One of the stunning moments in this for me was learning that Fulke Greville -- who seemed quite an admirable chap -- wished most to be remembered for being "the master of Ben Jonson and Shakespeare" ... and yet traditional scholars apparently have not the slightest curiosity about what he might have meant by that, or what his connection to those two writers might have been.
Fulke Greville as "master" of Shakespeare and Jonson: might it indicate he was their initiator into Rosicrucianism or Freemasonry? But why would he trumpet such prestige?
Many people find Sidney's sonnet sequence to be quite brilliant. It's intricately structured on so many levels and many witty and beautiful turns of phrase.
I agree, and it's part of the reason I wonder if Sidney might be over-caricaturized and underestimated by Oxfordians. His sonnets aren't bad at all. In fact, what I get from them is that there was a lot more going on in him than he's given credit for. To tell the truth, I wonder if that might have been some of the friction between him and Oxford -- their being in some ways alike. Frankly, like "Shakespeare" he comes across as pretty moody and depressed ... and like Oxford, he seemed to resent the superficiality of being seen as basically a shallow, glamorous "boy toy". (I recall a quote where he bitterly said something like, "Her Majesty will like me as long as I'm in a nice doublet and hose.")
Very entertaining and informative for anyone who has not done in depth reading on these characters - thanks all concerned and SOF for posting. Even though it over-ran, so much had to be skimmed over sadly : Some interesting things not mentioned include that Philip Sydney was the first choice of William Cecil (Burghley) to marry his daughter Anne until he hit upon making her a countess by marriage to his ward Oxford (and himself a Baron to have the required rank to do so - echoes of Bertram Alls well that ends well). Philip Sydney's widow Frances (daughter of 'spymaster' Francis Walsingham) went on to become Penelope Rich's sister in law by marrying, as her second husband, Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex. Penelope and Robert Devereux were the children of Lettice Knollys who became 'Aunty Leicester' by marrying Robert Dudley after their father died (poisoned some said maliciously by Leicester) much to Queen Elizabeth's outrage (she banished both from court, though later relented on Leicester). Lettice was the daughter of Elizabeth's longtime lady in waiting and bloodline first cousin Katherine Knollys, nee Carey, the daughter of Mary Boleyn - some strongly believe she was in fact the daughter of Henry VIII (Mary Boleyn having been his mistress) and therefore an older half-sister (but illegitimate) of the Queen herself. This made Penelope and Robert 'family' given that Elizabeth's mother and Uncle, George (Boleyn), had both been executed in disgrace, while Mary their sister escaped.
Fantastic exciting and fast paced panel about these characters who as you said are connected with each other but none with WS. I love the common backdrop of the Blue Boar Tavern a nice layer. Everyone was awesome thank you.
Another fascinating talk at the Blue Boar Tavern. As Tom says at 25:05 there is nothing specific that leads us to believe "Sweet Swan of Avon" from Jonson's poem in the First Folio is referring to the river in Warwickshire, but two lines just below that phrase we are led to another river where "Eliza" and "James" were entertained by "those flights": the Thames. I believe contemporary readers of the First Folio would have put these together to realize that Hampton Court was being referred to, not some distant river in the countryside. I have a different interpretation of Greville's wish to be known as the "Master" of Shakespeare and Jonson (25:19 to 25:37). I believe it was a reference to membership in the Rosicrucian brotherhood rather than to any literary mentorship. Here is my reasoning. The dedicatees of the First Folio were addressed as "brethren" and not "brothers" suggesting membership in a secret society which refers to each other as Brethren. In the same Epistle Dedicatory, Jonson (using Heminge's and Condell's names as allonyms) called Shakespeare a "worthy Friend and Fellow". The use of the upper-case F in "Fellow" is another hint that the dedicatees, Jonson, and "Shakespeare" were members of the same organization. Though Jonson was still alive when Greville died, it is possible that given the strong clues at least three of these men - the Herbert brothers, Jonson, and "Shakespeare" - were members of or leaders in the early Rosicrucian movement, that Greville was someone who succeeded another member as the primary leader of the same group? That would explain his deathbed wish to be known as the "Master" of "Shakespeare" and Jonson. And this strange request could also hint at in-fighting among members to see who would succeed Greville, if his leadership in the group was challenged. Those are interesting possibilities. There is more evidence this may be true. William Herbert is believed in some circles to have been an early Grandmaster of the Freemasons. The funeral procession of Anthony Sayer, the first Grandmaster of the Premier Grand Lodge of England -formed out of three other lodges in 1717 - started at Shakespeare's Head tavern located in Grosvenor Square. That is really suggestive Sayer knew something which has been speculated about for a long time: that "Shakespeare" was a Freemason. I believe that Tom is correct in that Susan Vere Herbert had access to the unpublished manuscripts and was instrumental in publishing the First Folio (29:13). But I do not think that Greville had a hand in the publication of the book. It is more probable that Jonson under the direction of the Herbert brothers and Susan edited the First Folio. Jonson had practical experience by editing and publishing a folio edition of his own Works in 1616, making it a "practice run" in anticipation of editing and publishing the First Folio at a later date. The front matter of the book was written by Jonson and he recruited his associates Leonard Digges, James Mabbe, and Hugh Holland, all were active at that time, to add their puzzling poems to the front matter. Philip Sidney and de Vere were embroiled in the infamous "tennis court quarrel", so it is unlikely that any close associate of Sidney's like Greville would want to have anything to do with publishing works by de Vere, no matter how great they were. Just a thought. In that quarrel, Sidney was allegedly called a "puppy". I love that Dorothea described a sketch by Monty Python (42:22). It adds a great deal to the conversation. I wonder if anyone has noticed that the only image of "Robert Green" from the pamphlet Phoebe talks about shows him writing from right to left? (1:01)
The tennis court event is a maguffin. Look into Oxford's Megliora Spero. Oxford and Phil aren't the enemies they've been painted by history to be. They are rivals through and through.
They could have easily gone over 2 hours, what with all the material to cover. Fascinating stuff! One thing we need is a chronological list of all the Harvey-related material -- the "pamphlet wars" -- so that we can read them all in sequence and understand exactly what is being hashed out in the back-and-forth of these guys (and their pseudonyms). Attempting to get a sense of what's going on by reading them out-of-sequence is probably what mucks up people's understanding of it all.
In general, I think all of these Blue Boar sessions would benefit from either a) being about 3x longer, or b) having 1/3rd as many topics on the agenda; and/or c) happening 3x more frequently! You’re right: fascinating stuff.
There’s a nice summary about 1hr of Fulke on the WarwickFineArt TH-cam channel..an interesting point they made that I wasn’t aware of was the friction with Robert Cecil.When Cecil died Fulke quickly ascended at Court
There is argument even among English people about the pronunciation of "Shrewsbury". I use that derived from "shrew". My countryman uses the posh version IMO 🙂
Three of those guys were pretty much lifetime enemies of Oxford...I'm not sure about Penelope Rich's attitude? A mistress of Southampton AND Oxford? Essex's sister in any case! Fascinating stuff! I like the idea of Philip Sidney "taking a bullet" for Oxford!
When Dorothea is asked if she liked Sydney..and she said she tried very hard…it’s hard to like any of them,even de Vera.The court is really a lot of gangsters clustered round the Don..or Doness in this case
Apparently that the Shakespeare who associated from the theatre was a different man from the strafford man. Most likely it was referring to the theatre man but picked a wrong man to cover up. theatre's man.
One of the stunning moments in this for me was learning that Fulke Greville -- who seemed quite an admirable chap -- wished most to be remembered for being "the master of Ben Jonson and Shakespeare" ... and yet traditional scholars apparently have not the slightest curiosity about what he might have meant by that, or what his connection to those two writers might have been.
Fulke Greville as "master" of Shakespeare and Jonson: might it indicate he was their initiator into Rosicrucianism or Freemasonry? But why would he trumpet such prestige?
Fulke is buddies with Philip Sidney. Much to be investigated here.
Who were the Folios dedicated to? What is their relationship to Philip Sidney?
Good format--it works well!
You guys are a fun bunch!
Many people find Sidney's sonnet sequence to be quite brilliant. It's intricately structured on so many levels and many witty and beautiful turns of phrase.
I agree, and it's part of the reason I wonder if Sidney might be over-caricaturized and underestimated by Oxfordians. His sonnets aren't bad at all. In fact, what I get from them is that there was a lot more going on in him than he's given credit for. To tell the truth, I wonder if that might have been some of the friction between him and Oxford -- their being in some ways alike. Frankly, like "Shakespeare" he comes across as pretty moody and depressed ... and like Oxford, he seemed to resent the superficiality of being seen as basically a shallow, glamorous "boy toy". (I recall a quote where he bitterly said something like, "Her Majesty will like me as long as I'm in a nice doublet and hose.")
Very entertaining and informative for anyone who has not done in depth reading on these characters - thanks all concerned and SOF for posting. Even though it over-ran, so much had to be skimmed over sadly : Some interesting things not mentioned include that Philip Sydney was the first choice of William Cecil (Burghley) to marry his daughter Anne until he hit upon making her a countess by marriage to his ward Oxford (and himself a Baron to have the required rank to do so - echoes of Bertram Alls well that ends well). Philip Sydney's widow Frances (daughter of 'spymaster' Francis Walsingham) went on to become Penelope Rich's sister in law by marrying, as her second husband, Robert Devereux, Earl of Essex. Penelope and Robert Devereux were the children of Lettice Knollys who became 'Aunty Leicester' by marrying Robert Dudley after their father died (poisoned some said maliciously by Leicester) much to Queen Elizabeth's outrage (she banished both from court, though later relented on Leicester). Lettice was the daughter of Elizabeth's longtime lady in waiting and bloodline first cousin Katherine Knollys, nee Carey, the daughter of Mary Boleyn - some strongly believe she was in fact the daughter of Henry VIII (Mary Boleyn having been his mistress) and therefore an older half-sister (but illegitimate) of the Queen herself. This made Penelope and Robert 'family' given that Elizabeth's mother and Uncle, George (Boleyn), had both been executed in disgrace, while Mary their sister escaped.
Fantastic exciting and fast paced panel about these characters who as you said are connected with each other but none with WS. I love the common backdrop of the Blue Boar Tavern a nice layer. Everyone was awesome thank you.
Great to see this arrive … Perfect for a Sunday ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Great stuff . Thanks
Another fascinating talk at the Blue Boar Tavern.
As Tom says at 25:05 there is nothing specific that leads us to believe "Sweet Swan of Avon" from Jonson's poem in the First Folio is referring to the river in Warwickshire, but two lines just below that phrase we are led to another river where "Eliza" and "James" were entertained by "those flights": the Thames. I believe contemporary readers of the First Folio would have put these together to realize that Hampton Court was being referred to, not some distant river in the countryside.
I have a different interpretation of Greville's wish to be known as the "Master" of Shakespeare and Jonson (25:19 to 25:37). I believe it was a reference to membership in the Rosicrucian brotherhood rather than to any literary mentorship. Here is my reasoning.
The dedicatees of the First Folio were addressed as "brethren" and not "brothers" suggesting membership in a secret society which refers to each other as Brethren. In the same Epistle Dedicatory, Jonson (using Heminge's and Condell's names as allonyms) called Shakespeare a "worthy Friend and Fellow". The use of the upper-case F in "Fellow" is another hint that the dedicatees, Jonson, and "Shakespeare" were members of the same organization. Though Jonson was still alive when Greville died, it is possible that given the strong clues at least three of these men - the Herbert brothers, Jonson, and "Shakespeare" - were members of or leaders in the early Rosicrucian movement, that Greville was someone who succeeded another member as the primary leader of the same group? That would explain his deathbed wish to be known as the "Master" of "Shakespeare" and Jonson. And this strange request could also hint at in-fighting among members to see who would succeed Greville, if his leadership in the group was challenged. Those are interesting possibilities.
There is more evidence this may be true. William Herbert is believed in some circles to have been an early Grandmaster of the Freemasons. The funeral procession of Anthony Sayer, the first Grandmaster of the Premier Grand Lodge of England -formed out of three other lodges in 1717 - started at Shakespeare's Head tavern located in Grosvenor Square. That is really suggestive Sayer knew something which has been speculated about for a long time: that "Shakespeare" was a Freemason.
I believe that Tom is correct in that Susan Vere Herbert had access to the unpublished manuscripts and was instrumental in publishing the First Folio (29:13). But I do not think that Greville had a hand in the publication of the book. It is more probable that Jonson under the direction of the Herbert brothers and Susan edited the First Folio. Jonson had practical experience by editing and publishing a folio edition of his own Works in 1616, making it a "practice run" in anticipation of editing and publishing the First Folio at a later date. The front matter of the book was written by Jonson and he recruited his associates Leonard Digges, James Mabbe, and Hugh Holland, all were active at that time, to add their puzzling poems to the front matter.
Philip Sidney and de Vere were embroiled in the infamous "tennis court quarrel", so it is unlikely that any close associate of Sidney's like Greville would want to have anything to do with publishing works by de Vere, no matter how great they were. Just a thought. In that quarrel, Sidney was allegedly called a "puppy".
I love that Dorothea described a sketch by Monty Python (42:22). It adds a great deal to the conversation.
I wonder if anyone has noticed that the only image of "Robert Green" from the pamphlet Phoebe talks about shows him writing from right to left? (1:01)
The tennis court event is a maguffin. Look into Oxford's Megliora Spero. Oxford and Phil aren't the enemies they've been painted by history to be. They are rivals through and through.
Would you guys please do an episode about how the sonnets came to light i.e. were found ?
Wonderful chat! More of these, please :)
Very interesting session at the Tavern
They could have easily gone over 2 hours, what with all the material to cover. Fascinating stuff!
One thing we need is a chronological list of all the Harvey-related material -- the "pamphlet wars" -- so that we can read them all in sequence and understand exactly what is being hashed out in the back-and-forth of these guys (and their pseudonyms). Attempting to get a sense of what's going on by reading them out-of-sequence is probably what mucks up people's understanding of it all.
In general, I think all of these Blue Boar sessions would benefit from either a) being about 3x longer, or b) having 1/3rd as many topics on the agenda; and/or c) happening 3x more frequently! You’re right: fascinating stuff.
These are so informative and fun!! PLEASE continue!!!!
There’s a nice summary about 1hr of Fulke on the WarwickFineArt TH-cam channel..an interesting point they made that I wasn’t aware of was the friction with Robert Cecil.When Cecil died Fulke quickly ascended at Court
Elizabeth liked him even before Cecil died. But yes.
Fascinating! is it known what is contained in the boxes inside Fulke Greville's moniment?
Per his epitaph: sin.
Does anyone know anything more about Mary capell and Frances William ullathorne capell? Or cosens?
Another night at the Blue Boar!
There is argument even among English people about the pronunciation of "Shrewsbury". I use that derived from "shrew". My countryman uses the posh version IMO 🙂
Three of those guys were pretty much lifetime enemies of Oxford...I'm not sure about Penelope Rich's attitude? A mistress of Southampton AND Oxford? Essex's sister in any case! Fascinating stuff! I like the idea of Philip Sidney "taking a bullet" for Oxford!
Who, exactly, are lifetime enemies of Oxford?
When Dorothea is asked if she liked Sydney..and she said she tried very hard…it’s hard to like any of them,even de Vera.The court is really a lot of gangsters clustered round the Don..or Doness in this case
Apparently that the Shakespeare who associated from the theatre was a different man from the strafford man. Most likely it was referring to the theatre man but picked a wrong man to cover up.
theatre's man.
Familiar with all of them but Fulke
Oxford’s first cousin via his father’s first wife Dorothy Neville.
"nice discussion"? - no, this was revelatory all along...
Wriothsley pronounced Rose Lee.
These people are trying to push the theory that there is more than one author of Shakespeare's stuff. How is this allowed in universities?
I