*Why did the DCEU failed miserably? Mainly due to the fact that it seems like Warner Bros. was trying to catch up with MCU at a time when the franchise was not only great, but also consistent. Because of that the franchise suffered miserably. Why? Simply because the fact that they didn’t really take the time to tell their stories which made it hard for the audiences care about the characters of what made them special from the DC comics.*
@@申月営無営月無営有申Zack Snyder wasn’t that guy to lead the DCEU. If Toby and Walter played their cards right, they would’ve given the chance to find an experience writer at DC Comics to be the new Kevin Feige of the DCEU. With all due respect to Snyder and you can hate him all you want, but it’s the former heads that failed.
@@LinkMarioSamus Technically there is a clear vision to the MCU. There's just so MUCH of the MCU and people are tired of it. So quality wouldn't matter if everyone's burned out.
Very well said Sean. Poor planning, trying to build a shared universe too quickly, the universe not feeling connected, bringing in Josh Whedon to direct re-shoots and having movies like The Flash and Blue Beetle come out in 2023 (10 Years after the DCEU began) ultimately killed the DCEU.
Your breakdown of Zack Snyder's style is really on point. I feel like he is easily one of the best visual directors in the industry but his style of directing, writing, and filming is not the best or for everyone.
His style is too dark, literally and figuratively. Too much grey in his movies. And Superman is too dark while his Batman is dark; there is no contrast between our heroes. That is bad writing. I understand Zack Snyder said his Superman was going to develop to the iconic Superman down the road after a couple of movies. But if that is the case, then don’t kill Superman in his second movie and don’t introduce Batman yet. It is a mess rushing things. This is definitely Frankenstein monster between Zack and execs.
@@brianng8350Also, My problem is to stop and I like ZackSiders movies. That was a tonal mismatch and they should have put him on a project. He didn't sell that. If it was up to me I would have either made him work on me now. James Gunn authority film or make a alternative universe on the Injustice. Branding that later on in a multiversal story could be potentially folded into the main universe. Never worked on the main establishing characters because of his style and direction. It's not that it's bad. It's just not a match.
I actually really wanted a shared DC universe back when Batman Begins and Superman Returns both came out, then we got that teaser in I Am Legend - I was SO excited about seeing those two particular movies with Chirstian Bale and Brandon Routh crossover at some point and it makes me wonder about what could have been. And that was a few years before the MCU.
Here are seven reasons I came up with for how the DCEU failed 1. Man of Steel wasn’t designed to be the foundation for a universe 2. WB wanted to catch up to the Marvel Cinematic Universe so much that Batman v Superman feels like several movies smashed into one film 3. Zack Snyder isn’t filmmaker who appeals to everyone 4. WB executives couldn’t stop micromanaging projects like 2016’s Suicide Squad and the 2017 version of Justice League 5. The tone of the DCEU is incredibly inconsistent to the point of DC fans not knowing if Blue Beetle is part of the DCEU or the upcoming DCU 6. All along the way, the quality of projects weren’t consistent enough in quality for general audiences to keep showing up 7. WB couldn’t stick to a plan long enough for the box office to really show solid results
2. The reason why BvS feels like several movies smashed into one is bc it is exactly that, the key point here is that this wasn't done by WB's specifications, they just wanted Batman and to tease the JL, the rest of the movie, the story, the plot, the characterizacion, the writing, etc, was ALL Snyder's vision. WB gave him carte blanche with the project, they even let him do things they were against like killing Dick Grayson, since they had a Nightwing project in development for quite some time and they still let Snyder kill Dick in the DCEU. Zack was the one who decided to make a veteran murderer Batman, kill Jimmy Olsen and Dick Grayson, kill off Superman only to bring him back in the next movie, the convoluted nonsensical story, "save Martha", ADHDH Lex Luthor, LOTR troll Doomsday, etc. The movie failed bc the vision for it was flawed and badly executed by Snyder himself.
1 goes to Nolan insisting no BM hook-up with SM. He still had that much pull and influence with Warner. I guess because they thought he might make still yet another lousy BM film.
Spot on! The biggest take is they didn’t take their time! From a business standpoint you would think they would spread stories across multiple films instead of cramming everything into one movie! Marvel had success because it was fresh, good storytelling, and character development. It’s a shame because I was really excited about DC. I wanted good competition between studios. As a fan that give me good product from both.
From what I've heard, Snyder didn't have a slate in the first place, he had a five movie story arc and it was up to the writers and directors to lead up to the story.
#1 point was spot on. I never felt like Man Of Steel was made with intent to launch a franchise. But... It still could've been pulled off had they taken their time. It's over now, but they definitely should have made at least one more movie after Man of Steel before getting to the Justice League.
Simple, WB kept changing their agenda in order to keep up with Marvel. This plan failed horribly when it resulted in 10 flops, half of the JL cast quitting, and they elected to make movies without a plan or any direction whatsoever. Warner Brothers needed to stop interfering and let the directors do their thing.
4:50 that's why man of steel works best as it's stand alone film not apart of a cinematic universe. Man of steel as it's own standalone movie is one of my favourite movies
@@gothcakes He definitely didn't understand the characters. When your Superman is stoic and wooden and your Batman is behaving like the Punisher, something is wrong.
Really loved what you said about Man of Steel. If anything, that should’ve been treated like the Nolan trilogy - in its own universe. I never thought of that until you brought it up
From Emergency Awesome, I heard the trilogy Zack had originally planned. It sounded interesting. I would not mind seeing it as alternative timeline/Elsewhere story kind of like Injustice storyline. But Zack was wrong choice for main universe.
I really hope James Gunn gives proper and absolute justice to the new DC cinematic franchise, and that he directs a lot of them, he did great with The Suicide Squad.
The DCEU is a cautionary tale of what happens when you put looking good in front of an audience, instead of bringing them in for a wonderful story. I hope that the DCU lasts longer
I think the main reason was Warner Bros' constant reactionary last minute meddling, butchering their projects early on, I honestly believe had they released BVS, Suicide Squad and Justice League as their directors intended without any studio meddling we'd have a thriving, or at least consistent cinematic universe right now
Not sure who suggested death of Superman or Doomsday or introducing Batman in a second Superman movie is one of the biggest pivotal mistake to death of DCEU. Second movie and you are killing the main character? WTF…?
Even if they had released the original versions it would be elevated the movies from 3/10 to maybe 5/10 at best, and they would have still had fundamental writing issues. The 4-hour Snyder cut version of Justice League would have been an amazing movie to see back in maybe 2010. It wasn't a bad movie, but it felt extremely dated, simplistic and bland compared to what MCU delivered during 2010-2018.
Idk if I 100% agree but I know the one thing that consistently horrible between all the movies is the editing. Whoever was in charge of studio editing needed to GO!!
- Rushing out Sub Par movies to catch up with Marvel - No Vision - Lack of consistency and not sticking to an idea (sacking Zack Snyder) - Muddled Tone (BVS was too dark, Justice League was too light hearted) - Problems behind the scenes with Warner Bros - Axing and Shelving movies - Awful CGI and Writing That sums it all up
Also to add on to the first reason of a horrible foundation, but the studio was not looking at what they're TV and Animation departments did or doing to get a full idea as to how build the universe organically. Which I think is probably one of the big take aways we can learn from this train wreck which is if your forcing out your cinematic universe then your gonna force out writing that won't feel organic.
It's crazy to me that the Avengers came out 4 years after Iron Man and the Justice League came out 4 years after Man of Steel, yet JL felt so rushed while the Avengers felt like the huge payoff after so many years of anticipation. Since we just had the Dark Knight trilogy wrap up, I don't think you necessarily needed another solo Batman movie, but in the first 4 years they could've done something like: 2013: Man of Steel 2014: Wonder woman 2015: World's Finest 2016: Man of Steel 2, Aquaman 2017: Trinity movie 2018: Flash, Green Lantern 2019: Justice League
This is how it should have gone movie wise: 1. Man of Steel 2. Batman Movie (against deathstroke with hints of what happened in Man of steel to connect them) 3. Wonder Woman 4. Man of Steel 2 ( to build up how awesome Superman is, so that the Audience can connect with him, go the Richard donner way) 5. Suicide Squad (introduce flash in this movie) 6. Aqua man 7. Batman V Superman (don’t kill Superman and don’t introduce doomsday let them fight lex or Brianiac at the end) 8. Green lantern 9. Shazam 10.Justice League on the realm of the justice league the animated movie but instead of dark side they fight steppenwolf. 11. Death of Superman 12. Black Adam ( remaining justice league struggling to get black Adam under control, end it with a cliff hanger with they reviving Superman like Zack snyders justice league) 13. Justice league 2 (all of them fight against Black Adam (where black Adam is in contact with lex and few other villains from the past movies, with the help of resurrected Superman they defeat them all but darkside shows up and controls Superman with anti life matter. 14. Justice league 3, Black Adam sees how dangerous Superman could be if on the wrong side,he helps the Justice league fight Superman and get Superman out the control of darkside and final battle all Justice league members against Darkside. Ahhh what DCEU could have been🎉🎉🎉
Just remember. When its all over and the chips are down, Aquaman was not only the most successful dceu movie, but DC movie EVER. Who the hell would have predicted the fish man would do better than the big 3 five years ago
We probably will never know the extent of what went down but I suspect it had a lot to do with misbehavior and/or people being treated badly by Walter Hamada. He seems to be a big source of toxicity that keeps coming up in stories about the making of Justice League and that time period in the DCEU. One of the things that’s so annoying about a lot of movies is when they make full CGI characters that simply do not need to be CGI characters, like Steppenwolf in Justice League and Billy Connelly’s dwarf guy in the Hobbit Battle of Five Armies. It’s so irritating because it looks fake and inconsistent with the other characters in the movie.
The leadership at WB is what really killed the DCEU. They wanted their own MCU money and when things didn't completely pan out like they wanted, they overcorrected and micromanaged until Josstice League lost money and they spent the next several years throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck. With Snyder's departure, coupled with studio politics and conflicting agendas, there was no Kevin Feige-like figure to hold everything together. WB had no idea what they were doing. Fingers crossed that James Gunn can make something work and I hope those involved with the old DCEU are doing well now (well, most of them, anyway).
After ZS JL I do believe if he had actual freedom things would have been different. James gunn probably knows he can take warner bros ideas and turn it into something positive when there’s more chances it could be a bad idea. Like rushing for a superhero Group movie for example. Although rebel moon disappointed people it did feel like weight of the shoulder that “okay he doing his thing” without anyone on his back
About 5 minutes in, I just wanted to say that this was really a missed opportunity. These were the live-action films I had been waiting for since they announced a Batman/Superman movie back in the 2000s at the height of the Nolan-verse and the Smallville TV run when WB put an embargo on the Bat franchise. Now, I have to wait another decade or more for a fully-fleshed out DC Universe. Considering my age and the decline in superhero movie hype, I'm just not that excited anymore... I go back to the Timm-verse DCAU every now and then just to dream of what could have been... RIP Kevin Conroy.
@@mayotango1317 Like how many years from now will it have trilogies and cross-overs? Can my youth/health wait? Will I still be alive to enjoy it when that day comes? I dunno... If you're still young to enjoy it with friends and family and relish it years after through re-runs, good for you... 👍
1:33 Fun fact Man of Steel wasn't supposed to be the first film in the DCEU, that was supposed to be the Green Lantern... let that sink in. When the MCU was at its height if you compared it to where the DCEU was during that time it was the biggest triumph Marvel had over DC since the late 1970s and early 1980s (when Marvel had around 70% of the comics market share which is about the same amount that Marvel and DC combined have now, but in the mid-80s DC came back swinging hard with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns).
I’m glad you made this video! I was LIT’RALLY gonna cover some of this stuff in written form. I’m gonna bite the bullet and watch EVERY DCEU movie one more time, and rank them all. The vision and development will be huge factors.
The really sad thing is that this is not the end. This mismanagement of the DC brand by WB is only in the initial stages of death. Talk to anyone in maintstream culture and DC is (at best) a laughing stock, and often, despised and reviled. They have all grown up with Marvel and the MCU and that's who they now know and love. I'm not just talking movies here. Look at the merchanidising genre, TV/series, animation, comics, boardgames, etc etc. Across all popular culture, DC is rapidly becoming relegated to history. I'm devastated. I will never forgive WB.
Great list of reasons. I consider the shifts in tone/style and having so any standalone projects we got this decade the biggest failures. If there had to be a book on the DCEU failures, I would want you to write it, Sean.😉
That is an interesting request! Sean Chandler's video critiques WB's DC live action cinematic projects, but it never puts forth idea(s) on how to "write" a DC cinematic universe. What are your suggestions about how WB's DC cinematic universe stories should be written, and which character(s) would you start with first?
I hope DC Studios will avoid all the crap we're just tired of. I'm tired of terrible writing. I'm tired of terrible people who don't immediately suffer the consequences of their actions. I'm tired of hard-working talented people getting screwed over. I'm tired of empty promises. I'm tired of separate universes. I'm tired of all of it! DC, as a brand, deserve better and on some level in their thick heads, the Warner Bros executives know this. And with Gunn confirming that DC Studios is practically separate from executive input, it gives me the sigh of relief I needed for eight years!
Aren't you somewhat worried about Gunns WB DCU, given Reeve's Batman continues to exist outside of Gunn's projects forcing audience that struggle with money problems to select between Robert Patterson's Dark Knight and the DCU? Also, are you concern that James Gunn could not stop the DCEU "trainreck" that will be Aquaman: Lost Kingdom?
There’s a few reasons: 1. WB tried to catch up with Marvel and their success instead of moving at a safe pace. 2. They brought in a director (Zack Snyder) who doesn’t understand these characters and their core values, while also having a style that’s an acquired taste. I don’t feel like Snyder is meant to direct superhero movies. He seems more comfortable making edgy and dramatic films that are more eye candy than story based, and there’s no problem with that for the most part. You can’t give a director like that access to superheroes who already have a background and lore created for them, because then they’ll manipulate it to fit their style. He just wasn’t meant to direct these characters. 3. They didn’t have an overall story planned out for the entire span of the universe. They pitched and announced random movies that were loosely connected to the very scattered universe, and most of them were never even made. 4. WB had zero intentions of pleasing the fans of DC or superheroes I’m general. They were so money hungry that it blinded them from doing what it would take to actually make ppl watch their movies in theaters. If they had given the people what they wanted and understood their audience and the material they make, the DCEU could’ve been just as if not more successful than the MCU.
The main films that highlight *precisely* where the franchise went wrong. 1. Man of Steel - A very unique take (arguably to a fault) on the Superman mythos, with a *standalone* design that aligned to the expectations DC built for itself in the movie space at the time, and only got better as time went on. 2. Batman v Superman - That one time a visionary, if polarizing, director tried to build a cohesive story out of a bunch of misguided studio notes & expectations, touching on contemporary cynicism while unsuccessfully trying to mask the studio's newfound reactionary habits. 3. Suicide Squad - Warner Bros' first attempt at course correction proved that the studio learned all the wrong lessons from Batman v Superman's performance. Instead of advocating for talents and their visions while strengthening their worldbuilding, they decided to expose their films as blatant reactionary products. 4. Justice League - The turning point for the franchise in the worst way possible. If abruptly scrapping years-long work and throwing talents under the bus weren't enough, WB chose to piss on itself by bowing to the competition, bringing forth an unrecognizable frankestein of a product that'd perfectly sum up the franchise's identity (or lack thereof) for years to come.
I agree. It sucks because like Sean I think several of the DCEU films are really good (with Wonder Woman and The Suicide Squad being 2 of my top 100 favorite movies of all time) but the cinematic universe as a whole was just terribly mismanaged.
@@cooperwolfe5478 The only films I didn't care for were Black Adam, WW84, Suicide Squad, Shazam 2 and of course the theatrical JL. Everything else I enjoyed very much, with their respective highs and lows. Even though I did feel like they rushed the set up through BvS (those JL teases could've been definitely saved for another film), I still felt like the talent and the pieces to a solid cinematic universe were all right there, waiting for proper development and cohesion. Alas, what we got instead was a bunch of meddling and carelessness, and now these movies' legacies are forever tainted.
This was nostalgic AF as I remembered and lived through these announcements, and WB didn’t invite Henry Cavill apparently cuz of conflicts with Mission Impossible Fallout when it was clear that they ALWAYS hated him! Which explains why he only got one movie, died in his second movie, only came back for Josstice League cuz he’s in the team and was let go till Dwayne Johnson wanted him in Black Adam and till James Gunn and Peter Safran showed him the door.
@@seanholmes7482 Like Sean Chandler said: No leadership. They gave it to Zack Snyder, panicked after the responses to BvS which led to them giving it to Geoff Johns, and Walter Hamada before they finally got their leaders with James Gunn and Peter Safran 9 years after Man Of Steel
@@ytuser_3122, Chandler also said WB's Man of Steel was never designed to be the starting point for a DC cinematic universe like Reynold's Green Lantern.
The DCEU was terrible from the start and only had a few films of interest for me throughout its run. Zach Snyder is mainly to blame for the universes cinematic failings. I am sympathetic to the event that happened in his life around the same time that WB let him go, but he made a lot of problems. "Man of Steel"took away the most important part of Superman and made him a "lonely god"character, something hammered into our heads throughout the film(and franchise) is how much like Jesus Superman is. The spear, the Christ poses, etc; I understand Superman can come off as the godlike character, but the biggest part about him is his humanity and his love for his adopted planet. I also dislike that he was not willing to save his adoptive father because his adoptive father said so, but when some guy spills beer on him, he destroys his truck in a way that can be construed as nothing BUT superpowers. And Snyder continually uses grey like he's trying to be Tim Burton. BVS was another failure. A rush to catch up to the MCU with no work, patience or care. Batman is a murdering vigilante on par with the Punisher, having given up on being anything but a killer thanks to Robin being killed(something that even Batman refused to do in the comics, which set up Red Hood's return). BVS's Batman is said to be based on the Batman of "Dark Knight Returns". However, this makes no sense, as Dark Knight Returns Batman never kills anyone(even the "I believe you"scene was said by Frank Miller to not have ended with the Mutant Girls death, but just injuring her). Only death you can post on him was the death of Joker, since he partially broke his neck and paralyzed him. But this is partially because of Snyder's edgelord personality(he was quoted on record saying that he would have wanted Batman Begins have Bruce Wayne raped in prison). We also rush to the battle between Batman and Superman which was the culmination of them knowing each other for YEARS, from just personally to the Justice League. And then we have it as a big death battle, with Luthor manipulating Superman and Batman into a fight. Batman's copying his speech from DKR makes no sense because the two don't know each other. I won't even go into "Marthaaaa!"because whats the point? The film was rushing to catch up and shoved as many heroes into the plot as they could to set up for Justice League, as well as set up plot points for copying "Injustice", setting up Darkseid and, finally, doing in the second movie what should have taken several to get to, "Death of Superman". How can we feel for Superman after two movies with him? Why do we care when he has a look on his face like he ate shit two seconds ago and he hates being a hero? I know that people think Reeve Superman was too bright and happy, but you have to make us like SOME aspect of the character for us to care. And we didn't care that he died because, even if we didn't have the obvious "dirt floating off coffin"scene in the movie, we knew he'd be back soon. "Suicide Squad"was rushed, way too dark(visually), tried to first be dark and serious and then went all bright and peppy with a lot of bright colours and pop music in an attempt to copy ANOTHER popular piece from the MCU, "Guardians of the Galaxy"(ironic, given who made the better "Suicide Squad"film years later). "Wonder Woman"was the first breath of fresh air to the DCEU. A good period piece, a fun film, awesome fight scenes and a good message.Aside from one bit in the movie, I have no problems with Wonder Woman. "Shazam"was an awesome representation of the comics(and the only good comic of "New52"). I loved it and I will defend it to death. "Justice League"('s): No matter what, both versions were terrible. CG moustache's and a rushed plot or just a way too long film split into two parts and pandering to whiny fanboys who kept demanding a Snyder cut(the Snyder Cut didn't make anything better, just longer and more boring). Again, trying to set up for later movies that would never happen(since WB said they were leaving Snyder behind)rather than having it as a finale to his version of the franchise. "Aquaman", even without my dislike of Amber Heard(brought on by the Depp trial)was just not...good. Too much CG, too much happening and Nicole Kidman's paralyzed facial features from her botox was just unpleasant. TL;DR: Only "The Suicide Squad", "Wonder Woman"and "Shazam!"really were good of the movies. Everything else was garbage.
Thank you for highlighting the absurdity of it. I trust James Gunn with his new vision, and much respect to the stars of the DCEU. I’ll never forget that four month period of hearing different news regarding the future. Jesus that was insane. But I’m honestly thrilled to see my childhood heroes on screen, even though I’ll be married and have kids by the time it kicks off.
I understand a lot of people didn’t like the DCEU, but I loved it, pretty much all of it. It didn’t fail in my opinion, even if it did from a money perspective. It will always have a place in my heart. Very excited for James Gunn’s new universe tho, and fresh restart.
it failed so miserably that the franchise is fucking dead in the gutter where it belongs, because its fucking trash. Stop taking so much copium, it doesnt change the fact lololol
Did you like WB's Flash movie? Did you like The Rock's Black Adam movie? Did you like WB's Birds of Prey movie, and what was good about all these WB DC movies? What are your thoughts and opinions about WB's Shazam Two? Truthfully, I think WB executes never wanted to create a DC shared universe and did so because of fan pressure. If you disagree, ask yourself how many WB movies about Bruce Wayne's origins were created compared to DC's Animal Man.
Agreed on some of your points. Overall, WB took a risk on handing the reigns over to Zack Snyder, and when that risk didn't pay out in the way they wanted, they were too slow to cut Snyder loose (OR they were contractually obligated to keep him on?). That, PLUS, they made mistake after mistake as they rushed to catch up with Marvel, rather than sit back and figure out how to properly fix the problem, and who could do the fixing. Hopefully, they have now done that. For your points that I'm not on board with 100%... RE to Reason #1 ... I think MoS was a flawed foundation period... for both a solo-Superman franchise OR a shared universe. If anything, the darker tone of MoS made it so that it would fit more easily with other dark tone characters like Batman, as well as some of the brighter toned characters, like the Flash & Wonder Woman. Though in doing that, they created a bigger problem wherein the character wasn't in tune with a lot of people's ideas of who Superman was. And his character seemingly changed to fit every subsequent movie he was in. Sometimes they would treat him like the Reeve's version, and sometimes like the Snyder version. (And to anyone who says you can't have an old fashioned Superman, I point to Captain America. You can make Superman a bit more modern, and still keep the "aw shucks" of him that's part of his core. If Snyder wanted to make a cynical superhero, he should have done THE BOYS, INVINCIBLE, or IRREEDEMABLE instead). RE to Reason #2 ... A lot of these "why DCEU failed" video essays tend to heavily forgive Snyder from his responsibility and put it mostly on the Studio. And the latter may be fair, given that Snyder is Snyder... they had ample evidence of his filmography as to what they could expect, so their fault for letting him run the show as long as he did. But you made a really good point about him being more of a niche artist with shortcomings w/r/t storytelling, and not hitting as many fans, but really getting the ones he does hit excited. Best essay explanation of Snyder I've seen so far. RE to Reason #4 ... I don't disagree with your points RE the reactionary re-do of JL not being a great idea, HOWEVER, I think the Studio's mistake was allowing Snyder to handle JL in the first place, as if he was gonna magically make something that they WOULD be comfortable with, after he had already dropped the ball (in their eyes) on MoS or BvS. By that point, the Studio knew Snyder's style. Also, I honestly don't think the Whedon version of JL is any worse than MoS or BvS. I like Whedon's humor, and didn't mind its injection into Snyder's Shared GREY-verse. And the fact that it cut out a lot of Snyder's story is seemingly more of a studio call than a Whedon call. Whedon was hired to do a job, and he did it. (Though he seemingly could've been nicer). RE to Reason #6 ... It's easy to infuriate fans... and bending over backwards to placate them can be a mixed bag. Sometimes you'll end up with a better looking Sonic the Hedgehog. Other times, you'll end up with JJ Abrams bending over backwards to make a horrible Episode 9 just to give people what they THINK they want. And sometimes, you may be listening to the LOUDEST fans, who may not represent ALL the fans. I don't know that I would hold THIS against WB. RE to Reason #8 ... I don't see a problem with a shared universe that doesn't share much. In fact, I think one of the problems with MoS ais that it's trying TOO hard to be shareable by going with a darker tone. The MCU was able to fit a WW2 soldier, a rage monster, and a Norse God all in the same shared universe and make it more or less believable, and each of those individual origin movies had their own tones. Now, since then, these characters have changed a bit to better fit the shared universe... Steve Rogers is more cynical & worldly, Thor is a lot looser & vulnerable, etc., but these changes occurred AFTER their foundational films. And one thing you may not have brought up, or maybe couched in one of your other reasons... issues with, and contradictions within, story & character development. - WW84 ... Wonder Woman presumably takes herself out of action, only to have been active in the 80s? Plus everyone on the planet gets their wishes granted, and not one person wishes the world is full of monsters or vampires or that everyone else would be gone. Not ONE dark wish? It seems ONLY there just to bring back Steve. - Suicide Squad ... they go on a mission that seems more fit for Justice League Dark. (They seemed to learn this lesson for the second movie though, where they initially think they only have to deal with a low level powered villain, rather than being sent from jump to deal with what will eventually turn out to be an OP super villain). - Amazon attire... Snyder couldn't help creating inconsistencies in even the most basic things. Patty Jenkins' Amazons in Wonder Woman were dressed like warriors... in Snyder movies they were dressed like they were showing off cars at an autoshow. - Superman ... sometimes he's Snyder's cynical version. Sometimes he acts, and is treated like, as if he was the Reeve's version. He was so involved with the destruction of Metropolis that Batman thought to kill him, yet he's lauded as a hero when he dies? Pick a lane! Also, he cry-screams when he breaks Zod's neck, but has no real feelings about the countless souls buried in Metropolis (all of which he should be able to hear), or even the other Kryptonians who also died that day. - BvS / Death of Superman / Flashpoint ... These are stories that mainly work because they're brought in either after a given hero is already established, or near the end of a hero's career... not at the beginning. They were all forced in as the second movies of particular characters out of desperation, rather than allow the characters to be developed a little more individually first. And because of the lack of history that doesn't exist yet, they don't hit as well as they should have. The DCEU has a lot of fun moments, but it's clear that the MCU had lighting in a bottle that the DCEU never had. Maybe James Gunn was able to snag that bottle from Feigi? We'll see, but I'm worried that we're starting with "creature commandos".
The suits who have zero imagination and creativity only thinking about money were trying to catch up with the MCU, trying to do carbon copies when they didn’t know the DC material being very different than Marvel. I loooove DC, huge huge fan. I liked most of the films with a couple of them being bad. But if they took their time, didn’t rush, and had faith in their directors and writers, they would’ve had a better outcome. Lesson? Don’t let the suits control in making the movies. Don’t meddle in ideas when your job is business, not art.
In my personal opinion, they botched the beginning of the franchise, which gave immediate signals to superhero and casual movie fans that this thing is not like the other (MCU). You've touched perfectly on Snyder, being the wrong director to lead a franchise. His lead franchise characters were too bland and uninteresting compared to what the MCU gave you. DC also didn't build properly into the events that took place in their movies. Having batman vs. Superman and Superman dying to then form the Justice League without establishing 3 of the actual members beforehand was moronic. The question would also be, why did we have a suicide squad movie if those guys played no part in the justice league. All their movies just had no rhyme or reason. Too much studio executive panic reactions to the MCU was the ultimate death of the DCEU.
I agree that the superhero bubble has popped. A few years ago I would have been ecstatic about Deadpool 3 but now I’m not certain I would go watch it at the theater. I know it will probably be great but the excitement isn’t there anymore. Superman Legacy has to be phenomenal for the DCU to have any chance at succeeding.
Honestly I think if Snyder did some of the films like some Batman films or heck some Superman films it would’ve been fine but having him do a 3 different films not from the same series kinda killed it
He was hired because he had experience with comic book movies. Same reason we got Josh Trank doing Fantastic Four, J. J. Abrams and Rian Johnson doing Star Wars, and Paul Feig doing Ghostbusters.
Snyder had an experience to adapt a superhero movie before which was Watchmen but it didn't work for Superman because Superman should be light hearted not being too grim and too dark. Would be better if he directed Batman movie because it will match to his directing style but Batman Nolan trilogy happened.
Their first mistake was trying to make Superman into Batman. Every time I watch Man of Steel, I keep thinking, this reminds me of Batman Begins. Also, Batman v Superman should have never happened. Everyone I knew that saw the trailer couldn't understand why they were fighting each other. I thought Wonder Woman was very good. I loved Shazam and Aquaman. Aquaman is my favorite DCEU movie and I'm going to go see Aquaman 2. The Flash surprised me.
Honestly one of the main reasons is the good versions of BvS and Justice League weren't released in theatres, so that ruined most people's impressions of the most important films in the franchise.
Great breakdown Sean! I concur with everything you said about Man of Steel not really designed to jump start a cinematic universe and rushing everything. What a missed opportunity; hope James Gunn has a solid plan.
I agree. It sucks because like Sean I think several of the DCEU films are really good (with Wonder Woman and The Suicide Squad being 2 of my top 100 favorite movies of all time) but the cinematic universe as a whole was just terribly mismanaged.
If Superman is not a good character to "jump start" a DC cinematic universe, which other character is the correct person to start a DC cinematic universe? I'd vote for DC's Ted Kord (aka: Blue Beetle Two) in connection to his role during the comic book story about Omac.
Nobody will miss old DC EU that much anyway. Where we stand now is that we have a good batman in Robert Pattinson, good joker in Jacquin Phoenix and James Gunn working on a new superman movie. There's still hope and we can get what we want yet.
Great video. I agree with your reasons and I think your take makes a lot of sense and you have explained it very well. Honestly your video deserves more views. Thank you for sharing, I'm subscribing to your channel now because of this vid.
Great video. I think superhero bubble hasn't popped yet, but close to it. Great video! Imo overall, i think reason why is because there's two different fandoms at war & WB/DC probly didnt know which route to go in and there's past reasons why and it all connects to Batman. How or Why i know that? Look to the past. Batman is only well-known Dark character in DC Comics thats bankable. Sure there's Entrigan The Demon, Azrael/ Batman aka Jean Paul Valley, Swampthing,Deadman,etc But alot of them are less likely to hold up on their own when many people do not know who they are unless they know their DC comics well. Back to subject, simply its because Snyder Fandom expect every single DC hero to be a carbon copy of Bale and/or Affleck's Batman. Dark, darker costumes, no humor in any DC film,etc. Not Dark enough, Not serious enough those Snyder Fans will yell. You might aswell say those fans expect R-rated DC Superman films, R rated WW films,etc showing lil nudity and more blood as seen in Heavy Metal Comics that Zack Snyder loves, not DC or Marvel's. Christopher Nolan never read a DC comic nor Batman comic before he was brought on to direct Batman Begins. Same with Tim Burton. Just a job to the latter two directors. Not insulting them here, stating actual facts. But mostly... Snyder Fandom expects Darker DC films all the time,regardless of the characters. They don't want Robin or the Bat-Family explored more in live action because what you see from them is " Batman won't be dark enough! Batman films will be bad again as Schumacher's was" They're dwell on bad things from past movies as lame excuses Not to do anything new in the DCU. They claimed they want Snyder to finish his two Justice League movies right, finish the story? IMO, if that's what they want, those movies can be streamed and/or released straight to home media format while Gunn's films will be seen in the theaters. But, Toxic Snyder Fans wont stop with Snyder's last two JL 2 & 3. They're gonna want more films directed by him , Nolan and cry to the heavens in boycotts till they do.
I’m very lukewarm on “Man of Steel” because it just got Superman wrong as a brooding and hesitant Superman. Also, it was so heavy handed with the destruction of Metropolis at the final battle, it was just really unpleasant to watch. Then comes Batman vs Superman, which was even darker, had more weak points in the plot (eg. “Save Martha”), and was also unpleasant to watch, just joyless. Finally, movies like “Flash”, which shouldn’t have been released because of the very problematic star, also shouldn’t have been released because the cheap special effects and cringy sequences that were just poor quality control, especially the first half of the movie.
"Brooding and hesitant Superman" That was the POINT of the movie. you introduce a character like that and have him DEVELOP AND CHOOSE TO BECOME the superman you know rather than being that way from the get go. NOT A SINGLE live action superman story delved too deep into Clark actually choosing to become the hero he is known to be
It’s simple: DC was just trying to copy from the MCU playbook. I don’t understand why people think DC is the “more serious and mature” franchise when these films exist. Seriously, WW84, BvS (yes, even the director cut), Suicide Squad 2016, and the recent DCEU movies this year are just not good. Funnily enough, the MCU started out strong but is now flopping hard, while the DCEU has a few good movies but is inconsistent, even from the beginning.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together, Sean. While I must admit I don't agree with a lot of the assertions, I do understand that this was an enterprise you cared a lot about and have thought about quite a bit. I think I come at these movies from a different perspective, so there were other reasons why I believe DCEU failed, but I wholly agree that WB was (and let's be honest, still is) far too reactionary, needed to plant the seeds, and then had to have the confidence to let what they planted grow. Or, if WB only speaks in financial advisor talk now, it needed to make the investment and then not hover over and tweak it at every turn. It sold when it needed to buy, and vice versa. On that point, I think you and I agree.
Well, personally, I never would have enjoyed this project, as I don't like Snyder's vision of the world, his aesthetic, or an angst-filled Superman. Oh, and I think Goyer is a hack. So none of this would ever have worked...for me. Why it didn't work in general...the reasons you provided are as good as any.
I think now that the DCEU is over that the pressure will be off. The franchise and in later years people will look back on the movies more fondly because there won't be the pressure from DC vs Marvel anymore by then.
When I saw the lineup, I knew it was going to fail. How can you make a Batman V Superman movie WITHOUT allowing people to be introduced to Batman? Then why make a Justice League movie with the introduction of just 3 characters? And then MAKE ANOTHER JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE WITH 2 MORE CHARACTERS!?!?! Yeah i know plans have changed and all since the original plan debut but it was such a mess
Great video! Definitely recommend The Critical Drinker’s Production Hell video on the DCEU too, he does a great l breakdown of the mistakes that plagued the universe from beginning to end
I think you said it all here, Sean lol Too many visions that were presented and not chosen. Zack Snyder is a visionary but as a story teller there’s some rough things there. Even with a cool Man of Steel and a surprisingly decent cut of Justice League after the mess that was BvS…I’m not sure he was the guy for a shared universe. He could have had a cool Man of Steel trilogy though.
Man of Steel is a good movie, I have it on DVD. But I kinda wish that movie was made into a solo Trilogy and introduced other villians like Brainiac and Metello. Even though I like Batman Vs Superman, I do feel Batman was introduced way too fast. If they had went the animated route and started with Batman first, then brought in Superman I think the DCEU would of had a better chance at success.
Yes. B v S came much too soon. They should have gone with an independent DCEU Batman movie (perhaps The Death of Robin). Would have set a much better stage for the eventual team up. Save the versus for after the friendship is established. It has no meaning if there is no prior relationship (unlike Civil War where your heart just aches when Tony says I was your friend too).
Batman would have been a better start to building a universe. But I can see why they would not since we had multiple versions of Batman over the last few decades. Kind of like how CW had Green Arrow -Batman clone to build their universe. Maybe start with Jim Gordon and Gotham police and mix in some superhero stuff from average Joe POV kind of like Marvels, the comic book mini series. Or even Detective Montoya and later the Question to introduce the superhero world. So many options, but instead of building the universe, try telling a couple of good stories first.
No! If you listened carefully to what Sean Chandler said in this video, he clearly explained that the first DCEU movie Man of Steel doomed all attempts to setup a WB DC shared universe because the premise was that there are no gods or heroes a-part from Superman. Do you see a way WB's DCEU could have gotten pass Man of Steel's hindering premise?
@@seanholmes7482 Not at all. I'm just saying there are alternative ways of starting a new movie universe for DC that does not start with Batman or Superman.
People are quick to blame Warnos Bros. And that's fair, they are the #1 reason the DCEU failed. But I think too many people are quick to defend and or ignore Zack Snyder's contribution. I think he fundamentally doesn't understand these characters, mainly Batman and Superman, and if you look at his career, he's yet to make a solid movie. Every movie he's made is either bad or at best good with a couple issues. His career is full of box office bombs, poor adaptations that are shunned by their OG creators and movies with average reviews. It's one thing to call him polarising, but at some point you just have to say he's a bad director. If a chef constantly makes food that the majority of people don't like, you say they're a bad chef. And the reaction to Rebel Moon is proof
I don't at all agree with this summary of Snyder's career. You're clearly not a fan. Which is totally fair. But you're ignoring all the people that DO love large amounts of his work. That's what polarizing means. That's what being niche means. You don't judge a chef purely based off if they make broad appeal food for everyone. McDonalds isn't filled with great chefs because they're broad appeal. And Snyder isn't a bad director because Watchmen and 300 aren't for everyone.
@SeanChandlerTalksAbout I do like some of his movies. I liked Dawn of the Dead, watchmen, aspects of Sucker Punch, Army of the Dead, his Justice League and aspects of Man of Steel. But if you look at them as a whole, taking away personal opinions, it's a string of poor box office results and mixed reviews. Romero didn't like Dawn of the Dead, Moore didn't like Watchmen. Sucker Punch got some comments for being kinda sexist, the failed Owls movie, the known problems with the DCEU and his takes on Batman and Superman as charactes, and now these poor reviews from rebel moon. It's failure after failure and that's coming from someone who liked alot of those failures. Yes, I get he's polarising. But to be making movies for almost 20 years and still yet to have one that's universally praised is an issue. And tbh, when we say polarising, he isn't a rob zombie who makes movies for a very particular group of people. Snyder has attempted to make movies for a range of audiences and has constantly missed. But I respect that you disagree and that's fair. I love your videos. Keep up the good work
And right now, since DCEU and MCU are dying (well DCEU is dead now), ironically, the only movie universe which still works right now is Monsterverse. Because unlike MCU and DCEU, the human characters on Monsterverse aren't too important as they keep changing actors every movies and people want to see Big Monsters fight.
@@margarethmichelina5146 I find it bizarre that out of the attempted cinematic universes made to ride off of and catch up to the MCU, only the Monsterverse is the ONLY one that’s succeeding.
@@hunterolaughlin Because every ending of Monsterverse is always vague. Either Godzilla and Kong always get their own happy endings so you confused either the sequel is gonna continue or not. Except for Kong: Skull Island and King of The Monsters, they clearly set up that these 2 big monsters are gonna meet someday and fight and it builds up to Godzilla vs Kong movie. Also, after learning of how messed Batman v Superman was, they made Godzilla and Kong immediately fighting for the first 30 minutes on the movie while Batman and Superman took around almost 1 hour runtime to finally fight with so many people talking and walking. They also learn from the first 2 Godzilla movies for having so many humans with their stupid conflict and decision while Godzilla himself in 2014 movie lacked of screen time. While in Kong: Skull Island, the humans are also too many but they make it likeable especially John C. Reilly stole the screen time with his charisma and comedic timing.
My reasons for why the DCEU failed: 1. They were in a hurry; Instead of taking their time to set up all the characters before crossing them over, DC felt they were lagging behind Marvel so they rushed into the shared universe. Batman was “implied” to have gone over the edge after Robin was murdered but they didn’t bother giving us a solo film that shows him undergo this transformation and instead introduce him in Batman v Superman. Wonder Woman got her origin story film AFTER her first appearance in BvS. Aquaman got his AFTER Justice League. Cyborg and Flash? They weren’t even given origin story films and had to dedicate a chunk of the runtime of Zack Snyder’s Justice League to properly flesh them out. 2. They chose just one filmmaker to implement his vision for the universe; You can’t choose one director to do most of the different films in a franchise where there are so many different characters and teams. Zack Snyder did well with his cut of Justice League but he was not suited to do a film about Superman. Can you imagine if Sam Raimi did a Superman film, portraying him with the same hope and optimism as Tobey’s Spider-Man? Different characters are suited to different tones; don’t give all of them the same dark and dramatic feel. 3. The studio kept unnecessarily interfering; Batman v Superman was cut down, Suicide Squad was completely re-edited, re-written and re-shot, Justice League was completely ruined by hiring Whedon, who rewrote and filmed many pages of the script. What is the point of hiring directors if you’re not going to stand by them? 4. The studio lost their major talent; Ben Affleck got into alcoholism after all the troubles filming Justice League and decided he couldn’t play Batman anymore. They cut ties with Henry Cavill as Superman. They angered Ray Fisher. 5. They de-emphasised the shared nature of the universe; After everything, they decided to indefinitely delay the Justice League sequel and just do standalone films about the characters instead. There’s no more Batman or Superman anymore. There are no more team-up films. At that point, it’s not a cinematic universe.
Whether you like or dislike him, Zack Snyder was objectively the wrong person to start the DCEU. His plans for the DCEU would have basically ended the franchise after five films and would have left no room for anyone else to leave their vision on the franchise or to continue the story of the DCEU. Kevin Fiege makes movies for everyone and looks for directors/writers that can make that happen. Zack Snyder makes movies for himself and people that like his movies and absolutely no one else. Because of that the DCEU never had a strong foundation to build upon and a house of cards was built on a broken table at the fastest speed possible. The failure of BvS sent WB into panic mode, destroyed Suicide Squad, and threw Justice League under the bus. From there, every mistake and overreaction would accumulate until it eventually collapsed and fell apart. Throw in a global pandemic, a series of bad actors and scandals, and AT&T selling DC to David Zaslav who proceeds to tear the whole franchise down; and that’s why the DCEU died. In the end, every mistake can be traced back to the fatal decision to have Zack Snyder start the DCEU. Had they picked a more crowd pleasing director who made them a solid film to build the DCEU and they didn’t rush to BvS, then none of this would be happening.
Batman V. Superman is what killed it. BvS had Avengers level hype going into it. It was the first time we got a live action meeting between Batman and Superman in a blockbuster film. But the film itself had a massive drop and failed to even break a billion. It did not live up to the hype, and it also killed Justice League.
WB's Biggest Failure Was Rushing Into A Justice League Movie With Most Of Their Characters Being Miss characterized And Still In The Middle Of Their Origin The Biggest Thing James Gunn's DCU Has Going For It That Most Of Their Heroes Have Gone Through Their Origins And Were Just Gonna Jump Into Stories They Also Put Like Three Of Their Biggest Storylines Into Batman V Superman And Failed
If I were in charge of the DCEU, I would build it off of the Chrstifer Nolan Batman trilogy and use that as a foundation, and introduce Superman, Wonder Woman, etc., and eventually bring the Justice League together just like what Marvel did with the Avengers. There's a reason why they started with Iron Man, then Captain America, then Thor, and introduce all the other characters. Like it's not that hard. These characters just need good direction and a good amount of screen time so the audience can better connect with and care about them in a more interconnected and cohesive continuity and establish the world better and introduce iconic villains just like what Marvel did.
Nolan didn't want to allow it, the studio wanted too. It's amazing how Nolan is getting off scott free in all of this. He even had WB kill the Goerge Miller JL movie that was planned since like 2008.
Agreed! However, two issues remained a problem besides WB's unwillingness to create a DC shared universe. First, Brandon's Superman (2006) movie did not work with audiences, which followed after Bale's Batman (2005), and Ryan Reynold's Green Lantern (the original WB DC shared universe movie) didn't win over audiences. What WB DC character(s) should start Gunn's DCU now? I vote for DC's Ted Kord (aka: Blue Beetle Two) and that comic book Omac story.
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*Why did the DCEU failed miserably? Mainly due to the fact that it seems like Warner Bros. was trying to catch up with MCU at a time when the franchise was not only great, but also consistent. Because of that the franchise suffered miserably. Why? Simply because the fact that they didn’t really take the time to tell their stories which made it hard for the audiences care about the characters of what made them special from the DC comics.*
And Warner Bros picking Zack Snyder to shepherd the DCEU😂
@@申月営無営月無営有申Zack Snyder wasn’t that guy to lead the DCEU. If Toby and Walter played their cards right, they would’ve given the chance to find an experience writer at DC Comics to be the new Kevin Feige of the DCEU. With all due respect to Snyder and you can hate him all you want, but it’s the former heads that failed.
Post-Snyder DCEU is basically the same as post-Endgame MCU. Lots of disconnected stuff with no clear vision.
@@LinkMarioSamus Technically there is a clear vision to the MCU. There's just so MUCH of the MCU and people are tired of it. So quality wouldn't matter if everyone's burned out.
DCEU
This is genuinely the best video I’ve seen discussing why it didn’t work. Great job.
I love your channel too
Dude, your videos are the best. So cool that you watch Sean as well!
Very well said Sean. Poor planning, trying to build a shared universe too quickly, the universe not feeling connected, bringing in Josh Whedon to direct re-shoots and having movies like The Flash and Blue Beetle come out in 2023 (10 Years after the DCEU began) ultimately killed the DCEU.
Your breakdown of Zack Snyder's style is really on point. I feel like he is easily one of the best visual directors in the industry but his style of directing, writing, and filming is not the best or for everyone.
Man is only good with visuals , which is good enough for low IQ people.
His style is too dark, literally and figuratively. Too much grey in his movies. And Superman is too dark while his Batman is dark; there is no contrast between our heroes. That is bad writing. I understand Zack Snyder said his Superman was going to develop to the iconic Superman down the road after a couple of movies. But if that is the case, then don’t kill Superman in his second movie and don’t introduce Batman yet. It is a mess rushing things.
This is definitely Frankenstein monster between Zack and execs.
@@brianng8350facts 💯
@@brianng8350Also, My problem is to stop and I like ZackSiders movies. That was a tonal mismatch and they should have put him on a project. He didn't sell that. If it was up to me I would have either made him work on me now. James Gunn authority film or make a alternative universe on the Injustice. Branding that later on in a multiversal story could be potentially folded into the main universe. Never worked on the main establishing characters because of his style and direction. It's not that it's bad. It's just not a match.
Thats why people need to collaborate with other great artists and not try to do everything on their own
It always bothered me that there was never a solo Batman movie for the DCEU when batman vs Superman came out.
Yeah, good point about Affleck getting turned off by the JL fiasco. That ended manganiello from being deathstroke too..
I actually really wanted a shared DC universe back when Batman Begins and Superman Returns both came out, then we got that teaser in I Am Legend - I was SO excited about seeing those two particular movies with Chirstian Bale and Brandon Routh crossover at some point and it makes me wonder about what could have been. And that was a few years before the MCU.
Here are seven reasons I came up with for how the DCEU failed
1. Man of Steel wasn’t designed to be the foundation for a universe
2. WB wanted to catch up to the Marvel Cinematic Universe so much that Batman v Superman feels like several movies smashed into one film
3. Zack Snyder isn’t filmmaker who appeals to everyone
4. WB executives couldn’t stop micromanaging projects like 2016’s Suicide Squad and the 2017 version of Justice League
5. The tone of the DCEU is incredibly inconsistent to the point of DC fans not knowing if Blue Beetle is part of the DCEU or the upcoming DCU
6. All along the way, the quality of projects weren’t consistent enough in quality for general audiences to keep showing up
7. WB couldn’t stick to a plan long enough for the box office to really show solid results
Yea we watched Sean’s video too lol
2. The reason why BvS feels like several movies smashed into one is bc it is exactly that, the key point here is that this wasn't done by WB's specifications, they just wanted Batman and to tease the JL, the rest of the movie, the story, the plot, the characterizacion, the writing, etc, was ALL Snyder's vision. WB gave him carte blanche with the project, they even let him do things they were against like killing Dick Grayson, since they had a Nightwing project in development for quite some time and they still let Snyder kill Dick in the DCEU.
Zack was the one who decided to make a veteran murderer Batman, kill Jimmy Olsen and Dick Grayson, kill off Superman only to bring him back in the next movie, the convoluted nonsensical story, "save Martha", ADHDH Lex Luthor, LOTR troll Doomsday, etc. The movie failed bc the vision for it was flawed and badly executed by Snyder himself.
Almost everything you said in this chat was covered by Sean Chandler's video. What are opinions on WB's Suicide Squad movies?
This. 100% agreed
1 goes to Nolan insisting no BM hook-up with SM. He still had that much pull and influence with Warner. I guess because they thought he might make still yet another lousy BM film.
You could honestly make a movie about the DCEU’s failure
I want to write it with you if you like.
@@jerogomezrobledo Bet
And it'll do better than any DCEU movie😅
@@lawrencericho3635 Nah, probably won’t break Aquaman’s billion or BvS 850 million
Spot on! The biggest take is they didn’t take their time! From a business standpoint you would think they would spread stories across multiple films instead of cramming everything into one movie! Marvel had success because it was fresh, good storytelling, and character development. It’s a shame because I was really excited about DC. I wanted good competition between studios. As a fan that give me good product from both.
From what I've heard, Snyder didn't have a slate in the first place, he had a five movie story arc and it was up to the writers and directors to lead up to the story.
Pretty much
#1 point was spot on. I never felt like Man Of Steel was made with intent to launch a franchise. But... It still could've been pulled off had they taken their time.
It's over now, but they definitely should have made at least one more movie after Man of Steel before getting to the Justice League.
Simple, WB kept changing their agenda in order to keep up with Marvel. This plan failed horribly when it resulted in 10 flops, half of the JL cast quitting, and they elected to make movies without a plan or any direction whatsoever. Warner Brothers needed to stop interfering and let the directors do their thing.
4:50 that's why man of steel works best as it's stand alone film not apart of a cinematic universe. Man of steel as it's own standalone movie is one of my favourite movies
It was a combination of WB wanting to play catch-up and Zack Snyder having no understanding of the characters he was given.
he understood the characters, but he just didn't want to follow it
@@gothcakes He definitely didn't understand the characters. When your Superman is stoic and wooden and your Batman is behaving like the Punisher, something is wrong.
Really loved what you said about Man of Steel. If anything, that should’ve been treated like the Nolan trilogy - in its own universe. I never thought of that until you brought it up
From Emergency Awesome, I heard the trilogy Zack had originally planned. It sounded interesting. I would not mind seeing it as alternative timeline/Elsewhere story kind of like Injustice storyline. But Zack was wrong choice for main universe.
1. Studio interference
2. Trying to copy competition
3. Lack of Faith in directors
Don't forgot CEO micro-managing, if that wasn't what you already said on line one.
I really hope James Gunn gives proper and absolute justice to the new DC cinematic franchise, and that he directs a lot of them, he did great with The Suicide Squad.
yea I disagree with the second part
The DCEU is a cautionary tale of what happens when you put looking good in front of an audience, instead of bringing them in for a wonderful story. I hope that the DCU lasts longer
How do you know what the DCEU producers prioritized before their projects came to an end?
@@seanholmes7482 Two Words. Hollywood Reporter
@@VictoryArtz, one word! Huh?
DCEU failed the opposite way Disney Star Wars failed. DCEU got too much interference, Disney Star Wars lack studio guidance.
I think the main reason was Warner Bros' constant reactionary last minute meddling, butchering their projects early on, I honestly believe had they released BVS, Suicide Squad and Justice League as their directors intended without any studio meddling we'd have a thriving, or at least consistent cinematic universe right now
Not sure who suggested death of Superman or Doomsday or introducing Batman in a second Superman movie is one of the biggest pivotal mistake to death of DCEU. Second movie and you are killing the main character? WTF…?
Agree
Even if they had released the original versions it would be elevated the movies from 3/10 to maybe 5/10 at best, and they would have still had fundamental writing issues. The 4-hour Snyder cut version of Justice League would have been an amazing movie to see back in maybe 2010. It wasn't a bad movie, but it felt extremely dated, simplistic and bland compared to what MCU delivered during 2010-2018.
@@brianng8350They probably should of let Snyder and co. go with their original plan of a standalone Superman trilogy akin to Nolan's Dark Knight.
Idk if I 100% agree but I know the one thing that consistently horrible between all the movies is the editing. Whoever was in charge of studio editing needed to GO!!
It's surreal that it started 10 years ago and is ending not only this year but this week.
- Rushing out Sub Par movies to catch up with Marvel
- No Vision
- Lack of consistency and not sticking to an idea (sacking Zack Snyder)
- Muddled Tone (BVS was too dark, Justice League was too light hearted)
- Problems behind the scenes with Warner Bros
- Axing and Shelving movies
- Awful CGI and Writing
That sums it all up
Also to add on to the first reason of a horrible foundation, but the studio was not looking at what they're TV and Animation departments did or doing to get a full idea as to how build the universe organically. Which I think is probably one of the big take aways we can learn from this train wreck which is if your forcing out your cinematic universe then your gonna force out writing that won't feel organic.
The studio was run by idiots who couldn’t care less and only DC as a cash to milk
Bingo
Picked the wrong director to start off with, then didn’t even let him completely own it.
I really loved the DCEU but I wish we got Man of Steel 2 and a Batman solo film before BVS. I'm sad it's over , but I understand why it had to end
It's crazy to me that the Avengers came out 4 years after Iron Man and the Justice League came out 4 years after Man of Steel, yet JL felt so rushed while the Avengers felt like the huge payoff after so many years of anticipation. Since we just had the Dark Knight trilogy wrap up, I don't think you necessarily needed another solo Batman movie, but in the first 4 years they could've done something like:
2013: Man of Steel
2014: Wonder woman
2015: World's Finest
2016: Man of Steel 2, Aquaman
2017: Trinity movie
2018: Flash, Green Lantern
2019: Justice League
Agreed! However, I would add DC's Green Arrow.
This is how it should have gone movie wise:
1. Man of Steel
2. Batman Movie (against deathstroke with hints of what happened in Man of steel to connect them)
3. Wonder Woman
4. Man of Steel 2 ( to build up how awesome Superman is, so that the Audience can connect with him, go the Richard donner way)
5. Suicide Squad (introduce flash in this movie)
6. Aqua man
7. Batman V Superman (don’t kill Superman and don’t introduce doomsday let them fight lex or Brianiac at the end)
8. Green lantern
9. Shazam
10.Justice League on the realm of the justice league the animated movie but instead of dark side they fight steppenwolf.
11. Death of Superman
12. Black Adam ( remaining justice league struggling to get black Adam under control, end it with a cliff hanger with they reviving Superman like Zack snyders justice league)
13. Justice league 2 (all of them fight against Black Adam (where black Adam is in contact with lex and few other villains from the past movies, with the help of resurrected Superman they defeat them all but darkside shows up and controls Superman with anti life matter.
14. Justice league 3, Black Adam sees how dangerous Superman could be if on the wrong side,he helps the Justice league fight Superman and get Superman out the control of darkside and final battle all Justice league members against Darkside. Ahhh what DCEU could have been🎉🎉🎉
That would've been better.
The DCEU what a tragedy.
I like how man of steel was superman being the first ever superhero and superman legacy is going to be superman after a bunch of superheroes.
Just remember. When its all over and the chips are down, Aquaman was not only the most successful dceu movie, but DC movie EVER. Who the hell would have predicted the fish man would do better than the big 3 five years ago
It was fun and competently made by a director with a long history of making good movies. crazy.
We probably will never know the extent of what went down but I suspect it had a lot to do with misbehavior and/or people being treated badly by Walter Hamada. He seems to be a big source of toxicity that keeps coming up in stories about the making of Justice League and that time period in the DCEU.
One of the things that’s so annoying about a lot of movies is when they make full CGI characters that simply do not need to be CGI characters, like Steppenwolf in Justice League and Billy Connelly’s dwarf guy in the Hobbit Battle of Five Armies. It’s so irritating because it looks fake and inconsistent with the other characters in the movie.
I'm convinced Dwayne Johnson and his people sabotaged the Superman cameo in Shazam.
The leadership at WB is what really killed the DCEU. They wanted their own MCU money and when things didn't completely pan out like they wanted, they overcorrected and micromanaged until Josstice League lost money and they spent the next several years throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck. With Snyder's departure, coupled with studio politics and conflicting agendas, there was no Kevin Feige-like figure to hold everything together. WB had no idea what they were doing.
Fingers crossed that James Gunn can make something work and I hope those involved with the old DCEU are doing well now (well, most of them, anyway).
After ZS JL I do believe if he had actual freedom things would have been different. James gunn probably knows he can take warner bros ideas and turn it into something positive when there’s more chances it could be a bad idea. Like rushing for a superhero Group movie for example. Although rebel moon disappointed people it did feel like weight of the shoulder that “okay he doing his thing” without anyone on his back
About 5 minutes in, I just wanted to say that this was really a missed opportunity. These were the live-action films I had been waiting for since they announced a Batman/Superman movie back in the 2000s at the height of the Nolan-verse and the Smallville TV run when WB put an embargo on the Bat franchise. Now, I have to wait another decade or more for a fully-fleshed out DC Universe. Considering my age and the decline in superhero movie hype, I'm just not that excited anymore... I go back to the Timm-verse DCAU every now and then just to dream of what could have been... RIP Kevin Conroy.
Superman Legacy will be a Rebirth.
@@mayotango1317 Like how many years from now will it have trilogies and cross-overs? Can my youth/health wait? Will I still be alive to enjoy it when that day comes? I dunno... If you're still young to enjoy it with friends and family and relish it years after through re-runs, good for you... 👍
1:33 Fun fact Man of Steel wasn't supposed to be the first film in the DCEU, that was supposed to be the Green Lantern... let that sink in.
When the MCU was at its height if you compared it to where the DCEU was during that time it was the biggest triumph Marvel had over DC since the late 1970s and early 1980s (when Marvel had around 70% of the comics market share which is about the same amount that Marvel and DC combined have now, but in the mid-80s DC came back swinging hard with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns).
Thank you Sean for always bringing us quality content!
I’m glad you made this video! I was LIT’RALLY gonna cover some of this stuff in written form. I’m gonna bite the bullet and watch EVERY DCEU movie one more time, and rank them all. The vision and development will be huge factors.
The really sad thing is that this is not the end. This mismanagement of the DC brand by WB is only in the initial stages of death. Talk to anyone in maintstream culture and DC is (at best) a laughing stock, and often, despised and reviled. They have all grown up with Marvel and the MCU and that's who they now know and love. I'm not just talking movies here. Look at the merchanidising genre, TV/series, animation, comics, boardgames, etc etc. Across all popular culture, DC is rapidly becoming relegated to history. I'm devastated. I will never forgive WB.
Great list of reasons.
I consider the shifts in tone/style and having so any standalone projects we got this decade the biggest failures.
If there had to be a book on the DCEU failures, I would want you to write it, Sean.😉
Sean is well-versed enough towards everything that's happened that I agree he could write the perfect book about the whole thing.
That is an interesting request! Sean Chandler's video critiques WB's DC live action cinematic projects, but it never puts forth idea(s) on how to "write" a DC cinematic universe. What are your suggestions about how WB's DC cinematic universe stories should be written, and which character(s) would you start with first?
I hope DC Studios will avoid all the crap we're just tired of.
I'm tired of terrible writing.
I'm tired of terrible people who don't immediately suffer the consequences of their actions.
I'm tired of hard-working talented people getting screwed over.
I'm tired of empty promises.
I'm tired of separate universes.
I'm tired of all of it!
DC, as a brand, deserve better and on some level in their thick heads, the Warner Bros executives know this. And with Gunn confirming that DC Studios is practically separate from executive input, it gives me the sigh of relief I needed for eight years!
You don't like the Multiverse?
Aren't you somewhat worried about Gunns WB DCU, given Reeve's Batman continues to exist outside of Gunn's projects forcing audience that struggle with money problems to select between Robert Patterson's Dark Knight and the DCU? Also, are you concern that James Gunn could not stop the DCEU "trainreck" that will be Aquaman: Lost Kingdom?
There’s a few reasons:
1. WB tried to catch up with Marvel and their success instead of moving at a safe pace.
2. They brought in a director (Zack Snyder) who doesn’t understand these characters and their core values, while also having a style that’s an acquired taste. I don’t feel like Snyder is meant to direct superhero movies. He seems more comfortable making edgy and dramatic films that are more eye candy than story based, and there’s no problem with that for the most part. You can’t give a director like that access to superheroes who already have a background and lore created for them, because then they’ll manipulate it to fit their style. He just wasn’t meant to direct these characters.
3. They didn’t have an overall story planned out for the entire span of the universe. They pitched and announced random movies that were loosely connected to the very scattered universe, and most of them were never even made.
4. WB had zero intentions of pleasing the fans of DC or superheroes I’m general. They were so money hungry that it blinded them from doing what it would take to actually make ppl watch their movies in theaters. If they had given the people what they wanted and understood their audience and the material they make, the DCEU could’ve been just as if not more successful than the MCU.
Your spicy food analogy perfectly describes Zach Snyder’s appeal
Then explain dark knight, joker and Logan
The main films that highlight *precisely* where the franchise went wrong.
1. Man of Steel - A very unique take (arguably to a fault) on the Superman mythos, with a *standalone* design that aligned to the expectations DC built for itself in the movie space at the time, and only got better as time went on.
2. Batman v Superman - That one time a visionary, if polarizing, director tried to build a cohesive story out of a bunch of misguided studio notes & expectations, touching on contemporary cynicism while unsuccessfully trying to mask the studio's newfound reactionary habits.
3. Suicide Squad - Warner Bros' first attempt at course correction proved that the studio learned all the wrong lessons from Batman v Superman's performance. Instead of advocating for talents and their visions while strengthening their worldbuilding, they decided to expose their films as blatant reactionary products.
4. Justice League - The turning point for the franchise in the worst way possible. If abruptly scrapping years-long work and throwing talents under the bus weren't enough, WB chose to piss on itself by bowing to the competition, bringing forth an unrecognizable frankestein of a product that'd perfectly sum up the franchise's identity (or lack thereof) for years to come.
I agree. It sucks because like Sean I think several of the DCEU films are really good (with Wonder Woman and The Suicide Squad being 2 of my top 100 favorite movies of all time) but the cinematic universe as a whole was just terribly mismanaged.
@@cooperwolfe5478 The only films I didn't care for were Black Adam, WW84, Suicide Squad, Shazam 2 and of course the theatrical JL. Everything else I enjoyed very much, with their respective highs and lows.
Even though I did feel like they rushed the set up through BvS (those JL teases could've been definitely saved for another film), I still felt like the talent and the pieces to a solid cinematic universe were all right there, waiting for proper development and cohesion. Alas, what we got instead was a bunch of meddling and carelessness, and now these movies' legacies are forever tainted.
This was nostalgic AF as I remembered and lived through these announcements, and WB didn’t invite Henry Cavill apparently cuz of conflicts with Mission Impossible Fallout when it was clear that they ALWAYS hated him! Which explains why he only got one movie, died in his second movie, only came back for Josstice League cuz he’s in the team and was let go till Dwayne Johnson wanted him in Black Adam and till James Gunn and Peter Safran showed him the door.
So, what was the main issue with WB's DCEU?
@@seanholmes7482 Like Sean Chandler said: No leadership. They gave it to Zack Snyder, panicked after the responses to BvS which led to them giving it to Geoff Johns, and Walter Hamada before they finally got their leaders with James Gunn and Peter Safran 9 years after Man Of Steel
@@ytuser_3122, Chandler also said WB's Man of Steel was never designed to be the starting point for a DC cinematic universe like Reynold's Green Lantern.
ONLY 1 REASON - WB
So , David S Goyer was right about telling Variety to point out where DCEU went wrong
The DCEU was terrible from the start and only had a few films of interest for me throughout its run. Zach Snyder is mainly to blame for the universes cinematic failings. I am sympathetic to the event that happened in his life around the same time that WB let him go, but he made a lot of problems.
"Man of Steel"took away the most important part of Superman and made him a "lonely god"character, something hammered into our heads throughout the film(and franchise) is how much like Jesus Superman is. The spear, the Christ poses, etc; I understand Superman can come off as the godlike character, but the biggest part about him is his humanity and his love for his adopted planet. I also dislike that he was not willing to save his adoptive father because his adoptive father said so, but when some guy spills beer on him, he destroys his truck in a way that can be construed as nothing BUT superpowers. And Snyder continually uses grey like he's trying to be Tim Burton.
BVS was another failure. A rush to catch up to the MCU with no work, patience or care. Batman is a murdering vigilante on par with the Punisher, having given up on being anything but a killer thanks to Robin being killed(something that even Batman refused to do in the comics, which set up Red Hood's return). BVS's Batman is said to be based on the Batman of "Dark Knight Returns". However, this makes no sense, as Dark Knight Returns Batman never kills anyone(even the "I believe you"scene was said by Frank Miller to not have ended with the Mutant Girls death, but just injuring her). Only death you can post on him was the death of Joker, since he partially broke his neck and paralyzed him. But this is partially because of Snyder's edgelord personality(he was quoted on record saying that he would have wanted Batman Begins have Bruce Wayne raped in prison). We also rush to the battle between Batman and Superman which was the culmination of them knowing each other for YEARS, from just personally to the Justice League. And then we have it as a big death battle, with Luthor manipulating Superman and Batman into a fight. Batman's copying his speech from DKR makes no sense because the two don't know each other. I won't even go into "Marthaaaa!"because whats the point? The film was rushing to catch up and shoved as many heroes into the plot as they could to set up for Justice League, as well as set up plot points for copying "Injustice", setting up Darkseid and, finally, doing in the second movie what should have taken several to get to, "Death of Superman". How can we feel for Superman after two movies with him? Why do we care when he has a look on his face like he ate shit two seconds ago and he hates being a hero? I know that people think Reeve Superman was too bright and happy, but you have to make us like SOME aspect of the character for us to care. And we didn't care that he died because, even if we didn't have the obvious "dirt floating off coffin"scene in the movie, we knew he'd be back soon.
"Suicide Squad"was rushed, way too dark(visually), tried to first be dark and serious and then went all bright and peppy with a lot of bright colours and pop music in an attempt to copy ANOTHER popular piece from the MCU, "Guardians of the Galaxy"(ironic, given who made the better "Suicide Squad"film years later).
"Wonder Woman"was the first breath of fresh air to the DCEU. A good period piece, a fun film, awesome fight scenes and a good message.Aside from one bit in the movie, I have no problems with Wonder Woman.
"Shazam"was an awesome representation of the comics(and the only good comic of "New52"). I loved it and I will defend it to death.
"Justice League"('s): No matter what, both versions were terrible. CG moustache's and a rushed plot or just a way too long film split into two parts and pandering to whiny fanboys who kept demanding a Snyder cut(the Snyder Cut didn't make anything better, just longer and more boring). Again, trying to set up for later movies that would never happen(since WB said they were leaving Snyder behind)rather than having it as a finale to his version of the franchise.
"Aquaman", even without my dislike of Amber Heard(brought on by the Depp trial)was just not...good. Too much CG, too much happening and Nicole Kidman's paralyzed facial features from her botox was just unpleasant.
TL;DR: Only "The Suicide Squad", "Wonder Woman"and "Shazam!"really were good of the movies. Everything else was garbage.
The real 10 reasons the dceu failed
1. Zack snyder
2. Snyder
3. Snyder cultists
4. WB
5. excessive slowmo
6. All flash no substance
7. Snyderbros
8. Josh whedon
9. Snyder ball lickers
10. Zackary snyder
Damn man, 😢 You have a way with Words, and all of them are true and spoken of the Heart. I can respect that.
@@markomarinic3073why thank you , im here on weekends 😄
Thank you for highlighting the absurdity of it. I trust James Gunn with his new vision, and much respect to the stars of the DCEU. I’ll never forget that four month period of hearing different news regarding the future. Jesus that was insane. But I’m honestly thrilled to see my childhood heroes on screen, even though I’ll be married and have kids by the time it kicks off.
I understand a lot of people didn’t like the DCEU, but I loved it, pretty much all of it. It didn’t fail in my opinion, even if it did from a money perspective. It will always have a place in my heart. Very excited for James Gunn’s new universe tho, and fresh restart.
It failed 😂😂😂
it failed so miserably that the franchise is fucking dead in the gutter where it belongs, because its fucking trash.
Stop taking so much copium, it doesnt change the fact lololol
Did you like WB's Flash movie? Did you like The Rock's Black Adam movie? Did you like WB's Birds of Prey movie, and what was good about all these WB DC movies? What are your thoughts and opinions about WB's Shazam Two? Truthfully, I think WB executes never wanted to create a DC shared universe and did so because of fan pressure. If you disagree, ask yourself how many WB movies about Bruce Wayne's origins were created compared to DC's Animal Man.
Agreed on some of your points. Overall, WB took a risk on handing the reigns over to Zack Snyder, and when that risk didn't pay out in the way they wanted, they were too slow to cut Snyder loose (OR they were contractually obligated to keep him on?). That, PLUS, they made mistake after mistake as they rushed to catch up with Marvel, rather than sit back and figure out how to properly fix the problem, and who could do the fixing. Hopefully, they have now done that. For your points that I'm not on board with 100%...
RE to Reason #1 ... I think MoS was a flawed foundation period... for both a solo-Superman franchise OR a shared universe. If anything, the darker tone of MoS made it so that it would fit more easily with other dark tone characters like Batman, as well as some of the brighter toned characters, like the Flash & Wonder Woman. Though in doing that, they created a bigger problem wherein the character wasn't in tune with a lot of people's ideas of who Superman was. And his character seemingly changed to fit every subsequent movie he was in. Sometimes they would treat him like the Reeve's version, and sometimes like the Snyder version. (And to anyone who says you can't have an old fashioned Superman, I point to Captain America. You can make Superman a bit more modern, and still keep the "aw shucks" of him that's part of his core. If Snyder wanted to make a cynical superhero, he should have done THE BOYS, INVINCIBLE, or IRREEDEMABLE instead).
RE to Reason #2 ... A lot of these "why DCEU failed" video essays tend to heavily forgive Snyder from his responsibility and put it mostly on the Studio. And the latter may be fair, given that Snyder is Snyder... they had ample evidence of his filmography as to what they could expect, so their fault for letting him run the show as long as he did. But you made a really good point about him being more of a niche artist with shortcomings w/r/t storytelling, and not hitting as many fans, but really getting the ones he does hit excited. Best essay explanation of Snyder I've seen so far.
RE to Reason #4 ... I don't disagree with your points RE the reactionary re-do of JL not being a great idea, HOWEVER, I think the Studio's mistake was allowing Snyder to handle JL in the first place, as if he was gonna magically make something that they WOULD be comfortable with, after he had already dropped the ball (in their eyes) on MoS or BvS. By that point, the Studio knew Snyder's style. Also, I honestly don't think the Whedon version of JL is any worse than MoS or BvS. I like Whedon's humor, and didn't mind its injection into Snyder's Shared GREY-verse. And the fact that it cut out a lot of Snyder's story is seemingly more of a studio call than a Whedon call. Whedon was hired to do a job, and he did it. (Though he seemingly could've been nicer).
RE to Reason #6 ... It's easy to infuriate fans... and bending over backwards to placate them can be a mixed bag. Sometimes you'll end up with a better looking Sonic the Hedgehog. Other times, you'll end up with JJ Abrams bending over backwards to make a horrible Episode 9 just to give people what they THINK they want. And sometimes, you may be listening to the LOUDEST fans, who may not represent ALL the fans. I don't know that I would hold THIS against WB.
RE to Reason #8 ... I don't see a problem with a shared universe that doesn't share much. In fact, I think one of the problems with MoS ais that it's trying TOO hard to be shareable by going with a darker tone. The MCU was able to fit a WW2 soldier, a rage monster, and a Norse God all in the same shared universe and make it more or less believable, and each of those individual origin movies had their own tones. Now, since then, these characters have changed a bit to better fit the shared universe... Steve Rogers is more cynical & worldly, Thor is a lot looser & vulnerable, etc., but these changes occurred AFTER their foundational films.
And one thing you may not have brought up, or maybe couched in one of your other reasons... issues with, and contradictions within, story & character development.
- WW84 ... Wonder Woman presumably takes herself out of action, only to have been active in the 80s? Plus everyone on the planet gets their wishes granted, and not one person wishes the world is full of monsters or vampires or that everyone else would be gone. Not ONE dark wish? It seems ONLY there just to bring back Steve.
- Suicide Squad ... they go on a mission that seems more fit for Justice League Dark. (They seemed to learn this lesson for the second movie though, where they initially think they only have to deal with a low level powered villain, rather than being sent from jump to deal with what will eventually turn out to be an OP super villain).
- Amazon attire... Snyder couldn't help creating inconsistencies in even the most basic things. Patty Jenkins' Amazons in Wonder Woman were dressed like warriors... in Snyder movies they were dressed like they were showing off cars at an autoshow.
- Superman ... sometimes he's Snyder's cynical version. Sometimes he acts, and is treated like, as if he was the Reeve's version. He was so involved with the destruction of Metropolis that Batman thought to kill him, yet he's lauded as a hero when he dies? Pick a lane! Also, he cry-screams when he breaks Zod's neck, but has no real feelings about the countless souls buried in Metropolis (all of which he should be able to hear), or even the other Kryptonians who also died that day.
- BvS / Death of Superman / Flashpoint ... These are stories that mainly work because they're brought in either after a given hero is already established, or near the end of a hero's career... not at the beginning. They were all forced in as the second movies of particular characters out of desperation, rather than allow the characters to be developed a little more individually first. And because of the lack of history that doesn't exist yet, they don't hit as well as they should have.
The DCEU has a lot of fun moments, but it's clear that the MCU had lighting in a bottle that the DCEU never had. Maybe James Gunn was able to snag that bottle from Feigi? We'll see, but I'm worried that we're starting with "creature commandos".
The suits who have zero imagination and creativity only thinking about money were trying to catch up with the MCU, trying to do carbon copies when they didn’t know the DC material being very different than Marvel. I loooove DC, huge huge fan. I liked most of the films with a couple of them being bad. But if they took their time, didn’t rush, and had faith in their directors and writers, they would’ve had a better outcome. Lesson? Don’t let the suits control in making the movies. Don’t meddle in ideas when your job is business, not art.
In my personal opinion, they botched the beginning of the franchise, which gave immediate signals to superhero and casual movie fans that this thing is not like the other (MCU).
You've touched perfectly on Snyder, being the wrong director to lead a franchise. His lead franchise characters were too bland and uninteresting compared to what the MCU gave you.
DC also didn't build properly into the events that took place in their movies. Having batman vs. Superman and Superman dying to then form the Justice League without establishing 3 of the actual members beforehand was moronic. The question would also be, why did we have a suicide squad movie if those guys played no part in the justice league. All their movies just had no rhyme or reason. Too much studio executive panic reactions to the MCU was the ultimate death of the DCEU.
I agree that the superhero bubble has popped. A few years ago I would have been ecstatic about Deadpool 3 but now I’m not certain I would go watch it at the theater. I know it will probably be great but the excitement isn’t there anymore.
Superman Legacy has to be phenomenal for the DCU to have any chance at succeeding.
Snyder should never have been hired from the beginning.
Honestly I think if Snyder did some of the films like some Batman films or heck some Superman films it would’ve been fine but having him do a 3 different films not from the same series kinda killed it
He was hired because he had experience with comic book movies. Same reason we got Josh Trank doing Fantastic Four, J. J. Abrams and Rian Johnson doing Star Wars, and Paul Feig doing Ghostbusters.
Snyder had an experience to adapt a superhero movie before which was Watchmen but it didn't work for Superman because Superman should be light hearted not being too grim and too dark. Would be better if he directed Batman movie because it will match to his directing style but Batman Nolan trilogy happened.
Their first mistake was trying to make Superman into Batman. Every time I watch Man of Steel, I keep thinking, this reminds me of Batman Begins. Also, Batman v Superman should have never happened. Everyone I knew that saw the trailer couldn't understand why they were fighting each other. I thought Wonder Woman was very good. I loved Shazam and Aquaman. Aquaman is my favorite DCEU movie and I'm going to go see Aquaman 2. The Flash surprised me.
Peacemaker was the best thing that came out of this mess (Honorable mention: Wonder Woman)
My DCEU Top 5 (haven't seen Man of Steel or Shazam 2):
1) The Suicide Squad (2021)
2) Birds of Prey
3) Blue Beetle
4) Shazam!
5) Wonder Woman
I approve, birds of prey is such an underrated movie.
Honestly one of the main reasons is the good versions of BvS and Justice League weren't released in theatres, so that ruined most people's impressions of the most important films in the franchise.
Huh!
Excellent video Sean, thanks!
Great breakdown Sean! I concur with everything you said about Man of Steel not really designed to jump start a cinematic universe and rushing everything. What a missed opportunity; hope James Gunn has a solid plan.
I agree. It sucks because like Sean I think several of the DCEU films are really good (with Wonder Woman and The Suicide Squad being 2 of my top 100 favorite movies of all time) but the cinematic universe as a whole was just terribly mismanaged.
If Superman is not a good character to "jump start" a DC cinematic universe, which other character is the correct person to start a DC cinematic universe? I'd vote for DC's Ted Kord (aka: Blue Beetle Two) in connection to his role during the comic book story about Omac.
Nobody will miss old DC EU that much anyway. Where we stand now is that we have a good batman in Robert Pattinson, good joker in Jacquin Phoenix and James Gunn working on a new superman movie. There's still hope and we can get what we want yet.
debatable
I think it was mainly the rushed build up for the justice league. I love Shazam and liked Man of Steel
Man I really love these kinds of love analytical videos, hope you do more!!!!
Great video. I agree with your reasons and I think your take makes a lot of sense and you have explained it very well. Honestly your video deserves more views. Thank you for sharing, I'm subscribing to your channel now because of this vid.
I appreciate that!
Thanks so much
Here’s reason 11: Recreating the same problems
I think Christopher Nolan could've made a good Superman movie that existed within his Dark Knight trilogy. He excelled with Batman. Just a thought.
Nolan was rubbish
Should’ve just let Snyder do his 5 films. If crashes, then it crashes. Everything else crashed anyways.
Great video. Good evaluation of DCEU.
You had people in DC who didn't know a Damn thing about DC!
Great video. I think superhero bubble hasn't popped yet, but close to it. Great video! Imo overall, i think reason why is because there's two different fandoms at war & WB/DC probly didnt know which route to go in and there's past reasons why and it all connects to Batman. How or Why i know that? Look to the past. Batman is only well-known Dark character in DC Comics thats bankable. Sure there's Entrigan The Demon, Azrael/ Batman aka Jean Paul Valley, Swampthing,Deadman,etc But alot of them are less likely to hold up on their own when many people do not know who they are unless they know their DC comics well. Back to subject, simply its because Snyder Fandom expect every single DC hero to be a carbon copy of Bale and/or Affleck's Batman. Dark, darker costumes, no humor in any DC film,etc. Not Dark enough, Not serious enough those Snyder Fans will yell. You might aswell say those fans expect R-rated DC Superman films, R rated WW films,etc showing lil nudity and more blood as seen in Heavy Metal Comics that Zack Snyder loves, not DC or Marvel's. Christopher Nolan never read a DC comic nor Batman comic before he was brought on to direct Batman Begins. Same with Tim Burton. Just a job to the latter two directors. Not insulting them here, stating actual facts. But mostly... Snyder Fandom expects Darker DC films all the time,regardless of the characters. They don't want Robin or the Bat-Family explored more in live action because what you see from them is " Batman won't be dark enough! Batman films will be bad again as Schumacher's was" They're dwell on bad things from past movies as lame excuses Not to do anything new in the DCU. They claimed they want Snyder to finish his two Justice League movies right, finish the story? IMO, if that's what they want, those movies can be streamed and/or released straight to home media format while Gunn's films will be seen in the theaters. But, Toxic Snyder Fans wont stop with Snyder's last two JL 2 & 3. They're gonna want more films directed by him , Nolan and cry to the heavens in boycotts till they do.
I’m very lukewarm on “Man of Steel” because it just got Superman wrong as a brooding and hesitant Superman. Also, it was so heavy handed with the destruction of Metropolis at the final battle, it was just really unpleasant to watch. Then comes Batman vs Superman, which was even darker, had more weak points in the plot (eg. “Save Martha”), and was also unpleasant to watch, just joyless. Finally, movies like “Flash”, which shouldn’t have been released because of the very problematic star, also shouldn’t have been released because the cheap special effects and cringy sequences that were just poor quality control, especially the first half of the movie.
"Brooding and hesitant Superman" That was the POINT of the movie. you introduce a character like that and have him DEVELOP AND CHOOSE TO BECOME the superman you know rather than being that way from the get go. NOT A SINGLE live action superman story delved too deep into Clark actually choosing to become the hero he is known to be
It’s simple: DC was just trying to copy from the MCU playbook. I don’t understand why people think DC is the “more serious and mature” franchise when these films exist. Seriously, WW84, BvS (yes, even the director cut), Suicide Squad 2016, and the recent DCEU movies this year are just not good. Funnily enough, the MCU started out strong but is now flopping hard, while the DCEU has a few good movies but is inconsistent, even from the beginning.
Thank you for taking the time to put this together, Sean. While I must admit I don't agree with a lot of the assertions, I do understand that this was an enterprise you cared a lot about and have thought about quite a bit. I think I come at these movies from a different perspective, so there were other reasons why I believe DCEU failed, but I wholly agree that WB was (and let's be honest, still is) far too reactionary, needed to plant the seeds, and then had to have the confidence to let what they planted grow. Or, if WB only speaks in financial advisor talk now, it needed to make the investment and then not hover over and tweak it at every turn. It sold when it needed to buy, and vice versa. On that point, I think you and I agree.
Well, personally, I never would have enjoyed this project, as I don't like Snyder's vision of the world, his aesthetic, or an angst-filled Superman. Oh, and I think Goyer is a hack. So none of this would ever have worked...for me.
Why it didn't work in general...the reasons you provided are as good as any.
They didn’t have a Feige… pretty simple
That’s not it. Look at what the mcu is now thanks to feige. Everything after endgame was mostly trash and utter garbage on par with the dceu
I think now that the DCEU is over that the pressure will be off. The franchise and in later years people will look back on the movies more fondly because there won't be the pressure from DC vs Marvel anymore by then.
You just spoke out of my mind. 100% agree
When I saw the lineup, I knew it was going to fail.
How can you make a Batman V Superman movie WITHOUT allowing people to be introduced to Batman? Then why make a Justice League movie with the introduction of just 3 characters? And then MAKE ANOTHER JUSTICE LEAGUE MOVIE WITH 2 MORE CHARACTERS!?!?!
Yeah i know plans have changed and all since the original plan debut but it was such a mess
Great video! Definitely recommend The Critical Drinker’s Production Hell video on the DCEU too, he does a great l breakdown of the mistakes that plagued the universe from beginning to end
The Critical Drinker and his subhuman incel cult has never done anything of value nor quality.
I think you said it all here, Sean lol
Too many visions that were presented and not chosen.
Zack Snyder is a visionary but as a story teller there’s some rough things there. Even with a cool Man of Steel and a surprisingly decent cut of Justice League after the mess that was BvS…I’m not sure he was the guy for a shared universe. He could have had a cool Man of Steel trilogy though.
What A Great Breakdown!!! 💯💯
Man of Steel is a good movie, I have it on DVD. But I kinda wish that movie was made into a solo Trilogy and introduced other villians like Brainiac and Metello. Even though I like Batman Vs Superman, I do feel Batman was introduced way too fast. If they had went the animated route and started with Batman first, then brought in Superman I think the DCEU would of had a better chance at success.
Yes. B v S came much too soon. They should have gone with an independent DCEU Batman movie (perhaps The Death of Robin). Would have set a much better stage for the eventual team up. Save the versus for after the friendship is established. It has no meaning if there is no prior relationship (unlike Civil War where your heart just aches when Tony says I was your friend too).
Batman would have been a better start to building a universe. But I can see why they would not since we had multiple versions of Batman over the last few decades. Kind of like how CW had Green Arrow -Batman clone to build their universe. Maybe start with Jim Gordon and Gotham police and mix in some superhero stuff from average Joe POV kind of like Marvels, the comic book mini series. Or even Detective Montoya and later the Question to introduce the superhero world.
So many options, but instead of building the universe, try telling a couple of good stories first.
No! If you listened carefully to what Sean Chandler said in this video, he clearly explained that the first DCEU movie Man of Steel doomed all attempts to setup a WB DC shared universe because the premise was that there are no gods or heroes a-part from Superman. Do you see a way WB's DCEU could have gotten pass Man of Steel's hindering premise?
@@brianng8350 , are you saying WB should have adopted CW DC characters by inserting them onto the "big screen" of movie theaters?
@@seanholmes7482 Not at all. I'm just saying there are alternative ways of starting a new movie universe for DC that does not start with Batman or Superman.
People are quick to blame Warnos Bros. And that's fair, they are the #1 reason the DCEU failed. But I think too many people are quick to defend and or ignore Zack Snyder's contribution. I think he fundamentally doesn't understand these characters, mainly Batman and Superman, and if you look at his career, he's yet to make a solid movie. Every movie he's made is either bad or at best good with a couple issues. His career is full of box office bombs, poor adaptations that are shunned by their OG creators and movies with average reviews. It's one thing to call him polarising, but at some point you just have to say he's a bad director. If a chef constantly makes food that the majority of people don't like, you say they're a bad chef. And the reaction to Rebel Moon is proof
I don't at all agree with this summary of Snyder's career. You're clearly not a fan. Which is totally fair. But you're ignoring all the people that DO love large amounts of his work. That's what polarizing means. That's what being niche means.
You don't judge a chef purely based off if they make broad appeal food for everyone. McDonalds isn't filled with great chefs because they're broad appeal.
And Snyder isn't a bad director because Watchmen and 300 aren't for everyone.
@SeanChandlerTalksAbout I do like some of his movies. I liked Dawn of the Dead, watchmen, aspects of Sucker Punch, Army of the Dead, his Justice League and aspects of Man of Steel. But if you look at them as a whole, taking away personal opinions, it's a string of poor box office results and mixed reviews. Romero didn't like Dawn of the Dead, Moore didn't like Watchmen. Sucker Punch got some comments for being kinda sexist, the failed Owls movie,
the known problems with the DCEU and his takes on Batman and Superman as charactes, and now these poor reviews from rebel moon. It's failure after failure and that's coming from someone who liked alot of those failures. Yes, I get he's polarising. But to be making movies for almost 20 years and still yet to have one that's universally praised is an issue. And tbh, when we say polarising, he isn't a rob zombie who makes movies for a very particular group of people. Snyder has attempted to make movies for a range of audiences and has constantly missed. But I respect that you disagree and that's fair. I love your videos. Keep up the good work
I wish you would've covered how making a 4hour movie was pretty ridiculous after Marvel made 22 movies to EARN a three hour movie to end it all
After years of the DCEU copying the MCU, now the MCU is copying the DCEUs mistakes
“Ironic, isn’t it?” - Palpatine
Now the dcu is king.. a good circle
And right now, since DCEU and MCU are dying (well DCEU is dead now), ironically, the only movie universe which still works right now is Monsterverse. Because unlike MCU and DCEU, the human characters on Monsterverse aren't too important as they keep changing actors every movies and people want to see Big Monsters fight.
@@margarethmichelina5146 I find it bizarre that out of the attempted cinematic universes made to ride off of and catch up to the MCU, only the Monsterverse is the ONLY one that’s succeeding.
@@hunterolaughlin Because every ending of Monsterverse is always vague. Either Godzilla and Kong always get their own happy endings so you confused either the sequel is gonna continue or not. Except for Kong: Skull Island and King of The Monsters, they clearly set up that these 2 big monsters are gonna meet someday and fight and it builds up to Godzilla vs Kong movie.
Also, after learning of how messed Batman v Superman was, they made Godzilla and Kong immediately fighting for the first 30 minutes on the movie while Batman and Superman took around almost 1 hour runtime to finally fight with so many people talking and walking. They also learn from the first 2 Godzilla movies for having so many humans with their stupid conflict and decision while Godzilla himself in 2014 movie lacked of screen time. While in Kong: Skull Island, the humans are also too many but they make it likeable especially John C. Reilly stole the screen time with his charisma and comedic timing.
Excellent video
Couldn’t have summed it up better myself.
Trying to do what it took Marvel 10 years in 18 months... Batman v Superman was the beginning of the end for the DCEU. Terrible
Really love these more long form style videos
My reasons for why the DCEU failed:
1. They were in a hurry; Instead of taking their time to set up all the characters before crossing them over, DC felt they were lagging behind Marvel so they rushed into the shared universe. Batman was “implied” to have gone over the edge after Robin was murdered but they didn’t bother giving us a solo film that shows him undergo this transformation and instead introduce him in Batman v Superman. Wonder Woman got her origin story film AFTER her first appearance in BvS. Aquaman got his AFTER Justice League. Cyborg and Flash? They weren’t even given origin story films and had to dedicate a chunk of the runtime of Zack Snyder’s Justice League to properly flesh them out.
2. They chose just one filmmaker to implement his vision for the universe; You can’t choose one director to do most of the different films in a franchise where there are so many different characters and teams. Zack Snyder did well with his cut of Justice League but he was not suited to do a film about Superman. Can you imagine if Sam Raimi did a Superman film, portraying him with the same hope and optimism as Tobey’s Spider-Man? Different characters are suited to different tones; don’t give all of them the same dark and dramatic feel.
3. The studio kept unnecessarily interfering; Batman v Superman was cut down, Suicide Squad was completely re-edited, re-written and re-shot, Justice League was completely ruined by hiring Whedon, who rewrote and filmed many pages of the script. What is the point of hiring directors if you’re not going to stand by them?
4. The studio lost their major talent; Ben Affleck got into alcoholism after all the troubles filming Justice League and decided he couldn’t play Batman anymore. They cut ties with Henry Cavill as Superman. They angered Ray Fisher.
5. They de-emphasised the shared nature of the universe; After everything, they decided to indefinitely delay the Justice League sequel and just do standalone films about the characters instead. There’s no more Batman or Superman anymore. There are no more team-up films. At that point, it’s not a cinematic universe.
DC IS A COMIC BOOK COMPANY!!!
They do not make movies
@@karimdavis7065 ?
Whether you like or dislike him, Zack Snyder was objectively the wrong person to start the DCEU. His plans for the DCEU would have basically ended the franchise after five films and would have left no room for anyone else to leave their vision on the franchise or to continue the story of the DCEU.
Kevin Fiege makes movies for everyone and looks for directors/writers that can make that happen.
Zack Snyder makes movies for himself and people that like his movies and absolutely no one else.
Because of that the DCEU never had a strong foundation to build upon and a house of cards was built on a broken table at the fastest speed possible. The failure of BvS sent WB into panic mode, destroyed Suicide Squad, and threw Justice League under the bus. From there, every mistake and overreaction would accumulate until it eventually collapsed and fell apart. Throw in a global pandemic, a series of bad actors and scandals, and AT&T selling DC to David Zaslav who proceeds to tear the whole franchise down; and that’s why the DCEU died.
In the end, every mistake can be traced back to the fatal decision to have Zack Snyder start the DCEU. Had they picked a more crowd pleasing director who made them a solid film to build the DCEU and they didn’t rush to BvS, then none of this would be happening.
Excellent Analysis
Batman V. Superman is what killed it. BvS had Avengers level hype going into it. It was the first time we got a live action meeting between Batman and Superman in a blockbuster film. But the film itself had a massive drop and failed to even break a billion. It did not live up to the hype, and it also killed Justice League.
Very well done, enjoyed your view ❤
WB's Biggest Failure Was Rushing Into A Justice League Movie With Most Of Their Characters Being Miss characterized And Still In The Middle Of Their Origin The Biggest Thing James Gunn's DCU Has Going For It That Most Of Their Heroes Have Gone Through Their Origins And Were Just Gonna Jump Into Stories They Also Put Like Three Of Their Biggest Storylines Into Batman V Superman And Failed
I think dc would have made so much money just by making good stand alone movies
They should have just hired James Wan at the first place.
If I were in charge of the DCEU, I would build it off of the Chrstifer Nolan Batman trilogy and use that as a foundation, and introduce Superman, Wonder Woman, etc., and eventually bring the Justice League together just like what Marvel did with the Avengers. There's a reason why they started with Iron Man, then Captain America, then Thor, and introduce all the other characters. Like it's not that hard. These characters just need good direction and a good amount of screen time so the audience can better connect with and care about them in a more interconnected and cohesive continuity and establish the world better and introduce iconic villains just like what Marvel did.
Nolan didn't want to allow it, the studio wanted too. It's amazing how Nolan is getting off scott free in all of this. He even had WB kill the Goerge Miller JL movie that was planned since like 2008.
Agreed! However, two issues remained a problem besides WB's unwillingness to create a DC shared universe. First, Brandon's Superman (2006) movie did not work with audiences, which followed after Bale's Batman (2005), and Ryan Reynold's Green Lantern (the original WB DC shared universe movie) didn't win over audiences. What WB DC character(s) should start Gunn's DCU now? I vote for DC's Ted Kord (aka: Blue Beetle Two) and that comic book Omac story.
@@_M.... justice league mortal exists as an audio drama in yt is realy great
@@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω good to know.