Answer to the teaser: There's a map of Skyrim in the terminal and a pair of rimless glasses on the desk. Skyrim + rimless = Sky. Also, from the window you can see that we're up high, in the Sky. That's Jake Finch sitting there and that's Saugus Ironworks in the background. Jake's story is that he joined the raiders that operate out of there, the Forged. Sky + the Forged = Skyforge.
The only little stickler for me is about the Underforge. It is CLEARLY a shrine to Hircine and his Totems. What is something like that doing under a forge dedicated to Kynereth? It's like putting a Mcdonalds next to a Gym.
As you said it’s like putting a McDonald’s next to a gym so people with a gym membership can go to McDonald’s then walk next door to the gym to work those extra calories off 😮
I don't think comparing a shrine to Hircine hidden within a monument to Kynareth as contradicting as putting McD in a gym. Kynareth represents nature, and Hircine represents the relationship between predator and prey - which is a key aspect of nature. So it kind of makes sense that there is a connection between the two - even though one is aedra and the daedra.
@@MrAranton Yeah, but you see, Hircine also represents the perversion of nature. He is the patron of man-beasts and loves to mess up Kyne's natural order any chance he gets. He literally is the McDs to Kynereth's pilates class.
It should also be noted that, in Khajiiti mythology, Kyne and Hircine fought alongside Azura to avenge Nirn after she was slain by a corrupted Y'ffre. They then used his bones to craft a cairn for her body. Thus, to the Khajiit, it was predominantly Y'ffre who became the earth bones that sustain the world, Nirn, and that thanks to the efforts of Hircine, Kyne, and Azura. Hircine was also madly in love with Nirn, but his love was unrequited. His twisting of various aspects of nature, I think, have more to do with him sticking it to Y'ffre and far less (if at all) to do with Kyne and her sphere of influence. And who knows? Maybe the two hooked up out of sympathetic grief after their partners were unceremoniously slain. After all, Morihaus, the son of Kyne, and is a winged man-bull, and Hircine is the father of man-beasts. And in Cyrodiil, we see minotaurs (man-bulls) guarding a unicorn, and unicorns are native to the Hunting Grounds, Hircine's plane in Oblivion.
also in the khajiti version the staghelm that hircine is always depicted as wearing is the severed head of yffre that he wears as a trophy in true gigachad fasion edit: also i believe that there is some folklore tale about Hircine mating with an entity known as the White Stag so that also could be Kyne in some form so that adds to your theory that the two may have collabed on some of the man beasts we see on nirn
Great video. I like how you continued on from where Nate left. The theme of renewal fits well with mortal humans that has to renew all the time, as opposed to the elves that sided with Auriel. I also like the adamantine tower as a spaceship idea
Something that might help make sense of the Convention Problem is that this all took place in the Dawn Era, which, true to its name, represents a transition period between the previous kalpa and the current one. As such, the notion of "time" has yet to fully manifest so you really can't pin down an order of events. To paraphrase a quote from Stephen Hawking: "Describing what happened before time is like describing what's north of the north pole"
The concept of time is basically just a “thing” in a place, and then it is in another place, therefore time must have occurred for that “thing” to be in a different place. So if events at all are happening, even if it is before “time”, you should still be able to order it chronologically based on the order of things being in different places and which order those things took place. This is all just a thought, so I may very well be wrong but that’s just how I think of time
@@hestoceleshat’s the problem though. Without time you can’t really say x thing was in this place then was in this place because that is itself time. It all kind of has to exist with no order of events, all simultaneous yet still separate. The problem is as human beings we just can’t comprehend that. It’a fun to think about in small doses though. Just like what true nothingness would be like or how existence truly began. No matter what belief system you go by we still can’t find a true void. Something had to bang, and surely God didn’t exist alone in a void and if he did how and why? What IS God in the wider cosmos? It’s an existential crisis just waiting to happen.
also it makes much more sense that Lorkhan was simply reincarnated after the execution, he does so multiple times in the mythology so it’s not a stretch to assume that’s the intended interpretation.
I personally think the Skyforge is not meant to have an answer, but I like to think it was an unintentional byproduct of creation, and it's been there as long as Mundus has existed.
Idk if the rocket thing is a joke but it was probably something much more arcane. I thought the ehlnofey were much more divine and magical at the start and became more grounded over time.
Also with the ehlnofey war lorkhan fighting could be like the shezzarine(?) or whatever, a reincarnation or vessel something. If the order is wrong then possibly it was the et'ada instead of ehlnofey? And that's the reason they split when going to nirn.
If Bethesda let Kirkbride have his way, unabated, it wouldn't be a joke. Dude seriously wants to canonize Pelinal Whitestrake as a literal time-traveling robot, and for the Aedra to be Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-esque supercomputer aliens. He wants so badly to change the Elder Scrolls into a sort of post-apocalyptic science fiction, where the sentient races of Nirn have mistaken ancient high technology for magic instead of letting it be what it always was and was meant to be: fantasy. The Elder Scrolls is fantasy, not science fiction. I love Kirkbride, and I think he can and should take his ideas and make his own, new intellectual property out of them. That would be insane, and I would love it! (I also appreciate that he believes Mankar Camoran was being truthful and more or less factual in his estimation of Lorkhan and the nature of Tamriel during his paradisiacal narration to the Hero of Kvatch in Oblivion. I am of the same persuasion.) But to do that with The Elder Scrolls, a pre-existing property that already has its own established identity as a fantasy? No. He can and does add plenty of amazing spice to the lore, but spice should never be the main course. Too much spice can ruin a good meal if allowed to overwhelm everything else. A further note: Though Kirkbride is most famous for his contributions to Morrowind, his official roles were doing the concept art and additional writing and quest design. Granted, these roles are precisely what allowed him to leave such an indelible mark on Morrowind (both in its aesthetic and narrative design, as even Ken Rolston admits in his praise for Kirkbride). Nevertheless, Morrowind's lead writers were Douglas Goodall, Mark E. Nelson, and Ken Rolston. And for his additional writing and quest design, Kirkbride also had to work alongside of Bill Burcham, Todd Howard, Ted Peterson, and Todd Vaughn. So, there were plenty of people who could (and, from the sounds of it, _did_ ) reign him in when he got too wild with his ideas. As Rolston said once, Kirkbride is "crazy as a rat in a drainpipe, which is necessary. Somebody had to be really, really, really crazy, and it's better that your lead designer isn't." 😂
I thought Yokuda and the Redguards (and the Left-Handed Elves) came from the previous kalpa rather than being part of the Lorkhan/Magnus "Mundus" plan?
I didn’t miss much on my first play through in 2016. I am a “check every nook and cranny” type of person. I went to the gildergreen with Maurice but he did make it when I got there. I was fast travelled thinking it would best my chances of Maurice surviving the trip. He didn’t make it and the two people inside died. My second try was a success though. My first play through, I eliminated the dark brotherhood. That’s the one that I was surprised that most people didn’t even know you could do haha I have yet to join the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild but I already know what to expect from watching these videos. No spoiler. I could have play through them this whole time but didn’t. My fault that it got spoiled haha
Why didn't you say what the next video was? Is it the video that popped up in the corner? If I had watched this before when this came out, then it would be the next video, but I'm here a year later and have to scroll all through the videos to find that.
Is it possible the the Lorkhan who fought at the war was his first reincarnation? Maybe it was such an exact reincarnation that they called him Lorkhan again. And then the more he reincarnated, the more "watered down" the soul got, hence the dragonborn we know today. Kinda like a reverse avatar from avatar the last airbender. I like this better than he just survived his heart being ripped out or history being recorded wrong.
The theory that Kyne tried to "reforge" Shor and created Hircine parallels the Magna-Ge (including Meridia) forging Mehrunes Dagon "in the bowels of Lyg" to be a Prince that embodied hope (something must have gone horribly wrong). There are incredible parallels between Kyne and Meridia, and even Michael Kirkbride has confirmed the connection between the two. (I'm actually convinced that the Ayleid eagle many believe to be a symbol of Auri-El is actually a symbol of Merid-Nunda, who was arguably the chief of the Ayleid pantheon before they devolved into worshipping the dark Daedra such as Molag Bal, Namira, and Mehrunes Dagon.)
@@TheBlackRose3 Sure thing! It's on _The Imperial Library,_ in an interview entitled "Michael Kirkbride IRC Quotes (2013)," under the section "On Meridia." Essentially, they are two sides of the same coin (different shades of the same emotion); one representing the grief of loss (Kyne), and the other the hope of return (Meridia). I particularly like the line, "Meridia is the color of his return when curtained by rain," showing how you cannot have one without the other. Kirkbride's approach to TES metaphysics is dualistic (yin and yang; Padomay and Anu), as is evidenced in, "Shor, Son of Shor," which he wrote. In it, he parallels Ald (the Nordic aspect of Auriel) with Shor, and shows the never-ending reflection of and interplay between the two in the kalpic cycles. I believe he is playing on the same with Kyne/Meridia.
Could the Lorkhan that fights in the war be whatever the reincarnations of lorkhan are? I’m not sure if it would be just an aspect of him or if it could just be like a title for one that makes great change. I’m also not sure how plausible it is that the reincarnations lose “pieces” of lorkhan as they continue to reincarnate so if the one that fought in the war was just like the first incarnation he could’ve just been a slightly weaker and different version of lorkhan. Idk if that makes sense
love this theory, i do have a question though, and maybe u answered and i missed it but how does the lunar forge kinda...fit? i ge tthe enchants, and the timing and shors body(moons) but how was the lunar forge made was it made? does it have further effect on lore here, people have alwasy seemed to think them linked as do i and in this video assumedly you do as well my question summed up is wtf is it doing there? hows it get its power? it seems not more or less like other forges and appears in a nordic ruin so id assume them but i hesitate on this given your finding in songs of return about forge not being there originally which i agree with upon hearing this info also is the lunar forge close at all to the ruins on the whiterun plain with the zenithar shrine? ive been looking for a link to these ruins and some lore for ages but could never really find anything solid but cant remember how close they are relative to the lunar forge altho off top of my head they seem a fair distance i guess thanks for the video and theory i found it very interesting and find that this explanation answers my questions of its lore etc better than others ive found before
I don't have a solid answer for who built the Lunar Forge, but here are a few things I considered in regards to it. Kyne’s carving in Nordic ruins 24:20 seems to hint at the Skyforge, so maybe every one of those carvings marks a funeral cite and the Lunar Forge is Shor’s (the fox’s). I looked for other cites based on what each carving depicts and considered that Wayward Pass might be Stuhn’s or Orkey’s, Stendarr’s Beacon might be Stuhns, and perhaps a few more I’m forgetting. But ultimately I decided that they probably just made Kyne’s a clue bc they had already planned the Skyforge. I also thought that maybe the Lunar and Skyforge’s map locations together are supposed to look like Masser and Secunda in the sky, but it doesn’t line up exactly right. Lastly, could be that a key event occurred at Silent Moons Camp like a battle in the War of Manifest Metaphors. Or maybe part of Shor fell there, like an organ. I put strong consideration into this notion that certain locations played key roles in Shor’s life, which resulted in magical phenomena like the Lunar Forge, Alduin’s portal to Sovengarde, Ebony deposits, etc. But I didn’t find anything worth putting in the video.
@@TheBlackRose3 the moon theory was an interesting thought regardless of it not panning out also interesting take on the key locations all inall a fantastic video and frankly the best explanation for the forge imo, ive thought kyne for ages and this fits it very nicely but because ive thought kyne for ages its the lunar one thats always annoyed me thanks again for the video
Answer to the teaser: There's a map of Skyrim in the terminal and a pair of rimless glasses on the desk. Skyrim + rimless = Sky. Also, from the window you can see that we're up high, in the Sky. That's Jake Finch sitting there and that's Saugus Ironworks in the background. Jake's story is that he joined the raiders that operate out of there, the Forged. Sky + the Forged = Skyforge.
Outstanding. I'm a year late but this is my new favorite channel.
I was all wrong connecting the bird to Auriel and missing the Phoenix aspects.
Trinimac killed Lorkahn
The comparison to the akatosh statue is very convincing. I like this line of inquiry.
The Epic Nate sent me here. Love your content!
The only little stickler for me is about the Underforge. It is CLEARLY a shrine to Hircine and his Totems. What is something like that doing under a forge dedicated to Kynereth? It's like putting a Mcdonalds next to a Gym.
When the companion became werewolves they created that. It's simple
As you said it’s like putting a McDonald’s next to a gym so people with a gym membership can go to McDonald’s then walk next door to the gym to work those extra calories off 😮
I don't think comparing a shrine to Hircine hidden within a monument to Kynareth as contradicting as putting McD in a gym. Kynareth represents nature, and Hircine represents the relationship between predator and prey - which is a key aspect of nature. So it kind of makes sense that there is a connection between the two - even though one is aedra and the daedra.
@@MrAranton
Yeah, but you see, Hircine also represents the perversion of nature. He is the patron of man-beasts and loves to mess up Kyne's natural order any chance he gets. He literally is the McDs to Kynereth's pilates class.
He made a video on this
It should also be noted that, in Khajiiti mythology, Kyne and Hircine fought alongside Azura to avenge Nirn after she was slain by a corrupted Y'ffre. They then used his bones to craft a cairn for her body. Thus, to the Khajiit, it was predominantly Y'ffre who became the earth bones that sustain the world, Nirn, and that thanks to the efforts of Hircine, Kyne, and Azura.
Hircine was also madly in love with Nirn, but his love was unrequited. His twisting of various aspects of nature, I think, have more to do with him sticking it to Y'ffre and far less (if at all) to do with Kyne and her sphere of influence.
And who knows? Maybe the two hooked up out of sympathetic grief after their partners were unceremoniously slain. After all, Morihaus, the son of Kyne, and is a winged man-bull, and Hircine is the father of man-beasts. And in Cyrodiil, we see minotaurs (man-bulls) guarding a unicorn, and unicorns are native to the Hunting Grounds, Hircine's plane in Oblivion.
Agreed
also in the khajiti version the staghelm that hircine is always depicted as wearing is the severed head of yffre that he wears as a trophy in true gigachad fasion
edit: also i believe that there is some folklore tale about Hircine mating with an entity known as the White Stag so that also could be Kyne in some form so that adds to your theory that the two may have collabed on some of the man beasts we see on nirn
Great video. I like how you continued on from where Nate left.
The theme of renewal fits well with mortal humans that has to renew all the time, as opposed to the elves that sided with Auriel.
I also like the adamantine tower as a spaceship idea
Oh wow, dawn era lore is a lot deeper than I knew
Something that might help make sense of the Convention Problem is that this all took place in the Dawn Era, which, true to its name, represents a transition period between the previous kalpa and the current one. As such, the notion of "time" has yet to fully manifest so you really can't pin down an order of events.
To paraphrase a quote from Stephen Hawking: "Describing what happened before time is like describing what's north of the north pole"
The concept of time is basically just a “thing” in a place, and then it is in another place, therefore time must have occurred for that “thing” to be in a different place. So if events at all are happening, even if it is before “time”, you should still be able to order it chronologically based on the order of things being in different places and which order those things took place.
This is all just a thought, so I may very well be wrong but that’s just how I think of time
@@hestoceleshat’s the problem though. Without time you can’t really say x thing was in this place then was in this place because that is itself time. It all kind of has to exist with no order of events, all simultaneous yet still separate. The problem is as human beings we just can’t comprehend that.
It’a fun to think about in small doses though. Just like what true nothingness would be like or how existence truly began. No matter what belief system you go by we still can’t find a true void. Something had to bang, and surely God didn’t exist alone in a void and if he did how and why? What IS God in the wider cosmos? It’s an existential crisis just waiting to happen.
Lorkhan didn't survive, he just started reincarnating
Spot On.
The Epic Nate sent me. Howdy.
why your intro logo look like it’s straight outta the black ops 2 emblem editor
also it makes much more sense that Lorkhan was simply reincarnated after the execution, he does so multiple times in the mythology so it’s not a stretch to assume that’s the intended interpretation.
I personally think the Skyforge is not meant to have an answer, but I like to think it was an unintentional byproduct of creation, and it's been there as long as Mundus has existed.
I love your videos dude keep up the good work
Idk if the rocket thing is a joke but it was probably something much more arcane. I thought the ehlnofey were much more divine and magical at the start and became more grounded over time.
Also with the ehlnofey war lorkhan fighting could be like the shezzarine(?) or whatever, a reincarnation or vessel something. If the order is wrong then possibly it was the et'ada instead of ehlnofey? And that's the reason they split when going to nirn.
That's somthing common in fantasy settings, magic get "dilluted" as time passes
If Bethesda let Kirkbride have his way, unabated, it wouldn't be a joke. Dude seriously wants to canonize Pelinal Whitestrake as a literal time-traveling robot, and for the Aedra to be Kingdom-of-the-Crystal-Skull-esque supercomputer aliens. He wants so badly to change the Elder Scrolls into a sort of post-apocalyptic science fiction, where the sentient races of Nirn have mistaken ancient high technology for magic instead of letting it be what it always was and was meant to be: fantasy. The Elder Scrolls is fantasy, not science fiction.
I love Kirkbride, and I think he can and should take his ideas and make his own, new intellectual property out of them. That would be insane, and I would love it! (I also appreciate that he believes Mankar Camoran was being truthful and more or less factual in his estimation of Lorkhan and the nature of Tamriel during his paradisiacal narration to the Hero of Kvatch in Oblivion. I am of the same persuasion.) But to do that with The Elder Scrolls, a pre-existing property that already has its own established identity as a fantasy? No. He can and does add plenty of amazing spice to the lore, but spice should never be the main course. Too much spice can ruin a good meal if allowed to overwhelm everything else.
A further note: Though Kirkbride is most famous for his contributions to Morrowind, his official roles were doing the concept art and additional writing and quest design. Granted, these roles are precisely what allowed him to leave such an indelible mark on Morrowind (both in its aesthetic and narrative design, as even Ken Rolston admits in his praise for Kirkbride). Nevertheless, Morrowind's lead writers were Douglas Goodall, Mark E. Nelson, and Ken Rolston. And for his additional writing and quest design, Kirkbride also had to work alongside of Bill Burcham, Todd Howard, Ted Peterson, and Todd Vaughn. So, there were plenty of people who could (and, from the sounds of it, _did_ ) reign him in when he got too wild with his ideas.
As Rolston said once, Kirkbride is "crazy as a rat in a drainpipe, which is necessary. Somebody had to be really, really, really crazy, and it's better that your lead designer isn't." 😂
It's a big metal slong that mounted Nirn
I thought Yokuda and the Redguards (and the Left-Handed Elves) came from the previous kalpa rather than being part of the Lorkhan/Magnus "Mundus" plan?
I didn’t miss much on my first play through in 2016. I am a “check every nook and cranny” type of person. I went to the gildergreen with Maurice but he did make it when I got there. I was fast travelled thinking it would best my chances of Maurice surviving the trip. He didn’t make it and the two people inside died. My second try was a success though. My first play through, I eliminated the dark brotherhood. That’s the one that I was surprised that most people didn’t even know you could do haha I have yet to join the dark brotherhood and the thieves guild but I already know what to expect from watching these videos. No spoiler. I could have play through them this whole time but didn’t. My fault that it got spoiled haha
Why didn't you say what the next video was? Is it the video that popped up in the corner?
If I had watched this before when this came out, then it would be the next video, but I'm here a year later and have to scroll all through the videos to find that.
Is it possible the the Lorkhan who fought at the war was his first reincarnation? Maybe it was such an exact reincarnation that they called him Lorkhan again. And then the more he reincarnated, the more "watered down" the soul got, hence the dragonborn we know today. Kinda like a reverse avatar from avatar the last airbender. I like this better than he just survived his heart being ripped out or history being recorded wrong.
Do you believe that the Silver hands are a brand of companions that rejected the werevoff curse?
Also you make the most believable conclusions.
Isn't there a text in Oblivion that implies that the tower is part of a great staff or something like that?
The theory that Kyne tried to "reforge" Shor and created Hircine parallels the Magna-Ge (including Meridia) forging Mehrunes Dagon "in the bowels of Lyg" to be a Prince that embodied hope (something must have gone horribly wrong).
There are incredible parallels between Kyne and Meridia, and even Michael Kirkbride has confirmed the connection between the two. (I'm actually convinced that the Ayleid eagle many believe to be a symbol of Auri-El is actually a symbol of Merid-Nunda, who was arguably the chief of the Ayleid pantheon before they devolved into worshipping the dark Daedra such as Molag Bal, Namira, and Mehrunes Dagon.)
Interesting, can you refer me to where Kirkbride confirmed this connection please?
@@TheBlackRose3 Sure thing! It's on _The Imperial Library,_ in an interview entitled "Michael Kirkbride IRC Quotes (2013)," under the section "On Meridia."
Essentially, they are two sides of the same coin (different shades of the same emotion); one representing the grief of loss (Kyne), and the other the hope of return (Meridia). I particularly like the line, "Meridia is the color of his return when curtained by rain," showing how you cannot have one without the other.
Kirkbride's approach to TES metaphysics is dualistic (yin and yang; Padomay and Anu), as is evidenced in, "Shor, Son of Shor," which he wrote. In it, he parallels Ald (the Nordic aspect of Auriel) with Shor, and shows the never-ending reflection of and interplay between the two in the kalpic cycles. I believe he is playing on the same with Kyne/Meridia.
Really great in depth video, love the new interesting take on the sky forge.
Lorkhan survives execution? I dunno. What if it was just a Dragon Break that caused the inconsistency?
Could the Lorkhan that fights in the war be whatever the reincarnations of lorkhan are? I’m not sure if it would be just an aspect of him or if it could just be like a title for one that makes great change. I’m also not sure how plausible it is that the reincarnations lose “pieces” of lorkhan as they continue to reincarnate so if the one that fought in the war was just like the first incarnation he could’ve just been a slightly weaker and different version of lorkhan. Idk if that makes sense
How is that possible if boethiah ate him whole assumed his form and then decided to say well fk it I'll take a huge poop and then he became malicath
I’ve done the sapling before.
Sushang: Did someone say phenix?
The tree, the tree, THE TREE!
New subscriber from Reddit, absolutely love your style of videos and narration, glad to be here!
Kirkbride says a lot of wild stuff so I tend to disregard most things he say’s especially since he doesn’t work there anymore
love this theory, i do have a question though, and maybe u answered and i missed it
but how does the lunar forge kinda...fit?
i ge tthe enchants, and the timing and shors body(moons)
but how was the lunar forge made was it made? does it have further effect on lore here, people have alwasy seemed to think them linked as do i and in this video assumedly you do as well
my question summed up is wtf is it doing there? hows it get its power? it seems not more or less like other forges and appears in a nordic ruin so id assume them but i hesitate on this given your finding in songs of return about forge not being there originally which i agree with upon hearing this info
also is the lunar forge close at all to the ruins on the whiterun plain with the zenithar shrine? ive been looking for a link to these ruins and some lore for ages but could never really find anything solid but cant remember how close they are relative to the lunar forge
altho off top of my head they seem a fair distance i guess
thanks for the video and theory i found it very interesting and find that this explanation answers my questions of its lore etc better than others ive found before
I don't have a solid answer for who built the Lunar Forge, but here are a few things I considered in regards to it.
Kyne’s carving in Nordic ruins 24:20 seems to hint at the Skyforge, so maybe every one of those carvings marks a funeral cite and the Lunar Forge is Shor’s (the fox’s). I looked for other cites based on what each carving depicts and considered that Wayward Pass might be Stuhn’s or Orkey’s, Stendarr’s Beacon might be Stuhns, and perhaps a few more I’m forgetting. But ultimately I decided that they probably just made Kyne’s a clue bc they had already planned the Skyforge.
I also thought that maybe the Lunar and Skyforge’s map locations together are supposed to look like Masser and Secunda in the sky, but it doesn’t line up exactly right.
Lastly, could be that a key event occurred at Silent Moons Camp like a battle in the War of Manifest Metaphors. Or maybe part of Shor fell there, like an organ. I put strong consideration into this notion that certain locations played key roles in Shor’s life, which resulted in magical phenomena like the Lunar Forge, Alduin’s portal to Sovengarde, Ebony deposits, etc. But I didn’t find anything worth putting in the video.
@@TheBlackRose3 the moon theory was an interesting thought regardless of it not panning out
also interesting take on the key locations
all inall a fantastic video and frankly the best explanation for the forge imo, ive thought kyne for ages and this fits it very nicely
but because ive thought kyne for ages its the lunar one thats always annoyed me
thanks again for the video
"Nord Hero weapons are people!"
I believe elder scrolls theology is the best piece of fantasy ever.
Let me save you 30 minutes of your life
Kyne built it, which is blatantly obvious.
🤯
the only thing that makes you worse than any other 100s of thousands of subscriber channel is your microphone
is this comment sponsored by Pop Filters?