Calvin Evans check out Sloppy Mechanics channel on TH-cam, he shows you which program to buy and step by step on changing ignition, fuel tables everything...and it works I bough HP Tuners and I’m not the best but I can make it work because of Matt at Sloppy
I wish I had a Time Machine, I would drop off a set of any LS heads off at Packard and Studebaker in 1950. Just to see if they would still be around today.
Just built a 408CI out of a 6.0 liter with a 235 Trickflow cathedrals that are ported and port matched to a LSXRT truck intake manifold that also has all the runners ported. Motor made well over 600 hp on an engine dyno with a smaller cam and a fantastic torque curve.
@@richardholdener1727 I'm doing arp everything forged pistons and 12-1 compression ly6 what's your opinion it's in a 2000 rcsb sierra so I want torque lol and e85
awesome. I asked for this comparison mainly looking at the L92 heads on a 6.0 and richard makes a video. you truly help out so many people with these videos. I watched them all.
Thankyou Mr Holdener!!!!!! That was some fantastic data, and lots of hard work!!!! Also Sir, thankyou for presenting hard factual data that is not skewed by big money advertising dollars like most magazines.
Love the videos. Cant wait to see what my 6.0L tsp tsunami cammed , cnc ported 799 heads with a cleaned up dorman ls2 does in my car! Hoping to have a fun weekend cruiser in my chevelle!
Hey Richard,I’ve seen this video before but didn’t remember it.This is a very good cylinder head comparison,can’t believe the 706 does so well on a 6.0!!I would like to know why GM decided to put the rec port on truck motors??Obviously have way lower torque below 3000 where they run 99 % while driving.Watched your latest last night blower verse’s turbo live.Good to talk about the newbies comments and doing your own research and not slamming them for uneducated questions and comments.Your channel is by far the best on engine testing and why this or that does better or not the best.Thanks so much 🙏🙏🙏🙏🤓
The 706 heads were impressive. I have a Silverado SS with a slightly smaller cam than you ran and 706 heads so it should be a fun truck when it’s done.
I back you up 100% on how you say cams are cams they're not prejudice to rectangle or oval I'm a engine builder for many years with a shops full of just about any and every tool we can think of the measuring airflow to dyno you get the idea and I'm tired of these young kids thinking certain cams are for turbos certain cams are for heads they won't learn till they get older thanks Richard I'm sure a few people pay attention
I'm so glad I found your videos when searching about ls swap. Since I first started watch I've picked up a junkyard 2005 lq4 for 273$ today I picked up some 799 heads for 170 never dreamed it could be this cheap for power. I always thought you had to be rich to make big power
I have those GenX 225's and a Fast 102 intake on a 9.65:1 427 with an F1a. Everyone in the shop that dyno-tuned my car was talking about how my torque numbers where unexpectedly very high. I thought that was pretty cool considering they see one car after another on the dyno and know about what to expect out of a set-up.
Ya know. I work at a race shop myself doing soley ls stuff. Im always impressed what a cam only boost car picks up with the genx heads. That and how much lsa cars love e85 😂
Bring that Trickflow is always out of stock I am just going to have the factory LS3 heads worked over and calm it a day.Thank you for all of these videos.They are the best!❤️
I think a 706 head with a high velocity porting job and fully radiused seats and shaved a little for a compression boost would be a great "factory" setup I think you cam choice 231/239 would be optimal...
@Robert Ambrose I honestly prefer the stock 317s. They are identical to 243s with larger chambers. Mill the heads .20 and go with a shim head gasket and they will make the same power as 243s but are stock on the lq4/lq9s.
@@michaelangelo8001 it's all about how the car drives. If you look at a dyno printout and ignore the curve while just looking at whatever 'peak HP' it just shows you don't know how to read a dyno sheet and don't even understand the main benefits of aftermarket cylinder heads.
The 706 heads ported and polished with bigger valves outflow the 243 heads. I think I am going that route with my lq4 since I would rather have the low end torque for towing and all around driving.
Thanks Richard for the info. Seems like im going with an LS2 since an LS3 is just expensive to get. Good to know that with these upgrades it will get me bewteen 400 to 500 HP which is where i want to be.
I'd like to see the trick flow against some cheap Patriot heads 225cc 317 s with 72cc Chambers 2.05 valves at 28 lb of boost. It'd be interesting to see the difference. I think we may be surprised. May be able to run a little more timing with the big Chambers. Thanks again these comparisons are great
If you do the higher flow heads then you should also test with a lower duration cam, try to keep same lift just shave 10-20deg off duration. Should work like your favorite 351 boss small block. :-)
Love your videos! I’m preparing to build up my L76 in my 2008 G8 and your videos convinced me to go factory heads, rocker trunnions upgrade, sloppy stage 2 cam and FAST LSXR 102 intake with 102big mouth TB. I will add fluid damper harmonic balancer and Vigilante 2800 stall converter. I want 600 hp NA, but I know I won’t get there without losing a lot of low end torque and I don’t want that. Thanks for all your time spent making these videos!
Did you ever end up doing it to your G8? I also have a G8 that I am saving up for the engine build and figuring out what would get me to or past 600 NA
@@clueless4wat322 The engine is complete and I am having it installed now. I will have to wait and see what the chassis dyno tells me. I decided to make some changes to it so it looks stock under the hood. Also, I am building another LS3 for my daughters 89 Trans Am GTA and I will be going for more HP with it!
I might try augmenting the cathedrals with long turn radius enlargement with some more duration on the stick, also turns small valves into big ones for no valve train mass increase.
Wow my ly6 heads are better then I thought! Thanks a lot brother! 👍🏻 Loving your channel man! Gonna have to dig through here and see if you have any NA cam comparisons for ly6 truck upgrade 😎
Thank you for taking the time to do all of these test so we can actually see what numbers all these combos put down also I'm trying to build a 6.0 for pulling I would like massive torque down low I dont see a video of that its mainly horsepower
Ya it be neat to see really high flow rec port heads with a big cam and see what kinda high rpm power can be made. I was waiting for a hit on the bag to emphisise 'best bang' or more snap or somthin haha. Nice, keep it up👍
Excellent Advice Richard I’m about to do a LS conversion on Porsche 928 with the 6.0 engine and you have so much knowledge to offer✅ I’m not looking for high hp just reliability,which I haven’t had sadly Can’t be those GM engines✅ Many thanks Frank
Why is everytime i have a thought thinking of a combo or engine and wondering if there is a video and sure enough there always is (extremely in depth also) and if there isnt one there always seems to be one posted right after i look lol. Heavy bag holdener knows what i want!!!
Please do a regular early LS1 found in Camaro's. They seem to get the least amount of love and want to see how well it could do with its stock heads followed by a few pairs of different castings and a CNC aftermarket casting to round it off.
I bought a fully rebuilt 6.0L with Rec port heads already on it and a ls3 intake so I’m going to upgrade the valve springs and throw the 469 cam in it but man I really want those 225 heads and the fast intake for the extra power.
He never seems to try a set of ported or aftermarket 823 (LS3) heads to test against the aftermarket cathedral heads. My 823 heads had a little porting done and increased flow 50 cfm on exhaust and 40 cfm on intake. I'd like to see the comparison. Kinda like when (anybody) does a comparison of a 351 windsor and a 351 Cleveland, they always use aftermarket heads on the windsor (because it would fail miserably against the Cleveland stock for stock). I want to see fully stock except for cam/spring upgrade on both and then same with a cylinder head upgrade with whatever they want for windsor and CHI head for Cleveland.
I'm building a 5.3 with PRC ported 862 heads, a BTR Stage 2 cam, Fast LSXRT 102 and new rods and Pistons to bump the compression from 9.5 to around 10.5 should be a decent combo
I'm building a 5.3 with 862 heads also. Sum 8715 cam, and widened ring gaps on stock gen 3 rotating assembly. Planning on doing bowl work, springs, and seats cleaned up/valves cut and nothing more to the heads. What's the specs on that BTR cam and are you boosting it?
@@lucysmith4242 The BTR Stage 2 is 212/218@50with .553/.553 lift and 262/268 and a 113 LSA mad. Centerline of 111 and down the road I put. S475 or PTE7675 on it it's going in a 1967 C20 on 33s.
Great video! I’m going to pick up my 823’s from the machine shop tomorrow. Gonna ask about welding up the chamber to make em smaller. Heads are going on an LS2 with a stage 2 LS3 cam
@@richardholdener1727 the engine had 10.9 CR with 243’s. What do you think the CR will be with the 70cc 823’s? May use .015 gaskets as long as there’s no valve contact
I just drove my buddy's 2005 GMC Sierra 1500HD with a 6.0 the other day and I complemented him on how well the truck drove and made power, thinking it was a 4.8 or a 5.3, but it was a well behaved easy driving truck in bone stock form.
That would be awesome! There are so many companies making different versions of rocker arms out of aluminum and steel. Then their is the trunnion upgrade.
Richard, seems like the cure for the factory rec port head loss of torque down low would be to install a F-1A-94 or S475. That will fix the torque issue, everything is better with boost!
As always I really enjoy your videos. It really is hard not to learn something from them. Your comparisons are more realistically what I and some others want to know. Questions you answer for me are related to the old fashioned risk rewards thoughts. In short will the extra money I spent for a better head give me a realistic gain in power or am I looking at 5-15 horsepower for $200-400 set of heads. More if you are considering the trick flow heads. Thanks for the videos. Keep them coming and I’ll keep learning from you.
they will make more than 500 hp-a fast would have improved power, as would more compression, but it is time to start thinking about more cylinder head-maybe porting
I just wiped the cam in my gen 1 small block .600/.625 was able to go up in lift due to duration and going to 110 ls instead of the 108 . reassembling now it's in a street rod .I hope it's what the tech guy at Herbert performance told me it would be.ill let ya know in a few days when I get to make a few digs
This is the video I have been waiting for. I have a set of 799’s and 862’s laying around. With some hand porting e.g. bowl work and port matching do you think 706/862 heads would match 799 on the top end
@@richardholdener1727 With the higher compression of the ported 706 heads, do you think they'll maintain the higher overall tq curve, while still matching the tfs 225s on the top end? In other words, best of both worlds for cheap?
Got some 706 heads for my gen 4 6.0. Can’t wait to port them and get them on the truck! Just trying to figure out what a good tow cam would be then it’s game on
I really think compression matters most for your non stall converter upgrade guys. Ideally I'd like to see the ultimate in internet hype set ups. Ss2 cam Dorman ls6 intake and milled 799 heads and 6.0! I bet it rocks socks all day long
Im the Antipo Dean Ford guy on the Holden ER channel that does the most amazing dyno Emergency Resus on junker LS engines Yeah. And its good fellas! Um just a little note. Richard did a few really exceptional Boss 302 and Boss 351 dyno writeups in two seperate publications. Those engines dynoed within a few horsepower of each other, but the rpm peak with similar cam durations was shifted way up on the better breathing but smaller 302. When adding heads with another 50 cfm at full lift, its like taking capacity away and makes the engine more cammy with a stronger power peak and torque hump off idle to a period where it comes on the cam. For this reason, adding the really good after market LS TFS or better heads in the 350 cfm range, its better to target a milder cam duration. Chevy Gen 1 283-302-307-327-350 's taught us what a truly lumpy cam a Duntov 30-70 was on the smaller fuellie headed engines. So did those funny Limeys with early Mini Coopers and the various 970, 1070 and 1275 engines with really high flow heads....they always downgraded cam duration even on the bigger engines. Point is 50 cfm extra doesnt make a "lost torque" engine if the 50 thou figures and at lash durations are dropped back 5 or 10 degrees. As another word play on HoldenER. Holden in Australia won big with 205 cfm fuelie headed 327 and 350 Chev engines in the local 1968 and 1969 endurance racer Monaro GTS coupes. Ford responded with 351 Clevelands with 265 to 275 cfm heads and Ķ code style solid lifter 310 degree cams for 340 hp net. Ford quickly dropped duration to 300 degrees and got 10 hp more power and better torque. Even though its a Ford story, lesson is...Dont over cam your LS duration wise if its got very good peak flow readings. EFi engines can cope with most of the changes, but extra good attitional cylinder head flow is best dealt with by cam event. Peak power rpm management is not just done by LSA. People say vary overlap...its not that. Youve gotta drag the peaks for power and torque down to where they were with the 275 to 315 cfm heads. Adding ~50 cfm flow always requires downward duration cam revision to enjoy the flow increases. Not talking Boosted engines. Ive used exactly 50 cfm better flowing heads on my two 350 LT1 style engines. On a mustang dyno, they ran better rwhp figures with a more modern 295 degree at lash high intensity 525 thou lift hydraulic than the 326 duration at lash 360 - 365hp solid cam with less lift. A powerfull Lesson for all of us.
I would love to see a comparison of TFS Rec port heads vs GM Performance CNC LS3 heads (part# 88958758) on a 6.0l or even a 408 stroker using the same 459 Cam. I want to see if those TFS heads are worth the big difference in price. I'm sure many people are wondering the same thing. Please try to perform this comparison! Thanks @Richard Holdener!
I was running 1.52 sixty foot/mid to high 10's with a 4.100 stroke .030 over GTO ls2 block 418CID. GMPP ported(cheep) ls3 heads same cam you have. It liked 7100 rpm. 11.7 compression. Cam was 235/250 114 specked for 93oct. Stock ls3 intake/big mouth 92 Tb(cheep). Very inexpensive build for the power. Was reliable as well with Moral short travel lifters. 98 T/A 4L60 4:10 Moser 9" 3600 Yank. A good test would have been mid length runners in a Fast 102 w/102 Tb.
As always awesome video great information but id like to see say a set of AFR rec. port heads on the dyno vs the trick flow cathedral ports. Then a stock intake on the trick flows as we know the fast intake makes great power with cathedral ports but will cost u almost as much as a set of heads lol!! Also maybe use a fast intake on the AFR rec ports do a stock manifold and a fast on both sets of heads. O ya might just as well throw a set of ported GM rec ports for us guys that like to get the die grinder out lol!! Great work as always keep doing what ur doing best stuff on TH-cam. Thanks Josh Gessinger
What about the 706 heads with the battery symbol cracking. Not reliable enough. You can pressure test them, and torque them on and the can crack and leak. Expensive fix. Great content, thanks alot.
Hey Richard. Thanks for the videos buddy, keep em coming! I love the way that comp cams 54-459-11 works in that 6.0. I have a full bolt ons, stock long block, 5.7 LS6 with 6 speed manual (2005 CTS-V) as a daily. Do you think that cam would work well in my car. I like a loopy idle and high rpm power. Thanks again Richard!!
@@richardholdener1727 - was that covered in one of your previous vids? I've watched them all but I can't remember that specific combo (I'm also looking to do exactly this).
Even though I’m a month late to the party, lol, this was perfect. I’m literally pulling 243’s off my LS2 vette for some factory 823’s I had laying around.. Milled .020 with a .040 head gasket to bring compression to almost factory 10.9:1 with a cam swap 22x/23x on a 114.. hoping around 470 wheel in a M6 car. I literally had all the parts laying around which is why I’m doing this combination..
Hi Richard love the info you gather and share. I'm a gm guy myself and have built 350 based small blocks for what seems like for ever.im currently exploring the realm of oldsmobile engines. I'd love to see you test the 350 400 and 455. My current olds is a W31 clone engine with a 308 cam and a set of 7a , little a, there are two7a heads distinguished by the size of the A height next to the 7. It's got a proform 4160 750 Holley and a set of headman super comp long tubes.im going to put a 6AL and wires on it from msd. It's a healthy little brute lol. I'd love to see what or how boost would effect the block integrity? I've heard olds have main webbing issues in certain years and oiling issues. I've watched your Pontiac and Buick vids love the enthusiasm btw. Please get a 68 to 72 olds engine and flog it for us olds folks
Thanks again Richard, can you show us the different limitations of valve springs stock/conical/beehive/dual springs on a few different camshafts please? At what rpm does valve float/bounce occur? Does the extra seat pressure reduce net hp noticeably?
Have you ever tested a Pontiac 421 HO? My granddad tells me his 1967 Pontiac Catalina 2+2 with the 421 and 4 speed was the fastest car in town in it's day. He said it had 3" dual exhaust from the factory and was faster than a 1969 SS 396 Camaro
I always found that a good set of heads are the way to go on a na motor . . Things have changed a lot in motor design . I really like to build a 6.0 motor . Maybe a boosted motor .
Would love to see a 6.0 with ported rec port heads at 8000 rpm, 12.0:1 comp and E85. Would sound amazing and yet would still get rekt by a 4.8L with boost! LOL
Why would you bother with 12:1 for e85? That's pump fuel compression on a rec port. I would do at least 13.5:1 minimum, if not 14:1, if I were to bother with e85 on an n/a setup firstly and there is a lot of n/a cars out there with similar set-ups that will spank turbo 4.8s.😕
I'm just saying not in every situation but if you've been around cars longer than 10 mins you'd know a) you can't get near 1000hp to the pavement in 99% of cars b) dyno figures =/= ET times and c) overall combo is more important than anything, I've seen strokers with twin turbos running flat 12s for long enough to know you need a lot of top end to make up for 2 sec+ 60 footers. Obviously if you cherry pick the argument you can make it sound really ridiculous but the fact still remains there are 4.8 turbos that would not be able run quicker over the 1/4 mile than what n/a 6l cars have and that's pretty hard to refute.
@@richardholdener1727 I have heard from a buddy who used to work in the gm performance division and was told that 706 with the valve size of the 799/243 would have the same flow at a higher compression. I don't know if that is true, just what he said.
@@lucasmullins5100 more of a is the diy work to upgrade valves worth it test. Now I know most don't have the tools but some of use have a mill and other tools that could make it happen.
I have been building this build for a couple years. It is the best build for a 6.0 add lighter valves and better valve train components on ported and polished heads and you get 600 every time. About the same price as a new ls3.
Sorry Richard, old thread here I know. 706 heads on a LQ9 is like 11.5:1 compression. Isn't that a little high for a daily driven truck? Would love to have seen the 799s on a LQ9 with a TBSS intake & BTR Stg 2 truck cam.
Not exactly the same but I had 706 heads on an LQ4 in an 02 Escalade (broke two pistons and put in dished) It was so snappy. Off the throttle it would put you in the seat, but around 5500 or so it would fall off
Not exactly the same but I had 706 heads on an LQ4 in an 02 Escalade (broke two pistons and put in dished) It was so snappy. Off the throttle it would put you in the seat, but around 5500 or so it would fall off
Man honestly some of these factory heads with some port work is hard to beat right now I’m running a set of profilers and I love them I’m also running methanol some not sure what gas would run but on the dyno mine made 2357 and had some left but I have a tkm427 with twin precision 88s I was thinking about going to just one turbo but man the power she makes is awesome.
I'd really like to see a video of you tuning an engine to make max power. I don't care if it's 90minutes I will watch.
Same
Yep
The chassis Dyno shop people will come after his hide if he shared the dark arts of EFI wizardry with the masses.
Calvin Evans check out Sloppy Mechanics channel on TH-cam, he shows you which program to buy and step by step on changing ignition, fuel tables everything...and it works I bough HP Tuners and I’m not the best but I can make it work because of Matt at Sloppy
Agreed
I wish I had a Time Machine, I would drop off a set of any LS heads off at Packard and Studebaker in 1950.
Just to see if they would still be around today.
you better drop off the casting dyes and prints and tooling to reproduce them too.
UperhalgalgUperhalgalgklk
@@gradoisx2348 Packard Could easily reverse engineer it
Just built a 408CI out of a 6.0 liter with a 235 Trickflow cathedrals that are ported and port matched to a LSXRT truck intake manifold that also has all the runners ported. Motor made well over 600 hp on an engine dyno with a smaller cam and a fantastic torque curve.
Doing the same now. Need the best TF heads to produce 6 and some change HP/TQ
Hell yeah I'm in the process of getting stuff together for a budgetish 6.0 perfect timing Richard you are the man
Same lol this channel is awesome
Same here, just got a Sloppy SS2 cam , already have rec port heads.
As am I! Lq4 have 317's and 799 heads. Not sure which way to go
799
@@richardholdener1727 I'm doing arp everything forged pistons and 12-1 compression ly6 what's your opinion it's in a 2000 rcsb sierra so I want torque lol and e85
awesome. I asked for this comparison mainly looking at the L92 heads on a 6.0 and richard makes a video. you truly help out so many people with these videos. I watched them all.
Richard’s imitation of motor noise is so much cooler than the actual dyno test 😂
WAIT TIL I GO FULL VTEC!
Thankyou Mr Holdener!!!!!! That was some fantastic data, and lots of hard work!!!! Also Sir, thankyou for presenting hard factual data that is not skewed by big money advertising dollars like most magazines.
Hard to beat the price of OEM "LS3" heads vs aftermarket heads.
Love the videos. Cant wait to see what my 6.0L tsp tsunami cammed , cnc ported 799 heads with a cleaned up dorman ls2 does in my car! Hoping to have a fun weekend cruiser in my chevelle!
Great vid! Hardest working man on TH-cam
Appreciate it!
How about GM CNC heads on this test???
Hey Richard,I’ve seen this video before but didn’t remember it.This is a very good cylinder head comparison,can’t believe the 706 does so well on a 6.0!!I would like to know why GM decided to put the rec port on truck motors??Obviously have way lower torque below 3000 where they run 99 % while driving.Watched your latest last night blower verse’s turbo live.Good to talk about the newbies comments and doing your own research and not slamming them for uneducated questions and comments.Your channel is by far the best on engine testing and why this or that does better or not the best.Thanks so much 🙏🙏🙏🙏🤓
Doing a Silverado SS build. Perfect timing
The 706 heads were impressive. I have a Silverado SS with a slightly smaller cam than you ran and 706 heads so it should be a fun truck when it’s done.
What Cam did you go with? I have an LQ4 with 300k miles and a pair or 706 heads, not sure what cam would be nice yet affordable.
I back you up 100% on how you say cams are cams they're not prejudice to rectangle or oval I'm a engine builder for many years with a shops full of just about any and every tool we can think of the measuring airflow to dyno you get the idea and I'm tired of these young kids thinking certain cams are for turbos certain cams are for heads they won't learn till they get older thanks Richard I'm sure a few people pay attention
I would love to see you test a set of RCR worked rectangular port heads as well as a set of ported Advanced induction 243’s please.
I'm so glad I found your videos when searching about ls swap. Since I first started watch I've picked up a junkyard 2005 lq4 for 273$ today I picked up some 799 heads for 170 never dreamed it could be this cheap for power. I always thought you had to be rich to make big power
I would like to see some CNC ported/milled rec port heads or even some aftermarket rec ports.
I have those GenX 225's and a Fast 102 intake on a 9.65:1 427 with an F1a. Everyone in the shop that dyno-tuned my car was talking about how my torque numbers where unexpectedly very high. I thought that was pretty cool considering they see one car after another on the dyno and know about what to expect out of a set-up.
dam that set up sounds like a beast... do you know what it put down NA ?
Ya know. I work at a race shop myself doing soley ls stuff. Im always impressed what a cam only boost car picks up with the genx heads. That and how much lsa cars love e85 😂
That’s a tiny runner for those cubes.
What were your numbers?
@@Ws6Ms I do not know what it put down NA, because I did the build all at once.
So helpful. Working on a 68 Chevelle 6.0L LS Swap and this is super helpful
Bring that Trickflow is always out of stock I am just going to have the factory LS3 heads worked over and calm it a day.Thank you for all of these videos.They are the best!❤️
The ls3 heads needs a bigger cam in my opinion
I think a 706 head with a high velocity porting job and fully radiused seats and shaved a little for a compression boost would be a great "factory" setup I think you cam choice 231/239 would be optimal...
@The Truth about Africa hurts lmao right
@The Truth about Africa hurts let me restate my self for you my brother is a low coefficiency of friction porting job lol...lol
Trick Flow was impressive... I'll bet they have a price to match.
2k for the pair I think
Yup.
@@Ws6Ms Yeah, 2K for 20 horses... I'll pass.
@Robert Ambrose I honestly prefer the stock 317s. They are identical to 243s with larger chambers. Mill the heads .20 and go with a shim head gasket and they will make the same power as 243s but are stock on the lq4/lq9s.
@@michaelangelo8001 it's all about how the car drives. If you look at a dyno printout and ignore the curve while just looking at whatever 'peak HP' it just shows you don't know how to read a dyno sheet and don't even understand the main benefits of aftermarket cylinder heads.
I would also like to see ported 706 heads.
The 706 heads ported and polished with bigger valves outflow the 243 heads. I think I am going that route with my lq4 since I would rather have the low end torque for towing and all around driving.
Closest to my build so far. PRC 317s and pistons for cr with a slightly bigger cam. Looking forward to sending it lol
Thanks Richard for the info. Seems like im going with an LS2 since an LS3 is just expensive to get. Good to know that with these upgrades it will get me bewteen 400 to 500 HP which is where i want to be.
Both 706 & 799 are great when ported and bigger valves though... But great as always... Good info💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
It's time to do some back yard ported oem heads vs cnc aftermarket heads.
we need this !
An interesting test would be to weld up the chambers on the LY6 and re-shape them. De-shroud the valves/bump comp etc.
Bro you teach me everything! This is the best man channel on TH-cam!
So this would make a good argument a set of 862/706 heads w/2.00”/1.55” valves and 225cc runners should be pretty strong. 🤔🤔🤔
Great question. I have the 862 with bigger valves in my tbss (were put on later). And they were ported
properly ported 706 heads work well-not sure on just big valve
I'd like to see the trick flow against some cheap Patriot heads 225cc 317 s with 72cc Chambers 2.05 valves at 28 lb of boost. It'd be interesting to see the difference. I think we may be surprised. May be able to run a little more timing with the big Chambers. Thanks again these comparisons are great
So a set of rec port heads would make a decent amount of power, especially with a bit of polishing!
If you do the higher flow heads then you should also test with a lower duration cam, try to keep same lift just shave 10-20deg off duration. Should work like your favorite 351 boss small block. :-)
A set of cnc cathedral ports and application specific cam from TSP sounds like a winning combo to me.
CNC anything is winning
Love your videos! I’m preparing to build up my L76 in my 2008 G8 and your videos convinced me to go factory heads, rocker trunnions upgrade, sloppy stage 2 cam and FAST LSXR 102 intake with 102big mouth TB. I will add fluid damper harmonic balancer and Vigilante 2800 stall converter. I want 600 hp NA, but I know I won’t get there without losing a lot of low end torque and I don’t want that. Thanks for all your time spent making these videos!
Did you ever end up doing it to your G8? I also have a G8 that I am saving up for the engine build and figuring out what would get me to or past 600 NA
@@clueless4wat322 The engine is complete and I am having it installed now. I will have to wait and see what the chassis dyno tells me. I decided to make some changes to it so it looks stock under the hood. Also, I am building another LS3 for my daughters 89 Trans Am GTA and I will be going for more HP with it!
I might try augmenting the cathedrals with long turn radius enlargement with some more duration on the stick, also turns small valves into big ones for no valve train mass increase.
Great video!
This makes me want to port the 243's on my 6.2 even more XD
Kenneth Whitaker would like to see a shoot out with 799CNC heads vs 823 as cast Please with much respect
just look at the 225 heads vs rec port test-same thing
Awesome video I have the early 6.0 and that has the cast-iron heads on it trying to decide which head's to install. Thanks Richard
Im in the same situation what heads did u end up choosing?
Wow my ly6 heads are better then I thought! Thanks a lot brother! 👍🏻
Loving your channel man! Gonna have to dig through here and see if you have any NA cam comparisons for ly6 truck upgrade 😎
i did truck cams on a 6.0l
hellyeah they are, those are the best LS heads to have besides the LS7 heads
Can you do a video about remote turbos, Showing how exhaust/charge length effect boost and lag? Enjoy your videos!
Thank you for taking the time to do all of these test so we can actually see what numbers all these combos put down also I'm trying to build a 6.0 for pulling I would like massive torque down low I dont see a video of that its mainly horsepower
Ya it be neat to see really high flow rec port heads with a big cam and see what kinda high rpm power can be made. I was waiting for a hit on the bag to emphisise 'best bang' or more snap or somthin haha. Nice, keep it up👍
Have you ever done a comparison between a L33 and LM7, would love to see it. Love you videos, great information.
Or LM4, don't hate.
l33 has more compression and cam
@@richardholdener1727 and better heads?
Excellent Advice Richard
I’m about to do a LS conversion on Porsche 928 with the 6.0 engine and you have so much knowledge to offer✅
I’m not looking for high hp just reliability,which I haven’t had sadly
Can’t be those GM engines✅
Many thanks Frank
love the 928s-with LS power it will be amazing
Why is everytime i have a thought thinking of a combo or engine and wondering if there is a video and sure enough there always is (extremely in depth also) and if there isnt one there always seems to be one posted right after i look lol. Heavy bag holdener knows what i want!!!
Please do a regular early LS1 found in Camaro's. They seem to get the least amount of love and want to see how well it could do with its stock heads followed by a few pairs of different castings and a CNC aftermarket casting to round it off.
I bought a fully rebuilt 6.0L with Rec port heads already on it and a ls3 intake so I’m going to upgrade the valve springs and throw the 469 cam in it but man I really want those 225 heads and the fast intake for the extra power.
He never seems to try a set of ported or aftermarket 823 (LS3) heads to test against the aftermarket cathedral heads. My 823 heads had a little porting done and increased flow 50 cfm on exhaust and 40 cfm on intake. I'd like to see the comparison.
Kinda like when (anybody) does a comparison of a 351 windsor and a 351 Cleveland, they always use aftermarket heads on the windsor (because it would fail miserably against the Cleveland stock for stock). I want to see fully stock except for cam/spring upgrade on both and then same with a cylinder head upgrade with whatever they want for windsor and CHI head for Cleveland.
I'm building a 5.3 with PRC ported 862 heads, a BTR Stage 2 cam, Fast LSXRT 102 and new rods and Pistons to bump the compression from 9.5 to around 10.5 should be a decent combo
I'm building a 5.3 with 862 heads also. Sum 8715 cam, and widened ring gaps on stock gen 3 rotating assembly. Planning on doing bowl work, springs, and seats cleaned up/valves cut and nothing more to the heads. What's the specs on that BTR cam and are you boosting it?
my friend went with a btr stage 3 and barely noticed a difference, he regrets not going to the stage 4
Fun little setup
@@lucysmith4242 The BTR Stage 2 is 212/218@50with .553/.553 lift and 262/268 and a 113 LSA mad. Centerline of 111 and down the road I put. S475 or PTE7675 on it it's going in a 1967 C20 on 33s.
Did he tune it?
Great video! I’m going to pick up my 823’s from the machine shop tomorrow. Gonna ask about welding up the chamber to make em smaller. Heads are going on an LS2 with a stage 2 LS3 cam
Good luck! Changing the size of the chamber cam raise compression but changing chamber design can hurt power or make it detonate
@@richardholdener1727 the engine had 10.9 CR with 243’s. What do you think the CR will be with the 70cc 823’s? May use .015 gaskets as long as there’s no valve contact
I just drove my buddy's 2005 GMC Sierra 1500HD with a 6.0 the other day and I complemented him on how well the truck drove and made power, thinking it was a 4.8 or a 5.3, but it was a well behaved easy driving truck in bone stock form.
All 1500HD's used the 6.0/4L80E combo. There was no other engine/trans options. Most were 3.73 geared.
You should do a rocker arm shoot out. Compare the different sizes to gains on the dyno
That would be awesome! There are so many companies making different versions of rocker arms out of aluminum and steel. Then their is the trunnion upgrade.
use stock rockers with trunion upgrade
@@richardholdener1727 Yeah? With a low lift solid roller??
Richard, seems like the cure for the factory rec port head loss of torque down low would be to install a F-1A-94 or S475. That will fix the torque issue, everything is better with boost!
agreed
I have a lq9 and these parts on a shelf waiting for me.
821 heads milled .20 - .30 and ported
Ls3 intake manifold and arp bolts
Had 706s with a truck cam, going rec port and stg3 LS cam this time. You better be right holdener!!!
the dyno does not lie
As always I really enjoy your videos. It really is hard not to learn something from them. Your comparisons are more realistically what I and some others want to know. Questions you answer for me are related to the old fashioned risk rewards thoughts. In short will the extra money I spent for a better head give me a realistic gain in power or am I looking at 5-15 horsepower for $200-400 set of heads. More if you are considering the trick flow heads. Thanks for the videos. Keep them coming and I’ll keep learning from you.
Moral of the story, 706 heads are good for up to 500hp
There is an actual chart for that. www.hotrod.com/articles/airflow-research-cylinder-power/
@@hendo337 charts show them to be maxed out unless you port them for higher flow.
they will make more than 500 hp-a fast would have improved power, as would more compression, but it is time to start thinking about more cylinder head-maybe porting
Nice you made this video i was asking about a few weeks ago. Thanks richard!
You need to take a look at the ProMaxx ls heads and maybe even test them.
I just wiped the cam in my gen 1 small block .600/.625 was able to go up in lift due to duration and going to 110 ls instead of the 108 . reassembling now it's in a street rod .I hope it's what the tech guy at Herbert performance told me it would be.ill let ya know in a few days when I get to make a few digs
Man o man that 6.0 with 706s and a little turbo in a 3rd gen nova and 3.25 gears would be a great street machine and Daily, probably get great mpg too
This is the video I have been waiting for. I have a set of 799’s and 862’s laying around. With some hand porting e.g. bowl work and port matching do you think 706/862 heads would match 799 on the top end
properly ported 706 will do what the TFS 225s did
@@richardholdener1727 With the higher compression of the ported 706 heads, do you think they'll maintain the higher overall tq curve, while still matching the tfs 225s on the top end? In other words, best of both worlds for cheap?
There is a lot of easy velocity to gain in the rec port heads - basic home porting makes a big difference.
I'm curious how porting to make the port even bigger improves velocity?
@@richardholdener1727 Me too
It would be cool to see a 706 cnc ported head with a valve job go up against these trickflows or other big names.
Got some 706 heads for my gen 4 6.0. Can’t wait to port them and get them on the truck! Just trying to figure out what a good tow cam would be then it’s game on
BTR stage two truck cam will be a good tow cam with those 706
Just got some 823 heads for my 6.0. I'm gonna check piston to valve clearance to see what I have. Then I'm gonna mill them.
I really think compression matters most for your non stall converter upgrade guys. Ideally I'd like to see the ultimate in internet hype set ups. Ss2 cam Dorman ls6 intake and milled 799 heads and 6.0! I bet it rocks socks all day long
that combo make less than the 799 heads on this motor -i tested the ss2 cam on this 6.0L-that video is up
@@richardholdener1727 milled 799 heads?
Can I just say one word? AWESOME 👏👍
Im the Antipo Dean Ford guy on the Holden ER channel that does the most amazing dyno Emergency Resus on junker LS engines Yeah. And its good fellas! Um just a little note. Richard did a few really exceptional Boss 302 and Boss 351 dyno writeups in two seperate publications. Those engines dynoed within a few horsepower of each other, but the rpm peak with similar cam durations was shifted way up on the better breathing but smaller 302. When adding heads with another 50 cfm at full lift, its like taking capacity away and makes the engine more cammy with a stronger power peak and torque hump off idle to a period where it comes on the cam. For this reason, adding the really good after market LS TFS or better heads in the 350 cfm range, its better to target a milder cam duration. Chevy Gen 1 283-302-307-327-350 's taught us what a truly lumpy cam a Duntov 30-70 was on the smaller fuellie headed engines. So did those funny Limeys with early Mini Coopers and the various 970, 1070 and 1275 engines with really high flow heads....they always downgraded cam duration even on the bigger engines. Point is 50 cfm extra doesnt make a "lost torque" engine if the 50 thou figures and at lash durations are dropped back 5 or 10 degrees. As another word play on HoldenER. Holden in Australia won big with 205 cfm fuelie headed 327 and 350 Chev engines in the local 1968 and 1969 endurance racer Monaro GTS coupes. Ford responded with 351 Clevelands with 265 to 275 cfm heads and Ķ code style solid lifter 310 degree cams for 340 hp net. Ford quickly dropped duration to 300 degrees and got 10 hp more power and better torque. Even though its a Ford story, lesson is...Dont over cam your LS duration wise if its got very good peak flow readings. EFi engines can cope with most of the changes, but extra good attitional cylinder head flow is best dealt with by cam event. Peak power rpm management is not just done by LSA. People say vary overlap...its not that. Youve gotta drag the peaks for power and torque down to where they were with the 275 to 315 cfm heads. Adding ~50 cfm flow always requires downward duration cam revision to enjoy the flow increases. Not talking Boosted engines. Ive used exactly 50 cfm better flowing heads on my two 350 LT1 style engines. On a mustang dyno, they ran better rwhp figures with a more modern 295 degree at lash high intensity 525 thou lift hydraulic than the 326 duration at lash 360 - 365hp solid cam with less lift. A powerfull Lesson for all of us.
I would love to see a comparison of TFS Rec port heads vs GM Performance CNC LS3 heads (part# 88958758) on a 6.0l or even a 408 stroker using the same 459 Cam. I want to see if those TFS heads are worth the big difference in price. I'm sure many people are wondering the same thing. Please try to perform this comparison! Thanks @Richard Holdener!
I was running 1.52 sixty foot/mid to high 10's with a 4.100 stroke .030 over GTO ls2 block 418CID. GMPP ported(cheep) ls3 heads same cam you have. It liked 7100 rpm. 11.7 compression. Cam was 235/250 114 specked for 93oct. Stock ls3 intake/big mouth 92 Tb(cheep). Very inexpensive build for the power. Was reliable as well with Moral short travel lifters. 98 T/A 4L60 4:10 Moser 9" 3600 Yank.
A good test would have been mid length runners in a Fast 102 w/102 Tb.
Those highflow numbers would make for an efficient power plant crazy when a small amount of forced air can make a stupid amount of power
706 heads for the win Alex trebek. For a truck / suv to tow with.
Anything under 500hp the 706 is the clear winner
As always awesome video great information but id like to see say a set of AFR rec. port heads on the dyno vs the trick flow cathedral ports. Then a stock intake on the trick flows as we know the fast intake makes great power with cathedral ports but will cost u almost as much as a set of heads lol!! Also maybe use a fast intake on the AFR rec ports do a stock manifold and a fast on both sets of heads. O ya might just as well throw a set of ported GM rec ports for us guys that like to get the die grinder out lol!!
Great work as always keep doing what ur doing best stuff on TH-cam.
Thanks
Josh
Gessinger
What about the 706 heads with the battery symbol cracking.
Not reliable enough.
You can pressure test them, and torque them on and the can crack and leak.
Expensive fix.
Great content, thanks alot.
I built this exact build of the rec port heads with the comp 469 cam on a 6.0L to put in my c5 corvette I’m thinking she will haul ass after
Hey Richard. Thanks for the videos buddy, keep em coming!
I love the way that comp cams 54-459-11 works in that 6.0.
I have a full bolt ons, stock long block, 5.7 LS6 with 6 speed manual (2005 CTS-V) as a daily. Do you think that cam would work well in my car.
I like a loopy idle and high rpm power.
Thanks again Richard!!
Yeah there giving me the ice to wheelie my car lol
I would love to see in AMC 360 video
I would like to see the stock 317 heads as well. U usually are good about showing base numbers when you start a test.
Very nice. Thx for the video. I've got a nice general direction. Cam intake tune and headers . So maybe 2k ish build.
Your videos are great stuff. I would like to see a video of you walking through a marine/towrig set using a LS stroker.
Could you test the BTR EQUALIZER intake I’m really curious on how it would perform on a boosted application
Would love to see a lq4/ly6 with 706 heads Tbss intake and a truck cam, might just try it myself
we did that with a BTR torque cam
Richard Holdener ok I will rewatch that one! Thanks
@@richardholdener1727 - was that covered in one of your previous vids? I've watched them all but I can't remember that specific combo (I'm also looking to do exactly this).
Even though I’m a month late to the party, lol, this was perfect. I’m literally pulling 243’s off my LS2 vette for some factory 823’s I had laying around.. Milled .020 with a .040 head gasket to bring compression to almost factory 10.9:1 with a cam swap 22x/23x on a 114.. hoping around 470 wheel in a M6 car. I literally had all the parts laying around which is why I’m doing this combination..
Hi Richard love the info you gather and share. I'm a gm guy myself and have built 350 based small blocks for what seems like for ever.im currently exploring the realm of oldsmobile engines. I'd love to see you test the 350 400 and 455. My current olds is a W31 clone engine with a 308 cam and a set of 7a , little a, there are two7a heads distinguished by the size of the A height next to the 7. It's got a proform 4160 750 Holley and a set of headman super comp long tubes.im going to put a 6AL and wires on it from msd. It's a healthy little brute lol. I'd love to see what or how boost would effect the block integrity? I've heard olds have main webbing issues in certain years and oiling issues. I've watched your Pontiac and Buick vids love the enthusiasm btw. Please get a 68 to 72 olds engine and flog it for us olds folks
Thanks again Richard, can you show us the different limitations of valve springs stock/conical/beehive/dual springs on a few different camshafts please? At what rpm does valve float/bounce occur? Does the extra seat pressure reduce net hp noticeably?
Have you ever tested a Pontiac 421 HO? My granddad tells me his 1967 Pontiac Catalina 2+2 with the 421 and 4 speed was the fastest car in town in it's day. He said it had 3" dual exhaust from the factory and was faster than a 1969 SS 396 Camaro
cool cars
I always found that a good set of heads are the way to go on a na motor . . Things have changed a lot in motor design . I really like to build a 6.0 motor . Maybe a boosted motor .
Would love to see a 6.0 with ported rec port heads at 8000 rpm, 12.0:1 comp and E85. Would sound amazing and yet would still get rekt by a 4.8L with boost! LOL
Why would you bother with 12:1 for e85? That's pump fuel compression on a rec port. I would do at least 13.5:1 minimum, if not 14:1, if I were to bother with e85 on an n/a setup firstly and there is a lot of n/a cars out there with similar set-ups that will spank turbo 4.8s.😕
I'm curious how a 650-700 hp na 6.0L beats a 1000-hp turbo 4.8L?
@@richardholdener1727 when the boosted one throws old Rodney out the side of its block half way down the track
@@trixnhoez2964 Haha you are dreaming if you think a big dollar NA engine is going to come anywhere near boosted 4.8.
I'm just saying not in every situation but if you've been around cars longer than 10 mins you'd know a) you can't get near 1000hp to the pavement in 99% of cars b) dyno figures =/= ET times and c) overall combo is more important than anything, I've seen strokers with twin turbos running flat 12s for long enough to know you need a lot of top end to make up for 2 sec+ 60 footers. Obviously if you cherry pick the argument you can make it sound really ridiculous but the fact still remains there are 4.8 turbos that would not be able run quicker over the 1/4 mile than what n/a 6l cars have and that's pretty hard to refute.
can you make a video where you put one of these engines in a pickup and test the performance and mpg?
I think big valve 706 heads would make an interesting comparison to the stock 706. I think it would out perform the 799/243.
Like a TEA or PRC head and stock head what's it worth comparison
ported 706 heads (like the ones I have tested from TEA) are head and shoulders better than stock 799 heads-not sure about changing just the valve size
@@richardholdener1727 I have heard from a buddy who used to work in the gm performance division and was told that 706 with the valve size of the 799/243 would have the same flow at a higher compression. I don't know if that is true, just what he said.
@@lucasmullins5100 more of a is the diy work to upgrade valves worth it test. Now I know most don't have the tools but some of use have a mill and other tools that could make it happen.
@@richardholdener1727 where do you think my TEA ported 317s would fit in this group? They flow 315cfm
I have been building this build for a couple years. It is the best build for a 6.0 add lighter valves and better valve train components on ported and polished heads and you get 600 every time. About the same price as a new ls3.
Sorry Richard, old thread here I know. 706 heads on a LQ9 is like 11.5:1 compression. Isn't that a little high for a daily driven truck? Would love to have seen the 799s on a LQ9 with a TBSS intake & BTR Stg 2 truck cam.
Not exactly the same but I had 706 heads on an LQ4 in an 02 Escalade (broke two pistons and put in dished)
It was so snappy. Off the throttle it would put you in the seat, but around 5500 or so it would fall off
Not exactly the same but I had 706 heads on an LQ4 in an 02 Escalade (broke two pistons and put in dished)
It was so snappy. Off the throttle it would put you in the seat, but around 5500 or so it would fall off
@StationroadRatrods Did they break from detonation or hitting the head ? What fuel were you running?87? 91? E85?
Man honestly some of these factory heads with some port work is hard to beat right now I’m running a set of profilers and I love them I’m also running methanol some not sure what gas would run but on the dyno mine made 2357 and had some left but I have a tkm427 with twin precision 88s I was thinking about going to just one turbo but man the power she makes is awesome.
that's a lot
I wish you showed stock 317 heads. Everyone wants to compare if it’s really worth their time in changing heads.
there is a 317 vs 706 head test up
Same camshaft for all heads is that a good comparison
yes
It would be cool to see a vvt comparison
makes me want to build up my silverado ss engine now
I don't think the ported req port would gain much if anything but if you grade later with some more size and cam little head work won't hurt anyone