Do you use references? If so, when and how? ►🎚Mixing Breakthroughs: mixingbreakthroughs.com ►🎛Compression Breakthroughs: compressionbreakthroughs.com ►🎧 EQ Breakthroughs: EQBreakthroughs.com ►🔊Mastering Demystified: MasteringDemystified.com ►✅Become a channel member here: th-cam.com/channels/qEKv3KIZoZrjv2LymD3iMg.htmljoin
One way in which I have grown as a musician and have applied to what I do in my mixes is: I am a guitar player (I love metal... everything metal) I listen to my favorite guitar albums and without putting too much (any really) thought into my playing, I'll try and replicate the rhythm style of my favorite guitarists but not try to figure out the notes. I got to a point where I'd just try and Invision what it might actually look like, not exactly but what they are doing and pick out parts or riffs that I think is neat and got to such a stupid point where it was almost cartoon like version, serious but like someone who is not a musician but doing a cartoon that doesn't really know what the actual guitar parts would look like and they are drawing it how they think it might sound. And then I work and work and work on it over and over again until by the time I look back at where I started looks like a completely different planet. I do the same with mixes. I have my favorite mix engineers too. I don't memorize frequencies or anything technical like that but I have a mental snippet of what I love about how drums sound (because that's where I start and love working on drums), I think about the style of the drums that are being played and the spirit of the music and allow it to take its own shape, sometimes the bands ive worked with, I listen to the music that they love and have inspired them and maybe they have a particular style they would like to emulate but at the same time make their own. I've been fairly successful in that way. If you listen to a lot of music, it has its own life and if....IF you can be still enough you can see (hear) it as it take on its own type of life and become an entity all of its own...sounds like some hippy shit I know. But that's how Id describe my process. I don't know if anyone else does that but fuck what other people think
The most poignant take-away fro me was your short discussion on trying to match the TEMPO of the reference to what you are working on; I had never heard that before and find it a very useful tip indeed.
Great, point about selecting references that may not be your favorite song or even your genre, but which sound great. I’m trying to apply that idea more.
I do indeed think it would be useful to hear what your favorite reference mixes are, why you chose them, what you specifically listen for, et al … THANK YOU
He’s one of my top 3 favorite mastering engineers of all time. I’m constantly referencing against his best work to make sure my work is in that league. I’ve just learned so much by studying records he’s mastered. -Justin
He's a good one! I've interviewed him. Wild character that guy :-) The two other guys on my top three list are Greg Calbi for sonics along with Ludwig, and my own mentor, Joe Lambert. But Howie has mastered a huge proportion of my favorite records of all time.... even when they're not my favorite "sounding" records of all time. Howie has such a good sense for getting the right vibe and attitude for a record. I'd put him in my top 5, easy! If I wasn't so personally biased in favor of Joe maybe he'd be in the top 3! I'd have to think about it. But he has one of the coolest catalogs in history. -Justin
I’ve always done exactly what you suggest doing, for YEARS. One album I’ve been playing for 40 years, another, 25 years. And I know every millisecond of my references on every system I’ve ever come in contact and have played to death in my space. But my mixes still sound like absolute shit. Boards of Canada - Music Has the Right to Children Propaganda - A Secret Wish Fleetwood Mac - Rumours Barbra Streisand Barry Gibb - Guilty Level 42 - Pursuit of Accidents Those three have perfect recordings in my opin. And I love the space on those releases. The clarity, and placement of sounds.
Sorry to hear that! What do you think is holding you back? Is it a lack of experience? A lack of having a system? If you want to join the members section we have regular mix feedback sessions where we can help you discover he low hanging fruit for you and get concrete advice on what to do from here to improve. Very best, Justin
Yes, good one! For years, the DM album Ultra was my sonic reference. That's post-Alan Wilder, so I'm not sure who recorded or produced it, but it sounds amazing.
Instead of referencing with a tool that show me in real time the difference between my song and the reference track I prefer a simple way. I use a matchEQ, I analyze my song with several reference tracks. Sometimes I use a reference track very different than my song. If I see that my song has too much low end, mid low etc in several references, that means I exagerated in that area and so I cut those frequencies. As for stereo field I use my ears
How do you know when you have a good pro source?? For example you might dial in a guitar sound on an amp and it sounds good to your ears but how do you know if it truly is a good pro sounding guitar sound that will work in a pro mix? Do you use a reference for every instrument?
This is what using references to learn your environment is all about. When you know what "good" sounds like in your space, you will have a much easier time answering this question. You may occasionally need to refresh your ears throughout the day to remind yourself of what "good" sounds like in your room. In the beginning, sure, doing a lot of direct AB comparison and attempts at copycatting can help you learn faster. But hopefully, you can abandon doing too much of it as your confidence grows. -Justin
What about "What makes this mix work"? A little more original of a title than using the word 'great,' like Beato. You're welcome to use it should you choose, I need no credit. I'm a little confused though, it sounds like you are suggesting using the mix reference in the Mastering phase, but are you using reference tracks during the mixing or sound engineering (putting the shiny post-production tricks on everything post mixdown before master, I mean) phases? If using during the mix, do you adjust your volume when referencing finished tracks since they (the reference tracks) are mastered to full volume already? Thanks Justin.
You should generally be level matching when you reference, yes. ADPTR Audio's Metric AB tool is great for this. In the first part of the video I talk about referencing in mastering. AS it goes on, we begin to talk about referencing in mixing and recording, and how it is different. Short answer is that in mixing it's more about consulting other recordings determine how they solved certain problems or questions about relative levels, brightness or low end between specific elements, only occasionally consulting references when you run into problems. For recording, it's more about reminded yourself periodically of what "good" sounds like in your space. For the more detailed answer, finish the whole episode! :-) -Justin
Hey Justin, do you finally put jason in the 2024 lineup? Jason uses his neuman and his equipment to do it anywhere, all portable. He records, mixes and masters and produces incredible to see!!
I have a ton of audio examples in the DAW of this of listening in the members section, and in the mix breakdowns playlist here: th-cam.com/play/PL3yghKGBjggRR_iZ0K6m4qMYLYUQ6UV-e.html Next week (probably) I’ll open my 5 favorite references in the DAW. -Justin
If you use flat, low-distortion speakers, then reference mixes become unnecessary, particularly for the mixing phase. While you can still draw ideas and inspiration from other music, if you're mixing on speakers like the Kii Threes, you can seamlessly mix directly into them, ensuring your mixes translate effectively across all platforms. The necessity to reference other tracks for achieving a balanced mix arises only when your speakers are subpar.
Kii make great speakers! But I’m not so sure they remove the need for any referencing. You still have to learn them, you still have to tune yourself every day, and the room is an even more important part of the monitoring equation than the speakers. Even if you had perfectly flat monitors and room (which is impossible), you’d still have to learn them. “Flat” is not what we are used to hearing, and so we have to learn even that, and we have to occasionally refresh and refine ourselves even once we’ve learned them. For instance: How bright you like to hear things will vary depending on how early or late in the day it is, and how tired you are, and how much caffeine you’ve had. So even if your monitoring is flat, you’re not! :-) And even once we’ve done that, we have to think about what the right balance and tonal decides to make are. Great monitoring is a big help! But it doesn’t give us taste. References help with that too. They help us develop our tastes, and understand the norms of taste in a given genre, whether we want to adhere to them or abandon them. Deeply understanding what great records sound like on your system!) is a key component in making great sounding records yourself. I hope some of that makes sense! -Justin
@@SonicScoop I disagree. You want your music to sound the best on the best speakers, so the solution obviously is to mix on the best speakers. Additionally, you want your mix to sound great when played loudly in a very large space. This is why professional studios mix and master in large studios with large speakers positioned in the far field. The large space helps simulate an anechoic environment, which is how speakers are measured. This is because the sound waves travel too far to cancel each other out. However, not everyone has that luxury, so speaker manufacturers have designed speakers like the Kii's that take the room out of the equation thanks to their cardioid design. This is what Jacob Collier has stated: if his mix sounds great on the Kii's, he knows it'll sound great everywhere else. Reference mixes are only for amateurs who cannot or will not invest in a proper solution, which is to get a pair of speakers that play flat from 20Hz up to 20kHz. They might get you 80% there, but the last 20% is what separates the men from the boys, so to speak.
That's just how I am! If you like the information, do what I do and listen at 2x speed! :-) This is my preferred format, so it's what I do myself. I also don't have 40 extra hours to formally script and edit every video for short attention spans in exchange for the peanuts TH-cam pays, like some of the youngins' do! I save the tight scripting and editing for courses. On TH-cam, I do livestreams, and I try to exhaustively cover the topic. That's my niche. IMHO, the 1-5 minute videos most people do don't actually help much... and the tightly edited 15 minute videos aren't sustainable to make unless they are exclusively sponsored by some outside brand with products to sell. (They take 10x longer, or more, to make.) -Justin
I was personally hoping to see some practical workflow examples at each stage but I think Justin’s approach is more of a podcast/discussion. I’m definitely looking forward to him cracking open his 5 favorite references. I think that would be super valuable.
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Do you use references? If so, when and how?
►🎚Mixing Breakthroughs: mixingbreakthroughs.com
►🎛Compression Breakthroughs: compressionbreakthroughs.com
►🎧 EQ Breakthroughs: EQBreakthroughs.com
►🔊Mastering Demystified: MasteringDemystified.com
►✅Become a channel member here: th-cam.com/channels/qEKv3KIZoZrjv2LymD3iMg.htmljoin
One way in which I have grown as a musician and have applied to what I do in my mixes is: I am a guitar player (I love metal... everything metal) I listen to my favorite guitar albums and without putting too much (any really) thought into my playing, I'll try and replicate the rhythm style of my favorite guitarists but not try to figure out the notes. I got to a point where I'd just try and Invision what it might actually look like, not exactly but what they are doing and pick out parts or riffs that I think is neat and got to such a stupid point where it was almost cartoon like version, serious but like someone who is not a musician but doing a cartoon that doesn't really know what the actual guitar parts would look like and they are drawing it how they think it might sound. And then I work and work and work on it over and over again until by the time I look back at where I started looks like a completely different planet. I do the same with mixes. I have my favorite mix engineers too. I don't memorize frequencies or anything technical like that but I have a mental snippet of what I love about how drums sound (because that's where I start and love working on drums), I think about the style of the drums that are being played and the spirit of the music and allow it to take its own shape, sometimes the bands ive worked with, I listen to the music that they love and have inspired them and maybe they have a particular style they would like to emulate but at the same time make their own. I've been fairly successful in that way. If you listen to a lot of music, it has its own life and if....IF you can be still enough you can see (hear) it as it take on its own type of life and become an entity all of its own...sounds like some hippy shit I know. But that's how Id describe my process. I don't know if anyone else does that but fuck what other people think
Yes please would love to hear your references and what aspects you're utilizing
The most poignant take-away fro me was your short discussion on trying to match the TEMPO of the reference to what you are working on; I had never heard that before and find it a very useful tip indeed.
Awesome to hear! Yes, that one is huge. Makes a big difference.
-Justin
The emphasis on intention is very helpful. That distinction between spiritual and sonic references is very useful.
Yes on the example reference video!
Great, point about selecting references that may not be your favorite song or even your genre, but which sound great. I’m trying to apply that idea more.
You mentioned doing an episode with your specific references and how you use them. That would be great!
This was so amazingly informative! 🙌🏽 THANK YOU for all that you do (for us)! 👊🏽
I do indeed think it would be useful to hear what your favorite reference mixes are, why you chose them, what you specifically listen for, et al … THANK YOU
I'll do this one soon!
-Justin
I had a huge struggle doing this at first and now I feel like I understand what I need to do and not just add meaningless stuff
Awesome to hear!
-Justin
This is what we needed Justin. Blessings man
Awesome to hear, thanks Rich!
-Justin
I never even thought of quite a few of these points before! Especially sounding like someone else's record. Thanks for the information!!
Good and important content in this video, thank you! I would love to learn what you choose as your five great reference materials.
I plan to do that soon. Maybe even this week :-)
-Justin
Good call about Odelay being a well mastered gem. That Ludwig fella had some skills.
He’s one of my top 3 favorite mastering engineers of all time. I’m constantly referencing against his best work to make sure my work is in that league. I’ve just learned so much by studying records he’s mastered.
-Justin
@@SonicScoop Howie Weinberg, too. Listening to some Sonic Youth "Dirty" today.
He's a good one! I've interviewed him. Wild character that guy :-)
The two other guys on my top three list are Greg Calbi for sonics along with Ludwig, and my own mentor, Joe Lambert.
But Howie has mastered a huge proportion of my favorite records of all time.... even when they're not my favorite "sounding" records of all time.
Howie has such a good sense for getting the right vibe and attitude for a record. I'd put him in my top 5, easy!
If I wasn't so personally biased in favor of Joe maybe he'd be in the top 3! I'd have to think about it. But he has one of the coolest catalogs in history.
-Justin
I’ve always done exactly what you suggest doing, for YEARS. One album I’ve been playing for 40 years, another, 25 years. And I know every millisecond of my references on every system I’ve ever come in contact and have played to death in my space. But my mixes still sound like absolute shit.
Boards of Canada - Music Has the Right to Children
Propaganda - A Secret Wish
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours
Barbra Streisand Barry Gibb - Guilty
Level 42 - Pursuit of Accidents
Those three have perfect recordings in my opin. And I love the space on those releases. The clarity, and placement of sounds.
Sorry to hear that! What do you think is holding you back? Is it a lack of experience? A lack of having a system?
If you want to join the members section we have regular mix feedback sessions where we can help you discover he low hanging fruit for you and get concrete advice on what to do from here to improve.
Very best,
Justin
Reference. Control Freak by Recoil (Alan Wilder)
Yes, good one! For years, the DM album Ultra was my sonic reference. That's post-Alan Wilder, so I'm not sure who recorded or produced it, but it sounds amazing.
Great episode! PLEEEEEASE do the episode with your personal sonic references!
You got it! I’ll do that one soon.
-Justin
Great talk👏
Instead of referencing with a tool that show me in real time the difference between my song and the reference track I prefer a simple way. I use a matchEQ, I analyze my song with several reference tracks. Sometimes I use a reference track very different than my song. If I see that my song has too much low end, mid low etc in several references, that means I exagerated in that area and so I cut those frequencies. As for stereo field I use my ears
How do you know when you have a good pro source?? For example you might dial in a guitar sound on an amp and it sounds good to your ears but how do you know if it truly is a good pro sounding guitar sound that will work in a pro mix? Do you use a reference for every instrument?
This is what using references to learn your environment is all about. When you know what "good" sounds like in your space, you will have a much easier time answering this question.
You may occasionally need to refresh your ears throughout the day to remind yourself of what "good" sounds like in your room.
In the beginning, sure, doing a lot of direct AB comparison and attempts at copycatting can help you learn faster. But hopefully, you can abandon doing too much of it as your confidence grows.
-Justin
Wish I caught it livestream!
Glad you could catch it one way or the other!
-Justin
Best example of a sonic vs. spiritual reference: Nickelback.
What about "What makes this mix work"? A little more original of a title than using the word 'great,' like Beato. You're welcome to use it should you choose, I need no credit.
I'm a little confused though, it sounds like you are suggesting using the mix reference in the Mastering phase, but are you using reference tracks during the mixing or sound engineering (putting the shiny post-production tricks on everything post mixdown before master, I mean) phases? If using during the mix, do you adjust your volume when referencing finished tracks since they (the reference tracks) are mastered to full volume already?
Thanks Justin.
You should generally be level matching when you reference, yes. ADPTR Audio's Metric AB tool is great for this.
In the first part of the video I talk about referencing in mastering. AS it goes on, we begin to talk about referencing in mixing and recording, and how it is different.
Short answer is that in mixing it's more about consulting other recordings determine how they solved certain problems or questions about relative levels, brightness or low end between specific elements, only occasionally consulting references when you run into problems.
For recording, it's more about reminded yourself periodically of what "good" sounds like in your space.
For the more detailed answer, finish the whole episode! :-)
-Justin
Pure gold
Hey Justin, do you finally put jason in the 2024 lineup? Jason uses his neuman and his equipment to do it anywhere, all portable. He records, mixes and masters and produces incredible to see!!
Working on it!
-Justin
Wiith DAW examples would really help.
I have a ton of audio examples in the DAW of this of listening in the members section, and in the mix breakdowns playlist here:
th-cam.com/play/PL3yghKGBjggRR_iZ0K6m4qMYLYUQ6UV-e.html
Next week (probably) I’ll open my 5 favorite references in the DAW.
-Justin
Bring on the Ref vid!
How is this information free?😭Thank you
Glad your are digging it! If the free stuff is this helpful imagine how useful the paid stuff probably is :-)
-Justin
yesss , I would like to see NBA Youngboy in 2024, it could be with the song Vette Motor or bring it on
Hell ye Beck
Dreams Fleetwood Mac
Radiohead - 'No Surprises' is probably my most used reference for checking out new monitors, headphones, earbuds, etc.
Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon
If you use flat, low-distortion speakers, then reference mixes become unnecessary, particularly for the mixing phase. While you can still draw ideas and inspiration from other music, if you're mixing on speakers like the Kii Threes, you can seamlessly mix directly into them, ensuring your mixes translate effectively across all platforms. The necessity to reference other tracks for achieving a balanced mix arises only when your speakers are subpar.
Kii make great speakers! But I’m not so sure they remove the need for any referencing. You still have to learn them, you still have to tune yourself every day, and the room is an even more important part of the monitoring equation than the speakers.
Even if you had perfectly flat monitors and room (which is impossible), you’d still have to learn them.
“Flat” is not what we are used to hearing, and so we have to learn even that, and we have to occasionally refresh and refine ourselves even once we’ve learned them.
For instance: How bright you like to hear things will vary depending on how early or late in the day it is, and how tired you are, and how much caffeine you’ve had. So even if your monitoring is flat, you’re not! :-)
And even once we’ve done that, we have to think about what the right balance and tonal decides to make are.
Great monitoring is a big help! But it doesn’t give us taste. References help with that too. They help us develop our tastes, and understand the norms of taste in a given genre, whether we want to adhere to them or abandon them.
Deeply understanding what great records sound like on your system!) is a key component in making great sounding records yourself.
I hope some of that makes sense!
-Justin
@@SonicScoop I disagree. You want your music to sound the best on the best speakers, so the solution obviously is to mix on the best speakers. Additionally, you want your mix to sound great when played loudly in a very large space. This is why professional studios mix and master in large studios with large speakers positioned in the far field. The large space helps simulate an anechoic environment, which is how speakers are measured. This is because the sound waves travel too far to cancel each other out. However, not everyone has that luxury, so speaker manufacturers have designed speakers like the Kii's that take the room out of the equation thanks to their cardioid design. This is what Jacob Collier has stated: if his mix sounds great on the Kii's, he knows it'll sound great everywhere else. Reference mixes are only for amateurs who cannot or will not invest in a proper solution, which is to get a pair of speakers that play flat from 20Hz up to 20kHz. They might get you 80% there, but the last 20% is what separates the men from the boys, so to speak.
“Reference mixes are only for amateurs”. What are you smoking mate?
Seriously? You actually believe that last sentence? Do you by any chance own a pair of Kii’s?
You definitely know your craft but please, your videos are overly verbose, make it briefly to be more effective please, good luck:)
That's just how I am!
If you like the information, do what I do and listen at 2x speed! :-) This is my preferred format, so it's what I do myself.
I also don't have 40 extra hours to formally script and edit every video for short attention spans in exchange for the peanuts TH-cam pays, like some of the youngins' do!
I save the tight scripting and editing for courses.
On TH-cam, I do livestreams, and I try to exhaustively cover the topic. That's my niche.
IMHO, the 1-5 minute videos most people do don't actually help much... and the tightly edited 15 minute videos aren't sustainable to make unless they are exclusively sponsored by some outside brand with products to sell.
(They take 10x longer, or more, to make.)
-Justin
The phrase "overly verbose" is verbose. 🤷
45 mins IS brief for the amount and value of info here
I was personally hoping to see some practical workflow examples at each stage but I think Justin’s approach is more of a podcast/discussion. I’m definitely looking forward to him cracking open his 5 favorite references. I think that would be super valuable.
Until TH-cam flags and silences them