I am a Software Engineer as well, and I get emails almost every day from recruiters looking to hire. Here's the main issue: Companies seem to want you to know 7 languages, have 2 degrees and a list of about 30 some skills, plus many many years of experience.
I am a software engineer with over 40 years of experience. I have been fluent in more than 20 languages. I built from scratch C compilers for unique CPU architectures, created my own languages for specific use cases. I've freelanced for a years but wanted to try getting into a software-only development job, not as a manager, but as a 'coder'. I just don't want to have to manage people anymore, just do what I love -- writing software. With all that knowledge, experience, and all those languages... and guess what? I have been rejected for jobs as a coder in languages I've used for decades...! The current HR system is broken.
Age discrimination is a serious problem in the industry. Veteran programmers above the age of 50 have an almost impossible task to get hired unless it is for a very specific project with an extremely unique skill set and you are the perfect match. As a general purpose coder though, you are not wanted. All experienced coders know dozens of programming languages and styles. That is irrelevant after a point. In my 30's, I was so highly in demand I could name my salary. Today, when people realize when I graduated, and how long I have been in the industry, I can rarely even get an interview.
@@pimpomresolution5202 Welp, looks like Accounting it is for me! Not really something I wanna do, but with my current location, it’s either oil biz, or fast food. Plus I imagine in the next 20-30 years it won’t get any easier for software engineers
From a POV of a developer working in the tech area for some time, I think the problem is the hiring process. The requirements are really specific, like +5 year of experience with a certain language, and the tech interview has nothing to do with the actual work.
and thats the problem..if there is already too many open jobs,..they are making it worse! instead they should do everything to invest in potential people and just build them up to the needed level. else they can search forever. their problem then :D I will finish my bachelor thesis next weeks. My plan is to build up media presence and some portfolio sample website and link it. then apply for various jobs and lets see what happens. I mean, it does not need to be google or facebook ...sometimes it is even better to start getting experience in a smaller business and then grow in your shoes and switch to the big dogs later. often you need that I guess. And what I noticed is, that having interest in a lot of programming languages and technologies is great but it doesn't help as much in finding a job as if you are really focused on a niche. focus on 1 programming language and one framework / or development environement. beeing specific helps to fulfill specific needs of a business as said in the video- totally agree
@@TiffInTech It ain't the hiring process. If it was, there are lots of smart people who could fix that problem. America staffed the Manhattan project in WW2! What you think of as bugs in the hiring process are features. This is just a waypoint in the transition of a national capitalist economy to a global neo-feudal economy. Hiring for jobs aren't about find the best person to fill the role and get great things accomplished. They are for handing out patronage.
Here is the hiring process in a nutshell. How many years experience do you have playing the guitar .... I have 3... Ok , please compose a brand new piece of music you can play at triple speed on a flute , but please play it on that white board while three strangers watch oh and do it 10 mins, take your time!
When I run into that, I'm tempted to say, "OK, so I'm not going to need an IDE at your workplace? I can just draw things out on a whiteboard and I'm done?"
Another reason is that the interviewer is sometimes a marketing manager totally ignorant of programming languages. I was once interviewed by a Marketing Manager and his company was looking for Java developers. Upon looking at my resume, he thought I was a Java developer even though I had clearly mentioned JavaScript. Then he apologized after I clarified the misunderstanding and guess what he said? "So sorry about the mix-up Miss. I thought Java is short for JavaScript and both are one and same.Thanks so much for saving my skin in the department. Now, I will only call Java developers for this interview.Sorry for wasting your time.In future if you learn Java, please contact me. Here is my card." The only departing words I spoke was : " Next time for technology related interviews please have a software developer to conduct the interview!" huh...
This causes no end of confusion and is not the fault of the interviewer. The developers of JavaScript were playing fast and lose with the known of Java, to add credibility to their kludge of a product that ought to have been called WebScript, or something along those lines.
Over the course of my career I have seen companies hiring more programmers, but also less willing to mentor people new to the profession. They expect people to hit the ground running, but overall team quality has gone down because people aren't being shown the correct way to do things. There is a lot more to working on a complex system than someone can learn doing small apps for their portfolio, and each company will have specific systems that programmers need to use (SSO, deployment, etc.). Without that mentorship, new programmers really face an uphill battle.
Yeah I've been thinking about this a lot and I see it all over the industry. Hence many developers don't stay at companies long, get the skills they need, and bounce while teaching themselves.
" has gone down because people aren't being shown the correct way to do things " There's also the problem that younger adolescents (22yo) think they know everything and aren't willing to listen either way... I quit my last job because teaching people how to do things was taking most of my time, and that was considered non-productive, as my output dropped. They just want closed tickets...
Having just had my first few interviews myself, really only because I applied through University portals which are a bit more forgiving, the requirements for entry dev positions are INSANE! Who has 3-6yrs experience as a developer usually when they're applying for entry level?
especially after studying..during university you msotly learn theory..there won't be a lot of apps or software written during that time...you need to basically learn programming from the bottom nearly. personally I am bit lucky i nthat case because I studied longer and did more projects during that time and a bit in rpivate..still don'T call it real "job experience". and the disadvantage is, that I am older when finishing my thesis than others
@@TomZentra I mean google and the big dogs can do that..they have the money and power to decide. there are enough people who apply there. BUT I don't get it regarding smaller or medium sized companies...they NEED software developers but keep them out by beeing to picky :D they are not in a position to do so...their fault if they suffer and struggle finding one suited for their wishlist over a process of years then
Oh, this is as old as the profession. I recall positions in 1996 (!) requiring 5 years of experience with the Java programming language (created in 1995).
Yeah, I completely agree with the points made. I definitely had trouble with landing my first developer job, I also had many interviews. Even after years of learning to be a self-taught programmer and freelance work. But the key message is to be persistent and learn from your mistakes!
"How do we fix the interview process..?" Amen, sister. As a software engineer since the early 1980s, I find todays interview process to be nothing short of farcical.
@@jarretebarnett8077 i think you meant interviewers and not interviewees ... unless you mean the candidate is watching the recruiter perform in front of an audience
u usually need money to make money, though. and if it's an area where you need less capital to start (eg digital marketing), good luck beating out the 1000s of other companies as competition.
After twenty years in the Silicon Valley I ran across some job ads written by real idiots. How about must have 15 years experience on a certain processor that has only been out 3. Or a job at NASA for a payload engineer that required an absurd list of rare systems knowledge that leaves you asking why dont you just call the 3 people on the planet that qualify.
Government jobs are an entirely different beast. I don't know if this is the case in the US, but in some other countries, by the time a position like that is advertised, it's already been filled. The advertisement is a legal requirement, so they simply add all the qualifications of the person who's getting the job to exclude as many people as possible.
@@innomin8251 Actually that is common in high tech companies as well. Company rules often say you have to advertise for two weeks to avoid lawsuits even though they already decided who the job goes too. Another common thing is to advertise for jobs that are not funded/don't exist to collect resumes. This is common on tech companies that have continuous layoffs to get rid of older employee's that they will immediately backfill with a younger cheap grad. Not illegal but not exactly ethical either.
sometimes they will put unattainable requirements on a job ad so that they get government funded grant money and can say that they couldn't find anyone qualified. or it's just for show i.e. basically internal only.
@@eliastalks7411 Good point. In the US say I want to hire a non US worker using an H1B visa. I am supposed to show I could not find a US worker to fill the job. An absurd job requirements list gives me cover for not hiring even a well qualified US worker for the real job. You could say the H1B visa worker cannot meet all the requirements too but its really hard to prosecute at this point. Tech companies have never had to worry about H1B visa abuse because our governments are not looking into any of this. Tech companies provide some jobs and taxes which shelters them from prosecution.
Just apply to everything that u think fits to u even remotely. I applied to exactly 100 companies, which took me about a week and then 30 of them invited me to an interview or some other process. At the end, after 2 months I got my absolute dream job (that I am currently working at) and funnily enough they were the ones who had the most insane requirements for an entry level position but in the interview it turned out that the site where they wrote their requirements on was just outdated and the text was meant for a senior dev position. Well, u gotta need luck, but what is luck? Opportunites taken * Chance of success in %. If Chance is low, the only way u can increase luck is by taking more opportunities :)
The simplest approach would be for a group of software engineers to set up their own company, hire themselves, give themselves great references, and place advertisements for hires, so that their names get to be on the kill-list of the headhunters :-)
"simple" except for the whole need-to-pay-tomorrows-bills things. cashflow is more often than not the main impediment to starting a business. it's far more risky than most are willing to admit (other than those who have seen their business never get off the ground multiple times, have lost everything, have had to go back into salaried work, had to move in with parents, etc).
The interview process has definitely changed over the past 20 years as software development has become more popular and things have become more "systemized"... One thing a teacher told me is view it as a series of games. Level 1 is get around the recruiters who are just looking for their cut and HR, who has no clue. Level 2 is convince the middle managers you've got a personality they can work with. Level 3 is the "widget test" which depending on the situation is anything from an informal whiteboarding session to one of those online hacker rank tests.
If you have senior level experience, you will find that you can't find a job quicker by dropping down your pay expectations. Teams want new members exactly like themselves and it is good if it takes a long time to fill a position, unless someone can get a referral bonus.
Being young, you forgot to mention the biggest problem - age discrimination! Not just for software development, but IT in general. I have 21 years of IT experience, in roles including computer operations, PC support, systems administration, and software development. After my Windows 2000 systems administrator job was outsourced to Mexico in 2003, I was unable to find another IT job, despite sending thousands of resumes, and I now work in a low-paying, blue-collar job in order to pay the bills. After being outsourced in 2003, I had only 3 or 4 interviews but no job offers, all of those occurring in 2003. From 2004 - 2021, I've had ZERO interviews, even for low-level PC support type positions, despite all my years of experience. IT is a young person's game, and once you reach a certain age, you're no longer wanted, no matter your skills or qualifications.
@@creb2429 Because in addition to age discrimination, in the IT field, once you are unemployed, you are a pariah, and companies don't want to give you the time of day, let alone an interview. And the longer you are unemployed, the worse it gets. Companies assume that because you are unemployed, there must be something wrong with you, and they won't give you the time of day. As I said in my original comment, after being outsourced in 2003, I had 3-4 interviews but no job offers, because I was already unemployed at that point - hence, I was a pariah. And the longer I was unemployed, the fewer responses I got from my resumes, until I was getting none at all. I've since had to work several blue-collar, low-wage jobs and move out-of-state for one of them, where I have somewhat miraculously recently landed an entry-level, low-paying PC support job in a smaller town. But at least it's an IT position, and hopefully I can begin to work my way back up the IT ladder from the bottom, after making $70K as a systems administrator back in 2003.
yeah I believe this kind of negative-feedback-loop dynamic can happen to anyone. it's brutal. the opposite is true too: some people coast up and up the corporate ladder because their career experience looks great on paper, despite waning skills and knowledge of the modern tech domain. it's crazy.
@@jamesrick7351 not necessarily. all things equal some employers prefer cheap young impressionable minds. software engineering is often treated as a glorified IT cost centre within businesses. second class citizens beneath product managers and MBAs
For someone who just shifted from being an engineering professor to a data analyst or scientist, I am still looking for a job opportunity to break into the industry and rack up experience. However, most job openings require experience. Ironic! Cheers, Tiff! 🥰🤓😍
Totally agree. There's a huge demand for good developers, and there are a lot of bad developers out there. That's why it's hard to land that first job. No one wants to take a chance on someone when the odds are that they won't work out. They'd rather have a proven good developer. It's not fair, but it's the way it works.
I'm not even sure that's necessarily true. I think companies want someone that APPEARS to be a good software engineer. What I mean is it seems like they all want someone that has been vetted by another company's engineering team first. That way they get all the perks w/o any of the downsides because someone else trained the engineer already. On the one hand it makes sense, but on the other they should stop complaining about not enough engineers ha. I also am suspicious of companies saying this. In the US I think a lot of these companies say that so they can hire some overseas talent for less. I have nothing against overseas engineers. I just know that these corporations are shady and they are smart of enough to know they can't go outside the borders if everyone knows the truth, that there are plenty of software engineers in the US. As she said though, once you have that first real job you get hit up all the time. I'm not even on LinkedIn and I still get so many recruiters hitting me up is almost impossible to answer them all.
To get the interview, most companies use automated systems to "buzz word search" to find their candidates. Screening out a lot of good candidates. Next, ageism is a VERY serious problem, so people with 15+ years' experience get screened out. Getting that first job is difficult now, because "entry level" job descriptions commonly require 3-5 years' experience. Don't expect a recruiter or a hiring manager to tell you why they rejected you -- or even that you've been rejected, preferring instead to just "ghost" you.
It's insane how difficult it is to get your foot in the door for a develop job when you don't have experience. And precious few companies are willing to invest in newbies like me so they can get competent developers in the near future for fear of their investments scooting off to bigger paycheques offered by companies that don't invest in their talent. It's maddening and frustrating.
Every company needs to train the new hires. My wife works for a tech company and the "Must Have a Bachelor's" mentality doesn't always produce great employees.
also most university stuff is theory.. I experience it by myself. you finish your bachelor and you are still not an experienced developer ..not even close . buut, you have the paper which gives you access to some more jobs or get the measier..because you have the paper....mostly yes, you are more qualified than someone without proper education in this field..but does not apply for all cases and still you are unexperienced...
The issue is that we spend a year training a new software engineer. It takes time to do, the trainer is not as productive while is training another. You basically carrying 1.5 people for a year. Then when training is done the new recruit who you’ve been paying good wages too while they learn on the job wants more money or they leave.
@@harrypottar-1 Cry me a fucking river. You want to expand your business? You want to ease the burden on your existing devs? Then you have to invest in your employees with training. Also not every trainee is going to leave after they get trained that is a strawman and anecdotal.
I think the disconnect between the two statements is that there is a lot of demand, for senior level jobs. Junior/Entry level not as much. You're really gonna have to be patient and grind it out to land that first role and the reality is that the junior/entry level roles are always the most competitive.
This is great information to know. Some of the things I already knew but it is good to get that reassurance that it takes persistence and hard work to really get to where you are wanting to be with your career. 👍🏽
It is also difficult to land a job when you are an experienced engineer. Why? Because companies won’t pay for 15-20 years of experience if they only need someone with 5 years. You end up going back to a previous company who already knows you, which is not always the best option.
@Tigg in Tech There is a simple reason: Payment. You in the US make about 6 times the money I make for identical skillset, identical workhours, identical education. And programming is the easiest job to do remotely. That means a company would prefer to hire me from Eastern Europe, over someone like you, simply because he can pay me 6 times less. For reference, every time I had to change job, it took me about 4-6 weeks to do it. Which is very short. Also due to how education is set up in my country (Romania), there is 0 pressure to get an early job (everything is free from kindergarden to PHD), no such thing as loans. As such I have not worked a second before having the diploma in my hand.
it's great you are a capable individual with great skills, but why wouldn't you try to negotiate a higher salary or look for a better paid opportunity while you keep doing your current role it's really a waste of your time and absolutely stupid to not reach out for more !!!
@@AtticusDenzil Because in my corner of the world those are the levels. You can be the best (I am clearly not) programmer on the planet, you won't get that much higher pay. Also logically you prefer working in your own country (pension, taxes paid, legal ease of use, etc)
As somebody who was involved in many hiring decisions in my time in industry (1980-2005) I thought you did a good job of setting out the current issues. Many of the screening methods now used are simply a reflection of the problem of dealing with the flood of applications which are now a consequence of the ease of making digital applications. In the days when I had to read mountain of written applications and paper resumes it was much easier to make sound decisions. I was able to make some great hires, may have missed a few good ones but can safely say I only hired one dud. It would be impossible to return to what I did but I hope that better hiring processes can be found.
I'm a 19 year old junior software developer who just finished college in 2020 probably the worst time to find employment and I was really lucky at the start of this year to find a small start up that was looking to take on apprentice developers and I was offered the first position and I couldn't believe it. I really like the company and think we are going big places. My advice is to look for smaller companies who are willing to train you up and put you through qualifications at the same time because what I have found is that big companies only care about CVs but small company's care so much more about the individual and I'm forever thankful for getting this chance.
@@ashley1872 it's probably 2 years community college lol. No way he finished 4 year university and found only apprenctinship, if he was that smart he would know much more and could have gotten jobs from Google or Amazon.
I saw a job post the other day. It required 4+ years of experience in FastAPI. I couldn't apply as I only have 1.5+ years of experience since I created that thing. Maybe it's time to re-evaluate that "years of experience = skill level". -Sebastian Ramirez (creator of FastAPI)
You should still apply for the position. HR usually posts what an "ideal" or "perfect" candidate will have...but there is rarely a perfect candidate. As long as you have the general skill set, don't get hung up on the years part.
@@MrInquisitive what I was posting is a real life example not of an "ideal" or "perfect" candidate, but an example of a candidate that (without the aid of a time travel device) could not exist. I am not Sebastian Ramirez, but he created a technology that he doesn't meet the "ideal" requirements for. That is patently absurd, and points to a deeply broken system. The point is that HR is asking for (and likely filtering on) criteria that may stop *anyone* who is not lying into their organization. This sends a clear signal to would-be applicants that lying is not only acceptable, but is the only way to "appear" as an ideal candidate.
I almost quit my school. I’m so glad I kept with it. While it’s still challenging for me, I am actually getting the concepts now and I am so proud of myself. To anyone who wants to quit: don’t! You can do it. Keep going and keep advocating for your education and future!!!!!💛 thank you Tiff for being an inspiration to us all!
Because every graduate with zero experience think they should be accepted just because. You need to understand, that for every graduate student with no experience, there's a graduate student with SOME experience, or with EXTENSIVE experience. Here in Eastern Europe, most students start working on real projects while studying. Like, I have a student in my team who's only 20 y.o, and he hasn't yet finished his Bachelor's, but he's smart, driven, learns constantly besides his university studies, and he has worked for dozens of projects already. I'm happy to have him employed. And what would happens in a few years? He'll be a senior engineer who'll be applying to jobs globally, taking perhaps YOUR place in your local company/country/whatever. So yes, the demand is growing, but so is the competition. Good luck guys!
It's not that easy. I know many people who attempted the same thing but didn't have the social or the privileges to get into projects in general. In fact Colleges should be training the students into experience every year like the old days. But instead we are paying them 70k without putting us into the field That isn't the graduate fault. It's the system
I've been going through literally hundreds of job offers in my wider area. Often times, it reads as if their IT-department listed up every single programming language, framework, technology, specific application area etc. that their department is using in any capacity, and you better have experience with every last one of them. Each job offer has an entirely different list. It's too specific. Almost nobody will have that exact combination of skills. You could most definitely learn them on the job in a short timeframe, which is an essential skill in a field that's constantly evolving. But instead, recruiters hope to find a rare unicorn that already knows everything.
Headlines are totally misleading. There is a high demand for EXPERT, STATE OF THE ART DEVELOPERS WITH 10+ YEARS EXPERIENCE IN SPECIFIC AREAS. That's the real headline
You are not mentioning the most important think: 100,000+ H1B Visa Employee from India alone per Year! Imaging 100,000 from China, Russia, etc?! What would 30,000 new jobs per year would do to the market compare to 300,000 new non-citizen Global Employee manly from Asia?!
Its not, not really, Its hard to get your FIRST job, but just apply to everything even tangencially related to what you want (easier as an Intern), get any ANY job and then you will be scouted so much that it will hurt you, every year you become so much more valuable after your first job Remember, the average developer has
Companies complain: "But it costs money to train newbies!" So does paying a highly skilled engineer. So does training any new employee. Its called return on investment. The requirements for Entry-level positions are unrealistic. Skilled engineer are in-demand, so often they get the pick. Unfortunately, Human Resources often don't understand IT/CS enough (Sorry HR. Not meant as an insult. I realize IT/CS is confusing, but it does affect hiring the proper engineer/developer).
Some companies aren't hiring based on specific needs. I interview several people every week and we don't even require specific language experience. We believe that a good developer can learn what we need them to learn. Because of this, we gauge candidates on broader criteria, like "If I need to give this person a task, can I expect them to be able to handle it?" and "Will this person fit into our company culture". We know that things change, and we need people who can be flexible.
Same! There are studies from a long time ago showing 10x improvements for individuals and 2.5x improvements for teams that are motivated. I always look for motivation and ability to adapt when interviewing. Flexibility and desire is more important than whether they write comments in a certain way. Also I try to make the work for my juniors a little bit fun to increase their motivation and build trust. I would bet on my people over the elitists who think that everyone else but them is just bad any day.
This was so helpful. Even though I am not searching for a job, but an internship while in college. It gives you an idea of what to expect, why you might have no been accepted, and most importantly that you should keep applying until you get accepted.
Good luck in your search but don't get so desperate in your search that you let someone talk you into working for FREE. There are sharks out there and their goal is to find as many people as possible who are dumb enough and desperate enough to work for nothing, it should illegal but its not. If you haven't already you might want to look at some of the federal agencies (assuming you're in the US) who are always looking for STEM college student. These jobs pay well, great learning opportunities and almost always lead to permanent jobs if you do well.
Whatever you do, at least do 1 internship before u graduate.. Relevant work experience is what's working against me now because I couldn't quit my regular job to do that like
I have coded nearly every single day for 2 years with the goal of getting a job. I don't think I'm fit to be a software developer. That's not because I'm not good enough, but because my motivations weren't right. For the most part, I was just chasing money. I didn't care about most of the things I was coding, I was doing it for the sole purpose that some recruiter would find my portfolio impressive. That worked for the first year to year and a half while the topics were basic and lower level, but as things are starting to get more complex I just can't fake it. For the most part, I do not care about software architecture, database engineering, making an efficient algorithm.. Learning it is hell for me and I frequently find myself watching videos or reading articles and not remembering a single thing at the end because I wasn't paying attention even though I was looking at the screen. I was good at faking it. My cousin manages software projects for AWS and after looking at my portfolio and resume was confident I could get a job. That's the risk with hiring a developer who is just starting out, they can fake it easily at first but most people who fake it end up hitting a wall.
Yep, if you have trouble with those topics, or even hate them, then software development would be a bad fit for you. While it's a shame you spent over a year to figure that out, it shows you have the tenacity to learn a new skill. Hopefully you'll find something else that's more aligned with your interests. Even if that doesn't become a career, you'll have an enjoyable hobby.
True, as a developer for 10+ years I've seen people that are simply in the wrong line of work. First you're doing injustice to yourself, working a job you hate, second, you will stay at the bottom of the barrel on the payscale and risk being fired, not get pay raises etc, because your real skill is lacking and when you need to change jobs you will get into all sorts of trouble - not passing interviews, possibly getting fired in first couple of months etc.
Junior Entry Level Job: Highschool diploma, 30 years coding experience, SQL, Fullstack devops, and willing work to work on a fast paced environment and meet resolve goals. Also, your value as a human being is pointless unless you can code. Good luck working until you are 75 at Wallmart.
Another problems is recruiters posting ads for jobs which require advanced degrees and many years of experience. One such job originally posted in 2016 required 10 years of experience with Go programming language. Go programming language was first invented in 2009.
Cause if they keep people struggling for jobs, it will push the wages down. The more people applying for 1 job, the less people are willing to take to get a job at all. Markets only work when there is a free exchange, not when 1 party can hold the ability to live over the others head.
316,000 jobs over 10 years doesn't seem like a lot, mostly considering there might be A LOT more developers than that and there will be even more by then. The offer is way bigger than the demand in my opinion. Of course, if we only apply this to senior developers, then I guess it could be true.
Especially considering that much of the work can be done remotely, and so you have to consider the population of developers that speak English well enough to understand the tasks. This means every Indian developer, as well as most of those from eastern Europe.
My recommendation to newer developers who have been in the industry less than 5 years is to learn the infrastructure side. If you want something that is going to make you stand out, that's going to be it. It takes a few years to learn the web side but if you want to advance you're going to need to know the entire application lifecycle.
Tiff! I remember the times when you had like 30k subscribers! It's really nice to see you grow! You helped me to finally decide to start applying, and thanks to you I work in frontend
I've been applying to software positions for the past year as I get closer and closer to graduation (I graduate in December). I'm an older student (31) trying to make a career switch from retail management. I've not received a single offer whatsoever. Most companies don't even bother to tell me I haven't been selected; they just pretend that I don't exist. I'm really considering jumping on the JET program for teaching English in Japan as an onboarding process into the country of Japan so that I can get a foot in with Japanese tech companies. It's a lot harder to apply for tech jobs in Japan from the USA -- especially right now when the COVID situation has blocked US citizens from entering the country. No one wants to even look at foreign hires. It would be a low wage, but it could be a payoff in the end.
It’s the same with any competitive industry. It took me 9 years to get my foot in the door…not Dev related. I kept trying and didn’t give up. In the meantime I took closely related jobs and kept trying…till I got in. Once your in…your in! Only need 1 yesssssss!
9 years ?? wow that sucks ... did you consider any apprenticeships or college internship, anything along those lines? damn man 9 years, what has the world come to ...
@@AtticusDenzil 😆 It’s actually much easier now to get in then in like 2005! Now all the major corps have training classes and a few truly entry level positions each year. It wasn’t like that…back then it was like you had to be in some other position and then find someone to train internally. It was classic…entry level position requires 2years experience. But I did get related jobs that gave me great experience along the way. Now I’m like 7 years in and looking for a career change as I know that can do anything I set my mind too! 😃
Coding is way more difficult than it was 20-40 years ago. The difference e.g. between C++ in its original form and C++20 is vast. I got to learn it incrementally but someone new has to learn it in a much more compressed time frame.
But coding in Java, C#, Python etc is orders of magnitude easier than even the C++ of 20 years ago. Most grads I meet would be unable to write a simple C program in Notepad (or vi) and get it to successfully compile, let alone run properly.
@@lordlucan529 True, but also consider all the other things devs are expected to know: huge APIs/libraries/frameworks, HTML/CSS, REST APIs, microservices, threading, GPUs, etc. The ecosystem and surface area is so much vaster. Sure, if you want a Joe job paying peanuts you might get by with a simple language doing simple things, but for the big salaries everyone is lusting for, those require a lot extra.
@@perfectionbox Isn't that how everyone starts - a much simpler job paying accordingly? It's taken me 40 years to gain the knowledge and experience of all of those areas you mention (and a lot you haven't). I do however see a problem in the industry, in that recognition of levels of ability, responsibility, supervision and mentorship have been completely absent where I have worked - managers tend to have a binary view of whether you have the appropriate skill set or not. I guess the industry hasn't grown up yet (and maybe never will).
A cause de ces écoles de reconversion en numérique. Et ces reconvertis demandent moins de salaires. Alors les diplômes en informatique ingénieurs ou masters restent en chômage ou ils font autres choses.
Thank you for this, it really helps me in many ways, not the least of which is just being terrified to just apply for a job... The idea of applying to 10 companies a day suddenly makes it much less personal and more assembly line. Like most things, I think it comes down to me overthinking things to the point of inaction, rather than just doing it and figuring it out.
After a career break (because i had to look after my kids) i decided to go back to the job market. i am a software engineer & unable to secure a job.. i have been trying for almost a year now. When i apply linkedIn shows the number of applicants for that role & the numbers are insane..the competition is SUPER SUPER high & i think nobody wants to hire a woman who hav small kids. Job market discriminates a lot.. i am losing hope & don't know what to do. I am thinking of getting into master's & will then do my phd.. I hav heard university pays students who do their phd..maybe this is the route for me. I am done with finding a software job..The competition is insane..there are immigrants from other countries + local fresh graduates + adult citizens & they all are fighting for ONE role.. its hard, its really hard. Finding a job in this field is like the Netflix series squid game..
I know this is an old comment but you have very real value and opportunity in recruiting. I know it doesn’t seem like a glamorous job but companies are dying for ex-engineers that know what they’re talking about and it pays well!
Tiff you are awesome. This is a great topic. You didn't mention that AGE is actually a filter commonly used by many companies, no matter how experienced you are
The field is overcrowded with people who think they deserve a job after learning how to write a for loop. Solid software engineers who can think and solve problems well are still very rare. Main thing is to know DSA (data structures and algorithms). If you can solve Leetcode Easy and Medium level problems, you can find an internship/job quite easily. Most companies don't care about what languages or frameworks you know. They care about how well you can solve difficult problems. A good general problem solver is much more in-demand than someone whos good at a specific technology.
@The Adjudicator Memorizing Leetcode gets you nowhere. There are thousands of possible questions you could be asked. Whats important is to understand *patterns*. Understand what type of pattern a question is and what techniques you can use to solve the question. For example, if the problem involves trees or graphs, you'll most likely need to use DFS or BFS. If the problem requires you to look up stuff often, use a Set or Map. Understanding what data structures and algorithms can be used to solve each problem is a skill that cannot be memorized, and absolutely shows programming competency. If you cannot solve even Leetcode easy-level questions, then it doesn't matter how good you are at making web apps or mobile apps, you simply cannot perform well at software engineering.
Addiction to cheap labor force ends badly in a just in time economy. It takes only a tiny ripple to be put in a serious trouble when you are a part of that. People who you train are more likely to stick with you when there is a trouble on the horizon. Mercenaries will just leave without even saying a word ...
I think technical interviews where there is a high level system design portion and there is a brief pairing session are probably the best way to go. It’s the most real world like. You will undoubtedly be pairing with your co workers at some point. And being able to mock up how you’d build a specific feature or app is definitely something you’d do on the job.
100 percent agreed about the specific skillset thing. saw this over and over in like 20 different interviews. you either know a b c de f .... or ur unhireable lol. some would say you dodged a bullet by not getting hired but then you realize it's widespread as hell.
What I notice for jobs of analysts, is that most people know the vocabulary and methods, but they completely miss the actual purpose, the core idea of the discipline. I am not sure they know what are the real qualities they have to look for. And secondly, people are used to think in a certain way, a way that fits our world and our social life. Good Analysts think in terms of systems. So, the HR and the (proficient) analyst have a very different way of thinking. One will question, have expectations and judge the other from his way of thinking. This won't work out well.
I have over 10 years of experience and made the mistake of quiting my job for pursuing a master's degree. Big mistake! Now I can't get a job because I can't reverse a binary tree in less than 10min. The whole HR process is broken in NA.
I gave up on the software engineering thing and work in IT. It was much easier to get a job although the pay is not as high. But I can get higher pay with a different role in the future.
I've had an entirely different experience in my software engineering career. I graduated from college and in 2010 and found a job almost immediately. I credit this to my schools mandatory co-op program where 2 semesters you spend working as a paid intern at different companies that you apply for. You still interview like a normal job but the interviewers understand they are interviewing somebody with no industry experience. These co-ops are your chance to make a lasting impression on the teams you are working within. If they like you, you just may end up with a job offer waiting for you when you graduate.
Question Tiff... How to create the cv without experience in the area? should we put the past experiences, or just the skills in dev and the portfolio? thx
you can have a "Projects" sections instead of an "Experience" section. This shows your skills, and tells the employers that you have what it takes to DO the job.
Depends on the assignment. I always ask what the company needs. Most of your CV will not be very interesting anyway though, it is the letter that sell you and how well you have worked with your Linkedin profile. As a consultant I often go to interviews for new assignments and I have 20+ CV's in two languages :)
If we are talking about US. Local software engineers compete not only with locals over the same jobs but with many foreigners that are not in the country.
My experience is that someone who has a history of successful implementation has a better likelihood of successfully implementing future systems. My greatest successes have been outside the specific areas I was hired for. Also, getting hired as a contractor is often a good way to get a foot in the door. And then there is age discrimination. But that's another topic.
When they get hyper specific they are not interested in a long term relationship. Usually their goals is to fill a real or perceived gap. They fill that gap until such time that they no longer need that skill. Then, maybe you can transition to something else in the organization. Companies, at their own peril, are quite comfortable with a revolving door. I feel companies do not develop talent, they simply try to purchase whatever they need at the bazaar.
I've been a software engineer for a little over 10 years and have been both on the interviewing side and on the hiring side and it really comes down to two things: 1) If it's your first engineering job, then the process really does suck for you. A lot of HR/Management people won't roll the dice with you even though most engineers I've worked with like hiring juniors 2) You can't code your way out of a paper bag. It is absolutely amazing how giving "senior" engineers simple coding problems and they'll get completely stuck. I'm not talking about some byzantine algorithm that you have to create, but simple string manipulation or navigating/ordering objects. Nerves play a part, which is why we take problems that should take 10-15 minutes to do and give candidates 30 minutes to do them (and we aren't even needing the correct answer, just show me you know how to get there and get a partial solution). It's mind blowing how bad some of you out there are at this
Sounds like a huge yikes. I just started a CS degree (and my first coding class) two months ago and I cant imagine not being able to do the things you mentioned. I love solving problems and I thrive on challenges. I just don't get it. Although I had a pair programming partner today said they're considering changing their major because they can't keep up with the assignments we get.
@@joshurlay Software development isn't for everyone, yet everyone is rushing to do that. There are so many voids to be filled on the job market. But these voids get 0 attention and the general population isn't aware that they exist. For example, there's a massive shortage of land surveyors (and related fields in geography/drafting) in France. These jobs pay decently well, with good benefits. Nobody seems to know that these fields exist. Instead, everyone is rushing towards commerce/computer science degrees with painfully competitive job markets 🤦🤦🤦.
I've done over 200 interviews at my company, what's craziest is how many of those (2) candidates, when you check their resume, are currently working at a FANG company.
It's even more amazing how arrogant and self congratulating you are! Whiteboarding is useless and do nothing other than create a hostile environment where candidates are degraded. Why bother with resumes and a degree, if all that matters is how well you perform on a problem? Any senior programmer knows there's no simple answer. I once watched a brilliant programmer struggle through a problem I thought was fairly straightforward: square every integer on a sorted list and return the result sorted. When I showed him the solution, he said: "Returning the results in a newly allocated array is cheating!" Had it been a whiteboard interview, the interviewer would have dismissed him as an idiot, not realizing he understood the typical solution is inefficient.
@@bobweiram6321 "Why bother with resumes and a degree, if all that matters is how well you perform on a problem?" Maybe where you work you don't have to produce quality work, but where I am, it's an absolute requirement. If you can't code then you have no business referring to yourself as a senior engineer "I once watched a brilliant programmer struggle through a problem I thought was fairly straightforward" That is an extremely straightforward problem indeed. If this "senior" engineer was really senior, then he would have had the skills to know he needs to ask follow up questions about potential solutions. Being a senior isn't just about coding ability, but about being able to look at problems from a larger scale. Simply not coming up with any solution because he thinks it's "cheating" (whatever that means) is the mark of someone who is not actually senior.
I am getting laid off from my first job after getting a five star review from my manager (who is also getting laid off) and working there for a little over a year. I am so burnt out from looking for a job and trying to solve these silly problems. Even the jobs that don't have me to do technical interviews are so annoying because with my luck I always end up as the runner up and not getting picked because I don't have enough experience. Like what do you mean I do not have enough experience for this entry level position, I just spent a whole year writing over 50k lines of code to try to keep this eCommerce platform that does a million dollars day up and running. IDK it's just so exhausting and I just want to not have to worry about money and program for my passion projects all day long but bills.......
A job is in demand when the applicant pool recedes below the availability. You are wrong in many areas. I did the math on this. There is a .09% job penetration for that field. Thats 1 software engineering jobs for every 1,111 people. Thats INSANLEY low. Imagine a town with 10,000 , but only 9 developers supporting the town. What we are actually seeing here is grossly overworked developers at the cost of what could be more jobs. Then you wont see videos like this complaining "getting a dev job is so hard" This is way too objective and not subjective to the reality. THis field is NOT IN DEMAND. Recruiters are artificially inflating the demand by not hiring qualified people.
This is a problem until companies start giving their screening / interview process to third party companies rather than their own employees, its obvious if the interviewer sees you have more knowledge than him he's not gonna let you in, you think they worry about their company's benefits ?
Companies should really move into looking for potential, instead of looking for experienced and exact match. If you have your basics and mindset, you can grow into any position and meet any demands, if given time and support. (most of the not-so-good companies won't offer much support, so maybe that's the reason)
Note: Went through comments so that I don't violate DRY; not all. Sorry if repeat. No bad review comments please. Worked as Software Engineer for 22+ years. Very recently retired. Decided to become Climate Change evangelist (BTW you had your monitors on for all 8 minutes @tiff). You have no idea how lucky you guys are. But that's for another day. Interviews in general for a _good_ - Number: Can go up to 8 (vmware) - Probably will include aptitude iddle (bloomberg) - can include actually writing small utility at their location (mcafee) Why they suck: - interviewers have _responsibility_ of people they give go ahead. And they have been burned, at least few times. So they don't take chances. By burned I mean, they are the ones who will usually end up picking up after you. - there is no _definite_ test of person's coding ability. You have to test everything. That means asking how you make a jar through eclipse. - if you are entry level, most probably they are going to have to hand hold you lot. - some are just jerks (moi) What you can do? I am surprised no one mentioned this (at least first 20 comments): *contribute to open source*. Have a repository on github\lab. Make it part of your resume. As long as you are honest and it's really your contribution (it is _very_ easy to find if it's not), people will take notice.
Took me about 8 years after graduating to land my first dev job. I did stop after the first 6 months looking for a job. I spent time on many jobs last of which was being a system admin for 2 years. Got tired of being woken in the middle of the night, retrained myself over 3 months on the many things I forgot over time and landed my first dev job.
If companies are throwing extreme requirements at junior employees, that means the field isn't in demand. A field that's in demand will lower their standards out of necessity. A field that's over-saturated will show extremely high demands. The software development field is over-saturated. Until companies accept that they may have to do some on the job training, that's the conclusion I'm making.
Reality is most organisations want their developers to _hit the ground running_ ASAP, and the more experience a candidate is, the higher probability of that happening sooner. I state probability because in practical real world because it _still_ takes plenty of time to learn a team's culture and organisational structure, people and roles, technical patterns and practices, system architecture, existing code base, database schemas, communication protocols, etc. There is of course the counter scenario where experienced/senior developers are undesirable simply because they're too expensive, and would rather take the chance with junior developers hoping they can pick up quickly and "word hard" to get better (i.e. throw them into deep end of the ocean).
Not only. First of all, that huge demand is only for experienced people, while most of the looking for job are inexperienced folk in search for their first IT job.
I am a currently a .NET developer, which is something I never thought I would use, since I mostly specialize in C++, Rust, and Python. My biggest mistake was not getting internships during college, however I needed funds. I absolutely hate the application process since I know it's most likely HR making the job posts. I lost count at how many workday accounts I've made just to apply to one job. Also, I've seen Entry Level posts ask for 10+ years experience. WHAT?! After being laid off early-mid 2020 due to COVID, it took months to find a job anywhere in the US. Luckily I have a job now. Possibly I should invest in the cover letters, even though I find them quite useless. It doesn't help a lot of companies are adopting the Google interview/hiring process which I think does not work at a smaller scale.
I do not care for big salaries, all I care is to work on a job that I like. The problem is that the software industry is highly comercialized which means they want money and fast. I remember in highschool when I was coding with Turtle how excited I was and all I wanted was to code robotics and space stuff, now it's all about fat Janice getting her freshest and cheapest avocado from an e-comerce app or site. It's sad.
@@JohnyVman I really don’t see how you feel good about yourself at all. I work on things that get to Mars. And I hire software developers. But not you.
@@lockwood1976 I feel good about myself just fine, I don't see why it is your concern. You build Mars stuff? More like copium because you suffer from buyers remorse since your boss wants more avocado's on lazy people, at best you will build a Mars avocado delivery drone. Why do you assume that I would work for you, it seems to me that no one wants to hire you maybe that's where this is coming from.
Coding for robotics and space stuff is still needed. The avocado online stores haven't replaced NASA at all. It's just something additional, that you can ignore. There are more jobs in the robotics and space industries than ever before. Don't limit yourself with problems that don't exist. Janice and her avocados aren't preventing you from getting the job of your dream.
Companies now are greedy. They want you to be an expert in multiple programming languages and cloud computing as well. The reason for that is, there are more software engineers/ Developers than actual Software Engineering jobs. Therefore, companies will keep playing this game for a long time. sometimes they will keep reposting the same position over and over. That is why I always believe, network/connection is around 60% of the qualifications.
BSEE, Cal Poly SLO and MSEE from SCU - plus 24 years of experience in Silicon Valley. I've only done RF/Microwave Hardware stuff (only design - period - no testing unless it's my design) - however most hardware positions are a bit too grunt-technician for my liking or too focused with dragging an unwilling engineer into manufacturing - and it's always been an ongoing issue. Many hardware engineers are pretty familiar with this 'problem'. pigeoned holed,embedded
@@scotchrobbins - I went to school with this guy who also got his BSEE from Cal Poly. He just barely passed and got his BSEE (like with a 2.001 gpa). So this dude gets his first hardware engineering job and just doesn't like it - because he's just testing stuff. Surprise. Surprise! So, he quits his job and got a second bachelor degree in Computer Science from University of the Pacific I think. Post graduation, he's only had one software job at HP the whole time. Me? I've been job hopping non-stop mostly because my first two jobs the pay was too low (to buy a house in Silicon Valley) and nearly every job I just freaking hated technician work. I got into management once (promoted from engineer) - but that job was just too political for my liking. I never really escaped hardware - but, I am a full time consultant now - and that is nicer. I don't think I could EVER go back to the corporate world and deal with that nonsense again.
There's high demand for REAL software engineers, not kiddos doing js and not knowing nothing about microprocessor architecture and lower layers of the machine
Have done 22 years of web dev, never had to know anything about procs etc. If you are a taxi driver you do not need to know how the engine in a tank works ;)
@@swojnowski453 As mentioned in the title, the demand for Software Engineering is under question, not development. Software Engineering and software development are two different things.
I like how everybody says and everywhere is written: SW engineers and programmers (in whatever branch, doesn't matter if you are Java developer or PLC programmer) are in high demand. But the main problem is that there is high demand for programmers with: Fast learning, 20 years of experiences, computer science university, flexibility, working 24/7 if needed, etc. And yes, there is SUPER high demand. Problem is: this is like 5% of programmers and another 95% are slower programmers, not much smart programmers, unexperienced people, fresh absolvents or even still students or internists. And for those people there is pretty LOW demand. It is because everybody wants to be a great cool programmer, but not everybody has a genes for it. But they are too blind that they can't see that someone who is working manually can get much better salary because of culture of "Everybody must go to university, manual work is shitty and ugly, we want to be nice and pure, we don't want to be physically bullied, we don't want to be replaced by robots, etc." The last one is bullshit, btw. AI and robotics are quickly growing up, but definitely not that quickly that it can replace manual workers like electricians, builders, etc in the upcoming 50 yrs. Just stereotypic manual work like assembly lines. There is higher chance to programmers be replaced by AI than manual workers by androids. People, please, study what you want to study and not what is "in high demand". Because after you will lose 5+ yrs in university, it will be painfull accept that there is actually no demand for you and your "low demanded" friends, which choose something else is making x-times bigger money than you "high demanded".
Bro you don't no want you are saying c programmers are needed for that for eg. to programm a robot that will work automatically for those industries like electrical engineering, mach eng and so other, computer programmers are in high demand in order to make things easier and faster
You need to be a geek to want to do software. You need to be genuinely interested and curious about the details of software dev. If every challenge you face is a chore, you will most likely struggle in the industry. There are things you need to embrace, and indeed enjoy, to be successful in software. It's a little different than some other fields in so far as it should be your hobby as well as your career.
I agree 100%. I’m not in software but I’m an electrical engineer doing pcb design. All the good EEs are in love with the field and the physical phenomena in play. We mega nerds will go without food, water, sleep or hygiene until we figure out why our board isn’t working. And when we finally finish we get to kick back and research more nerdy EE stuff while the SW/FW teams are hustling programming the hardware to hit our ship deadlines. It’s great not being so close to the fire :)
0:18 - "Why is it so difficult to get a job if you gone to school for computer science". As SW engineer and interviewer, I've never seen a single case. Of course, if you have just graduated you won't get a senior job. But you'll definitely get a junior job. As for "self-taught" or "bootcamp", I agree. It depends on the person. As for why is it easier for a CS graduate to enter the field unlike others: It's not really about how much coding you perform in school. I'd actually say that a self-taught person would have more hands-on experience. It's about the fact that you learn how to think and how to approach and solve different kind of problems. It's more about the core idea of problem solving, not the coding itself. It's about the fact that you study on a much deeper level, how computers work and what computing actually means. You have the core theoretical fundamentals from a mathematical perspective and you have a very clear idea of how the computers and software work bottoms-up. And about the fact that someone can just throw at you some insane task and you'd have higher chances of fulfilling it than a person with years of hands-on experience.
Looking for a job and getting hired is completely a joke . Companies are not willing to train anybody and if you are a software engineer why don't just open your own business?? And even if you get hired how long you're going to last? How many people lost their jobs with Microsoft? Netflix? and who knows how many? The real problem in United States is that companies do not provide any training, why Korean, Germans, Japanese are more far efficient and productive than us? Job is something that should fit your existence your life your future and your economic stability which many don't have.
I wonder if becoming a software engineer is similar to the culinary field. There, even if you went to school, you might start as a dishwasher or prep cook. Then you work your way to the fry station, etc. etc. I know when I went to school for culinary, they promised that you would be a chef right after graduating, but that wasn't the case for anyone I know. Just a thought.
@@AtticusDenzilDev Ops, QA or a cloud engineer is a bs office job? I didn't know that. Link me the tutorials you watch so I can get up to your level of software engineering please.
Aim for one thing to do, not to be a full stack developer. First aim for the language of your platform learn it well, really well. Then aim for the basics of the framework, get to do that and then do your own applications. Publish them and do your researches. Those are the people who stand up.
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I am a Software Engineer as well, and I get emails almost every day from recruiters looking to hire. Here's the main issue: Companies seem to want you to know 7 languages, have 2 degrees and a list of about 30 some skills, plus many many years of experience.
Thats is the problem , by the way i know like 5 foreign languages ;)
That is their wish-list. It is not the person they will eventually hire. Everyone start with unicorns and settle for a decent workhorse.
@@jimiwikmanofficial except for Google, i know one youtuber who got hired there only at 4th attempt.
@@jimiwikmanofficial Good to know. :)
They're looking for veterinary specially to know about animal reactions!!!!
Because they want 20 year olds with 25 years of experience
Meaning they want young people with high experience with lower pay?
@@cazorla82 yes XD
I am a software engineer with over 40 years of experience. I have been fluent in more than 20 languages. I built from scratch C compilers for unique CPU architectures, created my own languages for specific use cases. I've freelanced for a years but wanted to try getting into a software-only development job, not as a manager, but as a 'coder'. I just don't want to have to manage people anymore, just do what I love -- writing software. With all that knowledge, experience, and all those languages... and guess what? I have been rejected for jobs as a coder in languages I've used for decades...! The current HR system is broken.
ooohhh
With a comment like yours, I think I should just continue looking into an accounting degree.
They probably don't want to pay the salary they expect you want.
Age discrimination is a serious problem in the industry. Veteran programmers above the age of 50 have an almost impossible task to get hired unless it is for a very specific project with an extremely unique skill set and you are the perfect match. As a general purpose coder though, you are not wanted. All experienced coders know dozens of programming languages and styles. That is irrelevant after a point. In my 30's, I was so highly in demand I could name my salary. Today, when people realize when I graduated, and how long I have been in the industry, I can rarely even get an interview.
@@pimpomresolution5202 Welp, looks like Accounting it is for me! Not really something I wanna do, but with my current location, it’s either oil biz, or fast food. Plus I imagine in the next 20-30 years it won’t get any easier for software engineers
From a POV of a developer working in the tech area for some time, I think the problem is the hiring process. The requirements are really specific, like +5 year of experience with a certain language, and the tech interview has nothing to do with the actual work.
Agreed!! The hiring process is failing so many talented people.
@@TiffInTech I'm high school drop out and have felony can't find job
and thats the problem..if there is already too many open jobs,..they are making it worse! instead they should do everything to invest in potential people and just build them up to the needed level. else they can search forever. their problem then :D
I will finish my bachelor thesis next weeks. My plan is to build up media presence and some portfolio sample website and link it.
then apply for various jobs and lets see what happens. I mean, it does not need to be google or facebook ...sometimes it is even better to start getting experience in a smaller business and then grow in your shoes and switch to the big dogs later. often you need that I guess.
And what I noticed is, that having interest in a lot of programming languages and technologies is great but it doesn't help as much in finding a job as if you are really focused on a niche. focus on 1 programming language and one framework / or development environement.
beeing specific helps to fulfill specific needs of a business as said in the video- totally agree
Thank you. I thought I was going insane
@@TiffInTech It ain't the hiring process. If it was, there are lots of smart people who could fix that problem. America staffed the Manhattan project in WW2! What you think of as bugs in the hiring process are features. This is just a waypoint in the transition of a national capitalist economy to a global neo-feudal economy. Hiring for jobs aren't about find the best person to fill the role and get great things accomplished. They are for handing out patronage.
Here is the hiring process in a nutshell. How many years experience do you have playing the guitar .... I have 3... Ok , please compose a brand new piece of music you can play at triple speed on a flute , but please play it on that white board while three strangers watch oh and do it 10 mins, take your time!
haha!
got it.
Exactly!
When I run into that, I'm tempted to say, "OK, so I'm not going to need an IDE at your workplace? I can just draw things out on a whiteboard and I'm done?"
Why did I waste my time getting a degree when I'll just be flipping burgers anyway
Another reason is that the interviewer is sometimes a marketing manager totally ignorant of programming languages. I was once interviewed by a Marketing Manager and his company was looking for Java developers. Upon looking at my resume, he thought I was a Java developer even though I had clearly mentioned JavaScript. Then he apologized after I clarified the misunderstanding and guess what he said? "So sorry about the mix-up Miss. I thought Java is short for JavaScript and both are one and same.Thanks so much for saving my skin in the department. Now, I will only call Java developers for this interview.Sorry for wasting your time.In future if you learn Java, please contact me. Here is my card."
The only departing words I spoke was : " Next time for technology related interviews please have a software developer to conduct the interview!"
huh...
Oh wow I’m so sorry that happened to you .. so disappointing!!
@@TiffInTech yes..really hurts
A shitty place like that is not really worth joining. You can do better.
This causes no end of confusion and is not the fault of the interviewer. The developers of JavaScript were playing fast and lose with the known of Java, to add credibility to their kludge of a product that ought to have been called WebScript, or something along those lines.
wtf ahahah
Over the course of my career I have seen companies hiring more programmers, but also less willing to mentor people new to the profession. They expect people to hit the ground running, but overall team quality has gone down because people aren't being shown the correct way to do things. There is a lot more to working on a complex system than someone can learn doing small apps for their portfolio, and each company will have specific systems that programmers need to use (SSO, deployment, etc.). Without that mentorship, new programmers really face an uphill battle.
Yeah I've been thinking about this a lot and I see it all over the industry. Hence many developers don't stay at companies long, get the skills they need, and bounce while teaching themselves.
" has gone down because people aren't being shown the correct way to do things "
There's also the problem that younger adolescents (22yo) think they know everything and aren't willing to listen either way...
I quit my last job because teaching people how to do things was taking most of my time, and that was considered non-productive, as my output dropped. They just want closed tickets...
Having just had my first few interviews myself, really only because I applied through University portals which are a bit more forgiving, the requirements for entry dev positions are INSANE! Who has 3-6yrs experience as a developer usually when they're applying for entry level?
right!? I know! It is crazy - but be persistent and a great company that sees the value juniors have to offer will come a long!
I had the same hiring experience at graduation time many, many years ago. The employers are out of touch with reality.
especially after studying..during university you msotly learn theory..there won't be a lot of apps or software written during that time...you need to basically learn programming from the bottom nearly.
personally I am bit lucky i nthat case because I studied longer and did more projects during that time and a bit in rpivate..still don'T call it real "job experience". and the disadvantage is, that I am older when finishing my thesis than others
@@TomZentra I mean google and the big dogs can do that..they have the money and power to decide. there are enough people who apply there.
BUT I don't get it regarding smaller or medium sized companies...they NEED software developers but keep them out by beeing to picky :D they are not in a position to do so...their fault if they suffer and struggle finding one suited for their wishlist over a process of years then
Oh, this is as old as the profession. I recall positions in 1996 (!) requiring 5 years of experience with the Java programming language (created in 1995).
Yeah, I completely agree with the points made. I definitely had trouble with landing my first developer job, I also had many interviews. Even after years of learning to be a self-taught programmer and freelance work. But the key message is to be persistent and learn from your mistakes!
"How do we fix the interview process..?" Amen, sister.
As a software engineer since the early 1980s, I find todays interview process to be nothing short of farcical.
yep, because people conducting the interviews dont know the first thing about computers and software
@@jarretebarnett8077 i think you meant interviewers and not interviewees ... unless you mean the candidate is watching the recruiter perform in front of an audience
Rejections are bad especially if you are unemployed.
Definitely never feels good!
I would seriously consider starting own business then, something that makes money. Jack Ma couldnt land a job at McDonalds!
u usually need money to make money, though. and if it's an area where you need less capital to start (eg digital marketing), good luck beating out the 1000s of other companies as competition.
After twenty years in the Silicon Valley I ran across some job ads written by real idiots. How about must have 15 years experience on a certain processor that has only been out 3. Or a job at NASA for a payload engineer that required an absurd list of rare systems knowledge that leaves you asking why dont you just call the 3 people on the planet that qualify.
Government jobs are an entirely different beast. I don't know if this is the case in the US, but in some other countries, by the time a position like that is advertised, it's already been filled. The advertisement is a legal requirement, so they simply add all the qualifications of the person who's getting the job to exclude as many people as possible.
@@innomin8251 Actually that is common in high tech companies as well. Company rules often say you have to advertise for two weeks to avoid lawsuits even though they already decided who the job goes too. Another common thing is to advertise for jobs that are not funded/don't exist to collect resumes. This is common on tech companies that have continuous layoffs to get rid of older employee's that they will immediately backfill with a younger cheap grad. Not illegal but not exactly ethical either.
sometimes they will put unattainable requirements on a job ad so that they get government funded grant money and can say that they couldn't find anyone qualified. or it's just for show i.e. basically internal only.
@@eliastalks7411 Good point. In the US say I want to hire a non US worker using an H1B visa. I am supposed to show I could not find a US worker to fill the job. An absurd job requirements list gives me cover for not hiring even a well qualified US worker for the real job. You could say the H1B visa worker cannot meet all the requirements too but its really hard to prosecute at this point. Tech companies have never had to worry about H1B visa abuse because our governments are not looking into any of this. Tech companies provide some jobs and taxes which shelters them from prosecution.
Just apply to everything that u think fits to u even remotely. I applied to exactly 100 companies, which took me about a week and then 30 of them invited me to an interview or some other process. At the end, after 2 months I got my absolute dream job (that I am currently working at) and funnily enough they were the ones who had the most insane requirements for an entry level position but in the interview it turned out that the site where they wrote their requirements on was just outdated and the text was meant for a senior dev position. Well, u gotta need luck, but what is luck? Opportunites taken * Chance of success in %. If Chance is low, the only way u can increase luck is by taking more opportunities :)
Congrats man
thx
facts. just give your best and try everything . so you have a range left to choose from or at least a range existing.
was that your first job?
yes most of the job descriptions are copy pasted
The simplest approach would be for a group of software engineers to set up their own company, hire themselves, give themselves great references, and place advertisements for hires, so that their names get to be on the kill-list of the headhunters :-)
th-cam.com/video/w1CVyUlFkyI/w-d-xo.html
I love that. Seriously. I will do just that
#DaaS Developer as Service ??
"simple" except for the whole need-to-pay-tomorrows-bills things. cashflow is more often than not the main impediment to starting a business. it's far more risky than most are willing to admit (other than those who have seen their business never get off the ground multiple times, have lost everything, have had to go back into salaried work, had to move in with parents, etc).
The interview process has definitely changed over the past 20 years as software development has become more popular and things have become more "systemized"... One thing a teacher told me is view it as a series of games. Level 1 is get around the recruiters who are just looking for their cut and HR, who has no clue. Level 2 is convince the middle managers you've got a personality they can work with. Level 3 is the "widget test" which depending on the situation is anything from an informal whiteboarding session to one of those online hacker rank tests.
Companies want Senior level experience but only willing to pay entry level pay
If you have senior level experience, you will find that you can't find a job quicker by dropping down your pay expectations. Teams want new members exactly like themselves and it is good if it takes a long time to fill a position, unless someone can get a referral bonus.
Being young, you forgot to mention the biggest problem - age discrimination! Not just for software development, but IT in general. I have 21 years of IT experience, in roles including computer operations, PC support, systems administration, and software development. After my Windows 2000 systems administrator job was outsourced to Mexico in 2003, I was unable to find another IT job, despite sending thousands of resumes, and I now work in a low-paying, blue-collar job in order to pay the bills. After being outsourced in 2003, I had only 3 or 4 interviews but no job offers, all of those occurring in 2003. From 2004 - 2021, I've had ZERO interviews, even for low-level PC support type positions, despite all my years of experience. IT is a young person's game, and once you reach a certain age, you're no longer wanted, no matter your skills or qualifications.
So since 2003 you Had a issue even landing a job interview? I mean to be fair, you weren’t always older. Why weren’t you hired 2004?
@@creb2429 Because in addition to age discrimination, in the IT field, once you are unemployed, you are a pariah, and companies don't want to give you the time of day, let alone an interview. And the longer you are unemployed, the worse it gets. Companies assume that because you are unemployed, there must be something wrong with you, and they won't give you the time of day. As I said in my original comment, after being outsourced in 2003, I had 3-4 interviews but no job offers, because I was already unemployed at that point - hence, I was a pariah. And the longer I was unemployed, the fewer responses I got from my resumes, until I was getting none at all. I've since had to work several blue-collar, low-wage jobs and move out-of-state for one of them, where I have somewhat miraculously recently landed an entry-level, low-paying PC support job in a smaller town. But at least it's an IT position, and hopefully I can begin to work my way back up the IT ladder from the bottom, after making $70K as a systems administrator back in 2003.
yeah I believe this kind of negative-feedback-loop dynamic can happen to anyone. it's brutal. the opposite is true too: some people coast up and up the corporate ladder because their career experience looks great on paper, despite waning skills and knowledge of the modern tech domain. it's crazy.
probably cause you didn't update your skills. you need to know scripting and a newer programming language at least a little bit nowadays
@@jamesrick7351 not necessarily. all things equal some employers prefer cheap young impressionable minds. software engineering is often treated as a glorified IT cost centre within businesses. second class citizens beneath product managers and MBAs
For someone who just shifted from being an engineering professor to a data analyst or scientist, I am still looking for a job opportunity to break into the industry and rack up experience. However, most job openings require experience. Ironic!
Cheers, Tiff! 🥰🤓😍
My answer to this question has always been:
Yes, there is a high demand for GOOD software developers. There's an influx of subpar developers.
Totally agree. There's a huge demand for good developers, and there are a lot of bad developers out there. That's why it's hard to land that first job. No one wants to take a chance on someone when the odds are that they won't work out. They'd rather have a proven good developer. It's not fair, but it's the way it works.
The problem is that most recruiters have no idea what is a "good software developer".
They seem to just check whether you fit in all their boxes.
Yup soo true!
I'm not even sure that's necessarily true. I think companies want someone that APPEARS to be a good software engineer. What I mean is it seems like they all want someone that has been vetted by another company's engineering team first. That way they get all the perks w/o any of the downsides because someone else trained the engineer already. On the one hand it makes sense, but on the other they should stop complaining about not enough engineers ha.
I also am suspicious of companies saying this. In the US I think a lot of these companies say that so they can hire some overseas talent for less. I have nothing against overseas engineers. I just know that these corporations are shady and they are smart of enough to know they can't go outside the borders if everyone knows the truth, that there are plenty of software engineers in the US.
As she said though, once you have that first real job you get hit up all the time. I'm not even on LinkedIn and I still get so many recruiters hitting me up is almost impossible to answer them all.
@@RogerThat902 Roger That
To get the interview, most companies use automated systems to "buzz word search" to find their candidates. Screening out a lot of good candidates. Next, ageism is a VERY serious problem, so people with 15+ years' experience get screened out.
Getting that first job is difficult now, because "entry level" job descriptions commonly require 3-5 years' experience.
Don't expect a recruiter or a hiring manager to tell you why they rejected you -- or even that you've been rejected, preferring instead to just "ghost" you.
It's insane how difficult it is to get your foot in the door for a develop job when you don't have experience. And precious few companies are willing to invest in newbies like me so they can get competent developers in the near future for fear of their investments scooting off to bigger paycheques offered by companies that don't invest in their talent. It's maddening and frustrating.
It’s probably because you spell paychecks wrong tbh
@@adammartin1507 I’m sorry, but I beg to differ 🇨🇦😁
@@adammartin1507 That's how its spelt in British English
The odds of getting a software engineering job are against you because engineers in India are paid 10% of what you expect.
and they code 10x times worse lmao
@@JEsterCW thats not truth.
Every company needs to train the new hires. My wife works for a tech company and the "Must Have a Bachelor's" mentality doesn't always produce great employees.
Companies need to train, but almost none are willing to. They want you to be turn-key on day one, like an appliance.
@@sonicbroom8522 very true. They seem to forget about the abundance of products and services being offered.
also most university stuff is theory.. I experience it by myself. you finish your bachelor and you are still not an experienced developer ..not even close . buut, you have the paper which gives you access to some more jobs or get the measier..because you have the paper....mostly yes, you are more qualified than someone without proper education in this field..but does not apply for all cases and still you are unexperienced...
The issue is that we spend a year training a new software engineer. It takes time to do, the trainer is not as productive while is training another. You basically carrying 1.5 people for a year. Then when training is done the new recruit who you’ve been paying good wages too while they learn on the job wants more money or they leave.
@@harrypottar-1 Cry me a fucking river. You want to expand your business? You want to ease the burden on your existing devs? Then you have to invest in your employees with training. Also not every trainee is going to leave after they get trained that is a strawman and anecdotal.
It'd also be nice if regular companies stopped pretending they're FAANG and realize they don't need unicorns to do general run of the mill code.
Startup: hello we want FAANG employees but will not offer FAANG benefits n pay, thank u come agen
@@alexgear959 looooool
@@alexgear959 LMAO
I think the disconnect between the two statements is that there is a lot of demand, for senior level jobs. Junior/Entry level not as much. You're really gonna have to be patient and grind it out to land that first role and the reality is that the junior/entry level roles are always the most competitive.
This is great information to know. Some of the things I already knew but it is good to get that reassurance that it takes persistence and hard work to really get to where you are wanting to be with your career. 👍🏽
You got it!💕
It is also difficult to land a job when you are an experienced engineer. Why? Because companies won’t pay for 15-20 years of experience if they only need someone with 5 years. You end up going back to a previous company who already knows you, which is not always the best option.
Very true!!
@Tigg in Tech There is a simple reason: Payment. You in the US make about 6 times the money I make for identical skillset, identical workhours, identical education. And programming is the easiest job to do remotely. That means a company would prefer to hire me from Eastern Europe, over someone like you, simply because he can pay me 6 times less. For reference, every time I had to change job, it took me about 4-6 weeks to do it. Which is very short. Also due to how education is set up in my country (Romania), there is 0 pressure to get an early job (everything is free from kindergarden to PHD), no such thing as loans. As such I have not worked a second before having the diploma in my hand.
it's great you are a capable individual with great skills, but why wouldn't you try to negotiate a higher salary or look for a better paid opportunity while you keep doing your current role
it's really a waste of your time and absolutely stupid to not reach out for more !!!
@@AtticusDenzil Because in my corner of the world those are the levels. You can be the best (I am clearly not) programmer on the planet, you won't get that much higher pay. Also logically you prefer working in your own country (pension, taxes paid, legal ease of use, etc)
As somebody who was involved in many hiring decisions in my time in industry (1980-2005) I thought you did a good job of setting out the current issues. Many of the screening methods now used are simply a reflection of the problem of dealing with the flood of applications which are now a consequence of the ease of making digital applications. In the days when I had to read mountain of written applications and paper resumes it was much easier to make sound decisions. I was able to make some great hires, may have missed a few good ones but can safely say I only hired one dud. It would be impossible to return to what I did but I hope that better hiring processes can be found.
Thanks for sharing!
I'm a 19 year old junior software developer who just finished college in 2020 probably the worst time to find employment and I was really lucky at the start of this year to find a small start up that was looking to take on apprentice developers and I was offered the first position and I couldn't believe it. I really like the company and think we are going big places. My advice is to look for smaller companies who are willing to train you up and put you through qualifications at the same time because what I have found is that big companies only care about CVs but small company's care so much more about the individual and I'm forever thankful for getting this chance.
You're 19 and graduated college last year?
@@ashley1872 he's a genius
@@ashley1872 that’s just an average person in my country
graduated college at 19 😱
@@ashley1872 it's probably 2 years community college lol. No way he finished 4 year university and found only apprenctinship, if he was that smart he would know much more and could have gotten jobs from Google or Amazon.
I saw a job post the other day. It required 4+ years of experience in FastAPI.
I couldn't apply as I only have 1.5+ years of experience since I created that thing.
Maybe it's time to re-evaluate that "years of experience = skill level".
-Sebastian Ramirez (creator of FastAPI)
You should still apply for the position. HR usually posts what an "ideal" or "perfect" candidate will have...but there is rarely a perfect candidate. As long as you have the general skill set, don't get hung up on the years part.
@@MrInquisitive soo.. HR is useless.
@@MrInquisitive what I was posting is a real life example not of an "ideal" or "perfect" candidate, but an example of a candidate that (without the aid of a time travel device) could not exist. I am not Sebastian Ramirez, but he created a technology that he doesn't meet the "ideal" requirements for. That is patently absurd, and points to a deeply broken system. The point is that HR is asking for (and likely filtering on) criteria that may stop *anyone* who is not lying into their organization. This sends a clear signal to would-be applicants that lying is not only acceptable, but is the only way to "appear" as an ideal candidate.
I almost quit my school. I’m so glad I kept with it. While it’s still challenging for me, I am actually getting the concepts now and I am so proud of myself. To anyone who wants to quit: don’t! You can do it. Keep going and keep advocating for your education and future!!!!!💛 thank you Tiff for being an inspiration to us all!
you can quit school. its worthless for most software engineering jobs
@@leod1740 Let's be honest. Not everyone can or should be a software developer.
but i think you were talking about coding school, not like university. That is different, keep doing that if youre not a self learner
@@eechaze12 I appreciate your comment!☺️ have a wonderful day!!!
@@leod1740 thank you Leo!!! I think discussing these things is great. Have an awesome day!!!
In my country, companies hire junior developers only if they have a college degree, 5+ years of experience and less than 30 years of age.
What is your country?
Because every graduate with zero experience think they should be accepted just because. You need to understand, that for every graduate student with no experience, there's a graduate student with SOME experience, or with EXTENSIVE experience. Here in Eastern Europe, most students start working on real projects while studying. Like, I have a student in my team who's only 20 y.o, and he hasn't yet finished his Bachelor's, but he's smart, driven, learns constantly besides his university studies, and he has worked for dozens of projects already. I'm happy to have him employed. And what would happens in a few years? He'll be a senior engineer who'll be applying to jobs globally, taking perhaps YOUR place in your local company/country/whatever. So yes, the demand is growing, but so is the competition. Good luck guys!
Yes!! thanks for sharing that insight. It is soo true! Love that sentence of "the demand is growing, but so is the competition"
@@TiffInTech a minute of ugly truth here 😁
It's not that easy. I know many people who attempted the same thing but didn't have the social or the privileges to get into projects in general. In fact Colleges should be training the students into experience every year like the old days. But instead we are paying them 70k without putting us into the field
That isn't the graduate fault. It's the system
@@kimichibreathandstinkyswea1940 you dont get on he job training on college?
If they’re not getting hired, then where would they get the experience from? Digging up someone’s arse to find it?
I love your tips thank u! I just started self learning and I don't see myself doing something else as programming, I just love it.
I've been going through literally hundreds of job offers in my wider area. Often times, it reads as if their IT-department listed up every single programming language, framework, technology, specific application area etc. that their department is using in any capacity, and you better have experience with every last one of them. Each job offer has an entirely different list. It's too specific. Almost nobody will have that exact combination of skills. You could most definitely learn them on the job in a short timeframe, which is an essential skill in a field that's constantly evolving. But instead, recruiters hope to find a rare unicorn that already knows everything.
Headlines are totally misleading. There is a high demand for EXPERT, STATE OF THE ART DEVELOPERS WITH 10+ YEARS EXPERIENCE IN SPECIFIC AREAS. That's the real headline
You are not mentioning the most important think: 100,000+ H1B Visa Employee from India alone per Year! Imaging 100,000 from China, Russia, etc?!
What would 30,000 new jobs per year would do to the market compare to 300,000 new non-citizen Global Employee manly from Asia?!
I had no idea it was hard to get a software engineer job. Thanks for warning us
Its not, not really, Its hard to get your FIRST job, but just apply to everything even tangencially related to what you want (easier as an Intern), get any ANY job and then you will be scouted so much that it will hurt you, every year you become so much more valuable after your first job
Remember, the average developer has
I tired to find a job without results and finally I am building my own company. Like Bender did.
Companies complain: "But it costs money to train newbies!" So does paying a highly skilled engineer. So does training any new employee. Its called return on investment. The requirements for Entry-level positions are unrealistic. Skilled engineer are in-demand, so often they get the pick. Unfortunately, Human Resources often don't understand IT/CS enough (Sorry HR. Not meant as an insult. I realize IT/CS is confusing, but it does affect hiring the proper engineer/developer).
Thanks for sharing! Yes it is a tough issue Forsure
Some companies aren't hiring based on specific needs. I interview several people every week and we don't even require specific language experience. We believe that a good developer can learn what we need them to learn. Because of this, we gauge candidates on broader criteria, like "If I need to give this person a task, can I expect them to be able to handle it?" and "Will this person fit into our company culture". We know that things change, and we need people who can be flexible.
Same! There are studies from a long time ago showing 10x improvements for individuals and 2.5x improvements for teams that are motivated. I always look for motivation and ability to adapt when interviewing. Flexibility and desire is more important than whether they write comments in a certain way. Also I try to make the work for my juniors a little bit fun to increase their motivation and build trust. I would bet on my people over the elitists who think that everyone else but them is just bad any day.
This was so helpful. Even though I am not searching for a job, but an internship while in college. It gives you an idea of what to expect, why you might have no been accepted, and most importantly that you should keep applying until you get accepted.
Good luck in your search but don't get so desperate in your search that you let someone talk you into working for FREE. There are sharks out there and their goal is to find as many people as possible who are dumb enough and desperate enough to work for nothing, it should illegal but its not. If you haven't already you might want to look at some of the federal agencies (assuming you're in the US) who are always looking for STEM college student. These jobs pay well, great learning opportunities and almost always lead to permanent jobs if you do well.
Whatever you do, at least do 1 internship before u graduate.. Relevant work experience is what's working against me now because I couldn't quit my regular job to do that like
nobody tells you to make your own company
I have coded nearly every single day for 2 years with the goal of getting a job. I don't think I'm fit to be a software developer. That's not because I'm not good enough, but because my motivations weren't right. For the most part, I was just chasing money. I didn't care about most of the things I was coding, I was doing it for the sole purpose that some recruiter would find my portfolio impressive. That worked for the first year to year and a half while the topics were basic and lower level, but as things are starting to get more complex I just can't fake it. For the most part, I do not care about software architecture, database engineering, making an efficient algorithm.. Learning it is hell for me and I frequently find myself watching videos or reading articles and not remembering a single thing at the end because I wasn't paying attention even though I was looking at the screen. I was good at faking it. My cousin manages software projects for AWS and after looking at my portfolio and resume was confident I could get a job. That's the risk with hiring a developer who is just starting out, they can fake it easily at first but most people who fake it end up hitting a wall.
What do you plan to do now?
@@dimple3882 I don't know. I have a good enough job now and I'm happy where I'm at. I'll probably focus on stuff other than career and money.
Yep, if you have trouble with those topics, or even hate them, then software development would be a bad fit for you. While it's a shame you spent over a year to figure that out, it shows you have the tenacity to learn a new skill. Hopefully you'll find something else that's more aligned with your interests. Even if that doesn't become a career, you'll have an enjoyable hobby.
True, as a developer for 10+ years I've seen people that are simply in the wrong line of work. First you're doing injustice to yourself, working a job you hate, second, you will stay at the bottom of the barrel on the payscale and risk being fired, not get pay raises etc, because your real skill is lacking and when you need to change jobs you will get into all sorts of trouble - not passing interviews, possibly getting fired in first couple of months etc.
I am a SE Undergraduate student from Sri Lanka 🇱🇰 getting your advices
Junior Entry Level Job: Highschool diploma, 30 years coding experience, SQL, Fullstack devops, and willing work to work on a fast paced environment and meet resolve goals. Also, your value as a human being is pointless unless you can code. Good luck working until you are 75 at Wallmart.
Another problems is recruiters posting ads for jobs which require advanced degrees and many years of experience.
One such job originally posted in 2016 required 10 years of experience with Go programming language. Go programming language was first invented in 2009.
HAHAHHA omg is this real?
Cause if they keep people struggling for jobs, it will push the wages down. The more people applying for 1 job, the less people are willing to take to get a job at all. Markets only work when there is a free exchange, not when 1 party can hold the ability to live over the others head.
316,000 jobs over 10 years doesn't seem like a lot, mostly considering there might be A LOT more developers than that and there will be even more by then. The offer is way bigger than the demand in my opinion. Of course, if we only apply this to senior developers, then I guess it could be true.
Especially considering that much of the work can be done remotely, and so you have to consider the population of developers that speak English well enough to understand the tasks. This means every Indian developer, as well as most of those from eastern Europe.
My recommendation to newer developers who have been in the industry less than 5 years is to learn the infrastructure side. If you want something that is going to make you stand out, that's going to be it. It takes a few years to learn the web side but if you want to advance you're going to need to know the entire application lifecycle.
great advice!
Solid advice, especially If you know how to design and put together an entire distributed system on the cloud like AWS or GCP, that's something else!
and then it will change over the years
And how am I supposed to get those skills without an environment to learn and apply them? You can't just set that sort of thing up at home
Tiff! I remember the times when you had like 30k subscribers! It's really nice to see you grow! You helped me to finally decide to start applying, and thanks to you I work in frontend
I've been applying to software positions for the past year as I get closer and closer to graduation (I graduate in December). I'm an older student (31) trying to make a career switch from retail management. I've not received a single offer whatsoever. Most companies don't even bother to tell me I haven't been selected; they just pretend that I don't exist.
I'm really considering jumping on the JET program for teaching English in Japan as an onboarding process into the country of Japan so that I can get a foot in with Japanese tech companies. It's a lot harder to apply for tech jobs in Japan from the USA -- especially right now when the COVID situation has blocked US citizens from entering the country. No one wants to even look at foreign hires. It would be a low wage, but it could be a payoff in the end.
Thank you ! I agree with what you have said! This is an emotional roller coaster rides!
It’s the same with any competitive industry. It took me 9 years to get my foot in the door…not Dev related. I kept trying and didn’t give up. In the meantime I took closely related jobs and kept trying…till I got in. Once your in…your in! Only need 1 yesssssss!
9 years ?? wow that sucks ... did you consider any apprenticeships or college internship, anything along those lines?
damn man 9 years, what has the world come to ...
@@AtticusDenzil 😆 It’s actually much easier now to get in then in like 2005! Now all the major corps have training classes and a few truly entry level positions each year. It wasn’t like that…back then it was like you had to be in some other position and then find someone to train internally. It was classic…entry level position requires 2years experience. But I did get related jobs that gave me great experience along the way. Now I’m like 7 years in and looking for a career change as I know that can do anything I set my mind too! 😃
Coding is way more difficult than it was 20-40 years ago. The difference e.g. between C++ in its original form and C++20 is vast. I got to learn it incrementally but someone new has to learn it in a much more compressed time frame.
But coding in Java, C#, Python etc is orders of magnitude easier than even the C++ of 20 years ago. Most grads I meet would be unable to write a simple C program in Notepad (or vi) and get it to successfully compile, let alone run properly.
@@lordlucan529 True, but also consider all the other things devs are expected to know: huge APIs/libraries/frameworks, HTML/CSS, REST APIs, microservices, threading, GPUs, etc. The ecosystem and surface area is so much vaster. Sure, if you want a Joe job paying peanuts you might get by with a simple language doing simple things, but for the big salaries everyone is lusting for, those require a lot extra.
@@perfectionbox Isn't that how everyone starts - a much simpler job paying accordingly? It's taken me 40 years to gain the knowledge and experience of all of those areas you mention (and a lot you haven't). I do however see a problem in the industry, in that recognition of levels of ability, responsibility, supervision and mentorship have been completely absent where I have worked - managers tend to have a binary view of whether you have the appropriate skill set or not. I guess the industry hasn't grown up yet (and maybe never will).
Same observation here in France. We have a lot of new developers every year but it is more and more difficult to find a first job.
Very true!
A cause de ces écoles de reconversion en numérique. Et ces reconvertis demandent moins de salaires. Alors les diplômes en informatique ingénieurs ou masters restent en chômage ou ils font autres choses.
Thank you for this, it really helps me in many ways, not the least of which is just being terrified to just apply for a job... The idea of applying to 10 companies a day suddenly makes it much less personal and more assembly line. Like most things, I think it comes down to me overthinking things to the point of inaction, rather than just doing it and figuring it out.
thank you! Yes, exactly!! You got this!
After a career break (because i had to look after my kids) i decided to go back to the job market. i am a software engineer & unable to secure a job.. i have been trying for almost a year now. When i apply linkedIn shows the number of applicants for that role & the numbers are insane..the competition is SUPER SUPER high & i think nobody wants to hire a woman who hav small kids. Job market discriminates a lot.. i am losing hope & don't know what to do. I am thinking of getting into master's & will then do my phd.. I hav heard university pays students who do their phd..maybe this is the route for me. I am done with finding a software job..The competition is insane..there are immigrants from other countries + local fresh graduates + adult citizens & they all are fighting for ONE role.. its hard, its really hard. Finding a job in this field is like the Netflix series squid game..
The following are huge factors, that affect your job opportunities:
1- Your race (Racism)
2- Your age (Ageism)
3- Your gender (Misogyny )
I know this is an old comment but you have very real value and opportunity in recruiting. I know it doesn’t seem like a glamorous job but companies are dying for ex-engineers that know what they’re talking about and it pays well!
Tiff you are awesome. This is a great topic. You didn't mention that AGE is actually a filter commonly used by many companies, no matter how experienced you are
Thanks for sharing! Yes definitely
Because college don't give technical and practical knowledge to students 4 years enough to learn and become experts
It’s called waiting for the cheapest H1-b.
I'm no mathematician but 31k of the total workforce I'm guessing over 100 million is .00031 doesn't seem very substantial.
The field is overcrowded with people who think they deserve a job after learning how to write a for loop. Solid software engineers who can think and solve problems well are still very rare. Main thing is to know DSA (data structures and algorithms). If you can solve Leetcode Easy and Medium level problems, you can find an internship/job quite easily. Most companies don't care about what languages or frameworks you know. They care about how well you can solve difficult problems. A good general problem solver is much more in-demand than someone whos good at a specific technology.
@The Adjudicator Memorizing Leetcode gets you nowhere. There are thousands of possible questions you could be asked. Whats important is to understand *patterns*. Understand what type of pattern a question is and what techniques you can use to solve the question. For example, if the problem involves trees or graphs, you'll most likely need to use DFS or BFS. If the problem requires you to look up stuff often, use a Set or Map.
Understanding what data structures and algorithms can be used to solve each problem is a skill that cannot be memorized, and absolutely shows programming competency.
If you cannot solve even Leetcode easy-level questions, then it doesn't matter how good you are at making web apps or mobile apps, you simply cannot perform well at software engineering.
lol they absolutely care about what frameworks and languages you know coding logic isnt a thing anymore
It costs a lot of money to train someone. A false positive is far more expensive than a false negative.
Addiction to cheap labor force ends badly in a just in time economy. It takes only a tiny ripple to be put in a serious trouble when you are a part of that. People who you train are more likely to stick with you when there is a trouble on the horizon. Mercenaries will just leave without even saying a word ...
I think technical interviews where there is a high level system design portion and there is a brief pairing session are probably the best way to go. It’s the most real world like. You will undoubtedly be pairing with your co workers at some point. And being able to mock up how you’d build a specific feature or app is definitely something you’d do on the job.
100 percent agreed about the specific skillset thing. saw this over and over in like 20 different interviews. you either know a b c de f .... or ur unhireable lol. some would say you dodged a bullet by not getting hired but then you realize it's widespread as hell.
3:19 that stock video was fucking brutal! 🤣 Poor Lisa
I hate those stock videos. They are sooooooo lame.
What I notice for jobs of analysts, is that most people know the vocabulary and methods, but they completely miss the actual purpose, the core idea of the discipline. I am not sure they know what are the real qualities they have to look for. And secondly, people are used to think in a certain way, a way that fits our world and our social life. Good Analysts think in terms of systems. So, the HR and the (proficient) analyst have a very different way of thinking. One will question, have expectations and judge the other from his way of thinking. This won't work out well.
Very true!!
I have over 10 years of experience and made the mistake of quiting my job for pursuing a master's degree. Big mistake! Now I can't get a job because I can't reverse a binary tree in less than 10min. The whole HR process is broken in NA.
I gave up on the software engineering thing and work in IT. It was much easier to get a job although the pay is not as high. But I can get higher pay with a different role in the future.
I've had an entirely different experience in my software engineering career. I graduated from college and in 2010 and found a job almost immediately. I credit this to my schools mandatory co-op program where 2 semesters you spend working as a paid intern at different companies that you apply for. You still interview like a normal job but the interviewers understand they are interviewing somebody with no industry experience. These co-ops are your chance to make a lasting impression on the teams you are working within. If they like you, you just may end up with a job offer waiting for you when you graduate.
Question Tiff... How to create the cv without experience in the area? should we put the past experiences, or just the skills in dev and the portfolio? thx
both
you can have a "Projects" sections instead of an "Experience" section. This shows your skills, and tells the employers that you have what it takes to DO the job.
Depends on the assignment. I always ask what the company needs. Most of your CV will not be very interesting anyway though, it is the letter that sell you and how well you have worked with your Linkedin profile. As a consultant I often go to interviews for new assignments and I have 20+ CV's in two languages :)
If we are talking about US. Local software engineers compete not only with locals over the same jobs but with many foreigners that are not in the country.
My experience is that someone who has a history of successful implementation has a better likelihood of successfully implementing future systems. My greatest successes have been outside the specific areas I was hired for. Also, getting hired as a contractor is often a good way to get a foot in the door.
And then there is age discrimination. But that's another topic.
at what age does the discrimination start?
Right after you have been born)
@@nczioox1116 I would say it goes both ways. If you are too young you don't know anything and if you are too old you don't know the latest tech fads
At technical interviews I always had the language specified, not choosable
When they get hyper specific they are not interested in a long term relationship. Usually their goals is to fill a real or perceived gap. They fill that gap until such time that they no longer need that skill. Then, maybe you can transition to something else in the organization. Companies, at their own peril, are quite comfortable with a revolving door. I feel companies do not develop talent, they simply try to purchase whatever they need at the bazaar.
I've been a software engineer for a little over 10 years and have been both on the interviewing side and on the hiring side and it really comes down to two things:
1) If it's your first engineering job, then the process really does suck for you. A lot of HR/Management people won't roll the dice with you even though most engineers I've worked with like hiring juniors
2) You can't code your way out of a paper bag. It is absolutely amazing how giving "senior" engineers simple coding problems and they'll get completely stuck. I'm not talking about some byzantine algorithm that you have to create, but simple string manipulation or navigating/ordering objects. Nerves play a part, which is why we take problems that should take 10-15 minutes to do and give candidates 30 minutes to do them (and we aren't even needing the correct answer, just show me you know how to get there and get a partial solution). It's mind blowing how bad some of you out there are at this
Sounds like a huge yikes. I just started a CS degree (and my first coding class) two months ago and I cant imagine not being able to do the things you mentioned. I love solving problems and I thrive on challenges. I just don't get it. Although I had a pair programming partner today said they're considering changing their major because they can't keep up with the assignments we get.
@@joshurlay Software development isn't for everyone, yet everyone is rushing to do that. There are so many voids to be filled on the job market. But these voids get 0 attention and the general population isn't aware that they exist. For example, there's a massive shortage of land surveyors (and related fields in geography/drafting) in France. These jobs pay decently well, with good benefits. Nobody seems to know that these fields exist. Instead, everyone is rushing towards commerce/computer science degrees with painfully competitive job markets 🤦🤦🤦.
I've done over 200 interviews at my company, what's craziest is how many of those (2) candidates, when you check their resume, are currently working at a FANG company.
It's even more amazing how arrogant and self congratulating you are! Whiteboarding is useless and do nothing other than create a hostile environment where candidates are degraded. Why bother with resumes and a degree, if all that matters is how well you perform on a problem? Any senior programmer knows there's no simple answer. I once watched a brilliant programmer struggle through a problem I thought was fairly straightforward: square every integer on a sorted list and return the result sorted. When I showed him the solution, he said: "Returning the results in a newly allocated array is cheating!" Had it been a whiteboard interview, the interviewer would have dismissed him as an idiot, not realizing he understood the typical solution is inefficient.
@@bobweiram6321 "Why bother with resumes and a degree, if all that matters is how well you perform on a problem?"
Maybe where you work you don't have to produce quality work, but where I am, it's an absolute requirement. If you can't code then you have no business referring to yourself as a senior engineer
"I once watched a brilliant programmer struggle through a problem I thought was fairly straightforward"
That is an extremely straightforward problem indeed. If this "senior" engineer was really senior, then he would have had the skills to know he needs to ask follow up questions about potential solutions. Being a senior isn't just about coding ability, but about being able to look at problems from a larger scale. Simply not coming up with any solution because he thinks it's "cheating" (whatever that means) is the mark of someone who is not actually senior.
I am getting laid off from my first job after getting a five star review from my manager (who is also getting laid off) and working there for a little over a year. I am so burnt out from looking for a job and trying to solve these silly problems. Even the jobs that don't have me to do technical interviews are so annoying because with my luck I always end up as the runner up and not getting picked because I don't have enough experience. Like what do you mean I do not have enough experience for this entry level position, I just spent a whole year writing over 50k lines of code to try to keep this eCommerce platform that does a million dollars day up and running. IDK it's just so exhausting and I just want to not have to worry about money and program for my passion projects all day long but bills.......
A job is in demand when the applicant pool recedes below the availability. You are wrong in many areas.
I did the math on this. There is a .09% job penetration for that field. Thats 1 software engineering jobs for every 1,111 people. Thats INSANLEY low. Imagine a town with 10,000 , but only 9 developers supporting the town. What we are actually seeing here is grossly overworked developers at the cost of what could be more jobs. Then you wont see videos like this complaining "getting a dev job is so hard"
This is way too objective and not subjective to the reality. THis field is NOT IN DEMAND. Recruiters are artificially inflating the demand by not hiring qualified people.
This is a problem until companies start giving their screening / interview process to third party companies rather than their own employees, its obvious if the interviewer sees you have more knowledge than him he's not gonna let you in, you think they worry about their company's benefits ?
Companies should really move into looking for potential, instead of looking for experienced and exact match. If you have your basics and mindset, you can grow into any position and meet any demands, if given time and support. (most of the not-so-good companies won't offer much support, so maybe that's the reason)
Note: Went through comments so that I don't violate DRY; not all. Sorry if repeat. No bad review comments please.
Worked as Software Engineer for 22+ years. Very recently retired. Decided to become Climate Change evangelist (BTW you had your monitors on for all 8 minutes @tiff).
You have no idea how lucky you guys are. But that's for another day. Interviews in general for a _good_
- Number: Can go up to 8 (vmware)
- Probably will include aptitude
iddle (bloomberg)
- can include actually writing small utility at their location (mcafee)
Why they suck:
- interviewers have _responsibility_ of people they give go ahead. And they have been burned, at least few times. So they don't take chances. By burned I mean, they are the ones who will usually end up picking up after you.
- there is no _definite_ test of person's coding ability. You have to test everything. That means asking how you make a jar through eclipse.
- if you are entry level, most probably they are going to have to hand hold you lot.
- some are just jerks (moi)
What you can do?
I am surprised no one mentioned this (at least first 20 comments): *contribute to open source*. Have a repository on github\lab. Make it part of your resume. As long as you are honest and it's really your contribution (it is _very_ easy to find if it's not), people will take notice.
20 years xp here, I agree with everything you said. I do know how lucky we are, we shouldn't take our profession for granted.
Took me about 8 years after graduating to land my first dev job. I did stop after the first 6 months looking for a job. I spent time on many jobs last of which was being a system admin for 2 years. Got tired of being woken in the middle of the night, retrained myself over 3 months on the many things I forgot over time and landed my first dev job.
If companies are throwing extreme requirements at junior employees, that means the field isn't in demand. A field that's in demand will lower their standards out of necessity. A field that's over-saturated will show extremely high demands. The software development field is over-saturated. Until companies accept that they may have to do some on the job training, that's the conclusion I'm making.
Reality is most organisations want their developers to _hit the ground running_ ASAP, and the more experience a candidate is, the higher probability of that happening sooner. I state probability because in practical real world because it _still_ takes plenty of time to learn a team's culture and organisational structure, people and roles, technical patterns and practices, system architecture, existing code base, database schemas, communication protocols, etc.
There is of course the counter scenario where experienced/senior developers are undesirable simply because they're too expensive, and would rather take the chance with junior developers hoping they can pick up quickly and "word hard" to get better (i.e. throw them into deep end of the ocean).
The problem is HR and HR alone.
Not only. First of all, that huge demand is only for experienced people, while most of the looking for job are inexperienced folk in search for their first IT job.
I am a currently a .NET developer, which is something I never thought I would use, since I mostly specialize in C++, Rust, and Python. My biggest mistake was not getting internships during college, however I needed funds. I absolutely hate the application process since I know it's most likely HR making the job posts. I lost count at how many workday accounts I've made just to apply to one job. Also, I've seen Entry Level posts ask for 10+ years experience. WHAT?! After being laid off early-mid 2020 due to COVID, it took months to find a job anywhere in the US. Luckily I have a job now. Possibly I should invest in the cover letters, even though I find them quite useless. It doesn't help a lot of companies are adopting the Google interview/hiring process which I think does not work at a smaller scale.
I do not care for big salaries, all I care is to work on a job that I like. The problem is that the software industry is highly comercialized which means they want money and fast. I remember in highschool when I was coding with Turtle how excited I was and all I wanted was to code robotics and space stuff, now it's all about fat Janice getting her freshest and cheapest avocado from an e-comerce app or site. It's sad.
If you are not able to get someone an avocado than you sure as F can’t get them to Mars.
@@lockwood1976 Nah, fat Jan can get it on her own time, you on the other hand are free to code for these people and still think good about yourself.
@@JohnyVman I really don’t see how you feel good about yourself at all. I work on things that get to Mars. And I hire software developers. But not you.
@@lockwood1976 I feel good about myself just fine, I don't see why it is your concern. You build Mars stuff? More like copium because you suffer from buyers remorse since your boss wants more avocado's on lazy people, at best you will build a Mars avocado delivery drone. Why do you assume that I would work for you, it seems to me that no one wants to hire you maybe that's where this is coming from.
Coding for robotics and space stuff is still needed. The avocado online stores haven't replaced NASA at all. It's just something additional, that you can ignore. There are more jobs in the robotics and space industries than ever before. Don't limit yourself with problems that don't exist. Janice and her avocados aren't preventing you from getting the job of your dream.
Thank you so much for your encouraging words, also in your other videos 🤗
You are so welcome!❤️
Companies now are greedy. They want you to be an expert in multiple programming languages and cloud computing as well. The reason for that is, there are more software engineers/ Developers than actual Software Engineering jobs. Therefore, companies will keep playing this game for a long time. sometimes they will keep reposting the same position over and over. That is why I always believe, network/connection is around 60% of the qualifications.
The Truth!!!!!!!!!!
BSEE, Cal Poly SLO and MSEE from SCU - plus 24 years of experience in Silicon Valley. I've only done RF/Microwave Hardware stuff (only design - period - no testing unless it's my design) - however most hardware positions are a bit too grunt-technician for my liking or too focused with dragging an unwilling engineer into manufacturing - and it's always been an ongoing issue. Many hardware engineers are pretty familiar with this 'problem'. pigeoned holed,embedded
Hardware design is a sinking ship, really wish I hadn't studied electrical engineering in retrospect.
@@scotchrobbins - code
@@scotchrobbins - I went to school with this guy who also got his BSEE from Cal Poly. He just barely passed and got his BSEE (like with a 2.001 gpa). So this dude gets his first hardware engineering job and just doesn't like it - because he's just testing stuff. Surprise. Surprise! So, he quits his job and got a second bachelor degree in Computer Science from University of the Pacific I think. Post graduation, he's only had one software job at HP the whole time. Me? I've been job hopping non-stop mostly because my first two jobs the pay was too low (to buy a house in Silicon Valley) and nearly every job I just freaking hated technician work. I got into management once (promoted from engineer) - but that job was just too political for my liking. I never really escaped hardware - but, I am a full time consultant now - and that is nicer. I don't think I could EVER go back to the corporate world and deal with that nonsense again.
There's high demand for REAL software engineers, not kiddos doing js and not knowing nothing about microprocessor architecture and lower layers of the machine
Have done 22 years of web dev, never had to know anything about procs etc. If you are a taxi driver you do not need to know how the engine in a tank works ;)
@@swojnowski453 As mentioned in the title, the demand for Software Engineering is under question, not development. Software Engineering and software development are two different things.
Because it's a cushy desk job, high pay, and you have to compete with people in China and India because it can be done remotely
I like how everybody says and everywhere is written: SW engineers and programmers (in whatever branch, doesn't matter if you are Java developer or PLC programmer) are in high demand. But the main problem is that there is high demand for programmers with: Fast learning, 20 years of experiences, computer science university, flexibility, working 24/7 if needed, etc. And yes, there is SUPER high demand. Problem is: this is like 5% of programmers and another 95% are slower programmers, not much smart programmers, unexperienced people, fresh absolvents or even still students or internists. And for those people there is pretty LOW demand. It is because everybody wants to be a great cool programmer, but not everybody has a genes for it. But they are too blind that they can't see that someone who is working manually can get much better salary because of culture of "Everybody must go to university, manual work is shitty and ugly, we want to be nice and pure, we don't want to be physically bullied, we don't want to be replaced by robots, etc."
The last one is bullshit, btw. AI and robotics are quickly growing up, but definitely not that quickly that it can replace manual workers like electricians, builders, etc in the upcoming 50 yrs. Just stereotypic manual work like assembly lines. There is higher chance to programmers be replaced by AI than manual workers by androids.
People, please, study what you want to study and not what is "in high demand". Because after you will lose 5+ yrs in university, it will be painfull accept that there is actually no demand for you and your "low demanded" friends, which choose something else is making x-times bigger money than you "high demanded".
Bro you don't no want you are saying c programmers are needed for that for
eg. to programm a robot that will work automatically for those industries like electrical engineering, mach eng and so other, computer programmers are in high demand in order to make things easier and faster
This is the smartest comment in all this section
You need to be a geek to want to do software. You need to be genuinely interested and curious about the details of software dev. If every challenge you face is a chore, you will most likely struggle in the industry. There are things you need to embrace, and indeed enjoy, to be successful in software. It's a little different than some other fields in so far as it should be your hobby as well as your career.
I agree 100%. I’m not in software but I’m an electrical engineer doing pcb design. All the good EEs are in love with the field and the physical phenomena in play. We mega nerds will go without food, water, sleep or hygiene until we figure out why our board isn’t working. And when we finally finish we get to kick back and research more nerdy EE stuff while the SW/FW teams are hustling programming the hardware to hit our ship deadlines. It’s great not being so close to the fire :)
0:18 - "Why is it so difficult to get a job if you gone to school for computer science". As SW engineer and interviewer, I've never seen a single case. Of course, if you have just graduated you won't get a senior job. But you'll definitely get a junior job. As for "self-taught" or "bootcamp", I agree. It depends on the person.
As for why is it easier for a CS graduate to enter the field unlike others: It's not really about how much coding you perform in school. I'd actually say that a self-taught person would have more hands-on experience. It's about the fact that you learn how to think and how to approach and solve different kind of problems. It's more about the core idea of problem solving, not the coding itself. It's about the fact that you study on a much deeper level, how computers work and what computing actually means. You have the core theoretical fundamentals from a mathematical perspective and you have a very clear idea of how the computers and software work bottoms-up. And about the fact that someone can just throw at you some insane task and you'd have higher chances of fulfilling it than a person with years of hands-on experience.
Looking for a job and getting hired is completely a joke . Companies are not willing to train anybody and if you are a software engineer why don't just open your own business?? And even if you get hired how long you're going to last? How many people lost their jobs with Microsoft? Netflix? and who knows how many? The real problem in United States is that companies do not provide any training, why Korean, Germans, Japanese are more far efficient and productive than us? Job is something that should fit your existence your life your future and your economic stability which many don't have.
I wonder if becoming a software engineer is similar to the culinary field. There, even if you went to school, you might start as a dishwasher or prep cook. Then you work your way to the fry station, etc. etc. I know when I went to school for culinary, they promised that you would be a chef right after graduating, but that wasn't the case for anyone I know.
Just a thought.
it is. Start small, learn about databases first or dev ops, QA, cloud management, automation. You can move from there.
you could start as tester i guess or some of the bs office jobs out there
@@AtticusDenzilDev Ops, QA or a cloud engineer is a bs office job? I didn't know that. Link me the tutorials you watch so I can get up to your level of software engineering please.
Aim for one thing to do, not to be a full stack developer. First aim for the language of your platform learn it well, really well. Then aim for the basics of the framework, get to do that and then do your own applications. Publish them and do your researches. Those are the people who stand up.
I Love Your Insight; You Help Me In ways I don't Think You Know; Thanks So Much ~
So happy to hear!