Whenever the topic of new character power creep comes up I am reminded about how Blizzard tried being conservative with new character balance in Heroes of the Storm for a while and found that if a character was not obviously good right away then nobody played them and they didn't even get enough data to tell what was wrong with them
That actually happens in Smite too. The devs make the character stronger than average on release usually. The characters then get played a lot so they get a lot of data and know what to tone down. Whenever a character is considered below average, you rarely see them in matches and it usually takes them a few patches to get them up to par.
And that's how Cagliostro got buffed into war crime tier despite being great already. This might be where low tier heroes contribute to the ecosystem. Everyone knew Alex was ass because there was a small group of very dedicated and very good players trying to win with him and they just couldn't compete. So the buffs he got were massive but ultimately fair because Capcom knew the character really needed them.
@@Time2GoHam1995 I remember they said this awhile back and really doubled down on it in 2020 when the had back to back weak god releases. I believe it was Mulan and baba yaga that were both released quite weak to the rest of the cast and I think from then on they just started releasing gods a bit overtuned to get proper feedback.
About power creep, there's also the fact that people have been playing and learning shit about old characters for months, maybe even years, so if you add a new character and after trying it out they seem even with the rest of the cast, it's fairly likely that they're slightly overturned to compensate for the lack of labbing time and experience from the testers. It's like with HC, everyone said he was mid tier at launch. That's probably what ArcSys saw in their testing, but now that the character is more fleshed out we can see him shooting people to death left and right. And it sort of only gets worse, because the more time passes the better people get at using the old characters.
It’s also why we shouldn’t be quick to demands nerfs. I can think of many games fighting shooters etc. where a character was deemed way too strong when released. Clearly busted. Needs nerfs NOW!…. 7 months later they’ve been buffed to be better then they are at launch with no significant nerfs at that time because we realize “no they weren’t very good”. It takes time to figure this stuff out. A lot less time than it used to for games with the internet but still it takes a bit to figure out how far the rabbit hole goes so forming opinions on something you can’t immediately bring up evidence for is pretty stupid for the first couple of weeks.
Situations like this are why u gotta understand the system first before u really start throwing characters out there, so u know what does and doesn't work
That literally works both ways bud. And that shit happened with like 4 other characters too. Would you believe it, people are stupid and refuse to think for themselves? Everyone thought chipp was funny low health guy until asian players had to say that he is top 3.
This goes the other way too though. Now, a couple months later, HC is still considered top tier but not as strong as when he was first starting to be called broken. He hasn't actually gotten weaker, but everyone else has learned the matchup and gotten better at fighting against him. I think the HC players picked up the techs faster than other players picked up the matchup, but now it's evened out a little bit and I'm interested to see where the character goes in further updates and over more time.
At the same time its really sad to see the people that labbed out a tech for a certain chaeacter for months just for a new one to do it way easier and better
The thing that makes me angry is when you look at the character selection screen and you have like 10 characters to play and 50+ dlc locked. The fact that to play a game that gets dlc day one I need to pay 130$ is insane. And Im not even talking about the dlcs being tied to your account so even if you buy the game physically, you can't even go to a friend house with the dlc. As a collector, seeing an enormeous part of the game being downloadable only and never preserved is really sad and just encourages pirating over buying one cd with everything on it. If at least they did a complete physical edition when everything is released and you just have everything on the disc (updates, dlc ect.) like with Xrd Rev 2 or under night in birth exe CL-R for a normal game price it would be more interesting. With the dlcs we get these days, it's like we are an infinite suply of money that keeps buying overpriced stuff that are not generally worth it.
Yeah SFV has that problem really bad. You're telling me that there's like 50 characters in this game and I only get to play barely over a third of that? Gross.
@@king_acceler8755 SFV is even worse, because there are longtime base-roster characters locked behind DLC. Why the hell do I need to pay extra to play guile? It’s damn guile, he’s one of the main characters of the franchise.
@@harrylane4 I always found this criticism lame as hell. Just because you have this preconceived notion that Guile should be in the SF base roster doesn't mean he HAS to be. Incessantly asking for older characters that ALWAYS appear limits the potential of returning characters that are not as popular. Characters like Mika and Karin that hadn't turned up in 20 years should be prioritized because they make for more interesting additions. At least Guile fans had the solace of knowing he WOULD be in the game no doubt. Fans of less popular characters don't even have that and fellas really cared that Guile was literally the second dlc character. Like, oh no what a disaster.
Something small I would like to say is that I wish more character select screens remain as the Smash Bros Ultimate one, and I mean if you don't have the character it doesn't appear on screen taunting you behind a lock because you haven't or can't buy the DLC at the time. I understand they want you to buy them at some point but it makes me feel I own an incomplete game because I haven't paid for those extra characters that I may never end up playing as.
Over the years, i've noticed Power Creep is a universal thing across pretty much all games with updates. Hell, even tabletop RPGs like D&D5e and ESPECIALLY 3.5 have Power Creep. But I actually think that Power Creep is a little bit more than just "New character good, give money." There's a couple of reasons why it happens. One of the first reasons is due to expanding on a game's system. When a developer is making a game, they're in the process of still laying out the ground work for what it is. So naturally when the game is released, the developers can now make something new with the hindsight of how the game fully works. They can use that ground work and push what's possible now that they have the hindsight of the initial development. That's why new characters often have crazy systems and mechanics that base roster characters don't have. The second reason is appeal. Convincing people to buy a whole nother character for like 6 dollars a pop (or an entire seasons pass) Isn't always the easiest thing in the world(Unless your like a diehard fan, or a simp). When it comes to DLC, you really need to prove to people that the DLC is actually worth their time. How do you do that? Well, let's go back up to point 1. Developers can use the knowledge of the game to now make a character that breaks the boundaries of what we though was possible. This can add a whole new breath of life to the game as there's now a new character with new mechanics. That's shit's exciting! We get to see the game evolve right before our very eyes and we have new toys to play with. In a similar vain, sometimes it's better for a DLC character to be powerful to make people actually want to buy them. Who the fuck would wanna throw down 6-7 dollars for a character with the effectiveness of a wet sock? It would feel like a waste of money by that point. Overall, Power Creep is usually more of a byproduct of a game's lifespan, rather than a deliberate choice. I'm not saying that Power Creep isn't a problem. Trust me, there's still some pretty bad things that has come from Power Creep, but I also don't think it's the boogieman everyone says it is. There's been plenty of scenarios where a DLC character has Power Creep, but not to the point where it overshadows the rest of the cast. There's plenty of Fighting games (and just other games in general) where the base options are just a viable as they once were. Not to mention, there's moments where the DLC's creep causes the base characters to get buffs where they really need it. And sometimes Power Creep happens because the developers have been working on a product for so long that they just can't see the flaws anymore, even with testing. As long as Power Creep is kept somewhat under control, I don't mind it.
It's perfectly possible and not at all hard to make new content without powercreep, Blizzard did it with Heroes of the Storm for a time and they noticed competitive players just weren't that interested in these characters if they were just as good as the old ones So yeah I believe it just comes down to powercreep being intentional because money
I don't play fighting games as much as I'd like to because I don't have the willpower or time to learn how to play them properly but I always love how informative these videos are!
I miss when fighting games had unlockables wether that be cosmetics or new fighters that would motivate you to keep playing but now all that are locked behind a paywall dlc smh
For the power creep thing, it doesn’t seem that insane to me. In DBFZ, every season had 1 standout strong character. Season 1 had bardock, season 2 had GT. Season 3 had 2 with UI and SSJ4. Now there is L21. 5 out of 20 characters being top tier on release doesn’t seem crazy. For GBVS, none of the dlc in season 1 were top tier. Belial was though. Idk about the characters after him. In Strive, the first 2 dlc are considered on the weak side, HC is top tier, while baiken and Testament seem average. Tekken is the odd one here as about 1/3rd of their dlc is top tier. All of them are considered at least decent though. This isn’t new though, nor is it specific to dlc. Even in the older Tekken games, whenever they added new characters, like 1/3rd or 1/4th of them would end up super strong. Even in T7, the new characters that are on the base roster were ridiculous when they were released but they got toned down before we got them. Look at arcade Akuma and Kazumi. Tekken’s seems the worst though because it had 2 really really strong dlc characters back to back, on top of the rest being decent at worst.
Honestly, you cant blame them for beefing up DLC characters when they want people to buy them without hesitation. It can create inconsistencies with balance but with latest update technology, they can carelessly release overtuned characters to rake up money then balance them once they see results. Now obviously this isn't being abused alot but there are definitely instances in games where companies purposefully tamper with their DLC content to give players a sense of urgency that you need to get it or you'll be at a massive disadvantage.
ALL DLC characters should be available in training mode (even with just a single or maybe some boring, custom made palette with "DEMO" pasted all over it) so people can lab against them (as well as maybe try them out to see if they even want to buy them).
On the Tekken 7 Frame Data topic, I still don't understand why game devs are so stingy about it Wanna know how much I hear people praise games with good frame data tools? All the time. Wanna know how much I hear people praise games for NOT having frame data tools? I don't.
I played in Arcades for a little while but geez it was like the very tail end of them for me. I've only see genuine classic arcade machines like 3 to 4 times in my life. Everything else has been in modern places that emulate arcades.
I can't imagine not seeing all the arcade machines at every Movie theater, Skating Rink, in the front of old Walmarts, General Arcades, etc. I feel I only caught the tail end of the Arcade scene but they were still a pretty big deal in my local area up until 04-05.
A couple additions. Fighting games are starting to play with FOMO. Buying the season pass will get you access to playing the character early. Thus making anyone who has not bought the pass need to resort to seeing others streaming. It felt bad when I was so hype for Roshi, only to have to live vicaralouly through streamer for a few days. The reason this happened is the other issue I have. Devs will announce a season pass but not what characters are in it. So we end up purchasing the hope you get the characters you want. I rely on leaks for what DLC will be but those are not always right. I just want Jam in strive. She would fit perfect. Instead DNF gets Jam's Cousin.
When KOF XV revealed its team pass and showed gameplay of the first team and revealed the second team. There were people that thought Snk was purposely withholding "finished" characters (They weren't) to sell them. So in regards to the knowing the characters in a season pass thing. It's dammed if you do or dammed if you don't thing.
If your morals allow you, just pirate the game to lab the DLC characters. Making them unplayable in training is something that's just unforgivable and also kinda stupid since you can't even try them out to see if you're interested in buying them or not.
Another issue with paid DLC is that if someone wants to try out a character, but they discover they don't even like the character, they won't have any way to return the character they wanted to try out. It really prohibits a lot of players from discovering characters that they will enjoy outside the base roster and can be absolutely stupid.
SFV occasionally lets you play DLC characters in training without playing them, and I don’t know why this isn’t something you’re *always* allowed to do, no matter what, in every game.
There's a weird paradoxical nature when it comes to title updates and dlc add ons. Because although you were essentially paying for the same game again, it felt the character and mechanics were more naturally integrated/balanced than just buying dlc down the road. Like you said it feels like devs were getting ahead themselves when designing some dlc characters and not taking into account base game. Looking at happy chaos he feels he wasn't designed with strive in mind, a character with the ability to zone so heavily in very neutral ground based game. Speaking optimistically you can tell devs wanted people to make use of his whole kit but people chose the "cheesy way" of zoning because there's no penalty for it and strive's system heavily favor out ranging your opponents. And that also goes for weaker dlc characters, which are usually characters that have such weird gimmicks in comparison to the main cast. Again using strive look at jack-o/goldlweis both characters based around set play when strive favors more neutral based fighting styles.
Each updated version of old fighting games had new story and endinga for all of the characters. Imagine that happening with modern fighting gamea which mostly don't bother adding endings or any story for dlc fighters.
I was once told there was a concpet along the lines of "brain, heart, and body" when it comes to describing fighting game players. Once I also watched a video on Brian and heart players... but not body players...
Haven’t watch the video so I don’t know if you go into it but, DLC MUST start being free in training mode. With the FGC growing and more people getting into it, it’s needs to be a little more accessible for everyone. If you can’t lab a against a character and end up running into them in some sort of tourney. I’m sorry but if you don’t own them to lab against/play as, don’t take notes before hand, or sit down and learn with someone else (long sets for experience). Your fucked, and it’s not even on you.
Conspiracy theory but I think the hype for a dlc character can also be a reason for power creep. The devs see hype for a character and overtune it so the casual audience wont feel like they paid for a "bad" character. Take Leroy in tekken 7 as an example, he was most hyped up dlc, you'd see talks of him everywhere before release. Heck even T Pain did a cosplay. When he was released he was broken beyond belief. It was awful and even with patches he's still a bit of a problem. Basically a pay to win character thats super easy to play coz if he was actually balanced the casual audience would be disappointed that they cant win by pressing a button.
Bayonetta in Smash 4, Sora in Ultimate, Lab Coat 21 in DBFZ I feel like the sort of "court of public opinion" has a massive effect on fighting game DLC, but *especially* for characters that are extremely wanted by the communities of the games. Bayo and Sora were literally a result of the popular vote, while at least I remember wanting and hearing others wanting to play as the good version of Android 21 in DBFZ (no idea if she was the most wanted by the end or not) On top of that, it seems that devs are way more likely to absolutely destroy game balance with the final character they're going to give out. A mix of limited remaining updates compared to lab time as well as (I assume) devs no longer feeling as inclined to restrain themselves since it's the last character they're making.
I think Brawlhalla does a great job at monetizing itself, you start with a base roster that changes every week and can eventually get all characters with in-game currency (or buy all current and future characters for 20$) When it comes to training mode not only can you pick all characters, both for player and dummy, but you can also choose any cosmetic you want to see if you like it.
I like that you can just grind _really_ hard to get the DLC characters instead of just having to outright buy it. It’s not only a good way to keep the player on the game but also a good way to gain money, I’m sure like half the playerbase is _just_ impatient enough to just buy the damn thing instead of meeting unlock requirements. It’s a win/win for the game and the player.
Rushdown revolts a free and real good Platform Fighter too that has things in place for some real good monetization down the line their are custom emotes from streamers you can spam on screen as a Taunt mid fight its so silly XD
I bought guilty gear strive without any of dlcs and once i found out i can't play 3 character i would like to play and few others i'd like to try out.. i was disaplointed and now i gotta pay more for dlcs that will cost even more than the game.. What a bummer, man 😞
Bandai 100% intentionally make DLC characters strong. If Leroy and Fahkumram were accidents, then no one should ever buy another Tekken game because the devs would actually have to have zero idea how Tekken works to release those characters in their launch state. Launch Leroy was the 3d equivalent of a 2d character having an invincible dp that's plus on block.
@@rorrim0 Many aspects, but the gist of it is he had several moves that had a similar function to an existing character's move, but were better for the most part.
9:43 “Tekken has never had DLC before and charged for it. This isn’t really directed at Capcom, I have always said this, but I see the characters and their move sets as chess pieces - they are essential items necessary in the game and we would never sell any of those individually.” Katsuhiro Harada 2012 While its more characters he's talking about, but the mention of chess pieces, and learning how they move, it seems a litt- coughhypocritecogh. Sorry, there was something caught my throat there.
I wish fighting games today get released complete, with no content cut out to be sold as DLC. Put out a nice complete package and it'll sell well. Essentially what fighting game devs are doing is making their titles pay to win if you're playing online. Why does the fgc not stand up to this nonsense? Why do they do nothing?
No, season passes are overall more expensive than title updates because at least with a new title, you can just wait until everything is released and buy the latest version secondhand. Season passes almost NEVER get discounted, and if they do, it's not significant enough. I ain't gonna pay half or more of the base game's MSRP just for 5 new characters!
Its also a problem that these games are still full priced while having the majority of the games roster be paid. Sfv is almost insulting, because you get like 16 characters as a base roster, some of which are incredibly niche picks like fang and necalli, while 29 characters, almost double the amount of base characters, are paid dlc. So if you dont pay up you arent experiencing about 2 thirds of the game
You could unlock the first 2.5 seasons of characters just by playing the single-player. You didn't have to buy anything. And if you played consistently online, You would have enough to buy the rest of season 3.
Smash 4 DLC and patches are probably one of the best examples of powercreep out there. Not only were most of the DLC characters horribly unbalanced and way stronger than most of the base roster, most of the top tier characters in said base roster were actually *nerfed* over time, making the gap in power between DLC and base roster even larger than normal.
Power creep is a very real thing and its awful, but if they make the dlc character that is top tier but incredibly hard like happy chaos there should be absolutely no problem with that
I like you so im glad this vid didn't turn into whining about happy chaos being top tier as i am partly a hc main so i would know he's hard and only the 0.1% of players that play him like they spent every waking second since his launch learning and playing him can actually take full advantage of his kit, the only reason hes top tier in most peoples tier lists anyway is because of zoning hc which only pathetic miserable users do but I don't want my character gutted for that
@@RealBigMitch Honestly guilty gear strive is not AT ALL a game where you can say "DLC characters are power creep!!!" Like, goldlewis is the most balanced character in the game, jack-o is just bad, and test and baiken are just okay-- HC are just good
Look i don’t think anyone wants to delete happy chaos from the game, but if he’s deemed overpowered by the best players, he’s probably overpowered, that and he’s complained about casually too, so he’s 100% at least getting touched next patch.
What happened to street fighter x tekken was a fucking travesty and I'll never be able to get over it. That game, especially with the 2013 update, was actually really solid
I think dlc it's one of the things that makes new players not play the game. Yes, skins/Battle pass/loot box are the cancer of free to play, but at least that doesn't add to the gameplay compared to new characters.
I bought base SF5 the day before they released a "title update" with all of the 40 (or whatever) DLC characters included. That was the first, and last time, I will ever touch Street Fighter again. That shit pissed me off so much. There were like 60 characters and I had to pay $5 each for like 45 of them, the day before they all came included. Honestly fuck DLC in fighting games. It really keeps me from playing. I had a lot of fun with Tekken and DBFZ but when you get into a game a year late and you aren't allowed to play half of the characters unless you shill $80, it kind of discourages you to play.
I think there's also the prejudice thing. Like, no matter how bad the DLC character is, he can still be hated just for being DLC (i think it also has to do with lab, which is reasonable).
@@steezuschrist0999Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur 6 DLCs are a prime example of this BS. Kunimitsu and 2B for example are absolutely OP compared to the basic roster characters, and it's pretty disgusting they make the DLC more powerful on purpose.
I hope Project L changes this paid character DLC thing because in all other Riot games you can unlock all characters for free. I don't like how you don't have basic access to a cool character which is typically broken on launch easily. I think paying for cool skins and cosmetics is a lot better than locking playable aspects of the game behind a pay wall.
That's most likely what's gonna happen. Look at LoR, changing the toxic card packs system into an open wild card one WITH WEEKLY LIMITS so that you can have everything for free and noone who spends money is really ahead of you.
For what it's worth, even going back to the Sega Genesis Super Street Fighter 2 era, the "updates" were never full price. You'd never pay "another 60$". The original version would be full price, then the updated version would be usually around half the price(give or take 5 bucks). For instance I specifically remember purchasing my copy of Super Street Fighter 2 for 30$ when the average brand new game cost 50$. And Super Street Fighter 4 cost 30$ when Vanilla SFIV had cost 60$(and every version after super cost only 15$ and used the same disk as super). This goes on and on for every game I can think of.(previous Guilty Gears titles, Blazblue, Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 Ultimate etc...)
And that's before considering what it might've replaced: unlockables. I don't know about you, but there was a certain feeling to discovering more characters and other stuff as you kept playing the game that I really miss. There's nothing like thinking you figured out the game only for it to throw you another curveball in the form of a new character or a secret fight you didn't expect, something I feel was lost in the transition to online gaming.
For Honor, despite being so terrible, made DLC characters right : you can use them in training mode as much as you want, so you are able to see what they can do, and if a new character is one you want to play, you can then buy it.
I actually think this is a super good idea. Let people mess around with them in training, and also have an in-game currency thay you can grind if you want to.
Some companies don't reduce the price of games with time, but will have sales from time to time. Not an fighting game but ... total war warhammer 1(2016) and 2 with no dlc are still 60$ when there is no sale and there is a tw:warhammer 3. No, this is not a defence, i'm just providing information.
i mostly hate the inevitability of it all like when someone openly disliked the sf6 leak roster so someone else said something along the line of "it'll be expanded by dlc releases" it feels like starter rosters are just made with dlc like with fighterz
and this is more of personally outing myself but I'm in no way good at any given fighter and like to play like 4 at once so I'm never good enough to justify spending double the money on one game for new characters
New to fighting games but these are issues in a lot of games, the only game which imo does it fair is an RTS called Forts, where only the host of a match needs the DLC and then everyone can use it. But power creep is in all games, I was talking about Star Citizen lately with a friend and he also mentions it, when a ship first comes out it's overpowered, for example the new fighter is basically a rack for guns, these ships then get nerfed down the line but for 2 patches after release of the ship you can't buy it in universe
A special mention to the NRS model of charging you for the pass and then later releasing the "complete" edition for $60, which in it of itself is more economic than the combined price to the game on release plus it's various passes. Seriously screw you NRS.
NRS is among the studios and companies on my "list" where I won't purchase anything they make outright with the exception of sales of 75% or more if there's anything I really want - which doesn't really apply to NRS games because I really couldn't care less about MK or Injustice anymore.
That´s the case with every video game not just NRS or fighting games. For example, Elden Ring will probably be getting some DLC in the future and there will be a "Complete or Game of the Year Edition" down the line, with all the content bundled in, for a cheaper price. Strive is getting a Starter Edition 2022 with all the season 1 content in it and when season 2 is finished it´s very likely that there will be another edition. That´s just how the industry works.
@@SlowLearner-z3h No it isn't. Its a major issue primarily with NRS. For the most part other companies have been pulling back on the practice. Also, for future reference just because something is seen as " part of the industry" doesn't mean it's alright.
@@Tokumastu1 People want to have additional content for the games they like and especially fighting game players want the devs to support their games for years with additional characters, costumes, stages and balance patches. There is nothing wrong with that if the players feel that they are getting their money´s worth. If you don´t like that´s fine but not everybody sees it the same way as you. Edit: There was huge uproar when NRS announced that there will be no more DLC for MK11 after "just" one and a half years of the games release.
A couple additions. Fighting games are starting to play with FOMO. Buying the season pass will get you access to playing the character early. Thus making anyone who has not bought the pass need to resort to seeing others streaming. It felt bad when I was so hype for Roshi, only to have to live vicaralouly through streamer for a few days. The reason this happened is the other issue I have. Devs will announce a season pass but not what characters are in it. So we end up purchasing the hope you get the characters you want. I rely on leaks for what DLC will be but those are not always right. I just want Jam in strive. She would fit perfect. Instead DNF gets Jam's Cousin.
While power creep is real, i think it's wild how quickly people make points that the dlc characters beat on the original roster, and completely ignor that a lot of the time it's because the characters got nerfed into the ground before the dlc lol DBFZ is a perfect example, and even then something of the base roster is still high tier. Cammy has been busted for SFV's entire lifespan lol
It's not only power creep in that the characters are stronger, but also in that the old characters simply don't have as many things as the new characters. For example who the heck picks Trunks for his flip and not SSJ4 Gogeta for his dragon ball mechanics, instant kill, etc.
@@sorrydudebros but isn't the point of a base roster to be the simplest expressions of the games arcetypes, and the DLC characters to be riffs/iterations on the formula. That's the whole point. Additional characters are supposed to be unique and interesting to encourage you to stray from ol'reliable. Less options also does not mean worse. Like i said, look at cammy. She's debatably the most mechanically simple character in the game, and she's done mothing but dominate the whole lifespan of SFV and has nothing but effective tools. More tools doesn't always mean good tools, look at characters like zamasu. Tons of tools, most of them are trash.
@@HellecticMojo why in the world was he not base roster lol meanwhile people are upset the world warriors are all base roster for SF6. The fgc needs to make it's mind up
I hate when my favorite fighting game doesn't have my main in it cuz it means I paying 60$ +the character I actually wanted to play and waiting God knows how long for them to be released.
If Project L introduces characters in the same manner that League does, it’s yet another way that Riot is going to accidentally modernize the genre. Whether you like Riot or not, the game’s eventual release is looking to be something that will be good for every game in the genre
The problem with dlc characters is basically what you said. They just do more, leaving very little they struggle with. And they also have to add "fun and unique" (bs) mechanics to them.
This is killing guilty gear for me. I don’t have any of the dlc characters but everyone I’m fighting is using them because they’re just that much better than the base game roster
Even though DLC practices are a problem nowadays, some games at least try to give players some kind of deal (good or bad). With Fighting games, there is no deal. They are 60$, with FOMO (Season passes) and technically P2W...
I bought GGST a couple days ago and one of the biggest reasons to why i bought the game was because of how cool of a character happy chaos is (and because his theme goes extremely hard). turns out he is a DLC character but at least he got me into buying the game and now i am a proud gio main
I think letting players experiment with a dlc character in training mode would only encourage them to get the DLC. I'd certainly tread cautiously buying extra content for a game I already bought if I wasn't 100% sure I'd enjoy it. I think players would be much more open to getting the dlc for a particular character if they were given a chance to play around with them and get a feel for their motions and combos in training mode before buying.
I would much rather have dlc characters I can earn or that are straight up free and microctramsactions that have no impact on the gameplay. The advantage of skins is that you choose whether or not to support the game by playing then.
I have a similar issue with not being able to try the dlc characters. It's less a labbing issue and just being able to get feel by playing the character myself. Personally seeing the character through videos by other players isn't enough for me, I'm very a 'try before I buy" type of guy.
Btw in Street Fighter IV's case, anything after Super Street Fighter IV came as paid DLC for a smaller price for the owners of SSFIV. That model was actually kinda neat since those updates came with the characters they wanted to add for a price like 15~20 dollars. I kinda miss that... kinda...
GekkoSquirrel: "nowadays it's extremely common for games to get patches and updates on the first day that they're out to fix glitches that the developers couldn't find" me, QA Tester at a video game publisher, looking at all the known bug tickets still open when we ship the game: "pfff hahaha, you wish, more like "to fix known glitches past the game's production deadlines"" I mean sure unexpected day 1 major bugs sometimes appear but nearly every studio keep developing the game between the 1.0 release candidate (that has to be locked quite some time before the release because the console builders/platform holders needs to validate it) and their actual release date.
a lil gripe with dlc characters, if theyre in the story mode they should be in the base game. Lookin at you happy chaos and jacko. at least thats my take, feel free to grill me if im wrong
I often forget that NRS did skins that wy because I'm on PC and just used an unlocker. I have spent truly hundreds of hours playing dress up in that game. every character has like 70+ skins, and then 3 'gear slots' such as raiden's hat/staff/pendant. so that's a skin plus 3x50+ choices to modify that skin ... and I played with every possible mix on every character. it was almost as fun as the actual game. uhhhhh I lost the point I wanted to make. oh yeah, sell me the skins I'll pay for em, just don't make me cross my fingers opening chests for hundreds of hours, I'll play something else.
Late, but you forgot one thing: Y'know how a lot of driving games (like NFS, Forza, Gran Turismo and more recently, The Crew) that have real life brands like Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Toyota, Lamborghini, BMW, Ford etc. get delisted from digital stores all the time because of expiring car/music licenses? The same thing will happen to fighting games (and all the DLCs) once they get delisted from sale, meaning that characters like Bridget and Goldlewis in Strive will become unplayable unless you've already purchased said characters. (Unless if ArcSys decides to take away your copy of Strive like what Ubisoft did to people who bought The Crew) (Doubly so in crossover games like BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle now that one of the companies that worked on the game, Rooster Teeth has closed this month) This has already happened to fighting games already, with examples being Mortal Kombat 2011, older SoulCalibur games and Jump Force. Practices like this only: A. Encourage more people to pirate since piracy is basically the only way to access said DLC characters once that happens. and B. Provide more legal ammo towards Ross Scott's (aka Accursed Farms) Stop Killing Games campaign to stop publishers from destroying games people paid for.
These characters that are DLC should be unlockable within good reason by players. It's time developers stopped treating players as disposable ATMs. Being able to update the game is nice, they were also a bit late to it but we'll pretend they did us a favor. But what I still can't accept is that the only way to play new characters is to pay for them. Sure they made content for the game they should get paid, but you know who makes better content for the game? Players, see how many people would buy your DLC or your game if there are only 100 people playing? Just having your game being played means more people are willing to play it. The attitude most devs have is we sold them the game and some bought the DLC, we're done. Doesn't matter if the game's dead we got our money let's bounce, let's make a new game and new set of DLC.
The thing that makes me angry is when you look at the character selection screen and you have like 10 characters to play and 50+ dlc locked. The fact that to play a game that gets dlc day one I need to pay 130$ is insane. And Im not even talking about the dlcs being tied to your account so even if you buy the game physically, you can't even go to a friend house with the dlc. As a collector, seeing an enormeous part of the game being downloadable only and never preserved is really sad and just encourages pirating over buying one cd with everything on it. If at least they did a complete physical edition when everything is released and you just have everything on the disc (updates, dlc ect.) like with Xrd Rev 2 or under night in birth exe CL-R for a normal game price it would be more interesting. With the dlcs we get these days, it's like we are an infinite suply of money that keeps buying overpriced stuff that are not generally worth it.
I just think it sucks that you typically can’t lab against DLC characters. It’s one thing to make them unplayable, but not being able to learn a matchup in training mode feels…blech. I just hope we never EVER get another game like Multiversus again, extremely parasitic form of monetizing a game.
Can we just say that arcsys is the best example of the worst game dlc content, wow i paid 60 bucks to have 12 characters in this one crossover fighting game that one of 4 the categories only has 2 characters. and now 2 extra for free after a while and then 100 more paid characters from other franchises, making the game cost 120 more bucks while other fighting games have nearly the same count of characters at the start or give you a 30 buckarunies expansion for allllll characters
Solution: Pirate then try out the character. The skills transfer over to multiplayer nicely. The solution is unethical, granted, but so is what the devs are doing.
Bro I bought gg strive because it seemed fun and enjoyable and then I find out 2 of the characters I want to play come in a 30 dollar pass bro I already bought your game and you want me to buy it again just give me the characters i want so I don’t have to buy a pass
you frame buying skins like its a bad thing but Id be more than happy to receive new dlc characters in a fighting game for free in exchange for alt colors and skins costing money
I'm personally all for making the DLC characters (in any fighting game) usable in training mode, but nowhere else. That way you can see if you like a character before buying them and lab counters to their options, but if you actually want to use them in a real match (even against a CPU) you gotta pay
I want to get into strive, but the pricepoint of getting everything is just not realistic for me and I think a lot of prospective buyers are in the same boat with me. this could be preventing the game from getting bigger because the price of the game is 60, then season 1 is 30, then season 2 is probably going to be 30 as well making the price of the game be with everything be 120 plus future seasons. one way they could get new players in would be decreasing the price of the base game and when the new season comes out, decrease the price of the past season. without any changes the game is going to end up with less and less players over time.
This is a problem i often find frustrating with fighting games in general yeah is that the later you get into one the more you're expected to pay up front get the full experience and access to all the matchups in order to not be at a inherent disadvantage regardless of if you even want to play the character in question or not. Like you often hav e the $60 game then like 4 characters for $20 and THEN multiple other "seasons" worth of characters that often add up to about freaking $100 or more on just one game!
I appreciate Brawlhalla and For Honor, two non-traditional fighting games, allowing you to both play all characters in training mode, and unlock them with earnable currency in-game instead of buying them with cash.
Whenever the topic of new character power creep comes up I am reminded about how Blizzard tried being conservative with new character balance in Heroes of the Storm for a while and found that if a character was not obviously good right away then nobody played them and they didn't even get enough data to tell what was wrong with them
That actually happens in Smite too. The devs make the character stronger than average on release usually. The characters then get played a lot so they get a lot of data and know what to tone down. Whenever a character is considered below average, you rarely see them in matches and it usually takes them a few patches to get them up to par.
a dev for destiny 2 said that if they intentionally release new stuff “a little hot” cause if they don't it's just guess work
And that's how Cagliostro got buffed into war crime tier despite being great already.
This might be where low tier heroes contribute to the ecosystem. Everyone knew Alex was ass because there was a small group of very dedicated and very good players trying to win with him and they just couldn't compete. So the buffs he got were massive but ultimately fair because Capcom knew the character really needed them.
@@Time2GoHam1995 I remember they said this awhile back and really doubled down on it in 2020 when the had back to back weak god releases. I believe it was Mulan and baba yaga that were both released quite weak to the rest of the cast and I think from then on they just started releasing gods a bit overtuned to get proper feedback.
From the creators of Death Knights....
About power creep, there's also the fact that people have been playing and learning shit about old characters for months, maybe even years, so if you add a new character and after trying it out they seem even with the rest of the cast, it's fairly likely that they're slightly overturned to compensate for the lack of labbing time and experience from the testers.
It's like with HC, everyone said he was mid tier at launch. That's probably what ArcSys saw in their testing, but now that the character is more fleshed out we can see him shooting people to death left and right. And it sort of only gets worse, because the more time passes the better people get at using the old characters.
It’s also why we shouldn’t be quick to demands nerfs. I can think of many games fighting shooters etc. where a character was deemed way too strong when released. Clearly busted. Needs nerfs NOW!…. 7 months later they’ve been buffed to be better then they are at launch with no significant nerfs at that time because we realize “no they weren’t very good”. It takes time to figure this stuff out. A lot less time than it used to for games with the internet but still it takes a bit to figure out how far the rabbit hole goes so forming opinions on something you can’t immediately bring up evidence for is pretty stupid for the first couple of weeks.
Situations like this are why u gotta understand the system first before u really start throwing characters out there, so u know what does and doesn't work
That literally works both ways bud. And that shit happened with like 4 other characters too. Would you believe it, people are stupid and refuse to think for themselves? Everyone thought chipp was funny low health guy until asian players had to say that he is top 3.
This goes the other way too though. Now, a couple months later, HC is still considered top tier but not as strong as when he was first starting to be called broken. He hasn't actually gotten weaker, but everyone else has learned the matchup and gotten better at fighting against him. I think the HC players picked up the techs faster than other players picked up the matchup, but now it's evened out a little bit and I'm interested to see where the character goes in further updates and over more time.
At the same time its really sad to see the people that labbed out a tech for a certain chaeacter for months just for a new one to do it way easier and better
The thing that makes me angry is when you look at the character selection screen and you have like 10 characters to play and 50+ dlc locked. The fact that to play a game that gets dlc day one I need to pay 130$ is insane. And Im not even talking about the dlcs being tied to your account so even if you buy the game physically, you can't even go to a friend house with the dlc. As a collector, seeing an enormeous part of the game being downloadable only and never preserved is really sad and just encourages pirating over buying one cd with everything on it. If at least they did a complete physical edition when everything is released and you just have everything on the disc (updates, dlc ect.) like with Xrd Rev 2 or under night in birth exe CL-R for a normal game price it would be more interesting. With the dlcs we get these days, it's like we are an infinite suply of money that keeps buying overpriced stuff that are not generally worth it.
Yeah SFV has that problem really bad. You're telling me that there's like 50 characters in this game and I only get to play barely over a third of that? Gross.
@@king_acceler8755 SFV is even worse, because there are longtime base-roster characters locked behind DLC. Why the hell do I need to pay extra to play guile? It’s damn guile, he’s one of the main characters of the franchise.
@@harrylane4 all fighting games do that. Lei, nina marduk and armour kind where dlc in tekken 7
@@harrylane4 I always found this criticism lame as hell. Just because you have this preconceived notion that Guile should be in the SF base roster doesn't mean he HAS to be. Incessantly asking for older characters that ALWAYS appear limits the potential of returning characters that are not as popular. Characters like Mika and Karin that hadn't turned up in 20 years should be prioritized because they make for more interesting additions.
At least Guile fans had the solace of knowing he WOULD be in the game no doubt. Fans of less popular characters don't even have that and fellas really cared that Guile was literally the second dlc character. Like, oh no what a disaster.
Something small I would like to say is that I wish more character select screens remain as the Smash Bros Ultimate one, and I mean if you don't have the character it doesn't appear on screen taunting you behind a lock because you haven't or can't buy the DLC at the time. I understand they want you to buy them at some point but it makes me feel I own an incomplete game because I haven't paid for those extra characters that I may never end up playing as.
Over the years, i've noticed Power Creep is a universal thing across pretty much all games with updates. Hell, even tabletop RPGs like D&D5e and ESPECIALLY 3.5 have Power Creep. But I actually think that Power Creep is a little bit more than just "New character good, give money." There's a couple of reasons why it happens.
One of the first reasons is due to expanding on a game's system. When a developer is making a game, they're in the process of still laying out the ground work for what it is. So naturally when the game is released, the developers can now make something new with the hindsight of how the game fully works. They can use that ground work and push what's possible now that they have the hindsight of the initial development. That's why new characters often have crazy systems and mechanics that base roster characters don't have.
The second reason is appeal. Convincing people to buy a whole nother character for like 6 dollars a pop (or an entire seasons pass) Isn't always the easiest thing in the world(Unless your like a diehard fan, or a simp). When it comes to DLC, you really need to prove to people that the DLC is actually worth their time. How do you do that? Well, let's go back up to point 1. Developers can use the knowledge of the game to now make a character that breaks the boundaries of what we though was possible. This can add a whole new breath of life to the game as there's now a new character with new mechanics. That's shit's exciting! We get to see the game evolve right before our very eyes and we have new toys to play with. In a similar vain, sometimes it's better for a DLC character to be powerful to make people actually want to buy them. Who the fuck would wanna throw down 6-7 dollars for a character with the effectiveness of a wet sock? It would feel like a waste of money by that point.
Overall, Power Creep is usually more of a byproduct of a game's lifespan, rather than a deliberate choice. I'm not saying that Power Creep isn't a problem. Trust me, there's still some pretty bad things that has come from Power Creep, but I also don't think it's the boogieman everyone says it is. There's been plenty of scenarios where a DLC character has Power Creep, but not to the point where it overshadows the rest of the cast. There's plenty of Fighting games (and just other games in general) where the base options are just a viable as they once were. Not to mention, there's moments where the DLC's creep causes the base characters to get buffs where they really need it. And sometimes Power Creep happens because the developers have been working on a product for so long that they just can't see the flaws anymore, even with testing. As long as Power Creep is kept somewhat under control, I don't mind it.
It's perfectly possible and not at all hard to make new content without powercreep, Blizzard did it with Heroes of the Storm for a time and they noticed competitive players just weren't that interested in these characters if they were just as good as the old ones
So yeah I believe it just comes down to powercreep being intentional because money
@@lambtoken2708 something tells me you didn't read his comment, and it shows.
The transition from current to past potemkin buster was really clean
I don't play fighting games as much as I'd like to because I don't have the willpower or time to learn how to play them properly but I always love how informative these videos are!
Pick a newer, popular game and you'll find plenty of new players just as casual
The only proper way to play is the way that's fun for you. Don't take it so seriously
Once you got the basics they transfer between games.
play strive
Play strive bro. It's very fun and not hard to get into.
I miss when fighting games had unlockables wether that be cosmetics or new fighters that would motivate you to keep playing but now all that are locked behind a paywall dlc smh
For the power creep thing, it doesn’t seem that insane to me.
In DBFZ, every season had 1 standout strong character. Season 1 had bardock, season 2 had GT. Season 3 had 2 with UI and SSJ4. Now there is L21. 5 out of 20 characters being top tier on release doesn’t seem crazy.
For GBVS, none of the dlc in season 1 were top tier. Belial was though. Idk about the characters after him.
In Strive, the first 2 dlc are considered on the weak side, HC is top tier, while baiken and Testament seem average.
Tekken is the odd one here as about 1/3rd of their dlc is top tier. All of them are considered at least decent though. This isn’t new though, nor is it specific to dlc. Even in the older Tekken games, whenever they added new characters, like 1/3rd or 1/4th of them would end up super strong. Even in T7, the new characters that are on the base roster were ridiculous when they were released but they got toned down before we got them. Look at arcade Akuma and Kazumi. Tekken’s seems the worst though because it had 2 really really strong dlc characters back to back, on top of the rest being decent at worst.
Honestly, you cant blame them for beefing up DLC characters when they want people to buy them without hesitation. It can create inconsistencies with balance but with latest update technology, they can carelessly release overtuned characters to rake up money then balance them once they see results. Now obviously this isn't being abused alot but there are definitely instances in games where companies purposefully tamper with their DLC content to give players a sense of urgency that you need to get it or you'll be at a massive disadvantage.
No yea honestly power creep is rarely a problem in fgs ESPECIALLY compared to other genres like mobas and hero shooters
I’m pretty sure there’s waaay more than 20 characters in DBFZ lmao.
@@MayHugger 20 dlc characters.
I still remember, what, six Leroys in top-8 on EVO Japan? The character got nerfed in the end, but still.
ALL DLC characters should be available in training mode (even with just a single or maybe some boring, custom made palette with "DEMO" pasted all over it) so people can lab against them (as well as maybe try them out to see if they even want to buy them).
On the Tekken 7 Frame Data topic, I still don't understand why game devs are so stingy about it
Wanna know how much I hear people praise games with good frame data tools? All the time.
Wanna know how much I hear people praise games for NOT having frame data tools? I don't.
To slow down early discourse. Even patchnotes don't want to clarify.
Also I've never heard any frame data praise, ever.
I played in Arcades for a little while but geez it was like the very tail end of them for me. I've only see genuine classic arcade machines like 3 to 4 times in my life. Everything else has been in modern places that emulate arcades.
I can't imagine not seeing all the arcade machines at every Movie theater, Skating Rink, in the front of old Walmarts, General Arcades, etc.
I feel I only caught the tail end of the Arcade scene but they were still a pretty big deal in my local area up until 04-05.
Actually, in order to fix an infinite on Killer Instinct, rare sent a team to travel the us updating EVERY SINGLE CABINET. It's nuts
A couple additions.
Fighting games are starting to play with FOMO.
Buying the season pass will get you access to playing the character early. Thus making anyone who has not bought the pass need to resort to seeing others streaming. It felt bad when I was so hype for Roshi, only to have to live vicaralouly through streamer for a few days.
The reason this happened is the other issue I have. Devs will announce a season pass but not what characters are in it. So we end up purchasing the hope you get the characters you want.
I rely on leaks for what DLC will be but those are not always right. I just want Jam in strive. She would fit perfect. Instead DNF gets Jam's Cousin.
When KOF XV revealed its team pass and showed gameplay of the first team and revealed the second team. There were people that thought Snk was purposely withholding "finished" characters (They weren't) to sell them. So in regards to the knowing the characters in a season pass thing. It's dammed if you do or dammed if you don't thing.
@@airrhearrt2865 then explain to me how kof xv in the 1st year added 13 characters and the 2nd year is only getting 6.
If your morals allow you, just pirate the game to lab the DLC characters. Making them unplayable in training is something that's just unforgivable and also kinda stupid since you can't even try them out to see if you're interested in buying them or not.
Crazy how you have to either pay more what you already paid or pirate characters just to have a chance fighting them
Another issue with paid DLC is that if someone wants to try out a character, but they discover they don't even like the character, they won't have any way to return the character they wanted to try out. It really prohibits a lot of players from discovering characters that they will enjoy outside the base roster and can be absolutely stupid.
SFV occasionally lets you play DLC characters in training without playing them, and I don’t know why this isn’t something you’re *always* allowed to do, no matter what, in every game.
Sf6 added rental tickets for dlc characters which is good
gotta love how dbfz, a 4 year old game selling at full price, has half the cast hidden behind a pay wall, including the main character for god's sake.
There's a weird paradoxical nature when it comes to title updates and dlc add ons. Because although you were essentially paying for the same game again, it felt the character and mechanics were more naturally integrated/balanced than just buying dlc down the road. Like you said it feels like devs were getting ahead themselves when designing some dlc characters and not taking into account base game.
Looking at happy chaos he feels he wasn't designed with strive in mind, a character with the ability to zone so heavily in very neutral ground based game. Speaking optimistically you can tell devs wanted people to make use of his whole kit but people chose the "cheesy way" of zoning because there's no penalty for it and strive's system heavily favor out ranging your opponents. And that also goes for weaker dlc characters, which are usually characters that have such weird gimmicks in comparison to the main cast. Again using strive look at jack-o/goldlweis both characters based around set play when strive favors more neutral based fighting styles.
Ah yes, Guilty Gear, legendary for its neutral, ground based footsies.
Each updated version of old fighting games had new story and endinga for all of the characters. Imagine that happening with modern fighting gamea which mostly don't bother adding endings or any story for dlc fighters.
Babe wake up new GekkoSquirrel Video.
I was once told there was a concpet along the lines of "brain, heart, and body" when it comes to describing fighting game players. Once I also watched a video on Brian and heart players... but not body players...
Haven’t watch the video so I don’t know if you go into it but, DLC MUST start being free in training mode. With the FGC growing and more people getting into it, it’s needs to be a little more accessible for everyone. If you can’t lab a against a character and end up running into them in some sort of tourney. I’m sorry but if you don’t own them to lab against/play as, don’t take notes before hand, or sit down and learn with someone else (long sets for experience). Your fucked, and it’s not even on you.
I genuinely enjoyed the humor in this video, it felt like it came from very personal frustration which is fun to look at from the outside.
Shoutout to the chad Melty Blood for giving DLC characters for free, acting like a true king
Conspiracy theory but I think the hype for a dlc character can also be a reason for power creep. The devs see hype for a character and overtune it so the casual audience wont feel like they paid for a "bad" character. Take Leroy in tekken 7 as an example, he was most hyped up dlc, you'd see talks of him everywhere before release. Heck even T Pain did a cosplay. When he was released he was broken beyond belief. It was awful and even with patches he's still a bit of a problem. Basically a pay to win character thats super easy to play coz if he was actually balanced the casual audience would be disappointed that they cant win by pressing a button.
Bayonetta in Smash 4, Sora in Ultimate, Lab Coat 21 in DBFZ
I feel like the sort of "court of public opinion" has a massive effect on fighting game DLC, but *especially* for characters that are extremely wanted by the communities of the games. Bayo and Sora were literally a result of the popular vote, while at least I remember wanting and hearing others wanting to play as the good version of Android 21 in DBFZ (no idea if she was the most wanted by the end or not)
On top of that, it seems that devs are way more likely to absolutely destroy game balance with the final character they're going to give out. A mix of limited remaining updates compared to lab time as well as (I assume) devs no longer feeling as inclined to restrain themselves since it's the last character they're making.
I think Brawlhalla does a great job at monetizing itself, you start with a base roster that changes every week and can eventually get all characters with in-game currency (or buy all current and future characters for 20$)
When it comes to training mode not only can you pick all characters, both for player and dummy, but you can also choose any cosmetic you want to see if you like it.
I like that you can just grind _really_ hard to get the DLC characters instead of just having to outright buy it. It’s not only a good way to keep the player on the game but also a good way to gain money, I’m sure like half the playerbase is _just_ impatient enough to just buy the damn thing instead of meeting unlock requirements. It’s a win/win for the game and the player.
Rushdown revolts a free and real good Platform Fighter too that has things in place for some real good monetization down the line
their are custom emotes from streamers you can spam on screen as a Taunt mid fight its so silly XD
I bought guilty gear strive without any of dlcs and once i found out i can't play 3 character i would like to play and few others i'd like to try out.. i was disaplointed and now i gotta pay more for dlcs that will cost even more than the game.. What a bummer, man 😞
*DLC power creep happens*
Me, a BBCF Jubei main: 😐
Bandai 100% intentionally make DLC characters strong.
If Leroy and Fahkumram were accidents, then no one should ever buy another Tekken game because the devs would actually have to have zero idea how Tekken works to release those characters in their launch state.
Launch Leroy was the 3d equivalent of a 2d character having an invincible dp that's plus on block.
Im fairly new to fighting games, why was Leroy broken?
@@rorrim0 Many aspects, but the gist of it is he had several moves that had a similar function to an existing character's move, but were better for the most part.
9:43 “Tekken has never had DLC before and charged for it. This isn’t really directed at Capcom, I have always said this, but I see the characters and their move sets as chess pieces - they are essential items necessary in the game and we would never sell any of those individually.”
Katsuhiro Harada 2012
While its more characters he's talking about, but the mention of chess pieces, and learning how they move, it seems a litt- coughhypocritecogh. Sorry, there was something caught my throat there.
I wish fighting games today get released complete, with no content cut out to be sold as DLC. Put out a nice complete package and it'll sell well. Essentially what fighting game devs are doing is making their titles pay to win if you're playing online. Why does the fgc not stand up to this nonsense? Why do they do nothing?
Nobody brings up the 300$ roaster too. Its actually crazy if you want to buy a full roster it can sometimes be over 200$.
No, season passes are overall more expensive than title updates because at least with a new title, you can just wait until everything is released and buy the latest version secondhand. Season passes almost NEVER get discounted, and if they do, it's not significant enough. I ain't gonna pay half or more of the base game's MSRP just for 5 new characters!
Its also a problem that these games are still full priced while having the majority of the games roster be paid. Sfv is almost insulting, because you get like 16 characters as a base roster, some of which are incredibly niche picks like fang and necalli, while 29 characters, almost double the amount of base characters, are paid dlc. So if you dont pay up you arent experiencing about 2 thirds of the game
You could unlock the first 2.5 seasons of characters just by playing the single-player. You didn't have to buy anything. And if you played consistently online, You would have enough to buy the rest of season 3.
Smash 4 DLC and patches are probably one of the best examples of powercreep out there. Not only were most of the DLC characters horribly unbalanced and way stronger than most of the base roster, most of the top tier characters in said base roster were actually *nerfed* over time, making the gap in power between DLC and base roster even larger than normal.
Smash ultimate was slightly better with no... bayo or cloud. as some characters were pretty balanced like banjo as banjo was added mainly for fans
Power creep is a very real thing and its awful, but if they make the dlc character that is top tier but incredibly hard like happy chaos there should be absolutely no problem with that
I like you so im glad this vid didn't turn into whining about happy chaos being top tier as i am partly a hc main so i would know he's hard and only the 0.1% of players that play him like they spent every waking second since his launch learning and playing him can actually take full advantage of his kit, the only reason hes top tier in most peoples tier lists anyway is because of zoning hc which only pathetic miserable users do but I don't want my character gutted for that
@@RealBigMitch Honestly guilty gear strive is not AT ALL a game where you can say "DLC characters are power creep!!!" Like, goldlewis is the most balanced character in the game, jack-o is just bad, and test and baiken are just okay-- HC are just good
Never said any dlc char in strive is broken because they're not lol hc is just the hardest and best
Look i don’t think anyone wants to delete happy chaos from the game, but if he’s deemed overpowered by the best players, he’s probably overpowered, that and he’s complained about casually too, so he’s 100% at least getting touched next patch.
@@brogoyle let's just hope he doesn't become Anji 2.0
What happened to street fighter x tekken was a fucking travesty and I'll never be able to get over it. That game, especially with the 2013 update, was actually really solid
I think dlc it's one of the things that makes new players not play the game. Yes, skins/Battle pass/loot box are the cancer of free to play, but at least that doesn't add to the gameplay compared to new characters.
I bought base SF5 the day before they released a "title update" with all of the 40 (or whatever) DLC characters included. That was the first, and last time, I will ever touch Street Fighter again. That shit pissed me off so much.
There were like 60 characters and I had to pay $5 each for like 45 of them, the day before they all came included. Honestly fuck DLC in fighting games. It really keeps me from playing. I had a lot of fun with Tekken and DBFZ but when you get into a game a year late and you aren't allowed to play half of the characters unless you shill $80, it kind of discourages you to play.
I think there's also the prejudice thing. Like, no matter how bad the DLC character is, he can still be hated just for being DLC (i think it also has to do with lab, which is reasonable).
Honestly they make the dlc purposely better than the cast roster, pay to win n deserves the prejudice
@@steezuschrist0999Tekken 7 and Soul Calibur 6 DLCs are a prime example of this BS.
Kunimitsu and 2B for example are absolutely OP compared to the basic roster characters, and it's pretty disgusting they make the DLC more powerful on purpose.
Remember when fighting games had unlockable characters instead of dlc characters?..good times
I hope Project L changes this paid character DLC thing because in all other Riot games you can unlock all characters for free. I don't like how you don't have basic access to a cool character which is typically broken on launch easily. I think paying for cool skins and cosmetics is a lot better than locking playable aspects of the game behind a pay wall.
That's most likely what's gonna happen. Look at LoR, changing the toxic card packs system into an open wild card one WITH WEEKLY LIMITS so that you can have everything for free and noone who spends money is really ahead of you.
Shoutout to MTBL having free DLCs
That game kinda needs it cause it's like kinda dead
It's cause they want us to ignore the bad shield system lol
For what it's worth, even going back to the Sega Genesis Super Street Fighter 2 era, the "updates" were never full price. You'd never pay "another 60$". The original version would be full price, then the updated version would be usually around half the price(give or take 5 bucks). For instance I specifically remember purchasing my copy of Super Street Fighter 2 for 30$ when the average brand new game cost 50$. And Super Street Fighter 4 cost 30$ when Vanilla SFIV had cost 60$(and every version after super cost only 15$ and used the same disk as super). This goes on and on for every game I can think of.(previous Guilty Gears titles, Blazblue, Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 Ultimate etc...)
The krypt in mk isn't like loot boxes. The krypt items are preset, in game currency only, and has been around for years before dlc became common.
And that's before considering what it might've replaced: unlockables. I don't know about you, but there was a certain feeling to discovering more characters and other stuff as you kept playing the game that I really miss. There's nothing like thinking you figured out the game only for it to throw you another curveball in the form of a new character or a secret fight you didn't expect, something I feel was lost in the transition to online gaming.
For Honor, despite being so terrible, made DLC characters right : you can use them in training mode as much as you want, so you are able to see what they can do, and if a new character is one you want to play, you can then buy it.
I actually think this is a super good idea. Let people mess around with them in training, and also have an in-game currency thay you can grind if you want to.
Tbf those dlc characters were also horrendously overturned more so than most fighting games at times lest we forget launch cent
@@THENEPTUNEGAMER The entire game is a mess when it comes to balancing and mechanics, and it's a real shame because it could have been fun to play.
Can we talk about how DBZ Fighterz is $60 still and does not include any of the DLC?
Some companies don't reduce the price of games with time, but will have sales from time to time. Not an fighting game but ... total war warhammer 1(2016) and 2 with no dlc are still 60$ when there is no sale and there is a tw:warhammer 3.
No, this is not a defence, i'm just providing information.
I paid for the Tekken frame Data, it was just more convinient than looking it up on the internet everytime. But making players do that was terrible
i mostly hate the inevitability of it all like when someone openly disliked the sf6 leak roster so someone else said something along the line of "it'll be expanded by dlc releases" it feels like starter rosters are just made with dlc like with fighterz
and this is more of personally outing myself but I'm in no way good at any given fighter and like to play like 4 at once so I'm never good enough to justify spending double the money on one game for new characters
The only characters who deserve to be in Mortal Kombat is Mortal Kombat characters. Why the fuck are Mortal Kombat characters dlc in Mortal Kombat?
New to fighting games but these are issues in a lot of games, the only game which imo does it fair is an RTS called Forts, where only the host of a match needs the DLC and then everyone can use it. But power creep is in all games, I was talking about Star Citizen lately with a friend and he also mentions it, when a ship first comes out it's overpowered, for example the new fighter is basically a rack for guns, these ships then get nerfed down the line but for 2 patches after release of the ship you can't buy it in universe
A special mention to the NRS model of charging you for the pass and then later releasing the "complete" edition for $60, which in it of itself is more economic than the combined price to the game on release plus it's various passes. Seriously screw you NRS.
NRS is among the studios and companies on my "list" where I won't purchase anything they make outright with the exception of sales of 75% or more if there's anything I really want - which doesn't really apply to NRS games because I really couldn't care less about MK or Injustice anymore.
That´s the case with every video game not just NRS or fighting games. For example, Elden Ring will probably be getting some DLC in the future and there will be a "Complete or Game of the Year Edition" down the line, with all the content bundled in, for a cheaper price.
Strive is getting a Starter Edition 2022 with all the season 1 content in it and when season 2 is finished it´s very likely that there will be another edition.
That´s just how the industry works.
@@SlowLearner-z3h No it isn't. Its a major issue primarily with NRS. For the most part other companies have been pulling back on the practice. Also, for future reference just because something is seen as " part of the industry" doesn't mean it's alright.
@@Tokumastu1 People want to have additional content for the games they like and especially fighting game players want the devs to support their games for years with additional characters, costumes, stages and balance patches.
There is nothing wrong with that if the players feel that they are getting their money´s worth.
If you don´t like that´s fine but not everybody sees it the same way as you.
Edit: There was huge uproar when NRS announced that there will be no more DLC for MK11 after "just" one and a half years of the games release.
A couple additions.
Fighting games are starting to play with FOMO.
Buying the season pass will get you access to playing the character early. Thus making anyone who has not bought the pass need to resort to seeing others streaming. It felt bad when I was so hype for Roshi, only to have to live vicaralouly through streamer for a few days.
The reason this happened is the other issue I have. Devs will announce a season pass but not what characters are in it. So we end up purchasing the hope you get the characters you want.
I rely on leaks for what DLC will be but those are not always right. I just want Jam in strive. She would fit perfect. Instead DNF gets Jam's Cousin.
While power creep is real, i think it's wild how quickly people make points that the dlc characters beat on the original roster, and completely ignor that a lot of the time it's because the characters got nerfed into the ground before the dlc lol DBFZ is a perfect example, and even then something of the base roster is still high tier. Cammy has been busted for SFV's entire lifespan lol
The FGC just does a lot of lying to itself. It's like the collective community has serious short-term memory loss.
It's not only power creep in that the characters are stronger, but also in that the old characters simply don't have as many things as the new characters. For example who the heck picks Trunks for his flip and not SSJ4 Gogeta for his dragon ball mechanics, instant kill, etc.
@@sorrydudebros but isn't the point of a base roster to be the simplest expressions of the games arcetypes, and the DLC characters to be riffs/iterations on the formula. That's the whole point. Additional characters are supposed to be unique and interesting to encourage you to stray from ol'reliable. Less options also does not mean worse. Like i said, look at cammy. She's debatably the most mechanically simple character in the game, and she's done mothing but dominate the whole lifespan of SFV and has nothing but effective tools. More tools doesn't always mean good tools, look at characters like zamasu. Tons of tools, most of them are trash.
@@sergiok6660 if you want to talk real bare bones Guile DLC for SFV.
I get so tired of feature = power nonsense people in the FGC puts out.
@@HellecticMojo why in the world was he not base roster lol meanwhile people are upset the world warriors are all base roster for SF6. The fgc needs to make it's mind up
I hate when my favorite fighting game doesn't have my main in it cuz it means I paying 60$ +the character I actually wanted to play and waiting God knows how long for them to be released.
If Project L introduces characters in the same manner that League does, it’s yet another way that Riot is going to accidentally modernize the genre. Whether you like Riot or not, the game’s eventual release is looking to be something that will be good for every game in the genre
Riot will never put DLC characters. They surely will make 1000+ skins for characters but they never locked their characters behind a paywall
The problem with the problem with fighting game DLC is that we used to have to buy a new full-priced game to get a few more characters.
The problem with dlc characters is basically what you said. They just do more, leaving very little they struggle with.
And they also have to add "fun and unique" (bs) mechanics to them.
I would have been a Baiken main, if I didn't have to pay for her in nearly every damn game
Just jump to 7:36 to avoid all the filler crap
This is killing guilty gear for me. I don’t have any of the dlc characters but everyone I’m fighting is using them because they’re just that much better than the base game roster
Even though DLC practices are a problem nowadays, some games at least try to give players some kind of deal (good or bad). With Fighting games, there is no deal. They are 60$, with FOMO (Season passes) and technically P2W...
My problem with dlc characters is that, if you don't pay, you won't even know what to do to them because you don't know how the character works
fun fact gekko:
Multiversus allows you to try characters you dont own,lab them, and its free-to-play.
would you look at that...
Simple solution: make the new characters earnable in game, so you can either grind to get them, or just pay to use them now
I was mosy hearing to music. Man, UNIB has probably the best fighting game themes.
I bought GGST a couple days ago and one of the biggest reasons to why i bought the game was because of how cool of a character happy chaos is (and because his theme goes extremely hard). turns out he is a DLC character but at least he got me into buying the game and now i am a proud gio main
Might as well switch back bro pay to win
I think letting players experiment with a dlc character in training mode would only encourage them to get the DLC. I'd certainly tread cautiously buying extra content for a game I already bought if I wasn't 100% sure I'd enjoy it. I think players would be much more open to getting the dlc for a particular character if they were given a chance to play around with them and get a feel for their motions and combos in training mode before buying.
I would much rather have dlc characters I can earn or that are straight up free and microctramsactions that have no impact on the gameplay. The advantage of skins is that you choose whether or not to support the game by playing then.
I have a similar issue with not being able to try the dlc characters. It's less a labbing issue and just being able to get feel by playing the character myself. Personally seeing the character through videos by other players isn't enough for me, I'm very a 'try before I buy" type of guy.
Btw in Street Fighter IV's case, anything after Super Street Fighter IV came as paid DLC for a smaller price for the owners of SSFIV. That model was actually kinda neat since those updates came with the characters they wanted to add for a price like 15~20 dollars. I kinda miss that... kinda...
GekkoSquirrel: "nowadays it's extremely common for games to get patches and updates on the first day that they're out to fix glitches that the developers couldn't find"
me, QA Tester at a video game publisher, looking at all the known bug tickets still open when we ship the game: "pfff hahaha, you wish, more like "to fix known glitches past the game's production deadlines""
I mean sure unexpected day 1 major bugs sometimes appear but nearly every studio keep developing the game between the 1.0 release candidate (that has to be locked quite some time before the release because the console builders/platform holders needs to validate it) and their actual release date.
a lil gripe with dlc characters, if theyre in the story mode they should be in the base game. Lookin at you happy chaos and jacko. at least thats my take, feel free to grill me if im wrong
I often forget that NRS did skins that wy because I'm on PC and just used an unlocker. I have spent truly hundreds of hours playing dress up in that game. every character has like 70+ skins, and then 3 'gear slots' such as raiden's hat/staff/pendant. so that's a skin plus 3x50+ choices to modify that skin ... and I played with every possible mix on every character. it was almost as fun as the actual game.
uhhhhh I lost the point I wanted to make. oh yeah, sell me the skins I'll pay for em, just don't make me cross my fingers opening chests for hundreds of hours, I'll play something else.
Late, but you forgot one thing:
Y'know how a lot of driving games (like NFS, Forza, Gran Turismo and more recently, The Crew) that have real life brands like Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari, Toyota, Lamborghini, BMW, Ford etc. get delisted from digital stores all the time because of expiring car/music licenses?
The same thing will happen to fighting games (and all the DLCs) once they get delisted from sale, meaning that characters like Bridget and Goldlewis in Strive will become unplayable unless you've already purchased said characters. (Unless if ArcSys decides to take away your copy of Strive like what Ubisoft did to people who bought The Crew) (Doubly so in crossover games like BlazBlue Cross Tag Battle now that one of the companies that worked on the game, Rooster Teeth has closed this month)
This has already happened to fighting games already, with examples being Mortal Kombat 2011, older SoulCalibur games and Jump Force.
Practices like this only:
A. Encourage more people to pirate since piracy is basically the only way to access said DLC characters once that happens.
and B. Provide more legal ammo towards Ross Scott's (aka Accursed Farms) Stop Killing Games campaign to stop publishers from destroying games people paid for.
3:23 except SNK countered this by having multiple cartridge slots in their Neo Geo MVS. Wish you've actually mentioned that
These characters that are DLC should be unlockable within good reason by players. It's time developers stopped treating players as disposable ATMs. Being able to update the game is nice, they were also a bit late to it but we'll pretend they did us a favor. But what I still can't accept is that the only way to play new characters is to pay for them. Sure they made content for the game they should get paid, but you know who makes better content for the game? Players, see how many people would buy your DLC or your game if there are only 100 people playing? Just having your game being played means more people are willing to play it. The attitude most devs have is we sold them the game and some bought the DLC, we're done. Doesn't matter if the game's dead we got our money let's bounce, let's make a new game and new set of DLC.
The thing that makes me angry is when you look at the character selection screen and you have like 10 characters to play and 50+ dlc locked. The fact that to play a game that gets dlc day one I need to pay 130$ is insane. And Im not even talking about the dlcs being tied to your account so even if you buy the game physically, you can't even go to a friend house with the dlc. As a collector, seeing an enormeous part of the game being downloadable only and never preserved is really sad and just encourages pirating over buying one cd with everything on it. If at least they did a complete physical edition when everything is released and you just have everything on the disc (updates, dlc ect.) like with Xrd Rev 2 or under night in birth exe CL-R for a normal game price it would be more interesting. With the dlcs we get these days, it's like we are an infinite suply of money that keeps buying overpriced stuff that are not generally worth it.
Ah, I love Pokken's DLC. Only had 2 characters, on of which is arguably the strongest character in the game and the other is arguably the weakest.
Do an apex legends making it ATLEAST POSSIBLE to unlock characters with free in game currency you earn and give it an option to just pay for it
I just think it sucks that you typically can’t lab against DLC characters. It’s one thing to make them unplayable, but not being able to learn a matchup in training mode feels…blech. I just hope we never EVER get another game like Multiversus again, extremely parasitic form of monetizing a game.
Can we just say that arcsys is the best example of the worst game dlc content, wow i paid 60 bucks to have 12 characters in this one crossover fighting game that one of 4 the categories only has 2 characters. and now 2 extra for free after a while and then 100 more paid characters from other franchises, making the game cost 120 more bucks while other fighting games have nearly the same count of characters at the start or give you a 30 buckarunies expansion for allllll characters
Solution: Pirate then try out the character. The skills transfer over to multiplayer nicely.
The solution is unethical, granted, but so is what the devs are doing.
2:26 that potemkin transition was wonderful
Bro I bought gg strive because it seemed fun and enjoyable and then I find out 2 of the characters I want to play come in a 30 dollar pass bro I already bought your game and you want me to buy it again just give me the characters i want so I don’t have to buy a pass
you frame buying skins like its a bad thing but Id be more than happy to receive new dlc characters in a fighting game for free in exchange for alt colors and skins costing money
From the most cynical point of view DLC is for money. From a more positive one, the point of it is to extend the life of the game for people that it.
I refuse to buy modern fighting games anymore because of how intrusive these season passes have become.
Balance does not equal competitive.
Only fun games have competitive scenes.
devs are not the ones trying to get money out of you its the company
Can't they make a machine that uses new technology and wifi to update itself?
OP never saw Dead or Alive.
SMASH ULTIMATE has terrible power creep.
This is why I play among us arena fighters,
W fighting game
original version and pirated version, that's what I do.
I'm personally all for making the DLC characters (in any fighting game) usable in training mode, but nowhere else. That way you can see if you like a character before buying them and lab counters to their options, but if you actually want to use them in a real match (even against a CPU) you gotta pay
I want to get into strive, but the pricepoint of getting everything is just not realistic for me and I think a lot of prospective buyers are in the same boat with me. this could be preventing the game from getting bigger because the price of the game is 60, then season 1 is 30, then season 2 is probably going to be 30 as well making the price of the game be with everything be 120 plus future seasons. one way they could get new players in would be decreasing the price of the base game and when the new season comes out, decrease the price of the past season. without any changes the game is going to end up with less and less players over time.
This is a problem i often find frustrating with fighting games in general yeah is that the later you get into one the more you're expected to pay up front get the full experience and access to all the matchups in order to not be at a inherent disadvantage regardless of if you even want to play the character in question or not. Like you often hav e the $60 game then like 4 characters for $20 and THEN multiple other "seasons" worth of characters that often add up to about freaking $100 or more on just one game!
I appreciate Brawlhalla and For Honor, two non-traditional fighting games, allowing you to both play all characters in training mode, and unlock them with earnable currency in-game instead of buying them with cash.
Anyone know the outro music?
if the dlc are op like in ssbu then its p2w
Just curious are you a Giovanna Player?