Having had about 9 camshafts break or go flat the past year has been a disaster. Sad thing have not changed from what was working for years back. What happened 😡
My biggest bitch is I grew up in the 50, 60, 70’s and we didn’t have lobes going flat. Straight 40 or 50 weight oil, moly or extreme pressure grease as the old guys taught my in the late 50’s because they where Tool and Die machinist who knew the just do it make what you need even used in the 50’s machine mounting to the floor Grout in water jackets just moving water only in very top of block so they could bore the walls way out to .125” wall it all worked yes I know lucky to make 1 go/per cu” saves lots of old junk haaaa. Maybe it’s just $$$$ that has taking our toys away I am thinking more than anything else. M
I still find it interesting that no one in the industry want to adress the obvious issue with flat tappet cam failures at this time. By Billys reasoning cam failures should have been much more common among builders back in the day since more people used them. But its only in recent years this issue seem to have come about. And from the guys actually investigating the cams and various lifters its plain as day that theres alot of sub-par items being sold and the customer is being blamed and left hanging. If cam failures have been such a prominent thing since before time surely people would have gone to roller much earlier. So no Im not really buying whats said here. Sounds more like excuses to justify corporate profits..
You hit it on the head. Manufacturing occurring outside of the U.S. and prices are reflecting U.S. Manufacturing prices. The amount of tooling needed for a flat tappet and a roller cam are not three times as much. And the next step in the evolution is dual over head cams with roller rockers. The process is even cheaper to produce, but the prices are 4 times those of cast flat tappet. Be honest... the biggest cost increases are from shipping. If you made the components locally. The less shipping cost inside the product price. Agriculture is much bigger. How come they are still using steal components? Because they last. Million miles compared to a season. It all comes down to profit. The manufacturers are greedy! Only want more money.
I appreciate the roundtable. But there were no solutions offered. They simply said that everyone in classes restricted to flat tappet cams should switch to roller cams. That's not a solution. And in many cases, not even remotely viable. Why can the U.S. no longer manufacture flat tappet camshafts and lifters of good quality? The state of much of the aftermarket is simply embarrassing. Too many companies are now owned by "private equity" corporations who simply do not give a damn about the customers.
Multiple reasons. If I had to race and choose a class to run in, I would absolutely not choose one that requires a flat tappet. I would only choose a class that runs roller cams
Andrews cams is employee owned as soon as John Passes. Yes the world has changed and all that’s out for a work force are not trained we see it from Wallgreens to restaurants anywhere general help is needed. These people hurt my head when they open their mouth’s man I don’t know how to fix it or why even try anymore. It’s a real shame what we have to work with today.
Still blowing smoke up our ass’s. There’s NO GOOD REASON we shouldn’t be to run flat tappet cams We very rarely had problems like this years ago. And I’ve reused cams, lifters in the “wrong locations” ect. As much money as we’ve given these companies- they can pre order xxxx amount of cores. Also the latest craze about the DLC lifters- this technology has been known about for decades. But they kept selling us crap products, taking our money and giving us a hard time when we did have issues. Especially the last 15 years. Roller cams fail too. Maybe not as often. But the “old technology” worked for decades. Step up your game- have lifters made to specs! Keep hot rods affordable.
The cost to retrofit a roller into anything other then a sbc is what holds most back, BOP or Cadillac, will cost 2k$ maybe more. Don't know about Mopar or FE fords
Does it even matter? Look at Cummins and the 5.9/6.7 it has been flat tappet solid for 40 years and has had virtually 0 cam issues. They changed it to a hydraulic roller and now keep failing engines because of roller failures wiping out cams and causing all sorts of catastrophic failures with it and this is in low mile less than 100K engines. The rollers they are using look like the cheapest things they could possibly buy. I see the same issues in Deere they built flat tappetts for decades never really saw failure issues. Now the new engines are roller and they are very prone to kicking sideways in the block wiping out cams dropping valves and worst case kicking lifters out the side of the block. Couple that with the fact that rollers have lower acceleration rates than the old big mushroom tappetts offered and you have lost performance as well. I don't see rollers as being a be all end all solution at this point.
They have cheapened the whole engine to save on weight as far as the Cummins goes I'm not a fan of them going roller either Even though the roller cams have worked for Duramax and powerstroke for years if you buy the performance cam for a 5.9 Cummins they tell you torun high zinc oil also which I don't understand there are plenty OE hydraulic flat tappet engines running around that never had special oil and they're still okay granted they probably don't have the spring pressure or or radical lift and duration but nonetheless
@Dannysoutherner , a street car is different than racing in a series. In a series, people push the boundaries of what they can get away with. To the point that was made, afford is relevant if you fail a cam and lifters on break-in.
@@Dannysoutherner Unfortunately thats not really a good excuse anymore. Yes the $1000+ dollar initial hit of the roller does hurt but, if you put in a $250 flat tappet and it wipes out, now your out the 250 for the cam, plus the money for gaskets, plus now you have to disassemble the engine and clean out all the metal shavings and hope that everything else is ok, but usually the bearings get damaged and possibly other components. So all that money initially "saved" is now wasted and now you have the same if not more than just going roller and being done with it. Also its obvious that the manufacturers don't care and will never improve flat tappet quality, its been going on for years and theres not enough money(profit) for them to justify re-tooling/ re-designing the cams and lifters to improve quality so just accept that roller is going to pretty much be the only answer from here on out, unless you can find some NOS(new old stock) lifters and cams from 20+ years ago, but even then its still a roll of the dice.
@@briang4470 Really it is the oil more than anything else. Todays oil doesn't work for the most part. That said, I've replaced old ticky lifters with new cheapie autozone lifters, broken them in and had no issues. A little secret - use Walmart 15w40 diesel oil. It is 1400 zinc, 1000+ phosphorus. It is good oil. For a fresh cam and lifters it is said non-detergent is better but I don't know. I've done well with this over the years. 40 years ago, as a late teen, early 20s, we just threw a cam and lifters in, started it and let it warm up. No break in, we never heard of such a thing. When they took the zinc out of oil is when the issues began. Also Castrol GTX Classic works well, it is 122 and 1100 or so zinc phosphorus. I get that some cams come from China and are made from recycled rebar steel but if you can find American and use lightweight valve springs to break it in you should be fine. Break in with heavy double springs is probably a bad idea. point still remains - a lot of people like to rod but that 1000 dollars just for a cam and lifters is often a deal breaker. Yes, I know our government doesn't want us driving as it is, but if there is a demand for something it will be produced, Biden be damned.
I won't bash flat tappet cams. Take apart a motorcycle and you'll find a flat tappet camshaft. That said, I myself don't use flat tappets. I think the reality is, the contact physics of flat tappets in our V8's has been pushed far enough beyond its original duty.
you guys speaking about performance being a small percent. realize this!.. with all the push for ev, stopping IC engine production, you will be crying wanting us performance guys to buy your products, becuz soon the auto plants wont be
Having had about 9 camshafts break or go flat the past year has been a disaster. Sad thing have not changed from what was working for years back. What happened 😡
My biggest bitch is I grew up in the 50, 60, 70’s and we didn’t have lobes going flat. Straight 40 or 50 weight oil, moly or extreme pressure grease as the old guys taught my in the late 50’s because they where Tool and Die machinist who knew the just do it make what you need even used in the 50’s machine mounting to the floor Grout in water jackets just moving water only in very top of block so they could bore the walls way out to .125” wall it all worked yes I know lucky to make 1 go/per cu” saves lots of old junk haaaa.
Maybe it’s just $$$$ that has taking our toys away I am thinking more than anything else.
M
I still find it interesting that no one in the industry want to adress the obvious issue with flat tappet cam failures at this time.
By Billys reasoning cam failures should have been much more common among builders back in the day since more people used them.
But its only in recent years this issue seem to have come about.
And from the guys actually investigating the cams and various lifters its plain as day that theres alot of sub-par items being sold and the customer is being blamed and left hanging.
If cam failures have been such a prominent thing since before time surely people would have gone to roller much earlier. So no Im not really buying whats said here.
Sounds more like excuses to justify corporate profits..
Definitely coming back to this one
You hit it on the head. Manufacturing occurring outside of the U.S. and prices are reflecting U.S. Manufacturing prices.
The amount of tooling needed for a flat tappet and a roller cam are not three times as much.
And the next step in the evolution is dual over head cams with roller rockers. The process is even cheaper to produce, but the prices are 4 times those of cast flat tappet.
Be honest... the biggest cost increases are from shipping. If you made the components locally. The less shipping cost inside the product price.
Agriculture is much bigger. How come they are still using steal components? Because they last. Million miles compared to a season.
It all comes down to profit. The manufacturers are greedy! Only want more money.
As others have said, I'm not hearing about the RECENT problems with flat tappet cams. Crickets....
Awesome guys I enjoyed and learned watching thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
I appreciate the roundtable.
But there were no solutions offered.
They simply said that everyone in classes restricted to flat tappet cams should switch to roller cams.
That's not a solution. And in many cases, not even remotely viable.
Why can the U.S. no longer manufacture flat tappet camshafts and lifters of good quality?
The state of much of the aftermarket is simply embarrassing. Too many companies are now owned by "private equity" corporations who simply do not give a damn about the customers.
Multiple reasons. If I had to race and choose a class to run in, I would absolutely not choose one that requires a flat tappet. I would only choose a class that runs roller cams
It's antiquated technology.
Andrews cams is employee owned as soon as John Passes. Yes the world has changed and all that’s out for a work force are not trained we see it from Wallgreens to restaurants anywhere general help is needed. These people hurt my head when they open their mouth’s man I don’t know how to fix it or why even try anymore.
It’s a real shame what we have to work with today.
They are not addressing the break in oil fallacy.... Lake...???
Still blowing smoke up our ass’s. There’s NO GOOD REASON we shouldn’t be to run flat tappet cams We very rarely had problems like this years ago. And I’ve reused cams, lifters in the “wrong locations” ect. As much money as we’ve given these companies- they can pre order xxxx amount of cores. Also the latest craze about the DLC lifters- this technology has been known about for decades. But they kept selling us crap products, taking our money and giving us a hard time when we did have issues. Especially the last 15 years. Roller cams fail too. Maybe not as often. But the “old technology” worked for decades. Step up your game- have lifters made to specs! Keep hot rods affordable.
Good conversation
The cost to retrofit a roller into anything other then a sbc is what holds most back, BOP or Cadillac, will cost 2k$ maybe more. Don't know about Mopar or FE fords
I would say FE & BOP are now boutique engines and the SBC is getting there. The smart play is to get a factory roller block.
Does it even matter? Look at Cummins and the 5.9/6.7 it has been flat tappet solid for 40 years and has had virtually 0 cam issues. They changed it to a hydraulic roller and now keep failing engines because of roller failures wiping out cams and causing all sorts of catastrophic failures with it and this is in low mile less than 100K engines. The rollers they are using look like the cheapest things they could possibly buy. I see the same issues in Deere they built flat tappetts for decades never really saw failure issues. Now the new engines are roller and they are very prone to kicking sideways in the block wiping out cams dropping valves and worst case kicking lifters out the side of the block. Couple that with the fact that rollers have lower acceleration rates than the old big mushroom tappetts offered and you have lost performance as well. I don't see rollers as being a be all end all solution at this point.
They have cheapened the whole engine to save on weight as far as the Cummins goes I'm not a fan of them going roller either Even though the roller cams have worked for Duramax and powerstroke for years if you buy the performance cam for a 5.9 Cummins they tell you torun high zinc oil also which I don't understand there are plenty OE hydraulic flat tappet engines running around that never had special oil and they're still okay granted they probably don't have the spring pressure or or radical lift and duration but nonetheless
I would say that the cam manufacturers just need to not make flat tappet cams anymore and force the sanctioning bodies to change the rules.
Not all us can afford to go full roller cam setup for our street cars.
@Dannysoutherner , a street car is different than racing in a series. In a series, people push the boundaries of what they can get away with. To the point that was made, afford is relevant if you fail a cam and lifters on break-in.
@@Dannysoutherner Unfortunately thats not really a good excuse anymore. Yes the $1000+ dollar initial hit of the roller does hurt but, if you put in a $250 flat tappet and it wipes out, now your out the 250 for the cam, plus the money for gaskets, plus now you have to disassemble the engine and clean out all the metal shavings and hope that everything else is ok, but usually the bearings get damaged and possibly other components. So all that money initially "saved" is now wasted and now you have the same if not more than just going roller and being done with it. Also its obvious that the manufacturers don't care and will never improve flat tappet quality, its been going on for years and theres not enough money(profit) for them to justify re-tooling/ re-designing the cams and lifters to improve quality so just accept that roller is going to pretty much be the only answer from here on out, unless you can find some NOS(new old stock) lifters and cams from 20+ years ago, but even then its still a roll of the dice.
@@briang4470 Really it is the oil more than anything else. Todays oil doesn't work for the most part. That said, I've replaced old ticky lifters with new cheapie autozone lifters, broken them in and had no issues. A little secret - use Walmart 15w40 diesel oil. It is 1400 zinc, 1000+ phosphorus. It is good oil. For a fresh cam and lifters it is said non-detergent is better but I don't know. I've done well with this over the years. 40 years ago, as a late teen, early 20s, we just threw a cam and lifters in, started it and let it warm up. No break in, we never heard of such a thing. When they took the zinc out of oil is when the issues began.
Also Castrol GTX Classic works well, it is 122 and 1100 or so zinc phosphorus.
I get that some cams come from China and are made from recycled rebar steel but if you can find American and use lightweight valve springs to break it in you should be fine. Break in with heavy double springs is probably a bad idea.
point still remains - a lot of people like to rod but that 1000 dollars just for a cam and lifters is often a deal breaker. Yes, I know our government doesn't want us driving as it is, but if there is a demand for something it will be produced, Biden be damned.
Think everyone went away from flat tappet because they failed before even hitting the road , there's a issue there address it
I won't bash flat tappet cams. Take apart a motorcycle and you'll find a flat tappet camshaft. That said, I myself don't use flat tappets. I think the reality is, the contact physics of flat tappets in our V8's has been pushed far enough beyond its original duty.
you guys speaking about performance being a small percent. realize this!.. with all the push for ev, stopping IC engine production, you will be crying wanting us performance guys to buy your products, becuz soon the auto plants wont be
worthless