"--Never has a war been so courteously declared. It was on parchment, with calligraphy and ""Your highness we beseech on this day in Philadelphia to bite me, if you please.""
The first few times I saw this, I was thinking, "These kids are idiots." Then I realized that back in the day, we didn't grow up learning and knowing about this stuff. Very strange to think about life before 9/11.
This epsidoe, as the description of the video says, was specifically made after 9/11. So I think the kids' comments/questions were intentional, post-9/11 one again. It premiered in October 2001, produced quickly after 9/11. Critics have different takes on this episode, I think most like it but some found it a bit off-balance to the typical episodes and creator/lead writer Aaron Sorkin said himself he felt a bit lost writing this.
@@babaji1604 Understandable being lost on this one. Even more so at that time. With the cold war over we were in a golden age that suddenly and without warning ended.
@@strenifstrecs2551 On 911 we finely understood what Isreal has faced since God grated them their land / Home. But Sam is right no one has left the U.S.A. because of 911 and no Jew in Isreal leaves their home because they may get bombed
"Back in the day" for me was the height of the Cold War. Listening to Idiot Ronnie saying that the bombers would take off in five minutes, and hearing on the news that we were at the highest alert level since the Kennedy Administration. Having to conduct "bomb drills" and sitting in lectures to tell us how to still be identifiable after a nuclear strike. Watching shows like "The Day After". The Iranian Hostage Crisis. Reading books like "A Republic of Insects and Grass" by Johnathan Schell. Those were pretty heady things to have to worry about...
That entire intro is completely ruined by the addition of Donna stating "and I get a boyfriend". No one Donna, absolutely no one that early on in the series and especially at that moment in time gave a rats ass about your relationship status. I really wish they had left that part out.
@@RomanCoronadoit was Janel Maloney saying it, meaning "and my character gets a boyfriend." I thought it was charming and, at the time, a necessary reminder that things would eventually get back to normal in some ways.
Exactly. Algeria is a good example of a country whose independence arose from a guerrilla war that would be considered terrorism under the present use of the term. The French, incidentally, fought terror with terror and torture, and still lost.
Israel is, too. It’s two leading political camps - labor Zionists and revisionist Zionists - emerged out of two terrorist movements fighting the British (with the latter a LOT more violent and terrorist-y.)
This episode had some ordinary writing and worse history. Throughout the post-WWII period of decolonisation many countries gained independence through movements which fit the definition of terrorists. I
Back there - a very true statement. If you read about time from '70s to 90s - terrorism was the normal way of life in Israel. Busses being blown up, suicide bombers, hijackings, stabbings on the street, schools taken hostage. Not saying Israel retaliated appropriately - in many cases not - but USA does the same for example
@@Bergen98 yes, some of the things israel did in response, like building a wall, have been frowned upon by outsiders, but the fact is that they've saved lives.
@YNot1989 It's never terrorism, it's "armed struggle". Unsuccessful terrorists are called "executed traitors", Successful ones are called "founding fathers"
Golly, what happened to 🇨🇺 Cuba‘s Airliner filled with teenagers for the Olympic fencing team-when the USA blew them out of the sky...?! #EveryoneDied#CubanaAvianciónFlight455
She was the last person to speak to the kids toward the end of the episode. This was the special episode right after the 9/11 attacks on the wtc. I believe its on you tube
What a load of crap! so many people complaining about the episode, in fact I enjoyed it! OMG! it's a tv show intended to make people think, not a history class! of course details were mistaken and made to make some people look bad, our country was responding to a horrific and senseless terrorist attack. this show was still some of the smartest tv available (unfortunately that's not saying much considering the crap that is on tv)
Both this one and the one where Sam goes to the office of the guys who sent Ainsly the flowers and fires them are my favorites. And Sam trying to get the tanker deal shut down before leaving the office with a smiling Josh.
I love how this show teaches at least a little bit of history of ACTUAL events. Take the episode where Glen Allen Walken (John Goodman) is about to relieve President Bartlet of his office and he does a little thing about how the BLACK HAND assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria. That act eventually started what would become WW1. I love these little tidbits.
Yeah, I can see that. but it's the little things where Toby is like "am I pronouncing this right?" as if Toby has trouble pronouncing anything. Oh and yeah, no violence in the Civil Rights movement?
@@Strategic_Reformer In fact, the whole point of Martin Luther King's campaign in Selma was to get the city's racist police force to enact violence on the protestors, so it would be broadcast on tv, and viewers would tell their representatives to pass the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
@@withalittlehelpfrom3 if Uygurs started recording the way they are being oppressed by the CCP, is it the Uygurs fault for provoking the CCP or the CCP's fault for oppressing their people?
all religions have a form of extremism. the reason why Israle gets so much attention is because they they are one of the first well documented religious groups out there. also, the Romans weren't exactly the greates of hosts.
I still think it says a lot that even though the UDA's death toll (Ulster Defense Association - not to be confused with the RUC which I is a police force) isn't as high as the IRA's (Irish Republican Army), the majority of their casualties were civilians same as the IRA's, yet the UDA wasn't declared a terrorist organisation for years. Yes the Brits are still there, but chiefly in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland is a seperate country. Could've been brought up here, comparing the atrocities Catholics have admittedly performed against Protestants in the past (ie in France with the Huguenots and with Bloody Mary in England) with the atrocities the Protestants have performed against the Catholics, chiefly in Ireland (Cromwell, the laws dictating what they could and couldn't do, the Famine resulting from the governments mishandling of the blight which many still call a genocide). And they can't say there was never any anti-irish feelings in America when they fled to America for reasons like the famine. And if 'Derry Girls' is anything to go by there was still distrust in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics - no real segregation, just an unspoken understanding that the Protestants still to their side of town and the Catholics stick to their side of town.
What a hard thing to do. But at the time west wing was the cultural phenomenon that you looked to see what they had to say. That show was so human and smart. Still watch it to this day.
The Israel line is very true, a family friend who is from Beirut told alot of storys like the pizza place. One moment you are having a coffee in a cafe 5min later it gets destroyed but the people keep walking like nothing has happend, they are just us accustomed too that sort of stuff.And they know the moment they start to be scared is the day the other guys win
Eddie Izzard has a routine about something similar with the IRA in London. Namely London commuters hearing a Tube line is closed thanks to a bomb scare, who instantly start to calculate which other lines they can take to get to work.
And now they're doing exactly this same thing to the Palestinians, whose very homes they stole. No, I'm not an anti-semite. Whether we like it or not, it is the truth. The same way that the MAGA GOP is doing Nazi Germany stuff in the US today, and getting a free pass for it.
Ugh. This episode is Aaron Sorkin at his worst. NOBODY talks like this. It just feels like Sorkin using sock-puppets to congratulate himself for being so smart.
Again I say...we are talking about the same things, the conflicts of 400 hundred years ago are still here today. As a species, we progress very slowly. We progress, but much slower than we think.
Apologies for commenting on a 15 year old thread, but as this programme embraces principles that are timeless and I'm due a re-watch, here goes... Terrorism DID work for the IRA. Terrorism forced the UK to the negotiating table, and the result was the Good Friday Agreement, which is still standing today (2023). Terrorism itself never resolves a problem, but if it forces a dialogue then progress can be made (This is an academic political observation. I certainly don't support violence.) Also, the very end of the clip correctly highlights the peril that Israel finds itself in. Sadly, the clip doesn't also mention the Gaza Strip for balance. (e.g. In 2008, Israel's 'Operation Cast Lead' resulted in 9 Israeli casualties vs. 1,400 Palestinians killed.)
Not really. There were terrorist organisations on both sides of the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. Although the IRA attacks on mainland Britain got most attention (and to a lesser extent the UVF attacks on RoI), the vast majority of terrorist activity was between the opposing communities. After a generation of inter-community struggle, both sides were 'war weary' and looking for a way out. In 1998, devolved parliaments were being set up in Wales and Scotland: the 'carrot' of devolution / home rule was dangled before the competing parties and, to their credit, they took they opportunity for a more peaceful resolution. It should be noted that the Good Friday Agreement is in fact two treaties: one was the intergovernmental agreement between the UK and the RoI. Arguably the more important one, however was the Multi-Party agreement between the political parties of Northern Ireland. Terrorism did not "force the UK to the negotiating table" - growing opposition to the conflict within the local communities forced their leaders to negotiate with *each other.*
if anything inspired this episode and the episode of 7th Heaven that you mentioned it would of been the events of SEPTEMBER 11, 2001. This episode aired right after 9/11 and before the season premiere (the week before) of West Wing's third season. If you watch the very beginning of this episode with the cast they say that the premiere was pushed back a week.
Arguably, terrorism succeeded in Northern Ireland, because frustration over the Troubles and the bombing campaigns helped push toward negotiations. Terrorists rarely succeed in winning outright by violence, but they do sometimes manage to raise the profile of their cause sufficiently that the terrorized power agrees to negotiate, which they might not otherwise have done.
Agreed, their goal was not the destruction of Britain, it was the destruction of British influence and control. It's also worth mentioning that other "terrorist" movements could be argued as being successful. The Algerians against the French, Nelson Mandela against the White Supremacist South African gov. These were groups that were labeled as being terrorists and I'm sure I could find more examples if I knew more about history. These groups may have unjustly been labeled as terrorist groups, but that's that just leads to the greater point that the opposing groups decides if rebels or terrorists or not and they will often label them terrorists to delegitimize them. History is written by the victor and since the winners never want to delegitimize themselves they will never call themselves terrorists. That's a title that is only attributed to losers, winning terrorists are called founding fathers. So yes, terrorists never win, because terrorists never choose that label.
Terrorism has worked. Vlad Tepes impalments did help keeping the ottomans at the frontier, and we could argue that the terrorist attack against Franz Ferdinard did achieve freedom of Serbians from the Austro-hungarian empire, since it unleashed the great war and erased the empire from the faze of the Earth
+Mauro Daniel D'Ambrosio At that point in history, impaling one's enemies on pikes wouldn't fit the definition of terrorism. People just called that War. And assassinating Franz Ferdinand didn't work either. Instead, Serbia was incorporated into the new country of Yugoslavia. The Black Hand's dream of an independent Serbia didn't come to pass until seventy years later after Joseph Broz Tito died and kicked off the Yugoslav Civil War.
Yeah. More like Palestine. And in another episode. Charlie gave President Bartlett a 18th century map he found at a flee market. He wanted to hang it up but couldn't because it doesn't recognize Israel. That's because Israel didn't exist till the 1940s. I was with Josh on everything right up until that point.
the only thing that I dont like from the ep is that the high school students are a stand in for the american public at the time. and still the ignorance festers to this day, that I bet if I made a poll in the US with the question "why terrorist hate america?" number 1 answer will still be "because of our way of life"
This episode really confused me, especially when there were some pretty explicitly anti-islamic episodes later in the series. Not sure where the disconnect there was (I lied, I do know where the disconnect is)
Teenage Girl: What do you call a society where the pizza place your eating at can just blow up without any warning? Sam Seaborn: Israel. My Little Sister: What do you call a society where anyone can just pull out a gun and start blowing random people away? Me: The United States of America.
The original IRA was involved in the Irish war of independence, I think the Republic of Ireland would consider that a success. This was an overreach for Sorkin he didn't know nearly know enough about any these conflicts and his own global ignorance shows. This lacked nuance and indulged American propaganda.
That could be a calculated piece of writing on sorkin's part; to share the american world view as slightly flawed. He's writing a mixture of talented but not omniscient people.
It's what drives me nuts about Sorkin is the way he falls back on a smug sort of knowitallism. The IRA disbanded in 1923 after winning Independence for 26 counties. The Good Friday accords would never have happened without the Provisionals'' terror campaign, and the details were molded around the demands of the UDA. Also, terrorism played a huge part in the American Revolution, with Loyalist houses being burned and Loyalists often getting hanged. The French Resistance engaged in terrorism until it was integrated into the Free French Army in 1944,except in Algeria where the terrorism continued until that same army withdrew. Afghans have used terrorism to expel three different global superpowers
History, my dear friend, is written by the winners. And to the victor go the spoils. We have been warning y’all for years with our literature and other cultural vehicles; we do us. And we do it good. Look at a globe. We have none of the land and all of the power. Not saying it is fair, just, or equitable. But it is what it is. Just pointing it out.
@Michael Johnson to an extent they were, but no i am not calling them terrorists, I was giving a very loose definition of what differentiates a terrorist from a revolutionary, feel free to disagree with my assessment if you don't like it, but don't put words in my mouth.
what I can't find is "the First Lady's" comments on Isaac and Ishmael...she outlined it best. The Rev Terry Waite, of England, went to the Middle East to negotiate the release of hostages and was taken hostage himself. During his approx seven years of captivity all "they" would allow him to read was the Koran and the Bible. He said he came away from the experience very depressed. He came to realize the conflict was Biblical and would have no end...
I'm sorry, but I had to chuckle at the "life before 9/11". Plenty of people DID understand these issues long before 2001. It did awake much more popular attention, although understanding still seems quite elusive. The more amazing thing, to me, is how much American society has changed, especially in regard to the extension of government power. As someone who has lived and travelled abroad, it still boggles my mind how much change that brought out. from a single attack.
@YNot1989 I have to admit, that is basically true, I guess you could call them rebels to make it sound more friendly, at least here in the US, the brits thought we would last a year on our own, "A Nation of Rebels, How could we have lost?"
@velda 77 that term is incorrect. A revolution is when a political situation changes through violence, but eventually reverts to its original state after some time. That's why the French have their revolution. The American war of independence is incorrectly called a revolution, only because it sounds sexier.
@DAngelo136 What are you talking about? I'm making the point that Americans were "freedom fighters" in the Revolutionary War and not terrorists to counter what YNot1989 said. Nobody were terrorists in that situation. The British were soldiers doing their duty, the Americans were people fighting for their freedom. I'm talking about terrorism here, which isn't the same as war. War is about something bigger, but terrorism is, by definition, about hurting people for the sake of causing fear.
They are completely different. Israel isn't doing the same thing that Rome did. They aren't trying to kill them, and they aren't trying to slaughter entire families like the Romans did.
@ModernBabylon and what was Israel called before 1947? What was the Republic of Ireland called before 1923? The United States before 1787? How about the Confederate States Of America after 1865? Terrorism, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The aims, tactics and objectives within political struggle are fluid, were the French Resistance fighters terrorists? Not against the Nazis. It all depends on where you sit.
I found him credible in this and I've never liked him in anything before or since. Bear in mind that the ability to memorize lines requires some brains, but not necessarily brilliance.
"What do you call a society that has to just live every day with the idea that the pizza place you're eating in could just blow up without any warning?" "Israel." 22 years later, truer than ever. And that's sad. Sadder still, there are people in the United States House of Representatives, who support that pizza place blowing up, and would cheer about it. And those people will be re-elected in 2024.
There's a very distinct and simple difference between a 'revolutionary' and a 'terrorist'. A terrorist, regardless of how noble their cause is, kills innocents or non combatants deliberately, in order to weaken the will of their opposition and further their own agenda. It's extremely cowardly and Sam Seaborn is right, it never works. A revolutionary or freedom fighter does everything they can to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. Often the line between the two gets blurred because civilian casualties sometimes become unavoidable.
i find that this quote explains the difference pretty good. “Demons have existed on the Discworld for at least as long as the gods, who in many ways they closely resemble. The difference is basically the same as that between terrorists and freedom fighters.” ― Terry Pratchett, Eric
this is why right wing gun owners could never hold anything but a terroristic takeover. they are willing to kill innocents, in fact, they have legalized murder in their states already
I strongly suggest if it were as simple as this, the ideological debate around the terminology and its implications would have lasted as long or still be fervently continuing to this day.
@YNot1989 As much as I'm sick of the term "freedom fighter", it does mean something different. When the US fought against the British in the Revolutionary War, it was about making America a free nation, not under British rule. It wasn't about killing the British. Terrorism is aggression. It's about hurting somebody.
@starry4sky guys, honestly, who are you both kidding? do you seriously think that you're going to change either of the other person's minds on youtube?? believe what you believe, but dont waste your breath trying to convince the other guy, because theres a 99.999% you'll be ineffective.
@starry4sky When you say "Palestine would say the same thing" who is Palestine? Hamas, which is dedicated to Israel's destruction? Fatah, which was violently overthrown by Hamas in Gaza? The PA, which says the right things but isn't able/willing to stand up to the radicals? Israel has laid down its arms by ,making peace with Jordan and Egypt. Where are the voices of peace representing the Palestinians who can make a peace agreement stick?
@DAngelo136 I was making the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters, but there are plenty of other roles in a conflict. Confederates weren't terrorists OR freedom fighters, they were just an opposing faction. Native Americans WERE freedom fighters, they just got crushed by the pilgrims. Also the Alamo was a stupid last stand. They should have retreated. But that's another discussion. And it is better to rule in hell. You can fix stuff if you're in charge. Also another discussion.
'What do you call a society that has to just live every day with the idea that the pizza place you're eating in could just blow up without any warning?' 'Israel'...or Palestine.
Yeah, no - Gaza and the West Bank never just "blow up without any warning", that's not and has never been a thing. IDF always attacks military targets (which are unfortunately held by organizations like Hamas and PLO which are known to use human shields and establish said targets in hospitals, schools and civilian populations) In addition, IDF uses leaflets, SMS warnings, knock bombs and various instruments to warn said civilian population to evacuate these areas. Meanwhile, Arabs have been performing terrorist attacks on civilian population for over a 100 years, and in the past 20 years fire rockets on civilian populations (which gets no warning). BTW - that specific lines refers to the suicide bombing in a pizza place in Jerusalem in 2001, about a year after the Camp David summit in which Israel AGAIN offered the Palestinians a state, which they refused, AGAIN, The dead included 14 Israelis, one pregnant American, and one Brazilian, all of them civilians. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing So yeah, no.
Actually, this clip goes out of its way to show that the American revolutionaries were NOT terrorists. A kid asks about us being terrorists at the Boston Tea Party and Sam scoffs at the idea and promptly mocks it, basically shooting it down. I agree with the rest of your coment, though.
So you are saying that Israel doesn't experience stuff where people bomb places where you would go? You also have to remember that this episode showed before Afghanistan became how it is today, and it only became like that after we went into Iraq.
"--Never has a war been so courteously declared. It was on parchment, with calligraphy and ""Your highness we beseech on this day in Philadelphia to bite me, if you please.""
The first few times I saw this, I was thinking, "These kids are idiots."
Then I realized that back in the day, we didn't grow up learning and knowing about this stuff. Very strange to think about life before 9/11.
This epsidoe, as the description of the video says, was specifically made after 9/11. So I think the kids' comments/questions were intentional, post-9/11 one again. It premiered in October 2001, produced quickly after 9/11. Critics have different takes on this episode, I think most like it but some found it a bit off-balance to the typical episodes and creator/lead writer Aaron Sorkin said himself he felt a bit lost writing this.
@@babaji1604 Understandable being lost on this one. Even more so at that time. With the cold war over we were in a golden age that suddenly and without warning ended.
Nice to hear Irish Republicanism mentioned.
@@strenifstrecs2551 On 911 we finely understood what Isreal has faced since God grated them their land / Home. But Sam is right no one has left the U.S.A. because of 911 and no Jew in Isreal leaves their home because they may get bombed
"Back in the day" for me was the height of the Cold War. Listening to Idiot Ronnie saying that the bombers would take off in five minutes, and hearing on the news that we were at the highest alert level since the Kennedy Administration. Having to conduct "bomb drills" and sitting in lectures to tell us how to still be identifiable after a nuclear strike. Watching shows like "The Day After". The Iranian Hostage Crisis. Reading books like "A Republic of Insects and Grass" by Johnathan Schell. Those were pretty heady things to have to worry about...
I kinda wish Netflix included the intro to this episode where the cast speaks and gives a very nice monologue.
That entire intro is completely ruined by the addition of Donna stating "and I get a boyfriend". No one Donna, absolutely no one that early on in the series and especially at that moment in time gave a rats ass about your relationship status. I really wish they had left that part out.
Is the intro on TH-cam?
I kind of wish netflix still had the West Wing
@@RomanCoronado
I'm afraid I have to demand your straight card, sir.
@@RomanCoronadoit was Janel Maloney saying it, meaning "and my character gets a boyfriend." I thought it was charming and, at the time, a necessary reminder that things would eventually get back to normal in some ways.
If I taught history in high school I would definitely make them watch this show.
Exactly. Algeria is a good example of a country whose independence arose from a guerrilla war that would be considered terrorism under the present use of the term. The French, incidentally, fought terror with terror and torture, and still lost.
Israel is, too. It’s two leading political camps - labor Zionists and revisionist Zionists - emerged out of two terrorist movements fighting the British (with the latter a LOT more violent and terrorist-y.)
This episode had some ordinary writing and worse history. Throughout the post-WWII period of decolonisation many countries gained independence through movements which fit the definition of terrorists. I
Let's be honest Sam ... The colonials did a lot worse to British tax collectors than just dump some tea overboard
"Israel". Beautifully written scene.
Agreed. Remarkable scene. Exquisite writing.
Yeah, it didn't age well...
Back there - a very true statement. If you read about time from '70s to 90s - terrorism was the normal way of life in Israel. Busses being blown up, suicide bombers, hijackings, stabbings on the street, schools taken hostage. Not saying Israel retaliated appropriately - in many cases not - but USA does the same for example
@@Bergen98 yes, some of the things israel did in response, like building a wall, have been frowned upon by outsiders, but the fact is that they've saved lives.
@@lancer525 I suspect it didn't sound too great at the time to many people.
@YNot1989 It's never terrorism, it's "armed struggle". Unsuccessful terrorists are called "executed traitors", Successful ones are called "founding fathers"
Golly, what happened to 🇨🇺 Cuba‘s Airliner filled with teenagers for the Olympic fencing team-when the USA blew them out of the sky...?! #EveryoneDied#CubanaAvianciónFlight455
She was the last person to speak to the kids toward the end of the episode. This was the special episode right after the 9/11 attacks on the wtc. I believe its on you tube
What a load of crap! so many people complaining about the episode, in fact I enjoyed it! OMG! it's a tv show intended to make people think, not a history class! of course details were mistaken and made to make some people look bad, our country was responding to a horrific and senseless terrorist attack. this show was still some of the smartest tv available (unfortunately that's not saying much considering the crap that is on tv)
100% ineffective? don't tell the FLN. not that the French want Algeria back, but that was kind of the point.
this is no question one of my favorite episodes!!
There is no scene in which I love this man more than this one.
Both this one and the one where Sam goes to the office of the guys who sent Ainsly the flowers and fires them are my favorites. And Sam trying to get the tanker deal shut down before leaving the office with a smiling Josh.
Brilliant scene and brilliant writing
I love how this show teaches at least a little bit of history of ACTUAL events.
Take the episode where Glen Allen Walken (John Goodman) is about to relieve President Bartlet of his office and he does a little thing about how the BLACK HAND assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria. That act eventually started what would become WW1.
I love these little tidbits.
Yeah, I can see that. but it's the little things where Toby is like "am I pronouncing this right?" as if Toby has trouble pronouncing anything. Oh and yeah, no violence in the Civil Rights movement?
Thats true, there was alot of violence against black people there
@@Strategic_Reformer In fact, the whole point of Martin Luther King's campaign in Selma was to get the city's racist police force to enact violence on the protestors, so it would be broadcast on tv, and viewers would tell their representatives to pass the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
@@withalittlehelpfrom3 if Uygurs started recording the way they are being oppressed by the CCP, is it the Uygurs fault for provoking the CCP or the CCP's fault for oppressing their people?
Very true, I was there for almost a year and though we weren't constantly afraid, it was always in the back of my mind
all religions have a form of extremism. the reason why Israle gets so much attention is because they they are one of the first well documented religious groups out there. also, the Romans weren't exactly the greates of hosts.
I still think it says a lot that even though the UDA's death toll (Ulster Defense Association - not to be confused with the RUC which I is a police force) isn't as high as the IRA's (Irish Republican Army), the majority of their casualties were civilians same as the IRA's, yet the UDA wasn't declared a terrorist organisation for years. Yes the Brits are still there, but chiefly in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland is a seperate country. Could've been brought up here, comparing the atrocities Catholics have admittedly performed against Protestants in the past (ie in France with the Huguenots and with Bloody Mary in England) with the atrocities the Protestants have performed against the Catholics, chiefly in Ireland (Cromwell, the laws dictating what they could and couldn't do, the Famine resulting from the governments mishandling of the blight which many still call a genocide). And they can't say there was never any anti-irish feelings in America when they fled to America for reasons like the famine. And if 'Derry Girls' is anything to go by there was still distrust in Northern Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics - no real segregation, just an unspoken understanding that the Protestants still to their side of town and the Catholics stick to their side of town.
What a hard thing to do. But at the time west wing was the cultural phenomenon that you looked to see what they had to say. That show was so human and smart. Still watch it to this day.
The Black Hand got what it wanted.
I hated this episode and it was a disgrace to the West Wing.
“I heard i was needed i came”
The Israel line is very true, a family friend who is from Beirut told alot of storys like the pizza place. One moment you are having a coffee in a cafe 5min later it gets destroyed but the people keep walking like nothing has happend, they are just us accustomed too that sort of stuff.And they know the moment they start to be scared is the day the other guys win
Eddie Izzard has a routine about something similar with the IRA in London. Namely London commuters hearing a Tube line is closed thanks to a bomb scare, who instantly start to calculate which other lines they can take to get to work.
And now they're doing exactly this same thing to the Palestinians, whose very homes they stole.
No, I'm not an anti-semite. Whether we like it or not, it is the truth. The same way that the MAGA GOP is doing Nazi Germany stuff in the US today, and getting a free pass for it.
Ugh. This episode is Aaron Sorkin at his worst. NOBODY talks like this. It just feels like Sorkin using sock-puppets to congratulate himself for being so smart.
This show favored ONE side 100%...no exception. Love the show -- - but that factor remains. Seems today----some ----are "expressing" a new opinion
Again I say...we are talking about the same things, the conflicts of 400 hundred years ago are still here today. As a species, we progress very slowly. We progress, but much slower than we think.
"A 100% failure rate" You might want to speak to the Taliban in Afghanistan about that.
Gaza.
season 3, Isaac and Ishmael 3x00
Is a special episode after 9/11
Apologies for commenting on a 15 year old thread, but as this programme embraces principles that are timeless and I'm due a re-watch, here goes...
Terrorism DID work for the IRA. Terrorism forced the UK to the negotiating table, and the result was the Good Friday Agreement, which is still standing today (2023). Terrorism itself never resolves a problem, but if it forces a dialogue then progress can be made (This is an academic political observation. I certainly don't support violence.) Also, the very end of the clip correctly highlights the peril that Israel finds itself in. Sadly, the clip doesn't also mention the Gaza Strip for balance. (e.g. In 2008, Israel's 'Operation Cast Lead' resulted in 9 Israeli casualties vs. 1,400 Palestinians killed.)
Even before Good Friday the precursors of the Provisional IRA forced the referendum that gained independence for what is now the Irish Republic.
Not really. There were terrorist organisations on both sides of the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. Although the IRA attacks on mainland Britain got most attention (and to a lesser extent the UVF attacks on RoI), the vast majority of terrorist activity was between the opposing communities. After a generation of inter-community struggle, both sides were 'war weary' and looking for a way out.
In 1998, devolved parliaments were being set up in Wales and Scotland: the 'carrot' of devolution / home rule was dangled before the competing parties and, to their credit, they took they opportunity for a more peaceful resolution. It should be noted that the Good Friday Agreement is in fact two treaties: one was the intergovernmental agreement between the UK and the RoI. Arguably the more important one, however was the Multi-Party agreement between the political parties of Northern Ireland. Terrorism did not "force the UK to the negotiating table" - growing opposition to the conflict within the local communities forced their leaders to negotiate with *each other.*
if anything inspired this episode and the episode of 7th Heaven that you mentioned it would of been the events of SEPTEMBER 11, 2001. This episode aired right after 9/11 and before the season premiere (the week before) of West Wing's third season. If you watch the very beginning of this episode with the cast they say that the premiere was pushed back a week.
Arguably, terrorism succeeded in Northern Ireland, because frustration over the Troubles and the bombing campaigns helped push toward negotiations. Terrorists rarely succeed in winning outright by violence, but they do sometimes manage to raise the profile of their cause sufficiently that the terrorized power agrees to negotiate, which they might not otherwise have done.
Agreed, their goal was not the destruction of Britain, it was the destruction of British influence and control.
It's also worth mentioning that other "terrorist" movements could be argued as being successful. The Algerians against the French, Nelson Mandela against the White Supremacist South African gov. These were groups that were labeled as being terrorists and I'm sure I could find more examples if I knew more about history.
These groups may have unjustly been labeled as terrorist groups, but that's that just leads to the greater point that the opposing groups decides if rebels or terrorists or not and they will often label them terrorists to delegitimize them. History is written by the victor and since the winners never want to delegitimize themselves they will never call themselves terrorists. That's a title that is only attributed to losers, winning terrorists are called founding fathers. So yes, terrorists never win, because terrorists never choose that label.
Isaac was the son of Gods promise. Ishmael was the son of the flesh.
My gov teacher showed me this :)
Terrorism has worked. Vlad Tepes impalments did help keeping the ottomans at the frontier, and we could argue that the terrorist attack against Franz Ferdinard did achieve freedom of Serbians from the Austro-hungarian empire, since it unleashed the great war and erased the empire from the faze of the Earth
+Tyrion Lannister lol, yeah, if you think causing WWI should be counted as a win, then ok...
+Mauro Daniel D'Ambrosio At that point in history, impaling one's enemies on pikes wouldn't fit the definition of terrorism. People just called that War. And assassinating Franz Ferdinand didn't work either. Instead, Serbia was incorporated into the new country of Yugoslavia. The Black Hand's dream of an independent Serbia didn't come to pass until seventy years later after Joseph Broz Tito died and kicked off the Yugoslav Civil War.
I just checked, you haven't answered the question that "Picheradlo1" presented 3 months ago?
His question; Why?
Yeah. More like Palestine. And in another episode. Charlie gave President Bartlett a 18th century map he found at a flee market. He wanted to hang it up but couldn't because it doesn't recognize Israel. That's because Israel didn't exist till the 1940s. I was with Josh on everything right up until that point.
the only thing that I dont like from the ep is that the high school students are a stand in for the american public at the time. and still the ignorance festers to this day, that I bet if I made a poll in the US with the question "why terrorist hate america?" number 1 answer will still be "because of our way of life"
@DAngelo136 My mistake: My comment was aimed at starry4sky. By the time I realized the error, it was too late to correct.
Glad the government had some real experts, because Sam was wrong about almost everything he said...
This episode really confused me, especially when there were some pretty explicitly anti-islamic episodes later in the series. Not sure where the disconnect there was (I lied, I do know where the disconnect is)
Teenage Girl: What do you call a society where the pizza place your eating at can just blow up without any warning?
Sam Seaborn: Israel.
My Little Sister: What do you call a society where anyone can just pull out a gun and start blowing random people away?
Me: The United States of America.
The original IRA was involved in the Irish war of independence, I think the Republic of Ireland would consider that a success. This was an overreach for Sorkin he didn't know nearly know enough about any these conflicts and his own global ignorance shows. This lacked nuance and indulged American propaganda.
That could be a calculated piece of writing on sorkin's part; to share the american world view as slightly flawed. He's writing a mixture of talented but not omniscient people.
It's what drives me nuts about Sorkin is the way he falls back on a smug sort of knowitallism. The IRA disbanded in 1923 after winning Independence for 26 counties. The Good Friday accords would never have happened without the Provisionals'' terror campaign, and the details were molded around the demands of the UDA.
Also, terrorism played a huge part in the American Revolution, with Loyalist houses being burned and Loyalists often getting hanged. The French Resistance engaged in terrorism until it was integrated into the Free French Army in 1944,except in Algeria where the terrorism continued until that same army withdrew.
Afghans have used terrorism to expel three different global superpowers
History, my dear friend, is written by the winners. And to the victor go the spoils. We have been warning y’all for years with our literature and other cultural vehicles; we do us. And we do it good. Look at a globe. We have none of the land and all of the power. Not saying it is fair, just, or equitable. But it is what it is. Just pointing it out.
I saw this episode two weeks after 9/11: every time the word 'crash' was used, I went 🥺🥺
@Michael Johnson to an extent they were, but no i am not calling them terrorists, I was giving a very loose definition of what differentiates a terrorist from a revolutionary, feel free to disagree with my assessment if you don't like it, but don't put words in my mouth.
@YNot1989 One man's "terrorism" is another man's "armed struggle".
what I can't find is "the First Lady's" comments on Isaac and Ishmael...she outlined it best. The Rev Terry Waite, of England, went to the Middle East to negotiate the release of hostages and was taken hostage himself. During his approx seven years of captivity all "they" would allow him to read was the Koran and the Bible. He said he came away from the experience very depressed. He came to realize the conflict was Biblical and would have no end...
I'm sorry, but I had to chuckle at the "life before 9/11". Plenty of people DID understand these issues long before 2001. It did awake much more popular attention, although understanding still seems quite elusive. The more amazing thing, to me, is how much American society has changed, especially in regard to the extension of government power. As someone who has lived and travelled abroad, it still boggles my mind how much change that brought out. from a single attack.
@YNot1989 I have to admit, that is basically true, I guess you could call them rebels to make it sound more friendly, at least here in the US, the brits thought we would last a year on our own, "A Nation of Rebels, How could we have lost?"
of course, many Palestinians also live in fear of their place being blown up without any warning, due to the Israeli's bombing campaigns
Be careful, as of this week in America, that may be dangerous speech.
And they deserve it.
@velda 77 that term is incorrect. A revolution is when a political situation changes through violence, but eventually reverts to its original state after some time. That's why the French have their revolution. The American war of independence is incorrectly called a revolution, only because it sounds sexier.
The idea that terrorism never works is a bit odd to hear. There are people in Ireland who would strenuously disagree with that. Afghanistan, too.
I thought this was the worst west wing episode. so preachy and force-fed. it meant well, but it just didn't do it for me.
uploading an amazing scene in 240p, for shame.
Israel...
@kencenpn thanks, but i looked it up and its like a special episode not in the regular episode number thing so its season 3 epsiode 0 techincially
- What do you call a place where your land can be stolen and house can be blown away at any time by an F16?
- Palestine.
@hollow ichigo KeEp tElLiNg YoUrSeLf LiEs.
Try the black hills of Montana or any of the land or native American inhabitants
I'll bet a millon dolars that the people who replied above me are triggered US conservatives.
Rulers*
@DAngelo136 What are you talking about? I'm making the point that Americans were "freedom fighters" in the Revolutionary War and not terrorists to counter what YNot1989 said. Nobody were terrorists in that situation. The British were soldiers doing their duty, the Americans were people fighting for their freedom. I'm talking about terrorism here, which isn't the same as war. War is about something bigger, but terrorism is, by definition, about hurting people for the sake of causing fear.
so true! I am just so sorry!
This episode may or may not have inspired the 'Suspicion' episode of "7th Heaven".
They are completely different. Israel isn't doing the same thing that Rome did. They aren't trying to kill them, and they aren't trying to slaughter entire families like the Romans did.
Israel is trying to do that right now though.
What do you call a society where the pizza place you're eating in can blow up without warning. Israel. Am Y'Israel Chai.
😎😎😎😎😎😎
Just trying to use humor to shine a little light on the point you were making bud. Totally there with you man.
@ModernBabylon and what was Israel called before 1947? What was the Republic of Ireland called before 1923? The United States before 1787? How about the Confederate States Of America after 1865? Terrorism, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The aims, tactics and objectives within political struggle are fluid, were the French Resistance fighters terrorists? Not against the Nazis. It all depends on where you sit.
neither did Bush apparently
Rob Lowe just wasn't credible playing a smart person.
I found him credible in this and I've never liked him in anything before or since. Bear in mind that the ability to memorize lines requires some brains, but not necessarily brilliance.
Toby asks about the pronunciation.
agree
what episode number/what season is this from?
agree
Those last lines, ringing again
"What do you call a society that has to just live every day with the idea that the pizza place you're eating in could just blow up without any warning?" "Israel." 22 years later, truer than ever. And that's sad. Sadder still, there are people in the United States House of Representatives, who support that pizza place blowing up, and would cheer about it. And those people will be re-elected in 2024.
nice video
ok I'm done. I think your too naive to argue with on this...
@dunskie some do,to this very day.
Thank you
exactly
Why?
the discussions here were idealistic and too shallow ... the international politics are far less black-white as they are portrayed here.
so much better if they would just show the entire episode instead of a few mins sighhhhhh
so now compare Roman occupation to Israeli occupation... same deal.
Every once in a while i think about the fact that it has a 100% failure rate.
Except it doesn't.
When Sam says that terrorism never works he forgets about the one place it did work, Israel
There's a very distinct and simple difference between a 'revolutionary' and a 'terrorist'. A terrorist, regardless of how noble their cause is, kills innocents or non combatants deliberately, in order to weaken the will of their opposition and further their own agenda. It's extremely cowardly and Sam Seaborn is right, it never works. A revolutionary or freedom fighter does everything they can to avoid or minimize civilian casualties. Often the line between the two gets blurred because civilian casualties sometimes become unavoidable.
A revolutionary is someone who wins.
i find that this quote explains the difference pretty good.
“Demons have existed on the Discworld for at least as long as the gods, who in many ways they closely resemble. The difference is basically the same as that between terrorists and freedom fighters.”
― Terry Pratchett, Eric
this is why right wing gun owners could never hold anything but a terroristic takeover. they are willing to kill innocents, in fact, they have legalized murder in their states already
I strongly suggest if it were as simple as this, the ideological debate around the terminology and its implications would have lasted as long or still be fervently continuing to this day.
Also, the moment the state knows you won't kill civilians, they start putting civilians in front of military/government targets.
@YNot1989 As much as I'm sick of the term "freedom fighter", it does mean something different. When the US fought against the British in the Revolutionary War, it was about making America a free nation, not under British rule. It wasn't about killing the British. Terrorism is aggression. It's about hurting somebody.
@starry4sky guys, honestly, who are you both kidding? do you seriously think that you're going to change either of the other person's minds on youtube?? believe what you believe, but dont waste your breath trying to convince the other guy, because theres a 99.999% you'll be ineffective.
You mean Palestine.
Bernardo Grando nop
Both
More so Palestinie
@starry4sky When you say "Palestine would say the same thing" who is Palestine? Hamas, which is dedicated to Israel's destruction? Fatah, which was violently overthrown by Hamas in Gaza? The PA, which says the right things but isn't able/willing to stand up to the radicals? Israel has laid down its arms by ,making peace with Jordan and Egypt. Where are the voices of peace representing the Palestinians who can make a peace agreement stick?
@DAngelo136 I was making the distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters, but there are plenty of other roles in a conflict. Confederates weren't terrorists OR freedom fighters, they were just an opposing faction. Native Americans WERE freedom fighters, they just got crushed by the pilgrims.
Also the Alamo was a stupid last stand. They should have retreated. But that's another discussion.
And it is better to rule in hell. You can fix stuff if you're in charge. Also another discussion.
some haved compared washington as a terrorist
'What do you call a society that has to just live every day with the idea that the pizza place you're eating in could just blow up without any warning?' 'Israel'...or Palestine.
Yeah, no - Gaza and the West Bank never just "blow up without any warning", that's not and has never been a thing.
IDF always attacks military targets (which are unfortunately held by organizations like Hamas and PLO which are known to use human shields and establish said targets in hospitals, schools and civilian populations)
In addition, IDF uses leaflets, SMS warnings, knock bombs and various instruments to warn said civilian population to evacuate these areas.
Meanwhile, Arabs have been performing terrorist attacks on civilian population for over a 100 years, and in the past 20 years fire rockets on civilian populations (which gets no warning).
BTW - that specific lines refers to the suicide bombing in a pizza place in Jerusalem in 2001, about a year after the Camp David summit in which Israel AGAIN offered the Palestinians a state, which they refused, AGAIN, The dead included 14 Israelis, one pregnant American, and one Brazilian, all of them civilians. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing
So yeah, no.
@DAngelo136 and how this is relevant to my comment?
what do you call a place where your house can be blown away at any time by F16??..
Palastine
Actually, this clip goes out of its way to show that the American revolutionaries were NOT terrorists. A kid asks about us being terrorists at the Boston Tea Party and Sam scoffs at the idea and promptly mocks it, basically shooting it down. I agree with the rest of your coment, though.
So you are saying that Israel doesn't experience stuff where people bomb places where you would go? You also have to remember that this episode showed before Afghanistan became how it is today, and it only became like that after we went into Iraq.