Agree with all of this. I think one of the biggest barriers to changing stack sizes is recreational perspective. I've seen so many recs complain about stack sizes before even knowing the blind structure. E.g. they will think a 20k start stack 'isn't enough to play with', even if it's 200/300bb, especially if they're used to playing at DTD for example where 100k start stacks are common. 12 hours between Day 2 would be huge too. Been put off playing so many multi-day MTTs because of the short amount of time in-between days.
Thanks for the feedback Harry. It’s crazy to think in the last 10 years even some WSOP events started with 5000 chips with the 25/25 level and the structure was still decent
Far too much common sense spoken here! The Grosvenor 25/25 and 25/50 structures are awful and not good value for money for a recreational like myself anymore.
Good video and great points. The only thing I disagree with is about having big towers of chips and lots of low denomination chip values. It slows down the game when the dealer has to get change and people chuck out a 25k chip and announce an awkward bet of 17100 etc
Interesting vid! I think some of the problems you mentioned in the first part re shorter breaks and not letting the comps get too shallow won’t work in most cases for practical reasons. Dealers are often not rotated so need a break. Also the comp needs to end in a reasonable period of time. If you started repeating levels in gukpt mains for example the bigger ones would likely need four days. I completely agree with your comments about the payouts, recreationals are hurt really badly by top heavy payouts, as regs are more likely to win these. There’s a double whammy that fewer get paid so recreationals are less likely to see a return and end up frustrated. Spand.
Good point about the dealer breaks 👍🏻 as for GUKPT’s, the proposed structure would only be one level behind if later levels aren’t repeated. If the tourn needs to end by say 1am on day 3 then the clock can always be shortened to 40 minutes slightly sooner than usual too.
Interesting points Brandon. I definitely think all points are worthy of debate. Not being a live MTT player really, certainly not the circuit bigger buy ins (local live small BI like maybe 6-10 times a year), my opinion isn't as great as a circuit reg for example. Inconsistent blinds - totally agree with the point, think discussion needed around the suggested tweak as 2 consecutive levels early would just seem likely to encourage more people late regging after the first level?. Agree completely re the blind jumps tho and not sure with BB ante these days having 'odd' numbered blinds is that big an issue assuming there is the right chip denominations in play. Low Average stack - I like this. Would have to be seen in practice how this would effect the bubble I'd guess. In something like the main event for example, could it not possibly drag it on longer and leave more people hanging on for longer and possibly turn into multiple repeated levels whilst the larger stacks blind down ? Breaks - Absolutely no brainer 100% agree. So few people go play tables games. These breaks should be for loo, drink, fag etc and 10 mins is plenty or miss a couple of hands. Stalling - Again, agree to a point. Think this kind of punishes all the players over those you're wanting it to target, the PF constant staller. I Like the time bank cards structure you mentioned tho. Payout Structure - Love this in principle without seeing the numbers. I think your points in general are probably great for the circuit tournaments you play and the people who play them. My questions are probably more around the average casino weekly low BI MTT I may play in that this would be to much.
Thanks for the feedback. Nice to know some people agree 😊 The more consistent blinds and average stack floor could still be used for small one day events too and be very helpful. It shouldn’t effect the bubble much because even if the average is 22bb instead of 17bb it’s still relatively easy for someone to bust - a lot of tournaments do freeze the blinds once it goes hand for hand anyway so it’s very similar. Hopefully some of these changes can be implemented in the future!
Nice Vid some good points. Chip race agree completely some take them out way too early and now your open size has to either be 2x or 2.5x, which doesnt sound bad, but it can be quite a jump late in the tournament over a 2.1x or 2.2x size. The average tournament stack i strongly dont agree with by adding levels. You will see situations where short stacks can just nit up more. It could start to be obviously abused and i think actually punishes big stacks.
I don’t see how a better structure could be worse for big stacks. But that a fast structure is a big advantage to a big chip leader in ICM situations as they can abuse it more easily.
Agree with most of your points except the desirability of paying more of the field, up to 15%. The WSOP Main Event had 10,000 entrants. Why do we need to pay 1,500 of them, mostly getting their min-cash of $15K? If $15K is important to you then don't enter a $10K tournament! Making the min-cash at least 2.5X the buyin makes more sense to me. It also reduces stalling on the bubble as the nits are less likely to even reach the bubble. Also I think a clear cutoff time for play should be known in advance. I was surprised to see a UK poker stream recently where a London tournament was playing on well past midnight with no clarity if they were even stopping at 1 am.
I’m team don’t pay 15% too. 2x min cash more appropriate when there’s a lot of satellite qualifiers too. Agree with a preset stop time for the night too although forcing ICM isn’t ideal too for some events
IMO Max late reg is the biggest problem with tournaments in general. As you alluded to this is especially toxic for events where you can rebuy for as little 10bbs. There are even many bracelet events that let you rebuy for
Yes the structure of live tournaments need work however the organisers won’t change a thing. At the end of the day it all comes down to cutting costs, if they make slower & longer structures, the tournament would last longer which means they have to pay dealers more cos they’ll be working longer hours.
A better structure should attract more players and therefore more rake too. Some of these changes won’t make the tournament go on for longer too but just have it spent more at a 30-100bb range rather than over 100bb or under 20bb.
I stumbled across this video, good content man. Completely agree with practically everything, the timebank issue is my biggest bug bear in poker tbh. In some tournaments even 1k+ you can get 3-4 TB and tbh 2 minutes extra time just isn’t enough at all. I would suggest just reducing the time as you say from 30-20 and then just give people 2 TB per tournament and the clock just stops and normal allowance is then used(till the clock is called) I think this would totally negate people using TB to waste time because you will need to keep them. And obviously we are seeing tournament structures getting worse across the board, the wsop bar the main is a shambles. The other super deep one is the Irish Open main but now that’s gone from a super super deep slow structure to now adopting PokerStars generic live stop structure. It’s gone from 30k start stack and day 2 return of 1200bb to 4kbb and shortened the levels. 🫨 Hopefully someone with some pull will stumble across this video
Thanks for the comment. Grosvenor recently made the change to 20 seconds pre flop which is great. But still a time bank reset and maybe not enough of them now considering how quickly 20 seconds can go! Hopefully they do and care about the players.
good points well made. I personally don't like long dinner breaks but apart from that I agree
Agree with all of this. I think one of the biggest barriers to changing stack sizes is recreational perspective. I've seen so many recs complain about stack sizes before even knowing the blind structure. E.g. they will think a 20k start stack 'isn't enough to play with', even if it's 200/300bb, especially if they're used to playing at DTD for example where 100k start stacks are common.
12 hours between Day 2 would be huge too. Been put off playing so many multi-day MTTs because of the short amount of time in-between days.
Thanks for the feedback Harry. It’s crazy to think in the last 10 years even some WSOP events started with 5000 chips with the 25/25 level and the structure was still decent
Far too much common sense spoken here! The Grosvenor 25/25 and 25/50 structures are awful and not good value for money for a recreational like myself anymore.
Good video and great points. The only thing I disagree with is about having big towers of chips and lots of low denomination chip values. It slows down the game when the dealer has to get change and people chuck out a 25k chip and announce an awkward bet of 17100 etc
Interesting vid!
I think some of the problems you mentioned in the first part re shorter breaks and not letting the comps get too shallow won’t work in most cases for practical reasons. Dealers are often not rotated so need a break. Also the comp needs to end in a reasonable period of time. If you started repeating levels in gukpt mains for example the bigger ones would likely need four days.
I completely agree with your comments about the payouts, recreationals are hurt really badly by top heavy payouts, as regs are more likely to win these. There’s a double whammy that fewer get paid so recreationals are less likely to see a return and end up frustrated.
Spand.
Good point about the dealer breaks 👍🏻 as for GUKPT’s, the proposed structure would only be one level behind if later levels aren’t repeated. If the tourn needs to end by say 1am on day 3 then the clock can always be shortened to 40 minutes slightly sooner than usual too.
Great content Brandon, really well thought out proposals, let’s hope to see some changes incorporated in future 👌🏻
Cheers Alex 👍🏻
Interesting points Brandon. I definitely think all points are worthy of debate. Not being a live MTT player really, certainly not the circuit bigger buy ins (local live small BI like maybe 6-10 times a year), my opinion isn't as great as a circuit reg for example.
Inconsistent blinds - totally agree with the point, think discussion needed around the suggested tweak as 2 consecutive levels early would just seem likely to encourage more people late regging after the first level?. Agree completely re the blind jumps tho and not sure with BB ante these days having 'odd' numbered blinds is that big an issue assuming there is the right chip denominations in play.
Low Average stack - I like this. Would have to be seen in practice how this would effect the bubble I'd guess. In something like the main event for example, could it not possibly drag it on longer and leave more people hanging on for longer and possibly turn into multiple repeated levels whilst the larger stacks blind down ?
Breaks - Absolutely no brainer 100% agree. So few people go play tables games. These breaks should be for loo, drink, fag etc and 10 mins is plenty or miss a couple of hands.
Stalling - Again, agree to a point. Think this kind of punishes all the players over those you're wanting it to target, the PF constant staller. I Like the time bank cards structure you mentioned tho.
Payout Structure - Love this in principle without seeing the numbers.
I think your points in general are probably great for the circuit tournaments you play and the people who play them. My questions are probably more around the average casino weekly low BI MTT I may play in that this would be to much.
Thanks for the feedback. Nice to know some people agree 😊
The more consistent blinds and average stack floor could still be used for small one day events too and be very helpful. It shouldn’t effect the bubble much because even if the average is 22bb instead of 17bb it’s still relatively easy for someone to bust - a lot of tournaments do freeze the blinds once it goes hand for hand anyway so it’s very similar.
Hopefully some of these changes can be implemented in the future!
Nice Vid some good points. Chip race agree completely some take them out way too early and now your open size has to either be 2x or 2.5x, which doesnt sound bad, but it can be quite a jump late in the tournament over a 2.1x or 2.2x size.
The average tournament stack i strongly dont agree with by adding levels. You will see situations where short stacks can just nit up more. It could start to be obviously abused and i think actually punishes big stacks.
I don’t see how a better structure could be worse for big stacks. But that a fast structure is a big advantage to a big chip leader in ICM situations as they can abuse it more easily.
Agree with most of your points except the desirability of paying more of the field, up to 15%. The WSOP Main Event had 10,000 entrants. Why do we need to pay 1,500 of them, mostly getting their min-cash of $15K? If $15K is important to you then don't enter a $10K tournament! Making the min-cash at least 2.5X the buyin makes more sense to me. It also reduces stalling on the bubble as the nits are less likely to even reach the bubble.
Also I think a clear cutoff time for play should be known in advance. I was surprised to see a UK poker stream recently where a London tournament was playing on well past midnight with no clarity if they were even stopping at 1 am.
I’m team don’t pay 15% too. 2x min cash more appropriate when there’s a lot of satellite qualifiers too. Agree with a preset stop time for the night too although forcing ICM isn’t ideal too for some events
Good points but the fact is people keep showing up, despite rake increasing and structures getting worse. It's by design and rakes more for them.
We can only hope for more competition in the future
IMO Max late reg is the biggest problem with tournaments in general. As you alluded to this is especially toxic for events where you can rebuy for as little 10bbs. There are even many bracelet events that let you rebuy for
Yes the structure of live tournaments need work however the organisers won’t change a thing. At the end of the day it all comes down to cutting costs, if they make slower & longer structures, the tournament would last longer which means they have to pay dealers more cos they’ll be working longer hours.
A better structure should attract more players and therefore more rake too. Some of these changes won’t make the tournament go on for longer too but just have it spent more at a 30-100bb range rather than over 100bb or under 20bb.
I always assumed a short dinner break was intentional so you're forced to eat in the casino as you don't have time to go anywhere else!
Could well be true!
Uber eats 😂
Not being able to buy-in with less than 20bbs might have saved you a lot of money over the years! 😉
Precisely! 👌🏻
I stumbled across this video, good content man.
Completely agree with practically everything, the timebank issue is my biggest bug bear in poker tbh.
In some tournaments even 1k+ you can get 3-4 TB and tbh 2 minutes extra time just isn’t enough at all. I would suggest just reducing the time as you say from 30-20 and then just give people 2 TB per tournament and the clock just stops and normal allowance is then used(till the clock is called) I think this would totally negate people using TB to waste time because you will need to keep them.
And obviously we are seeing tournament structures getting worse across the board, the wsop bar the main is a shambles. The other super deep one is the Irish Open main but now that’s gone from a super super deep slow structure to now adopting PokerStars generic live stop structure.
It’s gone from 30k start stack and day 2 return of 1200bb to 4kbb and shortened the levels. 🫨
Hopefully someone with some pull will stumble across this video
Thanks for the comment. Grosvenor recently made the change to 20 seconds pre flop which is great. But still a time bank reset and maybe not enough of them now considering how quickly 20 seconds can go!
Hopefully they do and care about the players.