As a person who has a full second company of firstborn ultramarines, I use a huge amount of legends units and I love them. Everyone i play with locally is okay with me using them and I have been converting a few to use them as well.
@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber I have two different Cato Sicarius leading them, one is the official model and the other is made from the old space marine commander kit and modeled to be like the one they used for Cato in codeices from 4th edition with a plasma pistol and lighting claw.
One more thing GW does to hide Legends and Imperial Armour units : They do not translate their rules, so tough luck if you can't read english If you set your language to anything other than English on the Download page, the pdf just don't show up I wonder how many people have no idea Legends rules are a thing just because English isn't their main language
Couldn't agree more. I don't intend to ever play 40k in tournaments so I will continue to use Legends units in any and all of my games. The more variety the better as far as I'm concerned.
@@gammothdraws I do see big hesitation from people I play against to use them tho. Even if Aos 4th just started for example, there still is the fact certain units are legend now for them. Even in casual play, even if it are units they like. I don't know if that can be changed.
Huh, I didn't know that the Old World community had embraced the Armies of Legend. I was curious about the game, but lost interest when most of the factions that appealed to me (Lizardmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogres, and Vampires) were announced as Legends. I might have to give it a second look now that I know people are open to playing with those armies. Thanks for including that little tangent!
I think most armies I played against in old world are "legends". Because a lot of AoS players also picked up fantasy and use their already existing collections to play
Warhammer players collectively gaslighting themselves into being stuck up assholes to one another about having fun and then blaming GW for it, instead of being introspective and realizing they can do literally whatever they want with their plastic toy soldiers, GW rules be damned? Seems about standard.
Executives will see situations like this and continue to question whether they need to put resources into clear communication. Then again, basic research skills go a long way for a community.
Exactly this. I have to explain this to people who come into the store and complain that their models have been “legends” when they have never been to a tournament in their life and never intend to. People just see someone online (who the vocal majority of content creators are) crying about something, and assume it automatically applies to them.
GW should allow Legends again even in comp settings but if you do they have to have limits like x1 unit list for main characters, x3 for troops, x2 for vehicles, etc *only in tournaments* Only thing I can think you wanna ban completely in "Comp Legends" is fliers like Thunderhawks, that's about it
One of the biggest problems with legends and why my local store does not use them is that they aren't in the official GW app. The app isn't a "Tournament Roster" builder so it doesn't make sense for the Legends rules to not be included. But because they aren't, some of the people who only come out occasionally don't make use of them and we have had some things come up from it. The decision from the people who run the club was to stop using Legends as "GW is not supporting them".
@@patriciabenjamin7056 I use and like New Recruit. But my point is that GW claim to encourage and support the use of Legends outside of event games. But entirely disregard them from their app.
They took Gabriel Seth out of the codex, and out of spite I bought one. Man is basically Ragnar Blackmane; abilities and weapons are almost identical, same points cost, etc. Gabriel is simply worse because he can't lead Bladeguard. If Ragnar is acceptable, then so should be Seth
Having more options by having models in Legends is pretty rad. Having a model you like bejng moved to Legends feels like a defeat even though 4/5 times it changes nothing beyond maybe signalling that it will get less updates.
Last month my local store host an open-play tournament and encouraging people to bring legends and unusual stuffs to the event. It was a sight to be hold and very fun when all people intended to have maximum fun.
So at the start of the edition I was very favorable, use all you can in legends. I like it in theory and would love for rules to linger for all models for more options to draw from. Now I do have limited experience with only fighting orks as I've only just convinced my friend to try another army rules proxied by his ork models. After months of playing against him and almost every army containing grotmas gitz and da red gobbo, which for 80pts enable him to use the "grenade strat" 4 times a turn have caused me to retract my unwavering support and ask him to stop bringing them all the time. I think they need to provide support for legends maybe adjusting and balancing every other balancing cycle. No reason a hydra flak mounted on the ground is more expensive than the tank mounted one which has two more guns. While homebrewing can fix issues I think there needs to be official input as they are official rules. I doubly agree that they need to organize the rules better in one core location.
I think this is a separate issue. Even playing against a perfectly balanced army, if it's always the same and always uses the exact same strategy, it's inevitably going to get boring or frustrating if it's very well suited to beat your army. Lack of variety seems more like the issue than legends
I was listening to this in the background at work and my name is John, thanks for the jumpscare. I mean I have commented on a couple of your videos but I'm sure I was nice
Iron Warrior player here. Legends is my go to in list building. I play HH, i cant play HH as often as i wish. So, what do i do? I play them in 40k. It looks great, brings a sense of age and long lost tech of the imperium to the table, and adds amazing trashtalk/semi roleplay to the game ^^
i mean, thats the meme certainly, but in my experience most tournament players who are *actually good* are just a bunch of friendly former athletes who aged out of their sport and are super helpful. when i first saw steven box i thought he was a singularity in that, but then i found its rather common. people who violently insist on playing by tournament standard in a casually setting on the other hand are pretty much this this this.
I am one who has been leery about using Legends units myself, but have never had an issue with their use in casual games. In any case, my sanity was saved, last edition, by a homebrew codex that a dear friend was kind enough to put together. This was back when I was only playing virtually, and I was stuck all edition with a barely functional Guard codex from GW. So, I strongly agree with unshackling people's minds from tournament rulesets, and even GW rulesets as a whole. These are our toys, and we should play with them in ways that make us happy.
One thing that I think hurts Legends units too is that the official app doesn't have a legends section, so you cant add them in the app. New Recruit does and thats sick! But official support would make a difference in my mind, especially in helping to break the mindset of them being gone Ah, you just got to this point, oops, guess I should have waited to finish the video
I think the problem is that tourney is treated as the default way to play, by a company that is VERY loud about how people are and arent allowed to play with their toys, what's your biggest problem imo
So many great points here. I feel too many people think tournament rules are THE RULES for 40k! From table size to what you can play,the tournament mind set is too prevalent in the community. I started back in Second edition and when tournaments came into being, it was the worst thing ever. Everyone played their latest tournament list and got away from the fun,dare I say, unbalanced games we used to play. Legends are great,we use them all the time in our games.
That's also GW's problem They can't seem to keep casual play the normal rules with updates every so often and tourney as the ever evolving system they balance regularly. They want tourney being the ONLY way warhammer is enjoyed
Legends rules are also fantastic for kitbashers. GW don't make a model for this datasheet? Grab the next nearest thing and your spare bits from the rest of your army and go to town!
I see this in so many tabletop and card games. If the game has a competitive scene, or even just some kind of sanctioned play, it feels like everyone else adopts all the rules and conventions of that format. Disregarding Legends makes less sense to me than Silver border magic cards or rare options in pathfinder though. It isn't balance but the lack of a for-sale model that makes a model legends, I can't understand the resistance to Legends when I see the anxiety people have about their models being discontinued. Legends are one of the rare cool GW moves. Even though I only have new models, (Okay, I have a couple ancient metal ones) I love that legends exist.
Hell yeah! Bringing back the Repressor for sure. I've been thinking about getting someone on Fiverr to design 3d printable Repressor parts so it can fit better with the newer Sisters tank designs, like maybe a small shrine on top in stead of the pill box.
Ive seen a complete 3d stl for it on cults3d which looks nice. If you want to look it up: High Detail Sisters of Battle Sororitas Repressor Immolator and Exorcist 3D print model
Yeah, I'm convinced. I only play casual with friends and restrict my lists to non-legends because of all the tournament analysis out there. Thanks Christian!
The way that my local group look at Legends is that the rules aren't on the app or in the book with your current rules, so there's no reason to use them. But I do also remember getting slapped around by ForgeWorld rules for units like the Leviathan Dreadnought, back when FW was basically pay to win tournament rules, and we're all a bit cautious about Legends being a bit the same way.
could you potentially make some legends lists or strategies for old space marine players? My ironclad dreads don't seem to be good and it feels like devastator and tactical squads are utterly inferior to primaris intercessors and whatever flavour of heavy weapon squads are out there
@@animefan8254 Yeah you can. The current datacard lets you replace the stormbolter and powerfist with a missile launcher. You just can't buy the model anymore (but you can definitely kitbash a missile launcher using other bits)
Currently using three squads of Spindle Drones to give myself more board presence than my list of Daemon Prince + Keeper of Secrets spam has any right to have
My first 40k model was the Ironclad Dreadnought, which got legended a week later I jam him into every casual list I can so he may go out in glory when his legends units get outdated
My biggest concern with legends is that there’s no access to their data sheets on the app and I find the app super convenient when I’m playing a game. I built my roster this way access all my data sheets this way and I use command bunker to manage my game.
I'm a huge fan of legends. I got some really cool Female Crusader proxies and then they dropped them in the codex two weeks later. Ill be damned if im not using them. Im stoked to paint em!
Legends rules make sense to me, from a lore perspective, in regards to some units. Leviathan and Derideo dreadnaughts? Yeah, because they only get brought out if shit REALLY hits the fan. And pretty much nobody has them anymore, not to mention they can't be reproduced. Dimecharons, shrikes, winged carnifexes? Yeah, I guess they weren't worth the hefty amount of biomass for what they did. What DOESN'T make sense is when one faction has access to something that an allied faction can't use. A prime example of this: why do Custodes get to continue using Contemptors, while loyalist maries can't? The stat lines are/were identical from what I remember. Or why do some units that WERE playable during 10th suddenly get moved to Legends months AFTER their codex was updated for the edition, such as the Hieradules?
For the Crusade I'm running, I've limited the players to 1 Legends unit. The reason for that is half the players are very new and barely understand their Codices, I and another player only have one Legends unit we want to use, and the last is very competitive and would run roughshod on the new players if he had access to all his Legends stuff.
My issue is that i can't buy these models that i want to buy. Couldn't care less about the rules, because i don't have time or friends to actually play the game nowadays
I agree with this video whole heartedly. I think casual play is the best way to enjoy this hobby, and would rather not be restricted and have my friends restricted away from discontinued models or just cool model variants. I wish we got legends rules for the new mechanicum units.
Big problem with legends is that big chunk of them is really bad ,big chunk of people have line under wich are unit too bad tu use even in casual game and most of legends is under that line
Legend rules are keeping my primaris kill teams off the shelf, and on my local game tables. Well that and my local game group being ok with me going “these heavy intercessors just got home from the deathwatch, they want to show the buddies they made while away a good time, but they have agreed to leave the special ammo at home or surrender any left overs to the veteran kill team.” And you know just play them as regular units.
I'm not sure if I just got called out, because I AM an advocate for Legends... The main issue with legends is that they are exempt from regular updates, which can make them a minor handicap. That's not their fault, it's GW's. Karamazov being legends is a shame because we'll almost never see him on a tournament table, nothing more. I just enjoy homebrewing stuff... :( Also, bets on The Imperial Armor compendium gets more into the recycle bin as soon as the codex comes out... :( At least we're expecting another krieg line refresh. Did I really prompt a rant video man, or was this a long time coming?
@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber Fair enough. I mean, I didn't redo all the legends Killteams because I hate legends. If I did I wouldn't bother to homebrew them. I did it because it was UNSPEAKABLY aggravating to me that various units got a SINGLE Jump Pack model that could never make decent use of it because of the way unit coherence works. Thus the Angelus KT was born. Also, it annoyed me that the Fortis(?) Didn't have access to Infernus or Desolation marines, despite them being Tacticus armored. Veterans are one thing, and DW should just be able to bring Bladeguard, Sternguard, and Vanguard vets as normal, but those are cool Tacticus-armored units and fortis should be able to bring them, y'know?
Love this. I remember in 3e/4e all sorts of "is it okay if this unit does this" homebrew stuff was just part of the fun. Now, lots of units are still around with rules. I completely get the need for balance - at the start of the edition, leman russ variants were hideously overcosted and artillery undercosted. So a Medusa Vehicle now would be hugely OP, and a destroyer tank hunter would be awful. But the rules are there, and aren't broken, they're just not balanced. So negotiate a cost. In my current campaign I use Storm Chimeras at "official chimera cost +5pts" because the legends datasheet was five points more than the "official" chimera at the time. As long as you're not taking the piss, and your group has a bit of trust, it should be fine.
I've even chained specific power weapons into just close combat powered weapons. Because on my Banshee themed craftworld, they don't all use swords. Some use claws, axes, African style close combat weapons, etc. We've even got our own house rules for Isha, Morai Heg, and the Laughing God as avatars. Because I want to use my funny and custom toys. Both GW and non GW.
Didn't play much 40k until recently and this still applies. I had a bunch of OG Fimir that I used in early aos until they got squatted, while other models got given the legends treament. Sucked for sure up until I pivoted to beasts of chaos. That got legends'd so now I can at least play the army without it being made obsolete! And even then, I have plans to pivot the army to slaves to darkness anyhow, since Beasts of Chaos won't be playable for all too long.
I think Horus Heresy 2.0 and the "Legacies of the Age of Darkness" is amazing. I think for 40k 11th Edition and beyond, GW should do Legends Rules for Models that have Rules that will NOT be updated, the Codexes&Indexes that are regularly updated and then Legacies Rules for Models they want to include but are not ready to be put into a Codex or Index and will probably update throughout the Edition.
I use all my legends models and will continue to do so until they are phased out completely. Usually they are not that overpowered because GW closes rules gaps left by legends by giving similar rules to the remaining tournament legal models anyway.
I use a lot of legends choices in my beer & pretzels games with my friends ; it always feels like shooting your own foot because they are always overcosted, but it's still nice to be able to field a Stormbird or a Leviathan dreadnought from Forgeworld, or my nicely converted Possessed for Deathguard ! ...Fun comes with a price tag, unfortunately...
I'd be fine with legends if the rules were actually supported and updated. And included on the app. As it stands, they're not supported beyond some blanket token rules with no garuntee that they'll be around next edition, aren't updated and aren't on the most commonly available way to build an army list. A huge swathe of my collection is basically deemed "unfit" for play by GW, all because they cannot be arsed to do the bare minimum effort to update datasheets, be they Legends or otherwise.
@@Axquirix I watched it. I'm allowed to voice my thoughts as well, even in spite of what is said within it, although the majority of my thoughts align with Christian's. Legends are official rules. Legends are there to be played with in non-tournament systems. That doesn't change the fact that Legends rules are one and done. Or are you going to seriously suggest that the Chaos Cultists with autoguns special rule is even remotely functional in it's current state, as one example. They aren't supported. As in, they aren't updated or maintained. They aren't included in the offiical app, making building lists with them essentially a non-starter with the "official" army building app. Ease of access to Legends units is the biggest issue Legends units face right now. Thankfully, older editions are evergreen and I am having a lot more fun playing those with the models I want.
New to the game - I agree it is confusing. I interpreted “legends” to be similar to “no longer canon” (to mean “this is no longer legitimate but if you like it then feel free to enjoy it”)
If you have a friend or circle of friends you play with it shouldn't be a problem, though the way GW changes points every few months (but not Legends units) they may end up weirdly skewed. The problem will arise at tournaments- both larger more official ones as well as the local game store where they try to replicate what the big boys are doing.
I'll always be chill about opponents using Legends units, bless their hearts, but it still feels like the Death Knell for me. To think otherwise would afford GW a level of stability and competence that I am not quite willing to grant. Legends feels like the unit won't exist by the time my army is done and painted, and it feels like I'm being left behind by the game, and I also feel clever when I can reflavor or convert a Legends unit into something more tangible. (It doesn't help that Legends datasheets lacks lore and art, making it feel like they're more to placate upset customers than it is to keep units playable) Yeah, all of that is based on feelings. But I play this game because it *feels* fun to play. Also, my old favorites from way back (Assault Marines and Looted Tanks) don't even have legends stats anymore. No, Assault Intercessors With Jump Packs do not count, and yes, it is mostly because their name is annoying to say. So hanging on to Legends units feels like I'm setting myself up for disappointment in the near future.
I'm all about Legends units and I wish the bigger models like Thunderhawks & Porphyrions had slightly more competitive points since it feels more 40K to have these models in normal 2K lists.
I just finished my Deathwatch Terminators this weekend... Of course I'm going to play with them with the black spear detachment because I play with my buddies and they are chill... My big concern is what Space Marines are going to look like in Killteam 24 to know if I'm just going to be playing intercessors or if I'll eventually get a Deathwatch Veterans team again. Great video though! I really enjoyed this point of view on "have fun with your toys, you have more than one way to play with them"
I played two Cusaders just a couple of weeks ago. They sat on an objective and farmed primaries for the entire game. While the rest of my army ran around getting slaughtered. We were playing 1000 points vs Grey Knights. Removing Grand Master Voldus and his 10 Paladins proved a challenge.... I did miss a couple of tricks. I forgot to overwatch my Immolator and I forgot to use Morven Val's discard 3 miracle dice for extra attacks thing. That might have helped. We did seem quite outmatched though. I think I destroyed two 5 man strike squads and half the Paladins? And I had the Nemesis Dreadknight down to half wounds or less. Lost 38 for 84 on points though. :(
Most of the players in my flg are tornament players,and they don't play with legend units,so do i. However,i still bought lots of first born units because i love them. I think i'll use them in other game system instead(like One Page Rules etc).
More definitely needs to be done to remove the stigma of Legends, and get them into real fun and friendly tournaments, if well advertised I think that could be huge
From 2002, so not that experienced at life... I knew about legends rules, because I play since Black reach at which I picked the orks to face my father's space marines... And when I looked in his codex : the legion of the damned felt like the only way I would play space marines as deathwatch wasn't mentionned... I mean : 3+ invuln, with rerolling the deviation dice, fearless was pretty awesome in official rules, for the light tradeoff : you can't advance and 30 points compared to the veterans... So when I was like : maybe I should start a legion, the only place where I could find rules are the legends document with a datasheet... Also auspex tactics mentionned it but I never went and read it before....
This video has really helped reinforce my beleif that, I don't need to modify models in my first born Dark Angels army to proxy them as Primaris alternatives, screw that! Love my retro toys and I'm playing with my retro toys 😊
I've got a Stormhammer and you'd better *bet* I'm going to run it! But for real I love a lot of the Legends units and we frequently run them at our game store, got one friend with a 3d printed Mastodon of all things!
I've been saying this for SO LONG. I keep seeing people be like "I miss X edition!" And I'm like "Just go play that edition then?" Or "my unit got moved to legends!" Ok? Just play it with legends rules.
As a casual player who is in it for the collection and painting, my only playing partner is my wife. We use our own rule, GW rules are merely suggestions to us
ive been building my eldar army specifically with a bunch of it will be legends soon but shadow spectres are cool and i will use them some legends units blatently arent balanced t hough and are wild op and i think especially in a casual setting you should take that into account
honestly, my main issue with legends is not the "we put stuff we dont sell anymore in there, so you still have rules for the things", but the fact that they are also putting stuff in there that they are actively selling, like all the heresy marines things. And with the amount of times GW has shot themselves in the foot over 9th and the beginning of 10th and the astronomical prices, i am glad i quit about 8 months ago. Getting into other games like Battletech classic made me realize how problematic it can be if a single company (GW) basically monopolizes an entire genre of game and how much shit they can pull because of it
I am relatively new to 40k, less than a year, about 10 games in, there is a lot i have come to discover which plainly sucks and could be "easily" solved. I believe this game needs different formats, something like legacy, commander, type 2 in MTG that allow for different builds and lets players use their whole collection. It seems to me legends kinda wants to get there but as most GW rules it seems lack luster.
Sure we should use them but most look at it as a death sentence. Which GW deliberately foster that mindset. It’s a real shady way to be if you ask me. I miss liking GW but I don’t support people losing whole armies or many units just for greeds sake.
As a person who has a full second company of firstborn ultramarines, I use a huge amount of legends units and I love them. Everyone i play with locally is okay with me using them and I have been converting a few to use them as well.
Awesome!
Do you have Cato leading them? Or maybe Captain Titus?
@@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber I converted a Cato Sicarius myself :D
@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber I have two different Cato Sicarius leading them, one is the official model and the other is made from the old space marine commander kit and modeled to be like the one they used for Cato in codeices from 4th edition with a plasma pistol and lighting claw.
Legends need to matter no matter what gw says we need to play with what we like
One more thing GW does to hide Legends and Imperial Armour units : They do not translate their rules, so tough luck if you can't read english
If you set your language to anything other than English on the Download page, the pdf just don't show up
I wonder how many people have no idea Legends rules are a thing just because English isn't their main language
That is such a good point!
I had never thought of that
Bons baisers de France ☺️
Ok. Maybe i should play with legends units instead of trying to convince myself that GW doesn't want me to
I fully support your video here. I do hope this one gets the most reach, as I deeply appreciate bringing The Archivist into my games.
Share where you can, be the Zoat diplomat you want to see in the world
Couldn't agree more. I don't intend to ever play 40k in tournaments so I will continue to use Legends units in any and all of my games. The more variety the better as far as I'm concerned.
I don't think Legends is a good thing but it is better than just squatting people's entire collections.
Your mom squats on my collection🎉
It sucks how they are basically abandoned, but it's great that they are still allowed for those who want to
until next edition drops and they do become squatted
@@gammothdraws I do see big hesitation from people I play against to use them tho. Even if Aos 4th just started for example, there still is the fact certain units are legend now for them. Even in casual play, even if it are units they like. I don't know if that can be changed.
Huh, I didn't know that the Old World community had embraced the Armies of Legend. I was curious about the game, but lost interest when most of the factions that appealed to me (Lizardmen, Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogres, and Vampires) were announced as Legends. I might have to give it a second look now that I know people are open to playing with those armies. Thanks for including that little tangent!
samething with 30k
I think most armies I played against in old world are "legends". Because a lot of AoS players also picked up fantasy and use their already existing collections to play
Warhammer players collectively gaslighting themselves into being stuck up assholes to one another about having fun and then blaming GW for it, instead of being introspective and realizing they can do literally whatever they want with their plastic toy soldiers, GW rules be damned?
Seems about standard.
Executives will see situations like this and continue to question whether they need to put resources into clear communication.
Then again, basic research skills go a long way for a community.
If rules are arbitrary there is no game
This post ☝️👌
For 30k and old world legends is allowed and straight being used in events and that so it really cause of community
Exactly this. I have to explain this to people who come into the store and complain that their models have been “legends” when they have never been to a tournament in their life and never intend to. People just see someone online (who the vocal majority of content creators are) crying about something, and assume it automatically applies to them.
Legends is sad because in AOS 3th ed, there were a ton of legends units that we lost in 4th. So its cool for an edition but we lose more each ed
Personally a big fan of Renegade Heavy Weapons Teams, Ogryn brutes are also fun for chaos, Legends adds so many more options for Chaos Cult.
GW should allow Legends again even in comp settings but if you do they have to have limits like x1 unit list for main characters, x3 for troops, x2 for vehicles, etc *only in tournaments*
Only thing I can think you wanna ban completely in "Comp Legends" is fliers like Thunderhawks, that's about it
"Welcome to Games Workshop. Where the Descriptions are made up and the rules don't matter!"
One of the biggest problems with legends and why my local store does not use them is that they aren't in the official GW app.
The app isn't a "Tournament Roster" builder so it doesn't make sense for the Legends rules to not be included. But because they aren't, some of the people who only come out occasionally don't make use of them and we have had some things come up from it. The decision from the people who run the club was to stop using Legends as "GW is not supporting them".
The real issue is that the app doesn't even let you use legends units. Despite GW telling us they want us to use them...
They should have a little section on the app for Legends units
It's so weird because the AoS app includes Legends models.
Use New Recruit. It's free and has multiple GW games and editions. Only thing it doesn't contain is stratagems.
@@patriciabenjamin7056 I use and like New Recruit. But my point is that GW claim to encourage and support the use of Legends outside of event games. But entirely disregard them from their app.
They took Gabriel Seth out of the codex, and out of spite I bought one.
Man is basically Ragnar Blackmane; abilities and weapons are almost identical, same points cost, etc. Gabriel is simply worse because he can't lead Bladeguard. If Ragnar is acceptable, then so should be Seth
Having more options by having models in Legends is pretty rad.
Having a model you like bejng moved to Legends feels like a defeat even though 4/5 times it changes nothing beyond maybe signalling that it will get less updates.
Last month my local store host an open-play tournament and encouraging people to bring legends and unusual stuffs to the event. It was a sight to be hold and very fun when all people intended to have maximum fun.
So at the start of the edition I was very favorable, use all you can in legends. I like it in theory and would love for rules to linger for all models for more options to draw from.
Now I do have limited experience with only fighting orks as I've only just convinced my friend to try another army rules proxied by his ork models.
After months of playing against him and almost every army containing grotmas gitz and da red gobbo, which for 80pts enable him to use the "grenade strat" 4 times a turn have caused me to retract my unwavering support and ask him to stop bringing them all the time.
I think they need to provide support for legends maybe adjusting and balancing every other balancing cycle. No reason a hydra flak mounted on the ground is more expensive than the tank mounted one which has two more guns.
While homebrewing can fix issues I think there needs to be official input as they are official rules.
I doubly agree that they need to organize the rules better in one core location.
I think this is a separate issue. Even playing against a perfectly balanced army, if it's always the same and always uses the exact same strategy, it's inevitably going to get boring or frustrating if it's very well suited to beat your army.
Lack of variety seems more like the issue than legends
I was listening to this in the background at work and my name is John, thanks for the jumpscare. I mean I have commented on a couple of your videos but I'm sure I was nice
The reason Legends isn't played in most clubs is probably MOSTLY because Legends ISN'T available in the Warhammer App.
Now that you mentioned it, what *IS* the best way to play the Deceptors detachment using only Cultists?
Yes, this is a joke before someone says anything.
Iron Warrior player here. Legends is my go to in list building. I play HH, i cant play HH as often as i wish. So, what do i do? I play them in 40k. It looks great, brings a sense of age and long lost tech of the imperium to the table, and adds amazing trashtalk/semi roleplay to the game ^^
Chaplain Dreadnought! The one named character model that the Howling Griffons ever got was Forge World, and now it's long gone.
I use the new recruit app it has legend units. I use a crusaders unit in my 1000 point army.
Tournament Play - for when you like to surround yourself by ill-mannered strangers with poor hygiene
i mean, thats the meme certainly, but in my experience most tournament players who are *actually good* are just a bunch of friendly former athletes who aged out of their sport and are super helpful. when i first saw steven box i thought he was a singularity in that, but then i found its rather common. people who violently insist on playing by tournament standard in a casually setting on the other hand are pretty much this this this.
Nice well formatted argument but counterpoint: I'm shy and don't wanna ask to confirm they know the rules
I am one who has been leery about using Legends units myself, but have never had an issue with their use in casual games.
In any case, my sanity was saved, last edition, by a homebrew codex that a dear friend was kind enough to put together. This was back when I was only playing virtually, and I was stuck all edition with a barely functional Guard codex from GW.
So, I strongly agree with unshackling people's minds from tournament rulesets, and even GW rulesets as a whole. These are our toys, and we should play with them in ways that make us happy.
One thing that I think hurts Legends units too is that the official app doesn't have a legends section, so you cant add them in the app. New Recruit does and thats sick! But official support would make a difference in my mind, especially in helping to break the mindset of them being gone
Ah, you just got to this point, oops, guess I should have waited to finish the video
I think the problem is that tourney is treated as the default way to play, by a company that is VERY loud about how people are and arent allowed to play with their toys, what's your biggest problem imo
So many great points here. I feel too many people think tournament rules are THE RULES for 40k! From table size to what you can play,the tournament mind set is too prevalent in the community. I started back in Second edition and when tournaments came into being, it was the worst thing ever. Everyone played their latest tournament list and got away from the fun,dare I say, unbalanced games we used to play. Legends are great,we use them all the time in our games.
That's also GW's problem
They can't seem to keep casual play the normal rules with updates every so often and tourney as the ever evolving system they balance regularly.
They want tourney being the ONLY way warhammer is enjoyed
Legends rules are also fantastic for kitbashers. GW don't make a model for this datasheet? Grab the next nearest thing and your spare bits from the rest of your army and go to town!
I see this in so many tabletop and card games. If the game has a competitive scene, or even just some kind of sanctioned play, it feels like everyone else adopts all the rules and conventions of that format. Disregarding Legends makes less sense to me than Silver border magic cards or rare options in pathfinder though.
It isn't balance but the lack of a for-sale model that makes a model legends, I can't understand the resistance to Legends when I see the anxiety people have about their models being discontinued. Legends are one of the rare cool GW moves. Even though I only have new models, (Okay, I have a couple ancient metal ones) I love that legends exist.
Recently started collecting Salamanders with Firstborn core and my small army already 40% or so is Legends.
Me and my casual player friends gave up a few years back, dusted off our 7th ed books and still play that.
Thanks a lot for addressing the Legend topic :3
Might share this video just to get kicked out of my local club
For 6 editions, we had 1 way of playing. That was it. Your models had points, that was it.
Hell yeah! Bringing back the Repressor for sure. I've been thinking about getting someone on Fiverr to design 3d printable Repressor parts so it can fit better with the newer Sisters tank designs, like maybe a small shrine on top in stead of the pill box.
Ive seen a complete 3d stl for it on cults3d which looks nice. If you want to look it up: High Detail Sisters of Battle Sororitas Repressor Immolator and Exorcist 3D print model
Yeah, I'm convinced. I only play casual with friends and restrict my lists to non-legends because of all the tournament analysis out there. Thanks Christian!
The way that my local group look at Legends is that the rules aren't on the app or in the book with your current rules, so there's no reason to use them.
But I do also remember getting slapped around by ForgeWorld rules for units like the Leviathan Dreadnought, back when FW was basically pay to win tournament rules, and we're all a bit cautious about Legends being a bit the same way.
Fun video. Thanks for your take.
I like legends. They're neat.
could you potentially make some legends lists or strategies for old space marine players? My ironclad dreads don't seem to be good and it feels like devastator and tactical squads are utterly inferior to primaris intercessors and whatever flavour of heavy weapon squads are out there
There's some things in legends I never got r.i.p ironclad dreadnought and original dreadnought
Original dreadnought still has a normal non-Legends datacard
@@Stormeris can't get the missile launcher anymore
I got the ironclad painted up and then it got moved to legends
@@animefan8254 Yeah you can. The current datacard lets you replace the stormbolter and powerfist with a missile launcher. You just can't buy the model anymore (but you can definitely kitbash a missile launcher using other bits)
I’m still playing 2nd edition. Couldn’t care less what GW thinks is current or not.
Currently using three squads of Spindle Drones to give myself more board presence than my list of Daemon Prince + Keeper of Secrets spam has any right to have
My first 40k model was the Ironclad Dreadnought, which got legended a week later
I jam him into every casual list I can so he may go out in glory when his legends units get outdated
My biggest concern with legends is that there’s no access to their data sheets on the app and I find the app super convenient when I’m playing a game. I built my roster this way access all my data sheets this way and I use command bunker to manage my game.
i got a relic razorback and vindicator laser destroyer and damn it i'm gonna use them
oh. i use wahapedia too. might not be as perfectly up to date as some places, but i like it. so i use it
I'm a huge fan of legends. I got some really cool Female Crusader proxies and then they dropped them in the codex two weeks later. Ill be damned if im not using them. Im stoked to paint em!
Gen Z here:
I knew about legends, and I have been a strong supporter of using them since the beginning of 10th.
love the legends units, but i wish they where in the app.
same
I haven't gone 2 games without using legends units for all of 10th. Need to add my local group to legends because they are, and I love seeing them.
9:35 don't worry, I have three cultist mobs with dark communes, I have 75 models in no mans land before I roll initiative
LEGENDS FOR LIFE!!!
Legends rules make sense to me, from a lore perspective, in regards to some units. Leviathan and Derideo dreadnaughts? Yeah, because they only get brought out if shit REALLY hits the fan. And pretty much nobody has them anymore, not to mention they can't be reproduced. Dimecharons, shrikes, winged carnifexes? Yeah, I guess they weren't worth the hefty amount of biomass for what they did.
What DOESN'T make sense is when one faction has access to something that an allied faction can't use. A prime example of this: why do Custodes get to continue using Contemptors, while loyalist maries can't? The stat lines are/were identical from what I remember.
Or why do some units that WERE playable during 10th suddenly get moved to Legends months AFTER their codex was updated for the edition, such as the Hieradules?
For the Crusade I'm running, I've limited the players to 1 Legends unit. The reason for that is half the players are very new and barely understand their Codices, I and another player only have one Legends unit we want to use, and the last is very competitive and would run roughshod on the new players if he had access to all his Legends stuff.
My issue is that i can't buy these models that i want to buy.
Couldn't care less about the rules, because i don't have time or friends to actually play the game nowadays
I agree with this video whole heartedly. I think casual play is the best way to enjoy this hobby, and would rather not be restricted and have my friends restricted away from discontinued models or just cool model variants. I wish we got legends rules for the new mechanicum units.
As a Grot Commissar whose Grot Tanks were taken from them, I miss using my grot tanks.... I miss them so.
Big problem with legends is that big chunk of them is really bad ,big chunk of people have line under wich are unit too bad tu use even in casual game and most of legends is under that line
Thank You for sounding off on this topic. You giving voice to my war gaming despair has been cathartic.
Legend rules are keeping my primaris kill teams off the shelf, and on my local game tables. Well that and my local game group being ok with me going “these heavy intercessors just got home from the deathwatch, they want to show the buddies they made while away a good time, but they have agreed to leave the special ammo at home or surrender any left overs to the veteran kill team.” And you know just play them as regular units.
I'm not sure if I just got called out, because I AM an advocate for Legends...
The main issue with legends is that they are exempt from regular updates, which can make them a minor handicap. That's not their fault, it's GW's. Karamazov being legends is a shame because we'll almost never see him on a tournament table, nothing more.
I just enjoy homebrewing stuff...
:(
Also, bets on The Imperial Armor compendium gets more into the recycle bin as soon as the codex comes out... :(
At least we're expecting another krieg line refresh.
Did I really prompt a rant video man, or was this a long time coming?
I've had this planned for at least 3 weeks. While waiting on the Legends part of DW, I started scripting this
@ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber Fair enough. I mean, I didn't redo all the legends Killteams because I hate legends. If I did I wouldn't bother to homebrew them.
I did it because it was UNSPEAKABLY aggravating to me that various units got a SINGLE Jump Pack model that could never make decent use of it because of the way unit coherence works.
Thus the Angelus KT was born.
Also, it annoyed me that the Fortis(?) Didn't have access to Infernus or Desolation marines, despite them being Tacticus armored.
Veterans are one thing, and DW should just be able to bring Bladeguard, Sternguard, and Vanguard vets as normal, but those are cool Tacticus-armored units and fortis should be able to bring them, y'know?
I didn’t know about these legends rules.
Love this. I remember in 3e/4e all sorts of "is it okay if this unit does this" homebrew stuff was just part of the fun. Now, lots of units are still around with rules.
I completely get the need for balance - at the start of the edition, leman russ variants were hideously overcosted and artillery undercosted. So a Medusa Vehicle now would be hugely OP, and a destroyer tank hunter would be awful. But the rules are there, and aren't broken, they're just not balanced. So negotiate a cost.
In my current campaign I use Storm Chimeras at "official chimera cost +5pts" because the legends datasheet was five points more than the "official" chimera at the time. As long as you're not taking the piss, and your group has a bit of trust, it should be fine.
I've even chained specific power weapons into just close combat powered weapons. Because on my Banshee themed craftworld, they don't all use swords. Some use claws, axes, African style close combat weapons, etc. We've even got our own house rules for Isha, Morai Heg, and the Laughing God as avatars. Because I want to use my funny and custom toys. Both GW and non GW.
Didn't play much 40k until recently and this still applies. I had a bunch of OG Fimir that I used in early aos until they got squatted, while other models got given the legends treament. Sucked for sure up until I pivoted to beasts of chaos. That got legends'd so now I can at least play the army without it being made obsolete! And even then, I have plans to pivot the army to slaves to darkness anyhow, since Beasts of Chaos won't be playable for all too long.
I think Horus Heresy 2.0 and the "Legacies of the Age of Darkness" is amazing.
I think for 40k 11th Edition and beyond, GW should do Legends Rules for Models that have Rules that will NOT be updated, the Codexes&Indexes that are regularly updated and then Legacies Rules for Models they want to include but are not ready to be put into a Codex or Index and will probably update throughout the Edition.
I use all my legends models and will continue to do so until they are phased out completely. Usually they are not that overpowered because GW closes rules gaps left by legends by giving similar rules to the remaining tournament legal models anyway.
I use a lot of legends choices in my beer & pretzels games with my friends ; it always feels like shooting your own foot because they are always overcosted, but it's still nice to be able to field a Stormbird or a Leviathan dreadnought from Forgeworld, or my nicely converted Possessed for Deathguard !
...Fun comes with a price tag, unfortunately...
Absolutly with you on this!!!!! Here here!!!!
Fantastic video. Thank you!
I'd be fine with legends if the rules were actually supported and updated. And included on the app. As it stands, they're not supported beyond some blanket token rules with no garuntee that they'll be around next edition, aren't updated and aren't on the most commonly available way to build an army list.
A huge swathe of my collection is basically deemed "unfit" for play by GW, all because they cannot be arsed to do the bare minimum effort to update datasheets, be they Legends or otherwise.
Nice one for commenting before watching the video.
@@Axquirix I watched it. I'm allowed to voice my thoughts as well, even in spite of what is said within it, although the majority of my thoughts align with Christian's. Legends are official rules. Legends are there to be played with in non-tournament systems.
That doesn't change the fact that Legends rules are one and done. Or are you going to seriously suggest that the Chaos Cultists with autoguns special rule is even remotely functional in it's current state, as one example. They aren't supported. As in, they aren't updated or maintained. They aren't included in the offiical app, making building lists with them essentially a non-starter with the "official" army building app. Ease of access to Legends units is the biggest issue Legends units face right now.
Thankfully, older editions are evergreen and I am having a lot more fun playing those with the models I want.
New to the game - I agree it is confusing. I interpreted “legends” to be similar to “no longer canon” (to mean “this is no longer legitimate but if you like it then feel free to enjoy it”)
If you have a friend or circle of friends you play with it shouldn't be a problem, though the way GW changes points every few months (but not Legends units) they may end up weirdly skewed. The problem will arise at tournaments- both larger more official ones as well as the local game store where they try to replicate what the big boys are doing.
I'll always be chill about opponents using Legends units, bless their hearts, but it still feels like the Death Knell for me. To think otherwise would afford GW a level of stability and competence that I am not quite willing to grant. Legends feels like the unit won't exist by the time my army is done and painted, and it feels like I'm being left behind by the game, and I also feel clever when I can reflavor or convert a Legends unit into something more tangible.
(It doesn't help that Legends datasheets lacks lore and art, making it feel like they're more to placate upset customers than it is to keep units playable)
Yeah, all of that is based on feelings. But I play this game because it *feels* fun to play.
Also, my old favorites from way back (Assault Marines and Looted Tanks) don't even have legends stats anymore. No, Assault Intercessors With Jump Packs do not count, and yes, it is mostly because their name is annoying to say. So hanging on to Legends units feels like I'm setting myself up for disappointment in the near future.
I'm all about Legends units and I wish the bigger models like Thunderhawks & Porphyrions had slightly more competitive points since it feels more 40K to have these models in normal 2K lists.
I just finished my Deathwatch Terminators this weekend... Of course I'm going to play with them with the black spear detachment because I play with my buddies and they are chill... My big concern is what Space Marines are going to look like in Killteam 24 to know if I'm just going to be playing intercessors or if I'll eventually get a Deathwatch Veterans team again. Great video though! I really enjoyed this point of view on "have fun with your toys, you have more than one way to play with them"
Thank you
I played two Cusaders just a couple of weeks ago. They sat on an objective and farmed primaries for the entire game. While the rest of my army ran around getting slaughtered. We were playing 1000 points vs Grey Knights. Removing Grand Master Voldus and his 10 Paladins proved a challenge.... I did miss a couple of tricks. I forgot to overwatch my Immolator and I forgot to use Morven Val's discard 3 miracle dice for extra attacks thing. That might have helped. We did seem quite outmatched though. I think I destroyed two 5 man strike squads and half the Paladins? And I had the Nemesis Dreadknight down to half wounds or less. Lost 38 for 84 on points though. :(
10th points are power level. And it sux
brought a sicaran battle tank and a cerberus to play with my friend, I commited warcrimes, my guy was horrified
Most of the players in my flg are tornament players,and they don't play with legend units,so do i.
However,i still bought lots of first born units because i love them.
I think i'll use them in other game system instead(like One Page Rules etc).
More definitely needs to be done to remove the stigma of Legends, and get them into real fun and friendly tournaments, if well advertised I think that could be huge
Maybe, but Attack Bikes are Sooo overpowered it would skew the meta🙄
Keep up the good work, Christian.
From 2002, so not that experienced at life...
I knew about legends rules, because I play since Black reach at which I picked the orks to face my father's space marines...
And when I looked in his codex : the legion of the damned felt like the only way I would play space marines as deathwatch wasn't mentionned... I mean : 3+ invuln, with rerolling the deviation dice, fearless was pretty awesome in official rules, for the light tradeoff : you can't advance and 30 points compared to the veterans...
So when I was like : maybe I should start a legion, the only place where I could find rules are the legends document with a datasheet... Also auspex tactics mentionned it but I never went and read it before....
This video has really helped reinforce my beleif that, I don't need to modify models in my first born Dark Angels army to proxy them as Primaris alternatives, screw that! Love my retro toys and I'm playing with my retro toys 😊
I get all built up for legends, then my FLGS tells me I can't use them at the casual event next weekend :( so deflated rn.
I've got a Stormhammer and you'd better *bet* I'm going to run it! But for real I love a lot of the Legends units and we frequently run them at our game store, got one friend with a 3d printed Mastodon of all things!
Mastodon is a very cool model!
Id love to use my legends units, but i have to find the 40k players inu area first, and i cant ever seem to find them when I go to the local shops.
So I started a Deathwatch army and I bought the models for the killteams that are now in legends, I hope I can play them in my warhammer shop :(
I've been saying this for SO LONG.
I keep seeing people be like "I miss X edition!" And I'm like "Just go play that edition then?"
Or "my unit got moved to legends!" Ok? Just play it with legends rules.
As a casual player who is in it for the collection and painting, my only playing partner is my wife. We use our own rule, GW rules are merely suggestions to us
Cooking with the alliteration
Hey, weird question I know, but what's the best way to win when using the Deceptors detachment with only Cultists?
Hey Christian, with the changes to Deathwatch, is it still lore friendly if I made one of my Salamanders an ex Deathwatch member?
Yes, absolutely! They can keep rocking the shoulder pad if they want
ive been building my eldar army specifically with a bunch of it will be legends soon but shadow spectres are cool and i will use them
some legends units blatently arent balanced t hough and are wild op and i think especially in a casual setting you should take that into account
honestly, my main issue with legends is not the "we put stuff we dont sell anymore in there, so you still have rules for the things", but the fact that they are also putting stuff in there that they are actively selling, like all the heresy marines things.
And with the amount of times GW has shot themselves in the foot over 9th and the beginning of 10th and the astronomical prices, i am glad i quit about 8 months ago. Getting into other games like Battletech classic made me realize how problematic it can be if a single company (GW) basically monopolizes an entire genre of game and how much shit they can pull because of it
I am relatively new to 40k, less than a year, about 10 games in, there is a lot i have come to discover which plainly sucks and could be "easily" solved.
I believe this game needs different formats, something like legacy, commander, type 2 in MTG that allow for different builds and lets players use their whole collection. It seems to me legends kinda wants to get there but as most GW rules it seems lack luster.
Sure we should use them but most look at it as a death sentence. Which GW deliberately foster that mindset. It’s a real shady way to be if you ask me. I miss liking GW but I don’t support people losing whole armies or many units just for greeds sake.
For the Emperor
I also have Ultra Marines and the 1st Dark Angels.
Lots more but let's not go into all my armies lol
Preach brother