Pastor Joshua, absolutely stellar. Well done sir! I am hopeful others may see their way more clearly through your valuable teaching. May our Lord richly bless you.
I appreciate this video tremendously. I've been trying to cut through the thick weeds of modernity and get my head around the historical teachings of Eastern Orthodox on these key issues. This was incredibly helpful. God bless!
God bless you pastor! May the scales drop from the EO eyes so that they worship the true and living God! It is Christ alone who saves and He shares His glory with No one!!!
I really enjoy your videos regarding the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have been in the Eastern Orthodox Church for over 20 years and I have learned over time of the errors and additions in the church after I have done heavy research into its theology and teachings. I am grateful for your openness to the teachings of the Orthodox Church. I am now searching, with much prayer, for bible and Christ based church. I am very disillusioned by their teachings that are not biblical. I appreciate your insights.
It can be a very difficult journey, but God's grace will sustain you. I highly recommend looking into the Book of Concord. It is an excellent, Biblical Confession of faith, is filled with Patristic citations, and represents a conservative, liturgical approach to the Reformation.
I’m a Baptist believer coming from nominal Armenian Orthodox. Have you read about an Armenian 10th century monk called Gregory of Narek? He has a book called “Lamentation”. You can see that he believed in total depravity of man and salvation by grace through faith. A lot of Armenians see him as great saint but unfortunately don’t get what he’s saying.
Thank you for your ministry pastor Schooping. This was a devastating analysis in my opinion! I’m a former New Ager, and I have family members who’ve turned away from Hindu practices to Eastern Orthodoxy, so I was especially taken by your description of it as “mystical Christian yoga; sacramental yoga” (15:14-20). I’ve sensed the same thing and tried to gently warn them about the Galatian error, and to make sure that they’re working OUT their salvation rather than working FOR their salvation.
Thanks Pastor Schooping, you helped me to decide to remain Lutheran. Am going to throw out all my old books on Orthodoxy. I have agonized over what to do about converting. Thanks for having the courage to speak out the truth!
Pr. Schooping, I want to say as an ex-RC and current Anglican that your videos have strengthened my faith and my confidence in my Protestant tradition of faith. A lot of the past few years I’ve been plagued with doubts of my salvation because of what seemed like the an overwhelming body of evidence pointing towards RC/EO churches, having left Catholicism, and the desire to go east or back to Rome was strong with me for a season. Your perspective and your videos have been an immense blessing. I hope to purchase a copy of your book someday soon and will continue to revisit your channel. If there is any way I can support your ministry I would be honored to do so. Thank you again for all you do, and may Christ’s peace be with you!
Pastor Joshua, thank you very much for your excellent review of the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation. You should really write a booklet or pamphlet about this, since no one ever seems to address it! Yes, an Eastern Orthodox person is led to believe that as long as he keeps to Orthodoxy, that is, the Church's infallibly correct dogmas, eschews all heterodoxy (heresies), he is in the Ark of Salvation. As you said, that gives him the possibility of being saved eternally, while he is attending long, complex church services, keeping all the many fast days of the year (about 1/2), saying his prayers (again, all scripted, lengthy, but ancient!), taking Holy Communion, confessing to the priest, trying to do good works, etc, yes, 'through the intercessions of the Theotokos' and praying to have a good, blameless ending to his life (hopefully with the Last Rites & Viaticum), preferably on a major feast day or the Paschaltide (signs of God's favour). If he/she is a monastic, then all they have to do is 'remain in obedience' to their abbot/abbess/spiritual father/mother until their last breath. Then that person will 'answer for them at the judgement'. In this way, yes, one's salvation is not Christ. It is not 'tetelestai', a done deal. It is not eternally secure. It is based on the right information or by giving up one's life and submitting to another who will answer for one's sins at the judgement. Where then is Christ, and what did Christ's death on the Cross, as attested to over and again in the Epistles of Paul, accomplish? In spite of the 1,000s of Jesus Prayers one might say (esp. for monastics whose rule requires that daily), Jesus still remains somehow in history in the past, albeit in Heaven on the Throne in the present. He is an icon, a static 2-dimensional Divine Person. It is extremely hard to convey all this to anyone who has not lived through it, as you have. The idea of relationship rather than religion doesn't really exist. How can it with all the ritual and formalism? In fact, the idea of having some sort of personal relationship with Jesus is seen as almost blasphemous, too familiar and a deception (prelest, plani). It amazes me that with all the icons, feasts, church services, devotions, incredible celebration of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection, all these way beyond anything any heterodox Christians do or know, yet Jesus's death on the Cross and His Resurrection seem to have no real relation to our salvation, justification or sanctification! One can know the Gospels and Paul's Epistles in many languages, including the original Greek, and over decades of sermons, Patristic readings, Lives of Saints, never understand even the most rudimentary Gospel of Salvation. Then one hears a Baptist or Evangelical preacher teach on one or two verses from Scripture, interpreting Scripture with Scripture and be absolutely amazed at how he never before, as an Eastern Orthodox, had a clue of what it all meant! Wasn't it Theodore the Studite and maybe also Tikhon of Zadonsk who, given the complexity of Orthodox dogma, said: "Whatever the Orthodox Church believes, this I affirm seven times over; whatever the Church anathematizes, this, too, do I anathematize seven times over". In other words, just to be safe, one stays within the Orthodox Church, whatever it believes (only theologians can really understand it all) and that is one's assurance of possible salvation. Cyprian of Carthage's words: "Extra ecclesiam, nulla salvus" (Outside the Church there is no salvation) are, of course, given as the basis for that belief. Given the jurisdictional mess, however, of Eastern Orthodoxy, there is constantly the problem of whether one is, indeed, within the Orthodox Church, because his bishop may not have been properly ordained or is in schism from this or that synod, or his jurisdiction may participate in ecumenical functions, thus calling into question whether the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) are even valid within that diocese. In short, one's salvation depends on human beings, on canons, on so many aspects of one's life here and now. What Jesus did for us on the Cross so long ago really then doesn't even seem to take second place as for saving us. Does it even take any place at all in the Orthodox mind (phronima)?
I think your answer is excellent.I was in the E.O. for 30 years, having come out of the Reformed faith.I went through many dreadful years doubting my salvation because even if you appear to be in the Church by going to all the services, following the fasts(which few seem to do), taking communion, etc., you can never be certain, by any means, of doing enough. Actually,you can be certain of never doing enough.
I'm a former Catholic (and I went all the way to attending the Mass still done in Latin) but I really did consider converting to Orthodoxy back in 2013 when I started seeing the issues with the papacy and became a sort of orthobro in its embryonic form (never actually went through the process though since I ended up going back to Rome a year later and gave it another chance for another five years), many of the issues you and Gavin raise in the many videos I came across do apply to Latin Catholicism as well so I do appreciate your input as I'm starting to listen to the Protestant side of the argument that I was basically told to ignore for so long. My breaking point was reading the canons of the Council of Trent as I was given the impression very similar to Orthodoxy that the councils are basically infallible (especially if they have the anathema bit) and I simply couldn't agree with some of the stuff there so I basically became an unrepentant heretic and excommunicated myself, the one that really opened my eyes was Gavin's lecture on icons and how their veneration doesn't actually go back to apostolic times and this is something I feel lied to by the apologetics I listened to for so long.
God Bless you, may God lead you and make you strong in the relationship with HIm, base upon Apostolic Scripturess and prayer. Internal-contradictions in system of Romanism and the fact that Romanism contradicts his own councils is enough prove to rule out all his denominations. Amount of sect that are in Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy is tragedy; in Protestantism we are united together in diffrent streams and denminations base upon gospel when we hold to orthodoxy and conservatism, in Eastern Orthodoxy and Romanism every faction is a rival for one salvation contained in only one of those sects. Being polish - knowing well Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and how much denominations, sects, factions the have, and knowitg that only one of them can be saved in their world, make me sad, for Westerners who are lied to by Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics propagandits, how suposudlly Protestantism is without unity, and yet Protestantism is the only stream with unity among denominations; also, we have distiction on conservatiwe and liberal camps - so we can put liberals to one place and have nothing to do with them as un-christians, but in Romanism, they are in unity of faith with all kinds of heresies that are heresies even in their system of belive, and yet they are forced to remain in spiritual union with them, becasue they cannot leave Bishop of Rome and be independent from him without losing salvation - as Unam Sanctam clearly teaches about those who deny rule of the Bishop of Rome.
Sounds like you and I have had a similar experience. I became Catholic and was Catholicfor about five years, realized the problems with that, went to and Orthodox chuch for a bit, was a catechumen, but then realized a lot of issues there as well. Now that I've finally looked into classical Protestant beliefs I was shocked with how they were misrepresented by Catholics, and I was shocked honestly.
Wow this was amazing. The “sacramental yoga” thing was dead on!! I watched Matt Whitman’s video on Antiochian and Greek Orthodox churches a while back and I got some weird feelings from it with the prostrations, and how Salvation isn’t very clear, now it makes complete sense. God bless!!
Thank you so much for your information on EO. It really helped me to make my final decision, because I was seriously thinking about going to an EO church. I eyes have really been opened to the truth.
1 Corinthians 12:1-3 12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. So this I believe disproves the notion that other denominations are not Christians. No one can say Jesus is Lord unless Holy Spirit reveals it. Therefore I as a Protestant evangelical am a Christian.
Thank you for this helpful video. I was curious about the degree to which the Confession of Dositheus is considered binding by Orthodox Christians who visit my channel, so I conducted a poll. About 76 persons who said they are Orthodox Christians responded. 27% of them indicated that the Confession of Dositheus is binding, 55% said it is not binding, and 18% weren't sure. In an article entitled “What Makes an Orthodox Christian Orthodox?” by Fr. Michael Massouh, (The Word, Vol 67 No 1, Jan-Feb 2023, page 7), the author argued that a major difference between Western Christianity and Orthodoxy is that while Western Christians quantify the sacraments, the Orthodox do not. But since the Confession of Dositheus says that there are seven sacraments, I posted a poll to ask participants about this topic. About 75 persons who said they are Orthodox Christians expressed an opinion. 30% said they do, while 70% said they do not quantify the sacraments. I'd love to know if these results are the result of poor catechesis, or whether there simply isn't a consensus in the Orthodox Church regarding the status of the Synod of Jerusalem.
I can tell you from my experience of being someone who had converted in 2020 to EO and recently decided EO is not the true church. There is no formal catachesis in EO. Each parish priest handles it as he sees fit in accordance with His Bishop. When I was taking part in EO, it was explained to me that you spend the year ideally doing catachesis until Pascha. But I seen plenty like myself come into the EO before that. It's the priests discretion with approval from the Bishop. I was never told though from my knowledge about the council of Dositheus. That's something I looked up and found myself. I was told of the ecumenical councils recognized by EO. But yeah you'll find many don't known about the very traditional EO view of those outside of EO. Like the anathema service cursing Roman Catholics and Protestants. Many don't know that EO traditionally practiced no salvation outside of EO for a long time until recent century or two and even then you still get many who are raised or convert to EO who uphold that traditional view. But a large portion practice the view of Heterodoxy for Protestants outside of EO and are usually labeled by traditional EO as ecunimists. Many EO also say toll houses are heresy. Yet it's never been formally condemned and many traditional EO believe it as true based on early church fathers writings
Pastor Schooping, thankyou for your videos they have been very helpful and an important reminder of the simplicity and purity of the Gospel. I have a question as to whether you would recommend any works by Maximus the confessor for a Reformed reader? I was just curious about his use of logoi and it seemed quite insightful (e.g. for apologetics) but i haven't heard any protestant takes on him. Obviously no individual will be infallible and perfectly in alignment with others, but i was wondering whether you would encourage reading Maximus I definitely want to look into Bavinck as I noticed you mentioned him in one of your videos also! Thank you!
How does one discern theology, or correct interpretation of Scripture? Do we look to scholars that have done the most work? Should we follow a tradition that follows the New Testament word for word literally in all aspects? Who determines the nuance and interpretation? St. Justin Martyr said that the Liturgy is what seperates the heretics from the Church. And the Liturgy presupposes a priesthood.
We stand with the Fathers in upholding Sola Scriptura: Gregory of Nyssa, in “On the Soul”: “We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.” Basil the Great, in Letter 189.3: “Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth.” Basil the Great, in Letter 283: “Enjoying as you do the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you to comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right.” John Chrysostom, in 2 Corinthians Homily 13: “Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things.”
A lot of this stuff we converts needed to have heard prior to conversion. Christ is my hope and my only infallible guide. Your interview on Asceticism was very interesting indeed. Its a work, but not unto salvation.
This very topic has given me so much heart ache. Im Anglican, and admire their "middle way" approach to tradition. But hate how divided the church is. Ive heard orthodox say that even unbaptized babies go to hell. (If thats true then the human race needs to stop reproducing because we're bringing countless souls into the world only for their eternal existance will be one of torment and suffering with no hope.) Thankfully its God that ultimately judges and not the orthodox church
Romanists alco claim that unborn children are condemned to hellfire. Indeed, if it would be true, then it is absolutely immoral and impossible for us to procreate at all as whole human christian race, being aware that by such we can doom souls to hellfire without possibility to help them. For a adult person who is aleady alive - one can reason with it, and trying to convince to truth; but unborn will never have even chance to even self-realise of it's own egxistence. I reject such claim, that God codnemns unborn murdered by murderers to hellfire.
Do you have any thoughts on EO's views on predestination because they are very unliking of Calvinistic predestination. Are they more like molinism, arminiams, provisionism, something else??
Pastor Joshua, I am a Protestant, my son is amid the process of converting to Eastern Orthodox, so I am motivated to understand more. I intend to read Disillusioned, and also "A Basic Guide to Eastern Orthodox Theology" (Tibbs), which was recommended by Hank Hanegraaff along with reading the treatise by Mark the Ascetic "On Those Who Think They Have Been Made Righteous By Good Works". My question to you is: what do you think of those writings? Thanks for any response
Thanks for sharing! I personally do not recommend books like "A Basic Guide to Eastern Orthodox Theology," especially since she has developed her skills in conveying EO in the least offensive way to Protestants. In other words, she pulls punches in order to not make it seem as alien as it is. There isn't even a chapter on Mary, who Gregory Palamas taught ascended into heaven in order to bring Christ to earth. She also will not tell readers that the EO Church ritually anathematizes all non-EO Christians every year, and formally denies that anyone outside of EO is even a Christian at all. I think the text by Mark the Ascetic is fine, but it is somewhat of an aberration and has zero authority in terms of actually defining what EO believe about justification. One simply must go to the canons of the Church to discover what the EO actually formally professes. Otherwise one will find this or that Church Father being cited here when it conveniently works for them, and then denied there when it is inconvenient. It is a constant system of bait and switch, which again is why the formal texts of Councils are the only real and reliable source of information of what constitutes actual EO theology. For example, they officially pronounce and rule that if a person does not bow down to icons and kiss them with affection, then they are accursed to eternal hell. That is their official position, though "intro" books will typically not disclose that.
Pastor, thank you for this outstanding video. Can you tell us if your assesments of EOy applies to Antiochian Orthodoxy, particully the Gospel? Thank you
Hi Pastor Joshua, First, enjoyed your book and all the work you do defending the Word of God. Here's something I'd like your thoughts on. A few years ago I was listening to Ancient Faith Radio and I heard a priest say, "I'm not sure I'm going to heaven." Strange. Did I really hear that? Later I visited an EO church, and after the service the priest was nice enough to spend time with me to field a few questions. I pointedly asked him, "If you died right now, are you sure you will be with Christ in Heaven? He said no. I also asked that when he visits the dying members of his church are they fearful they won't make it. He affirmed this, and really had no words of comfort. Is this a common view of salvation among the Orthodox?
Sadly, yes, it is very common. They do not really have a doctrine of or belief in assurance, and typically discourage it, and sometimes even associate it with spiritual pride. One wonders what calling themselves Christian even means.
I wonder if you would be interested to look at the recent discussion of Gavin Ortlund of Truth Unites channel with Stephen De Young. Remarkably, De Young says that the whole church can get things wrong for short periods of time. Do you think that is a modernist deviation from traditional Eastern Orthodoxy's view of the Church as without error?
It is definitely modernism. As Decree 2 of the Council of Jerusalem 1672 declares: "it is impossible for her [the EO Church] to in any wise err, or to at all deceive, or be deceived." This Council was affirmed again as true EO doctrine at a later Council in Constantinople in 1691, and was everywhere received as authoritative by all jurisdictions, and has never been canonically called into question or doubted.
Thank you Pastor ! Is there anything wrong with the Jesus prayer that Orthodox tradition prescribes with prayer rope? As a Protestant it seems like a nice prayer and practice when we are lost for words. Also for spiritual reading, Would you recommend reading way of the pilgrim and Philomena
As long as the Jesus Prayer is not understood as if it were seeking to make God merciful, or as if it were wrestling mercy out of God. The proper approach to the Jesus Prayer is that of absolute trust in Word of Promise given in the Gospel that He in no wise casts away any who approach Him in faith, no matter how weak the faith or how great the sin. Rightly understood, we hand ourselves over to God in the Jesus Prayer, lay ourselves down, as if we were sick on our deathbed and Christ was (for He is) the Great Physician who wants and loves to have mercy on us and heal us.
The idea of such vast repetitions seems so impersonal and utterly counter to trusting Him in faith. The words seem good to say and move on to, actually trusting His promise to do it! rather than a vain repetition thing
One thing about the Eastern Orthodox Church is that I could never find anything in the Bible that explicitly would go against any of their teachings. However, I found that according to the Orthodox Church, bishops must be celibate. But 1 Timothy says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, and it happened the fifth century that they made this a thing. And in the next chapter it says that forbidding to marry in implicative of apostasy. I’m not saying they are all in all apostate but they want to talk about Protestants having bad theology when it seems that there’s no ambiguity in that text and they’re doctrine goes against the grain in that one.
There’s so much in the Bible that contradicts Eastern Orthodoxy. In regards to salvation the Orthodox Church is completely off from what the Bible says about us being justified through the propitiation of Christ
I was wondering your opinion about the biblical canon? The EO claims that because of them we have the Bible and that the council that was inspired by the Holy Sprit has the same truth . How should we see that topic?
Check the prior video where I discuss that issue. In essence, their position is an anachronism, for the Eastern Orthodox Church is a Middle Byzantine ecclesiological development that didn't become a unique, separate stream of Christianity until the 11th Century. Prior to that, they got the Scriptures the same way the West and the Oriental churches did: It was handed down to them according to reliable testimony.
If a man is a married prior to becoming a deacon or priest, then he may be ordained to the diaconate and priesthood as a married man. But no bishop may be married in the EO. Bishops must be unmarried and celibate.
None of this matters. The great advantage Orthodoxy has over protestantism is PRAXIS. The completely empty, spiritually devoid churches in america are not nourishing in any way. The hymns are corny, the sermons are trite, and the buildings are ugly. Orthodoxy offers regardless of theology a PRACTICE. American youth who lean religious want more than "go tell it on the mountain". They want to feel something. Reformers can't figure out that their insistence on logical theology is a self eating snake that leads to agnostic rational humanism and wonder why their churches are dying.
This is vauge. The problem is the word protestant. I'm LCMS. We're very liturgical. Idk what you mean by logical theology. There's always going to be logic in any theology. We certainly have a practice that is biblical and liturgical. We use the word mystery often and let the Word stand. We're sacramental more than anything.
in other words, orthodoxy offers worship of a religious institution with religious structure to feed peoples religious desire for religious ritual and practices. and this religious institution demonizes and anathematizes all who are outside of it. got it
Most Eastern Orthodox believers don’t even realize or understand these Canons and ecumenical teachings and letters. Many I know only hear of the generic ecumenical council commemoration. They only know of the basics in a nut shell, but not in detail as you expound upon in your explanations. Many also have grown up in the church and are unaware of a lot of canons and councils. There is more but I will just mention these few.
Why do so many make the Gospel so complex? - the modern EO teachers sound so very profound and holy and make one feel inadequate. There seems to be a great pretense of holiness and an assumption that the only true church is EO. And why are Christians so very argumentative?
Pastor Joshua, absolutely stellar. Well done sir! I am hopeful others may see their way more clearly through your valuable teaching. May our Lord richly bless you.
Thank you kindly!
@@pastorjoshuaschooping4702so clear. Thank you.
I appreciate this video tremendously. I've been trying to cut through the thick weeds of modernity and get my head around the historical teachings of Eastern Orthodox on these key issues. This was incredibly helpful. God bless!
God bless you pastor! May the scales drop from the EO eyes so that they worship the true and living God! It is Christ alone who saves and He shares His glory with No one!!!
I really enjoy your videos regarding the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have been in the Eastern Orthodox Church for over 20 years and I have learned over time of the errors and additions in the church after I have done heavy research into its theology and teachings. I am grateful for your openness to the teachings of the Orthodox Church. I am now searching, with much prayer, for bible and Christ based church. I am very disillusioned by their teachings that are not biblical. I appreciate your insights.
It can be a very difficult journey, but God's grace will sustain you. I highly recommend looking into the Book of Concord. It is an excellent, Biblical Confession of faith, is filled with Patristic citations, and represents a conservative, liturgical approach to the Reformation.
Praise God. I’ve been sharing the truth of Orthodoxy to my family. It’s very difficult to do because they are so stuck in tradition.
I’m a Baptist believer coming from nominal Armenian Orthodox.
Have you read about an Armenian 10th century monk called Gregory of Narek? He has a book called “Lamentation”.
You can see that he believed in total depravity of man and salvation by grace through faith.
A lot of Armenians see him as great saint but unfortunately don’t get what he’s saying.
Thank you! I have been searching for this very information for some time.
Shots fired!
Great stuff pastor. I've been struggling with Orthodoxy and biblical hermeneutics for the past 2 years.
Thank you for your ministry pastor Schooping. This was a devastating analysis in my opinion! I’m a former New Ager, and I have family members who’ve turned away from Hindu practices to Eastern Orthodoxy, so I was especially taken by your description of it as “mystical Christian yoga; sacramental yoga” (15:14-20). I’ve sensed the same thing and tried to gently warn them about the Galatian error, and to make sure that they’re working OUT their salvation rather than working FOR their salvation.
Thanks Pastor Schooping, you helped me to decide to remain Lutheran. Am going to throw out all my old books on Orthodoxy. I have agonized over what to do about converting. Thanks for having the courage to speak out the truth!
Pr. Schooping, I want to say as an ex-RC and current Anglican that your videos have strengthened my faith and my confidence in my Protestant tradition of faith. A lot of the past few years I’ve been plagued with doubts of my salvation because of what seemed like the an overwhelming body of evidence pointing towards RC/EO churches, having left Catholicism, and the desire to go east or back to Rome was strong with me for a season. Your perspective and your videos have been an immense blessing. I hope to purchase a copy of your book someday soon and will continue to revisit your channel. If there is any way I can support your ministry I would be honored to do so. Thank you again for all you do, and may Christ’s peace be with you!
Pastor Joshua, thank you very much for your excellent review of the Eastern Orthodox understanding of salvation. You should really write a booklet or pamphlet about this, since no one ever seems to address it!
Yes, an Eastern Orthodox person is led to believe that as long as he keeps to Orthodoxy, that is, the Church's infallibly correct dogmas, eschews all heterodoxy (heresies), he is in the Ark of Salvation. As you said, that gives him the possibility of being saved eternally, while he is attending long, complex church services, keeping all the many fast days of the year (about 1/2), saying his prayers (again, all scripted, lengthy, but ancient!), taking Holy Communion, confessing to the priest, trying to do good works, etc, yes, 'through the intercessions of the Theotokos' and praying to have a good, blameless ending to his life (hopefully with the Last Rites & Viaticum), preferably on a major feast day or the Paschaltide (signs of God's favour). If he/she is a monastic, then all they have to do is 'remain in obedience' to their abbot/abbess/spiritual father/mother until their last breath. Then that person will 'answer for them at the judgement'.
In this way, yes, one's salvation is not Christ. It is not 'tetelestai', a done deal. It is not eternally secure. It is based on the right information or by giving up one's life and submitting to another who will answer for one's sins at the judgement. Where then is Christ, and what did Christ's death on the Cross, as attested to over and again in the Epistles of Paul, accomplish?
In spite of the 1,000s of Jesus Prayers one might say (esp. for monastics whose rule requires that daily), Jesus still remains somehow in history in the past, albeit in Heaven on the Throne in the present. He is an icon, a static 2-dimensional Divine Person. It is extremely hard to convey all this to anyone who has not lived through it, as you have. The idea of relationship rather than religion doesn't really exist. How can it with all the ritual and formalism? In fact, the idea of having some sort of personal relationship with Jesus is seen as almost blasphemous, too familiar and a deception (prelest, plani).
It amazes me that with all the icons, feasts, church services, devotions, incredible celebration of Pascha, the Lord's Resurrection, all these way beyond anything any heterodox Christians do or know, yet Jesus's death on the Cross and His Resurrection seem to have no real relation to our salvation, justification or sanctification! One can know the Gospels and Paul's Epistles in many languages, including the original Greek, and over decades of sermons, Patristic readings, Lives of Saints, never understand even the most rudimentary Gospel of Salvation. Then one hears a Baptist or Evangelical preacher teach on one or two verses from Scripture, interpreting Scripture with Scripture and be absolutely amazed at how he never before, as an Eastern Orthodox, had a clue of what it all meant!
Wasn't it Theodore the Studite and maybe also Tikhon of Zadonsk who, given the complexity of Orthodox dogma, said: "Whatever the Orthodox Church believes, this I affirm seven times over; whatever the Church anathematizes, this, too, do I anathematize seven times over". In other words, just to be safe, one stays within the Orthodox Church, whatever it believes (only theologians can really understand it all) and that is one's assurance of possible salvation. Cyprian of Carthage's words: "Extra ecclesiam, nulla salvus" (Outside the Church there is no salvation) are, of course, given as the basis for that belief.
Given the jurisdictional mess, however, of Eastern Orthodoxy, there is constantly the problem of whether one is, indeed, within the Orthodox Church, because his bishop may not have been properly ordained or is in schism from this or that synod, or his jurisdiction may participate in ecumenical functions, thus calling into question whether the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) are even valid within that diocese. In short, one's salvation depends on human beings, on canons, on so many aspects of one's life here and now. What Jesus did for us on the Cross so long ago really then doesn't even seem to take second place as for saving us. Does it even take any place at all in the Orthodox mind (phronima)?
I think your answer is excellent.I was in the E.O. for 30 years, having come out of the Reformed faith.I went through many dreadful years doubting my salvation because even if you appear to be in the Church by going to all the services, following the fasts(which few seem to do), taking communion, etc., you can never be certain, by any means, of doing enough. Actually,you can be certain of never doing enough.
I'm a former Catholic (and I went all the way to attending the Mass still done in Latin) but I really did consider converting to Orthodoxy back in 2013 when I started seeing the issues with the papacy and became a sort of orthobro in its embryonic form (never actually went through the process though since I ended up going back to Rome a year later and gave it another chance for another five years), many of the issues you and Gavin raise in the many videos I came across do apply to Latin Catholicism as well so I do appreciate your input as I'm starting to listen to the Protestant side of the argument that I was basically told to ignore for so long.
My breaking point was reading the canons of the Council of Trent as I was given the impression very similar to Orthodoxy that the councils are basically infallible (especially if they have the anathema bit) and I simply couldn't agree with some of the stuff there so I basically became an unrepentant heretic and excommunicated myself, the one that really opened my eyes was Gavin's lecture on icons and how their veneration doesn't actually go back to apostolic times and this is something I feel lied to by the apologetics I listened to for so long.
God Bless you, may God lead you and make you strong in the relationship with HIm, base upon Apostolic Scripturess and prayer.
Internal-contradictions in system of Romanism and the fact that Romanism contradicts his own councils is enough prove to rule out all his denominations. Amount of sect that are in Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy is tragedy; in Protestantism we are united together in diffrent streams and denminations base upon gospel when we hold to orthodoxy and conservatism, in Eastern Orthodoxy and Romanism every faction is a rival for one salvation contained in only one of those sects.
Being polish - knowing well Romanism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and how much denominations, sects, factions the have, and knowitg that only one of them can be saved in their world, make me sad, for Westerners who are lied to by Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics propagandits, how suposudlly Protestantism is without unity, and yet Protestantism is the only stream with unity among denominations; also, we have distiction on conservatiwe and liberal camps - so we can put liberals to one place and have nothing to do with them as un-christians, but in Romanism, they are in unity of faith with all kinds of heresies that are heresies even in their system of belive, and yet they are forced to remain in spiritual union with them, becasue they cannot leave Bishop of Rome and be independent from him without losing salvation - as Unam Sanctam clearly teaches about those who deny rule of the Bishop of Rome.
Sounds like you and I have had a similar experience. I became Catholic and was Catholicfor about five years, realized the problems with that, went to and Orthodox chuch for a bit, was a catechumen, but then realized a lot of issues there as well. Now that I've finally looked into classical Protestant beliefs I was shocked with how they were misrepresented by Catholics, and I was shocked honestly.
Wow this was amazing. The “sacramental yoga” thing was dead on!! I watched Matt Whitman’s video on Antiochian and Greek Orthodox churches a while back and I got some weird feelings from it with the prostrations, and how Salvation isn’t very clear, now it makes complete sense. God bless!!
yup bc of their heavy mysticism
Another excellent video! Thanks for this Pastor Joshua. Keep them coming
Thank you so much for your information on EO. It really helped me to make my final decision, because I was seriously thinking about going to an EO church. I eyes have really been opened to the truth.
1 Corinthians 12:1-3
12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
So this I believe disproves the notion that other denominations are not Christians. No one can say Jesus is Lord unless Holy Spirit reveals it. Therefore I as a Protestant evangelical am a Christian.
Thank you for this helpful video. I was curious about the degree to which the Confession of Dositheus is considered binding by Orthodox Christians who visit my channel, so I conducted a poll. About 76 persons who said they are Orthodox Christians responded. 27% of them indicated that the Confession of Dositheus is binding, 55% said it is not binding, and 18% weren't sure.
In an article entitled “What Makes an Orthodox Christian Orthodox?” by Fr. Michael Massouh, (The Word, Vol 67 No 1, Jan-Feb 2023, page 7), the author argued that a major difference between Western Christianity and Orthodoxy is that while Western Christians quantify the sacraments, the Orthodox do not. But since the Confession of Dositheus says that there are seven sacraments, I posted a poll to ask participants about this topic. About 75 persons who said they are Orthodox Christians expressed an opinion. 30% said they do, while 70% said they do not quantify the sacraments.
I'd love to know if these results are the result of poor catechesis, or whether there simply isn't a consensus in the Orthodox Church regarding the status of the Synod of Jerusalem.
I can tell you from my experience of being someone who had converted in 2020 to EO and recently decided EO is not the true church. There is no formal catachesis in EO. Each parish priest handles it as he sees fit in accordance with His Bishop. When I was taking part in EO, it was explained to me that you spend the year ideally doing catachesis until Pascha. But I seen plenty like myself come into the EO before that. It's the priests discretion with approval from the Bishop.
I was never told though from my knowledge about the council of Dositheus. That's something I looked up and found myself. I was told of the ecumenical councils recognized by EO. But yeah you'll find many don't known about the very traditional EO view of those outside of EO. Like the anathema service cursing Roman Catholics and Protestants. Many don't know that EO traditionally practiced no salvation outside of EO for a long time until recent century or two and even then you still get many who are raised or convert to EO who uphold that traditional view.
But a large portion practice the view of Heterodoxy for Protestants outside of EO and are usually labeled by traditional EO as ecunimists. Many EO also say toll houses are heresy. Yet it's never been formally condemned and many traditional EO believe it as true based on early church fathers writings
Pastor Schooping, thankyou for your videos they have been very helpful and an important reminder of the simplicity and purity of the Gospel.
I have a question as to whether you would recommend any works by Maximus the confessor for a Reformed reader? I was just curious about his use of logoi and it seemed quite insightful (e.g. for apologetics) but i haven't heard any protestant takes on him.
Obviously no individual will be infallible and perfectly in alignment with others, but i was wondering whether you would encourage reading Maximus
I definitely want to look into Bavinck as I noticed you mentioned him in one of your videos also!
Thank you!
How does one discern theology, or correct interpretation of Scripture? Do we look to scholars that have done the most work? Should we follow a tradition that follows the New Testament word for word literally in all aspects? Who determines the nuance and interpretation? St. Justin Martyr said that the Liturgy is what seperates the heretics from the Church. And the Liturgy presupposes a priesthood.
We stand with the Fathers in upholding Sola Scriptura:
Gregory of Nyssa, in “On the Soul”: “We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.”
Basil the Great, in Letter 189.3: “Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the word of God, in favour of that side will be cast the vote of truth.”
Basil the Great, in Letter 283: “Enjoying as you do the consolation of the Holy Scriptures, you stand in need neither of my assistance nor of that of anybody else to help you to comprehend your duty. You have the all-sufficient counsel and guidance of the Holy Spirit to lead you to what is right.”
John Chrysostom, in 2 Corinthians Homily 13: “Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things.”
Bro….. so good! Praise be to God!
A lot of this stuff we converts needed to have heard prior to conversion. Christ is my hope and my only infallible guide. Your interview on Asceticism was very interesting indeed. Its a work, but not unto salvation.
Pastor Joshua, is there a printable version of the text of this? Thanks!
Thanks for your work. Jesus is Lord!
Instead of good news, forgiveness and salvation, they offer probational community service.
This very topic has given me so much heart ache. Im Anglican, and admire their "middle way" approach to tradition. But hate how divided the church is. Ive heard orthodox say that even unbaptized babies go to hell. (If thats true then the human race needs to stop reproducing because we're bringing countless souls into the world only for their eternal existance will be one of torment and suffering with no hope.) Thankfully its God that ultimately judges and not the orthodox church
Romanists alco claim that unborn children are condemned to hellfire.
Indeed, if it would be true, then it is absolutely immoral and impossible for us to procreate at all as whole human christian race, being aware that by such we can doom souls to hellfire without possibility to help them.
For a adult person who is aleady alive - one can reason with it, and trying to convince to truth; but unborn will never have even chance to even self-realise of it's own egxistence.
I reject such claim, that God codnemns unborn murdered by murderers to hellfire.
Awesome video, brother
Do you have any thoughts on EO's views on predestination because they are very unliking of Calvinistic predestination.
Are they more like molinism, arminiams, provisionism, something else??
So helpful!
Amen. Justification by grace through faith in Christ alone.
God Bless
Another great presentation. Keep up the good work. Do more if you can.
Pastor Joshua, I am a Protestant, my son is amid the process of converting to Eastern Orthodox, so I am motivated to understand more. I intend to read Disillusioned, and also "A Basic Guide to Eastern Orthodox Theology" (Tibbs), which was recommended by Hank Hanegraaff along with reading the treatise by Mark the Ascetic "On Those Who Think They Have Been Made Righteous By Good Works". My question to you is: what do you think of those writings? Thanks for any response
Thanks for sharing! I personally do not recommend books like "A Basic Guide to Eastern Orthodox Theology," especially since she has developed her skills in conveying EO in the least offensive way to Protestants. In other words, she pulls punches in order to not make it seem as alien as it is. There isn't even a chapter on Mary, who Gregory Palamas taught ascended into heaven in order to bring Christ to earth. She also will not tell readers that the EO Church ritually anathematizes all non-EO Christians every year, and formally denies that anyone outside of EO is even a Christian at all.
I think the text by Mark the Ascetic is fine, but it is somewhat of an aberration and has zero authority in terms of actually defining what EO believe about justification. One simply must go to the canons of the Church to discover what the EO actually formally professes. Otherwise one will find this or that Church Father being cited here when it conveniently works for them, and then denied there when it is inconvenient. It is a constant system of bait and switch, which again is why the formal texts of Councils are the only real and reliable source of information of what constitutes actual EO theology. For example, they officially pronounce and rule that if a person does not bow down to icons and kiss them with affection, then they are accursed to eternal hell. That is their official position, though "intro" books will typically not disclose that.
@@pastorjoshuaschooping4702 thanks so much for your thoughtful and helpful reply
Pastor, thank you for this outstanding video. Can you tell us if your assesments of EOy applies to Antiochian Orthodoxy, particully the Gospel? Thank you
A correlate of this is that Evangelicals in Russia are persecuted.
Hi Pastor Joshua,
First, enjoyed your book and all the work you do defending the Word of God.
Here's something I'd like your thoughts on. A few years ago I was listening to Ancient Faith Radio and I heard a priest say, "I'm not sure I'm going to heaven." Strange. Did I really hear that?
Later I visited an EO church, and after the service the priest was nice enough to spend time with me to field a few questions. I pointedly asked him, "If you died right now, are you sure you will be with Christ in Heaven? He said no. I also asked that when he visits the dying members of his church are they fearful they won't make it. He affirmed this, and really had no words of comfort.
Is this a common view of salvation among the Orthodox?
Sadly, yes, it is very common. They do not really have a doctrine of or belief in assurance, and typically discourage it, and sometimes even associate it with spiritual pride. One wonders what calling themselves Christian even means.
@@pastorjoshuaschooping4702this has also been a shocker for me
I wonder if you would be interested to look at the recent discussion of Gavin Ortlund of Truth Unites channel with Stephen De Young. Remarkably, De Young says that the whole church can get things wrong for short periods of time. Do you think that is a modernist deviation from traditional Eastern Orthodoxy's view of the Church as without error?
It is definitely modernism. As Decree 2 of the Council of Jerusalem 1672 declares: "it is impossible for her [the EO Church] to in any wise err, or to at all deceive, or be deceived."
This Council was affirmed again as true EO doctrine at a later Council in Constantinople in 1691, and was everywhere received as authoritative by all jurisdictions, and has never been canonically called into question or doubted.
Do you think all this is the reason that the Eastern Orthodox Church has practically no social conscience?
Thanks, Brother.
Thank you Pastor ! Is there anything wrong with the Jesus prayer that Orthodox tradition prescribes with prayer rope? As a Protestant it seems like a nice prayer and practice when we are lost for words. Also for spiritual reading, Would you recommend reading way of the pilgrim and Philomena
As long as the Jesus Prayer is not understood as if it were seeking to make God merciful, or as if it were wrestling mercy out of God. The proper approach to the Jesus Prayer is that of absolute trust in Word of Promise given in the Gospel that He in no wise casts away any who approach Him in faith, no matter how weak the faith or how great the sin. Rightly understood, we hand ourselves over to God in the Jesus Prayer, lay ourselves down, as if we were sick on our deathbed and Christ was (for He is) the Great Physician who wants and loves to have mercy on us and heal us.
The idea of such vast repetitions seems so impersonal and utterly counter to trusting Him in faith. The words seem good to say and move on to, actually trusting His promise to do it! rather than a vain repetition thing
One thing about the Eastern Orthodox Church is that I could never find anything in the Bible that explicitly would go against any of their teachings. However, I found that according to the Orthodox Church, bishops must be celibate. But 1 Timothy says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, and it happened the fifth century that they made this a thing. And in the next chapter it says that forbidding to marry in implicative of apostasy. I’m not saying they are all in all apostate but they want to talk about Protestants having bad theology when it seems that there’s no ambiguity in that text and they’re doctrine goes against the grain in that one.
There’s so much in the Bible that contradicts Eastern Orthodoxy. In regards to salvation the Orthodox Church is completely off from what the Bible says about us being justified through the propitiation of Christ
Thank you for your thoughts on Theosis. I would like to hear you comment on how Methodism appropriates Theosis in Wesleyan entire sanctification.
I was wondering your opinion about the biblical canon? The EO claims that because of them we have the Bible and that the council that was inspired by the Holy Sprit has the same truth . How should we see that topic?
Check the prior video where I discuss that issue. In essence, their position is an anachronism, for the Eastern Orthodox Church is a Middle Byzantine ecclesiological development that didn't become a unique, separate stream of Christianity until the 11th Century. Prior to that, they got the Scriptures the same way the West and the Oriental churches did: It was handed down to them according to reliable testimony.
@@pastorjoshuaschooping4702the historic reformed doctrine of union video or the sola scriptura video? Thanks 😊
Alos check out Dr Michael Kruger from Reformed theological seminary. H has written several solid books on the Canon
What are your thoughts on Calvinism?
In my opinion, Confessional Reformed Christianity is an orthodox form of Christianity.
It seems like people of Orthodox authority always have a way to wiggle out of what you are teaching here. It is very discouraging.
Just for curiosity, was it written in eclesiastical greek?
Schaff's edition gives it in the original Greek and Latin side by side.
@@pastorjoshuaschooping4702 oh! Latin too
Im protestant and I believe that we are saved by both imputed and infused righteousness. Both being granted immediately by grace through faith.
Bishops Can be married in the EO, yet, be married already before becoming one.
If a man is a married prior to becoming a deacon or priest, then he may be ordained to the diaconate and priesthood as a married man. But no bishop may be married in the EO. Bishops must be unmarried and celibate.
None of this matters. The great advantage Orthodoxy has over protestantism is PRAXIS. The completely empty, spiritually devoid churches in america are not nourishing in any way. The hymns are corny, the sermons are trite, and the buildings are ugly. Orthodoxy offers regardless of theology a PRACTICE. American youth who lean religious want more than "go tell it on the mountain". They want to feel something. Reformers can't figure out that their insistence on logical theology is a self eating snake that leads to agnostic rational humanism and wonder why their churches are dying.
This is vauge. The problem is the word protestant. I'm LCMS. We're very liturgical. Idk what you mean by logical theology. There's always going to be logic in any theology.
We certainly have a practice that is biblical and liturgical. We use the word mystery often and let the Word stand. We're sacramental more than anything.
in other words, orthodoxy offers worship of a religious institution with religious structure to feed peoples religious desire for religious ritual and practices. and this religious institution demonizes and anathematizes all who are outside of it. got it
Most Eastern Orthodox believers don’t even realize or understand these Canons and ecumenical teachings and letters. Many I know only hear of the generic ecumenical council commemoration. They only know of the basics in a nut shell, but not in detail as you expound upon in your explanations. Many also have grown up in the church and are unaware of a lot of canons and councils. There is more but I will just mention these few.
Please do a posting on the pernicious, neurotic, anti intelectual, anti spiritual and just plane nutty Ariel Toll House cult.
Why do so many make the Gospel so complex? - the modern EO teachers sound so very profound and holy and make one feel inadequate. There seems to be a great pretense of holiness and an assumption that the only true church is EO. And why are Christians so very argumentative?
My question is who are the ones who make these decisions accountable too?
Sounds xactly like Mormonism
Great video brother.