📖 Read more in the link below the video ⤴️ 🌾 If you would like to support my work click here ⤵️ www.ko-fi.com/chainbaker 🔪 Find all the things I use here ⤵️ 🇺🇸 www.amazon.com/shop/ChainBaker 🇬🇧 www.amazon.co.uk/shop/ChainBaker 🥨 To learn more about bread making click here ⤵️ Principles of Baking bit.ly/principles-of-baking The Steps of Baking bit.ly/steps-of-baking
Thank you for sharing this, it helped me think of two other methods: 1. The number you want to reach in your equation is 60. to cut it short: 25+24.5 = 49.5 60 (Could be 61 or 59, depending on your desired temp, this one will yield a 25c dough by the end of the kneeding process) - 49.5 = 10.5 2. Finding the median: (25+24.5+x (water temp))/3 =20 (the desired temperature, assuming you want to end up at 25c temp by the end of the kneeding process) if you solve for x it will also be 10.5.
I recently found your channel and I'm legit mind-blown at all the stuff I've learned. Especially the Dough Temp, I didn't know it was SO important. I live in Bogotá, Colombia. The average temperature is about 14°C or 58°F. But still in videos people always say to use Warm Water or Milk to activate the Yeast and stuff. Guess I was just lucky I live in a cold city, otherwise I would have messed up my breads even more than I usually do, lol.
Seriously..i live in India..avg temp is 28 to 48 degree Celsius and yet every other Baker told to use warm water and my bread got all messed up..after this channel i baked best bread ever
This answers SOOOO many questions. Your formula is super simple. I love your channel. By far the best bread making information on You Tube. The recipes are nice but as you say, once you know how it works, there is no limit.
I live in Western Australia and for most of the year it is so hot that keeping dough temp near 25 means alternating fridge and countertop. So much easier in winter! Or when I finally buy a better air conditioner. Thankyou for the video :D
Today I made bread and got the issue that it got more sticky at the end. After I did my research I came to the conclusion that the dough got to warm. Now I see your video and it's make even more sense and it confirms what I have to do Thanks!
how did I ever make decent bread without all this knowledge???? Do not get me wrong, I find it extremely fascinating, but it is a lot of stuff to bake a loaf of bread. My mother made lots of sweet yeast breads, no weighing, no measuring, all by feel. The only time she weighed was for cakes. I recently started using cold water, out of the fridge, for my dough and they turned out great - never consistent, but I like it that way, always a little surprise, but I add varied spices anyway. Now on to your next video, love them!!!!!
My god - I chanced upon your videos yesterday and have become an instant fan! Thanks for all the knowledge and methodical, step by step explanation. One thing I see in your videos different from others - you put the yeast and salt together…isn’t that an issue? I always bloom my yeast so doing it your way (or putting in such cold water) is very new to me. Thanks again - keep up the amazing work!
Thank you so much :) it would be an issue if I left it to sit for a long time, but when mixing it with the rest of the ingredients right away it does not cause any problems. I have not bloomed my yeast once in all my years of baking and don't see a reason to do so 😉
@@ChainBaker I subscribed yesterday and your view count probably went up by 100 yesterday haha - great videos and very informational. Stay safe and have a great weekend!
Yes I was wondering about that as well. I started watching Paul Hollywood in his bread videos and also on the great British baking show and he always says not to have the salt touch the yeast because it will kill the yeast. And yet there’s another bread channel artisan Steve and he puts them together and doesn’t have a problem either. Very strange
On your trip around the world for bread, when you get to the Netherlands make “Fries Suikerbrood” beautiful bread with pieces of caramelised sugar eaten with butter on top.
My dough ended up at 21C. Because of arthritis I use a mixer with a dough hook. This only increased the dough to 24C. That's +3C. I suspect the 5C rise is due to using warm hands. All came out well though😁
Yeah I have found that my hands are super warm and also the lights that I use for filming warm up the table too 😄 It's all about experimenting and seeing what works. And I'm glad you've succeeded 👍
This is wonderful info. Thank you very much. One question: I autolyse my main dough and also use a poolish. Do I aim for the desired temp in autolization or when I mix in my poolish and yeast? If latter, how do I reach correct temp since the water is already mixed in?
Thank you :) here is my other video explaining just that - th-cam.com/video/FM6jfm8sF88/w-d-xo.html You can chill down the poolish before mixing it in to the main dough, or you can make a cold autolyse or chill it down too. If your kitchen is super warm, then cool down everything before mixing the final dough
great content. most valuable information. Recipes are fantastic but knowledge in invaluable and you're terrific for sharing it. cheers. now give us a hint on use of yeast my friend!
Thanks! And you’re totally right. Knowing the ‘how’ is just as valuable as knowing the ‘why’ 👍🏻 knowing both makes up our skill. A video on the use of yeast is coming some time in the future for sure. It’s on the list 🙂 Thank you for watching and following along.
@@ChainBaker philosopher baker! man of the people! without getting heavy like the band, you rock chef. consider me a grateful fan. I truly respect your work...and your philosophy. good man
Thanks for the video! It would be interesting to see in one of your nice videos what would be the consequences of having a cooler dough, let's say at 15 °C, and also of a warmer dough, for example at 35 °C, in comparison with a dough at the right temperature.
I may do something like that in the future. But I can tell you now that a dough at 15C may ferment way too slowly.. unless that is what you are after, which is totally fine in some cases. 35C would not be ok at all because it would ferment way too fast and most likely over proof and not develop any decent flavour.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience across your videos. I've always thought I had to achieve a higher temp for the yeast to work well and also give it sugar - no longer! I've recently been wondering how I could achieve a desirable proofing temperature for a larger 2kg dough in a relatively cold, outdoor, winter environment of 5-10 degrees Celsius. Without over doing the initial temp of the water, could you use a bain marie or flame to generate a contained, desired ambient temperature? Or any other solution like heating the flour maybe ?
I think adjusting the water temperature would still be the best option in this case. How cool is your kitchen? I would guess it should be around 20 degrees regardless of how cold it is outside. So your water temp should not even be that high to get to the 25C mark in the final dough. If I was to knead that by hand I would use water that is in the low teens like 11C - 14C. Saying that - my table is quite warm. So, perhaps go up to high teens or maybe closer to 20C. But I'm just throwing out numbers. Take the temperature of your ingredients and calculate using this formula. Accounting for the larger dough taking more time to warm up.
@@ChainBaker many thanks for the reply. The temperature of the kitchen - I am quite literally thinking of how I could manage this outdoors, away from the home kitchen. Perhaps as you elude to, keeping the table quite warm is a good strategy?...
Oh I see. Well, then you definitely need warm ingredients to reach a decent final temp. The dough will cool down quote quickly during fermentation so you need a good setup for keeping the temperature steady. I can't imagine what it would be though. Why are you making this dough outside? And what equipment do you have available there?
@@ChainBaker Simply stems from wondering why it is so difficult to purchase a decent bite to eat in the UK....One angle is that rents accrued from the land in economies of agglomeration might be holding back something so essential as a proper loaf like the ones you craft. I have been thinking could it be produced with minimal contact with this rent-seeking urban land - a landlessness so to speak...With readily available catering equipment using a non-surplus amount of fuel - lpg.
Hello and thank you for youre wonderful videos but one question why 25 degrees if i do cold fermantion. May i add one more question if i do no need bread would taking off the 5 degrees be nessasary. Thank you
The yeast still needs to be at a high enough temperature to start fermenting. So, even with cold fermentation it is important to get the temperature within a good range.
Hi ,i came across your video.thinking to try this preferment thing. My room temp is around 21c. If i get the dough at 25c ,doninhve to keep it warm to keep at constant temperature?
Nice video! One thing I'm missing is how to adjust fermentation time for cooler or warmer temperature. My kitchen maintains a 19 degree temperature most of the time, and sure I can use the technique here to get the temperature of a dough up to 25 degrees, but that's going to go down to 19 again in a lot less time than the 12 hours my pre-ferment takes under ideal conditions, and probably also less time than the 3+ hours of autolysis and fermentation my bread dough uses. How does one account for that? I know lower temperature means fermentation will be slower, but I don't know how much slower for any given temperature!
I don't think that there would be a straight answer. It depends on the dough being made too and not just the temperature. If it's always cool I would just use a little bit more yeast to compensate for it.
Thank you :) The faster ot ferments the less flavour there will be. A longer fermentation develops better flavour. If the temperature is very hight, then the dough may over ferment and instead of rising as it's baking it may actually collapse. Lastly bread made by slower fermentation will keep fresh for longer as it is more acidic, but that mostly goes for dough that is fermented for relatively long time and perhaps made with a preferment. It is always best to keep the temperature on the lower side to have a nice controlled fermentation and less risk of over proofing,more flavour and better keeping quality 👍
@@ChainBaker omg thank you so much for your feedback, very helpful, thanks to your videos and explanation I'm so into baking :p and by the way I could read your comment with your own voice in my mind hehe thanks mate appreciated!
I absolutely love your channel. Your videos have helped me improve my baking more than any other resource. I would be interested to see a video on how to make bread flour with all purpose and vital wheat gluten. There are resources out there, but they don't explain how to make a certain percentage bread flour. It would be great to be able to make bread flour at the exact percentage that I want for a given recipe. Thanks for the great videos!
IMPORTANT QUESTION: do we have to pay attention to dough temperature control during the kneading process (24-26 degrees), when we have a cold bulk fermentation in the fridge overnight? because its going to the fridge anyway and drop temperature rapidly. thank you in advance, I appreciate all your work and efforts.
You should still aim for that kind of temperature range. The fermentation must get going a bit before you chill it down. Here's my cold fermentation guide th-cam.com/video/x-8UoEgtt48/w-d-xo.html
can you make a video about those gluten build up techniques , flying...(forgot), autolyse , levain, poolish , i am quite confuse, tqsm for this informative video
It is definitely on my future projects list. So many videos to make still 😁 I do have a playist with recipes using preferments like poolish and biga so you might find some information there - th-cam.com/play/PLJ97q0PY0sXLlc-9yybuuSJt11cXQGkeF.html Of course gluten wise I have the autolyse video and also a video on how to knead dough by hand - th-cam.com/video/T8FK5apuL40/w-d-xo.html ;)
If you make it in a mixer, then just make sure that everything is stone cold. Here's recipe - th-cam.com/video/id2HygaUNhE/w-d-xo.html If you're making it without kneading, then it's quite a bit easier. Here's a guide - th-cam.com/video/h_03N1BrOIY/w-d-xo.html
In North America, most recipes and the dry active/instant yeast package says to use liquid that is 38C-43C 100F-110F, is UK dry yeast that much different?
Charlie: None of your videos talk about proofing boxes/ovens. These are becoming a regular kitchen staple in the modern home bread bakers appliances line up. Even my old convection ovens from 17 years ago had proofing cycles built in as do my new ovens. I have also utilized my dehydrators as make shift proofing boxes at Christmas time when I am making dinner rolls for upwards of 65 people. What is the best air temperature to use when using these proofing methods? My dehydrators go as low as 80 degrees farenheit, but I think my proofing cycles on my new ovens may be warmer. What is a good air temperature to proof bread at?
Currently with current gas prices my hands cool the dough by 10 degrees. and why focus on 25c? i always just do a fimple first rise till doubled this can be 45 in in summer or 75 min in winter then a light knede and shaping then a 30 min rise ( can be 20 or 40 min depending on temp) and then final shaping and then till doubled and in the oven it goes. Isn't time is more a guideline then a rule?
The only thing that controls the time is the temperature, so that is why it is the parameter mostly used. around 25C is an optimal temperature which allows for enough fermentation time to develop good flavour. The higher the temp the sooner the bread will rise the less flavour it will have. Of course, the temperature of every kitchen can be different so that is why we control the dough temperature to compensate for the difference in temperature of the environment. It's all about making fermentation predictable and being able to be in full control instead of letting the dough control you. I want my bread to rise for the same amount of time in winter and summer.
I just found the perfect way to control the temperature when it's too cold, i will be using a sous vide bath to get that 25-26°c for proofing the dough much faster. I can't seem to get 25° even with vigorous kneading during the colder months. Everything stays at room temperature which is slightly too cold being only 22°c maximum. This way i don't have to heat ingredients separately.
You can just use warmer water. There is no need to heat it either. Just run some hot water from the tap in a cup and then adjust the temperature by adding some cold water until you reach the desired temperature.
@@ChainBaker ah, yes but since i am using low salt mineral (bottled, for consistency) water i would have to heat it and it would still drop in temperature over time. This sous vide "proofing box" will make it easier for me and i can exactly control the temperature within a degree so i can control the proofing time to the max of what is possible if i was really craving for some fresh bread .🤤
Lately I have just been using water at the desired temperature and it has worked well. But I am still experimenting and planning to make a whole video on it soon.
@@ChainBaker Good idea! From this calculations that you show on the video, if you use 2C as your hand temp on no knead it works out to be the same as using same water temp. + - half a degree and it works great. so example on a no knead dough internal temp 25C its 25-2=23 X 3 for 3 variables = 69 - 22 air - 22 flour = 25C as in your new Pizza video that you released today! I also use the same variable for Slap and fold. Remember we do have some contact with the dough and the mixing bowl plays a role too. I find this formula works for me in slap and fold and no knead for some strange reason. But i will look forward to your new video on this subject :)
Hi can you help I’ve just done your calculation for my mixer Adds 10degrees of heat Air temp 15degrees Flour temp 15 degrees Ideal dough temp 26d 26 -10=16 3 x 16 = 48 -A-F= 18 degree water. But if I do the calculations on your flour and Air temp I get -1.5 degrees so how would you rectify that. By cooling your flour ?
Also want to add I cooked my first loaf checking dough temperature and although I’m not there yet I can already see the amazing difference it made to my finished loaf. Thank you Chain baker
I don't think the temperature right before cooking is that important. You can stretch a cold proofed pizza right from the fridge and bake it or you can stretch one that has been fermenting at room temperature in the summer. The most important part is how they were fermented. A cold proofed dough will have a more intense flavour and a crispier crust. A warm temperature fermented dough will be sweeter and lighter.
@@ChainBaker thanks for the reply, i guess my question is really about how restaurants make all pizza the same thickness, I am almost there doing it at home but at times the pizza crust is too thin at some spots, usually the center is thinner, I thought the secrets was slightly cooler dough but that is not the case. may be I just need more practice stretching the dough?
@@ChainBaker Thanks again, my hydration is 63%, perhaps, this dough will not be thrown in the air! :) do you have a recommendation for the hydration % for pizza dough?
I would go up to 70% or close to that. The dough will be a lot stretchier and it will have a nice and bubbly crust. Perhaps start with 67% and then move up.
learning a lot too, but this surprises me as well... thought one needs warm water for the yeast? hmmm i'd like to see difference in temperature test lol
You can use cold water. You can refrigerate your flour even before making the dough. And keep it in the coolest part of your home. Try making it during the coolest part of the day.
I thought I needed the final temp to be 35c cuz my oven have ferment function and it says 35c. The annual temp is around 32 so it's pretty easily achieved. (And yes, it messed up my bread.) And here a dude living in cold place mixing it with such cold water. That also explain why I saw a baker irl put ice in their mixer lmao. Should have known by then that I got it wrong. I thought it was because the mixer make thing warm. Also many vids around here do use room temp water (~28c) *face palm* what have i done.
Charlie - you sir, are a steely-eyed missile man. While some people might binge watch trash tv shows, I have spent the last several days binging your awesome channel. I am gonna be a happy bread making fool for the rest of winter. I have been in the habit of using my Kitchenaid for the kneading process but am now completely motivated to manually kneading by hand. After watching the Principals of baking vids, I have a few questions. You often say that your kitchen is running warm and I am not clear what temp that might be. My kitchen is almost always 21C. Would you call that warm or cool? I also note that you use a wood butcher block like worktop. As mush I would love to replace a portion of the granite countertop I have with wood, I cannot afford the divorce. Is granite ok for or should I put together a big wood platform for kneading the dough? Final question (for now): I will often (especially during colder months) use the oven as a proof box with only the light on. Would you think that to run the risk of over-proofing the dough? Should I just let it hang out on the counter a little longer rather than “cheat” with the oven light? Thanks for all this. You rock.
Hey! Cheers for the kind words :) My kitchen is around 23 - 24C most of the time. 21C is a good temperature for hand kneading. The granite worktop will keep the dough temperature down. I would suggest try using room temperature water in this case and see how it goes. Even when my kitchen is 19 - 22C I never place the dough in a warm area to proof. Room temp is enough.
If your kitchen is really warm, then you should use cold water even if it is 3C. During mixing it will warm up regardless. Sometimes bakers add ice into the bowl when mixing dough with a machine to control the temperature. Dry yeast is more sensitive to cold water than fresh yeast in my experience, but if you mix everything right away it should cause no issues.
Will I be able to ferment bread properly with an air temperature of 35°C, 42°C if you account for humidity, it's really hot here in the Philippines but I'm also curious of giving baking a try
You can. It will ferment very quickly though. If I had to bake in such a hot environment O would stick to cold fermentation. Here's some inspiration th-cam.com/play/PLJ97q0PY0sXKY-oq1rQS3fUiSCfClW5N3.html&si=nYjZJ48nhW6kJfUS ✌️😎
@@ChainBaker haha thanks for the link! I could imagine why local bakers in our community always do all their prep work in the wee hours of the morning. It's just that it's too hot here during summer. Plus no one practices bulk fermentation here longer than 4 hours. Artisanal baking is still a new trend here in the Philippines.
@cfespenilla8235 the high temperature definitely makes it more challenging. And cold fermentation requires fridge space which is not always an option. But for home baking you can definitely utilize it 😉
In your formula to achieve the desired temperature after mixing, you said 25 is what you desire. Where does the 25 degrees C come from? Is it experience that it's close to the present ambient room temperature or is a due to the mixture or what?
Quick question , from a newbie. You explained and showed everything EXCEPT EXCEPT the internal temperature of a fresh baked loaf of bread?? Why not? Does it matter?? How to control for this?? .... Waiting ..... THX.
Hi , I had to go out but wanted to make a loaf so decided to try and retard my dough so I used cold water and chilled my bowl, Dough temp at the end of mixing 21.8 kitchen 17 degrees. After 4hrs I returned and the dough had only doubled in size when I came to pre shape the dough became very active and then after 15 mins I final shaped, then the ferment slowed down I let it proof for an hour but it still didn’t look great . The bread came out good in the end but I know it’s gonna be a bit denser than normal, Why did the dough decelerate on my final shapeing , thanks again for all your great videos
Very interesting, but I miss the importance of this control of dough temperature. I ferment my dough for 6 hours (with two intermediate short kneads, every two hours) and the dough will in any case revert to a temperature which is room temperature + heat generated by the fermentation (around 2°C).
Thank you. Very helpful. One question though. Why is it that all the recipes call for body temperature (Luke warm) water? By your explanation this is far too hot.
Thank you! 🙏 Those recipes are usually written by people who themselves don't quite understand the principles of baking. Temperature control is extremely important and using body temperature water should only be done in the middle of winter when your kitchen is cold and even then sometimes that temperature may be too high. We want a controlled fermentation. Making bread fully rise in one hour is far too quick and does not develop any flavour and leaves the flour almost raw. Hope this helps 😊
Do check out some more videos in the Principles of Baking playlist on my channel. I guarantee that you will find more useful info there. And I have more than 150 recipes that use those same principles 😉
Why is it important to control the dough temperature? For me my ambient room temperature and groundwater temperature are about 30 degrees - what would happen if I don't use cooled water? what's the problem with fast fermentation?
Hi I have a question - I am from India. It's winter right now so during the day it's about 24-29C but for most months of the year the daytime temperature is at least 35C. I did the calculation and I go into negatives. I can't use ice, can I? :( Is there any way to work around this? Should I freeze a pair of gloves and use them for kneading? Won't be good for my hands 😢
Refrigerate it after shaping and then bake it straight from the fridge. You must use less yeast in your recipe otherwise it may over proof. I would suggest making a couple of small test batches and seeing what works best. I have never actually cold proofed ciabatta. Another option would be to refrigerate the dough just before bulk proof is finished. Then you can divide it on the next day, leave it for the final rise and then bake.
@@ChainBaker THANK YOU, thank you for your response. Frequently have friends staying with me, and for some time thought that it would be very memorable for them to wake up in the morning to the smell of freshly baked bread. Love your channel, it got everything I was looking for. Have wonderful holiday. :)))
Hi, love your channel, it is so full of valuable information that I've subscribed from multiple accounts. However, in this video I was wishing to find comparisons with making/proofing bread at different temperatures. Being able to see the difference with proofing at low temperatures for long time versus proofing at high temperatures for a short time. On my side, my variables are way too hard to control to be able to test on my own. I live in a house heated by a wood stove/oven. In the winter, when I wake up in the morning, my house can be between 0⁰C and 15⁰C. How fast it will warm up and to what temperature depends on many factors. It is all fine for me as I enjoy the surprise of having a different bread everything I make it. Since I don't bake commercially, I don't need consistency. Still, I'm a geek for knowledge and information.
The higher the temperature the quicker it will ferment. The quicker it ferments the less flavour it develops. Here is a video on slow fermentation - th-cam.com/video/-hcY6xituuU/w-d-xo.html Perhaps it could come in handy :)
It does affect final temperature but I never use it as part of the calculation. Once you've kneaded a few doughs on that table you should know whether it makes the dough warmer or colder.
@@ChainBaker awesome brother! I make Steam buns for my business and sometimes they come out deflated and some are perfect, would you have any suggestions why? Thanks
Hi, bro my room temperature 31c flour 30c. As per your guidance 60-61 =-1. I used ice with water but window pane test came 35min. I used stand mixer. I enclosed my burger bun recipes Flour 11%protien Water 65% Salt 2% Sugar 7.5% Milk powder 2.5% Shortening 6% Improver 1% Gluten 1% Absorbic acid.0.3% Kindly do the needful.
@chainbaker. I have watched this video numerous times and I am not getting an understanding. What is the purpose of controlling the water temperature? Obviously you won’t use ice water or boiling water. I went to culinary school back in 2015 and I am a recent graduate of pastry arts. I always test the temperature on my wrist, which is about 80 degrees, and I have never had an issue. I have used room temp water and still didn’t have any issues. Like you I like to keep things as simple as possible and I hate math, but I want to learn all avenues if possible. So what are some of the failures for not doing this calculation and controlling the DDT/water temperature. Secondly, what do you do when using a proof box?
It's about controlling the fermentation. Using warm water will make the dough rise very rapidly. Flavour is developed over time so is good texture. A dough that is too warm also risks being over fermented. I pretty much always use cold water. A proof box can be a great tool. I have never felt the need to use one though ;D
@@ChainBaker I’ve used a proof box at work but I don’t have one at home. I sometimes use the oven or my food dehydrator. Here is Alabama during the summer there is really no need for it because of the temperature. Thanks for answering my question.
Wouldn’t you need to take account of the quantities of the flour and water as well when doing the calculations ? For example, if I have 500g of flour at 24C and add 30g of water at 10C then that’s not going to have the same effect on the combined temperature as adding 300g of water at 10C.
I think it kind of equals out because of the different densities of those ingredients. And it never really goes into such extremes. I'm sure there are more sophisticated formulas that are being used in bakeries, but this simple version works perfectly fine for home baking.
@@ChainBaker yeah that makes sense. Ha, my example was a bit extreme, mixing a 6% hydration would definitely be a challenge ;-). Learning a huge amount from the videos by the way - excellent content, many thanks for taking the time to put them together 🙏🏼
According to this, if my kitchen is at 17ºC and the flour is at 17ºC , the water would have to be at piping hot 41 ºC to obtain a dough at 25ºC . Wouldn't 41ºC kill the yeast?
Hello, sir i have a question what if your dough takes more than 6 minutes? 😅 because i work with big amount of dough , it takes me more than 10 minutes kneading the dough with a stand mixer
Omigawd! I hadn't even thought of all these considerations. I just wing it, and then when it all goes to hell in a handbasket, I scratch my head and mutter "what the ever-loving f#@%?!!" 😂 Now, thanks to you, I know better. Does all bread dough have to prove at around 24-25 °C?
The dough temperature can be lowered to extend proofing time for sure. A longer slower fermentation can be good for some breads. But remember the longer a bread ferments the more sour it will be and the more crusty it will become. So if you’re making sweet soft cinnamon buns then perhaps a quick fermentation would be better. When it comes to the other end of the spectrum of temperature I would not recommend going over 26C. The dough will just ferment too quickly and you’ll risk over fermenting it 👍🏻
Same here! Now that I know what to aim for and what's my environment ( very hot summer in my country at the moment ), I can adapt accordingly with my preferment.
good but doesn't it assume that the water and flour are of equal quantities if they are going to contribute equally the same to the final temperature...? what happens when dough goes above 30?
Even when they're not of equal quantity, it always turns out more or less correct. The warmer the dough the quicker it will ferment the higher the chance of over proofing.
thanks i used this technique for another type of dough which needs good gluten development but i realised that my doughneeder machine was partly cooking it (30C) and thus ending up with the dough tearing...i have now started using freezing water and monotoring the temp with great success thanks@@ChainBaker
I follow your math except for the part where you'd take 20 and multiply by 3. I understand the thtee variables, and I follow how you got to the number 20, but I don't understand why you'd want to multiply these numbers together
Holy crumby loaf , Batman. How did humanity ever get this far without scientific measuring of grams and electronic digital thermometers? Lucky we are alive as a species. Its a miracle.
I mean, clearly your calculations came out correctly but I guess this is because water and dough ratio are similar every time? The "more correct" formula would need to take the ratio between water/flour into account wouldn't it? Let's say hypothetical you use very little hot water and lots of cold flour the overall temperature would tend to be cold right? But I guess if your technique works it's easier that way👍
I commercial bakeries I bet they have formulas that take many other things into account to get a precise temperature. But for the home baker and for most breads this should work most of the time. The ratio of flour to water is generally never that extreme since hydration is usually between 60% - 80% in most cases. I like to keep it simple :)
@@ChainBaker Thanks for responding. No problem regarding too rapid fermentation. I use very little yeast and let the dough ferment for half an hour while still rather moist. Add more flour and wait one hour. Then adding the final amount of flour when forming the breads. Leave them to rise for 30 minutes before baking. Endresult very good flavour and texture.
I only speak english and latvian so I can't help much 😄 What I can suggest is you could copy the text from my website into google translate and then you will at least be able to see the written article 👍
@@ChainBaker he's saying he will have an easier time reading English than listening to it because his English isn't that great. English subtitles would help him.
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Thank you for sharing this, it helped me think of two other methods:
1. The number you want to reach in your equation is 60.
to cut it short: 25+24.5 = 49.5
60 (Could be 61 or 59, depending on your desired temp, this one will yield a 25c dough by the end of the kneeding process) - 49.5 = 10.5
2. Finding the median: (25+24.5+x (water temp))/3 =20 (the desired temperature, assuming you want to end up at 25c temp by the end of the kneeding process) if you solve for x it will also be 10.5.
Be honest. We never thought temperature was important until we watched this video 💀
im not a baker but i knew about it since 2005 coz of an anime called yakitatte japan.
@@raikaroku Solar Hands!!!
I recently found your channel and I'm legit mind-blown at all the stuff I've learned. Especially the Dough Temp, I didn't know it was SO important. I live in Bogotá, Colombia. The average temperature is about 14°C or 58°F. But still in videos people always say to use Warm Water or Milk to activate the Yeast and stuff. Guess I was just lucky I live in a cold city, otherwise I would have messed up my breads even more than I usually do, lol.
Seriously..i live in India..avg temp is 28 to 48 degree Celsius and yet every other Baker told to use warm water and my bread got all messed up..after this channel i baked best bread ever
This answers SOOOO many questions. Your formula is super simple. I love your channel. By far the best bread making information on You Tube. The recipes are nice but as you say, once you know how it works, there is no limit.
I'm trying these this morning! luv the small portion size and your other recipes are very interesting to me. Thank you from Tennessee
Thanks so much. I am new to bread making, only about 4 months. I came upon your page and it had become my primary resource. Thanks for all your work.
Incredible video, thank you so much! Very rarely do bakers talk about temperature and it always annoys me, this video nails everything.
Awesome! I learn something new every time I see one of your videos! :)
Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and skills.
Really helped my baking game
I live in Western Australia and for most of the year it is so hot that keeping dough temp near 25 means alternating fridge and countertop. So much easier in winter! Or when I finally buy a better air conditioner. Thankyou for the video :D
I had NO idea that the temp of bread dough made a difference! Im fact, I had NO knowledge of this period!!! Wow!! Thanks so much!
Tank u for ur perfect baking tips 🤠
🙏 thankyou so much for making and sharing this video.
Very helpful. Thank you
Today I made bread and got the issue that it got more sticky at the end. After I did my research I came to the conclusion that the dough got to warm.
Now I see your video and it's make even more sense and it confirms what I have to do
Thanks!
superb!! thank you for the excellent easy to understand explanation of the Concept
I'm watching your videos non-stop. I hope you get more subscribers because you have created the best bread making channel I've found!
That is very kind of you. Thank you 🙏
You’re a real hero man thank you for this!
Happy to help, Sir! :)
This is the single best video in all of TH-cam! Love your channel 😍
🤩
Very interesting!
This is very cool methodology
how did I ever make decent bread without all this knowledge???? Do not get me wrong, I find it extremely fascinating, but it is a lot of stuff to bake a loaf of bread. My mother made lots of sweet yeast breads, no weighing, no measuring, all by feel. The only time she weighed was for cakes. I recently started using cold water, out of the fridge, for my dough and they turned out great - never consistent, but I like it that way, always a little surprise, but I add varied spices anyway. Now on to your next video, love them!!!!!
My god - I chanced upon your videos yesterday and have become an instant fan! Thanks for all the knowledge and methodical, step by step explanation. One thing I see in your videos different from others - you put the yeast and salt together…isn’t that an issue? I always bloom my yeast so doing it your way (or putting in such cold water) is very new to me. Thanks again - keep up the amazing work!
Thank you so much :) it would be an issue if I left it to sit for a long time, but when mixing it with the rest of the ingredients right away it does not cause any problems. I have not bloomed my yeast once in all my years of baking and don't see a reason to do so 😉
@@ChainBaker I subscribed yesterday and your view count probably went up by 100 yesterday haha - great videos and very informational. Stay safe and have a great weekend!
That's awesome! I'm so glad you like it and find it useful :) I'll keep em coming 😁 thank you.
Yes I was wondering about that as well. I started watching Paul Hollywood in his bread videos and also on the great British baking show and he always says not to have the salt touch the yeast because it will kill the yeast. And yet there’s another bread channel artisan Steve and he puts them together and doesn’t have a problem either. Very strange
Search for an article titled "Will Mixing In Salt and Sugar Kill Your Yeast? Tom Lehmann Says ‘Not Always’"
Your videos have really helped me out. Thanks so much for making them.
✌️😎
Very clear information in this channel, seems better videos here than on channels with ten or twenty times more views.
Thank you, Ben! :)
On your trip around the world for bread, when you get to the Netherlands make “Fries Suikerbrood” beautiful bread with pieces of caramelised sugar eaten with butter on top.
fascinating, I didn't know this matter.
Soooooo good! I love this channel!
🤩
Wow. You’re amazing 🤩
Thanks for the video. can't believe only 200 likes, such an underrated video.
Thank you, Albert!
My dough ended up at 21C. Because of arthritis I use a mixer with a dough hook. This only increased the dough to 24C. That's +3C. I suspect the 5C rise is due to using warm hands. All came out well though😁
Yeah I have found that my hands are super warm and also the lights that I use for filming warm up the table too 😄
It's all about experimenting and seeing what works. And I'm glad you've succeeded 👍
This is wonderful info. Thank you very much. One question: I autolyse my main dough and also use a poolish. Do I aim for the desired temp in autolization or when I mix in my poolish and yeast? If latter, how do I reach correct temp since the water is already mixed in?
Thank you :) here is my other video explaining just that - th-cam.com/video/FM6jfm8sF88/w-d-xo.html
You can chill down the poolish before mixing it in to the main dough, or you can make a cold autolyse or chill it down too. If your kitchen is super warm, then cool down everything before mixing the final dough
Much appreciated. You are a loaf of an angel.
Anytime 😉
Very good info, brother. Thanks. I guess this applies to sourdough as well?
I'm glad you found it useful 🙏
I love your videos so much and you have helped me tremendously! And its funny haha stop messing around its not a back massage 😂
great content. most valuable information. Recipes are fantastic but knowledge in invaluable and you're terrific for sharing it. cheers. now give us a hint on use of yeast my friend!
Thanks! And you’re totally right. Knowing the ‘how’ is just as valuable as knowing the ‘why’ 👍🏻 knowing both makes up our skill.
A video on the use of yeast is coming some time in the future for sure. It’s on the list 🙂
Thank you for watching and following along.
@@ChainBaker philosopher baker! man of the people! without getting heavy like the band, you rock chef. consider me a grateful fan. I truly respect your work...and your philosophy. good man
Thank you for the kind words my friend 🙏🏻
Thanks for the video! It would be interesting to see in one of your nice videos what would be the consequences of having a cooler dough, let's say at 15 °C, and also of a warmer dough, for example at 35 °C, in comparison with a dough at the right temperature.
I may do something like that in the future. But I can tell you now that a dough at 15C may ferment way too slowly.. unless that is what you are after, which is totally fine in some cases. 35C would not be ok at all because it would ferment way too fast and most likely over proof and not develop any decent flavour.
@@ChainBaker Thanks a lot for your reply! very insightful!
Thanks so much for sharing your experience across your videos. I've always thought I had to achieve a higher temp for the yeast to work well and also give it sugar - no longer! I've recently been wondering how I could achieve a desirable proofing temperature for a larger 2kg dough in a relatively cold, outdoor, winter environment of 5-10 degrees Celsius. Without over doing the initial temp of the water, could you use a bain marie or flame to generate a contained, desired ambient temperature? Or any other solution like heating the flour maybe ?
I think adjusting the water temperature would still be the best option in this case. How cool is your kitchen? I would guess it should be around 20 degrees regardless of how cold it is outside. So your water temp should not even be that high to get to the 25C mark in the final dough. If I was to knead that by hand I would use water that is in the low teens like 11C - 14C. Saying that - my table is quite warm. So, perhaps go up to high teens or maybe closer to 20C. But I'm just throwing out numbers. Take the temperature of your ingredients and calculate using this formula. Accounting for the larger dough taking more time to warm up.
@@ChainBaker many thanks for the reply. The temperature of the kitchen - I am quite literally thinking of how I could manage this outdoors, away from the home kitchen. Perhaps as you elude to, keeping the table quite warm is a good strategy?...
Oh I see. Well, then you definitely need warm ingredients to reach a decent final temp. The dough will cool down quote quickly during fermentation so you need a good setup for keeping the temperature steady. I can't imagine what it would be though. Why are you making this dough outside? And what equipment do you have available there?
@@ChainBaker Simply stems from wondering why it is so difficult to purchase a decent bite to eat in the UK....One angle is that rents accrued from the land in economies of agglomeration might be holding back something so essential as a proper loaf like the ones you craft. I have been thinking could it be produced with minimal contact with this rent-seeking urban land - a landlessness so to speak...With readily available catering equipment using a non-surplus amount of fuel - lpg.
Hello and thank you for youre wonderful videos but one question why 25 degrees if i do cold fermantion. May i add one more question if i do no need bread would taking off the 5 degrees be nessasary. Thank you
The yeast still needs to be at a high enough temperature to start fermenting. So, even with cold fermentation it is important to get the temperature within a good range.
Hi ,i came across your video.thinking to try this preferment thing.
My room temp is around 21c.
If i get the dough at 25c ,doninhve to keep it warm to keep at constant temperature?
Go for 26 and it'll ferment just fine. Even at 25 it will rise, but slower. The main thing is the temperature at the beginning to get it going.
Nice video! One thing I'm missing is how to adjust fermentation time for cooler or warmer temperature. My kitchen maintains a 19 degree temperature most of the time, and sure I can use the technique here to get the temperature of a dough up to 25 degrees, but that's going to go down to 19 again in a lot less time than the 12 hours my pre-ferment takes under ideal conditions, and probably also less time than the 3+ hours of autolysis and fermentation my bread dough uses. How does one account for that? I know lower temperature means fermentation will be slower, but I don't know how much slower for any given temperature!
I don't think that there would be a straight answer. It depends on the dough being made too and not just the temperature. If it's always cool I would just use a little bit more yeast to compensate for it.
Using stater method or tangzhong method that will help
Thank you so much for all the information 🙏🏻🙏🏻 aside from fast fermentation, what's the effect of a high temperature on a dough?
Thank you :)
The faster ot ferments the less flavour there will be. A longer fermentation develops better flavour. If the temperature is very hight, then the dough may over ferment and instead of rising as it's baking it may actually collapse. Lastly bread made by slower fermentation will keep fresh for longer as it is more acidic, but that mostly goes for dough that is fermented for relatively long time and perhaps made with a preferment.
It is always best to keep the temperature on the lower side to have a nice controlled fermentation and less risk of over proofing,more flavour and better keeping quality 👍
@@ChainBaker omg thank you so much for your feedback, very helpful, thanks to your videos and explanation I'm so into baking :p and by the way I could read your comment with your own voice in my mind hehe thanks mate appreciated!
I'm glad I could be a part of your baking experience 🤩 thanks! 😉
I absolutely love your channel. Your videos have helped me improve my baking more than any other resource. I would be interested to see a video on how to make bread flour with all purpose and vital wheat gluten. There are resources out there, but they don't explain how to make a certain percentage bread flour. It would be great to be able to make bread flour at the exact percentage that I want for a given recipe. Thanks for the great videos!
th-cam.com/video/mf3Xo6YtsB4/w-d-xo.html this might be helpful 😉
@@ChainBaker Oh boy, I didn't find this one. Thank you!
Hey! If you add more flower than water in the mix how u count the flower temp as 1 part of the variable? Works anyway? Maby a stupid question.
It does work anyway. It's not always exact, but for the simplicity of calculation it's good enough :)
Do you have an altered formula for calculating water temp when you are using a preferment and autolyse?? Please advise, thanks
Yes, here - www.chainbaker.com/how-to-control-sourdough-bread-temperature/
IMPORTANT QUESTION: do we have to pay attention to dough temperature control during the kneading process (24-26 degrees), when we have a cold bulk fermentation in the fridge overnight? because its going to the fridge anyway and drop temperature rapidly. thank you in advance, I appreciate all your work and efforts.
You should still aim for that kind of temperature range. The fermentation must get going a bit before you chill it down.
Here's my cold fermentation guide th-cam.com/video/x-8UoEgtt48/w-d-xo.html
can you make a video about those gluten build up techniques , flying...(forgot), autolyse , levain, poolish , i am quite confuse, tqsm for this informative video
It is definitely on my future projects list. So many videos to make still 😁 I do have a playist with recipes using preferments like poolish and biga so you might find some information there - th-cam.com/play/PLJ97q0PY0sXLlc-9yybuuSJt11cXQGkeF.html
Of course gluten wise I have the autolyse video and also a video on how to knead dough by hand - th-cam.com/video/T8FK5apuL40/w-d-xo.html
;)
@@ChainBaker tqvm again!
Very interesting!. Now, how would you do it baking brioche?
You add more ingredients, is the temperature also that important?
If you make it in a mixer, then just make sure that everything is stone cold. Here's recipe - th-cam.com/video/id2HygaUNhE/w-d-xo.html
If you're making it without kneading, then it's quite a bit easier. Here's a guide - th-cam.com/video/h_03N1BrOIY/w-d-xo.html
@@ChainBaker thank you!
In North America, most recipes and the dry active/instant yeast package says to use liquid that is 38C-43C 100F-110F, is UK dry yeast that much different?
Here's more about active yeast th-cam.com/video/0MEZG9jGFwE/w-d-xo.html
Instant yeast should not need warm liquid.
@@ChainBaker Thanks, I will check it out.
Charlie: None of your videos talk about proofing boxes/ovens. These are becoming a regular kitchen staple in the modern home bread bakers appliances line up. Even my old convection ovens from 17 years ago had proofing cycles built in as do my new ovens. I have also utilized my dehydrators as make shift proofing boxes at Christmas time when I am making dinner rolls for upwards of 65 people. What is the best air temperature to use when using these proofing methods? My dehydrators go as low as 80 degrees farenheit, but I think my proofing cycles on my new ovens may be warmer. What is a good air temperature to proof bread at?
The same as the dough temperature or slightly lower.
Currently with current gas prices my hands cool the dough by 10 degrees. and why focus on 25c? i always just do a fimple first rise till doubled this can be 45 in in summer or 75 min in winter then a light knede and shaping then a 30 min rise ( can be 20 or 40 min depending on temp) and then final shaping and then till doubled and in the oven it goes. Isn't time is more a guideline then a rule?
The only thing that controls the time is the temperature, so that is why it is the parameter mostly used. around 25C is an optimal temperature which allows for enough fermentation time to develop good flavour. The higher the temp the sooner the bread will rise the less flavour it will have. Of course, the temperature of every kitchen can be different so that is why we control the dough temperature to compensate for the difference in temperature of the environment. It's all about making fermentation predictable and being able to be in full control instead of letting the dough control you.
I want my bread to rise for the same amount of time in winter and summer.
I just found the perfect way to control the temperature when it's too cold, i will be using a sous vide bath to get that 25-26°c for proofing the dough much faster. I can't seem to get 25° even with vigorous kneading during the colder months. Everything stays at room temperature which is slightly too cold being only 22°c maximum. This way i don't have to heat ingredients separately.
You can just use warmer water. There is no need to heat it either. Just run some hot water from the tap in a cup and then adjust the temperature by adding some cold water until you reach the desired temperature.
@@ChainBaker ah, yes but since i am using low salt mineral (bottled, for consistency) water i would have to heat it and it would still drop in temperature over time. This sous vide "proofing box" will make it easier for me and i can exactly control the temperature within a degree so i can control the proofing time to the max of what is possible if i was really craving for some fresh bread .🤤
Ooh I see 😁 makes sense!
Hey Charlie. How do you figure out the internal dough temp if you want example 25C for a no knead?
Lately I have just been using water at the desired temperature and it has worked well. But I am still experimenting and planning to make a whole video on it soon.
@@ChainBaker Good idea! From this calculations that you show on the video, if you use 2C as your hand temp on no knead it works out to be the same as using same water temp. + - half a degree and it works great. so example on a no knead dough internal temp 25C its
25-2=23 X 3 for 3 variables = 69 - 22 air - 22 flour = 25C as in your new Pizza video that you released today!
I also use the same variable for Slap and fold. Remember we do have some contact with the dough and the mixing bowl plays a role too. I find this formula works for me in slap and fold and no knead for some strange reason. But i will look forward to your new video on this subject :)
Hi can you help I’ve just done your calculation for my mixer
Adds 10degrees of heat
Air temp 15degrees
Flour temp 15 degrees
Ideal dough temp 26d
26 -10=16
3 x 16 = 48 -A-F=
18 degree water.
But if I do the calculations on your flour and Air temp I get -1.5 degrees so how would you rectify that. By cooling your flour ?
Also want to add I cooked my first loaf checking dough temperature and although I’m not there yet I can already see the amazing difference it made to my finished loaf. Thank you Chain baker
Yes, you can cool down the flour :) I do that quite often in summer or when I make brioche.
Hi, thank you for all the amazing content, what's the general rule for Pizza Dough Temperature right before it's stretched before cooking?
I don't think the temperature right before cooking is that important. You can stretch a cold proofed pizza right from the fridge and bake it or you can stretch one that has been fermenting at room temperature in the summer. The most important part is how they were fermented. A cold proofed dough will have a more intense flavour and a crispier crust. A warm temperature fermented dough will be sweeter and lighter.
@@ChainBaker thanks for the reply, i guess my question is really about how restaurants make all pizza the same thickness, I am almost there doing it at home but at times the pizza crust is too thin at some spots, usually the center is thinner, I thought the secrets was slightly cooler dough but that is not the case. may be I just need more practice stretching the dough?
It depends on the dough too. The hydration will affect it greatly. A warmer dough is easier to stretch, but a cold dough can be more forgiving.
@@ChainBaker Thanks again, my hydration is 63%, perhaps, this dough will not be thrown in the air! :) do you have a recommendation for the hydration % for pizza dough?
I would go up to 70% or close to that. The dough will be a lot stretchier and it will have a nice and bubbly crust. Perhaps start with 67% and then move up.
Hi. My bagel recipe needs luke warm water...is the correct or can i add flour to cold water for bagels too?
I pretty much always use cold water. Here is another video you may find useful - th-cam.com/video/29PScgqX9WA/w-d-xo.html
you are fantastic
You are fantastic for being here! Cheers, Richard 😉
learning a lot too, but this surprises me as well... thought one needs warm water for the yeast? hmmm i'd like to see difference in temperature test lol
th-cam.com/video/29PScgqX9WA/w-d-xo.html 😎
Hey!how would u treat the dough in an tropical environment without an AC? Thx!
You can use cold water. You can refrigerate your flour even before making the dough. And keep it in the coolest part of your home. Try making it during the coolest part of the day.
@@ChainBaker thank u for ur advice/time!
I thought I needed the final temp to be 35c cuz my oven have ferment function and it says 35c. The annual temp is around 32 so it's pretty easily achieved. (And yes, it messed up my bread.) And here a dude living in cold place mixing it with such cold water. That also explain why I saw a baker irl put ice in their mixer lmao. Should have known by then that I got it wrong. I thought it was because the mixer make thing warm. Also many vids around here do use room temp water (~28c) *face palm* what have i done.
Charlie - you sir, are a steely-eyed missile man. While some people might binge watch trash tv shows, I have spent the last several days binging your awesome channel. I am gonna be a happy bread making fool for the rest of winter. I have been in the habit of using my Kitchenaid for the kneading process but am now completely motivated to manually kneading by hand. After watching the Principals of baking vids, I have a few questions.
You often say that your kitchen is running warm and I am not clear what temp that might be. My kitchen is almost always 21C. Would you call that warm or cool? I also note that you use a wood butcher block like worktop. As mush I would love to replace a portion of the granite countertop I have with wood, I cannot afford the divorce. Is granite ok for or should I put together a big wood platform for kneading the dough? Final question (for now): I will often (especially during colder months) use the oven as a proof box with only the light on. Would you think that to run the risk of over-proofing the dough? Should I just let it hang out on the counter a little longer rather than “cheat” with the oven light?
Thanks for all this. You rock.
Hey! Cheers for the kind words :) My kitchen is around 23 - 24C most of the time. 21C is a good temperature for hand kneading. The granite worktop will keep the dough temperature down. I would suggest try using room temperature water in this case and see how it goes. Even when my kitchen is 19 - 22C I never place the dough in a warm area to proof. Room temp is enough.
How about if you add cold water I am talking about 3C. Will that effect the result in the end
If your kitchen is really warm, then you should use cold water even if it is 3C. During mixing it will warm up regardless. Sometimes bakers add ice into the bowl when mixing dough with a machine to control the temperature. Dry yeast is more sensitive to cold water than fresh yeast in my experience, but if you mix everything right away it should cause no issues.
Will I be able to ferment bread properly with an air temperature of 35°C, 42°C if you account for humidity, it's really hot here in the Philippines but I'm also curious of giving baking a try
Long time fan by the way haha, I'm just building a budget so I could buy a decent convection oven so I could start baking 😊
You can. It will ferment very quickly though. If I had to bake in such a hot environment O would stick to cold fermentation. Here's some inspiration th-cam.com/play/PLJ97q0PY0sXKY-oq1rQS3fUiSCfClW5N3.html&si=nYjZJ48nhW6kJfUS ✌️😎
@@ChainBaker haha thanks for the link! I could imagine why local bakers in our community always do all their prep work in the wee hours of the morning. It's just that it's too hot here during summer. Plus no one practices bulk fermentation here longer than 4 hours. Artisanal baking is still a new trend here in the Philippines.
@cfespenilla8235 the high temperature definitely makes it more challenging. And cold fermentation requires fridge space which is not always an option. But for home baking you can definitely utilize it 😉
In your formula to achieve the desired temperature after mixing, you said 25 is what you desire. Where does the 25 degrees C come from? Is it experience that it's close to the present ambient room temperature or is a due to the mixture or what?
It's the optimal temperature at which yeast ferments slowly enough to develop good flavour and produces enough gas to rise the dough.
Quick question , from a newbie. You explained and showed everything EXCEPT
EXCEPT the internal temperature of a fresh baked loaf of bread?? Why not?
Does it matter?? How to control for this?? .... Waiting ..... THX.
94C or 200F
@@ChainBaker Nice. OK, Ive got it nailed here in USA.
Thx. Well done.
Please experiment with 30 C ambient temperature for tropical climates I think we may need to add near freezing water !!
Yeah near frozen water and cold flour. I will leave those experiments up to you.
Like my Ohm's Law 😄👍
Hi , I had to go out but wanted to make a loaf so decided to try and retard my dough so I used cold water and chilled my bowl, Dough temp at the end of mixing 21.8 kitchen 17 degrees. After 4hrs I returned and the dough had only doubled in size when I came to pre shape the dough became very active and then after 15 mins I final shaped, then the ferment slowed down I let it proof for an hour but it still didn’t look great . The bread came out good in the end but I know it’s gonna be a bit denser than normal, Why did the dough decelerate on my final shapeing , thanks again for all your great videos
Perhaps it over fermented a little. Or maybe the temperature in your kitchen dropped a little?
@@ChainBaker thank you . Bread you think you understand it and then you get thrown a curve ball “love it “
Do these calculations change based on the different ratios of water and flour?
Not really. The formula is not that precise, but it works well enough with most dough.
Very interesting, but I miss the importance of this control of dough temperature. I ferment my dough for 6 hours (with two intermediate short kneads, every two hours) and the dough will in any case revert to a temperature which is room temperature + heat generated by the fermentation (around 2°C).
It's just a measure for consistency. Not always necessary for sure.
Thank you. Very helpful. One question though. Why is it that all the recipes call for body temperature (Luke warm) water? By your explanation this is far too hot.
Thank you! 🙏 Those recipes are usually written by people who themselves don't quite understand the principles of baking. Temperature control is extremely important and using body temperature water should only be done in the middle of winter when your kitchen is cold and even then sometimes that temperature may be too high. We want a controlled fermentation. Making bread fully rise in one hour is far too quick and does not develop any flavour and leaves the flour almost raw. Hope this helps 😊
Wow, almost revelational. Thank you so much. Will experiment with this new knowledge!
Do check out some more videos in the Principles of Baking playlist on my channel. I guarantee that you will find more useful info there. And I have more than 150 recipes that use those same principles 😉
In hot dough method temp of dough is maintained at?
What is ‘hot dough method’?
Your dough should never be hot otherwise it will ferment too quickly 👍🏻
Actually I'm Completing My Course Of Hotel Management And I Want To Become A Chef
Do you ever use sourdough starter/liven?
My sourdough playlist - th-cam.com/play/PLJ97q0PY0sXIaCJ8ZkdNAi0hBSAuAN4R0.html
Why is it important to control the dough temperature? For me my ambient room temperature and groundwater temperature are about 30 degrees - what would happen if I don't use cooled water? what's the problem with fast fermentation?
Quick fermentation = less flavour. Also, a bread made with longer fermentation is more easily digestible and better for our stomachs.
Hi I have a question - I am from India. It's winter right now so during the day it's about 24-29C but for most months of the year the daytime temperature is at least 35C. I did the calculation and I go into negatives. I can't use ice, can I? :( Is there any way to work around this? Should I freeze a pair of gloves and use them for kneading? Won't be good for my hands 😢
You can freeze your flour.
@@ChainBaker Oh great idea! Thank you so much!
I would like to prepare dough for ciabatta bread in the evening and bake it in the morning when I get up. How should I do it ?
Refrigerate it after shaping and then bake it straight from the fridge. You must use less yeast in your recipe otherwise it may over proof. I would suggest making a couple of small test batches and seeing what works best. I have never actually cold proofed ciabatta. Another option would be to refrigerate the dough just before bulk proof is finished. Then you can divide it on the next day, leave it for the final rise and then bake.
@@ChainBaker THANK YOU, thank you for your response. Frequently have friends staying with me, and for some time thought that it would be very memorable for them to wake up in the morning to the smell of freshly baked bread. Love your channel, it got everything I was looking for. Have wonderful holiday. :)))
Let me know how it turns out ;)
Hi, love your channel, it is so full of valuable information that I've subscribed from multiple accounts.
However, in this video I was wishing to find comparisons with making/proofing bread at different temperatures.
Being able to see the difference with proofing at low temperatures for long time versus proofing at high temperatures for a short time.
On my side, my variables are way too hard to control to be able to test on my own.
I live in a house heated by a wood stove/oven. In the winter, when I wake up in the morning, my house can be between 0⁰C and 15⁰C. How fast it will warm up and to what temperature depends on many factors.
It is all fine for me as I enjoy the surprise of having a different bread everything I make it. Since I don't bake commercially, I don't need consistency.
Still, I'm a geek for knowledge and information.
The higher the temperature the quicker it will ferment. The quicker it ferments the less flavour it develops. Here is a video on slow fermentation - th-cam.com/video/-hcY6xituuU/w-d-xo.html
Perhaps it could come in handy :)
What about the temperature of the work table, would that be a factor?
It does affect final temperature but I never use it as part of the calculation. Once you've kneaded a few doughs on that table you should know whether it makes the dough warmer or colder.
@@ChainBaker awesome brother! I make Steam buns for my business and sometimes they come out deflated and some are perfect, would you have any suggestions why? Thanks
@ChefIsaac925 perhaps they're a bit over proofer? Try steaming sooner.
it would be neat to see the results of baking a too cold dough, a too hot dough and one that is just right.
th-cam.com/video/29PScgqX9WA/w-d-xo.html 😉
If I keep my yeast in the freezer or fridge, does it have to come to room temperature before use?
I think it should be ready to use right from the freezer.
Hi, bro my room temperature 31c flour 30c. As per your guidance 60-61 =-1.
I used ice with water but window pane test came 35min. I used stand mixer. I enclosed my burger bun recipes
Flour 11%protien
Water 65%
Salt 2%
Sugar 7.5%
Milk powder 2.5%
Shortening 6%
Improver 1%
Gluten 1%
Absorbic acid.0.3%
Kindly do the needful.
Forget the windowpane test and all will be fine. There is no need to mix any dough for that long.
@chainbaker. I have watched this video numerous times and I am not getting an understanding. What is the purpose of controlling the water temperature? Obviously you won’t use ice water or boiling water. I went to culinary school back in 2015 and I am a recent graduate of pastry arts. I always test the temperature on my wrist, which is about 80 degrees, and I have never had an issue. I have used room temp water and still didn’t have any issues. Like you I like to keep things as simple as possible and I hate math, but I want to learn all avenues if possible. So what are some of the failures for not doing this calculation and controlling the DDT/water temperature. Secondly, what do you do when using a proof box?
It's about controlling the fermentation. Using warm water will make the dough rise very rapidly. Flavour is developed over time so is good texture. A dough that is too warm also risks being over fermented. I pretty much always use cold water. A proof box can be a great tool. I have never felt the need to use one though ;D
@@ChainBaker I’ve used a proof box at work but I don’t have one at home. I sometimes use the oven or my food dehydrator. Here is Alabama during the summer there is really no need for it because of the temperature. Thanks for answering my question.
Wouldn’t you need to take account of the quantities of the flour and water as well when doing the calculations ? For example, if I have 500g of flour at 24C and add 30g of water at 10C then that’s not going to have the same effect on the combined temperature as adding 300g of water at 10C.
I think it kind of equals out because of the different densities of those ingredients. And it never really goes into such extremes. I'm sure there are more sophisticated formulas that are being used in bakeries, but this simple version works perfectly fine for home baking.
@@ChainBaker yeah that makes sense.
Ha, my example was a bit extreme, mixing a 6% hydration would definitely be a challenge ;-).
Learning a huge amount from the videos by the way - excellent content, many thanks for taking the time to put them together 🙏🏼
Thank you so much Nick! I'm glad you're finding my videos useful 😊
I have always thought adding salt directly to the yeast affected fermentation, is this not true?
It does if you let it sit together for a long time. If you mix your ingredients right away, then it will not cause any issues.
Also if you want fast cool stick a ice cube and stir until melted.
According to this, if my kitchen is at 17ºC and the flour is at 17ºC , the water would have to be at piping hot 41 ºC to obtain a dough at 25ºC . Wouldn't 41ºC kill the yeast?
I think your calculation might be inaccurate. 20C water should do it.
Hello, sir i have a question what if your dough takes more than 6 minutes? 😅 because i work with big amount of dough , it takes me more than 10 minutes kneading the dough with a stand mixer
It will get warmer. You can use cooler water to make up for it.
Omigawd! I hadn't even thought of all these considerations. I just wing it, and then when it all goes to hell in a handbasket, I scratch my head and mutter "what the ever-loving f#@%?!!" 😂 Now, thanks to you, I know better.
Does all bread dough have to prove at around 24-25 °C?
The dough temperature can be lowered to extend proofing time for sure. A longer slower fermentation can be good for some breads. But remember the longer a bread ferments the more sour it will be and the more crusty it will become. So if you’re making sweet soft cinnamon buns then perhaps a quick fermentation would be better.
When it comes to the other end of the spectrum of temperature I would not recommend going over 26C. The dough will just ferment too quickly and you’ll risk over fermenting it 👍🏻
@@ChainBaker, makes perfect sense. Thank you! 🙏
Same here! Now that I know what to aim for and what's my environment ( very hot summer in my country at the moment ), I can adapt accordingly with my preferment.
Sometimes when it's really warm I just refrigerate everything from the water to the flour and anything else I may be adding to my dough.
good but doesn't it assume that the water and flour are of equal quantities if they are going to contribute equally the same to the final temperature...? what happens when dough goes above 30?
Even when they're not of equal quantity, it always turns out more or less correct. The warmer the dough the quicker it will ferment the higher the chance of over proofing.
thanks i used this technique for another type of dough which needs good gluten development but i realised that my doughneeder machine was partly cooking it (30C) and thus ending up with the dough tearing...i have now started using freezing water and monotoring the temp with great success thanks@@ChainBaker
Real baker here.
You teaching how was taught twenty year
I have been making bread in a 34° Celsius baking room and adding hot water to the mix...
Great, if that works for you 👍
I just toss a cup of hot water into the oven along with the dough
Works every time for me
What if my air temp is 38⁰ and flour 38⁰, how cold is my water?
Keep the flour in the fridge and use cold water. You can also use less yeast.
Thanks mate@@ChainBaker
_____cookies gives better control over shape and uniform size
I’m sure it does 😆
I follow your math except for the part where you'd take 20 and multiply by 3. I understand the thtee variables, and I follow how you got to the number 20, but I don't understand why you'd want to multiply these numbers together
I did not create this formula. It's commonly used and it works. That it 😎✌️
@@ChainBaker thanks for explaining!
Holy crumby loaf , Batman. How did humanity ever get this far without scientific measuring
of grams and electronic digital thermometers? Lucky we are alive as a species.
Its a miracle.
You only have to measure if you want consistent results.
@@ChainBaker 💯
Thats instant yeast correct?
Yes.
I mean, clearly your calculations came out correctly but I guess this is because water and dough ratio are similar every time? The "more correct" formula would need to take the ratio between water/flour into account wouldn't it? Let's say hypothetical you use very little hot water and lots of cold flour the overall temperature would tend to be cold right? But I guess if your technique works it's easier that way👍
I commercial bakeries I bet they have formulas that take many other things into account to get a precise temperature. But for the home baker and for most breads this should work most of the time. The ratio of flour to water is generally never that extreme since hydration is usually between 60% - 80% in most cases. I like to keep it simple :)
@@ChainBaker exactly :) Why make it complicated if it works xD
What's wrong, or the problem with using a ten degrees higher temperature than 25 ?
Dough ferments too rapidly. Does not develop good flavour or texture. Risks over proofing.
@@ChainBaker Thanks for responding. No problem regarding too rapid fermentation. I use very little yeast and let the dough ferment for half an hour while still rather moist. Add more flour and wait one hour. Then adding the final amount of flour when forming the breads. Leave them to rise for 30 minutes before baking. Endresult very good flavour and texture.
Try a recipe that requires several hours of fermentation and you'll see quite a difference.
@@ChainBaker How many hours? Mine only takes 3. Plus kneading and baking (at 175, 150, 125 and 100 degrees for one and a half hour) of course.
Sir , can you give subtitle please? Sorry my english so bad
I only speak english and latvian so I can't help much 😄
What I can suggest is you could copy the text from my website into google translate and then you will at least be able to see the written article 👍
@@ChainBaker he's saying he will have an easier time reading English than listening to it because his English isn't that great. English subtitles would help him.