@@littlebird619 That's a great question. I think geography and time both helped influence this. I'm most puzzled by the trio chosen, as they have been such since at least 800CE, so over 600 years by the time this ballad was written. So perhaps its origins go back far longer than we can prove?
@@stubbzzz There are two schools of thought on Hoenir, either a less well known god, but still important as he is seen with Odin and Loki on a number of occasions, or it could be a reference to one of Odin's personalities. I will do a video on him too in the future, and I hope you watch it and ask more questions that I can try and answer
@@Crecganford In the norse creation myth there are three brothers Odin, Villi and Ve, however there is another story about this in which the names are changed to Odin, Hoenir and Loptr, there is an american professor jackson crawford who hypothesizes that loptr might be loki because loptr translates in old norse to praised one and loki in a story is reminded that even though he feels aggrieved by the gods that everyone praises him. That's just a theory Hoenir is also suspected as a reference to a hawk as Hoen is a hen and the ir suffix implies shepherd and since you don't shepherd chickens the only thing that could watch over chickens is a hawk.
I love how this story actually fits into Loki's other characterisations, where he attempts a trick that fails spectacularly and still makes it work out through sheer dumb luck.
Loki is also good in the EDDA at the beginning. He often helps the gods against the giants. His best weapon is his sharp mind. Without him, the gods would often have lost.
I can’t remember if I heard this from you or someone else, but I heard a theory that because of how ancient a god Loki is, he must be something primal, and because his name is so similar to Logi, perhaps Logi represents wild fire, and Loki originally represented Civilized fire. Which would explain his duality, sometimes he helps you and sometimes he burns you, but you always have to keep an eye on him. I also recently heard the idea that Thor and Loki together represented Thunder and Lightning. (Thunder’s roar always follows Lightning’s chaos) 🤷♂️ Do you think there is any substance to those ideas about why Loki is sometimes good and sometimes bad?
Hi Ryan, so the origin of Loki's name is not agreed, but his father and children were normally something to do with fire, and so maybe some kin dof cognate with lightning? I'll do another Loki video and will explain what I can in that :) Thanks for watching and supporting the channel
@@Crecganford Loki does seem to follow Thor often during his travels. Thunder and Lightning does seem to make sense. the shape shifting part doesn't match lightning though. Maybe that was a later add on?
The clouds hold the source of our home it is where light lights the night sky the crystalline clouds will forever follow Loki to remind him where he fell from for the curse of a fallen will never leave him till he pays his debt owed to his father a kingdom awaits him by his father's side
@@josephbontrager7051 He is the son of the far striking (lightning) and the leaf island (a tree). So, i believe, the fire after lightning in the holy tree. But it's quite obviously more complicated than that, in view of the etymology of his name.
I haven't read all the stories yet, but I never saw Loki as an evil character. He is an cunning asshole many times, but also smart and sharp. Inconsequential sometimes, but not evil. I feel like, once you have his word, you can trust him.
Loki wasn't good or evil, he was the embodiment of chaos (or at least the opposite of law, order and customs). In this one he is the final one to help a person break an oath - and while us humans don't like the giants, we have to admit that Loki used dirty tricks to fool the giant for what he was actually owed .. Hence the "good" nature of Loki here - sometimes it's not about good or evil but chaos and order, and sometimes breaking the rules are in order!
@@silasfrisenette9226 just an old saying have heard a few times, what is viewed as Loki doing the right thing by helping the couple keep the boy isn't he deceiving the giant which is owed the boy in the first place? Which even though doesn't seem right but what is owed is owed the giant should have gotten what is his. Just friendly conversation/ speculation 😇
What was the myth teaching? A stitch in time saves 9? Loki is the only one who prepares. But why do the 3 gods agree so quickly and give up so quickly? Didn't the father break his oath about the stakes of losing the game with the giant? Didn't the man escape all responsibility for his action? Is that admirable to teach kids? The whole story seems confusing. How did the giant know where the boy was hidden each time? Smart and magic using giant? But then gets his head stuck like a cartoon?
regarding Loki being good or evil, i would say neither. He is certainly devious and jealous at times, but so can also be said about Odin. While Loki often is considered a trickster god, i think that is also wrong. He seem to represent a kind of wisdom or at least understanding of how minds work. Often when the goods are in trouble, due to their hubris, Loki is called upon to solve their problem.
Trickster gods seem to often be on the side of humanity, which puts them at odds with the other gods. So, maybe the people didn't actually think that Loki was bad but thought that they had to say it, to not have their gods against them?
I haven't found a good one yet, not which is in contemporary English. The version I tell here is the best I can find, and I wrote that but I'm sure with more time I could improve on it. If you want me to put a copy of the story I tell in a PDF format for you somewhere I could do that?
Ok, so I've uploaded a draft here; www.academia.edu/s/b86797264b it isn't DOI'd yet, but I'll do that sometime in the next few months, but I'm pretty sure it's 99.5% accurate. Enjoy
So the translation and interpretation of the tale allows it to be understood by people today, and so corn was used as opposed to the term wild grasses.
@@petermaxfield7343The word corn predates the arrival of maize in Europe and means cereal or grain. The Faroese ballad is believed to go back to the Middle Ages, so before Columbus.
Is there any reference to Loki anywhere other than this and th e Icelandic sources? The Icelandic people have considerable admixture with Irish, primarily women. And who is it that most often tells the stories to a child? Are we certain Loki has a fully Scandinavian Origin?
Loki is without doubt Scandinavian, although how his creation was influenced is somewhat of a mystery, there are ideas, but they all have an element of speculation within them.
0:42 Is anyone working on an English translation of the whole "Corpus Carminum Færoensium"? Are there other portions of these ballads/tales that give us more Norse Lore stories/variants?
uhm.. wasnt corn native to the americas? this implies the norse people knew of the americas very early on and that chess is even older than recognized.
The translation was made to make it understandable to most people, the literal translation would have been grass, and by that they may well have meant barley. I hope that clears things up a little.
@@Crecganford wow! was not expecting the man himself to respond. GREAT VIDEO MAN! love your channel! and okay that makes much more sense. so it mustve been translated by the english during the age of exploration and then of course embelished and like you said made relatable for their contemporaries
@@Crecganford trickery in avoiding debts is Loki's forte, though usually in the sense of finding a loophole to paying his own. This does seem to be his place and role with the Norse mythology. Loki seems to be more, or less, a chaotic neutral. He's rarely truly malicious in his tricks, and things (other than the death of Bolder) generally are returned to status quo in the end. But every now and then Loki just needs to cause some drama. I kind of think of Loki as the god of "shit happens", when life decides to throw a wrench in the works, it's Loki. This story seems like a "you just need to ask the right person" story. Loki probably helped more because it was the sort of job he enjoyed as opposed to any true concern for the child. His pride made him finish the job properly.
@@SassyGirl822006 honestly this story seemed to have a very simple moral: that a problem can't truly be solved temporarily. i do think it's odd that "Macho" here thinks that a child should have been eaten for his father's horrible lost bet. should we worry for any children he might have? 🤨
Very true a debt will always be paid one way or another... But the giants are the seeds of the fallen gods Loki made a mortal man cry to the gods to prove to men there is a higher source then them and they will believe or pay the children of men as today we live that curse for forgetting the ancients in the stars the children of men will be binded to a system of men with no freedom to be men anymore. Loki paid a debt as well sacrificed his own seed to save the seed of a mortal man who earned his debt paid as he chose to to turn to the gods for salvation and his faith in the gods was tested not once but 3 times showing that that farmers faith is strong enough to be saved from their own self inflicted damnation as the man by free will bet against demi gods now his only salvation is surrender your child to the hands of the gods or by death we will rip them from existence to be forever gone he paid his dept he gave his child to the gods for test of his faith was proved so Loki returned the child of a man back to the father. Loki might have even been the gaint and trapped the man to collect a karmic debt he has been sent to collect one way or another he men will pay with their children you can never be greater than a god only Loki can save humanity from being being consumed by his own fire in the end of days children of men will be burned alive for they have forgotten who created them the forefathers of men have manipulated and twisted our ways to bind children of men to the laws of men the swine will be reminded one last time our ways or forever burned to ashes to never exist again time is running out debts will be collected soon no one escapes it's the universal law of existence balance must be kept in order to exist ⚜️🔰❇️⚕️🔷👁️🗨️🗝️🌩️🌌🧙🏾♂️
Why do you think Loki was good here?
Do you think it a variant because of its origin in Faroe? Location allowed Loki to have a different personality trait?
@@littlebird619 That's a great question. I think geography and time both helped influence this. I'm most puzzled by the trio chosen, as they have been such since at least 800CE, so over 600 years by the time this ballad was written. So perhaps its origins go back far longer than we can prove?
@@Crecganford who is Hoenir? I’m not familiar with him. Why do you think he would be included in a trio with Odin and Loki. Is he magic or tricky too?
@@stubbzzz There are two schools of thought on Hoenir, either a less well known god, but still important as he is seen with Odin and Loki on a number of occasions, or it could be a reference to one of Odin's personalities. I will do a video on him too in the future, and I hope you watch it and ask more questions that I can try and answer
@@Crecganford In the norse creation myth there are three brothers Odin, Villi and Ve, however there is another story about this in which the names are changed to Odin, Hoenir and Loptr, there is an american professor jackson crawford who hypothesizes that loptr might be loki because loptr translates in old norse to praised one and loki in a story is reminded that even though he feels aggrieved by the gods that everyone praises him. That's just a theory Hoenir is also suspected as a reference to a hawk as Hoen is a hen and the ir suffix implies shepherd and since you don't shepherd chickens the only thing that could watch over chickens is a hawk.
I love how this story actually fits into Loki's other characterisations, where he attempts a trick that fails spectacularly and still makes it work out through sheer dumb luck.
Loki is also good in the EDDA at the beginning. He often helps the gods against the giants. His best weapon is his sharp mind. Without him, the gods would often have lost.
But it was often Loki who made the trouble they had to get out of
@@Crecganford Okay! Like our politicians...hihihihi...
@@jock9796 hahahaha! Yes, exactly!
Wich one of the two eddas are you referring to? The prosaic or the poetic?
I can’t remember if I heard this from you or someone else, but I heard a theory that because of how ancient a god Loki is, he must be something primal, and because his name is so similar to Logi, perhaps Logi represents wild fire, and Loki originally represented Civilized fire. Which would explain his duality, sometimes he helps you and sometimes he burns you, but you always have to keep an eye on him.
I also recently heard the idea that Thor and Loki together represented Thunder and Lightning. (Thunder’s roar always follows Lightning’s chaos) 🤷♂️
Do you think there is any substance to those ideas about why Loki is sometimes good and sometimes bad?
Hi Ryan, so the origin of Loki's name is not agreed, but his father and children were normally something to do with fire, and so maybe some kin dof cognate with lightning? I'll do another Loki video and will explain what I can in that :) Thanks for watching and supporting the channel
@@Crecganford Loki does seem to follow Thor often during his travels. Thunder and Lightning does seem to make sense. the shape shifting part doesn't match lightning though. Maybe that was a later add on?
The clouds hold the source of our home it is where light lights the night sky the crystalline clouds will forever follow Loki to remind him where he fell from for the curse of a fallen will never leave him till he pays his debt owed to his father a kingdom awaits him by his father's side
@@josephbontrager7051 He is the son of the far striking (lightning) and the leaf island (a tree). So, i believe, the fire after lightning in the holy tree. But it's quite obviously more complicated than that, in view of the etymology of his name.
I think Loki is nor good or evil, but the “In-between.” Necessary chaos whether it be good one moment and bad the next, is only contextual.
There were times when he was properly bad... but equally there are times when he was good, although that was usually after he was properly bad! :)
I haven't read all the stories yet, but I never saw Loki as an evil character. He is an cunning asshole many times, but also smart and sharp. Inconsequential sometimes, but not evil. I feel like, once you have his word, you can trust him.
As a Lokean, I thank you greatly for posting this story!
Your welcome. I did ask Jackson Crawford to do a piece on this, which I think he eventually did, if you want to see another take on this.
@@Crecganford I will check that out, thank you!
Loki wasn't good or evil, he was the embodiment of chaos (or at least the opposite of law, order and customs). In this one he is the final one to help a person break an oath - and while us humans don't like the giants, we have to admit that Loki used dirty tricks to fool the giant for what he was actually owed .. Hence the "good" nature of Loki here - sometimes it's not about good or evil but chaos and order, and sometimes breaking the rules are in order!
Sometimes doing the right thing isn't always the right thing to do
@@markodenbrett4363 that's circular and by any logic wrong 🤔
@@silasfrisenette9226 just an old saying have heard a few times, what is viewed as Loki doing the right thing by helping the couple keep the boy isn't he deceiving the giant which is owed the boy in the first place? Which even though doesn't seem right but what is owed is owed the giant should have gotten what is his. Just friendly conversation/ speculation 😇
@@markodenbrett4363 Loki is a trickster in that he is basically the god of breaking social rules and contracts 😅 So I think that makes sense
What was the myth teaching? A stitch in time saves 9? Loki is the only one who prepares. But why do the 3 gods agree so quickly and give up so quickly? Didn't the father break his oath about the stakes of losing the game with the giant? Didn't the man escape all responsibility for his action? Is that admirable to teach kids? The whole story seems confusing. How did the giant know where the boy was hidden each time? Smart and magic using giant? But then gets his head stuck like a cartoon?
Love this story!
regarding Loki being good or evil, i would say neither. He is certainly devious and jealous at times, but so can also be said about Odin. While Loki often is considered a trickster god, i think that is also wrong. He seem to represent a kind of wisdom or at least understanding of how minds work. Often when the goods are in trouble, due to their hubris, Loki is called upon to solve their problem.
You have a wise heart don't lose it you may need it soon🐉🌌☸️♾️
Great retelling
Trickster gods seem to often be on the side of humanity, which puts them at odds with the other gods. So, maybe the people didn't actually think that Loki was bad but thought that they had to say it, to not have their gods against them?
That was a wonderful retelling of this tale. I'm curious if there's other stories from other Indo-European religions that are similar to this.
There are many, and with time I hope to tell many more.
Are you sure Loki actually wanted to help or did he just want to troll a troll 😉
Great retelling!
First time I hear this tale. Thought I knew them all, but apparently not.
Thank you for watching it, I did find it unusual and so I hope you liked it. I have a paper on Academia with a translation if required.
@@Crecganford That would be great! Could you provide a link?
Hard to focus on the content due to odd, over-modulated audio. New mic maybe?
I do now have a new microphone so newer videos should be easier to listen to. Thank you for your feedback.
Did you get an English translation? If so, could you please tell me the book specifically, and where you found it?
I haven't found a good one yet, not which is in contemporary English. The version I tell here is the best I can find, and I wrote that but I'm sure with more time I could improve on it. If you want me to put a copy of the story I tell in a PDF format for you somewhere I could do that?
@@Crecganford that would be nice, thank you, I'll take you up on that.
@@elliot4402 ok, I'll try and get that done tomorrow
Ok, so I've uploaded a draft here; www.academia.edu/s/b86797264b it isn't DOI'd yet, but I'll do that sometime in the next few months, but I'm pretty sure it's 99.5% accurate. Enjoy
@@Crecganford sorry for responding late to this, but I sincerely thank you profusely for this, thank you, thank you, thank you.
I'm curious about the age of this tale. My understanding is that corn wasn't brought to Europe until after the Columbus Exchange in the 15th century.
So the translation and interpretation of the tale allows it to be understood by people today, and so corn was used as opposed to the term wild grasses.
@@Crecganford so, any idea how old is the original tale?
@@petermaxfield7343The word corn predates the arrival of maize in Europe and means cereal or grain. The Faroese ballad is believed to go back to the Middle Ages, so before Columbus.
@@shanegooding4839 thanks. I appreciate your response.
Is there any reference to Loki anywhere other than this and th e Icelandic sources?
The Icelandic people have considerable admixture with Irish, primarily women. And who is it that most often tells the stories to a child?
Are we certain Loki has a fully Scandinavian Origin?
Loki is without doubt Scandinavian, although how his creation was influenced is somewhat of a mystery, there are ideas, but they all have an element of speculation within them.
Loki appears in the Norwegian Rune Poem and several archeological pieces outside of Uceland
0:42 Is anyone working on an English translation of the whole "Corpus Carminum Færoensium"? Are there other portions of these ballads/tales that give us more Norse Lore stories/variants?
Not actively, in fact I believe I have produced the only published translation of this tale, and will do others when time allows in a year or two.
Why do you write Hænir but say Hønir? Is Æ and Ø used differently when referencing old Norse?
Æ and Ø are quite different sounds. But English has neither character and I assume that is, at least in part, the reason
Pl.present the comments with sub titles.
uhm.. wasnt corn native to the americas? this implies the norse people knew of the americas very early on and that chess is even older than recognized.
The translation was made to make it understandable to most people, the literal translation would have been grass, and by that they may well have meant barley. I hope that clears things up a little.
@@Crecganford wow! was not expecting the man himself to respond. GREAT VIDEO MAN! love your channel!
and okay that makes much more sense. so it mustve been translated by the english during the age of exploration and then of course embelished and like you said made relatable for their contemporaries
Corn is used to describe any grain in this era.
The binding of Isaac
The bible was written in layers.
In the oldest layer, Isaac is killed.
Loki good??? The giant won the bet, he deserved the son, did nothing wrong... The farmer had no honour, no word.
Indeed, but Loki saved the son, you think that is not Loki showing benevolence, but trickery in aiding the farmer not to pay his due?
@@Crecganford trickery in avoiding debts is Loki's forte, though usually in the sense of finding a loophole to paying his own. This does seem to be his place and role with the Norse mythology. Loki seems to be more, or less, a chaotic neutral. He's rarely truly malicious in his tricks, and things (other than the death of Bolder) generally are returned to status quo in the end. But every now and then Loki just needs to cause some drama. I kind of think of Loki as the god of "shit happens", when life decides to throw a wrench in the works, it's Loki.
This story seems like a "you just need to ask the right person" story. Loki probably helped more because it was the sort of job he enjoyed as opposed to any true concern for the child. His pride made him finish the job properly.
@@SassyGirl822006 honestly this story seemed to have a very simple moral: that a problem can't truly be solved temporarily.
i do think it's odd that "Macho" here thinks that a child should have been eaten for his father's horrible lost bet. should we worry for any children he might have? 🤨
Very true a debt will always be paid one way or another... But the giants are the seeds of the fallen gods Loki made a mortal man cry to the gods to prove to men there is a higher source then them and they will believe or pay the children of men as today we live that curse for forgetting the ancients in the stars the children of men will be binded to a system of men with no freedom to be men anymore. Loki paid a debt as well sacrificed his own seed to save the seed of a mortal man who earned his debt paid as he chose to to turn to the gods for salvation and his faith in the gods was tested not once but 3 times showing that that farmers faith is strong enough to be saved from their own self inflicted damnation as the man by free will bet against demi gods now his only salvation is surrender your child to the hands of the gods or by death we will rip them from existence to be forever gone he paid his dept he gave his child to the gods for test of his faith was proved so Loki returned the child of a man back to the father. Loki might have even been the gaint and trapped the man to collect a karmic debt he has been sent to collect one way or another he men will pay with their children you can never be greater than a god only Loki can save humanity from being being consumed by his own fire in the end of days children of men will be burned alive for they have forgotten who created them the forefathers of men have manipulated and twisted our ways to bind children of men to the laws of men the swine will be reminded one last time our ways or forever burned to ashes to never exist again time is running out debts will be collected soon no one escapes it's the universal law of existence balance must be kept in order to exist ⚜️🔰❇️⚕️🔷👁️🗨️🗝️🌩️🌌🧙🏾♂️
@@adultdeleted Loki will try to save you before he has to kill you
"Why does no one want to follow me anymore?"
Lament of a TH-camr