Professor Block hits on the great weakness of economics as a discipline: the emphasis on mathematical analysis over a fundamental understanding of the forces at work in the real world. Earlier generations of economists and before them the political economists brought attention to issues related to fundamental societal organization. The ground covered by Adam Smith in "The Wealth of Nations" is, in modern terms, interdisciplinary. Regardless of what discipline one pursues in connection with an advance degree, a thorough study of political economy provides a sound base of knowledge from which to specialize, if desired.
It was an excellent intelligent debate and both speakers made very important points. The question i think you're left with is: is the ethical system Dr. north puts forward GOOD by the criteria of Misesian or Rothbardian ethics. Is it practical, productive, good, happy, remunerative, to enter the libertarian tradition outside academia once you accept Dr. Norths characterisation of it. Mises may make the utilitarian argument that i think Walter Would be forced to make if he had accepted North's moral criticism of academia; which is ARE THE MEANS FIT TO ACHIEVE THE ENDS. And people shouldn't be confused about what they're doing and why we're here. Everything people do in the libertarian tradition OUGHT to be toward the end of establishing a free society. Academia obviously stands out to Dr. Block as the foremost means of making a mark in the libertarian tradition, but it IS also a means toward other goods like personal material wealth. Because the debate was focused on academia Block focused on Rothbard and Mises. But he also mentioned Hazlitt, and Lew Rockwell two people who have made incredible contributions without a phd. Block and North both emphasised that whatever choices people make they should be realistic in their expectations. Walter made the point that a phd has value because it accredits people academic respect, and followed that up by saying most of us are mediocre. But Doesn't Gary's point that "if you can't deliver the goods; get out of the market" trump that? There seem to be two fundamental points here that Walter brings up and both touch on the ethical systems Mises and Rothbard put forward. 1. Is it GOOD to get a phd as part of your contribution to the libertarian tradition and the progress toward a free society? 2. Is it GOOD to get a phd as part of your own personal ethical idea of the good life? (It didn't seem to hurt Hazlitt. But someone like Tom Woods may have needed a phd because, like many people, we have ideas from childhood we need to see through). And both of these questions can be answered by referencing a natural law idea of individual liberty, OR a utilitarian argument of means. If you choose to accept North's moral position will you look back on a life lived out of socialist academia and 30 years from now say that it was an effective means of promoting liberty? Was sticking to that ethic productive? Did it make you personally happy?
Once one starts publishing good scholarship the doctorate is earned informally and tenure becomes irrelevant through the small business. North studied history, specifically American Colonial History. But he was also a serious economist, theologian, and social thinker of great consequence, if one reads his work. He published over 80 works and became a multimillionaire without tenure. His audience was very large if limited by his era and ideological laser-beam focus. He has educated thousands of successful young people like myself through the Ron Paul Curriculum, which he basically created. Tom Woods learned blogging and publishing from North, he pioneered the website influencer model. North had an exceptional career and influence, even without academia. When we consider influential modern thinkers, few are currently tenured academics. Jordan Peterson, though a centrist, is the most notable example.
"You have to learn keynesianism. You have to learn whats wrong with it" I agree with that statement from Walter. If you don't know the main theory out there you will get crushed. How can you critisize it if you don't know it? That North guy is pretty cool though.
*Cue "porque no los dos?" girl* Like Block says, the Ph.D. adds a credential behind what you say. Like North says, you don't HAVE to get the Ph.D. to make an impact for the movement and that good libertarian "foot soldiers" (for lack of a better term) MUST be engaged in public discourse. Again, why not both?
Ypu have to do the work of a PhD. to have the influence anyway. North pioneered the website intellectual model. Tom Woods learned it from him. Jordan Peterson also practices it. The only time they mention the degree is when advertising courses for money. The opportunity to run a small business for calling and profit makes it a bad idea to waste time in stagnant, accredited academia for a tenure which is really a bittersweet trap. Having a PhD. gets your foot in the door, but the real substance of a career is made on your own terms after university. Do it your own way and avoid the trap.
It's not about credentials. It's about how inspiring each one of us is as a person, we KNOW that liberty works, we just need to show people how confident we are in that fact.
I suppose one question to ask is what career options are there for an Econ PhD outside of academia. If (a) your options are worse than without one (unlikely, surely?), think very carefully. If (b) your options are not significantly improved compared to those available without to you one, it's a case of evaluating the value of the PhD to you more in and of itself, weighing that up against the alternative uses of your time and effort over the same period of time and the outputs they entail. If (c) your options are improved, assess how much of an improvement it offers, consider the alternative uses of time issue, and do the "inherent value of the PhD" calculation. And, if you've got your undergrad degree under your belt and you're still in your early 20s and you consider (b) or (c) apply, you haven't got all that much to lose. If you're contemplating the same decision at an older age, the alternative uses of your time argument gets significantly more important. Finding out your Econ PhD isn't all that helpful to you is far less of an issue if you're in your late 20s than it is if you're in your late 40s. While I appreciate Gary North's passion about the moral implications of joining a corrupt system etc., I think factoring those issues into it makes these sorts of decisions incredibly difficult almost to the point of making them impossible. You might just as easily end up working for a big crony capitalist company while pursuing your "outside academia Austrian scholarship path" and end up inadvertently supporting non-libertarian forces that way. While I do think we should all think carefully about what we're supporting when taking a job, particularly one where you're putting a lot of your energy into it, there's only so far you can go down that road. We all have to make compromises. I suppose what I'm saying is it's going to be very difficult to not be to some degree operating in contradiction with Austrian principles given that you have to live and work in a society that in its current state is often and in many places in contradiction with Austrian principles. Back in my country, Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan have been ardent campaigners for the UK to leave the European Union... while being members of the European Parliament! They used their membership of it as a platform to campaign about how bad it was!
Debate is about exploring ideas. We all win by learning, but as North pointed out (-pun) when one is persuaded to the others viewpoint - even marginally - then it can be viewed as a win. In rational philosophic debate that is the best of all outcomes. No one has perfect knowledge; we can only learn from each other.
Now that was enjoyable to watch. As much as I'm a Block fan, I would have to concede that North won. I did not like how North didn't address Blocks points when directly challenged, but I do think that North was surprisingly inspiring over Block.
@Xerriva It doesn't oppose mathematics in economics per se. It only opposes to wrong applications of mathematics in economics, such as quantifying a qualitative matter and make objective analyses on purely subjective matters.
I don't want a PHD to get a job, I want one because it feels like if you don't have one you are considered unqualified to speak on a subject in a public venue. I loved Gary North in this too, I think he made good points about college, if you get a PHD you are going to need to teach to justify it but you will be teaching a philosophy that you do not believe yourself.
@starsassy Look, I merely pointed out an inappropriate analogy in the debate. I've not said anything about who is encouraging whom by doing what. But since you kindly raised the topic, we might as well have a discussion. Two points: 1. There is passive submission, and there is active participation. I submit that these two are different by degree. 2. If you call passive submission encouraging, what word do you propose to call active participation?
Exactly. When Block said "they (the government) stole it (the money) from us in the first place", he made the mistake of using the terms "they" and "us" without clear consciousness of what they refer to. It is a problem Mises tackled early in Human Action. The receiver is the State university professors, and the giver is the private sector. The government did NOT steal the money from the professors, the just give it to them that they stole or robbed elsewhere.
Title of this video gives it away. Every one of Dr. North's points asserts that it is NOT SMART to get a p.i.E. Main takeaway for me 1) be clear why you are after a phd in Austrian E before you signup 2) calculate the costs and risks 3) there are better options if you do your homework. No idea why Dr. Block reads out contributors to Austrian E. Further he just listed the options available for an E phD. But is it smart to get one? He left that out amidst his incoherence. Sadly no debate here :(
Excellent debate. I have to agree with Walter. If Gary wants to be consistent, he would not use public roads, fiat currency etc. Yes, the ultimate goal is liberty and removal of the State. To achieve this, we must adhere to libertarian principles. That doesn't mean that we cannot use public roads, state schools or relay on state police. Murray Rothbard understood this.
The debate seemed to be about whether it's smart to pursue a career as an economics professor or teacher rather than simply get a PhD in economics. Or are these equivalent in the US?
That was great! More, please! I like Gary North, but he was wrong. This was obvious because he never addressed Block's strongest argument: If working at a university should not be done, then obviously using a road, sidewalk or fraudulent fiat currency should also not be done. Block FTW.
Just because there are cases where using government service is unavoidable doesn't mean you should line up at the public trough and hold your hands out. Walter doing so and claiming he is getting some of "his" money back is false, and should never be cited as a reason for taking government money. Money one receives from government does not come directly back from where it is put in, never in the same amount, and thus still contributes to market distortions.
PhD scholars are generally smart but not all smart are PhD scholar In some field of academics, PhD is worth it actually but in business administration of engineering it might not be.
There seems to be two arguments going on here. One has to wonder if the university system wasn't heavily subsidized and cartelized if North would still be telling everybody to forgo the structure of a formal education. One of Block's better arguments is that not everyone is a Hazlitt! There is value in being adequate in understanding economics well enough to be certified as such. Now, if that comes at a certain cost of state entanglement does that mean we have to forgo formal education?
If you're already versed in Austrian School it's exceedingly difficult to remember the number of twists and turns involved in Keynesianism. As a person currently experiencing this situation, it's rather trying on your patience.
That was a nice debate, both have good points but I do think Block has the better point here. I'm a great fan of both Block and North and I think that although North lost in my opinion, he did have some very valid points.
@passerby26 Maybe, but New Keynesianism is different than the older stuff to some degree. Also, Keynesian economics isn't the only thing you learn. You learn lots of Neo-Classical stuff, which is useful. The search for truth is far more important than blindly following a single school.
It isn't the governments money though. You wouldn't accept money from the Mafia and be satisfied as long as you weren't hurting people or spent your time writing books about how bad the Mafia is. When I first saw this I thought Gary was wrong because he was just being an idealist. But I think the reason they differ is actually because Gary North understand liberty in a spiritual sense where as Block is strictly rational about everything.
@Koutetsu Yes he sidestepped it, which I guess means he doesn't think it's inherently immoral, but rather he retreats to it being not desirable, esp. when it can be avoided.
@Xerriva They are more opposed to economics relying on mathematics such as "money velocity", "natural rate of unemployment", "money multiplier", etc.., not so much that there should be no mathematics what so ever used in economics. Graphs are used to represent many concepts, but the concept does not rely on the graphs.
Well... Thought from the beginning that Block wouldn't get out of this one alive but I guess i was wrong haha. Awesome debate, especially the last 10 minutes or so.
Also to compare teaching in the public university with using the public roads is inappropriate. One is a part of the cartel provider, while the other is a part of the cartel consumer.
I tend to agree with Block's point. If the government is paying him to teach real economics, and that the government is the cause of all problems, then they are technically using the money against themselves. If every Austrian professor chose private universities over public, there would be a lot of kids who wouldn't be exposed to the Austrian school. What North says about alternative means of teaching, can be done by a PHD grad as well.
"Most of us are mediocre" is bad economics in my opinion. That all of us have the potential to be exceptional is, I think, the main truism of economics. You just have to be an exceptional you rather than a mediocre whatever someone else wants you to be. This is the heart of comparative advantage.
With Austrian mind, I cannot study Keynesian crap on my own so i need to go to undergraduate or master´s degree to know that bullshit coz you got to know what´s it all about. But never for PHD. And then i can say ´´The more Keynesian I learn the more Austrian I become´´.
He should have expanded upon his critique and brought the whole thing home, that being said, he's got a limited amount of time to get a lot of information across. The thing I truly found appalling is that Block didn't bring up the fact that if you are a charismatic, respected personality that you can help bring the Keynsians to the truth instead of assuming that people that are interested are namby pambies.
If I'm forced at gunpoint to play monopoly for real money and I have a chance to buy Boardwalk, I'm buying it. Sure, it's not like getting the $200 for passing go which I had no choice in, but they're both acceptable positions. In order for anyone to accept an peer reviewed economic paper or even be considered an economist, they must attend a university. Block suggested some private school options, not just taking money from the state. North didn't address Blocks points and loses by default.
So, according to North, going to State U for undergraduate studies, or public schools would make us amoral? For Block, he said a PhD helps but, is it SMART? I think this is a horrible title for debate. A better one should be something like: Is a PhD degree in economics necessary.
And to add to that, it's not like the government's not going to take that money if he doesn't teach. The money being taken from the people is the cost, and a sunk cost at that. He's simply trying to make up for the losses. Oh hey, economic analysis.
I think Gary was hitting under the belt. It's one thing to bring up the fact. Another to really rub it in public setting... and to mention how much another makes. Quite rude really. But I don't disagree with him either.
Wow, can't believe Gary North just basically argued that Mises was right on everything. He said "why study something Mises said was wrong?" uh...to get to know other people's perspectives? Who knows, you might actually...LEARN something *gasp* It's absurd to think that one school of thought has it all.
North's argument was really stupid. Essentially he's saying that getting a PHD in economics will not advance your knowledge of Austrian economics and will not promote Austrian economics to others. I think the majority of people seeking graduate economics degrees are interested in the more applied economics disciplines (econometrics, financial economics, energy economics). I frankly don't care about Austrianism or Keynsianism or writing blogs and making youtube videos promoting viewpoints.
You can take back money from the State without having to be associated with it by working for it. Why would Robin Hood want to be an employee of the rich crooked king and sheriff if he could just take back from them and have more liberties by not working for them? Certain services individuals have little to no voluntary alternatives like with roads, but with schools, alternative options are much higher (low monopoly).
IMO, Walter has always fallen flat with his analogy of working for the government is the same as using public roads and fiat currency. The first is a choice, the others are forced upon you by guns and badges. And having to continually bring up the Rand novel, as he has always done, to make this case is pitiful. He is simply just trying to justify his own immoral behavior in his own mind.
@baile2nm But the principle of the matter is that in either case, you are still profiting from government intervention. If you follow this principle through, Block is right, you have no right to use the roads, etc. That's why you can be part of the system and fight against it at the same time. There is no way out of this hypocrisy.
And join the same class as Paul Krugman? I think it might be preferable to remain self-taught. Nobel prizes and Ivy League Ph.D.s aren't what they used to be.
@duke1duke1 Fair enough. I just don't see how that means there's anything wrong with teaching at a university. The government is gonna spend that money anyways whether you happen to be teaching there or not. Also, if you really wanted to, I'm pretty sure you *could* have your own private school that doesn't accept taxpayer money. I think some already exist, actually.
There are plenty of well credentialed Austrians (Walter Block got his PhD from Columbia,), but the point is moot in the first place. Creationism is crazy, but not because people at Harvard think it is. I hope you find better ways to come to conclusions than blindly following authorities.
@passerby26 There IS an alternative to driving - get someone else to do it for you or try to be self-sufficient and live off the grid. It's a stupid idea in my opinion, but it *is* an alternative. On a side note, you could go to a private university and not be funded by tax dollars if you wanna teach. But of course, why wouldn't you wanna teach at a public university? They need good econ teachers too!
So you really think Gary North is so nobel? I mean his investment advice is so flawed that it really makes me cringe. He actually advise ppl to purchase Sg dollars without really investigating the economics of that nation. He never realize that Sg is nearly maxed out and property price is so high. A bubble may happen. High property price could be the reason why the dollar is so high. His ignorance baffles me. He says that sg is one of the fastest growing economies when the fact is that it is al
That Keynesian burden is the cost to pay for giving the battle Mises told we have to give. Libertarians should take ivy leagues and all colleges with a cultural approach, the same way cultural Marxism has done.
You should learn about Christianity if you're an atheist, though. All theology, really. How can you possibly critique something if you know nothing about it? You'd just be stating baseless, blanket assumptions or saying MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS. Then again, I don't really debate atheists or Christians, for various reasons which should be clear to all.
PhD's in economics should be abolished. First of all the title is supposed to imply "doctor on philosophy" and nobody learns anythign about philosophy in mainstream econ. And to make things worst, its a PhD in a social science and no social science training is required!
![일상 속 기분 좋음 [Proto disco meme]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DwmEIaZ7XGQ/mqdefault.jpg)
"I still say the only education worth anything is self-education."
--Robert Frost
Professor Block hits on the great weakness of economics as a discipline: the emphasis on mathematical analysis over a fundamental understanding of the forces at work in the real world. Earlier generations of economists and before them the political economists brought attention to issues related to fundamental societal organization. The ground covered by Adam Smith in "The Wealth of Nations" is, in modern terms, interdisciplinary.
Regardless of what discipline one pursues in connection with an advance degree, a thorough study of political economy provides a sound base of knowledge from which to specialize, if desired.
Mises! Please, please post more videos like this one. This was outstanding. I would love to see more debates of any kind on this channel.
It was an excellent intelligent debate and both speakers made very important points. The question i think you're left with is: is the ethical system Dr. north puts forward GOOD by the criteria of Misesian or Rothbardian ethics. Is it practical, productive, good, happy, remunerative, to enter the libertarian tradition outside academia once you accept Dr. Norths characterisation of it.
Mises may make the utilitarian argument that i think Walter Would be forced to make if he had accepted North's moral criticism of academia; which is ARE THE MEANS FIT TO ACHIEVE THE ENDS. And people shouldn't be confused about what they're doing and why we're here. Everything people do in the libertarian tradition OUGHT to be toward the end of establishing a free society. Academia obviously stands out to Dr. Block as the foremost means of making a mark in the libertarian tradition, but it IS also a means toward other goods like personal material wealth.
Because the debate was focused on academia Block focused on Rothbard and Mises. But he also mentioned Hazlitt, and Lew Rockwell two people who have made incredible contributions without a phd.
Block and North both emphasised that whatever choices people make they should be realistic in their expectations. Walter made the point that a phd has value because it accredits people academic respect, and followed that up by saying most of us are mediocre. But Doesn't Gary's point that "if you can't deliver the goods; get out of the market" trump that?
There seem to be two fundamental points here that Walter brings up and both touch on the ethical systems Mises and Rothbard put forward.
1. Is it GOOD to get a phd as part of your contribution to the libertarian tradition and the progress toward a free society?
2. Is it GOOD to get a phd as part of your own personal ethical idea of the good life? (It didn't seem to hurt Hazlitt. But someone like Tom Woods may have needed a phd because, like many people, we have ideas from childhood we need to see through).
And both of these questions can be answered by referencing a natural law idea of individual liberty, OR a utilitarian argument of means.
If you choose to accept North's moral position will you look back on a life lived out of socialist academia and 30 years from now say that it was an effective means of promoting liberty? Was sticking to that ethic productive? Did it make you personally happy?
Once one starts publishing good scholarship the doctorate is earned informally and tenure becomes irrelevant through the small business. North studied history, specifically American Colonial History. But he was also a serious economist, theologian, and social thinker of great consequence, if one reads his work.
He published over 80 works and became a multimillionaire without tenure. His audience was very large if limited by his era and ideological laser-beam focus. He has educated thousands of successful young people like myself through the Ron Paul Curriculum, which he basically created. Tom Woods learned blogging and publishing from North, he pioneered the website influencer model.
North had an exceptional career and influence, even without academia. When we consider influential modern thinkers, few are currently tenured academics. Jordan Peterson, though a centrist, is the most notable example.
As someone who's going for their masters in a different field and is considering a PhD, I think this is a very good conversation
I gave it a shot, formally studying economics for a couple of years (30 years ago). I learned the hard way to agree with Gary North.
What makes you say that?
"You have to learn keynesianism. You have to learn whats wrong with it"
I agree with that statement from Walter. If you don't know the main theory out there you will get crushed. How can you critisize it if you don't know it?
That North guy is pretty cool though.
*Cue "porque no los dos?" girl*
Like Block says, the Ph.D. adds a credential behind what you say. Like North says, you don't HAVE to get the Ph.D. to make an impact for the movement and that good libertarian "foot soldiers" (for lack of a better term) MUST be engaged in public discourse.
Again, why not both?
Ypu have to do the work of a PhD. to have the influence anyway. North pioneered the website intellectual model. Tom Woods learned it from him. Jordan Peterson also practices it. The only time they mention the degree is when advertising courses for money. The opportunity to run a small business for calling and profit makes it a bad idea to waste time in stagnant, accredited academia for a tenure which is really a bittersweet trap.
Having a PhD. gets your foot in the door, but the real substance of a career is made on your own terms after university. Do it your own way and avoid the trap.
It's not about credentials. It's about how inspiring each one of us is as a person, we KNOW that liberty works, we just need to show people how confident we are in that fact.
I suppose one question to ask is what career options are there for an Econ PhD outside of academia. If (a) your options are worse than without one (unlikely, surely?), think very carefully. If (b) your options are not significantly improved compared to those available without to you one, it's a case of evaluating the value of the PhD to you more in and of itself, weighing that up against the alternative uses of your time and effort over the same period of time and the outputs they entail. If (c) your options are improved, assess how much of an improvement it offers, consider the alternative uses of time issue, and do the "inherent value of the PhD" calculation.
And, if you've got your undergrad degree under your belt and you're still in your early 20s and you consider (b) or (c) apply, you haven't got all that much to lose. If you're contemplating the same decision at an older age, the alternative uses of your time argument gets significantly more important. Finding out your Econ PhD isn't all that helpful to you is far less of an issue if you're in your late 20s than it is if you're in your late 40s.
While I appreciate Gary North's passion about the moral implications of joining a corrupt system etc., I think factoring those issues into it makes these sorts of decisions incredibly difficult almost to the point of making them impossible. You might just as easily end up working for a big crony capitalist company while pursuing your "outside academia Austrian scholarship path" and end up inadvertently supporting non-libertarian forces that way.
While I do think we should all think carefully about what we're supporting when taking a job, particularly one where you're putting a lot of your energy into it, there's only so far you can go down that road. We all have to make compromises. I suppose what I'm saying is it's going to be very difficult to not be to some degree operating in contradiction with Austrian principles given that you have to live and work in a society that in its current state is often and in many places in contradiction with Austrian principles. Back in my country, Nigel Farage and Daniel Hannan have been ardent campaigners for the UK to leave the European Union... while being members of the European Parliament! They used their membership of it as a platform to campaign about how bad it was!
Awesome upload, very entertaining. More debates please!!!
Debate is about exploring ideas. We all win by learning, but as North pointed out (-pun) when one is persuaded to the others viewpoint - even marginally - then it can be viewed as a win. In rational philosophic debate that is the best of all outcomes.
No one has perfect knowledge; we can only learn from each other.
Now that was enjoyable to watch. As much as I'm a Block fan, I would have to concede that North won. I did not like how North didn't address Blocks points when directly challenged, but I do think that North was surprisingly inspiring over Block.
Love Block's work, but I have to agree with Gary that if there is any alternative to government solutions we have to use them out of moral necessity.
Walter Block is older than Gary North? I never would have guessed that.
@Xerriva It doesn't oppose mathematics in economics per se. It only opposes to wrong applications of mathematics in economics, such as quantifying a qualitative matter and make objective analyses on purely subjective matters.
We love you, Walter! You're much more than mediocre. You're amazing!
I don't want a PHD to get a job, I want one because it feels like if you don't have one you are considered unqualified to speak on a subject in a public venue.
I loved Gary North in this too, I think he made good points about college, if you get a PHD you are going to need to teach to justify it but you will be teaching a philosophy that you do not believe yourself.
@starsassy Look, I merely pointed out an inappropriate analogy in the debate. I've not said anything about who is encouraging whom by doing what. But since you kindly raised the topic, we might as well have a discussion.
Two points:
1. There is passive submission, and there is active participation. I submit that these two are different by degree.
2. If you call passive submission encouraging, what word do you propose to call active participation?
Wow, this is fantastic. I love debates.
Exactly. When Block said "they (the government) stole it (the money) from us in the first place", he made the mistake of using the terms "they" and "us" without clear consciousness of what they refer to. It is a problem Mises tackled early in Human Action. The receiver is the State university professors, and the giver is the private sector. The government did NOT steal the money from the professors, the just give it to them that they stole or robbed elsewhere.
Title of this video gives it away. Every one of Dr. North's points asserts that it is NOT SMART to get a p.i.E. Main takeaway for me 1) be clear why you are after a phd in Austrian E before you signup 2) calculate the costs and risks 3) there are better options if you do your homework.
No idea why Dr. Block reads out contributors to Austrian E. Further he just listed the options available for an E phD. But is it smart to get one? He left that out amidst his incoherence.
Sadly no debate here :(
Excellent debate. I have to agree with Walter. If Gary wants to be consistent, he would not use public roads, fiat currency etc. Yes, the ultimate goal is liberty and removal of the State. To achieve this, we must adhere to libertarian principles. That doesn't mean that we cannot use public roads, state schools or relay on state police. Murray Rothbard understood this.
The debate seemed to be about whether it's smart to pursue a career as an economics professor or teacher rather than simply get a PhD in economics. Or are these equivalent in the US?
That was great! More, please! I like Gary North, but he was wrong. This was obvious because he never addressed Block's strongest argument: If working at a university should not be done, then obviously using a road, sidewalk or fraudulent fiat currency should also not be done. Block FTW.
Why don’t they do this more often ?
I love that North Guy!
Both of these guys have PhDs. Nuff said.
ScholarforTruth Gary North grew to see it as worthless, that's why he is debating against it.
@starsassy Let's just say we agree on your point here, still it doesn't refute the difference that I mentioned.
Just because there are cases where using government service is unavoidable doesn't mean you should line up at the public trough and hold your hands out.
Walter doing so and claiming he is getting some of "his" money back is false, and should never be cited as a reason for taking government money. Money one receives from government does not come directly back from where it is put in, never in the same amount, and thus still contributes to market distortions.
PhD scholars are generally smart but not all smart are PhD scholar
In some field of academics, PhD is worth it actually but in business administration of engineering it might not be.
Why do the austrians oppose mathematics in economics so much?
There seems to be two arguments going on here. One has to wonder if the university system wasn't heavily subsidized and cartelized if North would still be telling everybody to forgo the structure of a formal education.
One of Block's better arguments is that not everyone is a Hazlitt! There is value in being adequate in understanding economics well enough to be certified as such. Now, if that comes at a certain cost of state entanglement does that mean we have to forgo formal education?
If you're already versed in Austrian School it's exceedingly difficult to remember the number of twists and turns involved in Keynesianism. As a person currently experiencing this situation, it's rather trying on your patience.
That was a nice debate, both have good points but I do think Block has the better point here.
I'm a great fan of both Block and North and I think that although North lost in my opinion, he did have some very valid points.
@passerby26
Maybe, but New Keynesianism is different than the older stuff to some degree. Also, Keynesian economics isn't the only thing you learn. You learn lots of Neo-Classical stuff, which is useful. The search for truth is far more important than blindly following a single school.
It isn't the governments money though. You wouldn't accept money from the Mafia and be satisfied as long as you weren't hurting people or spent your time writing books about how bad the Mafia is.
When I first saw this I thought Gary was wrong because he was just being an idealist. But I think the reason they differ is actually because Gary North understand liberty in a spiritual sense where as Block is strictly rational about everything.
@Koutetsu Yes he sidestepped it, which I guess means he doesn't think it's inherently immoral, but rather he retreats to it being not desirable, esp. when it can be avoided.
@ 57:32 hit the nail on the head. was thinking exactly that after Block made his pro PhD argument in the beginning.
@hennypenny247
George Mason University offers PhDs in economics and also Austrian Economics if I recall correctly
@Xerriva They are more opposed to economics relying on mathematics such as "money velocity", "natural rate of unemployment", "money multiplier", etc.., not so much that there should be no mathematics what so ever used in economics. Graphs are used to represent many concepts, but the concept does not rely on the graphs.
I love Walter Block, but Gary North tears him apart.
Well... Thought from the beginning that Block wouldn't get out of this one alive but I guess i was wrong haha. Awesome debate, especially the last 10 minutes or so.
More debates!
23:30~24:00 that's impressive
Also to compare teaching in the public university with using the public roads is inappropriate. One is a part of the cartel provider, while the other is a part of the cartel consumer.
I tend to agree with Block's point. If the government is paying him to teach real economics, and that the government is the cause of all problems, then they are technically using the money against themselves. If every Austrian professor chose private universities over public, there would be a lot of kids who wouldn't be exposed to the Austrian school. What North says about alternative means of teaching, can be done by a PHD grad as well.
"Most of us are mediocre" is bad economics in my opinion.
That all of us have the potential to be exceptional is, I think, the main truism of economics. You just have to be an exceptional you rather than a mediocre whatever someone else wants you to be.
This is the heart of comparative advantage.
Y2K and Gary north what's the relationship?
SHAMSHAM1090 don't know, what is it? 😀
Block - "you have to learn the Keynesian crap"
Makes about as much sense telling an atheist they have to learn Christianity.
I want to hear a debate between an anarcho-capitalist and a minimal-statist.
I agree with Walter Block, but I like what Gary North said...
With Austrian mind, I cannot study Keynesian crap on my own so i need to go to undergraduate or master´s degree to know that bullshit coz you got to know what´s it all about. But never for PHD. And then i can say ´´The more Keynesian I learn the more Austrian I become´´.
agreed. If the feds are throwing tax dollars at him then good for him. Receiving stolen property is not a crime.
He should have expanded upon his critique and brought the whole thing home, that being said, he's got a limited amount of time to get a lot of information across.
The thing I truly found appalling is that Block didn't bring up the fact that if you are a charismatic, respected personality that you can help bring the Keynsians to the truth instead of assuming that people that are interested are namby pambies.
If I'm forced at gunpoint to play monopoly for real money and I have a chance to buy Boardwalk, I'm buying it. Sure, it's not like getting the $200 for passing go which I had no choice in, but they're both acceptable positions. In order for anyone to accept an peer reviewed economic paper or even be considered an economist, they must attend a university. Block suggested some private school options, not just taking money from the state. North didn't address Blocks points and loses by default.
@orthzar How do you make money making youtube videos and blogging?
So, according to North, going to State U for undergraduate studies, or public schools would make us amoral?
For Block, he said a PhD helps but, is it SMART?
I think this is a horrible title for debate. A better one should be something like: Is a PhD degree in economics necessary.
Is it me, or is Block really turning red during North's last turn?
The question that should be internalized by commentators: Why do you need to learn Keynesianism if you know and practice Austrian economics?
And to add to that, it's not like the government's not going to take that money if he doesn't teach. The money being taken from the people is the cost, and a sunk cost at that. He's simply trying to make up for the losses.
Oh hey, economic analysis.
I think Gary was hitting under the belt. It's one thing to bring up the fact. Another to really rub it in public setting... and to mention how much another makes. Quite rude really. But I don't disagree with him either.
@t3hsauce In this debate or generally?
I need someone to TLDR this shit
I like the voice of walters about tthe economics in this university ,in future i will be trying to get the phd from this university.
So...WHO WON this debate????
Wow, can't believe Gary North just basically argued that Mises was right on everything. He said "why study something Mises said was wrong?" uh...to get to know other people's perspectives? Who knows, you might actually...LEARN something *gasp*
It's absurd to think that one school of thought has it all.
North's argument was really stupid. Essentially he's saying that getting a PHD in economics will not advance your knowledge of Austrian economics and will not promote Austrian economics to others. I think the majority of people seeking graduate economics degrees are interested in the more applied economics disciplines (econometrics, financial economics, energy economics). I frankly don't care about Austrianism or Keynsianism or writing blogs and making youtube videos promoting viewpoints.
You can take back money from the State without having to be associated with it by working for it. Why would Robin Hood want to be an employee of the rich crooked king and sheriff if he could just take back from them and have more liberties by not working for them? Certain services individuals have little to no voluntary alternatives like with roads, but with schools, alternative options are much higher (low monopoly).
How great would it be to sit around with these two guys with a good bottle of single malt scotch (Glenlivet) and a few Cuban cigars?
IMO, Walter has always fallen flat with his analogy of working for the government is the same as using public roads and fiat currency. The first is a choice, the others are forced upon you by guns and badges. And having to continually bring up the Rand novel, as he has always done, to make this case is pitiful.
He is simply just trying to justify his own immoral behavior in his own mind.
@baile2nm But the principle of the matter is that in either case, you are still profiting from government intervention. If you follow this principle through, Block is right, you have no right to use the roads, etc. That's why you can be part of the system and fight against it at the same time. There is no way out of this hypocrisy.
Gary North's marketing spam website uses copyright protection, internet domain infrastructure, etc.
And join the same class as Paul Krugman? I think it might be preferable to remain self-taught. Nobel prizes and Ivy League Ph.D.s aren't what they used to be.
@duke1duke1
Fair enough. I just don't see how that means there's anything wrong with teaching at a university. The government is gonna spend that money anyways whether you happen to be teaching there or not.
Also, if you really wanted to, I'm pretty sure you *could* have your own private school that doesn't accept taxpayer money. I think some already exist, actually.
There are plenty of well credentialed Austrians (Walter Block got his PhD from Columbia,), but the point is moot in the first place. Creationism is crazy, but not because people at Harvard think it is. I hope you find better ways to come to conclusions than blindly following authorities.
true. my bad. I was being sarcastic but I guess it didnt come off that way
@passerby26
There IS an alternative to driving - get someone else to do it for you or try to be self-sufficient and live off the grid. It's a stupid idea in my opinion, but it *is* an alternative.
On a side note, you could go to a private university and not be funded by tax dollars if you wanna teach. But of course, why wouldn't you wanna teach at a public university? They need good econ teachers too!
North has good points, Block Wins.
So you really think Gary North is so nobel? I mean his investment advice is so flawed that it really makes me cringe. He actually advise ppl to purchase Sg dollars without really investigating the economics of that nation. He never realize that Sg is nearly maxed out and property price is so high. A bubble may happen. High property price could be the reason why the dollar is so high. His ignorance baffles me. He says that sg is one of the fastest growing economies when the fact is that it is al
@t3hsauce Thumb down and you even got Walter's name wrong.
Advantage North.
Gary North>Walther Block
I agree with North 100x over
@evilsceptic In this debate.
@warwize Well, when you can explain what's wrong with Menger's price theory, we're all ears.
@t3hsauce Yeh but he is a bit, erm, crazy. Plus Walter Block is a hoot!
block won for me
block takes it in the last 10 minutes
That Keynesian burden is the cost to pay for giving the battle Mises told we have to give. Libertarians should take ivy leagues and all colleges with a cultural approach, the same way cultural Marxism has done.
You should learn about Christianity if you're an atheist, though. All theology, really. How can you possibly critique something if you know nothing about it? You'd just be stating baseless, blanket assumptions or saying MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOURS.
Then again, I don't really debate atheists or Christians, for various reasons which should be clear to all.
LOL so much Red Herrings fro North
The Ph.D. goes Th.D..
it's rigged! walter threw the fight!
Walter, you potty mouth! :)
PhD's in economics should be abolished. First of all the title is supposed to imply "doctor on philosophy" and nobody learns anythign about philosophy in mainstream econ. And to make things worst, its a PhD in a social science and no social science training is required!
Austrian school economics!!!
@hennypenny247
A men brother!
moar debates!!!
Test