Tanks Are Now The Priority Of The Overwatch 2 Team?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Everything is streamed live @ / flats before being uploaded to TH-cam.
► Main Channel: / @flats_ow
► Clips Channel: / @flatsclips
► More Flats: / @more_flats
►Edited by and thumbnail done by: Randomvstheworld
►Follow Me
►Discord: / discord
►Twitch: / flats
►Twitter: / flats_ow
►TikTok: / flats_ow
►Facebook: / flatsttv
#Flats #overwatch2 #overwatch
Theres really no worse feeling than dying first as tank knowing you've lost your team the fight.
every. fucking. time. now, on a rare occasion, dps&support will survive til you come back but that fight in itself is tough.
But also sometimes you're the tank that lives and it's great.
Or living last until you realize that your team is never going to kill anyone
Ive had to pretty much be a meta slave and main cassidy and sojourn so i can help my tank, its caused a lot more kill trades for the tanks but then im part of the problem, its just not fun
Bahahaha they start dropping like flies immediately bruh 🤣
Tank in 5v5 has 3 avenues:
1. Miserable to play (not tanky, gets blown up, but does enough damage to make a play every now and then)
2. Boring to play (people complain about blowing up. Blizzard makes them tanky but has to reduce their damage to balance. People now bored because they feel they can’t make plays)
3. OP (make them tanky and do a lot of damage to make plays. Makes every other role miserable but tank is now fun.)
The problem with tanks in 5v5 is the lack of utility and the abundance of deniability plus cc makes the game so bad. Moba games don't really have these issues but they still happen but in general all roles have impact
The best thing I think they could do is make more changes like the headshot reduction, one by one until tanks don't feel so squishy, while ALSO balancing per hero to keep them in check. But that's assuming they wouldn't take the easiest route..
I would argue that 5v5 honestly does all of these things at the same time to tanks
@@comanderdre1569 moba has items
@@comanderdre1569Tanks had more utility and freedom in 6v6 because you were usually tanking almost half the amount of cooldowns you are tanking in OW2. Getting hit by 4 or 5 different cooldowns in the beginning of the fight as a solo tank is hell.
I have a crazy idea where they slightly nerf the tanks but add one more tank slot in a match
genius
@@g0dsp33d5 I believe that they will study my brain in the future
Hell no, two tanks would be hell now especially with mauga, his ult + any other tank ult would destroy and imagine a roadhog + cardiac overdrive
@@llllIlllIllI make cardiac only apply to mauga and slash his health, among other changes.
Does anyone remember the days where you’d get two main tank players on your team? The enemy team runs Rein/Zarya, while your team runs Rein/Winston and you lose. Why do people only want to remember the good things about 6v6? I used to hate running tank with all the one tricks running around. Guess I’ll play whatever tank you don’t know how to play. 5v5 is far from perfect, but at least I always get to play what I want to play.
I remember early OW2 when Tank queues were dummy long
Because the majority of people were too nervous to take a lead role like that and it's main objective wasn't getting kills. It's the same in WoW. All some people can wrap their heads around is doing damage and getting kills.
@xDjembex no they were long queues meaning ppl were lined up to play it
@@xDjembex Well, the tank queues being long at the start of OW2 was an indication that the role was *too* popular, particularly since we had to squeeze 1/3rd of the playerbase into 1/5th. Now, we're having the opposite problem, where too few people even want to play tank. Many of the people who have been playing tank hate how it feels right now, and there's less newcomers for the reasons you mentioned. I'm just glad Blizzard are acknowledging the problem.
@@Steve_Norris yeah I like to queue all roles, and i always get tank lol
@@xDjembexnah the role was really strong lol
knowing Blizzard they will just put a new Tank passive where "Damage reduced by 15%" theyre super lazy like that
That would fix at least some of it the fixes are simple reduce damage taken by 10% reduce dps passive on tanks by 5%
@@Luciferthekingofpurgitory It's like patching a dam with modeling clay instead of just building a dam that works. Sloppy. New players aren't gonna know or keep track of 3 unique passives for each character and the 15 unique interactions they have with each other
@@dmwanderer9454 there’s no real fix for tanks without them becoming absolutely busted that’s the problem here you see this in all sorts of games but sure tell us your masterful fix to fix tank
@dmwanderer9454 it's like how ow1 had stupid amounts of visual clutter at times but now it's with passives all taking effects at different times
@@dmwanderer9454alot of people don't even know about dps passive. Just heard someone in game yesterday complaining, not knowing why the supports were able to out heal the damage he does to a dps.
(Because none of our DPS hurt the enemy to proc the passive)
At this point team 4's philosophy is anything but 6v6
6v6 won't solve anything. Lol
@@cpenner7086 It will, you are just clueless
@@cpenner7086u right. This rock paper scissors solo tank experience has been great to balance
@@cpenner7086 6v6 solves the tank role. Lol
Show us where the other 100% of tanks are to fill your games
My concern looking at this is that, while the devs are trying to comment on the fundamental problem of tank survivability, they didn’t say anything about the other massive problem tanks specifically have: counterswapping.
I'm hoping the ability to choose role specific passives will help if they implement it into the actual game. This way you can just swap your passive instead of the hero but we will see when they test them later this season
I mean that problem is really hard to solve imo, its not like they can just make you choose once at the start of the game and not being able to switch after, the entire point of being able to switch mid game is to counter the enemy team but it do be really annoying sometimes
They did talk about this in an interview n that they're working on ideas for some sort of system to make swapping a harder choice/cost smth.
We'll see how that will feel cause free swapping was smwaus THE thing about ow's player experience
@@noahsarkhive4482 theyll do the same shit they always do and change the values of how much ult charge you retain when swapping...idk how they havent realised that this does not work.
As a doom main.
If I'm playing right and opening space, doing damage, distracting the healers, and my team is taking the opportunity to move through choke points.
The enemy swaps to sombra and hold right mouse button all day on me, my value becomes negative.
Cassidy? One nade and I'm done.
Orisa? Can't damage her, can't charge punchs near her, can't dive back lane if she does the bare minimum.
Me: think I'll stop playing this game, it's not fun anymore.
honestly the "rein is not tanky enough, give him more shield health" feels like a miss, rein's shield is tanky enough to be used already, it could use more health sure, but as long as you're above 800 barrier hp you have a decent enough safety net if you're really in a pinch (unless they have a bastion, mauga, junkrat, pharah or just anyone with high enough burst/consistent dps) it's when you drop your shield to swing your hammer around to apply more pressure is where rein's non-tankiness really sticks out
when you drop your shield you leave yourself open to hinders, anti nades, sleeps, d o ts, high burst damage, hacks there's just so many things that can take away 350-400hp in milliseconds that also apply a debuff that makes it even harder to survive which forces you to turtle up with your shield not able to apply any pressure all while the cooldowns that left you hurting that much are recharging and there's still another 2 big status effects you have to soak up solo since there's no 2nd tank to help apply pressure and god knows the only dpses that can apply the same pressure a tank is a cracked widow or a pocketed ashe/sojourn
I honestly can't think of another solution than 6v6 or reintroducing the defence/offence roles where defense heroes are pseudotanks with higher health pools but worse damage than the offence heroes, the 2nd option sounds so stupid and bad but since the overwatch team is allergic to 6v6 we've not really got much room to work with that doesn't involve tank being the only role in the game that matters
TLDR: “We’re going to try our hardest to not let Hog, Mauga, or Orisa be hard meta for the foreseeable future. Also Rein buffs.”
It’s actually hilarious how much they dodge even discussing 6v6. Just flat out say they won’t add it so I can move on forever
They won't, they want to pretend that they're being open with the community whilst at the same time not telling us anything because they end up lying to us
They can’t say no so that in a few years they can add 6v6 to the arcade for a short period, most likely during an anniversary season.
They literally said they’re going to talk about it soon on Twitter
@@dylanholm9995 sorry I’m not a twitter enjoyer
da Respawn said dey never gonna add Solo to Apex but did
Maybe da Blizz will finally relent
I don’t think they know what they’re doing. I think it’s just a ‘we’ll try this thing this season’ and they don’t really care as long as they keep pumping out skins and getting the $. As long as they are seen as doing something. And with the risk of being a 6v6, it’s super frustrating for them to not even broach the topic, and when there’s a chat with a streamer you’re basically silenced if you bring it up.
Samito recently put up an interesting video of reacting to another creator’s video of what went wrong with Blizzard; which is a really good watch. Basically all the original creatives have left the building because Blizzard has just become a business based; and the suits were making the shots. Meaning even if we went back to 6v6, we’d still have a product that is still weak because even if there are decent creatives there, in the end it’s the business side of things that will make the shots and the game will always be a deadend shell of it’s self.
Exactly this. At this point it's like someone in a zombie film in denial their loved one has turned. No fixing it just need to put it down.
I wish this mattered. I really do. They've tried to ""fix"" tanks like a billion times so far and have literally accomplished absolutely nothing. I can't lie, I have absolutely no hope at all whatsoever for this. I'm sure this will just be even more patches that don't do anything.
Sadge
They've never claimed to "fix" tanks. All they've ever done, and all they can do, is work to improve the experience. One step at a time. Because that's how balance works.
It's a constant, active process, with no definitive end. It's a fact that even if every hero had a 50% win rate, the community would still not be happy. You cannot completely "fix" something in a way that everyone agrees with, and you certainly can't do it with one singular change.
Same here. If anything the way they're talking about this just shows even more they have no idea how to fix the role
@@untapped8776 Nobody wants all heroes to have 50% winrate. Literally nobody cares about winrates at all other than blizzard devs deciding which characters to micro nerf and micro buff for their newest micro patch. We want the game to be FUN and / or to play the characters we like without getting counter swapped by literally every single person on the other team 100% of games because the entire depth of the game is 5:1 counter watch. You can argue semantics all you want because he used a word you don't like but the point still stands they have done absolutely nothing to address the core issues of tanks and based on how they're talking about "tankiness" instead of "5:1 counter swapping" it shows they are still completely clueless.
@@ironman1458 bro is mad, lol. Chill bro, You gonna go beat the devs up or something?
10:15
Endless shields. I play open queue QP with my friends. Just yesterday, won the first round of Nepal. Second round enemy team went rein, sig, ram. With Bap and Cass.
We did not have fun that game.
6v6 with two tanks is alot different than three tanks. Role queue with only two tanks sounds a lot better than what we got now
But was the problem the shields or bap? That is my question
@mitchellsalazar6276 both? Both. Both were bad.
Bap can be dealt with with anti or hack. Or flanked with anyone not in bronze qp, but trying to get much damage out with shields blocking bullets and healing (what little we had).
Hindered, pinned, rocked, slammed, fluxed. Couldn't do much *shrug*
the problem with open que is that it's basically mandatory to play goats to win.
Don't forget brig.
Reinhardt:
Charge pin damage increase
Fire strike 150 damage
Shield 1600-1800 hp
Shatterbonk does 300 damage
If they really want to make tanks work in 5v5, they should find a way to take the pressure off of tanks.
They should expand the tank passive to a resistance type where negative effects such as knockback, stuns, slows, AnTi-HeAlInG, HiNdEr, DoTs, HaCkS (aka ability lock-outs), FrEeZe, DiScOrD oRb, and such all have a reduced effects (in terms of effectiveness/duration) on tanks. They made similar changes with sleep and Suzu, so why not go all the way?
After that they can work on making tank-busters less effective on tanks. Because after all, why do we even have tank busters in 5v5?
For example Bastion. Currently when in Sentry form, he cannot crit. Ok, so how about they make it so that when he’s in Sentry form, his damage registers as crit damage. The crit damage multiplier would still be set to 0 so he won’t do more damage than he does now, but when hitting tanks, the shots will register as crit hits and thus the tank passive will kick in and they will take 25% reduced damage from Bastion’s Sentry form, that way they don’t immediately just explode and would also incentivize the Bastion player to prioritize other heroes like the dps/supports instead of immediately going for the tank and losing on a 25% damage output.
Of course, they would have to tweak some heroes here and there, but at this point it’s one thing worth trying.
This could be good.
The issue is that tank needs to keep focus, that’s the entire point of the role. If the enemy team isn’t looking at the tank, then the tank’s team dies. The only reason the tank’s team doesn’t die is because the tank is there to be a threat and take attention. If the tank doesn’t have a team, the tank dies.
It’s an interesting idea, I won’t refute it, but my issue is that there’s already so many situations where it’s easier to destroy the team and ignore the tank, that adding more incentive to do so could turn the game into “who can ignore the tank more?”
Of course, there are exceptions to the rule like ball, but even there he draws so much attention away from his team
While good in theory imo this would vastly over buff tanks taking a lot of agency away from other roles
@@FenekkuKitsune Nobody said tanks didn’t need to keep focus. But what we currently have in the game is an over-focus on tanks to the point where they are just expected to -tank- eat all the damage and CCs in the game.
“Just discord the tank.”
“Just hinder the tank.”
“Just hack the tank.”
“Just slow/freeze the tank.”
“Just shoot the tank.”
It’s not fun.
@@thederpydazer That’s the point. Right now a Zen can just place a discord on the tank and it’s game over for the tank player. Making it not as effective on tanks will make discord orb still viable in taking sown tanks quicker, but not to the point where they just instantly explode due to it being weaker specifically on tanks. Not to mention that it will also incentivize Zen players to discord other enemy heroes other than the tank and get more value instead of turning their brain off and just placing the discord on the tank.
TDRL: Tanks are always supposed to be on the frontline. They’re the ones who are supposed to take space and be the firsts to engage, but it’s not fun when they’re they’re the ones with the biggest hitboxes in the game and thus everything is thrown at them. There should be a change to combat the pressure that tanks get for merely existing.
In steamcharts, the players number has decreased. It went up after the hitbox changes and now it's down.
Time for a sentry shield, we’ve got two damaging turrets and a healing turret. It’s time for an auto shield.
F*ck it lets do 7v7!!! 2 tanks 3 dps and 2 supports! LETS DO IT!!! Should also decrease DPS time for lower ranks... BUT... if you notice FLAT'S stream, support time are longer on higher ranks... so better get good in support too.
I have no clue how the OW2 devs still have some good will with the community lmao.
Devs: tanks will get a heal debuff when a dmg is shooting them
Devs: So we noticed tanks aren't as tanky.
It’s always we “wait and see” and what we end up with is a problem worse that what we asked to be fixed
I also want to know what ranks are they grabbing for the stats on the win rates for all champs
Quick note on Flats being surprised about Zarya being one of the winners right now on Tank:
I am by no means a Zarya player.
I play every Tank, but Zarya is probably my least played considering how long she's been out, mostly because I find her very unfun both to deal with and play as...
That being said, I've taken to playing Zarya way more often recently and feel like she is thriving right now.
Don't get me wrong, the headshot reduction's a relatively big part of that, but I think the biggest reason isn't just that.
The fact that the DPS passive exists now means more than ever if your DPS get picked early on, you just don't even get to engage, even if you set up a great opening.
I personally have been able to clutch a decent amount of losing games by just going Zarya and babysitting my DPS with bubbles if the only reason we're losing is our DPS can't go 2 seconds without getting picked before the teamfight even begins because they just HAD to peak before we regrouped.
It's not the most fun, but it turns lost games around, and unfortunately the alternative of constantly being forced into 1v5 situations is even less fun.
Also Zarya just generally has mostly good matchups against other Tanks.
Tank just feels like so much pressure. If I die then my team will likely lose. I’m in a constant 1v1. I constantly feel like I need to swap heroes to match the other tank. I hate it. Support and Damage are so much more fun and easygoing
These aren’t balance issues - it’s 5v5
Its physiological. Spilo is so right on this. Most of the time it isn’t even beneficial for you to shoot the tank but because there is no visual queue or sound or whatever to show u that u are wasting time, people continue to dump cooldowns and shots into them. An example is shooting Hog gives you way less ult charge but because there is no form of physiological indication most players aren’t gonna be able to differentiate between the benefits. All players see is a big target easy to hit yet you get the same queues as if u shoot a squishy, ofc ppl gonna opt for the tank.
Honestly i think tanks are very strong atm. The problem is counter picking and not just tank v tank but the whole team countering you the tank. Playing dva? Zarya, sym, mei comes next fight. Winston? Hog, reaper, brig. No matter how strong tanks become, it will feel bad to play if hard counters are in the game. All we're doing is making the other roles feel just as bad to play because in their POV they're just shooting at someone who cant die.
Tanks individually are strong but the problem is that they are getting lasered down every fight. To fix it they should make tanks have more survivability but reduce damage as to not make them just tankier DPS.
@@ragerasse7616 I see where you're coming from and yes sometimes tanks do just blow up. But I feel like survivability is the wrong way to go with balancing tanks. We've seen how annoying/boring sustainable tanks are. The cycle of hog/Orisa/mauga showed that mitigation/DMG reduction/survivability/raid boss whatever you want to call it, just isn't healthy for the game. I agree that they shouldn't be beefy DPS but that doesn't mean they should just be a sponge. What I want is for them to create small counterplays INTO their counters. Make counters good against them, but also have windows of opportunity for that person getting countered to still shine. If that's in play, then I don't think we would need anymore survivability than what we already have.
They should make 4 roles 6v6 at this point it’ll help with team play for example,
Shield Tank: Off Tank: DMG: Support
That way double shield meta fixed and it promotes working together. I’m saying at least try it in some sort of event would be interesting.
Part of the issue with role passives (which I know you already don’t like) is any change with individual hero’s changes have exponential consequences.
YES I said the same thing about shields, ram has time and it’s weak, sigma barrier is probably the best shield yet its has to be recalled, winton bubble is mid, rein shield is just there and no more orisa shield
If there is shield then just dive go ball racer Genji or sombra it’s not that bad
5:35 most players would rather have Hanzo deleted from the game, but in this case I'd rather have bigger projectiles and no one-shot
O2 Meta: Orisa, Hog, Mauga for the 9000th time
O2 Devs: makes the absolutely tiniest buff to a tank barely anyone plays (ex: Rien)
O2 Meta: Orisa, Hog, Mauga, with a little bit of Rien
O2 Community: “waaaaa it’s not a buff to DPS to make them Uber busted”, “waaaa Rien is absolutely busted waaaaaa”
O2 Devs: Nerf the newly buffed tank
O2 Meta: Orisa, Hog, Mauga for the 9001st time
O2 Community: “yay the (newly buffed tank) is nerfed now O2 Devs Uber buff DPS pls”
Basically how it goes literally every time the Devs want to buff tanks
Plat tank player here, got back from about a 6 month hiatus from the game, and god, it's rough. Unless your supports pocket you, you're dead almot immediately. I main Sig, and he just can't do anything. His sheild is absolutely usless, and his rock barely takes the enemy out of the fight for more than a second even without kiri.
I wish they’d bring Orisa’s shield back and take some power out of fortify.
Javelin Spin just feels like such a nothing ability and her shield had a lot of uniqueness to it.
Maybe I just need to be burned at the stake though, idk.
11 seasons later still trying to figure out how to fix 5v5. Game is still uninstalled
Some of the community changes would help like the rein change
There's no fixing this without 6v6, im sorry.... 🙅🏾🙅🏾🙅🏾
Just give tanks a 30% passive damage mitigation. Easy fix.
I'll truly never understand why they reworked orisa and took away her barrier for OW2. The problem was never orisa barrier itself or rein barrier having 2000hp, the problem was always when they stacked with each other giving shields 100% uptime, which was solved inherently by switching to 5v5. This current version of orisa is infinitely more annoying to interact with than OW1 orisa ever was, and she's more braindead with far less play-making potential on top of it. I'll forever be bitter for what they did to her
in what circumstance can a 2/2/1 format be fair? imagine if there could only be 1 dps or 1 support. its almost dumbfounding that this is even a point of contention.
Your idea of roadhog being op is crazy.
All the support counter all his kit,
the meta DPS melts hog
Other tanks deny hog utilities.
I'm curious though how the stats are affected by console. And if splitting balance would make sense so either side gets higher quality balance
Let's be honest here. Hog is the best tank to play in 5v5 because he gets the most value of any tank by playing corners and independent of his team for resources, set-up or follow up.
IMO, sheilds couldve simply been fixed by the introduction of more pen characters like Rammattra ect, but no we needed to justify 5v5
They will buff tank HP to the point people have to ignore them. Also - there no world in which 5v5 is as diverse in hero or map design or comps as 6v6
Honestly , the way the devs are running this game it feels like they either arent getting the resources from blizzard or they’re just being lazy . For example the orisa skin only had maybe 2 gun customizations and 3 color changes … like the fuck is that??? And the passives since they are trying to balance the game without checking each character ( even tho they said they were gonna start doing that here ) . But yeah it feels like the game is being ran by a small indie company at this point .. oh yeah did I forget the cheater problem too?
Flats, the little people have no power in the community, we NEED you and other large overwatch content creators to vouch for 6v6, it doesn't matter how powerful tanks are when all you can do is counter swap, an easy fix for double shield is to makes two categories, shield tank, and non shield tank, then make it when two shield tanks are selected reduce shield health by 60% overwatch won't survive 5v5, we need to address this problem PLEASE FLATS YOU HAVE THE POWER TO FIGHT FOR US
This is probably the riskiest dev blog so far, if tank is still cooked after this clear focus on the health of tank, what are we going to do? if tank is still cooked after the future patches that are supposed to salvage tank then the 5v5 format will be put under the spotlight. I've always felt that the format will eventually be objectively selected as the problem of the game and these next few months will tell us for sure
ARES! CHANGE MY BALANCE PHILOSOPHY, AND MY LIFE IS YOURS.
Careful what you wish for *headshots are now easier*
Lol, thank you for reminding me how memeable gow1-3 is
I love that 😂
ZEUS IS THIS HOW YOU BALANCE ME COWARD!!
MY RANK* IS YOURS
new balance change: we've removed one tank and changed it to 4v4
now rein has shield with a size of Brigitte non-ult, d.va matrix will consume damage only in 2 meters in front of her and sigma shield is Symmetra old one.
At least the format would be balanced again 😂
What about 5v5 but with 5 tanks, 0 dps and 0 support.
@@BananaWasTakenthat would be the dream
Change the name from Overwatch to call of duty & you got yourself the next counter strike killer
Flats summed up OW2 perfectly. They created a problem and then created a new problem to fix their problems. 😂
You know, i wouldnt mind havung "defence" as a role come back, but it being used as the sheildless tank role. Gives us a second tank without giving us more sheilds.
From an OW1 interview when Jeffs team play tested team sizes smaller than 6v6
“The thing we didn’t like about those team sizes were you’re actually too important. Maybe you had an off day, suddenly your team hated you”
“6v6 was a magical number for us. It was a team size where if you had an off day you weren’t so important that the team was mad at you. You could still win with someone that wasn’t performing well.”
- Jeff Kaplan
Shocking. And yet here we are with 5v5 where dps and supports have another person who could in theory pick up the slack. And a single Tank where... if the tank isnt that great, well you just fucking lose the game.
Jeff had the right idea sad that he got driven away
That’s because someone competent was leading the team not the dipshit Arron.
@@Somtaaw7heck no. You ended up getting steam roll.
To the point you couldn't get out of the spawn room.
Just because the other Tank suck or rage quit.
Core memory for me was when I played my first masters game, I was the only diamond in the match (never reached masters ever) and I had to try my absolute hardest just to barely keep up with everybody and I felt like the weakest link the entire match but we freaking won. Jeff was absolutely right in my opinion, that win was so satisfying but in ow2 I dont find satisfaction from close wins just stress and misery
As a Ramattra main, his shield is most of the time useless like Flats says. It made me angry that he was right, but I realize that my shield either gets busted instantly or it drops because the enemy team knows to wait for 4 seconds before spamming every cool down.
is using it with nemisis not useful?
@@lunarro7 even then it's just not enough in the current state of the game. Too much burst damage and Ramattra with block will get overrun. Once Nemesis is over he just flops
That shield lives longer than the tank
no it's to buy u time til Nemesis comes back off cd or u have no defense @@lunarro7
I've used it mostly as a 4 second move the point of focus or give my supports 2 seconds to get me back to better health. It's not a main shield like any of the other shielders, it just a quick get yer feet under you again sorta skill
"the tank role is in a tough spot right now and has been since -Season 8- Overwatch 2 Launch" they mean
absolutely not true. Tank was great for a few seasons post-launch
Kind of, but since the DPS passive addition and the hitbox changes, it's been ROUGH rough.
@@Shzl47 it was great in terms off doing its job, but the problem has never been that tank can't do it's job, The issue is that so much nuance and expression has been removed from the role as a whole. Tank players are a particular kind of player and they don't want the same things a dps want, or a support.
@Shzl47 Yes true, tank "being great" came at the cost of the supports. Then, supports had to be over buffed, making dps and tank feel useless. Dps now has a new passive that makes the other roles feel useless. Tank felt "great" because being the raid boss was the new thing, and people hadn't yet seen the problems with having a lopsided number of players between the 3 roles.
I'd say at low ranks, it is since Overwatch 1. Practically never had fun on Tank, and most of the time it was because I had no clue where my team was and I was just hoping they were behind me, but usually they were all over the map trying to solo it.
Role-wide passives honestly just feel like a band aid fix that doesn’t have that much thought put into it.
particularly the new damage passive and the new tank passive. super lazy
Yeah, in no world should Hanzo and Tracer have the same passive, ever
I've been saying this for over a year at this point. Although it may be more difficult to balance, I personally think each hero should have their own passive unique to that hero. I don't mean some stupid "reload speed increased" I mean something that is legitimately unique to THAT specific hero and their fantasy, not some blanket boring passive that could just be copy-pasted into any other hero in the same role. Things such as: What if Reinhardt when his shield breaks, gains slightly increased movement speed and damage (or damage reduction)? This would allow Rein to be a bit more proactive and not just feel like you need to play super defensive when his shield goes down. I don't know, maybe its a pipe dream, but it would for sure make each hero feel much more unique (like Blizzard seems to want with this statement they just released) and allow for much better ways to address the unique weaknesses each hero may have, without making a blanket change that may make another hero of their same role stupid broken.
Edit: I'm not sure if Flats has thought about this kind of change or spoken about it, but I'd be interested in seeing his take on changes like this. I won't be offended obviously, discussion like this is what makes changes happen, and having opposing ideas or opinions is always a good thing when used in a healthy, noncombative way.
"tank knockback reduction" *ball gets yeeted across the map*
@@cagxplays9602lol ball gets shafted by the tank passive twice
I wanna start playing tank so bad but it is a tough role, and after a long day of work/gym I don’t feel like hearing “Tank Diff, Sleepy trash”
Edit: just played 4 games as a tank, I will never say tank diff again.
feel u
If you can’t play tank in the game, keep working out and play the tank irl
@@pizzario4986I thought you are about to make a dick-ish comment, but you’re a real one…
@@killervee3290 Hey, I’m just saying that at least you’ll be winning at staying fit and healthy 🫡
Atleast if you win, you can feel good about having disproved them😂😅
Crazy idea here. What if we added a second tank slot to the team!?
Tanks need to be tankier? If I wasn't convinced before that the devs are smoking something, I am now. Tanks are already brutal to play against as DPS and support. You want to make them even tankier? How about going back to 6v6 -- there was nothing wrong with that format, it was WAY more fun with creative tank synergies, took IMMENSE pressure off from solo tanking, and there was still 1v1 potential with the entire roster. I've never seen a massive downgrade like OW2 has been. Definitely worth the $0 price tag. If your tank is diffed even a bit, like a hog getting anti'd by an ana, it's basically GG next because you literally CANNOT fight a giga tank!
Even reading this comments section, everyone has been asking for 6v6, but the devs will do anything but acknowledge their mistake because it would mean OW2 is literally no different than OW1, and that's FINE, it was BETTER!
Im just waiting for rivals to come out cause these seasons are getting worse and worse don't know if its just my games but it hasn't felt fun whether I win or lose
I feel like the last ssn was kinda mixed but I enjoyed it this season just aint hitting even when I go dmg it feels like it just gets worse
I play one warm up qp game and realize the game will never be what I want it to be so I just log off
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 yeahh I started playing elden ring so by the time I'm through with that and rivals hopefully overwatch can hit like it used to but the overall meta is just gross I don't think 6v6 is the answer either going against orisa and hog just for them to go mauga when they start losing will make it anymore fun tbh... And what happened to hero bans.. probably where pve is🫠
It’s kinda funny we went to 5v5 cos of tank balance and now tank is worse than before
Maybe it's because balance was the problem not the format
No, they went to 5v5 to distract from the fact that the actual reason for OW2 was more exploitive micro transactions. 5v5 was their way of saying "look it's a completely new game, were totally not just doing this to match every other F2P format like fortnite"
@@mattiej2311 needs to be the top comment
Welp, swaping ow1 to ow2, they nerfed all the mittigation habilities, thats the only problem with tanks right now, cuz they cant tank a shit, and with season 9 projectiles, tanks now die faster cuz is so hard to miss a shoot
@@mattiej2311Idk why you and others decide to be flat earther adjacent about this subject, the reason they switched was because tank queue times in ow1 were abysmal so they cut it to 1 tank. Thats not an opinion that’s just the actual truth LOL
6v6 will allow the tank gameplay to not feel as shitty. Even if we take out balance issues and potential queue time issues, I had infinitely more fun with 2 tanks than with 1.
Blizzard is just scared of double shield meta again
One issue is that with a solo tank its super easy and effective to throw discord and ana nade on them 24/7, hence why Kiri is needed every game to cleanse it. 5v5 has pretty much screwed tank and support balance.
6v6 also screwed dps I'm favor of tank and support. It isn't a format issue it's a balance issue. The devs don't know how to balance 5v5 or 6v6
@@cpenner7086 the ratio of changes required to make each format work is at least ten to one. Meaning 5v5 requires ten changes for every one in 6v6 to achieve the same balance. This game would be a lot further and less problematic if they stuck to 6v6.
@@ZzsiegzZ What are you basing this off of? You're just assuming that bringing back 6v6 will have fewer issues. If you're basing off of previous balance changes and the previous dev team, then you're forgetting that we have new characters like Mauga and Kiriko that completely take over a meta.
@@BeastiezCyZokay? Nerf cardiac for Maui, and give Kiri less headshot damage on her kunai
@@BeastiezCyZit doesn’t fix the meta issues. It should hopefully help with countering issues. (Since the 2nd tank can cover the other tank’s weaknesses).
Hey Blizzard. I dare you to revert Rein’s shield back to 2000.
That probably won’t do anything
@@tiggle5485then let him have it he’s all ready just shielding 75% of the time
@@tiggle5485yup, it's usually them just walking at you and past it and a DPS getting the flank that fucks you, or you are full health fire strike and just drop dead before shield comes back up, feel so tanky in those moments
Or implement some variation of buffing Rein’s speed
Make his hammer convert into a cannon like Jace from League of Legends. Feels like they wanted every hero to have reliable projectiles but Rein doesn't have one. Firestrike is too slow.
1:30 "since season 8"
Try "since we added the number 2 at the end of the game's name".
They talked about bigger communication in the beginning of ow2 and every now and they say they're gonna do more of it, but every time they stop for some time it's like a brand new crisis
They talked about more communication while banning all questions about 6v6 from interviews despite lots of players wanting to talk about it
Yeah, only when the community is really mad they relaese a general response. Such an awful team.
Just like an abusive relationship
You mean they finally are starting to realize people are quitting the role
Yeah bro, iv been a tank main in OW1 and OW2 up untill now. I cant stand tanking now so I dps
@@mavg4271 I'm exactly the same now. I want desperately to enjoy tank again, but its almost always the same result. Been a DPS main the last two seasons and the game's been so much more fun. I played for 12 hours straight the other day in all role and ONLY, and I mean ONLY got tank. And when I LFG, it's usually the tank we're missing at 4/5.
Crawl walk run at it's finest. And Blizzard can never stop crawling.
@mavg4271 I was a main tank main in OW1 but after like 3 season in OW2, I largely played the game less and less and went to dps ans support
@@mavg4271 Personally became a DPS main a few months after OW2 came out, after people learned from content creators how to counter swap on tank.
It's almost like there's supposed to be 2 tanks. Wild
I never understood why instead of removing an entire player slot, they couldn't just half shield hp or whatever amount felt good
The problem was never the shields it has been always the abilities behind those shields sigma should have never had a grasp that if u shot he gets more hp orisa as well should have never had a shield and a fortify that makes her immune to everything even headshots and even if u were able to cut through all these abilities there was bap immortality with his AOE healing and im not going to talk about brig because I think it is obvious why and even when people weren’t running bap brig and they were playing moira lucio nothing would die because moira was insanely powerful in terms of healing she can build an entire ult in matter pf seconds and u were literally at the mercy of ur moira to get her ult faster than the enemy moira so u can engage early and win the fight it was awful for everyone
I used to hop on twitch or youtube and watch content creators based on their specific hero. I watched Arrge for Hanzo. I watched Flats for Rein. I watched Bogur for Winston. I watched ML7 for Ana. I watched Fitzy for Sombra. I watched Vulture/Sewer Rat for Junk. I watched Emongg for Dva. I watched Frogger for Lucio. I watched BastionMain for Bastion. I watched Kenzo for Widowmaker...the list goes on. If players and especially streamers can't play a hero to its limits doing the coolest things then I think inspiration to play the game dwindles. There needs to be conversation around "one-tricks" and we need to stop shaming the term. I think they are the most grossly misrepresented majority in OW2. Most of us have that one hero that "clicked" for us and that hero has brought us back time and time again. If a hero can't stand out from the rest then how is that a hero? When all the streamers, the games main marketing engine, are struggling to play heroes they enjoy this game is in a bad place.
amen
I'm a hog 1 trick. He speaks to me.
Counterpoint. We argue against 1 tricks. We like 5 tricks, 1 tank, 2 dps, 2 support. They understand each role, and their qualms, and they are able to play a different hero if their main on dps or support is picked.
@user-yw5dm4hd8k your counterpoint is like saying: "How about instead of the ocean, we give you this little pool of water?" Counterpicking is so shallow.
so when this doesn't work can they actually start considering 6v6 cuz its getting kinda embarrassing honestly
How about this for a passive: its just 6v6 again. We get back our stolen 2nd tank.
@@adventuroushermit2590 haha that's so funny
I think SOME tanks don't feel tanky while others legit never die until their whole team falls. Problem is many of these tanks were never meant to be the only tank. They're inherent design was for 6v6 and they've now spent 2 years trying to shoehorn them into 5v5. What's the answer? I don't know but buffing anything is not the way to go. I think all roles need to be nerfed.
there is no way to balance the tank role this whole game was made and designed around 6v6. the only thing that's going to happen is tank is eventually just got to be stupid strong and than everyone else is going to be pissed its either go back to 6v6 or scrap this game and start over
You mean when tanks were strong in ow1 with 6v6? Format is NOT the issue. Balancing is PERIOD
@@cpenner7086 Formatting is quite literally the issue. Most of the tanks in the game and the entire role was based on having 2 of them. Balance changes won't change that. The entire role would have to be revamped for it to work properly.
@@cpenner7086 they were weaker than they are now pleb who never played ow1
Yup, they can't balance a fundamentally unbalanced format. Being the solo focus of a whole teams lineup of cooldowns will never feel good. The role will either be oppressive or just not feel impactfull for that reason.
Right. It’s proof enough that this new team 4 that’s way better at the old one have failed to make a good game. Yet the old trash team 4 managed to have points in time where the game was fun and OW1 in any state of balance always had a magic
I hope Blizzard doesn't just change numbers to try to make tank playable.
All they've done for the past 10 seasons, it's that or give tank another universal passive that is either useless on half the tanks or makes the tank just boring to face
Aside from some reworks of course, reworking tanks to fit a format that the game wasn't designed to be played in
@kpkazan exactly there's just too much to deal with as 1 tank all the CC all the damage its too much for just one tank unless both supports are dumping heals into them and I don't think that's a good sign.
@@kpkazan yeah its BS how a character like Wrecking Ball or Lucio just can't use their abilities against tank at all. like sure boop immunity makes the experience more tolerable for the tank player but it doesnt make it more unique and fun, in fact it makes it far less unique or fun if the interaction is muted there.
I hope the devs understand that the issue with Tanks isn’t just down to game mechanics, but social play dynamics. As someone who mained Tank from OW1 beta thru late 2022, the idea of queueing as Tank is so distasteful to me now I haven’t in months just to avoid the toxicity that comes with Tanking on a losing team. It’s always your fault and everyone lets you know.
A lot of that is a direct result of the change from 6v6 to 5v5. There is only 1 tank, so they get all the blame for anything related to that role.
Good. Thats all u can say, no one get their hopes up
Hey Blizzard let’s talk about a 6v6 game mode and call it Overwatch classic.
I think what the balance team is starting to realize is that while yes, Overwatch needs some serious systemic tuning, in terms of actual fun and replayability, the heroes need to individually addressed.
On top of this, they seem to also be realizing that the balance shouldn't be completely focused on what enables the player on the hero, but what the hero disables against an opponent.
As flats describes, Reinhardt is a pretty fun hero to play as and against because it's very clear what you need to do, and if you do it well you either win or lose, based on both teams. With something like Hog, he just grabs you and ends you, regardless of how well the opponent plays. On hog it feels like the greatest thing on earth to get a hook to a kill, but the opponent feels like shit because unlike rein, no matter how well you play, if you get hooked, you die. Orisa and Mauga go into a similar boat: If you can't kill Orisa or if they spear you, you just die, if you can't kill or anti Mauga he just kills you. They're not fun to play against because they disable other heroes.
If you think of other "fun" tanks, you'll realize that they're fun not because of how they play, but how the opponent plays against them.
Junkerqueen is a fast and bulky threat, weaving in a battle looking to get healing and eliminate a pick. If she attacks you, you can respond properly and actually push her out, or sacrifice a teammate to escape since she can't punish multiple targets or a single bulky target like Orisa or Mauga does. You regroup, recover, counter her and push forward or die trying.
Rammatra shifts between poke and brawl, and instead of being an ever-present threat like the Terrible Trio (which I shall call Orisa, Mauga, Roadhog from here on out), has moments where you need to respond to the changes in playstyle, whether it's pushing forward when his punch-punch form is down, or backing up when it's up. It's a reactive hero to play against and makes the battle much more fun when it's about skill and knowledge rather than just numbers and AAAAAAA-
TLDR: I can cite the other "fun" tanks, but if you haven't gotten my point, the tldr is that the OW Balance Team needs to realize that tanks HAVE to be treated like leaders now, and the way to balance "leaders" is to balance the way people react to them rather than just balancing the leaders themselves. If the leaders are having fun, then not only does it make the game overall more fun, but also reduces toxicity, as people are less willing to blame others and more willing to take responsibility.
Underrated comment
An addition to this: while there are definitely Tanks that suck to play against, Tank-buster DPS have been an issue in OW2 since launch. I'm glad Sojourn finally got her comeuppance for her dominance in high skill lobbies, but there are still a lot of dominant DPS who just melt Tanks. Still way too many instances where you're on cooldown and just get cc-ed to hell and die. That's not the Tank role's fault.
@@blooper5li I agree, but I also won’t blame the devs, since it’s simply the result of OW1 design coming into OW2 (and we all know that that transition is not entirely their fault).
Tank busters used to be a necessity in OW1, as otherwise the 2 tanks you’d face would run rampant in your team. However, with the way OW2 works, tank busters bust tanks too fast now.
You can also see in more modern DPS design (i.e. Venture) the shift away from “DPS do big damage”. Instead, more mobile heroes are being favored.
If I were the balance team, I would make it so that tank busters aren’t tank busters but shield busters (since it seems like single shield isn’t that bad to play against anymore). This would be stuff like making Sojourn’s left click wildly more inaccurate (would balance out her burst right click too) and Reaper’s spread to be way wider (maybe change his movement a bit more so that he survives way more).
My favorite thing about the creator patch recently is that it doesn’t favor “survival” like the current overwatch team have been doing (the healing passives, the extra health). Instead it puts an emphasis on “the ability to escape when necessary” or movement.
The cycle of 5v5
Tanks feel like shit --> "Don't worry, we hear hear you™" --> Tank hp increased and some shit done with role passives -> tanks still feel shit
Just give us 6v6. You’re being ridiculous
Welp raise a glass for ov3
Fr. That's all tf they have to do and balancing would be way easier
Watching everyone still complain about wanting 6v6 and knowing it will never happen is hilarious lmao just let it go
I'm so glad to see people asking for this not being disliked into oblivion. I quit after trying 5v5 a few times. Bring Overwatch back.
@@hi-hi6up the only reason it would never happen is if everyone gives up like you
Tank doesnt need to be op to be fun. Dps and support need to NOT be op for tank to be fun. Tank isnt fun when cassidy is running around dealing insane damage and hitting you with a cc or when a kiriko somehow doesnt die despite making the dumbest mistake possible. Tank gets less fun the higher the rank because you have less and less power to do anything agqinsg these insanely unbalanced characters being played skillfully.
To add to this ults well used/placed getting cancelled by a single cd isn’t fun negating big plays with one cd isn’t fun *cough kiri* even tho suzu can’t cleanse shatter anymore it can prevent pretty much every other ult if timed correctly even I can time it correctly for almost every ult and I’m diamond
Yeah this logic would be amazing in OW1 with 6v6 but now any change you make to any role hurts the other ones.
If you implement this for the dos and support, tanks will be fun and powerful but the other roles suffer
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 the other roles are also suffering because of how heinously op some of the characters are. Nobody enjoys getting 2 tapped by Cass or getting your kill ripped away by suzu
@@muzankibutsuji8919 So nobody is winning because not every role is having fun
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 nah I have fun playing cass that's for sure
the devs need to understand they cant balance tanks since theres only 1 tank you cant balance the power between all roles when there one role that only has 1 person doing it
They understand it fine. Something higher up is making it a hard rule that their not allowed to revert. Probably because it'll cause a shit storm on par with making the fact pve was canceled official. That was probably the best time to do it so people would be confused on how to feel. But now it's too late. They don't because of pr alone. And will change anything else because their bosses simply won't hear a word of changing it
@@legojay14 All they have to do is look at Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky to see that fixing your game and giving players what they want overshadows any bad pr.
@@absolute-xero7502 Get corporate at Blizzard to understand that. The devs probably have a plan ready to go that'll fix a ton. But they still need approval to implement it. Especially with how mismanaged it must be with all the exposed sexual assaults and atmosphere of working there.
@legojay14 Yeah it sucks. I really thought things would change after Bobby Kock-stain left.
got a headache from playing against Pharah every game today on dps.... i cant wait for her to F A L L
I just wanna not have to counter swap every 5 seconds.
Need 2 tanks then. I don’t see any other way to avoid that
That doesn't happen
@@assimilater-quicktips You'll just see mirrors
@@bui3415 lucky you? It happens all the time
Haven't played overwatch as it has been negatively interacting with my mental health but this is just silly now I fully expect the devs to flop and cause some kind of major issue or power creep in one role or another good luck everyone.
“we’re buffing shields”
*laughs in sym*
I think it’s so crazy how they raved at how they struck gold with the original 6v6 and explained that it was bc you can pick up the slack of 1/6 of the team much easier than smaller group numbers. Then goes to make ow2 5v5…
It is never going to work with these game modes.
There is simply too much focus put on them.
At this rate, Flats is forced to play Overwatch only because it’s his career, he farms quick play all days and streamers probably are the last players that have patience to “wait and see”. No one gives shit about what developers intend to do , the things that they have done already are nothing inspiring ever, why do we look forward to things they haven’t done then.
Time is proving every 6v6 argument right but we’re the nostalgic ones. Alright 👍 let’s see how much farther 5v5 falls down the shit hole till y’all realize that 6v6 was the better FORMAT (I’m not saying it’s perfect I’m saying it’s better)
6v6 is just a better format to work off and innovate on. The balance and late stage hero design was the problem with OW 1. The format itself is the problem with OW 2.
Yeah, though I'm not holding my breath for them to bring back 6v6. The whole lack of response is ridiculous enough as is. No idea why they won't make a clear statement and say "guys, 6v6 is never going to come back." so people at least have a response to work with instead of them ignoring the discussion exists. I've decided to quit the game because even though I'm not a tank player (supp/dps main), I'm not having fun with 5v5 and can't get used to it even after over a hundred hours of giving it my best try to like it. I do think 6v6 is the better format, but if they've decided to hold on to 5v5, then I'll accept that and play other games.
yall should just play open que, 2 tanks 2 healers and 1 dps is much more fun
Can you link the articles you read from?
Sounds like hes tired of the false hope
U remember u had another tank and tank players had their own community because u kno what the role takes and needs synergy bring back 6v6 the game is going down
To talk about balance patches, they have to get an okay from both Microsoft and Sony before they can patch those versions. So that’s why it takes so long. Since crossplay has been added, all versions need to be on the same build of the game. If there’s a really long wait before an emergency patch or something, this is probably the reason.
I feel like tank would feel so much better if they just reworked the tankbuster heros. The enemy tank counterswapping you constantly wouldn't feel so crap. Like playing winston into hog? Yeah, it kinda sucks but you could do it. Playing Winston into hog reaper bastion? Just log off.
I feel this. Not only do you have to deal with 90% of the cc in the game as tank, but you also have to play counterwatch much more than any one else on your team. If you refuse to play counterwatch, you're almost throwing. It's good for the game to have counters, but it sucks that it's stacked so heavily on one role. I wish we could try a mode that limited you to one character switch per game, so you'd actually have to be strategic about it.
make tanks do less damage to other tanks, remove sombra, rework bastion, easy fix.
Tanks = power creep.
This is actually getting ridiculous.
Exactly, Tanks are already brutally strong in 1v1 scenarios. Its just that Everyone know's in 5v5 the quickest way to win is to shoot the tank.
@@joegarrison5911to be fair, Why should a tank be weak in a 1v1? If a squishy 1v1s a tank, the squishy should lose. Am I wrong for thinking that should be the norm?
Only if there was a format that had 2 tanks that if they missplayed were killable by the majority of dps unlike this oppressive yet unfun solo tank.
Hey, anything but 6v6 right?
@johnperez822 No that's of course how it should be, the problem is trying to fix the 5v5 issue by just pumping numbers to the moon. Eventually you get DBD monsters, which were starting to see.
Fix Role queue.
6 roles.
Shield Tank, Off-Tank, close range DPS, Distance DPS, Main Healer, Flex Support.
6 queues. No more double shield. No more double sniper. No more brig/zen. No more tracer/genji/sombra at the same time.
Feel like queues would be stupid long having it like that and people already bring up queue times at every juncture
Wouldn't hurt to try it over a weekend though, like the entire point of quickplay hacked is to try stuff like this
My main issue would be do we consider tanks like ramattra a shield tank or a tank with a shield?
Someone like Sigma is a shield tank but I wouldn't call Ram a shield tank
The fact thats its not a joke and someone actually liked ur msg is dumb
Tanking will never feel good in a 5v5 format, its always gonna be counter swapping just to get the upperhand against your tank oponent. Tank has the least amount of value, yet they matter the most, if you misplay and die its gg, if you dont play it perfect with no mistakes you lose.
Can the community arrange a massive community vote for bringing back 6v6 and maybe if major youtubers got behind the vote we could at least get some more attention?
As a Rein main i do not care and am not relieved that they will buff him. He (and most of the other tanks, but rein specifically) are just doomed fundamentally because theres just no off tank to relieve pressure.
6v6 can’t come back because of queue times combined with needing to rework every single character for a 6v6 format. Not only that but most major TH-camrs don’t care for 6v6 vs 5v5.
We don't need tankier tanks.... we need less powerful tanks
And 2 of them.
Lets see how long it takes before the devs realise you can't fix tank in 5v5
I want a quick play hacked that will be "ethical overwatch" so only the heroes which the community deems ethical
literally just 5v5 reinhardt