Who paused the video to look up the fake book because it sounded like the coolest novel mentioned on this channel so far? Gotta go find me some eco fablepunk fantasy books to read now.
Thanks for the clarification on the difference between Archplot and Miniplot, that wasn't as clear to me from your published printed material. Also, does this mean then that in a story world where anyone can pick up a grimoire / spell book, and use it properly, is not "magical"?
Thanks for this great explanation! I think the goal is to define our stories to understand them better, and I can do that. That said, there must always be gray area, right? For example... My story is both about individual characters changing (mainly 1, and they have defined arcs) AND the system overall changing. So I think it's a miniplot genre because multiple characters are involved and change, but so does the system as a whole. Also, in my fantasy genre, the story starts out on the magical side--only a few can use it--but we learn later that anyone CAN use it. But it's not as simple as pushing a button; one would have to "train" to use the magic, so that sounds like more "magical" than "sci-fi" to me, but seems gray. Still, StoryGrid has defined this stuff WAY better than anywhere else I've seen. Thanks for the great content!
I like the distinction between magical vs. Sci fi being ubiquity of use case. My college professors distinguished fantasy/magical vs science fiction as "what ought to be" vs "what could be," which doesn't really communicate useful information, just vibes.
@@StoryGrid the difference I've always heard until now isn't about use cases; it's that Sci Fi stories involve technology that can be extrapolated from real science or are in some sense *about* the science -- such as detailing linguistic principles when discussing the alien language, or discussing the unique geology of the alien planet, whereas fantasy involves magic that works by some supernatural means, such as the favour of gods or mana energy or something; and fantasy stories in most cases aren't specifically about the magic, even if the magic is a plot & worldbuilding device. The specialness of a character/user can be an independent variable in either case.
@@MotocrossElf I agree with this. I've always seen it as sci-fi extrapolating on the possibilities of the physical world, while fantasy does the same with the metaphysical, or perhaps, the paraphysical, depending on your definition of the words.
I have an exception to the rule regarding anyone being able to use the technology in science fiction. In the Stargate Universe the ancient gene is required to use Atlantean/Ancient technology. It's true that there is gene therapy, but that doesn't work for everyone.
The book cover of whispers of the verdant helm it is really cool! Gave me new inspirations and since this is completely made up I may steal the title xD
Okay, so let's say you have a miniplot instead of an archplot. How do you get it to feel like a cohesive story where readers care about all POVs and don't feel like it's just a series of short stories? Thanks for any help!
Since Story Grid doesn’t explain them, could you recommend where to go for resources for Anti-Plot and Absurdism? I’m sure your references are better than a Google search. The reason I ask: I can’t just write random words and sentences and declare it Anti-Plot and Absurdism. Or maybe I can… but it doesn’t feel right. I just want to know the… for lack of a better word… “rules” of Anti-Plot and Absurdism. Thank you in advance for any insight.
Sometimes it's hard to nail down Content Genre. What Content Genre are Vengeance stories? Are they typically Action, sometimes War, common in Westerns, occasionally Horror? Could there be a violent Performance vengeance story, where a mentor teaches Protag to be violent, helping him enact his vengeance?
Most stories have an internal and external genre. A revenge story might be an action-status story, or a war-morality story, or a horror-worldview story.
I just can't agree with that definition of fantasy and science fiction. Until this video I'd always heard the overall genre called Speculative Fiction, or SFF -- science fiction & fantasy. And the difference there is that Sci-fi stories involve Technology, extrapolated or at least plausible according to real science; whereas Fantasy involves Magic whose mechanisms are supernatural and don't operate by scientific principles. This seems like a far more functional definition. And yes usually in sci-fi anyone can use the technology but you can imagine situations where only special people can use certain tech, such as genetically coded tech or at least special talent or training is required. And it's equally easy to imagine fantasy worlds where magic is commonplace and most everyone can use it -- it just operates by supernatural means rather than physical laws. There's no reason the use of magic has to be restricted to special or chosen people, even if that's the most common trope.
Maybe a novella set during the industrial revolution? Jokes aside, even though I wouldn't choose that lifestyle myself, it must be great to be so free of technology and fantastic to have such fresh food 😊
I am very confused on your difference between fantasy and sci fi. Fantasy usually has a very different vibe, one that has hope sprinkled through as it is a story of an individual. Sci Fi is one where you find a social and cultural story that can embed fear, control, and balance. This is something you see in Trek, Expanse, but it is also what makes Star Wars, and even Mass Effect, a fantasy over Sci Fi, despite the setting. Beyond that, is there not also fantasy narratives where magic is, at least in some way, universal? Sure Sci Fi doesn't have the same chosen one mentality, but is not a large difference?
@Thecreativecontinuum8 If you're using Story Grid's definitions, Fantasy is defined by the setting leaf of the 5-leaf genre clover. You're describing a core emotion of Fantasy as Hope--but Hope isn't an essential emotion to tell a story in a world with supernatural entities. An argument could be made that hope is pervasive in fantasy because of the questing narratives in fantasy stories, but then that would mean hope isn't so much a component of the fantastic as it is the structure of seeking something in narrative--which means any story where a character has an object of desire is about hope in some capacity. In Story Grid terms, that's every story--which means the distinction isn't useful for purposes of refining what you're trying to accomplish with a story. Sci Fi as social stories about fear, control and balance is also a peculiar definition. Why wouldn't stories like Pride and Prejudice be Sci Fi, by that framing? How is The Martian a Science Fiction story if it's about one man surviving on mars?
I admire the passion with which he speaks, but the different leaves are pretty idiosyncratic redefinitions. Short stories vs. novels aren’t genres in the way the word is commonly understood by well-spoken, well-read people. These are all more accurately described as elements of fiction. Fantasy and sci-fi are their own genres with obligatory scenes, settings, etc. and fall under a broader category of speculative fiction. There are a lot of brilliant minds with idiosyncratic takes on the world of story, but saying one story model is “correct” or there is a brand-new definition of genre that is more correct than all others may be good marketing, but isn’t accurate. There’s a lot of good thinking in the Story Grid, but there isn’t one definition of genre to rule them all. I haven’t ever heard a single best-selling fantasy author say they’re not really writing fantasy, but some other genre marketed as fantasy.
I sincerely don't agree with the characterization of YA. I think there needs to be at least some deliberate emphasis on the experiences of young adults--often a teenager protagonist experiencing the challenges of that stage of life. If "PG-13" were truly the only criterion, then the wholesome Mennonite romances old ladies read would count, and they definitely don't; and so would many great classics, even though they also don't--often being serious, challenging literature handling "adult" themes of politics, philosophy, and so on, with difficult language that wouldn't be appealing to most YA readers.
Who paused the video to look up the fake book because it sounded like the coolest novel mentioned on this channel so far? Gotta go find me some eco fablepunk fantasy books to read now.
Super helpful, this helped especially after I read The Story Grid book. Now it makes even more sense, thanks so much!
Thanks for the clarification on the difference between Archplot and Miniplot, that wasn't as clear to me from your published printed material.
Also, does this mean then that in a story world where anyone can pick up a grimoire / spell book, and use it properly, is not "magical"?
Thanks for this great explanation! I think the goal is to define our stories to understand them better, and I can do that. That said, there must always be gray area, right? For example...
My story is both about individual characters changing (mainly 1, and they have defined arcs) AND the system overall changing. So I think it's a miniplot genre because multiple characters are involved and change, but so does the system as a whole.
Also, in my fantasy genre, the story starts out on the magical side--only a few can use it--but we learn later that anyone CAN use it. But it's not as simple as pushing a button; one would have to "train" to use the magic, so that sounds like more "magical" than "sci-fi" to me, but seems gray.
Still, StoryGrid has defined this stuff WAY better than anywhere else I've seen. Thanks for the great content!
good map
I like the distinction between magical vs. Sci fi being ubiquity of use case. My college professors distinguished fantasy/magical vs science fiction as "what ought to be" vs "what could be," which doesn't really communicate useful information, just vibes.
Yeah that kind of sounds-helpful-but-not-actually-helpful advice pervades the writing space. - Tim
@@StoryGrid the difference I've always heard until now isn't about use cases; it's that Sci Fi stories involve technology that can be extrapolated from real science or are in some sense *about* the science -- such as detailing linguistic principles when discussing the alien language, or discussing the unique geology of the alien planet, whereas fantasy involves magic that works by some supernatural means, such as the favour of gods or mana energy or something; and fantasy stories in most cases aren't specifically about the magic, even if the magic is a plot & worldbuilding device. The specialness of a character/user can be an independent variable in either case.
@@MotocrossElf I agree with this. I've always seen it as sci-fi extrapolating on the possibilities of the physical world, while fantasy does the same with the metaphysical, or perhaps, the paraphysical, depending on your definition of the words.
I have an exception to the rule regarding anyone being able to use the technology in science fiction. In the Stargate Universe the ancient gene is required to use Atlantean/Ancient technology. It's true that there is gene therapy, but that doesn't work for everyone.
The book cover of whispers of the verdant helm it is really cool! Gave me new inspirations and since this is completely made up I may steal the title xD
Okay, so let's say you have a miniplot instead of an archplot. How do you get it to feel like a cohesive story where readers care about all POVs and don't feel like it's just a series of short stories? Thanks for any help!
Since Story Grid doesn’t explain them, could you recommend where to go for resources for Anti-Plot and Absurdism? I’m sure your references are better than a Google search.
The reason I ask: I can’t just write random words and sentences and declare it Anti-Plot and Absurdism. Or maybe I can… but it doesn’t feel right. I just want to know the… for lack of a better word… “rules” of Anti-Plot and Absurdism. Thank you in advance for any insight.
There’s more information in both the book and the website. - Tim
Sometimes it's hard to nail down Content Genre. What Content Genre are Vengeance stories? Are they typically Action, sometimes War, common in Westerns, occasionally Horror? Could there be a violent Performance vengeance story, where a mentor teaches Protag to be violent, helping him enact his vengeance?
Most stories have an internal and external genre.
A revenge story might be an action-status story, or a war-morality story, or a horror-worldview story.
I just can't agree with that definition of fantasy and science fiction. Until this video I'd always heard the overall genre called Speculative Fiction, or SFF -- science fiction & fantasy. And the difference there is that Sci-fi stories involve Technology, extrapolated or at least plausible according to real science; whereas Fantasy involves Magic whose mechanisms are supernatural and don't operate by scientific principles. This seems like a far more functional definition. And yes usually in sci-fi anyone can use the technology but you can imagine situations where only special people can use certain tech, such as genetically coded tech or at least special talent or training is required. And it's equally easy to imagine fantasy worlds where magic is commonplace and most everyone can use it -- it just operates by supernatural means rather than physical laws. There's no reason the use of magic has to be restricted to special or chosen people, even if that's the most common trope.
Can you provide examples of books that contradict the definition and support your examples? If so, please list them so others can review them. Thanks.
I need recommendations for Amish Science Fiction
Maybe a novella set during the industrial revolution?
Jokes aside, even though I wouldn't choose that lifestyle myself, it must be great to be so free of technology and fantastic to have such fresh food 😊
_Pennsylvania_ by Michael Bunker. If you look up the fan fiction collection _Tales from Pennsylvania_ , I have a short story in there. - Tim
Amish Vampires in Space, by Kerry Nietz
@EricKay_Scifi That's a perfect title, lol.
Who else is mad the most interesting book in the beginning is made up?
I mean----it's available to write!
I am very confused on your difference between fantasy and sci fi. Fantasy usually has a very different vibe, one that has hope sprinkled through as it is a story of an individual. Sci Fi is one where you find a social and cultural story that can embed fear, control, and balance. This is something you see in Trek, Expanse, but it is also what makes Star Wars, and even Mass Effect, a fantasy over Sci Fi, despite the setting. Beyond that, is there not also fantasy narratives where magic is, at least in some way, universal? Sure Sci Fi doesn't have the same chosen one mentality, but is not a large difference?
@Thecreativecontinuum8 If you're using Story Grid's definitions, Fantasy is defined by the setting leaf of the 5-leaf genre clover. You're describing a core emotion of Fantasy as Hope--but Hope isn't an essential emotion to tell a story in a world with supernatural entities.
An argument could be made that hope is pervasive in fantasy because of the questing narratives in fantasy stories, but then that would mean hope isn't so much a component of the fantastic as it is the structure of seeking something in narrative--which means any story where a character has an object of desire is about hope in some capacity. In Story Grid terms, that's every story--which means the distinction isn't useful for purposes of refining what you're trying to accomplish with a story.
Sci Fi as social stories about fear, control and balance is also a peculiar definition. Why wouldn't stories like Pride and Prejudice be Sci Fi, by that framing? How is The Martian a Science Fiction story if it's about one man surviving on mars?
Regarding Fantasy having hope sprinkled through, I wonder if you've run into Grim Dark yet?
I admire the passion with which he speaks, but the different leaves are pretty idiosyncratic redefinitions. Short stories vs. novels aren’t genres in the way the word is commonly understood by well-spoken, well-read people. These are all more accurately described as elements of fiction. Fantasy and sci-fi are their own genres with obligatory scenes, settings, etc. and fall under a broader category of speculative fiction. There are a lot of brilliant minds with idiosyncratic takes on the world of story, but saying one story model is “correct” or there is a brand-new definition of genre that is more correct than all others may be good marketing, but isn’t accurate. There’s a lot of good thinking in the Story Grid, but there isn’t one definition of genre to rule them all. I haven’t ever heard a single best-selling fantasy author say they’re not really writing fantasy, but some other genre marketed as fantasy.
I sincerely don't agree with the characterization of YA. I think there needs to be at least some deliberate emphasis on the experiences of young adults--often a teenager protagonist experiencing the challenges of that stage of life. If "PG-13" were truly the only criterion, then the wholesome Mennonite romances old ladies read would count, and they definitely don't; and so would many great classics, even though they also don't--often being serious, challenging literature handling "adult" themes of politics, philosophy, and so on, with difficult language that wouldn't be appealing to most YA readers.
I don't agree. Young Adult is usually romance and it does have sex as far as I know.
England gangland isn't a genre and also academia. Layer Cake is crime and Secret History is literary