@@JamesChurchill Really the only one stupid enough to have 1-based indexing that's semi-widespread is Matlab (and maybe you could argue Fortran too, but I haven't heard many people in the last 30 years going "can you help me with my Fortran program"), and anyone that says Matlab is a real programming language should go right in the bin along with matlab
@@gorak9000 I can think of Lua and R off the top of my head, and I'd say those are reasonably widespread as well. Definitely annoying when switching back and forth between those and a more standard programming language, though.
If I remember your keyed-alike talk correctly, the document specifying the FEO-K1 bitting got amended with a dimensional drawing. Maybe the problem with these two standards is the reason why it got amended.
"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."
That's why it's always best to double check and make sure it works before you sell it. I do it with master keys I cut and sell. I make sure they work before I send them out.
I appreciate the insight into these, as I almost never see them... As in, when I went out on my own, a tubular key cutter was one of the lowest things on my "I should get one of those" list... Eight years later I still don't have one. In the 10 years at the old shop we'd get them MAYBE twice a year, so I did learn to SPP them, just so I wouldn't have to drive back to the shop to get the tubular pick. . In the time I've been on my own, I've gotten ONE call for a tubular lock, and that customer had already ordered new locks from StackOn, so I just needed to unlock the box... I will say though that just because of the heights of the two locks on that box making it hard to get a good SPPing position, I DID buy a tubular pick after that call... I don't know if I'll get enough tubular key unlocks to pay for the pick, but shelling out the money will DEFINATELY save my back should I run into another one of those StackOn boxes...
Lmao. After watching your Tub cutter video I was gonna posit, 'Are the numbers on each gauge the same or one off'= then this video came up. Great explanation and your charts are rather nice looking. Always quality with you- which is why you're so heralded in the community. Cheers.
A few years ago, I needed to make some keys for a couple of radio cabinets, 6 feet tall, 19 inch rack mount. I had several keys that appeared identical, but one would work, one would work sometimes in one lock if you wiggled it and played with it, and the others wouldn't work at all. I finally took the lock out of one of the cabinets and took it to a local locksmith who figured it out. The tooth (I'm sure there is a better name than that) that sticks out of the key was a nonstandard length. The locksmith was able to manually file the tooth to make it work. This was someone's attempt to make a tubular security key and thwart key duplication.
Nice, another useful key to add to my collection, and the knowledge to get the right one not the crappy knockoff. I'll put it next to my CH751 on my keyring, thanks!
Oh you can have that key IF you own a lock with that exact bitting! That closing shot, reminds me of Big Clive Live Jagermunion. A shot of JeagerMeister on the hour dedicated to one of the trades……
This is why cutting your own keys makes more sense. Especially if you are decoding an impressioning tool. If you cut it to the scale you measured and in the direction you took them rather than giving the bitting code to a locksmith who may use the alternative scale/direction. The key style measuring gauges that come with Haoshi/Southord tools are numbered 1-8 (Ace) but are horrid to use so we Tinkercad' a Gem lego brick of our own (having found the ones on thingiverse were crud). We also look to 3d print temporary keys where if you make a mistake you can just print a new one in around 15 mins.
Back in the 70's, when almost all alarms used ACE keys, I had a key cutter on my truck. If you had a good key I could duplicate it perfectly. Cutting to code was considerably more difficult. And around here you need an AZFS for elevators unless you are in the big city. They use a different key.
I guessed wrong depth before the explanation, to me this sounded right as they like to be quick getting them out. I had no idea there was 2 standards created though out the life of the key.
Good Video. My "Red" Brick that came with my Herty Gerty in the wood box is numbered 1-7. I have seen both blue and red bricks in the plastic Herty Gerty boxes, but I suspect they are all Fort. Just cut one and will test tomorrow to see if I learned anything. We actually have a maintenance key (Not FEO-K1) stuck in our elevator waiting on the elevator company to try and remove it. Probably just needs a squirt of Houdini but it's not my elevator and not my key.
One night at Company X headquarters ... Top brass after partying way too hard: A: "No good idea since years." - B: "How about we do everything different than our competitors, like offset numbers, change spacing, rotate the other direction, ... and call it our new 'advanced standard'?" - A: "Great idea! That'll show them how innovative we are. We should probably call our keys 'Yek' while we're at it." If you are so 'lucky' to encounter such glorious ideas in real life: Just shove them out of a window for the sake of humanity. ;)
You know... it almost seems like using a Tubular Pick would be easier than worrying if this FEO-K1 was clockwise, counter-clockwise, or made to the Chicago or Gem standard. It'll also work on any lock, and nearly as fast.
Question... Can You get a "Master Key" for either style lock? Need one for the Business I work for, as the "Locks" has no ID on the outside of the them. Usually, We have to cut into the "Product" to gain access to the lock mechanism...
stuff like this always blows my mind, you would think that the dude that decided to make these to sell them on ebay/amazon would just get one of the locks for a couple $, test it, figure out whats wrong in idk 5-10 minutes, revise, have a working product to sell for years to come, rather then the yolo make a product, throw it out there, it doesn't work, and it will barely sell after a month because people figure out it doesn't work. i just can't wrap my head around going all in on short term profit, when you can have long term profit for something that is a one time investment of 10 minutes of QC and a single $20-30 lock
There are some FEO-K1 *locks* out there that have looser tolerances and which might work with some of these poor keys. Maybe he tested with those, heh.
IIRC, BosnianBill did a vid similar to this, but I think it was Master vs American, and how the bittings between the two were one number off from each other.
layer height and durability, possibly, heh. but if someone cuts a key the wrong way the OTHER way then it's possible to simply kind of trim/grind the front face of the key down a bit
Is it possible the keys are sold kinda like computer pen testing tools? Where they don’t work out of the box to detour some people. As in you have to know how the tool works and modify it just enough for it to be usable. in other words, is it possible to file the head of the Amazon key down one pin depth and the key be usable?
I don't see that GEM decoder on RTT or the github. (Only finding the other one in the usual STL searches.) Is there one available, or do I have to draw up my own?
Hello! Did you do a collab with another YT channel that no longer exists on youtube? I'm trying to refind this channel as it had high quality long form video. Cannot remember the name exactly but i think it was 'covert' something or other. Your name seems very familiar when im trying to recall this channel. Any help would be appreciated
i ordered a tublular key for my gun cabinet from ultimate security device in nj for a hmc16940. after several weeks waiting for it, it did not turn the lock. it looks like the cuts were too deep. mine and the "replacement" are both are chicago keys. i called and emailied for help and they never got back to me. can i just file the end of the key, to shorten it?
Will it work if you just jiggle the crap out of it? Also, that other tubular video when? Curious to see how they managed to implement the different keys
By chance do you know where I can get a Herty Herty? I’m sure there aren’t any new ones anywhere, I wouldn’t mind a old/ used one I just need one for my truck almost more than anything else
So, I'm curious to know what those other keys were that we saw on that key ring. I saw what looked like a mailbox key, a car key, a handcuff key, and then a bunch of others that I didn't recognize. Is this your EDC set of pen test keys?
I noted 2 lock combs, 2 jiggler keys, the FEO-K1 (of course), a Chicago Elevator key, A CH751, the ultimate handcuff key, and what is likely a 1284x (Ford Fleet key)
I wondered this too. I'm just a hobbyist, but I'd think if you put tension on the lock and jiggled it it seems like it might open as you'd eventually get all the pins lined up at the correct depth. I was able to do that with a standard pin and tumbler lock with a restricted blank- I just impressioned the key and cut the new key out of a hacksaw blade and jiggled it. However, with the tubular lock you'd have to do it multiple times as the pins would presumably fall after every 1/8th rotation.
That S&W key doesn't look standard; However, it looks a lot like the one on my keyring, on my wife's keyring, inside my belt, on my shoelaces and in most of my trouser hems. That's only come in handy twice that wasn't "fun" times but it was worth every cent of the Dollar and a thousand-fold of the Dremel time.
@@ZiggityPow Agreed, every good, sane, sober, moral and prudent person should! Add to the required watchlist: "This Key is Your Key, This Key is My Key" I've made or helped to make at least 40. It's probably time that I should order a few more. Thanks for the spur to do so.
ive been slightly diving into the rfid keytags that can be used to permit access to certain places, but then the company, without my involvement i will add, had in incident, so im not continuiing with that avenue for proof of concept, or for testing, so ill buy my own, but do you have any tips, or info about diving down that rabbit hole, will say i havent done much if any research yet..
Sure TSSA has the bitting code on their website. I thought that was pretty cool...until I went to model and print my own key and learned about all the different flavors of tubular locks...
great video. I do have a question though. When you look up the code for a lock and it says the code is clock wise on lock does that mean it would be contour clock wise on the key when you cut it?
Nothing fishier than a professional faceless man asking for more faces… lol newb here contemplating leaving career field out of boredom and using a few skills that I thought I would never have to use again… is it really a crime if you never get caught? Yes… yes it is for those of you with no compass.
true true. and i suppose if you were to pull it out *just* enough and perfectly flatly and also if the bit on the top of the key were trimmed down so it fit in the existing race, it *might* also work.
Fill out the form and get an appropriate pair of passport photos, take those, your proof of identity and citizenship, and money to the post office and apply.
Do I downvote you for drinking (I assume Scotch) from a plastic cup? Serious rule violation buddy. Maybe report you to Scotland Yard (prob their jurisdiction).
Like learning a new computer language, one of the first questions you have to answer is whether the arrays are zero based or one based.
And if it's 1 based you throw it in the bin. :D
@@JamesChurchill Really the only one stupid enough to have 1-based indexing that's semi-widespread is Matlab (and maybe you could argue Fortran too, but I haven't heard many people in the last 30 years going "can you help me with my Fortran program"), and anyone that says Matlab is a real programming language should go right in the bin along with matlab
The answer is yes.
Followed shortly thereafter by which type of object oriented paradigms are being followed...
@@gorak9000 I can think of Lua and R off the top of my head, and I'd say those are reasonably widespread as well. Definitely annoying when switching back and forth between those and a more standard programming language, though.
If I remember your keyed-alike talk correctly, the document specifying the FEO-K1 bitting got amended with a dimensional drawing. Maybe the problem with these two standards is the reason why it got amended.
"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."
That’s a nice lockbox. It’d be a shame if someone were to… open it…
😁👍
That's why it's always best to double check and make sure it works before you sell it. I do it with master keys I cut and sell. I make sure they work before I send them out.
Honestly, if you don’t, you’re doing yourself a disservice! (Hey DALP!)
@@RubberBanned I agree 1000% mate. It's not a hard thing to do to make sure the product works. How are you doing mate.
I appreciate the insight into these, as I almost never see them... As in, when I went out on my own, a tubular key cutter was one of the lowest things on my "I should get one of those" list... Eight years later I still don't have one. In the 10 years at the old shop we'd get them MAYBE twice a year, so I did learn to SPP them, just so I wouldn't have to drive back to the shop to get the tubular pick. .
In the time I've been on my own, I've gotten ONE call for a tubular lock, and that customer had already ordered new locks from StackOn, so I just needed to unlock the box... I will say though that just because of the heights of the two locks on that box making it hard to get a good SPPing position, I DID buy a tubular pick after that call...
I don't know if I'll get enough tubular key unlocks to pay for the pick, but shelling out the money will DEFINATELY save my back should I run into another one of those StackOn boxes...
This was informative as well as the videos that DALP has done so far
Just to make tubular keys that much more confusing, they have done this. Thanks for this information, cheers
Lmao. After watching your Tub cutter video I was gonna posit, 'Are the numbers on each gauge the same or one off'= then this video came up. Great explanation and your charts are rather nice looking. Always quality with you- which is why you're so heralded in the community. Cheers.
A few years ago, I needed to make some keys for a couple of radio cabinets, 6 feet tall, 19 inch rack mount. I had several keys that appeared identical, but one would work, one would work sometimes in one lock if you wiggled it and played with it, and the others wouldn't work at all. I finally took the lock out of one of the cabinets and took it to a local locksmith who figured it out. The tooth (I'm sure there is a better name than that) that sticks out of the key was a nonstandard length. The locksmith was able to manually file the tooth to make it work. This was someone's attempt to make a tubular security key and thwart key duplication.
I love the red Solo-style shot cup, that's pretty great.
Nice, another useful key to add to my collection, and the knowledge to get the right one not the crappy knockoff. I'll put it next to my CH751 on my keyring, thanks!
They should have specified a 0 as one of the bittings for the FEO-K1. This would indicate it is using the GEM standard.
Very informative, thank you!
Thank you bro great info need a win here my friend
had similar issues with a 16120 key off amazon, was cut correctly but the key itself was too thick and would therefore not fit in the lock
This video is a GEM 😀
Well now i know that I need to learn a whole lot more about tubular locks and how they work with the bitting
What a mess.. 😅 Thanks for the insight Dev!
Oh you can have that key IF you own a lock with that exact bitting! That closing shot, reminds me of Big Clive Live Jagermunion. A shot of JeagerMeister on the hour dedicated to one of the trades……
Fort is also a CompX company, as is national, timberline, and chicago...
Very informative.. thank you.. explains a lot
i'm an old IT nerd moving into cybersecurity, but I really enjoy your videos.
something tells me the lockpicking lawyer had a "hand " in this production. lol
This is why cutting your own keys makes more sense. Especially if you are decoding an impressioning tool. If you cut it to the scale you measured and in the direction you took them rather than giving the bitting code to a locksmith who may use the alternative scale/direction. The key style measuring gauges that come with Haoshi/Southord tools are numbered 1-8 (Ace) but are horrid to use so we Tinkercad' a Gem lego brick of our own (having found the ones on thingiverse were crud). We also look to 3d print temporary keys where if you make a mistake you can just print a new one in around 15 mins.
Thanks mate 💯
Back in the 70's, when almost all alarms used ACE keys, I had a key cutter on my truck. If you had a good key I could duplicate it perfectly. Cutting to code was considerably more difficult. And around here you need an AZFS for elevators unless you are in the big city. They use a different key.
I guessed wrong depth before the explanation, to me this sounded right as they like to be quick getting them out. I had no idea there was 2 standards created though out the life of the key.
Hooligan gets my vote for being a stand up locksmith with a great set of common keys.
Good Video. My "Red" Brick that came with my Herty Gerty in the wood box is numbered 1-7. I have seen both blue and red bricks in the plastic Herty Gerty boxes, but I suspect they are all Fort. Just cut one and will test tomorrow to see if I learned anything. We actually have a maintenance key (Not FEO-K1) stuck in our elevator waiting on the elevator company to try and remove it. Probably just needs a squirt of Houdini but it's not my elevator and not my key.
One night at Company X headquarters ... Top brass after partying way too hard:
A: "No good idea since years." - B: "How about we do everything different than our competitors, like offset numbers, change spacing, rotate the other direction, ... and call it our new 'advanced standard'?" - A: "Great idea! That'll show them how innovative we are. We should probably call our keys 'Yek' while we're at it."
If you are so 'lucky' to encounter such glorious ideas in real life: Just shove them out of a window for the sake of humanity. ;)
Seriously. The second standard is different for the sake of being different, and NOT different enough to be obviously different. It is a boobytrap.
I'm very interested in seeing tubular key cutting.
You know... it almost seems like using a Tubular Pick would be easier than worrying if this FEO-K1 was clockwise, counter-clockwise, or made to the Chicago or Gem standard. It'll also work on any lock, and nearly as fast.
Question... Can You get a "Master Key" for either style lock? Need one for the Business I work for, as the "Locks" has no ID on the outside of the them. Usually, We have to cut into the "Product" to gain access to the lock mechanism...
stuff like this always blows my mind, you would think that the dude that decided to make these to sell them on ebay/amazon would just get one of the locks for a couple $, test it, figure out whats wrong in idk 5-10 minutes, revise, have a working product to sell for years to come, rather then the yolo make a product, throw it out there, it doesn't work, and it will barely sell after a month because people figure out it doesn't work.
i just can't wrap my head around going all in on short term profit, when you can have long term profit for something that is a one time investment of 10 minutes of QC and a single $20-30 lock
There are some FEO-K1 *locks* out there that have looser tolerances and which might work with some of these poor keys. Maybe he tested with those, heh.
10 minutes of QC vs 20 seconds to change seller name and continue to sell garbage
IIRC, BosnianBill did a vid similar to this, but I think it was Master vs American, and how the bittings between the two were one number off from each other.
Silly question - is there anything to stop you from printing a 0.4mm spacer/insert to "convert" from Chicago to Fort?
layer height and durability, possibly, heh. but if someone cuts a key the wrong way the OTHER way then it's possible to simply kind of trim/grind the front face of the key down a bit
@@DeviantOllam Oh yeah, getting rid of material is the easy part!
Is it possible the keys are sold kinda like computer pen testing tools? Where they don’t work out of the box to detour some people. As in you have to know how the tool works and modify it just enough for it to be usable.
in other words, is it possible to file the head of the Amazon key down one pin depth and the key be usable?
Nope. The key is too short out of the box, because it was cut using the wrong standard. Filing it down will make the problem worse, not better.
Your right. Shaving the indexing side pin is a make shift way to get these to function.
I don't see that GEM decoder on RTT or the github. (Only finding the other one in the usual STL searches.)
Is there one available, or do I have to draw up my own?
Hello! Did you do a collab with another YT channel that no longer exists on youtube? I'm trying to refind this channel as it had high quality long form video. Cannot remember the name exactly but i think it was 'covert' something or other. Your name seems very familiar when im trying to recall this channel. Any help would be appreciated
i ordered a tublular key for my gun cabinet from ultimate security device in nj for a hmc16940. after several weeks waiting for it, it did not turn the lock. it looks like the cuts were too deep. mine and the "replacement" are both are chicago keys. i called and emailied for help and they never got back to me. can i just file the end of the key, to shorten it?
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that the new standard has a zero cut that is a non-zero depth?
Thanks
Will it work if you just jiggle the crap out of it? Also, that other tubular video when? Curious to see how they managed to implement the different keys
By chance do you know where I can get a Herty Herty? I’m sure there aren’t any new ones anywhere, I wouldn’t mind a old/ used one I just need one for my truck almost more than anything else
Cool
So, I'm curious to know what those other keys were that we saw on that key ring. I saw what looked like a mailbox key, a car key, a handcuff key, and then a bunch of others that I didn't recognize. Is this your EDC set of pen test keys?
I noted 2 lock combs, 2 jiggler keys, the FEO-K1 (of course), a Chicago Elevator key, A CH751, the ultimate handcuff key, and what is likely a 1284x (Ford Fleet key)
Sounds pretty bad for the business if they can´t even agree on the direction of the array. Thanks for explaining this, Dev! Cheers!
Great example. Thank you, though it is probably a key I will not carry.
Would that chicago cut key operate the lock if you didn’t insert it completely, since everything is cut a constant distance too short?
I wondered this too. I'm just a hobbyist, but I'd think if you put tension on the lock and jiggled it it seems like it might open as you'd eventually get all the pins lined up at the correct depth. I was able to do that with a standard pin and tumbler lock with a restricted blank- I just impressioned the key and cut the new key out of a hacksaw blade and jiggled it. However, with the tubular lock you'd have to do it multiple times as the pins would presumably fall after every 1/8th rotation.
The cuts are also in the wrong order, though...
Hey dev, what’s all on that key ring right there?
That S&W key doesn't look standard; However, it looks a lot like the one on my keyring, on my wife's keyring, inside my belt, on my shoelaces and in most of my trouser hems.
That's only come in handy twice that wasn't "fun" times but it was worth every cent of the Dollar and a thousand-fold of the Dremel time.
See Dev's video, "Making the Ultimate Handcuff Key"
@@ZiggityPow Agreed, every good, sane, sober, moral and prudent person should! Add to the required watchlist: "This Key is Your Key, This Key is My Key"
I've made or helped to make at least 40. It's probably time that I should order a few more. Thanks for the spur to do so.
Is your company hiring any entry level positions?
ive been slightly diving into the rfid keytags that can be used to permit access to certain places, but then the company, without my involvement i will add, had in incident, so im not continuiing with that avenue for proof of concept, or for testing, so ill buy my own, but do you have any tips, or info about diving down that rabbit hole, will say i havent done much if any research yet..
Sure TSSA has the bitting code on their website. I thought that was pretty cool...until I went to model and print my own key and learned about all the different flavors of tubular locks...
thought that red one looked shallow at first
great video. I do have a question though. When you look up the code for a lock and it says the code is clock wise on lock does that mean it would be contour clock wise on the key when you cut it?
Nothing fishier than a professional faceless man asking for more faces… lol newb here contemplating leaving career field out of boredom and using a few skills that I thought I would never have to use again… is it really a crime if you never get caught?
Yes… yes it is for those of you with no compass.
Wow, I haven't heard hurdy-gurdy in a while.
Where can you find those measurement tools to check the bitting?
Lot's of confusing keys out there!
Does anyone know what the bitting code for a Yale 1620 NYC fire key is?
i'm kinda missing potatovision already ;)
GOOD 3 or 4 minute video. *Too bad it’s stretched* out to over 9 minutes.
_AND all the hand waving is crazy._
thanks for the vid... Where can I buy the decoders?
we're going to start including one with every tubular pick we sell on Red Team Tools. and we'll offer them separately, too. =)
@@DeviantOllam heh, I bought two, where’s mine!
@@RubberBanned heh, I mean we're starting to include them. 😂 But I'll send you some!
@@DeviantOllam Those 3d printers must be working overtime!
So how do you know which one to buy?
At least that key can still be cut to the proper depths.
true true. and i suppose if you were to pull it out *just* enough and perfectly flatly and also if the bit on the top of the key were trimmed down so it fit in the existing race, it *might* also work.
Clearly you need to start keeping glencairns out at RTA!
hah! i thought about that. we have them at RTAeast in Virginia. need to get them at RTAwest in Vegas. ;-)
so tldr it is cut correctly just to an older standard
Can I just have your keyring D-Man? Please! 🥺
That's why my key won't work
It might be stupid. But do a video on how to get a US passport.
Fill out the form and get an appropriate pair of passport photos, take those, your proof of identity and citizenship, and money to the post office and apply.
that's so dumb, why did they not just use the same numbering system?
1-Star review: Key was cut by some bozo in his garage.
I kinda got lost somewhere, if you find me, pls return me - Thanks for the video 👍
Do I downvote you for drinking (I assume Scotch) from a plastic cup? Serious rule violation buddy. Maybe report you to Scotland Yard (prob their jurisdiction).
Quit clearly 🥴
A little knowledge is dangerous 😳👍🏻😂😂😂
9 minutes to show and tell something as simple as they used the wrong numbering system