Coming from someone who has been playing EDH for years 36 lands is standard. If you're running a good amount of mana rocks/dorks it's 34 lands. If you need more than that your curve is too high or you don't have enough non land mana sources. 38 or 40 is just begging for mana flooding. 50% of your deck being mana sources is ludicrous.
I just found this video a year late, but wanted to reply. I agree with most of what you wrote, but having 50% of your deck related to mana doesn't have to mean just lands and signets. I play mono black and use cards like Gauntlet, Caged Sun, Crypt Ghast, Nirkana Revenant, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Solemn Simulacrum, expedition Map and so forth which all easily take my deck intothat 50% range. There are other examples, like blue based artifact decks like Breya whic use the various Vedalkin Articifer creatures, or green decks which want land ramp like Cultivate and exploding veggies. It depends on how fast your meta is. Despite all the talk online not many people actually play cEDH. Far more people play games that got beyond turn 8 instead of ending on 4 or 5.
I know it's a comment from over a year ago but I'm curious in that case how you build your decks. Asking since between land search, aignets and with a base of about 36 cards... 50% of your deck providing some kind of mana boost makes perfect sense. It's not like they said 50 lands, just 50% having to do with mana-acceleration.
if you play cEDH or yoir deck is low curved, the you are right. but 34 plus mabe 12 rocks is begging for manascrew, my best dude does this all the time and keeps 2lander openings xD
@@Shikogo we play pretty low power to. can i make a recommendation? try 38 lands, three of them fetchlands (the common ones like terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds, if you dont want to spend a wealth on the OG ones) that reduces your lands that effectively make mana to 35. its not that big of a stretch and i have very good results with that.
I've had this very same conversation with my kitchen table playgroup. It's just not fun playing against someone who is mana screwed. you feel bad for them, avoid interactions with them in order to allow them to catch up.. but at the end of the day when they sit there with 2 lands on turn 4 and draw/pass... they just aren't playing magic. it's finally sticking with a couple of them though!
You should never be in this situation without being the target of land destruction. A good rule is too never play a hand with less than three lands. Just mulligan.
Agreed, it's no fun playing stax when the opponent misses their land drop. Knowing that their misery is largely caused by them not drawing any lands rather than your stax effects gotta be the most miserable feeling ever.
Honestly, a lot of my decks run about 34-36, and run off of mana rocks, 38 is too many unless you aren't playing many forms of mana acceleration, or ar playing a lands matter deck
In summary: 1. Play enough lands and ramp. 2. Play enough answers. 3. Play enough card draw. Seems reasonable! I like to stick to those rules too! I do however change up my numbers: 37 lands, 7 ramp, 7 answers, 7 card draw. If I go over, that's fine too, but those are my absolute minimums.
I definitely disagree with you on this one, Seth. Need for excessive card advantage (#3) is directly caused by playing too much support cards and lands (#1). If less than half of my deck contains real gas, no wonder I need to Stroke myself a few times to get to those juicy bits. There's nothing wrong with playing straight from the top if 65% of your cards have the ability to affect the board state in a significant way. You're right about interaction though! I hate it when green players don't run any enchantment or artifact removal. I mean, come on, I was counting on you to get rid of that Winter Orb!
Thanks a bunch! I usually have trouble finding the right balance of interactions and 'theme' cards, and I can't wait to go back and look at my decks with these tips in mind!
Awesome stuff Seth! I'd love to see more videos like this! I have to say, the one mistake I say people make the most often is the mana one. I rarely, if ever, go below 40 lands and 10 other mana sources, and I'm happy with that as I basically never get manascrewed. It's so much more fun actually getting to play your cards.
Great to see a commander focused Brewer's Minute! I've heard a good way to think about lands/ramp is every 2 ramp cards = 1 land effectively. Rampant Growth + Darksteel Ingot = 1 land etc... I've also noticed people in general play way to little interaction, and card draw.
Great advice especially for newer players in edh. Answers are important especially depending on your play group. My group has alot of blue or green based combo decks so cards like krosan grip are essential in our meta. alot of new players forget to play answers.
I have a mono blue high tide edh deck with 29 islands. It works because a quarter of the deck is artifact ramp, another quarter is cantrips to hit your land drops, and the rest are interaction and combo pieces. The low land count is because when the deck is going off, you do not want to wheel into land heavy hands.
This is good enough basic guide. I usually build with about 35-38 lands and about 6-10 mana ramp and it works out fine, but that's just my style. The thing I think it's important to say about this is that is very important for any deck is to know how to optimize all this categories (which are indeed very important) so that each card you play has the most specific, optimal and synergistic function within the deck. Examples of this can be any one mana ramp for any three mana commander that wants to enter the battlefield turn two; phyrexian arena or rhystic study, both of which will end up providing the greatest amount of crard draw three mana can buy; or act of authority in Brago. Another important point is the versatility of a card. If a card enters into more than one category of your deck you can get away with counting it for both so you can play more cards. A good examples of this are mind stone and solemn, which are not great ramp or card advantage by themselves, but the fact that they give you both card draw and mana ramp makes them much better. Another card I want to mention for this category is the new card Spring to Mind. This card is in no ones radar, but I believe it will easily become a G/U staple if given the chance
i think a good general rule for lands and mana ramp is that you want between 45-50 sources of mana in any given commander deck so if your very heavy on mana rocks or cultivate type effects its usually fine to go down to 35-36 lands. but for the most part I've found playing 37-38 lands and 8-12 rocks to be the sweet spot.
I usually start at 40 lands and remove 1 land for every two ramp spells / rocks, then add one land for each colour in the deck beyond the first. Here's an example of a 3 colour deck with 10 ramp/rocks: 40 lands - 1/2 of mana rocks/ramp = 35 + 1 for every colour in the deck beyond the first = 37. I may add more if my CMC is high, or remove more if I have a tonne of card draw, but that is my general rule, and it has worked well for me.
The theme role you have can sometimes work both ways. I remember watching a commander match where somebody was using blood tyrant wishes it card that benefits from discarding cards from your deck into the graveyard and yet he didn't have a single card in his deck that actually helped that mechanic.
Then I think you'd have to find bad "good stuff." I think you could still play removal, wraths and card draw, just the worst options, which would probably actually strengthen the theme.
Although some strong Build around me commanders like Mishra and Zur can be weak when not building around them, I'd rather avoid them, because they don't give that bad or mediocre feel until people realize they are not actually built around. Grixis is fine colour identity though for mediocre stuff and I would play Gwendlyn Di Corci as a commander. For the bad stuff there is two options, either go for Haakon and play as much bad stuff as you can with the worst commander or play Cromat to get access to all the bad stuff through the history of magic. I prefer Cromat, because other colours offer so much more bad stuff for example Battle of Wits.
You should also encourage the rest of your group to follow these tips. Can't count how many times I answer the threat on the table because nobody else can be bothered to run removal. Makes the games more fun.
I put in more ramp than most so I tend to go 35-37 lands on average. I have always tried to keep my average mana curve around 4 or 5. I found that when I had 38-40 lands I just started top decking more lands late in the game when you need gas. Aside from including more draw card stuff I decided to replace the lands I was removing for ramp spells to take lands out of my deck. I tend to also mulligan more to make sure I have at least 3 lands starting where I see a lot of people keeping 1 or 2 land hands.
Commander 40 lands may be the equivalent of 60 card 24 lands, but it's important to note that 35 lands in a commander deck is equivalent to 21 lands in a 60 card deck. Depending on tuning, mana rocks and ramp as well as the overall CMC of the deck and card advantage, 35 lands may be just right in your deck. (though that tends to be one lean in lots of cases) It's also important to note that lots of really dense mana lands are available in commander, from the Karoo lands to Cabal Coffers and Gaia's cradle. All of which represent a single card that has higher mana density than average lands.
Hey Seth, I was wondering if playing a lot of harrow-like spells (including 1cmc spells like collective voyage) in a Tatyova deck could count has an exception to the ''have enough land principle''. I mean, I know that that could mess with the number of lands you'll get in the opening hand, but still.
I think that having a lot of ramp spells helps. You have to make sure you have enough lands to cast them, but if you've got a bunch of ramp you can cut back on lands a bit.
For my Sliver Commander, I have like 38 lands, 3 ways to make my creatures tap for Mana, and 2 ways for my lands to tap for any color Mana. My extra section is where the fun is! ;)
Hi I want to combine jeleva's deck( commander 2013) with seize control ( commander 2015) How do you think should I do this? ( I will add the black color to seize control) and are there any specific cards I should get in the deck? ( I bought jace unraveler of secrets as a planeswalker) Tnx for your answers!
Just some steps you can take to start your process if Seth can't get to you: 1.) See what you have. The two decks you have (I'm assuming you have both) are very focused on casting instants and sorceries, however, they do them in two very different ways. I'm sure you know this, but Mind Seize is all about casting very large spells for free with Jeleva, while Seize Control is about ramping up your experience counters to cast a lot of things for free, or utilize the X cost for a lot of value. You can't really do both unfortunately (it would be difficult as your attention would be split), so you'll have to decide how to mix the two. 2.) Decide what type of deck you want to play and which commander you want to run (Spell slinger/control/tokens/etc) There are a lot of very good cards in both decks, but it seems like Mind Seize isn't very focused in what it wants to do right out of the box. Take the inclusion of Nekusar, the Mindrazer for example: he's a very focused commander by himself, but he doesn't really work with Jeleva. If you used him as your commander, you could mix both decks to great effect. Take the multiple ways that Seize Control has to make everyone draw cards (Jace's Archivist, Windfall, Dragon Mage), and mix it with Nekusar and the controlling cards included in Mind Seize. Other inclusions from Seize Control would be Psychosis Crawler, Talrand, Mystic Retrieval, Right of Replication, as well as spells that help you draw cards and control the board. Include ways to protect yourself like Baleful Strix, Propaganda, and Aetherize. This could be a really fun deck - you draw cards, deal damage to everyone, and can protect yourself fairly well. It may be annoying for other people (Nekusar can be that way), but that's not what we're worried about here. 3) Follow good deck building principles. I know this is silly to mention, but I'm guessing you don't want to buy a lot of new cards (I'm the same way, budget all the way). So, whatever direction you decide to go in, try and make sure that you have a good mana curve, cut down on the super high cmc cards, focus your deck idea, make sure you include enough mana (just as Seth said), make sure you have counters and removal for other people's game plans (you're playing blue most likely, take the hit and buy some of the over performing and relatively cheap spells and counters: Swan Song, Arcane Denial, Memory Lapse, Disallow if you want, and Cyclonic Rift; also make space for Vandalblast even though it's not super exciting), and try your best to find cheap includes to follow your game plan (Fevered Visions would be great with Nekusar). With these two decks, you have a lot of powerful cards, but they don't all just fit together. I'm sure you'll be able to find a good mix for the two of them, and maybe even a couple different ways! I would suggest trying to see how well Nekusar would work for you - I think it could be super fun and you won't have to buy much. Whatever you decide to do, as long as you play sufficient ways of drawing cards, getting mana, and interacting with your opponents, I think you'll come up with a fun and interesting deck. Best of luck in your deck making process!
it massively depends on what you are playing. do you play a color thats good at ramp or complety off-ramp. do i play green or not? do i need rock? my mono green deck plays 40lands and 2 rocks because the ramp spells are insane. my jhoira arti deck plays 35 lands plusba massive amount of rovks.
Does anyone have any advise for getting card advantage in naya colors (Mayael)? I currently have harmonize, tireless tracker, and rishkar's expertise, but it still feels like it's not enough.
Sylvan Library is pretty much the best you can get I think, but it's kind of expensive. Mind's Eye and Skullclamp are respectable as well. Eternal Witness is amazing, as is Wheel of Fortune or any wheel-type effect. Soul of the Harvest, Garruk's Packleader and Garruk, Primal Hunter seem especially good in a Mayael deck. Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Chandra, Pyromaster kind of provide card advantage but are probably just too bad. I'm a huge fan of Sunforger and it's in your colours, but that card would require you to run a whole package to make it work, including cards like; Mistveil Plains, fetchlands and expedition map to fetch the Mistveil, several equipment tutors (Stoneforge Mystic, Steelshaper's Gift, Godo, etc), and a bunch of instants to get with the Sunforger. Great card advantage and toolbox potential, but would probably take up too many slots in your deck and cause Mayael's ability to fizzle.
There's always artifact based card advantage i.e. solemn simulacrum, mind's eye, rocks you can sac to draw (hedron archive, mind stone, commander's sphere), etc. But your commander already has decent card advantage built into her.
Some thoughts: Card advantage: since most Commander games are multiplayer, card advantage through wrath effects are only viable if your opponents have two or more creatures each. It's card disadvantage if you lose your own creature(s). Of course situations are individual, but a good rule of thumb is not to wrath if everyone only has one creature. Mana curve: Along with playing enough lands/ramp is having an efficient mana curve. Drawing a grip of 6+ CMC spells on turn one means you're playing draw-land-go for a while. Yes big CMC spells often win the game on the spot, but dying before you can cast one wrecks your deck so, find a balance. Patience: For the novice and even some intermediate players, tapping out every turn may very well win you more games than lose. However, learning when to not tap out, over-commit, and/or reduce your available options is probably the most important lesson for any magic player to learn in any format. We all have those Timmy moments and think "can I kill someone this turn (wink, wink Seth)" but rationalization on logical thinking are imperative in magic and taking a moment to think the puzzle out of "if I do X, then what Y may happen" can win the game.
I actually have a pretty different strategy for my mana base. My goal is to get between 38 and 41 lands, depending on how big my curve is. However, I always factor my mana rocks and the like into that number as fractions of a land. So for example, my Akiri + Silas Renn equipment deck runs ~36 lands, but it runs 9 or 10 mana rocks, which puts it at around 40 or 41 lands if you count each rock as half a land, which I find works fantastically. I think the 50% deck producing mana is a touch overkill, but perhaps that's just me.
Hehe. 38 lands! I did once build a five colored deck with only 25 basic forest. I never had mana problems. The rest of the deck was one drop mana dorks and then armageddon (destroy all lands) variants.
The 3 biggest commander mistakes: 1. Listening to anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander. 2. Applying anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander. 3. Repeating anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander.
Can you list off good card advantage cards in each color for commander? If you want, you can leave out blue, that is a little too easy. I play mono red and I cover all of these accept for card advantage
Mono red can run an "Outpost Siege" set to "Khans." It lets you "play" the exiled card so you still hit that land drop. Or if you're are feeling generous, you can run a "Howling Mine."
I think it might be worth saying just as a 3.2 as well that commanders with mana sink abilities are actually really useful to have if you are top decking. It means that you will never have nothing to do in a game.
Hey seth im kind of new in mtg and i really enjoy your brewers minute series but i cant seem to build good 3 color manabases in amonkhet standard. If you could do a video about the issue im sure alot of people would be interested. Keep up the good work though :)
No, all you need for 3 colour mana bases in standard is to run base green, then run 4 Attune with Aether. Add Unbridled Growth if you're still struggling.
I would generally appreciate to get some insight on manabases (Modern as well). You made the video on how to decide how many Lands you want to play, but i sometimes struggle to decide how many shocks of a colour, or how many fast lands instead of shocklands etc.
also id like to point out that often your good stuff cards can fit your theme like if you are playing human tribal you can play banisher priest and fiend hunter both as awnsers and they are humans or if you're doing elves most of your deck is going to produce mana just by playing that tribe, wizards are basically all interaction and card advantage.
Of course you could be me and only use on theme removal XD (such as goblin grenade, promo smash to smithereens, blasphemous act and chaos warp in my Krenko deck)
38 lands.. ohh... 36 is the sweet number. 1 of the 2 worst things is to get mana flooded or Mana screwed... I run 36 with 8+ ramp spells/mana rocks. I tend to stay away from mana drop because at least in my playgroup, there tends to be alot of boardwipes. Most games will have at least 3-5 boardwipes in someway or another. There tends to be less artifact/enchantment boardwipes and even with spot removal for those things... people tend to save those for big things like Akroma's Memorial or Aura Shards, etc. As for Ramp spells, most people dont waste counters on Ramp spells unless they know that you're deck is super powerful and they need to put a stop to you REAL early! When I'm running rocks, I tend to run rocks with 2ndary abilities.. I run Hedron Archive/mindstone, where I can sac it later for draw, the one that let's me scry or investigate because mid to late game I rather have draw than access to 10+ mana, especially when I only have 0-2 cards in hand anyways. I know that this video is almost 2 yrs old but I wondering if he has changed his mind on some of these tips?
It depends deck how much lands it needs i personally like my decks needing less lands than usual edh deck. So that usually means that i play much more low cost cards. I used to play deck whit eldrazi's and other big baddies, but getting manascrewed whit those kind a decks happens too often. My Sram edh deck have average manacost 2.39 and just 29 lands. It works well because i have make deck to work well whit so low landcount. It's not cheap deck, but i love that i succeed to maked it play smoothly, consistent and be competitive.
i play 33 lands in a 5 colour deck and 6 of the lands dont produce mana (unless there is urborg or lantern in play) but my curve pretty much ends at 5, i only have 5 cards with 5 or more cmc. as long as i have a green mana sorce in my startinghand im good to go (or white mana and land tax)
Land depends on the mana curve of the deck. I go 36 in my Skullbriar deck, and one of those lands is Dark Depths (why? Because Vampire Hexmage that’s why!) The low cost of my general gives me that flexibility with the tax, and with 4 rocks and about 4 fetch land cards I’m usually sitting pretty. Getting land flooded is lame.
Card advantage = mana. 36 lands and 2 extra card draw spells is what I stick to. As long as you have 33 lands, you will PROBABLY make your third land drop, so my theory is to just play card draw like phyrexian arena before my fourth land drop. Also if you play blue just play every cantrip. One mana is basically zero mana. The opportunity cost of throwing cantrips is so incredibly low, and they make so many more hands more keepable
what if your answers are part of your theme? I have an ob nixilis, unshackled deck where my theme is kinda a reverse of an aristocrat deck, where I kill a crapton of creatures, for example.
I have a friend who loves playing cat tribal but here's the thing, she runs only 2 spot removal, (not path/swords but glare of heresy) a single boardwipe, and no card draw. She still gets upset when she loses
40 lands + 10 mana ramp + 10 card draw + 10 removal + 29 cards to do what your deck does on average = my edh formula adjust based of meta and needed flavor/fun
Folks definitely make these mistakes way too much, and gripe about the way their games go without ever knowing what they were doing wrong. Great advice! That said... y'all actually play too many lands! 40 is madness! The secret fourth mistake people make way too much in EDH is... *drumroll* having a curve that is too high! If you bring your curve down, playing more 1 and 2 drops while playing fewer of -anything over 5-, then not only does your deck run more smoothly, you can trim down on mana sources and include more actual cards! My decks all start at 35 land and 8-10 1-2 mana accelerants (and the cmc on these is key) with a mix of Rampant Growth effects and mana rocks. Sol Ring, Crypt/Vault if you have 'em, all available Signets and Talismans, Mind Stone, Fellwar Stone, Rampant Growth, Farseek, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Knight of the White Orchid, the list of options at 2- is huge. Kodama's Reach/Cultivate and the like should be outliers in your ramp package, not the meat and potatoes. Mana Reflection is not a ramp card, don't count it as one! Blue decks have it even better, as they should all start with Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain/Serum Visions/Top, which help smooth out your draws and lower your curve. Get that average CMC as close to 3 as possible!
Always remember that land > rocks. What good is a bunch of rocks if Austure Command or Bane of Progress kills 50-75% of your mana base on turn 6? This means if you are not green put in Burnished Heart, Solemn, Wayfarers Bauble, Sword of the Animist, Pilgrim's Eye, and maybe even artifact or creature recursion to reuse them from the graveyard like Myr Retriever or Junk Diver. Rocks are still important, they are wonderful for fast mana and speeding your curve. If you're doing lots of artifact recursion, untappers, or if you have ways to protect them like with Darksteel Forge, put in more than normal. If your deck has artifacts matters or land drops matters cards, adjust accordingly. Still, lands should be your priority, onto the battlefield will ramp you, and drawing enough to make a drop per turn is important.
the only time I ever replace a mana producing land is if its for a very cheap fetch, a 1-3 mana searcher like pilgrim's eye, renegade map, armillary sphere, expidition map, traveler's amulet, etc that can help you fix. Of course green has better ones like Traverse the Ulvenwald, Sakura Tribe Elder, and Attune With Aether.
I should mention that it goes land > rocks > DORKS. Mana Dorks tend to be wiped even more than artifacts, but since they're also creatures, so they can still impact the board, chump, or even ping opponents if you are ramping faster than your curve.
This point goes both ways. What good are all your rocks when you get hit by Armageddon? And if you're playing on curve making a land for turn and I'm ramping to a five drop on turn three, you're going to struggle pretty quickly to actually beat me.
You have a point, don't put your eggs all in one basket. A good mix of rocks and lands will keep you safe from either scenario. Armageddon is much more rare to find than artifact hate, and either winds up with the table scooping and excusing that player from the next game, or there is a house rule against it, since it usually just over-extends the game or screws over the table. If you ramp with lands, or ramp with rocks, you'll come out being just as fast to a 5 drop either way. Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and Mana Vault are the exceptions. They are fast mana, and not comparable.
Actually ramping with rocks is almost always more efficient, point-for-point. Compare, say, Fellwar Stone and Rampant Growth: Fellwar makes the mana available immediately for another play, Rampant does not. It's less obvious in the 2/3 mana range but extremely obvious at 4-5. As for Armageddons, eh. I don't tend to assume that a table plays outside the rules of the game. They happen, and being prepared for them is wise. They're also much more costly to the table than artifact removal: being the player that can win through a rock board wipe is... okay, but being the player that can win through the land wipe is game-winning.
'No interaction' is not a mistake, it's a strategy. For some decks it works well, for others not. My personal "I want to win today" deck is a mono-red combo deck that doesn't even have a single burn spell, but tons of synergy, combo pieces plus card filtering. Most of the time, people don't even see the winning move coming. Tried similar things in other colors, just didn't work there without some defense.
I'm pretty sure ALL of my commander decks have exactly 36 lands each, and around 3-4 mana rocks. Xenagos has ramp and cards like kodama's reach, explosive vegetation etc. so it's never been an issue there. I probably should have 38 but its next to impossible to cut the two cards needed to fill that land slot. lol
I have never put 40/24 lands in any constructed deck, and let me tell you, it is hilarious when I am finishing an opponent who went land-go the whole game (note: my decks rarely have any 3cc or higher spells). Right now my legacy Goblins deck runs 19 lands, my Izzet/Grixis modern deck runs 22...I never have mana problems. The only times I have issues is if I follow the "correct" deck building rules and flood out.
to be fair 24 is about the average of a control/mid range build in standard/modern your two examples are aggro decks in my opinion. grixis could be argued to be control but its more aggro/attrition in my opinion and doesnt play anything you really need to hit your land drops for
to be honest, if someone's playing a tribal deck, and they use wrath of god, usually my response is less along the lines of "you need that for commander" and more along the lines of, "hey, why are you behind on creatures in a tribal deck".
Yeah, I try to go something like 35 lands / 13 rocks, maybe 36 lands / 12 rocks. That seems to give you fairly reliable chances of getting two lands and a rock in your opener and drawing a third land by the time you need it. (Or three lands in opener, draw a rock; or two lands and a rock, draw a second rock; either of which are a little worse but still passable.) I could see increasing the land / rock ratio for a mono-colored deck since you don't needs as much fixing, and of course green's a different situation since it has a lot of ramp options besides rocks.
Just yesterday, I had to cut Walking Sponge, Giant Shark, Giant Octopus, and Giant Oyster from my monoblue sea creatures deck to make room for ramp and answers. Not the easiest of decisions when building a theme deck. :(
Here are my 3 biggest Mistakes for commander decks: Going too big. Big flashy spells are awesome and Commander is THE format to play them. But not to play ALL of them. If you got no early plays you might weaken your commander significantly. For example: You play Meren of Clan Nel Thoth. If you haven't played 1-2 Creatures before you play meren, or even worse: Haven't got any creatures into your graveyard before/at the turn you play meren... then you've done something wrong. Sure it's nice to play meren and get an experience counter. But it is also worth it to play meren, end the turn and get a Caustic Caterpillar back. The worst is ending the turn and getting nothing. Or if you play Ghave as your commander... you need to establish a board, before you play ghave. Ghave is a good turn 5 Commander but only if you can utilize his abilities the same turn. (So you should have 7-8 Mana available) Otherwise you got a 5/5 without abilities sitting there for an entire round. Also what do you think you can do about early agression? Even Infect? Relying too much on your good cards. You know this. You got a strategy in mind, and you got these awesome cards that'll get you there. Be sure they're going to be removed or countered. usually you dont play with idiots. At least when they've seen what your deck does, they know what to look out for. They wont waste a path to exile on just a big Creature of yours, but on your wincons. And as long as your not running a counterheavy blue deck... you're not going to prevent that. So: Build in multiple winconditions. Every deck I run can win in at least 3-4 Ways plus most of them via Value. Don't think, that people will take your shit. Dont get me wrong, it's okay to play heavy controll. It's okay to play obnoxious decks. But do not think people wont hate on these decks, if they see them again. I got one in my playgroup, who likes to play artifact decks (my biggest nemesis deck-type ... just hate it) and his artifact decks are the WORST. He likes to go and destroy lands as early as turn 3/4. 1 Mana per Land. (He can turn anything into an artifact and turn any artifact into an artifactcreature basepower and toughness equal manacost, which is 0/0 on a land). He did this once and won this game. Since then, whenever he gets out this deck, I and others on the playgroup, will hate on him. His mistake is: He thought this would never happen. He is always pissed, when we destroy his entire gameplan and/or winoptions. He was especially pissed when I resolved a merciless eviction, targeting artifacts after he had build an impressive board state with darkstellforge. So remember: Either play heavy controll or whatever strategy you like. But don't think people wont remember it. And if it's build to piss them off, they'll take revenge.
this is my break down on deck building for me 38 lands 10 mana ramp 10 draw 5 wraths 5 removal 1 artifact / enchantment removal 1 graveyard hate 30 theme of deck. give or take on a few of these things.
Slivers are the jack of all trades i rarely have problems with casting them heck i managed to win a game with only 3 to 4 lands all because of how versatile they are
i play 37 land 10 rocks normally but most of my decks curve at 3 with only 6 5 drops max 3-4 6 drops max and only a max of 2 7+ drops i like to have low to the ground strategies myself though
I always aim for 36 land and 5 rock. Or 8 rock with cantrip. For "Answer" All my commander has at least 2 answer to Artifact/Enchantment, None-targetted removal and anti graveyard. Oh and at least one "destroy target land"
my biggest problem when building commander decks is finding enough cards to put in it. I always go for between 36 and 40 lands and never have any issues with mana
One of biggest mistake people often do is focus their deck too much on their commander.. so when their commander gets killed/countered/neutralized they just can't do anything..
Yeah, that happens a lot, it was more important back when ur commander could get tucked away... still really important because of hate cards that can turn off the commander.
My typical commander game: 0) Turn 1-4 i play stuff incl my commander. 1) Im behind on mana around turn 4 2) my commander is removed at turn 5. 3) Im empty handed, or heckbent, at turn 7 4) I try to claw my way back in the game during turn 8-9, by top decking or replaying my commander using all my mana because of commander tax. 5) Im knocked out at turn 10.
Coming from someone who has been playing EDH for years 36 lands is standard. If you're running a good amount of mana rocks/dorks it's 34 lands. If you need more than that your curve is too high or you don't have enough non land mana sources. 38 or 40 is just begging for mana flooding. 50% of your deck being mana sources is ludicrous.
I just found this video a year late, but wanted to reply. I agree with most of what you wrote, but having 50% of your deck related to mana doesn't have to mean just lands and signets.
I play mono black and use cards like Gauntlet, Caged Sun, Crypt Ghast, Nirkana Revenant, Liliana of the Dark Realms, Solemn Simulacrum, expedition Map and so forth which all easily take my deck intothat 50% range.
There are other examples, like blue based artifact decks like Breya whic use the various Vedalkin Articifer creatures, or green decks which want land ramp like Cultivate and exploding veggies.
It depends on how fast your meta is. Despite all the talk online not many people actually play cEDH. Far more people play games that got beyond turn 8 instead of ending on 4 or 5.
a pohto my cEDH deck has 50% of it being mana. I have 30 lands and 19 mana rocks and a simian Spirit Guide that always exiles for the mana.
I know it's a comment from over a year ago but I'm curious in that case how you build your decks.
Asking since between land search, aignets and with a base of about 36 cards... 50% of your deck providing some kind of mana boost makes perfect sense.
It's not like they said 50 lands, just 50% having to do with mana-acceleration.
if you play cEDH or yoir deck is low curved, the you are right.
but 34 plus mabe 12 rocks is begging for manascrew, my best dude does this all the time and keeps 2lander openings xD
@@Shikogo we play pretty low power to.
can i make a recommendation?
try 38 lands, three of them fetchlands (the common ones like terramorphic expanse and evolving wilds, if you dont want to spend a wealth on the OG ones) that reduces your lands that effectively make mana to 35. its not that big of a stretch and i have very good results with that.
I've had this very same conversation with my kitchen table playgroup. It's just not fun playing against someone who is mana screwed. you feel bad for them, avoid interactions with them in order to allow them to catch up.. but at the end of the day when they sit there with 2 lands on turn 4 and draw/pass... they just aren't playing magic. it's finally sticking with a couple of them though!
You should never be in this situation without being the target of land destruction. A good rule is too never play a hand with less than three lands. Just mulligan.
Agreed, it's no fun playing stax when the opponent misses their land drop. Knowing that their misery is largely caused by them not drawing any lands rather than your stax effects gotta be the most miserable feeling ever.
1. Good, depends completely on the curve though and amount of ramp
2. Personally opinion determining power level
3. Great advice
I generally find 36-37 lands to be enough as long as you play the right mana accelerants.
Honestly, a lot of my decks run about 34-36, and run off of mana rocks, 38 is too many unless you aren't playing many forms of mana acceleration, or ar playing a lands matter deck
@@tristansherman9611 36 lands + ten accelerants has never really failed me.
@@aidennoir597 Me neither
In summary:
1. Play enough lands and ramp.
2. Play enough answers.
3. Play enough card draw.
Seems reasonable! I like to stick to those rules too!
I do however change up my numbers:
37 lands, 7 ramp, 7 answers, 7 card draw. If I go over, that's fine too, but those are my absolute minimums.
SpooOOOooOOky lightning greaves!
The 100% rule: Goodstuff is 100% on theme, and you can't prove otherwise.
the spooky boots are essential in most decks.
Nonono, festive boots.
Trask Nari seeing your channel name here was a huge flashback for me wow
Same here
You can't play a Phyrexian Obliterator in a Vampire deck!
A Random Opinion No, they sac the permanents!
Yes, I get that but that would be like putting Ulumog in your vampire deck
The third Shard Well technically, zendikar's vampires ar a part of ulamog's broodswarm
Goddamit Kathleen why you only gotta have 3 lines?
sure i can
I definitely disagree with you on this one, Seth. Need for excessive card advantage (#3) is directly caused by playing too much support cards and lands (#1). If less than half of my deck contains real gas, no wonder I need to Stroke myself a few times to get to those juicy bits. There's nothing wrong with playing straight from the top if 65% of your cards have the ability to affect the board state in a significant way.
You're right about interaction though! I hate it when green players don't run any enchantment or artifact removal. I mean, come on, I was counting on you to get rid of that Winter Orb!
maritachikuge My deck runs fine and i have just enough to keep me from topdecking
Players with dorks don't have much interest in spending their resources on removing Winter Orb, especially if it hits you harder than them.
Thanks a bunch! I usually have trouble finding the right balance of interactions and 'theme' cards, and I can't wait to go back and look at my decks with these tips in mind!
I generally do just fine with 36 lands, then again I do play green...
Very helpful! I've made all of these mistakes in the past. They are very hard to avoid.
Awesome stuff Seth! I'd love to see more videos like this! I have to say, the one mistake I say people make the most often is the mana one. I rarely, if ever, go below 40 lands and 10 other mana sources, and I'm happy with that as I basically never get manascrewed. It's so much more fun actually getting to play your cards.
Great to see a commander focused Brewer's Minute!
I've heard a good way to think about lands/ramp is every 2 ramp cards = 1 land effectively.
Rampant Growth + Darksteel Ingot = 1 land etc...
I've also noticed people in general play way to little interaction, and card draw.
Woooooow this is a totally must see video of all magic content in TH-cam, thank you so much guys !!!
Great advice especially for newer players in edh. Answers are important especially depending on your play group. My group has alot of blue or green based combo decks so cards like krosan grip are essential in our meta.
alot of new players forget to play answers.
So I have a Dragon Tribal deck, best thing about that is Dragons /are/ answers for almost anything. So, 40% Land, 10% Ramp, 40% theme, 50% answers.
How dare you suggest my deck not contain 100% cats.
I have a mono blue high tide edh deck with 29 islands. It works because a quarter of the deck is artifact ramp, another quarter is cantrips to hit your land drops, and the rest are interaction and combo pieces. The low land count is because when the deck is going off, you do not want to wheel into land heavy hands.
This is good enough basic guide. I usually build with about 35-38 lands and about 6-10 mana ramp and it works out fine, but that's just my style. The thing I think it's important to say about this is that is very important for any deck is to know how to optimize all this categories (which are indeed very important) so that each card you play has the most specific, optimal and synergistic function within the deck. Examples of this can be any one mana ramp for any three mana commander that wants to enter the battlefield turn two; phyrexian arena or rhystic study, both of which will end up providing the greatest amount of crard draw three mana can buy; or act of authority in Brago.
Another important point is the versatility of a card. If a card enters into more than one category of your deck you can get away with counting it for both so you can play more cards. A good examples of this are mind stone and solemn, which are not great ramp or card advantage by themselves, but the fact that they give you both card draw and mana ramp makes them much better. Another card I want to mention for this category is the new card Spring to Mind. This card is in no ones radar, but I believe it will easily become a G/U staple if given the chance
i think a good general rule for lands and mana ramp is that you want between 45-50 sources of mana in any given commander deck so if your very heavy on mana rocks or cultivate type effects its usually fine to go down to 35-36 lands. but for the most part I've found playing 37-38 lands and 8-12 rocks to be the sweet spot.
You forgot the fourth biggest mistake: Building Leovold
I usually start at 40 lands and remove 1 land for every two ramp spells / rocks, then add one land for each colour in the deck beyond the first. Here's an example of a 3 colour deck with 10 ramp/rocks: 40 lands - 1/2 of mana rocks/ramp = 35 + 1 for every colour in the deck beyond the first = 37. I may add more if my CMC is high, or remove more if I have a tonne of card draw, but that is my general rule, and it has worked well for me.
The theme role you have can sometimes work both ways. I remember watching a commander match where somebody was using blood tyrant wishes it card that benefits from discarding cards from your deck into the graveyard and yet he didn't have a single card in his deck that actually helped that mechanic.
What if theme is bad stuff or mediocre stuff? Then that good stuff would be pretty unfitting and even hide the theme.
Then I think you'd have to find bad "good stuff." I think you could still play removal, wraths and card draw, just the worst options, which would probably actually strengthen the theme.
Colgate Lampinen wondering who's going to be the general.. in my opinion a good option fitting the theme could be Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Although some strong Build around me commanders like Mishra and Zur can be weak when not building around them, I'd rather avoid them, because they don't give that bad or mediocre feel until people realize they are not actually built around. Grixis is fine colour identity though for mediocre stuff and I would play Gwendlyn Di Corci as a commander. For the bad stuff there is two options, either go for Haakon and play as much bad stuff as you can with the worst commander or play Cromat to get access to all the bad stuff through the history of magic. I prefer Cromat, because other colours offer so much more bad stuff for example Battle of Wits.
any legendary from legends would make a fine bad/meh commander
Adun Oakenshield, Hazezon Tamar, Nicol Bolas and Rasputin are decent commanders from Legends.
Hey Seth, do you think it'd be possible to make a competitive all spell RB burn deck? Based off lightning bolt bump in the night
This is great! These guidelines are really useful. Commander forever!
You should also encourage the rest of your group to follow these tips. Can't count how many times I answer the threat on the table because nobody else can be bothered to run removal. Makes the games more fun.
I put in more ramp than most so I tend to go 35-37 lands on average. I have always tried to keep my average mana curve around 4 or 5. I found that when I had 38-40 lands I just started top decking more lands late in the game when you need gas. Aside from including more draw card stuff I decided to replace the lands I was removing for ramp spells to take lands out of my deck. I tend to also mulligan more to make sure I have at least 3 lands starting where I see a lot of people keeping 1 or 2 land hands.
When it comes building Commander decks, I go 36 lands, 63 spells. I don't often get mana screwed, and I don't use a super high amount of mana rocks.
what was that card in the background of the dude puking gold? greed?
Yeah, that's greed.
Chris Trensey yup, C13 version :-)
adanaz9 sure is Eternal Bargain 4thewin
Hey Seth, I don't know if you create the visuals for your videos yourself but I think they really look great! Keep up the good work!
Commander 40 lands may be the equivalent of 60 card 24 lands, but it's important to note that 35 lands in a commander deck is equivalent to 21 lands in a 60 card deck. Depending on tuning, mana rocks and ramp as well as the overall CMC of the deck and card advantage, 35 lands may be just right in your deck. (though that tends to be one lean in lots of cases)
It's also important to note that lots of really dense mana lands are available in commander, from the Karoo lands to Cabal Coffers and Gaia's cradle. All of which represent a single card that has higher mana density than average lands.
Hey Seth, I was wondering if playing a lot of harrow-like spells (including 1cmc spells like collective voyage) in a Tatyova deck could count has an exception to the ''have enough land principle''. I mean, I know that that could mess with the number of lands you'll get in the opening hand, but still.
I think that having a lot of ramp spells helps. You have to make sure you have enough lands to cast them, but if you've got a bunch of ramp you can cut back on lands a bit.
For my Sliver Commander, I have like 38 lands, 3 ways to make my creatures tap for Mana, and 2 ways for my lands to tap for any color Mana. My extra section is where the fun is! ;)
Hi
I want to combine jeleva's deck( commander 2013) with seize control ( commander 2015)
How do you think should I do this? ( I will add the black color to seize control) and are there any specific cards I should get in the deck?
( I bought jace unraveler of secrets as a planeswalker)
Tnx for your answers!
Just some steps you can take to start your process if Seth can't get to you:
1.) See what you have.
The two decks you have (I'm assuming you have both) are very focused on casting instants and sorceries, however, they do them in two very different ways. I'm sure you know this, but Mind Seize is all about casting very large spells for free with Jeleva, while Seize Control is about ramping up your experience counters to cast a lot of things for free, or utilize the X cost for a lot of value. You can't really do both unfortunately (it would be difficult as your attention would be split), so you'll have to decide how to mix the two.
2.) Decide what type of deck you want to play and which commander you want to run (Spell slinger/control/tokens/etc)
There are a lot of very good cards in both decks, but it seems like Mind Seize isn't very focused in what it wants to do right out of the box. Take the inclusion of Nekusar, the Mindrazer for example: he's a very focused commander by himself, but he doesn't really work with Jeleva. If you used him as your commander, you could mix both decks to great effect. Take the multiple ways that Seize Control has to make everyone draw cards (Jace's Archivist, Windfall, Dragon Mage), and mix it with Nekusar and the controlling cards included in Mind Seize. Other inclusions from Seize Control would be Psychosis Crawler, Talrand, Mystic Retrieval, Right of Replication, as well as spells that help you draw cards and control the board. Include ways to protect yourself like Baleful Strix, Propaganda, and Aetherize. This could be a really fun deck - you draw cards, deal damage to everyone, and can protect yourself fairly well. It may be annoying for other people (Nekusar can be that way), but that's not what we're worried about here.
3) Follow good deck building principles.
I know this is silly to mention, but I'm guessing you don't want to buy a lot of new cards (I'm the same way, budget all the way). So, whatever direction you decide to go in, try and make sure that you have a good mana curve, cut down on the super high cmc cards, focus your deck idea, make sure you include enough mana (just as Seth said), make sure you have counters and removal for other people's game plans (you're playing blue most likely, take the hit and buy some of the over performing and relatively cheap spells and counters: Swan Song, Arcane Denial, Memory Lapse, Disallow if you want, and Cyclonic Rift; also make space for Vandalblast even though it's not super exciting), and try your best to find cheap includes to follow your game plan (Fevered Visions would be great with Nekusar).
With these two decks, you have a lot of powerful cards, but they don't all just fit together. I'm sure you'll be able to find a good mix for the two of them, and maybe even a couple different ways! I would suggest trying to see how well Nekusar would work for you - I think it could be super fun and you won't have to buy much. Whatever you decide to do, as long as you play sufficient ways of drawing cards, getting mana, and interacting with your opponents, I think you'll come up with a fun and interesting deck. Best of luck in your deck making process!
it massively depends on what you are playing.
do you play a color thats good at ramp or complety off-ramp.
do i play green or not?
do i need rock?
my mono green deck plays 40lands and 2 rocks because the ramp spells are insane.
my jhoira arti deck plays 35 lands plusba massive amount of rovks.
Does anyone have any advise for getting card advantage in naya colors (Mayael)? I currently have harmonize, tireless tracker, and rishkar's expertise, but it still feels like it's not enough.
Sylvan Library is pretty much the best you can get I think, but it's kind of expensive. Mind's Eye and Skullclamp are respectable as well. Eternal Witness is amazing, as is Wheel of Fortune or any wheel-type effect. Soul of the Harvest, Garruk's Packleader and Garruk, Primal Hunter seem especially good in a Mayael deck.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Chandra, Pyromaster kind of provide card advantage but are probably just too bad.
I'm a huge fan of Sunforger and it's in your colours, but that card would require you to run a whole package to make it work, including cards like; Mistveil Plains, fetchlands and expedition map to fetch the Mistveil, several equipment tutors (Stoneforge Mystic, Steelshaper's Gift, Godo, etc), and a bunch of instants to get with the Sunforger. Great card advantage and toolbox potential, but would probably take up too many slots in your deck and cause Mayael's ability to fizzle.
There's always artifact based card advantage i.e. solemn simulacrum, mind's eye, rocks you can sac to draw (hedron archive, mind stone, commander's sphere), etc. But your commander already has decent card advantage built into her.
Land Tax
How many card advantage spells do you run?
Some thoughts:
Card advantage: since most Commander games are multiplayer, card advantage through wrath effects are only viable if your opponents have two or more creatures each. It's card disadvantage if you lose your own creature(s). Of course situations are individual, but a good rule of thumb is not to wrath if everyone only has one creature.
Mana curve: Along with playing enough lands/ramp is having an efficient mana curve. Drawing a grip of 6+ CMC spells on turn one means you're playing draw-land-go for a while. Yes big CMC spells often win the game on the spot, but dying before you can cast one wrecks your deck so, find a balance.
Patience: For the novice and even some intermediate players, tapping out every turn may very well win you more games than lose. However, learning when to not tap out, over-commit, and/or reduce your available options is probably the most important lesson for any magic player to learn in any format. We all have those Timmy moments and think "can I kill someone this turn (wink, wink Seth)" but rationalization on logical thinking are imperative in magic and taking a moment to think the puzzle out of "if I do X, then what Y may happen" can win the game.
the one point with the mana rocks i learned the hard way...
but I guess that's why everyone loves Collective Voyage
I actually have a pretty different strategy for my mana base. My goal is to get between 38 and 41 lands, depending on how big my curve is. However, I always factor my mana rocks and the like into that number as fractions of a land. So for example, my Akiri + Silas Renn equipment deck runs ~36 lands, but it runs 9 or 10 mana rocks, which puts it at around 40 or 41 lands if you count each rock as half a land, which I find works fantastically. I think the 50% deck producing mana is a touch overkill, but perhaps that's just me.
Hehe. 38 lands! I did once build a five colored deck with only 25 basic forest. I never had mana problems. The rest of the deck was one drop mana dorks and then armageddon (destroy all lands) variants.
The 3 biggest commander mistakes:
1. Listening to anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander.
2. Applying anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander.
3. Repeating anything anyone at tcgplayer has to say about commander.
Can you list off good card advantage cards in each color for commander? If you want, you can leave out blue, that is a little too easy.
I play mono red and I cover all of these accept for card advantage
Mono red can run an "Outpost Siege" set to "Khans." It lets you "play" the exiled card so you still hit that land drop. Or if you're are feeling generous, you can run a "Howling Mine."
Any wheel effects in red are also good, especially if you can mess up an opponent's hand at the same time.
What do you expect Gideon to fall to after rotation?
Some, but it does see Modern and even Legacy play, so not too much. It's about $20 now, I could see it dropping to $10-ish.
I think it might be worth saying just as a 3.2 as well that commanders with mana sink abilities are actually really useful to have if you are top decking. It means that you will never have nothing to do in a game.
Hey seth im kind of new in mtg and i really enjoy your brewers minute series but i cant seem to build good 3 color manabases in amonkhet standard. If you could do a video about the issue im sure alot of people would be interested. Keep up the good work though :)
Good idea! I'll add it to the to-do list :)
Oh, those are easy.
First thing you need to do is have more money than sense.Alternatively, find a sugar daddy.
No, all you need for 3 colour mana bases in standard is to run base green, then run 4 Attune with Aether. Add Unbridled Growth if you're still struggling.
I would generally appreciate to get some insight on manabases (Modern as well). You made the video on how to decide how many Lands you want to play, but i sometimes struggle to decide how many shocks of a colour, or how many fast lands instead of shocklands etc.
Dual lands, mate. Well, depending on the type of deck you're trying to do.
you guys should do more of this stuff
also id like to point out that often your good stuff cards can fit your theme like if you are playing human tribal you can play banisher priest and fiend hunter both as awnsers and they are humans or if you're doing elves most of your deck is going to produce mana just by playing that tribe, wizards are basically all interaction and card advantage.
Good point! Cards that are "good stuff" and on theme are the best.
"Commander is about having fun." While I may agree, my Meren deck sure doesn't.
Kristian T. Kenwood I just added a Bojuka Bog, Trespassers Curse, and Curse of Oblivion to my Saskia deck to deal with stuff like Meren
Alexander Wareham Panoptic Mirror is solid but I don't run blue so no Cyclonic Rift for me
Franklin Milliren perilous vault 5 or 6$ in paper goes in every deck exiles all non land perms
Franklin Milliren lots of cards like rip or leyline of void shit on meren
Kristian T. Kenwood If you're deck isn't fun to play in a casual format, it might be best to build a new one.
Of course you could be me and only use on theme removal XD (such as goblin grenade, promo smash to smithereens, blasphemous act and chaos warp in my Krenko deck)
Very insightful. Thanks for this video
38 lands.. ohh... 36 is the sweet number. 1 of the 2 worst things is to get mana flooded or Mana screwed...
I run 36 with 8+ ramp spells/mana rocks. I tend to stay away from mana drop because at least in my playgroup, there tends to be alot of boardwipes. Most games will have at least 3-5 boardwipes in someway or another. There tends to be less artifact/enchantment boardwipes and even with spot removal for those things... people tend to save those for big things like Akroma's Memorial or Aura Shards, etc. As for Ramp spells, most people dont waste counters on Ramp spells unless they know that you're deck is super powerful and they need to put a stop to you REAL early!
When I'm running rocks, I tend to run rocks with 2ndary abilities.. I run Hedron Archive/mindstone, where I can sac it later for draw, the one that let's me scry or investigate because mid to late game I rather have draw than access to 10+ mana, especially when I only have 0-2 cards in hand anyways.
I know that this video is almost 2 yrs old but I wondering if he has changed his mind on some of these tips?
It depends deck how much lands it needs i personally like my decks needing less lands than usual edh deck. So that usually means that i play much more low cost cards. I used to play deck whit eldrazi's and other big baddies, but getting manascrewed whit those kind a decks happens too often. My Sram edh deck have average manacost 2.39 and just 29 lands. It works well because i have make deck to work well whit so low landcount. It's not cheap deck, but i love that i succeed to maked it play smoothly, consistent and be competitive.
i play 33 lands in a 5 colour deck and 6 of the lands dont produce mana (unless there is urborg or lantern in play) but my curve pretty much ends at 5, i only have 5 cards with 5 or more cmc. as long as i have a green mana sorce in my startinghand im good to go (or white mana and land tax)
Land depends on the mana curve of the deck. I go 36 in my Skullbriar deck, and one of those lands is Dark Depths (why? Because Vampire Hexmage that’s why!) The low cost of my general gives me that flexibility with the tax, and with 4 rocks and about 4 fetch land cards I’m usually sitting pretty. Getting land flooded is lame.
Card advantage = mana. 36 lands and 2 extra card draw spells is what I stick to. As long as you have 33 lands, you will PROBABLY make your third land drop, so my theory is to just play card draw like phyrexian arena before my fourth land drop. Also if you play blue just play every cantrip. One mana is basically zero mana. The opportunity cost of throwing cantrips is so incredibly low, and they make so many more hands more keepable
what if your answers are part of your theme? I have an ob nixilis, unshackled deck where my theme is kinda a reverse of an aristocrat deck, where I kill a crapton of creatures, for example.
Then include them! Having your theme be able to answer and interact is awesome. It feels rewarding too!
Good content as always. Thx Seth!
I have a friend who loves playing cat tribal but here's the thing, she runs only 2 spot removal, (not path/swords but glare of heresy) a single boardwipe, and no card draw. She still gets upset when she loses
Anyone know who that zombie king looking dude in the background is? He looks awesome
did you make this video yourself ? nice editting
Great advice, good sir! I'll take note of all that.
Thanks a lot. :)
40 lands + 10 mana ramp + 10 card draw + 10 removal + 29 cards to do what your deck does on average = my edh formula adjust based of meta and needed flavor/fun
no card advantage. That's my most common mistake
Folks definitely make these mistakes way too much, and gripe about the way their games go without ever knowing what they were doing wrong. Great advice!
That said... y'all actually play too many lands! 40 is madness!
The secret fourth mistake people make way too much in EDH is... *drumroll* having a curve that is too high! If you bring your curve down, playing more 1 and 2 drops while playing fewer of -anything over 5-, then not only does your deck run more smoothly, you can trim down on mana sources and include more actual cards!
My decks all start at 35 land and 8-10 1-2 mana accelerants (and the cmc on these is key) with a mix of Rampant Growth effects and mana rocks. Sol Ring, Crypt/Vault if you have 'em, all available Signets and Talismans, Mind Stone, Fellwar Stone, Rampant Growth, Farseek, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Knight of the White Orchid, the list of options at 2- is huge. Kodama's Reach/Cultivate and the like should be outliers in your ramp package, not the meat and potatoes. Mana Reflection is not a ramp card, don't count it as one!
Blue decks have it even better, as they should all start with Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain/Serum Visions/Top, which help smooth out your draws and lower your curve.
Get that average CMC as close to 3 as possible!
Anyone ever say you sound like Charlie, the Intern, from Bojack Horseman?
This is the first time I think.
dantezco You mean that guy sounds like Seth, right?
dantezco or chris from family guy
forgot to check a cards color identity.
Abilities does count too.
Hybrid mana is multicolored
Special is Exort because it's only Reminder Text.
Nice tips! But the shift between the tips was kinda not there.
Always remember that land > rocks. What good is a bunch of rocks if Austure Command or Bane of Progress kills 50-75% of your mana base on turn 6? This means if you are not green put in Burnished Heart, Solemn, Wayfarers Bauble, Sword of the Animist, Pilgrim's Eye, and maybe even artifact or creature recursion to reuse them from the graveyard like Myr Retriever or Junk Diver. Rocks are still important, they are wonderful for fast mana and speeding your curve. If you're doing lots of artifact recursion, untappers, or if you have ways to protect them like with Darksteel Forge, put in more than normal. If your deck has artifacts matters or land drops matters cards, adjust accordingly. Still, lands should be your priority, onto the battlefield will ramp you, and drawing enough to make a drop per turn is important.
the only time I ever replace a mana producing land is if its for a very cheap fetch, a 1-3 mana searcher like pilgrim's eye, renegade map, armillary sphere, expidition map, traveler's amulet, etc that can help you fix. Of course green has better ones like Traverse the Ulvenwald, Sakura Tribe Elder, and Attune With Aether.
I should mention that it goes land > rocks > DORKS. Mana Dorks tend to be wiped even more than artifacts, but since they're also creatures, so they can still impact the board, chump, or even ping opponents if you are ramping faster than your curve.
This point goes both ways. What good are all your rocks when you get hit by Armageddon?
And if you're playing on curve making a land for turn and I'm ramping to a five drop on turn three, you're going to struggle pretty quickly to actually beat me.
You have a point, don't put your eggs all in one basket. A good mix of rocks and lands will keep you safe from either scenario. Armageddon is much more rare to find than artifact hate, and either winds up with the table scooping and excusing that player from the next game, or there is a house rule against it, since it usually just over-extends the game or screws over the table.
If you ramp with lands, or ramp with rocks, you'll come out being just as fast to a 5 drop either way.
Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, and Mana Vault are the exceptions. They are fast mana, and not comparable.
Actually ramping with rocks is almost always more efficient, point-for-point. Compare, say, Fellwar Stone and Rampant Growth: Fellwar makes the mana available immediately for another play, Rampant does not. It's less obvious in the 2/3 mana range but extremely obvious at 4-5.
As for Armageddons, eh. I don't tend to assume that a table plays outside the rules of the game. They happen, and being prepared for them is wise. They're also much more costly to the table than artifact removal: being the player that can win through a rock board wipe is... okay, but being the player that can win through the land wipe is game-winning.
'No interaction' is not a mistake, it's a strategy. For some decks it works well, for others not. My personal "I want to win today" deck is a mono-red combo deck that doesn't even have a single burn spell, but tons of synergy, combo pieces plus card filtering. Most of the time, people don't even see the winning move coming. Tried similar things in other colors, just didn't work there without some defense.
What EDH deck plays burn spells?
Colgate Lampinen I think he means "damage based creature removal" when he says "burn spells.
that's why your theme should always be ramp and card advantage.
general rule of thumb i've seen is 40 lands, minus 1 for every 2 rocks/ramp spells.
I'm pretty sure ALL of my commander decks have exactly 36 lands each, and around 3-4 mana rocks. Xenagos has ramp and cards like kodama's reach, explosive vegetation etc. so it's never been an issue there. I probably should have 38 but its next to impossible to cut the two cards needed to fill that land slot. lol
I run 36 lands and I've still had games where I top decked 7 lands in a row :(
Whooo I avoided all of these in my first commander deck I just recently built!
I have never put 40/24 lands in any constructed deck, and let me tell you, it is hilarious when I am finishing an opponent who went land-go the whole game (note: my decks rarely have any 3cc or higher spells). Right now my legacy Goblins deck runs 19 lands, my Izzet/Grixis modern deck runs 22...I never have mana problems. The only times I have issues is if I follow the "correct" deck building rules and flood out.
to be fair 24 is about the average of a control/mid range build in standard/modern your two examples are aggro decks in my opinion. grixis could be argued to be control but its more aggro/attrition in my opinion and doesnt play anything you really need to hit your land drops for
to be honest, if someone's playing a tribal deck, and they use wrath of god, usually my response is less along the lines of "you need that for commander" and more along the lines of, "hey, why are you behind on creatures in a tribal deck".
During the whole "on theme" part, I could not stop thinking about spoooky greaves. Funny.
Yeah, while I didn't think of it at the time, it's actually a defense for Tomer playing Lightning Greaves.
MTGGoldfish SpOoOoOoOoOoKy lobber crew
I run 33 lands in my Kruphix deck. But I also run 30 one and two drops.
So useful video... Thanks!
I have a Minotaur deck with 5-6 mana dorks and it has a low curve
I usually use 35 lands and I get flooded more tgen getting mana screwed. but I use a lot of rocks.
Yeah, I try to go something like 35 lands / 13 rocks, maybe 36 lands / 12 rocks. That seems to give you fairly reliable chances of getting two lands and a rock in your opener and drawing a third land by the time you need it. (Or three lands in opener, draw a rock; or two lands and a rock, draw a second rock; either of which are a little worse but still passable.) I could see increasing the land / rock ratio for a mono-colored deck since you don't needs as much fixing, and of course green's a different situation since it has a lot of ramp options besides rocks.
xx99Username99xx I use 33 lands w/ bout 5 rocks
Silence Vortex I play 32 in prossh and I feel it's perfect
MTGHawkRox yea, I don't understand why everyone says use 40, that's way too much
Silence Vortex yeah especially since you play rocks ( naturally), ramp spells in green, and sometimes mana dorks
As someone who loves Windgrace, you play 40 lands only in a lands matter deck.
Just yesterday, I had to cut Walking Sponge, Giant Shark, Giant Octopus, and Giant Oyster from my monoblue sea creatures deck to make room for ramp and answers. Not the easiest of decisions when building a theme deck. :(
Here are my 3 biggest Mistakes for commander decks:
Going too big.
Big flashy spells are awesome and Commander is THE format to play them. But not to play ALL of them. If you got no early plays you might weaken your commander significantly.
For example: You play Meren of Clan Nel Thoth. If you haven't played 1-2 Creatures before you play meren, or even worse: Haven't got any creatures into your graveyard before/at the turn you play meren... then you've done something wrong. Sure it's nice to play meren and get an experience counter. But it is also worth it to play meren, end the turn and get a Caustic Caterpillar back. The worst is ending the turn and getting nothing.
Or if you play Ghave as your commander... you need to establish a board, before you play ghave. Ghave is a good turn 5 Commander but only if you can utilize his abilities the same turn. (So you should have 7-8 Mana available) Otherwise you got a 5/5 without abilities sitting there for an entire round.
Also what do you think you can do about early agression? Even Infect?
Relying too much on your good cards.
You know this. You got a strategy in mind, and you got these awesome cards that'll get you there. Be sure they're going to be removed or countered. usually you dont play with idiots. At least when they've seen what your deck does, they know what to look out for. They wont waste a path to exile on just a big Creature of yours, but on your wincons. And as long as your not running a counterheavy blue deck... you're not going to prevent that.
So: Build in multiple winconditions. Every deck I run can win in at least 3-4 Ways plus most of them via Value.
Don't think, that people will take your shit.
Dont get me wrong, it's okay to play heavy controll. It's okay to play obnoxious decks. But do not think people wont hate on these decks, if they see them again. I got one in my playgroup, who likes to play artifact decks (my biggest nemesis deck-type ... just hate it) and his artifact decks are the WORST. He likes to go and destroy lands as early as turn 3/4. 1 Mana per Land. (He can turn anything into an artifact and turn any artifact into an artifactcreature basepower and toughness equal manacost, which is 0/0 on a land). He did this once and won this game. Since then, whenever he gets out this deck, I and others on the playgroup, will hate on him.
His mistake is: He thought this would never happen. He is always pissed, when we destroy his entire gameplan and/or winoptions. He was especially pissed when I resolved a merciless eviction, targeting artifacts after he had build an impressive board state with darkstellforge.
So remember: Either play heavy controll or whatever strategy you like. But don't think people wont remember it. And if it's build to piss them off, they'll take revenge.
this is my break down on deck building for me
38 lands
10 mana ramp
10 draw
5 wraths
5 removal
1 artifact / enchantment removal
1 graveyard hate
30 theme of deck.
give or take on a few of these things.
I don’t know if anyone will read this but another good advise is that your deck shouldn’t be dependent on your commander.
Slivers are the jack of all trades i rarely have problems with casting them heck i managed to win a game with only 3 to 4 lands all because of how versatile they are
I play 33 lands and 5 rocks in my mizzix deck, and I'm still getting flooded more often then screwed.
I run 32 lands? But my highest cmc is Dig through time, the majority of my deck is 2 drop.
The title: three biggest mistakes
Me reading it: three best mistakes.
I have issues
i play the 39 40 20 rule. 39 lands 40 cards in theme (combo pieces, equips for voltron, tribals etc) and 20 answers card advantage etc
i play 37 land 10 rocks normally but most of my decks curve at 3 with only 6 5 drops max 3-4 6 drops max and only a max of 2 7+ drops i like to have low to the ground strategies myself though
I always aim for 36 land and 5 rock. Or 8 rock with cantrip. For "Answer" All my commander has at least 2 answer to Artifact/Enchantment, None-targetted removal and anti graveyard. Oh and at least one "destroy target land"
my biggest problem when building commander decks is finding enough cards to put in it. I always go for between 36 and 40 lands and never have any issues with mana
One of biggest mistake people often do is focus their deck too much on their commander.. so when their commander gets killed/countered/neutralized they just can't do anything..
Yeah, that happens a lot, it was more important back when ur commander could get tucked away... still really important because of hate cards that can turn off the commander.
My typical commander game:
0) Turn 1-4 i play stuff incl my commander.
1) Im behind on mana around turn 4
2) my commander is removed at turn 5.
3) Im empty handed, or heckbent, at turn 7
4) I try to claw my way back in the game during turn 8-9, by top decking or replaying my commander using all my mana because of commander tax.
5) Im knocked out at turn 10.
If you would post a list I’d be happy 2 help you if you want!
I'd love to have those cartoon arts in the videos in a playmat