Please remember to register to vote, my U.S. friends. Also, teenagers who will have their 18th birthday before election day can register to vote in September, and U.S. missionaries should be encouraged to cast their absentee ballots for those who can safely do so! Captain Moroni would be proud. 😁 Thank y'all SO much! This discussion was really great.
I've never liked the war chapters. Thank you for helping me feel the spirit of the lessons therein. Married to a Veteran and a Veteran myself have caused many "struggles", taken "courage", and work to see through different "perspective lenses". Grateful for the Grace of loving Heavenly parents and brother.
Same, and come from a long line of veterans and work with the military. My eyes and heart have been opened in such a different way. Thank you for your service.
I am always amazed how the "simple" scripture story I grew up learning g is so much more. I love all the insight and deeper understanding I get by listening to your podcast.
Again, Part 2 never fails me. Without it, it's like reading only half of a book! I've gained so much understanding of the scriptures through this podcast, It's been life changing. Thank you!
I listen each week to you Hank and John. I always love your podcasts and guests❣️ Every week seems to become better and better. I am grateful for your knowledge, your interpretations, your kindness and thoughts. Your guests are amazing, Miller now Top❣️❣️
I don’t see how you two (or three) have time for normal lives with all you do for us on Follow Him. Thank you! And Justin Top is great. His insights have given us much to contemplate and discuss.
Wow you guys knocked it out of the park again...i grew up not active all the time and now that I'm really active these podcasts help me understand the scriptures so much better ❤
Gentleman, another amazing lesson--Thank you! Jason, my grandson just finished boot camp and is now at Camp Pendleton MCT. I am anxiously awaiting his address so that I can write to him. He does not go to church, but God spoke to me through you, and I will be including some of your message, as a Marine chaplain, in my letter to him. Many humble thanks. 🙏
Thank you for this podcast. I’m deployed to the Middle East right now with the Army and it’s such a blessing to listen to each week. In Church culture the Sons of Helaman are often called “Stripling Warriors.” However, the Book of Mormon never refers to them as warriors, just as soldiers, sons, or Ammonites. Soldiers fight not for themselves but for their country or a greater cause. Why do you think we call them warriors if that is non-scriptural?
I think that Arnold Freiburg who painted one of the first and most fameous paintings of them (commissioned- I don’t think he was LDS) called his painting “The 2000 Stripling Warriors” and that was in the Book of Mormon printed edition for years (it may still be) and so the name of the painting influenced culture of what we called them. God bless you for your sacrifice! Thank you from those of us at home.
Pahoran’s prayers were answered. He wasn’t sure what he should do about the rebellious Nephites, but the Lord answered his prayers through the epistle of Moroni. Even though the epistle was a bit harsh, it was the answer to prayer Pahoran was seeking. Sometimes answers to prayers don’t come the way we wish they would. Thankfully, Pahoran’s heart was humble so that when he heard the answer, or read the answer, he was humble enough to recognize and receive it. It is a great lesson for all of us.
I have learned, from having my son die in his 30’s, that death isn’t has terrible as we might think. Many people that die are able to do more on the other side than they can here. We have seen so many miracles and blessings since he died. We are sure he has a lot to do with that.i guess what I’m trying to say is living is not always what needs to happen to help your family progress eternally. So even though many Nephites died during the war and the stripling warriors lived, the ones who died may have had a big influence on why they lived.
As you guys always ask, I listen to the podcast every now and than while driving. The last month worth of podcast did my Family and I listen during our 2.000 kilo meter vacation trip through Germany. You and your guest are awesome, we learned a lot and felt the spirit. When I talk to other members in my ward or the youth of our stake (if they understand English) I always recomment them to give our podcast a try. Thanks for your work.
Dr Top I worked for your grandfather, Norman Top, in Idaho Falls back in the early 70's. I'm sure he's watching over your family and very pleased with the direction you've taken in your life! Thank you so much for this podcast! It was very enlightening to see these chapters in a different light! I'm married to a Viet Nam veteran, who understands how war works. He is very patriotic and struggles to watch what is happening in our nation right now! Thank you again!
Thank you profoundly for teaching me each week to view these scriptures with a little more depth and a lot more humanity! I appreciate you and your podcast more than you know!
Thanks to each of you for these wonderful enlightening discussions. I always come away with new insights and a greater desire to study the scriptures with greater intent! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
My husband and I served as military relations missionaries assigned to the Coast Guard Academy but we also worked at a sub and a naval base. Loved hearing Dr. Top’s perspective with his military experience and as a psychologist. Great choice for these chapters. Listen every week. Thank you!
I have learned many things through these chapters with all of you. The significant thing I realized is the amazing character of Moroni for even including chapter 60 in the Book Of Mormon! WOW, he lets us see that even the Chief Captain, can get frustrated.
OMG, this was such an awesome lesson!!! I think I will have to listen to it again. Thank you all so much for your insights!! Thank you, thank you!! ❤🇨🇦
Carefully read Alma60:1 and you will see that Moroni’s letter is to all the leadership in Zarahemla with Pahoran at the head of the government. Recognize it is not a letter just toPahoran but to the government leadership.
Im a few weeks behind! At the beginning of the year I thought every week almost 2 whole hours? Now Im listening to them 2 or 3 times and have to take notes. You have changed my views and increased my love and reliance on the book of mormon. Thank you for the lessons as we prepare for battles we dont want to ( but will) fight.
Hank and John, your show is my favorite one to listen to. I look forward to each episode with great anticipation, and the insights from each guest are amazing! I love that Mormon decided to include these letters between Moroni and Pahoran, in connection with the comment that Mormon made about Moroni in Alma 48:17. In spite of Moroni giving in to the natural man and getting angry in this letter, Mormon still chose to write about him that, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be like unto Moroni, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever. That gives me hope that, in spite of my imperfections, I can still overcome the natural man and “be like unto Moroni”, I can shake the very powers of hell. Thank you for all that you do to share your insights and, especially, your testimonies with me each week!
Oh how we could use Abraham Lincoln in today’s politics. He is my favorite president of the United States. Thank you for a great podcast again. It is helping me with my RS lesson … elder Rasbands talk Words Matter!
such insight on the war chapters. It's finally come around to help me understand why they're included in the Bok of Mormon. Just another way to add my testimony of the Book of Mormon!
It's also interesting to think that holding the Aaronic priesthood is holding the power of the ministering angels. That is definitely invaluable in the battle stories told at the beginning of this episode. It's like the story in the bible with Elijah - "They that be with us are more than they that be with them".
Great podcast. You mentioned that Moroni’s letter states that the Lord told him to take his armies and go against the leaders of the government if they didn’t repent. I don’t believe this was a mistake on Moroni’s part. While Pahoran was innocent, those who usurped power did indeed need Moroni to bring his armies against them. The Lord didn’t give him all the details, but did inspire him in what he needed to do next.
Listening from American Fork, Utah! I thought I had gleaned so much from the War chapters (much of it from John’s book) that I would just be enjoying the discussion but I have learned lots more. Thank you. There is some chatter on here about Moroni and Pahoran. I loved the insights that were shared about the human tendencies we all have. It helped me apply those chapters to my own life in a new way. I would refer the person who thinks Pahoran is weak, to Elder Bednar’s April 2018 conference address about meekness. He uses Pahoran as an example of Christ-like meekness and meekness is not weakness. We don’t have to pick sides in these chapters. Mormon gives us both sides of the story and I bet he hopes we learn from both men, especially in a world of war -the war of words and information barraging us all the time.
There is such a political lesson with the king men solution. I’m not sure the issues of being in the war,but with the overcoming of the king men threat and how the king men they made their own decision to die rather than fight for liberties and peace. The king men were summarily dispatched, no appealing to The Hague for a long drawn out trial. The king men were a terrorist threat, no habeas corpus issues. There was no discovery period to find the fault leaders or discerning of which or who was at fault, I’m sure these characters had been known already. The time element is not discussed but the work was done and then back to the war. Mormon’s coverage was perfect in its description and conclusion . I often think that American criminals could be handled the same way.
I wonder also if Captain Moroni, in his censure of Pahoran, was so direct and harsh because of dealing with such already troublesome circumstances. He was not correct that Pahoran went astray, but was correct the situation was dire and needed to be addressed.
Thanks, John, for the insights into Moroni's situation reflected in the story in Follow Him Favorites. Thanks to your dad for his service; thank you to they many, like Moroni who have served so that we can dance.
The letter is not just for Pahoran. Pahoran was the head, so the letter to him , not only for him Ye is plural. And Moroni mentions others,also. Great insights!! I love your lessons.
Despite Moroni’s harsh words, I find it instructive that Mormon still says of him that he “was a man of a perfect understanding”, and that he “was firm in the faith of Christ”. Also, Mormon says that the very powers of hell would be shaken forever if all men were like him. Pahoran was also a great man to have taken such a lashing with such humility. I think that, rather than saying he had grace (which Christ gives), he had charity (which we’re commanded to have).
I love you guys and I say this with all due respect, but in my opinion, you are being pretty ungenerous to Moroni and too generous to Pahoran. The reality is that Moroni and his armies had been woefully neglected, and Moroni says in verse 6: "And now behold, we desire to know the cause of this exceedingly great neglect; yea, we desire to know the cause of your thoughtless state." He never accuses anyone, but just explains the reality of the situation and says in other words: "If this is what is happening, here is what I am going to do. He always leaves the door open for another explanation which is obvious because he sent the last letter for help rather than marching on Zarahemla. The big question I have is why did Pahoran wait until he got the last letter before sending word to the leader of the armies to ask for help or at least warn Moroni that no more food or men would be coming? Pahoran says "And now, Moroni, I do joy in receiving your epistle, for I was somewhat worried concerning what we should do, whether it should be just in us to go against our brethren." I don't judge Pahoran for being uncertain, but it was the conviction and leadership of Moroni in his last desperate plea for action that got Pahoran moving at last in the right direction. Moroni is, as always, the hero of the story, and didn't do anything wrong as far as I am concerned. I am open to response if anyone would like to give one.
Thinking about this, I really think the answer to this dilemma is grace. I don't know that we really have enough information about this situation to truly make a judgment either way. I do feel, however, that these scriptural accounts give us so much material and so many insights to use to apply them to our lives in the very ways the Spirit prompts us to do when we read them. Because of that, I think any interpretation is a personal matter and I would hope for grace for both the characters involved and for my expression of what I may have learned from it. Thanks for your comment!
Yes! This passage is instructive as presented for our personal lives, but I don't think we should criticize Moroni. There were thousands depending on him for their lives. He didn't have time for a lot of back and forth polite correspondence. It's also an example of how we need to take action in times of political unrest.
Moroni was wrong at naming Pahorna but he was correct that all he said was correct against the lesser judges that made Pahoran had to leave Zarahemla and go into hiding. Bad governors (please notice the plural) Pahoran even says in his response that he is grateful for Moroni’s words and he is correct in calling out the lower judges. 26:34
@@davidnightingale146 That's what I wanted to point out as well! I believe Moroni's revelation was sound against the lower judges. He just didn't know, and was concerned that Pahoran was also included in that. But I really think we shouldn't discredit the revelation he received- this was Moroni (whom, though he isn't perfect, if all of us were like him, Satan would have no power over us)- I believe he KNEW revelation when he received it.
I agree. Moroni was not wrong. The letter was not a personal attack on Pahoran. He said he was addressing his letter to ALL the government leaders. And he says that he recognized that the kingmen were the main problem. But Pahoran is the chief governor, the buck stops with him. Pahoran was a good man, but a weak leader. He didn't take action until Moroni prodded action.
Why do we call them “stripling warriors” ? Helaman only refers to them as young men, men, my little sons, sons, sons of the people of Ammon, and once as soldiers. The word warrior is only used in the Book of Mormon twice. Once in 2 Nephi 19 quoting Isaiah referring to a generic warrior and once in Alma 51:31 where it describes the super strong and skilled men fighting with Teancum. Helamen’s little sons had never fought before and were little and young. They are never referred to as warriors and so I am wondering how this label started in LDS culture. In Joseph Smith’s day warrior was the popular term used to describe Native American fighters. But Joseph does not use warrior when interpreting the stories about Helaman’s 2000 sons. Why do we?
You lost me until you clarified that Moroni was actually right. For a while there your discussion was becoming a "Moroni is a bad guy", like so many of the "Nephi was a bad guy" discussions we hear at Church. Moroni was not influenced by the devil at all according to my reading of these chapters. If he was he would be acting like Amalikiah. I think we need to be careful in our comments about those who say what the Lord would say if He was in their situation. The Lord expressed justified anger many times, I bet we could deconstruct some of His comments as being insensitive if we wanted to, but of course He was never insensitive.
Listening further and you keep criticizing Moroni. I find that very disturbing. We need more Moroni's today, more people that will hold their public representatives to account for failing in their duty. Moroni and his soldiers were close to death every day, many of them did die defending those in Zarahemla, and they weren't doing their job. He was totally inspired in what he said and it seems to me that Pahoram understands the duty the government has just as well as Moroni.
I appreciate your getting an actual member of the military to present concepts about the war chapters. Justin Top understands it from both sides.
Please remember to register to vote, my U.S. friends. Also, teenagers who will have their 18th birthday before election day can register to vote in September, and U.S. missionaries should be encouraged to cast their absentee ballots for those who can safely do so! Captain Moroni would be proud. 😁
Thank y'all SO much! This discussion was really great.
And vote early just in case there are glitches in your voting area / district.
I've never liked the war chapters. Thank you for helping me feel the spirit of the lessons therein. Married to a Veteran and a Veteran myself have caused many "struggles", taken "courage", and work to see through different "perspective lenses". Grateful for the Grace of loving Heavenly parents and brother.
Same, and come from a long line of veterans and work with the military. My eyes and heart have been opened in such a different way. Thank you for your service.
I am always amazed how the "simple" scripture story I grew up learning g is so much more. I love all the insight and deeper understanding I get by listening to your podcast.
Again, Part 2 never fails me.
Without it, it's like reading only half of a book!
I've gained so much understanding of the scriptures through this podcast, It's been life changing. Thank you!
This has been an answer for me in my life. My battle is different but the message fits.
Sending love for your battle. 🙏🏻❤️
I listen each week to you Hank and John. I always love your podcasts and guests❣️ Every week seems to become better and better. I am grateful for your knowledge, your interpretations, your kindness and thoughts. Your guests are amazing, Miller now Top❣️❣️
I don’t see how you two (or three) have time for normal lives with all you do for us on Follow Him. Thank you! And Justin Top is great. His insights have given us much to contemplate and discuss.
I love the war chapters, but my love for them has grown as I’ve listened to this great pod cast. Thank you AGAIN for helping the Spirit touch my life.
Wow you guys knocked it out of the park again...i grew up not active all the time and now that I'm really active these podcasts help me understand the scriptures so much better ❤
Gentleman, another amazing lesson--Thank you! Jason, my grandson just finished boot camp and is now at Camp Pendleton MCT. I am anxiously awaiting his address so that I can write to him. He does not go to church, but God spoke to me through you, and I will be including some of your message, as a Marine chaplain, in my letter to him. Many humble thanks. 🙏
Thank you for this podcast. I’m deployed to the Middle East right now with the Army and it’s such a blessing to listen to each week. In Church culture the Sons of Helaman are often called “Stripling Warriors.” However, the Book of Mormon never refers to them as warriors, just as soldiers, sons, or Ammonites. Soldiers fight not for themselves but for their country or a greater cause. Why do you think we call them warriors if that is non-scriptural?
I think that Arnold Freiburg who painted one of the first and most fameous paintings of them (commissioned- I don’t think he was LDS) called his painting “The 2000 Stripling Warriors” and that was in the Book of Mormon printed edition for years (it may still be) and so the name of the painting influenced culture of what we called them.
God bless you for your sacrifice! Thank you from those of us at home.
Pahoran’s prayers were answered. He wasn’t sure what he should do about the rebellious Nephites, but the Lord answered his prayers through the epistle of Moroni. Even though the epistle was a bit harsh, it was the answer to prayer Pahoran was seeking.
Sometimes answers to prayers don’t come the way we wish they would. Thankfully, Pahoran’s heart was humble so that when he heard the answer, or read the answer, he was humble enough to recognize and receive it.
It is a great lesson for all of us.
I have learned, from having my son die in his 30’s, that death isn’t has terrible as we might think. Many people that die are able to do more on the other side than they can here. We have seen so many miracles and blessings since he died. We are sure he has a lot to do with that.i guess what I’m trying to say is living is not always what needs to happen to help your family progress eternally. So even though many Nephites died during the war and the stripling warriors lived, the ones who died may have had a big influence on why they lived.
As you guys always ask, I listen to the podcast every now and than while driving. The last month worth of podcast did my Family and I listen during our 2.000 kilo meter vacation trip through Germany. You and your guest are awesome, we learned a lot and felt the spirit. When I talk to other members in my ward or the youth of our stake (if they understand English) I always recomment them to give our podcast a try. Thanks for your work.
This was absolutely what I needed to hear today. Love how you all mentioned grace so often. Thank you 🙏
Dr Top I worked for your grandfather, Norman Top, in Idaho Falls back in the early 70's. I'm sure he's watching over your family and very pleased with the direction you've taken in your life! Thank you so much for this podcast! It was very enlightening to see these chapters in a different light! I'm married to a Viet Nam veteran, who understands how war works. He is very patriotic and struggles to watch what is happening in our nation right now! Thank you again!
Thank you profoundly for teaching me each week to view these scriptures with a little more depth and a lot more humanity! I appreciate you and your podcast more than you know!
Thanks again Hank and John for such delightful learning and wisdom especially with Professor Justin Top.
Thanks to each of you for these wonderful enlightening discussions. I always come away with new insights and a greater desire to study the scriptures with greater intent! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Just an excellent podcast with an excellent guest. I loved it! Thank you.
My husband and I served as military relations missionaries assigned to the Coast Guard Academy but we also worked at a sub and a naval base. Loved hearing Dr. Top’s perspective with his military experience and as a psychologist. Great choice for these chapters. Listen every week. Thank you!
so amazing -- thank you for your practical comments and interpretations!!
I have learned many things through these chapters with all of you. The significant thing I realized is the amazing character of Moroni for even including chapter 60 in the Book Of Mormon! WOW, he lets us see that even the Chief Captain, can get frustrated.
Thank you all, this is definitely in my top 10 podcasts. Very good.
OMG, this was such an awesome lesson!!! I think I will have to listen to it again. Thank you all so much for your insights!! Thank you, thank you!! ❤🇨🇦
Carefully read Alma60:1 and you will see that Moroni’s letter is to all the leadership in Zarahemla with Pahoran at the head of the government. Recognize it is not a letter just toPahoran but to the government leadership.
Yes! I just made this point to another comment. Moroni was NOT wrong. He was rightfully calling out the kingmen in the government.
Im a few weeks behind! At the beginning of the year I thought every week almost 2 whole hours? Now Im listening to them 2 or 3 times and have to take notes. You have changed my views and increased my love and reliance on the book of mormon. Thank you for the lessons as we prepare for battles we dont want to ( but will) fight.
Just amazing!!! Thank you for having the transcripts for each podcast. These lessons are so inspiring, we want to study each one over and over!
This is my favorite episode! I’ve listened to it twice! Thank you so much for doing this podcast. So amazing and uplifting. Cindy from Yorktown, VA
Thank you!!! I'm clean out of superlatives! Thank you All 😁😁😁
Hank and John, your show is my favorite one to listen to. I look forward to each episode with great anticipation, and the insights from each guest are amazing!
I love that Mormon decided to include these letters between Moroni and Pahoran, in connection with the comment that Mormon made about Moroni in Alma 48:17. In spite of Moroni giving in to the natural man and getting angry in this letter, Mormon still chose to write about him that, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be like unto Moroni, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever.
That gives me hope that, in spite of my imperfections, I can still overcome the natural man and “be like unto Moroni”, I can shake the very powers of hell.
Thank you for all that you do to share your insights and, especially, your testimonies with me each week!
Great discussion! I learned so much. Thank you again!
Oh how we could use Abraham Lincoln in today’s politics. He is my favorite president of the United States. Thank you for a great podcast again. It is helping me with my RS lesson … elder Rasbands talk Words Matter!
such insight on the war chapters. It's finally come around to help me understand why they're included in the Bok of Mormon. Just another way to add my testimony of the Book of Mormon!
Thanks for all the insight.
I’ve listened to this podcast twice this week, and have learned each time.
It's also interesting to think that holding the Aaronic priesthood is holding the power of the ministering angels. That is definitely invaluable in the battle stories told at the beginning of this episode. It's like the story in the bible with Elijah - "They that be with us are more than they that be with them".
Thank you for doing these podcasts. Love them, All of your guests are so wonderful.
Great podcast. You mentioned that Moroni’s letter states that the Lord told him to take his armies and go against the leaders of the government if they didn’t repent. I don’t believe this was a mistake on Moroni’s part. While Pahoran was innocent, those who usurped power did indeed need Moroni to bring his armies against them. The Lord didn’t give him all the details, but did inspire him in what he needed to do next.
Sur enjoyed the dialogue between the three of you. thank you so very much.
Listening from American Fork, Utah! I thought I had gleaned so much from the War chapters (much of it from John’s book) that I would just be enjoying the discussion but I have learned lots more. Thank you.
There is some chatter on here about Moroni and Pahoran. I loved the insights that were shared about the human tendencies we all have. It helped me apply those chapters to my own life in a new way. I would refer the person who thinks Pahoran is weak, to Elder Bednar’s April 2018 conference address about meekness. He uses Pahoran as an example of Christ-like meekness and meekness is not weakness.
We don’t have to pick sides in these chapters. Mormon gives us both sides of the story and I bet he hopes we learn from both men, especially in a world of war -the war of words and information barraging us all the time.
There is such a political lesson with the king men solution. I’m not sure the issues of being in the war,but with the overcoming of the king men threat and how the king men they made their own decision to die rather than fight for liberties and peace. The king men were summarily dispatched, no appealing to The Hague for a long drawn out trial. The king men were a terrorist threat, no habeas corpus issues. There was no discovery period to find the fault leaders or discerning of which or who was at fault, I’m sure these characters had been known already. The time element is not discussed but the work was done and then back to the war. Mormon’s coverage was perfect in its description and conclusion .
I often think that American criminals could be handled the same way.
I wonder also if Captain Moroni, in his censure of Pahoran, was so direct and harsh because of dealing with such already troublesome circumstances. He was not correct that Pahoran went astray, but was correct the situation was dire and needed to be addressed.
Thanks, John, for the insights into Moroni's situation reflected in the story in Follow Him Favorites. Thanks to your dad for his service; thank you to they many, like Moroni who have served so that we can dance.
Chapter 63: 8 has anyone else wondered if this is how Hawaii and the other islands over in that region became populated?
Oral traditions in the South Pacific support this idea. There's even a book called, 'Hagoth: Father of Polynesia'
Are there any islands there in that region or is it just Hawaiian islands?
The letter is not just for Pahoran. Pahoran was the head, so the letter to him , not only for him
Ye is plural.
And Moroni mentions others,also.
Great insights!! I love your lessons.
It's interesting to think that our bishops are modern day Helamans. They are the captains of our youth 😃
Despite Moroni’s harsh words, I find it instructive that Mormon still says of him that he “was a man of a perfect understanding”, and that he “was firm in the faith of Christ”. Also, Mormon says that the very powers of hell would be shaken forever if all men were like him. Pahoran was also a great man to have taken such a lashing with such humility. I think that, rather than saying he had grace (which Christ gives), he had charity (which we’re commanded to have).
Another great episode!
Fantastic lesson
Wonderful! I learned so much. Thank you.! God bless you.
Amazing discussions
Thank you
I really enjoyed Justin Top.
Congrats Brother Top and wife for those 11 kids, what an example.
48:00 I hope that I never have to be humbled due to my thoughts and actions but that my love for our Savior propels me enough to be humble
Pahoran's letter was carefully crafted and not his first response.
Amazing!!!
I love you guys and I say this with all due respect, but in my opinion, you are being pretty ungenerous to Moroni and too generous to Pahoran. The reality is that Moroni and his armies had been woefully neglected, and Moroni says in verse 6: "And now behold, we desire to know the cause of this exceedingly great neglect; yea, we desire to know the cause of your thoughtless state." He never accuses anyone, but just explains the reality of the situation and says in other words: "If this is what is happening, here is what I am going to do. He always leaves the door open for another explanation which is obvious because he sent the last letter for help rather than marching on Zarahemla. The big question I have is why did Pahoran wait until he got the last letter before sending word to the leader of the armies to ask for help or at least warn Moroni that no more food or men would be coming? Pahoran says "And now, Moroni, I do joy in receiving your epistle, for I was somewhat worried concerning what we should do, whether it should be just in us to go against our brethren." I don't judge Pahoran for being uncertain, but it was the conviction and leadership of Moroni in his last desperate plea for action that got Pahoran moving at last in the right direction. Moroni is, as always, the hero of the story, and didn't do anything wrong as far as I am concerned. I am open to response if anyone would like to give one.
Thinking about this, I really think the answer to this dilemma is grace. I don't know that we really have enough information about this situation to truly make a judgment either way. I do feel, however, that these scriptural accounts give us so much material and so many insights to use to apply them to our lives in the very ways the Spirit prompts us to do when we read them. Because of that, I think any interpretation is a personal matter and I would hope for grace for both the characters involved and for my expression of what I may have learned from it. Thanks for your comment!
Yes! This passage is instructive as presented for our personal lives, but I don't think we should criticize Moroni. There were thousands depending on him for their lives. He didn't have time for a lot of back and forth polite correspondence. It's also an example of how we need to take action in times of political unrest.
Moroni was wrong at naming Pahorna but he was correct that all he said was correct against the lesser judges that made Pahoran had to leave Zarahemla and go into hiding. Bad governors (please notice the plural)
Pahoran even says in his response that he is grateful for Moroni’s words and he is correct in calling out the lower judges. 26:34
@@davidnightingale146 That's what I wanted to point out as well! I believe Moroni's revelation was sound against the lower judges. He just didn't know, and was concerned that Pahoran was also included in that. But I really think we shouldn't discredit the revelation he received- this was Moroni (whom, though he isn't perfect, if all of us were like him, Satan would have no power over us)- I believe he KNEW revelation when he received it.
I agree. Moroni was not wrong. The letter was not a personal attack on Pahoran. He said he was addressing his letter to ALL the government leaders. And he says that he recognized that the kingmen were the main problem. But Pahoran is the chief governor, the buck stops with him. Pahoran was a good man, but a weak leader. He didn't take action until Moroni prodded action.
Thank you so much for this. I really learned a lot.
Many comments highlight the issue of being quick to judge based on inadequate, insufficient, information
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Why do we call them “stripling warriors” ? Helaman only refers to them as young men, men, my little sons, sons, sons of the people of Ammon, and once as soldiers. The word warrior is only used in the Book of Mormon twice. Once in 2 Nephi 19 quoting Isaiah referring to a generic warrior and once in Alma 51:31 where it describes the super strong and skilled men fighting with Teancum. Helamen’s little sons had never fought before and were little and young. They are never referred to as warriors and so I am wondering how this label started in LDS culture. In Joseph Smith’s day warrior was the popular term used to describe Native American fighters. But Joseph does not use warrior when interpreting the stories about Helaman’s 2000 sons. Why do we?
What kind of pack animals were used during the war years?
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You lost me until you clarified that Moroni was actually right.
For a while there your discussion was becoming a "Moroni is a bad guy", like so many of the "Nephi was a bad guy" discussions we hear at Church.
Moroni was not influenced by the devil at all according to my reading of these chapters. If he was he would be acting like Amalikiah.
I think we need to be careful in our comments about those who say what the Lord would say if He was in their situation. The Lord expressed justified anger many times, I bet we could deconstruct some of His comments as being insensitive if we wanted to, but of course He was never insensitive.
Listening further and you keep criticizing Moroni.
I find that very disturbing.
We need more Moroni's today, more people that will hold their public representatives to account for failing in their duty.
Moroni and his soldiers were close to death every day, many of them did die defending those in Zarahemla, and they weren't doing their job. He was totally inspired in what he said and it seems to me that Pahoram understands the duty the government has just as well as Moroni.