the post office and alan Bates' knighthood
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- this comes hard on the heels of his refusal to accept an OBE because Paula Vennells still retained her honour despite her role in the intimidation and humiliation of 900 subpostmasters
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I believe the Honours System has been completely and utterly discredited in recent years, which is a great shame for people like Mr Bates who are so deserving. .
My best friend has just received the BEM for 60 years contribution to Girl Guiding. I’ve another friend with an OBE for her work with resilience to flooding. Both very well deserved for their contributions to not only their own communities but to the wider population. Along with many others, including Alan Bates , these are the very people who we SHOULD be honouring. As for the rest, they can sweep them away.
@@Lynnefromlynsame. A colleague received a knighthood for his breakthrough work in cancer.
I agree sadly
In Australia recently two State Premiers have been given awards partly for their actions during covid where they acted like pure dictators , using the police with batons , shields and helmets to virtually force people to stop walking in parks and to hide in their homes , with no empathy towards their fellow citizens .
Alan Bates is in poor company but I absolutely congratulate him on this well-deserved honour.
An incredible man.
Well done computer weekly, Private eye and a number of MPs for publicising this and the brave post master lead by Sir Alan Bates
The most alarming thing in my opinion is the complete failure of the legal system which allowed this travesty
Absolutely...as mentioned in a comment earlier it is beyond belief that the justice system will allow this reprehensible behaviour from members of their profession without consequences to the ones that perpetrated this abomination.
To allow it and move on will bring the whole profession into disrepute...I cannot envisage no action at all but do not rely on the governing bodies...it will be actions of the honourable members that will force the backlash...if they do not and wash their hands of it...then the trust has truly been broken
Boy was I ever so pleased for a person to recieve this honour, heard it on the news and had a smile a mile wide.
Justice will not be done until those responsible are made accountable for their actions. It shouldn’t be the taxpayers that are made to pay for someone else’s crimes.
They will be largely found "not to be fit to stand trial".
Well unless a court of law says that Fujitsu are at fault and need to compensate those who have been wronged, then I fear that it will be yours and mine taxes that pays for this mess because I doubt that the RM managers at fault wouldn't have the personal finances to meet to full scale of all the costs awarded.
@@garethbuckeridge6910 Correct.
Arise, Sir Alan Bates. Well done Sir, and total disrespect and jail to Paula V.
Bates deserves the Honour, but not the company of most who reserved a knighthood.
@TurnipstalkExactly!
@Turnipstalk I understand your point but dispute your thoughts on "Big pay cuts" these are big pay cuts from incredible heights.
Thank you, PRIVATE EYE!
The spotlight now needs to be turned on Fujitsu and how it has conducted other government contracts.
If anyone deserves the knighthood, it's Sir Alan Bates. He's the poster boy for the honour.
Bates deserves a castle with his knighthood
Such wonderful news, I've got tears on my eyes! Alan Bates is SO deserving of this honour. So happy for him! I'd love to see Nick Wallis get recognition too because he's played a big part in exposing this mess. Cheers from Sydney Oz!
As great summary of this issue and its lessons Professor. The NHS App is also full of issues and could be dangerous. Mr Bates knighthood is a magnificent example of how the honours system should work.
And the NHS is full of monsters like those in the Post Office.
Just finished reading Nick Wallis’s book on the Post Office Scandal. I urge people to buy it.
I have been watching the witnesses on behalf of the PO. Not one of them seems to be responsible for the scandal but are willing to offer an apology. What are they actually apologising for if no one was responsible. It beggars belief that the largest miscarriage of justice recorded but nobody was responsible. A big boy did it & ran away.
I have been watching too. Seems there must have been something in the PO water as they all seem to be suffering amnesia.
Post Office computer skills were clearly at a level seen in "The IT Crowd", such as "have you tried turning it off and on again"! A most deserving knighthood for Alan Bates, well done.
We have those institutions to hold to account. it is called the courts of law. They failed absolutely.
Now how about criminal prosecutions of Post Office executives and investigators, with custodial sentences and financial penalties where appropriate?
It should have been a lordship. He should be in the Lords.
I believe in an upper house, as long as they do not have a final veto. It is needed to temper the excesses of the commons. However, it has many corrupt members, sycophantic cronies picked by governments. It needs to be full of independent people, with established reputations from many walks in life, free from government peer pressure. Yes, I agree. Alan Bates would be an epitomal example of someone who should be in the Lords. One who genuinely cares about people, devoid of self-interest.
Yeah but he does not carry any Party clout, so they wouldn't do that.
Absolutely
Good idea - or perhaps make Sir Alan Prime Minister and Mr Beer Chancellor
A well deserved recognition for Alan Bates - what a thoroughly decent person.
I am still waiting for an answer as to where the "stolen money" is?
As the post office managers submitted the correct amounts then the money was "lost" within the head office!
Was it the intention of insider fraudsters to perpetuate this crime from the beginning and to blame the post office managers by stealing relatively small amounts at a time?
The suggestion that the computerised system was to blame is a great excuse for any online fraud!
I whole-heartedly agree with you.
SOMEONE or SOME PEOPLE benefitted. This line of inquiry MUST be pursued.
No lost money at all. The great leader, Horizon, said there was missing money. A lie. So all the money reimbursed by the long suffering sub postmasters became extra profit. Stolen as were there lives.
Should prosecute those who “took” the funds off the SPM’s just like they did when they said the SPM’s “took” the funds off the Post Office.
Indeed Professor, a monumental miscarriage of justice. But who, if anyone, will be held accountable.
It's a rare combination where not only does someone show great care for others but is also strong enough to single-handedly take on an army and win. This is exactly what a knight is supposed to do. Knights were there to protect the community and had to be brave and very skilful.
THIS IS GREAT NEWS AND MORE
Wonderful news. Congratulations Alan Bates.
A rather inspiring honours list from the King. Very unlike those of Johnson and Truss.
Not much Christianity in the soul of Vennels
Probably a devout follower of Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilatus. Who sees Christ as an example, how to sacrifice others for personal gain.
She might go for a country walk, like Dr David Kelly did...
Does PV have a soul? I didn't see much evidence of one as she gave testimony, despite the tears.
Her Xtianity is cover for her drive for power, control and money. Her arrogance and narcissistic attitude sadly pervades the areas that once were respected. The standard of excellence, fairness and professionalism is only as good as the people who occupy it.
Alan Bates is one of many that took on the fight that was truly beyond belief , That truth should prevail . Totally amazing , It proves there are decent people still in this land .
Well said Professor Tim ❤️
It’s certainly a justified recognition of a humble, intelligent man, with the tenacity to do the right thing for so many who, without his staying power and credibility, would have been bulldozered into submission by the worst of “the establishment” and humanity. And just when we thought things couldn’t get any worse, regarding the behaviour and attitudes of Andrew Parsons, words fail me, they really do.
8:10 Of course he should accept this recognition of his tenacity fighting a totally corrupt and evil regime. Although we all recognise many get Knighthoods, etc, for very doubtful reasons this should does not diminish this man's achievement. Hopefully, others will be inspired to stand up and fight the Establishment where it needs it.
Royal Mail should issue a commemorative postage stamp with Alan Bates's image on it to rub it in. All those PO manages will have to lick one every time they send a letter.
Royal Mail is not the Post Office
@@jbenn43457 The Post Office doesn't issue stamps. It just sells them.
A Thoroughly deserved Honour!
Wouldn't accepting a knighthood be akin to accepting a sweet from the bully who has repeatedly kicked the shit out of you for years?
The King should be concentrating on using all his influence on securing justice for all the spms. Symbolism can wait.
@Turnipstalk the "bully" is the establishment. The royal family have had every opportunity to exercise influence to obtain justice for the spms, and done nothing.
If I knew about the scandal more than a decade ago, so did they. But they are in a position to influence things re the "Royal" Mail as well as POL.
Well said & thank you 🙏 So grateful to the writer of this story & having it made into that programme to finally help get justice after all of these years! I still cannot believe how this scandal was covered up & shame on all of those that helped keep this story from the public who pay for this service! Justice finally
Professor you are so right there is a sense of balance with Mr. Bates taking the knighthood only if Mrs, Vennells returned her OBE. Justice prevails and all of us feel as though the notion of fairness is ultimately restored we feel intellectually and emotionally restored. An open scar left by injustice undermines all our lives. We are thankful for souls like that of Mr. Bates as he had courage to keep fighting for the truth to prevail although my heart breaks for those who lost their lives, livelihood, reputation and deep hurt to caused to the wider families who also need to be saluted.
Deliberately withholding key evidence and giving false evidence and still pursuing more convictions.
Knowing Horizon had bugs that made conversations unsafe.
I doubt that any at the appex will see jail time or suffer for their actions.
As I always say its not what crime is committed, what matters is who you are.
On average fair and equal justice is prohibitive to the poorer in society.
I cannot understand how Post Office Limited continued to prosecute when the numbers of postmasters under investigation kept going up and up - 5, 10, 50, 100, 500.....almost 900. Why did someone in POL think that there was something wrong here? How can almost 10% of your workforce be corrupt?
So good for Mr Bates for being recognized for his doggedness in all this.
@@nigelh3253 Oh they knew, they knew from the very early days of Horizon, they just didn't care. Then the stock market listing made them care even less.
It will be interesting to see after the inquiry if Lawyers involved are struck off by their Regulating Authority.
@@Disco45 Certainly the lawyers involved should be stripped of their licence to practice if they knew from day 1. The problem is that this was a money-go-round for the lawyers, and most of them may have retired by now.
That this scandal was hidden for so long is a disgrace. The Post Office needed much more scrutiny at a forensic level.
Time marched on and prosecutions continued. A disgrace.
No "democracy" can have something as antithetical as a knighthood. Good old Ian Hislop is the greatest PM you never had and likely never will.
Great news to wake up to this morning. It was quite an emotional moment.
Sir Alan has hung on all these years and has never founded.
I often wonder what the atmosphere is like for those who work in the offices at the PO as they see all the rot unfolding on a daily basis in the inquiry commission, with knowledge they are employed by such a tainted institution.
Well done young man for articulating what everyone is thinking everyone with any sense of decency will support everything your saying the difficulty will be to get the government departments to move their arses and finish the process cheers
AI is our next Everest. I've had an epic three month struggle attempting to get a pair of trainers delivered by mail order. On accessing "customer relations" I was confronted by a series of questionnaires that only wanted to know how good their delivery service was.
Thereafter, I was just digging a bureaucratic pit for myself.
@davidjuson5608 I expect its because your dealing with a Algorithm, unfortunately it's everywhere ( just saying )
Peace to all.
Spot on prof great analysis
Alan bates is inspirational
Resilience
Resourcefullness
Just a shout out for the journalist
Nik wallis
His 560 page book on the scandal
Is a very tough and at times
Emotional read
Today is a great day for all those decent people in our society
Who value and fight for justice
Arise sir alan
I salute you
Alan Bates deserves enormous respect. Honours are meaningless symbolism. Ten million pounds in his bank account would be more appropriate
Greetings from Atlanta 🎉 Alan deserves a knighthood for his diligence and determination to see the wrongdoing thru. I viewed the story here in the States on PBS. You are so correct about the toxic administrative culture. I couldn't believe that people could be so heartless and stoic in believing that IT Systems are infallible. But we are frustrated with the US Postal system because of a Trump appointee that wanted privatize the postal system under the Administration. And he was appointed under a lengthy commissioned term. Biden can't dismiss him. Hats off to Alan! You are so correct, "fractured"
Congratulations to him.
Superb!
I would like to see Jo honoured, too. It was her contact with her MP that resulted in this being laid before Parliament by the now Lord Arbuthnot and she was instrumental in setting up the Subpostmasters' Alliance.
I think our political class particularly the Tories could learn alot from Sir Alan Bates.
These are strong (but true) words Tim
Good news about the Alan Bates honour. I wonder about your views on the reputation of the legal fraternity in relation to the Post Office enquiry - Gamekeepers and poachers - both parties earning massive fees.
AND the same effect tarnishing the Labour leader in the forthcoming General Election.
The Solicitors Regulation Authority needs to be investigated by the Legal Services Board that appointed it as a Regulator. I have had better chocolate fireguards than the SRA. Self serving and funded by the lawyers themselves.
If Bates has been Knighted, then surely thats an admission that what he said and campaigned for was correct. So where is the justice? Where are the prosecutions, the sanctions and the punishment for those who willfully perpetrated it?
The entire performance of the witnesses on behalf of the PO at the enquiry has been to avoid taking responsibilty for what they did, trying to make out it was all an 'unfortunate mistake' with no one to blame.
And lets not forget, he (and many others) are still to receive any compensation! Its something when its quicker to get a Knighthood than redress!
Sir Alan is the epitome of what a Knight Of The Crown should be.
Lets not forget that this enormous enterprise actually runs at a loss, lly those loses are picked up by the tax payer .
Congratulations on your Knighthood Sir Alan and Lady Bates from Townsville Australia. Well done that man and lady.
What a bunch of flogs, all saying it wasn’t my job, l’m sorry, l didn’t know etc.
Doing the right thing is apparently regarded as undesirable these days. Something to be avoided in every circumstance, if at all possible.
Otherwise, people might come to expect that the right thing will be done, generally. And that would be the death knell of Conservative Government.
Just look how Andrew Bridgen has been treated for speaking out!
Mr Bates will bring prestige to this title.
Oh, Bates is a good egg alright, but are you lot still not ready to dismantle your ridiculous Lords & Ladies class system? If not, these scandals and injustices will never end.
I'm sure Mr bates would like his money back and compensation to be paid straight away after waiting over 20 years. The knighthood would be lovely for him for all his hard work. but the best thing the government can do is pay all subpostmasters what they are due and stop dragging their feet like they have always done
Often I think they're not that special, those getting honours, but in this case, its absolutely wonderful. Most deserving. Those poor people. I cried throughout the programme, Mr Bates & the Post Office. How terrifying what Hell the State Can put you through or organisations. All too easy for them to do. And how long it went on.
Bates is utterly deserving of the honour. But why not make it conditional of Paula Vennells giving back most or all of the £5.1 million she got from the Post Office while she was in charge..? You do know you can have somebody eliminated for far less money?
Well deserved Sir Alan. Bravo. Perhaps this will bring forth additional attention to this miscarriage of justice to subpostmasters and will put those responsible locked up in prison.
I doubt if in all honesty if Alan Bates cares much for this or any reward or accolade, he is offered.
The damage `is` done and no lives can be recovered or changed and by what a sword across the shoulders?
I wonder if Alan even contemplated his actions before taking upon him his attempt to stand up to the blindsided, bigot's, bullies, fools, hypocrites and liars.
One can see in his demeanour, his self-satisfaction and disbelief in his face at times in that he has achieved so, so much in bring into the light such a what, travesty of bureaucracy where our monies were spent to cover up a failure with even more utter incompetency and ineptitude in those whom pulled the strings.
Thank heavens we still have such calibre of “English Man” in our midst, oh if he was our Prime Minister!
The world would quake !
I sincerely wish Alan refuse such a bauble, akin in a way of accepting 30 pieces more of silver but from Judas himself.
Since the introduction of the Horizon system, how many instances have there been of money being accurately and truthfully "found" in the possession of SPMs which had been deemed "stolen" on the basis of evidence produced by it?
Anyone?
To be honest, while the honour now being given to Bates is significant and symbolic for them all, It feels like an attempt at subversion. More meaningful would be if the whole group of those affected first had the wrong corrected, and then if some unique honour for ongoing courage under a new and terrible kind of enemy fire was instituted and awarded to each of them. They need both a concrete and a symbolic vindication.
If Mr Bates decides to accept the knighthood that is of course well deserved & entirely his choice, however the Post Office is publicly owned via the government, so he would have to accept an honour from the very establishment that sought his imprisonment .
Alan Bates is an amazing and determined man fighting for so long, let’s hope this award means that all those wrongly convicted and accused get a decent financial recompense. Damaged lives though can never be compensated for - not just the sub-PMs but their families too. Paula Vennells is a disgrace to the Church and what it is supposed to stand for, is she still a vicar? I wonder what her parishioners make of her?
(Can’t wait for the cvd & mrna scandals to be brought into the public arena in this country. The Oversight Committee in The USA is taking Anthony “disagree with me and you disagree with the science” Fauci to task. Perhaps we’ll have to wait for the ITV drama?
Not a fan of the honours system, but surely this is what it is intended for.
Against the background of Vennels being shamed into surrendering her own, somewhat lesser honour is particularly delicious and symbolic. For someone like that awful woman this will be keenly felt, and in many ways all the more painful. Her loss of face, respect and status is now complete. Although a prison sentence would be the icing on the cake!
Fujitsu guilty. Prison please.
I thought this guy couldnt be bought, sadly I was proved wrong, shame on him, who the hell wants this crap from a corrupt system
UnfortunatelyProfessor, the Post Office and Royal Mail are no longer connected. They haven't been since June 2012,when Royal Mail was privatised. So, saving the Postal Delivery Service is only tangential to the Post Office business. Sadly, dismantling of that service began long ago when the Conservatives got rid of Girobank, because of their private sector, market fundamentalism. Didn't want it to compete with their biggest donors. That organisation provided banking and financial services to communities with a Post Office, and government. Six days a week. Such short-sightedness, because the private sector - or to be more correct - the donors of the Conservative Party's donors - wants are prioritised over the needs of the community. No wonder the quality of services in the UK are declining, and communities end up being abandoned through policies based on ignorance and prejudice.
He could have left his flippin baseball cap at home for the occasion...
A simple request to list the transactions making up the total trading balance would have uncovered duplications and errors. This should have been the required burden of proof ... but it wasn't asked by defence councils and wasn't questioned by the judiciary .. and then became too difficult and expensive to obtain from Fujitsu who were "holding" POL data - data that should have been readily available to POL and any investigation. Alan Bates proved his position by using 2 terminals of his 3 to print off and compare his trading record - made worse by only being printable on shop receipt print rolls rather than a report file that could be exported to a spreadsheet for analysis. Alan proved he was right and they wiped his main "loss" but he became a thorn - so they got rid of him. In many ways, he was the lucky one .. but determined. Well deserved recognition .. more deserved than many others. We need "Davids" like this against the "Goliaths"
A True Knight of the Realm who heads the group who were maligned and suffered untold misery at the hands of the so called Elite of business and politics .
In total admiration for Mr Bates but I would also be in more admiration if he told them to ‘stick it’. King Charles fronts it which is great but it is also supported by the very people who have tried to cover this up. Great vid Sir.
Im sure he would rather see justice for the sub postmasters and see Vennels et al incarcerated than accept a well deserved Knighthood !!
The knighthood will cause the Post Office compensation division to reconsider its last 2 attempts to pay off Mr Bates with there insulting £offers, as a suggestion take the last offer & increase it 10 Fold..
A new Law passed on Thursday in Scotland. All Postmasters and Sub Postmasters have been exonerated.
This whole debacle reminds me of the Nixon/Watergate scandal in the 1970's where the actions were bad enough, but the subsequent cover-up revealed an elaborate panoply of wrongdoing by high ranking officials. Good luck to Bates, I understand he refused an OBE whilst Vennels had hers.
The root of the Post Office Horizon scandal was entirely human; Greed, pride, hubris, and cold-hearted cynicism won out over basic human decency. It seems to me that Horizon software was not really more error prone than any other large system of it's type, the initial problems experienced could have easily been rectified if PO and Fujitsu operated in good faith. Of course we know now that they were not operating in good faith . Horizon records were a convenient cudgel the PO used to beat the Subpostmasters into the dirt. All to protect reputation of the Post Office and ensure juicy bonuses for everyone up the chain. It makes you wonder how many people had been unjustly ruined by the PO in the less auditable days before digital records.
I wonder if Fujitsu sub-contracted any Horizon work to Infosys?
actually, yes. Infosys have been a global partner of Fujitsu since 2002 which is probably why $unak hasn't really done very much about it to protect wider family interests.
"Well, we've given the Bates chap a knighthood, not sure there's anything else we need to do, is there?"
yea we wait on the mail 4 bloody weeks to recieve a few letters
The Post Office always turned in a modest profit. The bits that were highly profitable were the first to be sold off and privatised. Those highly profitable bits subsidised some of the other bits so overall it turned a profit but sadly the Tories had to break it up and sell it off piecemeal just like they've done with just about everything else. The post office was in days gone by much loved and much appreciated by Joe public. If you cross the channel most major European countries if not all have a state owned Post Office with all the services under one roof and lots of counter staff to assist you in every way you might wish. How different it is in Britain. Shoehorned into a corner of Tesco's or Sainsbury's like some kind of after thought.
You are entitled to your opinion, but, sadly, incorrect on multiple grounds. First of all, an honours system is in itself corrupting. In Ireland, in 1921, one of the first acts of the new government was to abort the honours system. Anyone who accepts an honour is suborned by the state. It is a sad day for our United Kingdom when an outstanding citizen such as Mr Bates accepts a title.
Vennels malign influence. Prison please.
Not offered. Awarded.
As this sorry episode has yet to resolve.I would be surprised if Bates accepts this honour.
Many who have yet to have their cases dealt with, might feel he is compromised.
I have read all about it for so many years. I just can't can't watch the documentaries. I start screaming at the TV, question my mental health & go through a whole mental breakdown threatening to smash up all computers, tear up my stamp collection never to use the postal services ever again. To call it Royal Mail, shafted all the way. Alan Bates should be given a Nobel Peace Prize, for someone like that not to have done a Postie is a miracle. One thing this whole scandal should reveal is how amazingly tolerant the UK are not to have committed a Postie (ie a term used in the US for mass shootings at work after being fired) on the Postal service. The UK are the most tolerant people on this planet. PS: computers are not wrong the humans are!! They only do what they are told.
I was so happy when I heard this news. A reporter your is wife is now a Lady. Alan Bates: She has always been a lady” A true gentleman😊. Would love to hear your take on the awful George Thomson who gave evidence on Friday🇦🇺
Tim, .. maybe this incident, really will help change the acceptance of software's answers to many things? Electronic automation is heralded as being "cheaper" .. which, it's true, .. but, as you mentioned is "inflexible", which amounts to an expense to society, in ways that are hard to calculate, later on.
Is it possible, at the very least, .. for the executives of the Post Office, who in general, claim to know nothing, or little about what happened 10 years ago .. that they magnificently failed to recognize, then .. have these executives to return most of their salaries that they were paid, then .. but, didn't earn?
Is Alan being tempted by the poisoned chalice?
Who is going to prison
I have an alternative view,to me it's the establishment as usual trying to suppress a honest true fighter against the system. "Give him a gong and he will go away".
It could well be that Fujitsu software developers are not to blame. Ironing out bugs out of a new system can be very hard but is very normal. It sounds like POL denied these typical growing pains by claiming that Horizon was not to blame.
For years, i grow up seeing The Post Office as a wholesome part of the British high street.
I wonder why people bother with it anymore?
But hey, each to their own.
All part of the Government destruction of UK society at the Local level.
Alwen Lyons still has her OBE.
King Charles is a just and proper monarch - thank you, Your Majesty, for your compassion.
Nothing to do with the King, none of us know whether he is just and proper and how compassionate he is. The nominations go through boards of civil servants.
2 little 2 late what about the rest of the post office workers!!!!
Technology can be faulty and not perform as per demand...but by far the greatest problem is the human input, garbage in garbage out seems appropriate.
But beyond the input the arrogant assumption that the system works because they were told it works by people not qualified to voice that opinion.
And then the blatant dismissal of facts that do not line up with their assumptions.
Of course there is always the great danger of technology being used by malevolence, seems Fujitsu was somewhat over staffed by those who felt compelled to clandestinely fiddle systems without anyone being aware outside their nest of corruption, it was no accident, it was deliberate interference.
That is where the PO went into the weeds...not one executive had the brain power to see the truth and challenge the narrative, and not one had the integrity to realize that they were sliding down a very steep slope but then felt compelled to unload the baggage on the most venal of internal lawyers and basically inept barristers...maybe that was why they were hired, because they were ruthless thugs that no matter the morality would lick the hand that paid them.
PO Execs, in fact the whole board at that time, should be convicted of gross dereliction of duty, and most imprisoned and then every lawyer that towed this farcical tale should be struck off immediately...they did not perform due diligence, doing as ordered is not a defense that excuse crashed and burned at Nuremberg but they much preferred to just take the shekels ask no questions, and in the process made a mockery of the post office and in particular the judicial system of this country.
Any decent lawyers, and I have little doubt there are some, should be compelled by the statutes and protocol of Juris prudence to defend their profession to the utmost and form a class action against the perpetrators that ostensibly share their same profession, how you can stomach these fools in your sphere of profession that perpetrated one of the greatest miscarriage of justice this country has ever seen. ..do they not get itchy and need a shower every time they meet them?
.
You are of course right
In my view the attempted recusal of judge fraser
Represented extreme arrogance
This week at the po inquiry
We have seen some great
Silk on silk aggro
As for the truly appalling
Andrew parsons
How is he still practising law
Please Turn it down Mr Bates.
Yes, he deserves better, much better and I don't mean any of the current archaic options.
Why were so many PO big cheeses women?