay question in the comments before.
Also, I appreciate you putting in your idea in response to mine
Charles Hockenbury I love over analyzing stuff with people too😅
Dashie Rainbow you know because of all this I wonder did raven not want yang to be a huntress?
Grey World I feel like Raven just stopped caring at a certain point because she was more concerned with her tribe than Yang
I believe there was a mix here, Ozpin designed the world as it was today in order to create the strongest option he felt possible to quell the grimm and fight salem, but he also never informed humanity of what the real threat was or gave them the opportunity to fight with a full hand in not telling them about magic. You cannot make a full decision without all the knowledge necessary, and Ozpin arranged things to destroy that possibility.
"I've made more mistakes than any man, woman or child on this planet..." Every hard decision these kids have had to make, Ozpin has had to make himself several times over, the difference is by now he has become so used to making and dealing with difficult choices.
I remember when I started watching RWBY, and I was like, “oh! Ozpin is like the kind, wise one who can do know wrong!” But then, so many things started happening. And now I can’t trust him. He’s manipulating people behind the veil of the “kind, wise one who can’t do no wrong” and I don’t like that. He’s deceiving all of us. Not just the characters, but the viewers. This show goes so much deeper than I though it would go.
Salem isn't *just* Ozpin's problem. Salem is humanity's problem. She wants to destroy humanity. It's debatable whether Ozpin is even technically human, so he many not even *need* to fight for humanity. He's not raising an army for his "agenda," he's teaching humanity to defend themselves against their mortal enemy, and it's definitely necessary. Do you really think a world where everyone lives like the Branwen Tribe is better than a world with Kingdoms protected by Huntsmen?
More to the point, I'd argue that every Huntsman and Huntress absolutely had a choice to be so. Nobody forced them to join the academies and become warriors. There are plenty of people in Remnant who *aren't* warriors, and nobody ever shames them for that. The life they choose has risks, but Remnant needs Huntsmen, it needs people to fight against Salem, because she threatens to destroy it all, and so I'd argue that people *should* choose to fight.
If anyone is taking away humanity's choice, it's not Ozpin. It's Salem. She's the reason the Huntsmen have to exist in the first place. She's forcing them to fight and die to protect their family and their people. All the more reason to join Ozpin, and fight.
Ozpin never was trustworthy, not after he started keeping secrets from Salem the first time he reincarnated. He could have easily avoided this by refusing to help the god of light after all.
There is a choice. It's just that our choices have consequences. The question is, are we willing to face the consequences of making the wrong choice?
Kind of reminds me how Ozpin structured the team composition method. It seems like you have a ridiculous amount of choice - like a Battle Royale - but secretly Ozpin knew how the teams would come together the whole time, and who would be leading them.
While I can certainly agree that Oscar never really had any choice, I think the question of choice as it relates to the students has another layer to it. There's another choice that each of the students made, a choice that was a prerequisite for all of the other choices discussed here: the choice to enroll at Beacon and become a huntsman/huntress in the first place. That was a choice that each of the students made of their own free will, a choice to take up a profession that entailed risking and possibly even sacrificing their lives to protect others.
Now, the natural counter-argument is how could these 17-year-olds (or 15) possibly make such a huge decision in an informed manner? However, keep in mind what we know about these characters. Out of the 8 members of RWBY and JNPR, Ruby, Yang, and Ren have all lost loved ones who were either huntsmen or the closest equivalent (you can also add Nora into this group, since she was present for the attack that killed Ren's family). These characters know from close personal experience what the cost of a career as a huntsman can be. Jaune has a family tradition of being huntsmen or warriors going back four generations, and so he probably knows more about that life than just the glamorous side of it (think about people who grow up with family members in the military). Blake may not have any direct experience with huntsmen that we know of, but certainly no one could say that she's naive or uninformed about the "real world". Likewise, even though Weiss' upbringing has been sheltered in some ways, she also shows that she understands quite a bit about the ugly side of the world beyond the mansion walls. The only one of the main 8 that we don't have as much background on is Pyrrha, but the other 7 all clearly have substantial context to understand the full implications of being a huntsman/huntress, and made a conscious and relatively informed decision to pursue that career anyway. Several scenes throughout the series (most notably in v2e10, Mountain Glen) emphasize that the main characters recognize the implications of that choice, and that they accept what they've chosen even though they don't have every detail worked out. Ruby's fangirl moment in the very first episode notwithstanding, the main characters don't seem to have any illusions about the career they've chosen to pursue.
Now, obviously that doesn't mean that there isn't any manipulation going on. The symbolism of that is plainly evident almost from the beginning, with the use of chess pieces as the "relics" they're assigned to retrieve in the Emerald Forest. So yes, the students are implicitly accepting their roles as pieces in a game played by Ozpin and Salem. However, while the students don't understand the details of that game at the time (and arguably still don't know all the details), it is important to remember that they did understand in general terms that they were entering a "game" that very well could have life-and-death consequences, and each of them freely chose to do so.
Your theories and reviews are awesome man. You not only point out pros and cons, but provide ideas for improvement, not a lot of people would go that extra mile, myself included. I only hope Miles and Karry watch some of your stuff, because if they did, volume 6 might not turn out like volume 5 did.
The thing is, even though I agree with all this and think that very few characters in this story ever had a meaningful choice, I can't really say that what Ozpin is doing is wrong. Everything he does, he does to protect man/faunuskind and save lives. He uses the Huntsman Academies to create child soldiers because indoctrinating children with the ideals of selfless heroism at a young age is the most reliable way to create warriors who will consistently choose to fight against Salem's forces - which leads to them protecting the Kingdoms, and saving lives. He guilted Pyrrha into sacrificing her individual consciousness to become the Fall Maiden because it was the best way to ensure that she would say yes, and she was the best candidate - meaning that she could use those powers to fight the most effectively and save the most lives. He convinces Oscar to take on the life of a Huntsman, as well as conveniently failing to mention that he's effectively going to die when his consciousness fully integrates with Ozpin's, so that he can get the most possible use out of this new reincarnation - which he can use to counteract the turmoil that Salem has thrown the Kingdoms into, protect the relics, and save lives. Even if many of these characters are just Ozpin's chess pieces, he's undoubtedly using them for the greater good. But he really ought to shut up about how much of a choice he's giving people like Pyrrha. He's sacrificing their free will for the greater good, he should at least own up to it.
This is a pretty interesting video.
However, it makes me think that, the more dire the situation- the more a choice will tip the scale, the less of a true choice that the individual will be asked to make, and that's something you brought up on both sides of this.
Those that think they'll just be fighting Grimm have a more lax decision. There's no real pressure to be a hunter, since there are plenty of people who can do that job.
The people who know about Salem and all that, however, will feel obligated to help in this fight or live in utter fear because instead of strong beasts and maybe their homes, they would have to contend with a godlike being for the fate of their world.
Love the video :) but it's not an illusion of choice. It's just the hard choice that some characters were brave enough to make.
There are many people making a choice to stand with Ozpin and his shadiness or Salem and her destructiveness. Those who don't, like Raven, make a choice to only look after her own. Even at the cost of abandoning her husband, daughter, and brother.
--Leo Lionheart made a choice too and betrayed all of the huntsmen under him.
--Weiss and Winter leave their cushy lives as princesses to fight, while Whitley is fine with being at home and following Jaques. --Blake chooses to leave the white fang, she chooses to run away even when Yang needed her there.
--Ghira and Kali choose to be pacifists instead of violent like Adam and lose control of the organization they started.
--Sienna Khan refuses outside help, Adam does and kills her. Which Hazel didn't even want to happen, it was Adam's choice
--Yang chooses to leave her old personality behind when her eyes change color as she runs by mercury grabbing her prosthetic
--Ironwood decides to depose Ozpin and creates the scenario where all the Atlassian tech goes haywire
--Pyrrha makes the ultimate choice. She chose the world over herself and love. We all know because of that kiss. Furthermore, because you focused on Pyrrha I'll focus as well. She's based on Achilles. The man who chose to die in battle instead of living a long life, knowing full well that it would happen. Pyrrha was thrust in a very bad situation, but in actuality Cinder rescued her from that choice by shooting Amber and finishing the job. Pyrrha's REAL choice, which SHE made even though Ozpin told them to just run away and Jaune screamed NO DON'T DO THIS, was to go fight Cinder and die trying.
Lastly, and most disturbing, is Summer Roses's words to Ruby which talks about choice:
This bedtime story ends with misery ever after
The pages are torn, and there’s no final chapter
I didn’t have a choice, I did what I had to do;
I made a sacrifice, but forced a bigger sacrifice on you
I know you've lived a nightmare;
I caused you so much pain
But baby, please don’t do what I did;
I don’t want you to waste your life in vain
Summer had no choice, but she wants Ruby to choose freely. And Ruby decided that she'll go save the world.
It's still a choice, even if the alternative is a worse scenario. She could have asked if there was another candidate, or refused if only to gather support so they could hunt down the person who attacked Amber.
Simplistically, you could choose to jump in front of a train to save a doctor who could save hundreds of lives, and an honorable person like Pyrrha would do it in a heartbeat, but saying the person didn't have a choice because the alternative was watching the doctor die and potentially sacrificing other people's lives for your own is more of a question of morality than free will.
Choice: an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
Technically Pyrrah had a choice, no matter the stakes at hand.
You really painted a picture that this fight was originally a fight between Ospin and Salem and Ospin started training little kids to fight in his favor. Ok well is that a bad thing? I mean Salem had grim and Ospin was one man fighting a woman that literally hates life. Can you imagine a world run by Salem?? I don't blame Ospin. Honestly I think hes doing the right thing. Do all the kids hes training have a choice if they dont know fully what they are fighting? By definition Yes. Is there information that held back by Ospin in regards to Salem that could have changed the kids choice to be a student? Maybe.. But look at it this why. All the kids there are there to kick grim ass and save lives. But there are alot of students for sure that join the schools that don't really know the features of a warrior that make that person a defender of the inocent, so at the school they learn to fight, they learn selflessness for the week and strong and they learn to stand up for what is right. Ultimatly we can look at this liek the Spartan 2 program. If the kids wherent taken and trned into spartans then they would not have been able to save the universe. Now take the same concept and apply it here. Except here its not so corrupt and they are fighting for a very realavent cause.
ultimately yes there is a choice. regardless of ulterior motives and the illusion of choice you have to choose to either run and hide or stand your ground and fight even if just to prove this was your own choice. it's the same thing when you choose to sign up for actual military. you don't choose where you really go or who you may end up killing over the course of your career but you chose to walk the path of a soldier. humanity in general is always viewed as weak which is why you have public masses quick to blame someone when things go wrong.
bottom line yes, i do believe there is a choice. even if the choices were like pyrrha's case she still had to make a choice for herself since the illusion of choice is a gamble where unless ozpin has been using beacon academy's relic to influence choices then you have a valid argument.
Freddy Gutierrez watch this comment attract so many Ozpin haters
probably.
when you live for several thousand years you kind of get an understanding of people and who to ask in a dire situation. Like pyrrha ozpin knew shed make the right choice because of her sense of judgement. Ask anybody else and they wouldve outright said no. Its not they didnt have a choice, its the fact that ozpin choose people who would make the right ones
“Is it your own destiny or a destiny someone has forced upon you?”
- Iroh
There is always a choice. Whether or not you see it that way mostly depends on your morality.
If I tell her mother that she can either murder 30 people or let her child die did I give her a choice or did I give her something that I knew she would do because her instincts compel her to do something
No there isn’t. Not in RWBY anyway. We’re not talking about the real world. We’re talking about in the show and clearly none of the characters had a real choice in what they had to do. The show is set to progress in one way without any real deviances (Except for pandering in the latter seasons) but constantly gives off an illusion that the characters had a choice in the matter and “chose” to do what is perceived to be the right thing.
So when Ruby said "We didn't want to steal from you, but you gave us no choice!" you should disagree, then.
Of the three examples only Hansel had a real choice. Phyrra was lose lose, and Oscar will eventually merge with Ozpin who would leave the farm once that happened
This is why I was soo mad while watching Volume 3. It was soo stupid to dump all this responsibility on a student, a non Adult!! It's just not right. To see Pyrrha struggle because of that, it really pains me...
I agree. I think it was a mistake on RT’s part on killing Pyrrha off. I think what they should’ve done is keep her around and give out more character development for her and Jaune in their relationship with each other. I was mad that they didn’t even bother to expand their relationship. I think to me it was poor planning on Ozpin’s part on dumping all this responsibility on Pyrrha.
Theres always a choice. Whether you like the outcome of the choice or not is irrelevant. You can be 99.9% right about Pura doing the right thing but there still a 0.1% chance that you could be wrong.
For example choosing to save 1 million people over one person sounds logical, however in the Matrix Neo chose to save the love of his life if it meant possibly sacrificing all of Zion. Most people would frown upon that choice, but it was still a choice.
Everything in life is a choice. It’s all about personal preference and how you carry yourself as a human being.
Love your Theories.
Lunar Rose, more trust worthy than Salem
but is he more trust worthy
andrew gifford. Yes.
I hope that episode 3 of season 6 will answer some of these questions about Ozpin.
Once u decide to be a huntsman the option of choice is negated, simple
Except they can choose to quit being huntmen (raven), take a possibly permanent break due to life issues (Tai Yang), become mercenaries that hire themselves out instead of choosing to be soldiers for the kingdom that trained them, that sounds like a few options to me.
WhiskeyHound lmao fucking rekt
WhiskeyHound What do you want someone who is that broken fighting monsters that are attracted by depression that’s a horrible idea
If I remember right, when Cinder got Amber's power, Ozpin explicitly told Pyrrha to run and get Glynda, Ironwood, and Qrow...but Pyrrha didn't do this, she--for whatever reason--chose to go back and fight after Ozpin was slain and after Cinder pretty much rendered her agreement with him null-and-void. She could have escaped with her life and fought Cinder with her comrades another day, but she didn't.
Oscar's situation is a bit harder to judge. Would Ozpin have kept pestering him until he left the farm or would he have left to find another host? That's nether here nor there, at this point.
As for Gretchen...her big brother (presumably her only guardian) told her not to enroll at Beacon because "she was only a child, she wasn't ready", but she did it anyway. Unless Ozpin was controlling her mind or something, I'm convinced that it was her choice and her death is no one's fault but her own.
I have a Theory: What if Gretchen Rainart{Hazel's little sister} was only a 1st Year???
~~Back in V2, Team RWBY tried to take a Mission that was above their Year Grade. It was Ozpin that gave them the OK and told them to Listen to the Huntsman assigned to them. What if, There was No "Assigned Huntsman" for 1st Years back then? Ozpin purposefully did the same thing he did for Team RWBY with Gretchen's Team, but without the Extra Protection of a Huntsman...
Even if he would have send RWBY without a huntsmen and they've died:
they wanted to be there and they knew fully well, that there's a good chance to meet the White Fang.
Also: remember they thinking about "breaking the rules"?
You didn't really read the comment, Because it wasn't about Team RWBY.
~I was saying, What if Ozpin "Broke the Rules" for Gretchen's Team, like he did for Ruby's? However, since Gretchen was Killed, Going on a Mission she was never suppose to, Ozpin was blamed for this. To Increase Safety for 1st years{who are Under trained/Not as Experienced Children}, Ozpin{either forced by new Regulations or his own decision} began pairing them with Huntsman for their first mission. That way, If something were to happen to them, It's the Huntsman that would be taking the Blame/responsibility
You could just apply team RWBY 1:1 to them?
Your point was, that Gretchen's team - much like team RWBY - was sent to a mission she's not supposed to do.
I did rather just changed team RWBY in place, because we do have a full set of circumstances, while with team Gretchen, we do not have anything.
It's fun to see a video that echoes what I've been saying for months. My main problem is that it feels like RT doesn't fully understand what they've done. At this point, Ozpin has done far too many immoral and dishonest things to just be forgiven and still be seen as a "good person." As a result, the only satisfying way this can play out is that Ozpin gets called on his BS, whether he's a villain or just misguided, and Ruby and her friends forge their own path to protect the world and make it a better place. Unfortunately, RT seems to generally treat it like Ozpin deserves to hold the moral high ground. When Jaune calls out the ultimatum they gave Pyrrha for the dishonest abuse of her kind-hearted nature that it was and Qrow shuts him down, they just let him win the argument. It's the same story when Ozpin explains what he did to Raven and Qrow, minus the little promise for transparency Yang gets him to make, which he immediately breaks by not telling them about Hazel and anything else relevant that he knows about anyway. The worst instance (and worst moment from the whole show IMO) is definitely when he explained about Gretchen. It's a rushed little exposition dump that takes no more than 10 seconds and is coming from the most biased person possible, who has already been called out as a liar in front of Oscar, yet the kid trusts him on it completely and makes this ridiculous speech about how a girl he's never met or even heard of before now made a choice and how the guy who was in charge of preparing her to fight (remember she died while still in training) is not at all responsible for her dying while under his tutelage. He even adds that he too is making a big, important choice to stand and fight for a cause he's known about for like a month, having never fought before, and being talked into leaving his home without even letting his aunt know (and he honestly didn't have a choice to stay home anyway, even if you do count it when he's being steered towards a certain choice, because eventually Ozpin would just take over by force like he did when fighting Hazel). Despite how clearly wrong Oscar is to behave this way, this speech is presented as this triumphant moment of personal growth for Oscar, like it's something the audience is supposed to cheer him on for. That tells me that RT wants us to trust Ozpin, that they don't think they made him untrustworthy.
For Oscar and Pyrrha? no.
Ozpin likely can't control who's head he ends up in, he's like the male equivalent of the maidens XD
and Nikko's was pressured into doing it, but the choice was technically there.
As always, great video and analysis. I agree in not trusting Ozpin, not only because of what Raven says but because he refuses to let people make 'informed' choices. They don't really know what they're signing up for, who Salem is, any of it. To a degree there is justification, because Grimm do feed on fear and other negative emotions, but I think we're stuck with a 'lesser evil' situation between him and Salem. There's also a very strong chess motif, with the chess pieces in the first season, Cinder's symbol of the black queen, the idea that this competition between Salem and Oz has been going back hundreds or thousands of years... At this point whether Salem can be defeated or not, the people of Remnant have become pieces in their back and forth game throughout history.
What I wanna know is why we're so reliant first years. Where the hell are the graduates?
Ozpin has shared having a body before, it's an ability he has that's allowed him to exist so long. So... what happened to the original owner of his former body before Oscar? There he seemed fully in control. And how could he lose to Cinder when he created the Maiden powers? If he made four he should be stronger than the four out together. Every time he transfers to a new host his powers reset???
It seems like the more distant you are from Ozpin (nomatter if you're going to Beacon Academy) the more choice/options you have, the closer the are the less choice you get (like Pyrrha) so... Why trust Ozpin again if he has that kind of strategy planned already?
I agree with you on Pyrrha and Oscar being given ultimatums. I would suggest that Gretchin made the choice to become a huntress and has thus sorta foefeited her life to defend humanity even if she isnt aware of the full threat. That happens in out world too, children and young adults make life changing decisions without fully understanding what's at stake even if the stakes are rarely life or death.
Specifically with Qrow's defense of Pyrrha's "choice," I always thought Qrow sounded like he was sticking to that ideology because he has trouble stomaching the reality of the situation theyd dropped on Pyrrha and probaby several other Maidens before her that Qrows been around to see. He sounds a little forced when he says she chose kinda like hes trying to reaffirm it for himself. But that being said her decision to fight Cinder at the tower was abosolutely a choice, regardless of her personal philosophy. Ozpin had no real need of her after she failed to have the power transfered though I believe he did still care for her as his student. So her death was ultimately of her own making.
Short answer is no. No there isn't and the reason for that is because Ozpin's a shady person who shouldn't be trusted. Also there supposedly all doing this because it's their destiny which implies it's not their choice. One of these things is not like the other.
My opinion on the "Destiny Says So" trope is very simple: Take the universe and grind it down into the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of destiny, one molecule of duty, and yet great men believe that there is some great voice that calls them to adventure, some preordained mandate dictated by a higher power that judges us mortals by its dubious morality requiring them to take a certain action.
Frank G Well said. *claps* I agree with everything you just said.
Skyler Maves
They have a choice: run from their chance to change the world for the better/protect the peace *OR* embrace it for all that comes with it good and bad. It's their option. Ruby decided from a young age that she wanted to help and protect people. With every challenge and people trying to kill others? She's finding more and more reasons to stick to her decision. Knowing pyrrah? She wouldn't change her choice. She'd still protect the people, even if she didn't become the maiden. She chose. Hazel's sister chose to put others ahead of herself. Oscar chose to do the right thing because Ozpin didn't withhold anything from him. *They. All. Have. A. Choice. & they chose.*
No. Ozpin gave Pyrrha an ultimatum: become a Seasonal Maiden and potentially die or save herself and risk the world suffering. Ozpin didn't tell Oscar everything (making your statement about withholding anything false), not to mention that Oscar initially did not want to head to Mistral and was reluctant to stay. As for Ruby Rose, Ozpin looked at her, pointed out that she had silver eyes, and gave her an offer she can't refuse. As for Greta, we do not know the full details, so we can't make any conclusions.
CrystalOtaku93 What is the right thing? What if Ozpin isn't who he claims to be? What if in truth they never had a choice because it's their destiny to 'do the right thing'? My point being if destiny is a thing that the fact that they have a 'choice' makes no sense because destiny isn't in their control.
If ozpin controls magic why is no one considering the fact he could’ve passed the power down for amber who is unable to do so the reason he didn’t (I think) was due to him wanting to save his magical reserves to fight Salem plus he needed amber not phyrra so by his logic phyrra had to give her life for ambers
"Let's talk about Pyrrha"
me : T_________T
Now I understand where you are coming from however Qrow was right. She did have a choice. Though I will agree her choices weren't great. Become the Fall Maiden or allow the powers fall to evil; yet still she had the choice. Everyday someone out there has to make a choice of similar magnitudes. Which is why I believe the processes of choice was still relevant just as she made the choice to face Cinder Fall alone rather than allow her to destroy Becon or Vale without a fight.
"They don't need to be the most capable fighters; they just need to be able to kill grimm." Paraphasing.
Another day, another shed of evidence to undermines the reason why huntsman exist.
Except the tribe doesn't rely on their skill to kill grimm, they raid towns and leave them to fight the grimm that the tribe lured there.
In the case of Pyrrah, Oscar and the Maidens, no their wasn't a choice. As for people who enrolled in the Huntsmen Academies, that kinda 50/50 for me. On the one hand they are soldiers fighting Ozpin's war without even realizing it. Hell, they've been unknowingly given the task of protecting the most powerful objects know to man. But on the other hand, they did choose to enroll in the schools whether it was for honor, glory, of because they simply wanted to do the right thing. Maybe they aren't being told everything and maybe they are fighting a war, but even if things weren't as they are, their is always a chance that they would one day be called to war. It's a slim chance perhaps, but it's still a chance.
I see a lot of people agree with Fang here, but I have to disagree. Yeah, Pyrrha was justice oriented. Ozpin knew what choice she would make. But knowing someones intentions isn't cause for belief of manipulation. Ozpin, as I see it, just told her the facts. If you do this, it could go horribly wrong. If you do the alternative, THAT could go horribly wrong. She chose one, and it went horribly wrong in a way that no one expected, character wise.
The second issue, I really think is a case of oddity, I mean I don't see any confirmed information where the kingdom is tailor made to encourage Hunters as a common job. The reason there ARE hunters is to specialize in killing the monsters, because as seen in Rens town, there are many a monster that normal people can't fight. Yes the kingdoms have existed for long without the Hunters, but you can't assume they didnt have problems, especially considering Mountain Glen, Ren's backstory, and the general confirmation that you can't have a long lasting civilisation outside of the main kingdoms, even with Hunter patrols. As for being Ozpins fight against Salem, that could be a possibility, but it's more than likely not the case, as we don't see any proof of hunters provided with missions dealing with anything but Grim intentionally, ignoring those who are handpicked by Ozpin to know about Salem.
Me:*looks at thumbnail*
Me:Don’t even gotta watch it to know my side lol. But I will.
Yep still on the same side. Telling someone the secrets of the world and it’s evil then asking them to choose to help or live the rest of your life knowing this life shattering news is wrong. Ozpin loves Ultimatums.
Just to point that out(maybe someone already did)...but Pyrrah had a choice to become the FALL maiden...not Spring.
Charles Hockenbury 0:10...i was pointing at the mistake that was made in the video..He said Spring instead of falll
You forget. In volume five ,Oscar/Ozpin said that his power was reduced and waning. He likely doesn’t have nearly the strength he had back in the Great War days. He probably needs Huntsmen to compensate for that loss. Yet another cane for him to lean on.
Talking about "choise", its interesting you left out Raven and Crow's "choice" to be given the ability to turn to birds... if it was Ravens choice, why would she be so against it now, was it like Ozpin's huntsmen, where they were given part of the information when given the option, only to discover, later on, that there was more to it?
No there was never a choice. The minute Ozpin gave the four maidens their powers, he literally screwed the world over.
If Pyrrha had been able to make her own choices, she probably wouldn’t have died.
TheJaredPunch or she would still have said yes
Wesley Camario true enough
TheJaredPunch
By that logic if Ozpin was able to make his own choices he would have defeated Salem the first time and no one would have died (from Grimm and Salem anyways) the definition of choice you're using here is so narrow that no one has it fictional or otherwise.
Ignoring the fact that Pyrrha, herself, made the decision to fight Cinder alone?
That's a fact?
I thought, that fighting Cinder even so she knew fully well how strong she is was her choice... ^^
That much to "with her own choices she would be still alive".
The chess pieces that ozpin made them get during their entrance exam really have more depth now. Everyone is just a chess piece there is no choice to what they do. They're just chess pieces that ozpin controls and move according to how he wants whether they want to and he's fine with sacrificing a piece(Pyrrha) if it means it'll save the queen(Amber)
Yes. I find this idea to be kind of bull shit.
For Pyrrha yes it looks like she's being taken advantage of but she could have thought it out and decided that it either wasn't worth it or she couldn't trust it would work. because it's not "save herself or everyone else" it was "try this risky plan and maybe it works and maybe it doesn't". She was given the same choice as Qrow, Ironwood, or Ozpin.
Also I don't really get the Ozpin dislike, what is there that is actually not trustworthy, like solidly not head-canon., what has Ozpin does? He's not solely in charge, he's not all powerful, and sometimes things go wrong. What has he actually done wrong or untrustworthy?
Hazel's sister was a kid in an accident, so what not Ozpin's fault. Ren's parents died to Grimm, who knows what happened to Nora's family, so yeah a kid that wanted to fight Grimm ended up dying because something went wrong, do you expect Ozpin to be omnipresent or something?
nahte123456, From what I have listened to in this video: Sending children to a war between him and Salem.
Because Ozpin's methods are questionable morals, if you look closely Ozpin is not so different from Salem, with everything we've seen both see the world as a chess board, thousands dead for their actions, either directly or indirectly , and along with create a world where there are not real alternative roads,as Kain would say:" Free will is an illusion"
+Tyrael, OK let's me repeat myself, scratch that I'll copy-paste "solidly not head-canon" that's how you feel and headcanon what you see his decisions as, not what he's actually done. Show me what he's done that shows that.
+Zone but he hasn't. He's trained kids to fight Grimm, because yeah training people to fight monsters helps everyone's life span, he's not made anyone fight Salem at any time, nor has he specifically done anything to train them just to fight her.
If you really think well Ozpin has caused more harm than good, if you notice how things are done in Remmant clearly there a stagnation, it acts like the typical Big Brother, only controlling everything from the shadows and with his own private army of child soldiers, which do not know why he is really fighting, not to mention that his vision of the human race is something very simplistic, just look at Beacon before his fall, it was practically a city in a bottle, in reality his methods do not work, best thing that can happen to stop Salem is that someone else implements a new modus operandi
That's just stupid, and I mean STUPID. Did you miss the part where Ozpin answers to the Council, they can literally kick him out of Beacon they said so. Heck even ironwood, who has more political power then Ozpin apparently, Jacqui said even he'd need to bow to the Atlas Council.
So no, you're argument is just stupid, Ozpin isn't in control, he does not control the kids, he did not have Beacon as a "city in a bottle" and we have no ideas how his methods work before this incident.
There is always a choice, but Ozpin was very clever in positioning them. Pyrrha was just and centered in her sense to protect humanity above all, and her skills and combat prowess caught Ozpin's attention. He simply chose her because she was less likely to go against him. Oscar didn't seem to have a choice, Ozpin's soul was merging with his and I don't think he could resist Oz for long. But he could have chosen to resist, he could have chosen to ignore and fight to his death, but Ozpin looks for minds like his, as he explains in Vol. 5.
The fact that not many people are willing to accept is that Ozpin is in the Neutral Good spectre, and could be considered an anti-hero of sorts. He has a goal, and if lives have to be sacrificed, so be it. But while I don't trust his statements, I believe that what he has done is right. He said that he made more mistakes than anyone on Remnant, and there are a lot of things to consider there (creating the maidens?). So while he must lie to keep things going, he needs to lie or the war is lost. If people knew that Salem existed, and she was the master of the grimm, they would panic because of the prevalence the Grimm had over humanity, and the seemingly endless potential they had.
TL;DR, I'm with Oz, but I'll question him whenever I can, just like Yang does.
i miss Pyrrha
Snurly I know dude, I know
Who doesn't
SumDaGum anyone who thinks that Pyrrha is a Mary Sue. Stupid jerks
Was there a choice for Oscar? Not really; Ozpin is a part of him now, and considering his last body, where is no sign of another consicence, Ozpin is going to take over Oscar's body at some point. This was also forshadowed at the beginning of he show: "It's a bout a man with two souls, each of them fighting for control".
Oscar got forced by Ozpin's constant mental influence. Anything he does beyond the moment he leaves is just brainwashing.
Dave175 Does ozpin have any controle over who he bonds with?
He doesn't seem to get to pick, but he clearly has mental control over that person.
Dave175 T We know his reincarnation abillity was forced upon him and he seems willing to just advice the bonded person unless he think that they‘re not able to handle it.
One thing to consider is that the relic of choice is the crown tiara thingy, the very same article of clothing worn by Pyrrah at all times, and that it is the finest metal the smith in Minstral has found, perhaps fine enouh to be a relic?
Where is the safest place Ozpin can think of for the relic? If he knew Cinder had some of he Fall maiden's power, he would know it isn't safe in the vault, so why not move it secretly, and trust it to the world champion to keep safe?
Jason The Dead So you’re saying Pyrrha had it the whole time?
Yes, yes I am, however, I don't believe Pyrrah know that she did, and there was no way for her to knaw, similar to the way that you would have to say "Djin"
Jason The Dead I’m not placing a high bet on that one.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Oz: if you don't become the fall maiden, everyone will likely die and it'll be your fault, plus you may not be the same person afterwards. But it's your choice.
Pyrrah: that's not a choice. That's an ultimatum.
no salam is and has always been humanity's problem they are called grimm and also you think that before the acadamies were built children weren't taught to fight and sent to die that's laughable it would actually be far more necessary back then to have kids who can take care of themselves if the Grimm show up and all that and on several points you made I think ren and nora most likely being the only survivors including children from thier village would like some words that's the problem with some of your videos you make good points and I can enjoy them but at times and this happens a lot when you talk about ozpin you seem to have a idea in your head about how things are and then make excuses for yourself/to yourself I typically see this kinda behaviour in reactors who have watched something before hand and to make themselves look smart go off on a "theory" tangent that amounts to what sounds like nothing but excuses for why they "think" that when its just they already know whatever their talking about in your case it's like you have a idea of what's right in your head and are then grasping at straws and ignoring other things that might contradict it to prove yourself right at times and it can make you hard fo watch it's why I try to avoid your videos when ozpin pops up because I think a lot of people would come to the same conclusion that you might have a bit of a hate boner for the man( not trying to offend you just putting this out there like I said I enjoy your videos but at times you can be kinda headache enducing far to, straight laced? maybe is the words for it or a type of narrow mindedness and that can lead to problems taking you seriously)
Thanks for the RWBY info! It's kinda interesting and I didn't noticed that...XD "Choice"
Pyrah chose to become the fall maiden but okay ...okay
Only because she couldn’t say no
She was kinda trapped
Kameronia 6 I was saying that cause at the start he said ol pyrah had a choice to become the spring maiden but she was presented with the fall maiden powers not spring lol
She is dead. ACCEPT it!!!
But she's not dead, because of the choice to take the power of the fall maiden, instead of her choice to fight Cinder.
That much about she didn't had a choice, she had even two times a choice ^^
Loved the video, and i agree. I'm reminded of a line from the Vol. 2 Opening "Are we heroes keeping peace or are we weapons, pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory." it makes you wonder, how many more people he manipulated, like Summer and how he's probably manipulating Ruby. It also brings Qrow into question since he, to quote JacOneManBand "Drank the Kool-Aid"
i dont think you know what a child soldier is
jared wood things is that these kids aren't being put into real huntsman work yet. They're still training until they become adults. I don't get how people say "Ozpin uses kids in his war"
Yes they start Beacon at 17 and combat schools at a younger age. But again they're only being trained. By the time they get into real huntsman work, they're adults
Abiel Sanchez that's what I mean he says child soldiers when they really don't count what they do is not so different from somthing like a military boarding school exept nicer or somthing like rotc with the intent of starting a military career once they are old enough to enlist in. on top of that the Grimm are everywhere and kids should probably be taught how to defend themselves anyway sure huntman go out and hunt the Grimm but that doesn't stop them from rolling in on the town and killing everyone having people at least being able to take care of themselves seems like kind of a necessity
First, great video and good on you for sparking interesting conversations!
I think it really comes down to how you define “making a choice”. To make a choice there has to be options to choose from, and a person picks based on information they have.
Pyrrha did technically choose to sacrifice herself over refusing to help Ozpin and the rest. There was a lot of pressure, a tiny timeframe to really think on it, and her helpful nature at play, so like you said her decision would be obvious. I do still see it as a choice, but it is important to denote what external factors were at play.
Making a decision to potentially sacrifice your life when you know that people you look up to are expecting you to, a lifelong sense of responsibility weighs on your shoulders, and the social norms of a hunter/huntress society are at your back is much much different than deciding what type of ice cream to have for dinner, but a choice nonetheless. To her, saving people is most important. Whether that’s intrinsic to her nature or nurtured into her by the society she grew up in, it’s still important to her and she still makes the decision with that in mind.
This reminds me of the the deterministic/free will discussions. If a person has grown up in the United States and has a kind heart, they’re very likely to have very strong opinions on mistreating people and freedom. If that same person was born into a cut throat mafia family, they almost certainly would have different values. So do you really have control over yourself or your own views at all? If every decision you make is already decided based on your nature and your nurture, are you really deciding?
When it comes down to that level it almost doesn’t seem like it matters all that much to me. What’s the difference in me having free will and deciding on something and what I would decide already being set in stone based on who I am and my experiences? I know I’m getting a little far from the original topic but it feels relevant enough to throw in!
Apologies ahead of time for incomplete thoughts and typos. It’s five in the morning where I’m at :)
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I'm on Qrow's side with the Pyrrha situation. They made sure that she actively vocally agreed to the transfer. If she had refused, while disappointed, Ozpin and Co.(except for maybe Ironwood) would have understood and let her go about her life. She had made her choice. Admittedly they stacked the deck in their favor by picking the best student with probably the purest or second purest heart at beacon, but Salem and Cinder were already stacking the deck.
Also Ozpin isn't training kids(Ruby and Oscar being the exception) Most of the students at the 4 academies are college aged or within a year of that Age. They start at 17 which is around the age you'd graduate High School. It's the start of the next stage in your life where you are your own person. And by the time they graduate into proper Huntsmen they'd be at least 20 maybe 21 depending on their birthday.
We also don't know how gretchen died. Its possible that whilest fighting Grimm she perished. They never tell us so it could be any number of things. Hell maybe Salem did kill Gretchen to get Hazel on her side and framed it Ozpin's fault. We literally don't know.
Oscar didn't really have a choice I'll be honest. But neither did Ozpin.
It seems the FNDM sees Ozpin as like Palpatine, he's shady plotting and powerful and that aint good. I see Ozpin as being like Dumbledore, mysterious and powerful, but mysterious for a reason and probably a good one.
Technically, Oscar did have a choice. He could have ignored Ozpin and stayed on the farm. Could Ozpin have detached himself from Oscar and found another host I don't know. If not, would he have kept pestering Oscar until he agreed, would he have took over his body by force, or would he have just laid dormant in him until he grew old and died? I don't know.
@@realJoeMavro i doubt ozpin had the ability to force control on the farm. I imagine he has to connect to the current host before he can take the wheel so to speak
No before even watching the vid no
Very interesting, I also liked your choice in the "Beast Boy and Terra date at the amusement park" outro music.
I like the video but I have a few issues with it
1. Ozpin's war is if you really think about it everyone's war wether they like it or not if Salem wins everyone is screwed that's not Ozpin's fault
2. I don't think knowing what pyrah would do equates to force
3. Maidens and the abilities in RWBY are very inconsistent despite how much I love the show and if you think about it Maidens aren't all that powerful they aren't gods despite their power's what makes them strong is practice and skill like any other Huntsmen or Huntress. Raven beat Cinder cause she has 10 years of experience as a maiden, Cinder, Emerald and Mercury beat Amber fairly easily despite her being a maiden. It seems like despite their powers they can be defeated by someone stronger and they don't even have to be a maiden so if Pyrah had refused we know that full fall maiden can be defeated like any other opponent
4. The information your given in my mind is irrelevant considering that they made the choice to be Huntsmen or Huntress their was a risk of death whether or not they knew of Salem
5. Just because humanity was defending itself doesn't mean that would always be the case considering the Grimm have a super intelligent master that would've eventually destroyed humanity sooner if the schools weren't made
And people wonder why I was so emotional in the last few days...
The date is October 24th, 2018. Volume 6 is coming out in three days. We're about to see new things. New characters. New stories. New plot twists.
*And I still want Pyrrha back.*
There was a choice only it was Ozpins choice or before him the choices of those two brother gods. choices made by powerful figures leading others into impossible scenarios. showing that life is what we make of it but always formed by what came before.
i also just again like to point out the few super important lines of rwby volume 2 intro:
were we born to fight and die? sacrifced for one huge lie? are we heroes keeping peace? or are we weapons pointed at the enemy so someone else can claim a victory
wich perfecly explains whats happening and backing the video's motives (if you ask me)
The World building of RWBY when it comes to the "Great War" and the conflict between Ozpin & Salem, and how far it has come to the point where the World is mostly tailored made to serve Ozpin's goal of defeating Salem makes me take a step back and sorta ponder on the series as a whole: Kids (teenagers) fighting abominations born from begative emotions... Maidens given special powers to combat a (for the most part) secret threat... relics gifted from the gods to be safeguarded to not fall in the wrong hands... Makes me think of the lyrics for the song "Great War" by Sabaton:
"Where is this greatness I've been told?
"
"This is the lies that we been sold
"
"Is this a worthy sacrifice?"
I cant exaclty pinpoint why I think about this part of the lirics when I watch this video, but it pops into my head every time I think about all of it and the "question of choice"...