I am insulted by his lack of belief in "death panels". We have seen these playing out in Britain for nearly 10 years at least. A hospital board decides to end treatment, and most of the time, if not 100% of the time the board is upheld by the courts, and the person's life is terminated. Strangely enough, UT actually seems to be young people that are suffering the most. In the mean time, his style of "caring for the least of these" has opened Great Britain to massive immigration which is driving up housing prices over the inflation rate, driving general crime rates and assaults up, and creating networks of pedophile offenders that are viewed as being nearly above the law. Lotus Eaters podcast discuss all of these things in detail, even if their humor and language is not Christian standard.
He pastured an Orthodox Presbyterian Church locally in Ambler, Pa. He is a true complimrntarian and not at all a liberal. . .he is totally on point amd shows how when many Americans are talking about religion they really are thinking politically.. He us a very helpful corrective to Jingoism. None if his points were accidental, they were truly careful amd he is not, advocating for a civil religion. They book profoundly identifies that the soil was toiled for a personality cult like Trump as far back as 2010.
@@johntobey1558 Thrre is no 3rd way. There is only ONE WAY. Trump's policies support freedom of religion while Drmocrats and RINOs push tyranny and antichrist.
@@johntobey1558 Trueman is ambiguous every time he says anything. This is called dissemulation. The law of contradiction means that you must let your yes be yes and your no be no. No true Christian could vote for politicians who fund and push the baby murder industry and the LGBTQIA+ proselytization of America. That is true of both parties. Trump is not an Evangelical Christian. But neither is Carl Trueman. He is a lying Marcost and a socialist. True Christianity supports capitalism and the Protestant work ethic, not the welfare state and subsidized laziness and irresponsibility. The left subsidizes crime and anarchy. Read Romans 13.
Palin is right...especially now, with transplant hospitals saying if no jab, no transplant!!! & surgery for older folks is definitely rationed, they have so many ways to weasel out of helping seniors; very quietly done. hospital or insurance...
Thank you Jon. This was very helpful and looks to be the start of a very helpful series! I wish I could come to the men's retreat but it's too far for me. If you ever hold a conference in the southeast I would come. God bless you.
Someone relishing the writings of Karl Marx, but also "committed to the Reformation spirit of ...Luther and ...Calvin" sounds more like someone who is very confused... or at least out of touch with reality.
Jon, I happened upon your TH-cam channel just before this year’s SBC conference Andrew have been interested in many of these important conversations. This one in particular caught y attention because I am co-leading our church’s Colson Fellows cohort, and we will be reading Trueman’s new book, Strange New World, this year. Thanks for laying down a basic understanding of his thinking, at least 12 years ago. This will help me be more discerning concerning the content we will encounter.
Please review Roger E Olson’s how to be Evangelical without being Conservative published by Zondervan in 2008. I know he’s not reformed but he certainly brought the Arminian wing of evangelicalism to think more progressively with this book. This was one of the first books that I remember making the case that one can be Evangelical and progressive simultaneously.
Jon, I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but I have an idea for something you could do to extend the time after the retreat. This idea comes from the EFree pastor you just interviewed. He asked the excellent question, where are all these conservative southern Baptists going? Is there an association that’s being formed for people who are fleeing all the Wokeness? I think this question deserves to be at least brainstormed. And it’s high time! We who believe the Bible need the fellowship and direction in fulfilling God’s command to assemble with other believers. we need to hear and sound God’s Clarion call, “let my people go that they may worship Me!” We need to be like the Separatists of old. There is such a dearth of sound, trustworthy churches. A reformation needs to include this: a re-formation of the church!
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast yes! Figuring you’ll have a lot of good minds there and most importantly men who will pray and seek God for a plan for the church Christ died for. The sheep are confused and starving out there! We desperately need sound churches. The void left by these gone-woke churches is immense. I’d way rather meet in a field than in a heretical church. Thanks again Jon for the work you do to help Christ’s precious body. So appreciate all the time and sacrifice. Soli Deo Gloria!!!
I'll take the field too! We left our SBC church only to find a moderately better one. The new pastor spoke out against BLM, yet voted for Ed Litton (more out of ignorance) and said that Christians should not be about a donkey or an elephant, but about a lamb.
Our island of Penang, Malaysia is a medical tourist island. People from other countries come for surgical and medical care because they can get high quality medical care and pay cash for it. I only paid $250 for an MRI and an orthopedist for my back. It can be done and I got excellent care.
Ha! l guess its about at 24 minutes when you talk about abortion being a wedge issue and how it alienates 'serious people and intelligent conversation'. l think about that ''professing to be wise they became fools'' passage. These people think too hard.
Wait, this guy "relishes" the writings of the Christ-hating, demon influenced (maybe possessed) Karl Marx?! I have Trueman's other book, " The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self", but I've been buried under books and haven't gotten to it yet. Now I'm wondering if I even want to!
Rise and Triumph provides significant historical insight into the current rise of “self identity”. It’s not proscriptive but descriptive if you want to understand the current trans craze.
@@dmaddc Agreed. I think Cynical Theories is much better by James Lindsey but not the prescriptions. The Mission of God by Joseph Boot is another option on cultural analysis.
No death panels looks like what just happened to Archie Battersbee in the UK, apparently. I would really love to know if Carl Trueman still stands by this book and how he has voted in recent years, though.
If you don't mind an off-topic comment/question, Jon, I like that field shirt. I'm finding them more and more difficult to find these days. Do you remember where you got it?
I am an unashamed conservative both theological and political. I love theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin and Fox News anchors Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson. God have mercy on me a sinner. I do like your views too Jon.
Joe McCarthy with his America's Retreat from Victory and Robert Taft, betraying his Skull and Bones pedigree, were brave politicians. Jesse Helms in the 70s and 80s. Ron Paul. There are a few.
While listening to you I was researching the PBS show called Closer to Truth, linked to the Templeton Foundation who hosts The Global Philosophy of Religion Project which is also supported by Jack Symes of the Panspycast podcast on philosophy and consciousness. Jack Symes is one of the people engaged in the UK (and of course the USA and rest of the commonwealth will be impacted) to Reform RE. Religious education will be called Worldviews. At the Global Philosophy Religion Project conference this year several religions presented their views on Death and Immortality but there was no representation from Christians as far as I can gather. The show Closer To Truth is produced by Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Illuminati handler of China’s leaders, including their "Chinese Dream". The Templeton Foundation was founded by a man who said he was a Christian, Presbyterian, but confused by the myriad of religions around him, unable to ascertain the difference between them and the true Word of God in Jesus Christ. Unable to discern that there can only be one truth. There cannot be more than one truth and to propose such is to go against all reason and logic. Also, they are teaching that there is nothing such as good or evil and that to love is to not judge and the only way we are gong to evolve is to change. Teaching us that we are able to control things with our minds because we are the universe and the universe is us. As I research all the figures involved and associated in this grand project to merge all religions, cultures and races into one population it is evident that Christians don't feature and when they do they appear to be apostates. It is almost as if Jesus Christ is irrelevant in this narrative of science, cosmology, quantum physics, consciousness. In fact, when He is mentioned He is put forth as either misunderstood or just another avatar for the galactic federation. Or else He and His followers are charged with creating a false worldview of evil vs good which produced fear and hatred. I think this big push is about the reset in order to obfuscate the facts and evidence that the fiction of darwinian evolution is now irrefutably destroyed. And to prevent the world from reverting to the understanding and philosophy of the Bible they are posing the kabbalistic New Age Humanist pagan death cults as the new fiction as a worldview. Yes, atheism is dead but no one is talking about it least of all the Christians. So sad.
Could it be that as an avowed Englishman married to a Scottish wife he disapproves of how politics are done in America and desires something closer to the British system? The guys over at Mere Fidelity, Mere Orthodoxy, and the Christian Humanist podcast network all want some variation of that.
Pluralism was really pushed in the 90's and 00's given the desire to keep Christian colleges accredited and nonpartisan. We now have a bunch of pastors and professors in leadership who were mentored in those decades. With so many people being trained in England, Scotland, and Canada, where Evangelicals are tiny minorities with no fangs logistically, evangelical leadership has not considered what it takes to minister to Americans as Americans without changing them into anything else.
I'd prefer you review Trueman's latest book next (Strange New World), before looking at the big tome (Rise and Triumph...), because many more of your listeners will do so themselves. The longer one is intimidatingly long - Strange New World was written to be a more broadly approachable treatment of exactly the same topics.
Maybe it would be more clear if Glen Beck had called it a "womb to tomb nanny state" ... And it sounds like another example of carefully-placed straw men to make their proposed way seem to be the reasonable, central one.
The more time goes on, i have less and less nice things to say about guys like this and timmy keller. I really have to try and look for what they DONT get wrong.
He's so short sighted but I also think that he's looking at America with a European lens... I had a friend who did her PA residency in the UK. When she came back she said 'I wouldn't want to get sick over there' but also said that people were (patients) so appreciative of whatever they got... however there were a ton of delays based on approvals- they do whatever they can to reduce waste which in one sense is good - but it also means that the dr doesn't always have the license to do what he needs to do - if its not imminently necessary. Also... my inlaws are from and live in Argentina - they are proud of their socialized healthcare because its 'free' (but terrible in my opinion). In Argentina there are the state hospitals and there are private hospitals. The private hospitals are for pay but are much nicer than the state ones. Incidentally they are also not as expensive as self pay here but I don't think the medical staff is paid as highly? Anyway - 2 experiences with free hospitals. One - on one trip we visited an uncle who had been in the ICU the night before. The hospital was bare bones - you just walked right in - it was old, there was mold growing on the ceiling - it did NOT smell and you could see people disinfecting the surfaces... however some surfaces were so old they were porous - how well can you disinfect a porous surface? Free healthcare does not come with hospital nurse aids or extra nurses to help with bathroom and meds - its on the family to hire someone to stay with the family member to help with bathroom meds and whatever else they need. If you have no money to hire out you do it yourself or the family member goes without. Often families take turns. They required anyone approaching his uncle to don a COMMUNAL SMOCK... just hanging on a hook in the room. I waited in the hall and observed... The hospital hadn't been updated since maybe... the 70s? They just don't have the money for that. It felt like a place you go to die - 2nd experience. My mother in law broke her leg a few years ago - her tibia - she had surgery and it was set with a metal rod - however the surgery failed and the rod - inside her leg separated from the bone and as a result... her leg is not straight. She has to walk with crutches. When she went for a consultation she was told that because of limited resources and the fact that it was not an emergency - she would need to either pay out of pocket to have it reset or be put on a waiting list. She's retired and that plays into it. With socialized healthcare they have a very limited amount of resources and they will prioritize you - if you are elderly you are not a priority - if its not an emergency you can wait. So then 2020 happened and elective surgeries were cancelled and so its been... like 3 years. She's 68 years old. What do you think this is doing to her quality of life. Yet she staunchly defends the healthcare - she's proud of it... So... perhaps has something to do with Trueman's short sightedness... I look at my MIL and think 'this has no logic' no... there isn't any logic to this thinking. I mean i guess its LOGIAL that with finite resources you will need to prioritize based on age and emergency... but its not logical to think this is GOOD care.
I drive tour bus/Motorcoach out of pa but we get up into NY all the time. Let me know if that’s something that could be of use to you. I can’t donate the bus but I will donate my hours as a driver. Let me know.
Jon Harris would about what the Word of ADONAI says.ADONAI perspective is the perspective that we should aspire for ♨️ 📖 🕊 🎯 🔥 Waffling is fatiguing 🙏 ✝️ 😉 🛐 🤲
So basically, Carl Trueman felt that the best visualization for his philosophy was an animorph? Nuff said. Good luck with your political alchemy, Carl. Another Carl (Jung) would be proud of you working to "join the opposites".
So Carl Trueman is more about numbers,not with wrestling with The SON YESHUA HAMA- SCHIACH about our inherent sinfulness that manifest daily.First JOHN One,verses 1-10 is left unfamiliar 📖 Individually we are trying to become innovative about work justification 🕯
A. D. Robles is a theonomist, a social activist. How is that better that a woke social justice warrior? Evangelicalism has forgotten the Gospel. They care more about the world than they do about Jesus Christ.
@@globescape4771 -- Those who think the Gospel is merely a get-out-of-hell-free card don't like any suggestion that the Christian Faith applies to all aspects of life.
The real question is, what is actually right??? If AD is legitimately committed to obeying all of God’s commands and living that out how’s that wrong?????? Differently said, if that makes him an activist, then maybe we need to ask or realize that it’s ok to do so. And we should even be bold enough to argue that doing what he’s doing is ok while being an activist for stuff like trueman and timmy keller argue for is bad or even evil. We really just need to be honest and discerning
Jon Harris, I’d like to push back a little on this one. Number one, Trueman may speak english, but that does not mean he fully understands American political culture. I have never heard Trueman advocate for Marxism, or utter a single sentence that could be taken as blatantly heretical or contrary to proper Reformed Christianity. Trueman is a respected historian/theologian who has taught courses at Master’s, and other respected institutions. With respect, I think your conservative values have become so thoroughly conflated with your Christian faith, that it is causing you to question a persons theological credibility, merely because they make comments that sound contrary to political and social Conservativism. I personally know many liberal Christians who have left their woke churches, for conservative reformed churches, after reading Trueman’s last book. I have not many any who have gone the other way. I think your issue with Trueman might be personal. In any case, I believe you are heading into serious spiritual trouble if you don’t learn to properly distinguish the Christian faith from secular politics. We are one in Christ, not one in the Republican/ Democratic/ Libertarian party.
I agree with you. It is difficult to maintain biblical fidelity while actually engaging cultural and political spheres, but Trueman has done a pretty good job. It is MUCH easier to tell ourselves that we are just being faithful to Scripture while actually giving ourselves over to the spirit of Enlightenment Liberalism, either of a left-wing or a right-wing variety. Mr. Harris, while thinking himself to be biblical, is actually pretty much just a right-wing liberal.
So would you say that Catholic Social Teaching, or say, European Conservatism, is inherently 'woke'? I feel like this is unnecessarily narrow a view and falls into the rut talking points of the old Christian Right fusionism. Being "woke" (with all the necessary implications) is anti-Biblical, but we shouldn't therefore assume that it is thus "Biblical" to be anti-woke. Justice for the poor, for e.g. is a trait common to both the Old Testament and to Marxism (from where it derived the idea), it's the baby-bathwater situation. It's also fallacious to suggest that Edmund Burke (as much as I love him) is simply the authentic representative of the Christian political tradition. The fact is that he was a Whig Liberal, by his own admission, and thus shaped as much _by_ the (English) Enlightenment as in reaction to it (French). The political/economic theory of the Protestant Reformers presented a much more complex matrix of loyalties and duties within their various spheres that to modern conservative Christians, might put them on edge.
Aimee Byrd isn't indicative of the OPC. I've tried to understand that situation and the best i can is thst she is incredibly bitter and has left the OPC The OPC isn't perfect but they aim to be biblically faithful. Comparing what Carl Truemen said to how my OPC pastor faithfully preaches there is a stark difference.
Hmmmmmm... I apologize, in a qualified way, for the tone of my previous comment and the tone in my reply to 'Fide Sed Cui Vide 702' below. That is, I apologize for the somewhat brash and accusatory tone, but not the content. It is hard to write a challenging comment, with clarity and strength on the one hand and with brevity (in hopes it might actually be read) on the other. So... I will try leaving it at that in this comment and then try to say a bit more in "reply" to myself. 🙂
Mr. Harris, I am inclined to believe that you actually say the things you say on this channel from a sincere heart. But obviously, that doesn't mean that you are seeing things biblically. I have noticed how, over and over again, you speak of the notion of a "third way" as being nothing more than a trick of the left. To be sure, it often IS trotted forth as such a trick. But that doesn't mean that the response for biblical Christians is to reject all notions of a 'third way' kingdom politic and throw their full weight behind the political right. I have yet to see you, Mr. Harris, engage the notion of a third way as a biblical possibility even if many of those who claim to be proponents of a third way turn out just to be leftists in unconvincing disguises. A truly biblical 'third way' is possible, though it is not some "Republocrat" nonsense, as if what's needed is some synthetic blending the good red and blue elements. The fact is, when Jesus tells Pilate that His kingdom is not of this realm, He is saying something that is cosmically significant about the holiness--the wholly OTHERness--of His kingdom over against ALL the kingdoms and political philosophies of this world. That includes modern Enlightenment Liberalism in both its left-wing AND right-wing manifestations. Both wings are on the same bird. A truly biblical 'third way' is entirely separate from that bird... and the Marxist bird and ALL the other birds! (They are all just the many faces of Babylon.) Mr. Harris, my advice would be to stop decrying the very concept of a "third way" as a leftist trick and start thinking about an actual, BIBLICAL third way. Or, if you find the phrase "third way" to be too loaded with progressive entanglements, fine. Forget the phrase. The question is: Can you actually conceive of Jesus and His kingdom as being so truly sovereign over and different from the systems of this world that right-wing 'conservatism' has little more right to think of itself as faithful to Him than the left does? Yep, the Democrat party has finally abandoned any pretense of wholesomeness and is now plunging off the cliffs of sanity like demon-possessed swine. And yes, many of the values still upheld by some Republicans are good things. But that does not mean biblical Christianity is to be seen as aligned with the right. I love Keller and have benefited greatly from his ministry--particularly some years ago. But I do recognize his and others' drifting away in progressive-like directions. It's a bummer. But again, that does not mean I equate right-wing-ism with Jesus. If you want to critique Keller--and Piper and Moore and Trueman and... and... and... and..., fine. Go ahead. I will probably agree with parts your critique. But if your only solution is to put on a (metaphorical, if not actual) MAGA hat, you are no more biblical than any of them... probably less. You and I would probably find large measures of agreement on abortion, sexuality and a host of other issues. But as long as you continue to believe that right-wing liberalism (which is what conservatism actually is) is the way to go, your political theology has more in common with that of David French than with the teaching of the NT apostles. Well, that's a lot to say here. If you've read it all, I certainly appreciate it. If you're interested in further discussion, I am glad to undertake it with you. In the meanwhile, if you're interested, here are a couple of pieces of my own work in this area: talmid1021.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/a-taxonomy-of-christian-political-stances/ talmid1021.wordpress.com/2021/01/31/the-historic-journey-to-enlightenment-liberalism/ Shalom bamMashiach! -- KC
@@kcstewart671 I very much appreciate your apology. When being critical, it is difficult not to be emotional about it as well and lead with that rather than reason. It is necessary to be clear, and emotive wording can help make things clear, but in this case your longer answer is much better. On my part, while I think I understand your approach, I think from the review of Trueman's writing his third way is not concerned with right or wrong as the biblical way would be, but rather using that as the fashion of a Marxist. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The reasons I say that are the moral reasoning he uses. He actually destroys the moral imperative "you shall not murder" by this synthesis: one can be a solid believer who can politically support those whose stated goals are godless. We are not speaking of Biden or Trump as people, and certainly not as sound believers, but as whom or what best conveys applied truth to civil morality. We all have the law of God written on our hearts but are much more successful in suppressing the truth in our culture by the removal of civil structures acting as they ought in upholding what is right and punishing the wicked. I'm sure your recognize Romans 13 here. Trueman is serving a political view which is voiding truth, making it emptier of what would soundly be loving our neighbor in a moral support of politicians who understand the fabric of the best secular society can be held together only with moral law as defined by God. I got to get back to work, but again, a pleasure to see you reigning in the horses to a better course of discussion.
@@craigchambers4183 Thanks, Craig. I appreciate that. My concern, of course, is that Mr. Harris has a big following, including some people I know personally. And many of those people (e.g., see the comments to this video) have a ridiculously simplistic view that tars and feathers good men as commies and heretics for failing to be right-wing barking dogs like them. The fact is, Trueman is flawed like the rest of us. He is also someone who maintains a warm, personal friendship with Rod Dreher and is in near total agreement with his book "Live Not By Lies." Writing him off as some kind of Marxist heretic--as Mr. Harris' fanbase is wont to do--is, frankly, libelous and insipid... and probably something that displeases our Lord.
@@kcstewart671 Well, I would not describe myself as a barking dog, but I am in the camp of appreciating Jonathan Harris himself, and very much his views on things; especially his ability to see the crux of issues and ask good questions, and also give good answers. My assessment of this particular podcast is ongoing, but as I wrote to you, well, to everyone I suppose in this comment section, I can appreciate his criticism of Trueman's actual statements, but I have no skin in this in regards to Trueman as a person or a believer, so I don't have a reaction in the same way as you. I did read your historical summary for your students; very clear albeit by necessity not a detailed account. I can only wish that students in our educational system would learn such things, even if the grand scheme is all they 'get,' but as it is, it seems like the High School graduates and now even College grads have zero information to base their understandings upon apart from some specialty or another. I took a half Masters in History, meaning of course the basic requirements of Historiography and research, as well as the beginnings of my 'specialty' in Greek and Roman States, of which I still know so little. I do, however, have the big picture in like manner of your paper.
Becareful with Webbon and Robles. They’re too much in line with Doug Wilson who holds to federal vision heresy. And they’re theonimists and have a very weak grasp of the law/gospel distinction. I’ve stopped listening to them.
@@janettelewis6681 I’d encourage you to read Jerry Bridge’s The Gospel for Real Life. Also listen to Jon’s interview of Mike Abendroth - it’s quite informative on this issue. While I appreciate the efforts these men have made on certain cultural issues and see them as godly, I’d rather hear them talk more about resting in the finished work of Christ rather than trying harder and doing more. However that is not likely to occur when you advocate theonomy. People need Christ - not more law. Only Christ can change a heart.
@Michael Ward I agree - it’s a bigger part of Webbon’s ministry than Robles’. However it seems to have become a more significant part of late and I’m concerned. Anything that eclipses Christ is too much. Press on!
@@alank.2245 I loved that interview with Mike Abendroth & Jon that happened in 2020. I remember looking up his church and listening to some of his sermons in June 2020 when I was so disillusioned with the path that my church and many others in our area were taking. His sermon called “We Have an Altar” out of Hebrews 13 really anchored my soul during that time. I haven’t heard Joel or AD saying the law itself will change hearts, but that it is God’s law that is the good standard that causes people to realize their need for the gospel. I forget the evangelists name at Living Waters, but I think he uses the law this way when he talks to people. What do you think about the way that evangelist (with the Australian accent and the dog) uses the law? How do people come to understand their need for repentance and the propitiation accomplished by Jesus on the cross if they don’t know God’s holy expectations? Is theonomy something more than this? What do you think about TGCs take on what wise Christians should think about marriage laws that they posted yesterday? Really trying to understand what the core issues are here what the disagreements are specifically about.
Carl Trueman has been an apologist for his pal woke Timmy Keller and his woke gospel coalition. Let's not forget.
That’s all we need to know. Christians need to get better at one factor discernment. It is not hard.
Jon you are and have been a gift from God to so many of His people, me and my husband being two. We left a woke SB church. Thanks
Sorry to hear you had to leave :/.
Thank you so much for providing viable suggestions/options where Christians can make donations.
Hope you keep doing this, it's very helpful!
I am SHOCKED! This is UNBELIEVABLE! Thanks for the show.
I am insulted by his lack of belief in "death panels". We have seen these playing out in Britain for nearly 10 years at least. A hospital board decides to end treatment, and most of the time, if not 100% of the time the board is upheld by the courts, and the person's life is terminated. Strangely enough, UT actually seems to be young people that are suffering the most.
In the mean time, his style of "caring for the least of these" has opened Great Britain to massive immigration which is driving up housing prices over the inflation rate, driving general crime rates and assaults up, and creating networks of pedophile offenders that are viewed as being nearly above the law. Lotus Eaters podcast discuss all of these things in detail, even if their humor and language is not Christian standard.
Book endorsed by Michael Horton. He is woke!!
Seriously? That's the insight you're sharing?
Yep.
Great and fair analysis, Jon! We appreciate your labor
I think "elitist liberal" is a perfect description of Mr. Trueman. Very fine response, Jon.
Trueman is a hypocrite.
He pastured an Orthodox Presbyterian Church locally in Ambler, Pa. He is a true complimrntarian and not at all a liberal. . .he is totally on point amd shows how when many Americans are talking about religion they really are thinking politically.. He us a very helpful corrective to Jingoism. None if his points were accidental, they were truly careful amd he is not, advocating for a civil religion. They book profoundly identifies that the soil was toiled for a personality cult like Trump as far back as 2010.
@@johntobey1558 Thrre is no 3rd way. There is only ONE WAY. Trump's policies support freedom of religion while Drmocrats and RINOs push tyranny and antichrist.
@@johntobey1558 Stop worshipping the OPC and Truman.
@@johntobey1558 Trueman is ambiguous every time he says anything. This is called dissemulation. The law of contradiction means that you must let your yes be yes and your no be no. No true Christian could vote for politicians who fund and push the baby murder industry and the LGBTQIA+ proselytization of America. That is true of both parties. Trump is not an Evangelical Christian. But neither is Carl Trueman. He is a lying Marcost and a socialist. True Christianity supports capitalism and the Protestant work ethic, not the welfare state and subsidized laziness and irresponsibility. The left subsidizes crime and anarchy. Read Romans 13.
Palin is right...especially now, with transplant hospitals saying if no jab, no transplant!!!
& surgery for older folks is definitely rationed, they have so many ways to weasel out of helping seniors; very quietly done. hospital or insurance...
Thank you Jon. This was very helpful and looks to be the start of a very helpful series!
I wish I could come to the men's retreat but it's too far for me. If you ever hold a conference in the southeast I would come. God bless you.
Someone relishing the writings of Karl Marx, but also "committed to the Reformation spirit of ...Luther and ...Calvin" sounds more like someone who is very confused... or at least out of touch with reality.
Jon, I happened upon your TH-cam channel just before this year’s SBC conference Andrew have been interested in many of these important conversations. This one in particular caught y attention because I am co-leading our church’s Colson Fellows cohort, and we will be reading Trueman’s new book, Strange New World, this year. Thanks for laying down a basic understanding of his thinking, at least 12 years ago. This will help me be more discerning concerning the content we will encounter.
Great analysis. I too have struggled with CT for years and his platforming of Aimee Byrd. You’ll definitely ruffle feathers with this one.
Please review Roger E Olson’s how to be Evangelical without being Conservative published by Zondervan in 2008. I know he’s not reformed but he certainly brought the Arminian wing of evangelicalism to think more progressively with this book. This was one of the first books that I remember making the case that one can be Evangelical and progressive simultaneously.
I am subscribed to his blog at Patheos. He is getting worse both biblically and politically.
Interesting
This was a great podcast! Thanks Jon.
Jon, I haven’t listened to the whole podcast yet, but I have an idea for something you could do to extend the time after the retreat. This idea comes from the EFree pastor you just interviewed. He asked the excellent question, where are all these conservative southern Baptists going? Is there an association that’s being formed for people who are fleeing all the Wokeness?
I think this question deserves to be at least brainstormed. And it’s high time! We who believe the Bible need the fellowship and direction in fulfilling God’s command to assemble with other believers. we need to hear and sound God’s Clarion call, “let my people go that they may worship Me!”
We need to be like the Separatists of old.
There is such a dearth of sound, trustworthy churches. A reformation needs to include this: a re-formation of the church!
So a brainstorm session?
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast yes! Figuring you’ll have a lot of good minds there and most importantly men who will pray and seek God for a plan for the church Christ died for. The sheep are confused and starving out there! We desperately need sound churches. The void left by these gone-woke churches is immense.
I’d way rather meet in a field than in a heretical church.
Thanks again Jon for the work you do to help Christ’s precious body. So appreciate all the time and sacrifice. Soli Deo Gloria!!!
I'll take the field too! We left our SBC church only to find a moderately better one. The new pastor spoke out against BLM, yet voted for Ed Litton (more out of ignorance) and said that Christians should not be about a donkey or an elephant, but about a lamb.
Our island of Penang, Malaysia is a medical tourist island. People from other countries come for surgical and medical care because they can get high quality medical care and pay cash for it. I only paid $250 for an MRI and an orthopedist for my back. It can be done and I got excellent care.
Ha! l guess its about at 24 minutes when you talk about abortion being a wedge issue and how it alienates 'serious people and intelligent conversation'. l think about that ''professing to be wise they became fools'' passage. These people think too hard.
Wait, this guy "relishes" the writings of the Christ-hating, demon influenced (maybe possessed) Karl Marx?! I have Trueman's other book, " The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self", but I've been buried under books and haven't gotten to it yet. Now I'm wondering if I even want to!
He critiques Marx, but is more gentle than I’d be.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Wow.
Rise and Triumph provides significant historical insight into the current rise of “self identity”. It’s not proscriptive but descriptive if you want to understand the current trans craze.
@@dmaddc Agreed. I think Cynical Theories is much better by James Lindsey but not the prescriptions. The Mission of God by Joseph Boot is another option on cultural analysis.
No death panels looks like what just happened to Archie Battersbee in the UK, apparently. I would really love to know if Carl Trueman still stands by this book and how he has voted in recent years, though.
Speculator, NY - that's where I spent my summers growing up - a cabin on Piseco Lake right next to Lake Pleasant. Wonderful memories - dress warm!
Jon Harris you hit it out the 🏟 on this one ⚾️
So glad you took the time to read the book and expose this garbage. Very helpful
Excellent analysis Jon, Thank you!
Great work 👍
Thanks John. This is all very helpful.
If you don't mind an off-topic comment/question, Jon, I like that field shirt. I'm finding them more and more difficult to find these days. Do you remember where you got it?
I am an unashamed conservative both theological and political. I love theologians like Martin Luther and John Calvin and Fox News anchors Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson. God have mercy on me a sinner. I do like your views too Jon.
It’s like the whole country is run by an HOA.
Obama repeatedly referred to “fending for ourselves.” to defend government controlled healthcare.
How do I sign up for the men's retreat? The sign up genius link lead to an error page
I pick up nothing about JOHN 13 - 17 in Carl
Truman spiel 📖 He has that in common with
Glenn Beck 🤔 🙄
Joe McCarthy with his America's Retreat from Victory and Robert Taft, betraying his Skull and Bones pedigree, were brave politicians. Jesse Helms in the 70s and 80s. Ron Paul. There are a few.
Sorry, Trueman has lost his way with this tripe.
The Three of Us ~ xD Yep!
While listening to you I was researching the PBS show called Closer to Truth, linked to the Templeton Foundation who hosts The Global Philosophy of Religion Project which is also supported by Jack Symes of the Panspycast podcast on philosophy and consciousness. Jack Symes is one of the people engaged in the UK (and of course the USA and rest of the commonwealth will be impacted) to Reform RE. Religious education will be called Worldviews.
At the Global Philosophy Religion Project conference this year several religions presented their views on Death and Immortality but there was no representation from Christians as far as I can gather. The show Closer To Truth is produced by Robert Lawrence Kuhn, Illuminati handler of China’s leaders, including their "Chinese Dream".
The Templeton Foundation was founded by a man who said he was a Christian, Presbyterian, but confused by the myriad of religions around him, unable to ascertain the difference between them and the true Word of God in Jesus Christ. Unable to discern that there can only be one truth. There cannot be more than one truth and to propose such is to go against all reason and logic.
Also, they are teaching that there is nothing such as good or evil and that to love is to not judge and the only way we are gong to evolve is to change. Teaching us that we are able to control things with our minds because we are the universe and the universe is us.
As I research all the figures involved and associated in this grand project to merge all religions, cultures and races into one population it is evident that Christians don't feature and when they do they appear to be apostates.
It is almost as if Jesus Christ is irrelevant in this narrative of science, cosmology, quantum physics, consciousness. In fact, when He is mentioned He is put forth as either misunderstood or just another avatar for the galactic federation. Or else He and His followers are charged with creating a false worldview of evil vs good which produced fear and hatred.
I think this big push is about the reset in order to obfuscate the facts and evidence that the fiction of darwinian evolution is now irrefutably destroyed. And to prevent the world from reverting to the understanding and philosophy of the Bible they are posing the kabbalistic New Age Humanist pagan death cults as the new fiction as a worldview. Yes, atheism is dead but no one is talking about it least of all the Christians. So sad.
This guy is completely at odds with Grove City's economics department.
Could it be that as an avowed Englishman married to a Scottish wife he disapproves of how politics are done in America and desires something closer to the British system? The guys over at Mere Fidelity, Mere Orthodoxy, and the Christian Humanist podcast network all want some variation of that.
Peter Lillback observation reeks with name dropping 😏 Which is nothing more than In-
tellectual Shenanigans 🗣 👥 👤
Pluralism was really pushed in the 90's and 00's given the desire to keep Christian colleges accredited and nonpartisan. We now have a bunch of pastors and professors in leadership who were mentored in those decades. With so many people being trained in England, Scotland, and Canada, where Evangelicals are tiny minorities with no fangs logistically, evangelical leadership has not considered what it takes to minister to Americans as Americans without changing them into anything else.
I'd prefer you review Trueman's latest book next (Strange New World), before looking at the big tome (Rise and Triumph...), because many more of your listeners will do so themselves. The longer one is intimidatingly long - Strange New World was written to be a more broadly approachable treatment of exactly the same topics.
I would say Carl Trueman is out of touch with the
PARACLETE 🕊
Jesus came to bring a sword. Whoever makes themselves a friend of the world becomes and enemy of God. Wow to you when the world speaks well of you.
Maybe it would be more clear if Glen Beck had called it a "womb to tomb nanny state"
... And it sounds like another example of carefully-placed straw men to make their proposed way seem to be the reasonable, central one.
ABSOLUTE GOLD THANK YOU STAY AWAY FROM TRUEMAN AMEN
Sounds like Trueman has learned a lot from Georg Hegel, doesn’t it? If you don’t know who that is, look up the Hegelian dialectic.
The more time goes on, i have less and less nice things to say about guys like this and timmy keller. I really have to try and look for what they DONT get wrong.
He's so short sighted but I also think that he's looking at America with a European lens... I had a friend who did her PA residency in the UK. When she came back she said 'I wouldn't want to get sick over there' but also said that people were (patients) so appreciative of whatever they got... however there were a ton of delays based on approvals- they do whatever they can to reduce waste which in one sense is good - but it also means that the dr doesn't always have the license to do what he needs to do - if its not imminently necessary.
Also... my inlaws are from and live in Argentina - they are proud of their socialized healthcare because its 'free' (but terrible in my opinion). In Argentina there are the state hospitals and there are private hospitals. The private hospitals are for pay but are much nicer than the state ones. Incidentally they are also not as expensive as self pay here but I don't think the medical staff is paid as highly?
Anyway - 2 experiences with free hospitals.
One - on one trip we visited an uncle who had been in the ICU the night before. The hospital was bare bones - you just walked right in - it was old, there was mold growing on the ceiling - it did NOT smell and you could see people disinfecting the surfaces... however some surfaces were so old they were porous - how well can you disinfect a porous surface?
Free healthcare does not come with hospital nurse aids or extra nurses to help with bathroom and meds - its on the family to hire someone to stay with the family member to help with bathroom meds and whatever else they need. If you have no money to hire out you do it yourself or the family member goes without. Often families take turns.
They required anyone approaching his uncle to don a COMMUNAL SMOCK... just hanging on a hook in the room. I waited in the hall and observed... The hospital hadn't been updated since maybe... the 70s? They just don't have the money for that. It felt like a place you go to die -
2nd experience. My mother in law broke her leg a few years ago - her tibia - she had surgery and it was set with a metal rod - however the surgery failed and the rod - inside her leg separated from the bone and as a result... her leg is not straight. She has to walk with crutches. When she went for a consultation she was told that because of limited resources and the fact that it was not an emergency - she would need to either pay out of pocket to have it reset or be put on a waiting list.
She's retired and that plays into it. With socialized healthcare they have a very limited amount of resources and they will prioritize you - if you are elderly you are not a priority - if its not an emergency you can wait.
So then 2020 happened and elective surgeries were cancelled and so its been... like 3 years. She's 68 years old. What do you think this is doing to her quality of life.
Yet she staunchly defends the healthcare - she's proud of it...
So... perhaps has something to do with Trueman's short sightedness... I look at my MIL and think 'this has no logic' no... there isn't any logic to this thinking. I mean i guess its LOGIAL that with finite resources you will need to prioritize based on age and emergency... but its not logical to think this is GOOD care.
Basically asking for cease fire
I would say that Apologia, Cross Politic, and Free the States call people out, right?
First way: wolves. Second way: sheep. Third way: Wolves in sheep’s clothing.
From whence cometh thy help?
Thy help cometh from the Lord.
...and for the record, Marx was a BUM!
I drive tour bus/Motorcoach out of pa but we get up into NY all the time. Let me know if that’s something that could be of use to you. I can’t donate the bus but I will donate my hours as a driver. Let me know.
Jon Harris would about what the Word of ADONAI
says.ADONAI perspective is the perspective that we should aspire for ♨️ 📖 🕊 🎯 🔥 Waffling is fatiguing 🙏 ✝️ 😉 🛐 🤲
Jon, should you really be doing business with Amazon?
Kevin DeYoung was being winsome.You know
what A. D. Robles says about being winsome 🤭
Leon Pope ~ l dont like that word!
So basically, Carl Trueman felt that the best visualization for his philosophy was an animorph? Nuff said. Good luck with your political alchemy, Carl. Another Carl (Jung) would be proud of you working to "join the opposites".
Trueman's massive lack of discernment in these particular areas makes me think he couldn't discern the true Gospel from a false gospel either.
Great analysis and review. I think that underlying environmentalism and all the weird sexual stuff that’s going on there is a goal of depopulation.
So Carl Trueman is more about numbers,not
with wrestling with The SON YESHUA HAMA-
SCHIACH about our inherent sinfulness that
manifest daily.First JOHN One,verses 1-10 is
left unfamiliar 📖 Individually we are trying to
become innovative about work justification 🕯
A. D. Robles is a theonomist, a social activist. How is that better that a woke social justice warrior? Evangelicalism has forgotten the Gospel. They care more about the world than they do about Jesus Christ.
Genuine question. What are the problems with theonomy?
@@globescape4771 -- Those who think the Gospel is merely a get-out-of-hell-free card don't like any suggestion that the Christian Faith applies to all aspects of life.
The real question is, what is actually right??? If AD is legitimately committed to obeying all of God’s commands and living that out how’s that wrong?????? Differently said, if that makes him an activist, then maybe we need to ask or realize that it’s ok to do so. And we should even be bold enough to argue that doing what he’s doing is ok while being an activist for stuff like trueman and timmy keller argue for is bad or even evil. We really just need to be honest and discerning
Jon Harris,
I’d like to push back a little on this one. Number one, Trueman may speak english, but that does not mean he fully understands American political culture.
I have never heard Trueman advocate for Marxism, or utter a single sentence that could be taken as blatantly heretical or contrary to proper Reformed Christianity. Trueman is a respected historian/theologian who has taught courses at Master’s, and other respected institutions.
With respect, I think your conservative values have become so thoroughly conflated with your Christian faith, that it is causing you to question a persons theological credibility, merely because they make comments that sound contrary to political and social Conservativism.
I personally know many liberal Christians who have left their woke churches, for conservative reformed churches, after reading Trueman’s last book. I have not many any who have gone the other way. I think your issue with Trueman might be personal. In any case, I believe you are heading into serious spiritual trouble if you don’t learn to properly distinguish the Christian faith from secular politics. We are one in Christ, not one in the Republican/ Democratic/ Libertarian party.
Appreciate the response. Did you watch or listen to the whole podcast by any chance?
I agree with you.
It is difficult to maintain biblical fidelity while actually engaging cultural and political spheres, but Trueman has done a pretty good job. It is MUCH easier to tell ourselves that we are just being faithful to Scripture while actually giving ourselves over to the spirit of Enlightenment Liberalism, either of a left-wing or a right-wing variety. Mr. Harris, while thinking himself to be biblical, is actually pretty much just a right-wing liberal.
Put AD Robles to work at that retreat. Don't let him relax.😆
what's up with fidel castro shirt and the looks??
It’s actually a shirt from Boer Wear in South Africa.
@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast oh nice!!!
That is hilarious!
So would you say that Catholic Social Teaching, or say, European Conservatism, is inherently 'woke'?
I feel like this is unnecessarily narrow a view and falls into the rut talking points of the old Christian Right fusionism. Being "woke" (with all the necessary implications) is anti-Biblical, but we shouldn't therefore assume that it is thus "Biblical" to be anti-woke. Justice for the poor, for e.g. is a trait common to both the Old Testament and to Marxism (from where it derived the idea), it's the baby-bathwater situation.
It's also fallacious to suggest that Edmund Burke (as much as I love him) is simply the authentic representative of the Christian political tradition. The fact is that he was a Whig Liberal, by his own admission, and thus shaped as much _by_ the (English) Enlightenment as in reaction to it (French). The political/economic theory of the Protestant Reformers presented a much more complex matrix of loyalties and duties within their various spheres that to modern conservative Christians, might put them on edge.
Michael Byrd??😳 OPC (as in Aimee bird?) enough said👎🏻
Aimee Byrd isn't indicative of the OPC. I've tried to understand that situation and the best i can is thst she is incredibly bitter and has left the OPC The OPC isn't perfect but they aim to be biblically faithful. Comparing what Carl Truemen said to how my OPC pastor faithfully preaches there is a stark difference.
Hmmmmmm... I apologize, in a qualified way, for the tone of my previous comment and the tone in my reply to 'Fide Sed Cui Vide 702' below. That is, I apologize for the somewhat brash and accusatory tone, but not the content. It is hard to write a challenging comment, with clarity and strength on the one hand and with brevity (in hopes it might actually be read) on the other.
So... I will try leaving it at that in this comment and then try to say a bit more in "reply" to myself. 🙂
Mr. Harris, I am inclined to believe that you actually say the things you say on this channel from a sincere heart. But obviously, that doesn't mean that you are seeing things biblically.
I have noticed how, over and over again, you speak of the notion of a "third way" as being nothing more than a trick of the left. To be sure, it often IS trotted forth as such a trick. But that doesn't mean that the response for biblical Christians is to reject all notions of a 'third way' kingdom politic and throw their full weight behind the political right. I have yet to see you, Mr. Harris, engage the notion of a third way as a biblical possibility even if many of those who claim to be proponents of a third way turn out just to be leftists in unconvincing disguises. A truly biblical 'third way' is possible, though it is not some "Republocrat" nonsense, as if what's needed is some synthetic blending the good red and blue elements.
The fact is, when Jesus tells Pilate that His kingdom is not of this realm, He is saying something that is cosmically significant about the holiness--the wholly OTHERness--of His kingdom over against ALL the kingdoms and political philosophies of this world. That includes modern Enlightenment Liberalism in both its left-wing AND right-wing manifestations. Both wings are on the same bird. A truly biblical 'third way' is entirely separate from that bird... and the Marxist bird and ALL the other birds! (They are all just the many faces of Babylon.)
Mr. Harris, my advice would be to stop decrying the very concept of a "third way" as a leftist trick and start thinking about an actual, BIBLICAL third way. Or, if you find the phrase "third way" to be too loaded with progressive entanglements, fine. Forget the phrase. The question is: Can you actually conceive of Jesus and His kingdom as being so truly sovereign over and different from the systems of this world that right-wing 'conservatism' has little more right to think of itself as faithful to Him than the left does?
Yep, the Democrat party has finally abandoned any pretense of wholesomeness and is now plunging off the cliffs of sanity like demon-possessed swine. And yes, many of the values still upheld by some Republicans are good things. But that does not mean biblical Christianity is to be seen as aligned with the right.
I love Keller and have benefited greatly from his ministry--particularly some years ago. But I do recognize his and others' drifting away in progressive-like directions. It's a bummer. But again, that does not mean I equate right-wing-ism with Jesus. If you want to critique Keller--and Piper and Moore and Trueman and... and... and... and..., fine. Go ahead. I will probably agree with parts your critique. But if your only solution is to put on a (metaphorical, if not actual) MAGA hat, you are no more biblical than any of them... probably less.
You and I would probably find large measures of agreement on abortion, sexuality and a host of other issues. But as long as you continue to believe that right-wing liberalism (which is what conservatism actually is) is the way to go, your political theology has more in common with that of David French than with the teaching of the NT apostles.
Well, that's a lot to say here. If you've read it all, I certainly appreciate it. If you're interested in further discussion, I am glad to undertake it with you.
In the meanwhile, if you're interested, here are a couple of pieces of my own work in this area:
talmid1021.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/a-taxonomy-of-christian-political-stances/
talmid1021.wordpress.com/2021/01/31/the-historic-journey-to-enlightenment-liberalism/
Shalom bamMashiach!
-- KC
@@kcstewart671 I very much appreciate your apology. When being critical, it is difficult not to be emotional about it as well and lead with that rather than reason. It is necessary to be clear, and emotive wording can help make things clear, but in this case your longer answer is much better. On my part, while I think I understand your approach, I think from the review of Trueman's writing his third way is not concerned with right or wrong as the biblical way would be, but rather using that as the fashion of a Marxist. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The reasons I say that are the moral reasoning he uses. He actually destroys the moral imperative "you shall not murder" by this synthesis: one can be a solid believer who can politically support those whose stated goals are godless. We are not speaking of Biden or Trump as people, and certainly not as sound believers, but as whom or what best conveys applied truth to civil morality. We all have the law of God written on our hearts but are much more successful in suppressing the truth in our culture by the removal of civil structures acting as they ought in upholding what is right and punishing the wicked. I'm sure your recognize Romans 13 here. Trueman is serving a political view which is voiding truth, making it emptier of what would soundly be loving our neighbor in a moral support of politicians who understand the fabric of the best secular society can be held together only with moral law as defined by God. I got to get back to work, but again, a pleasure to see you reigning in the horses to a better course of discussion.
@@craigchambers4183 Thanks, Craig. I appreciate that.
My concern, of course, is that Mr. Harris has a big following, including some people I know personally. And many of those people (e.g., see the comments to this video) have a ridiculously simplistic view that tars and feathers good men as commies and heretics for failing to be right-wing barking dogs like them.
The fact is, Trueman is flawed like the rest of us. He is also someone who maintains a warm, personal friendship with Rod Dreher and is in near total agreement with his book "Live Not By Lies." Writing him off as some kind of Marxist heretic--as Mr. Harris' fanbase is wont to do--is, frankly, libelous and insipid... and probably something that displeases our Lord.
@@kcstewart671 Well, I would not describe myself as a barking dog, but I am in the camp of appreciating Jonathan Harris himself, and very much his views on things; especially his ability to see the crux of issues and ask good questions, and also give good answers. My assessment of this particular podcast is ongoing, but as I wrote to you, well, to everyone I suppose in this comment section, I can appreciate his criticism of Trueman's actual statements, but I have no skin in this in regards to Trueman as a person or a believer, so I don't have a reaction in the same way as you.
I did read your historical summary for your students; very clear albeit by necessity not a detailed account. I can only wish that students in our educational system would learn such things, even if the grand scheme is all they 'get,' but as it is, it seems like the High School graduates and now even College grads have zero information to base their understandings upon apart from some specialty or another. I took a half Masters in History, meaning of course the basic requirements of Historiography and research, as well as the beginnings of my 'specialty' in Greek and Roman States, of which I still know so little. I do, however, have the big picture in like manner of your paper.
@@craigchambers4183 Wow. I am honored, brother. Thank you.
And may YHWH bless you and keep you!
Thanks for reviewing this book so I don't have to waste my time reading it.
Mr. Harris, do you ever find yourself getting weary from the burden of constant right-wing axe-grinding under the guise of supposed biblical fidelity?
Thanks for letting everyone know you’re a leftist
Becareful with Webbon and Robles. They’re too much in line with Doug Wilson who holds to federal vision heresy. And they’re theonimists and have a very weak grasp of the law/gospel distinction. I’ve stopped listening to them.
You’re spreading slander. Have you listened to Doug recently on federal vision? Not from years & years ago?
Could you describe how their law/gospel distinction is incorrect and explain what a better understanding of it looks like?
@@janettelewis6681 I’d encourage you to read Jerry Bridge’s The Gospel for Real Life. Also listen to Jon’s interview of Mike Abendroth - it’s quite informative on this issue. While I appreciate the efforts these men have made on certain cultural issues and see them as godly, I’d rather hear them talk more about resting in the finished work of Christ rather than trying harder and doing more. However that is not likely to occur when you advocate theonomy. People need Christ - not more law. Only Christ can change a heart.
@Michael Ward I agree - it’s a bigger part of Webbon’s ministry than Robles’. However it seems to have become a more significant part of late and I’m concerned. Anything that eclipses Christ is too much. Press on!
@@alank.2245 I loved that interview with Mike Abendroth & Jon that happened in 2020. I remember looking up his church and listening to some of his sermons in June 2020 when I was so disillusioned with the path that my church and many others in our area were taking. His sermon called “We Have an Altar” out of Hebrews 13 really anchored my soul during that time. I haven’t heard Joel or AD saying the law itself will change hearts, but that it is God’s law that is the good standard that causes people to realize their need for the gospel. I forget the evangelists name at Living Waters, but I think he uses the law this way when he talks to people. What do you think about the way that evangelist (with the Australian accent and the dog) uses the law? How do people come to understand their need for repentance and the propitiation accomplished by Jesus on the cross if they don’t know God’s holy expectations? Is theonomy something more than this? What do you think about TGCs take on what wise Christians should think about marriage laws that they posted yesterday? Really trying to understand what the core issues are here what the disagreements are specifically about.