In Spain XVIII century, Clavicordio is the word for plucked keyboard instrument, so the harpsichord and spinet. The Clavichord is always called Monocordio. So, if this sonatas was written or published in the Spanish Court period, it is intended for the harpsichord. Also, the fast repeated notes is very difficult to play in the type of clavichords in Spain at that time. Setting this a part, it’s great to hear it in the clavichord and with such a great performance!
Considering that the clavichord was (according to my understanding) Bach's primary personal instrument, IMO it is certainly not too far-fetched to believe that Scarlatti (an almost exact contemporary of Bach) may have composed some of his keyboard sonatas for the clavichord.
Interesting comments. I think, as you, that it is important to show the 3/8 in the beginning and not play them as triplets. One needs a good fingering to do this. The clavichord gives a very good texture to the music and everything becomes very transparent. Your clavichord is really in good condition.
As a facebook's friend of mine asked me to find him (or even play for him) Scarlatti's K383 L19 in f minor, I've search 1st of all at your youtube chan. and came to this wonderful explanation of your interpretation. I do not know yet if you have more by him, but this one and the previous upload with the whole performance of this sonata is really great. Thanks. I'll share it with him.
Wim, Jean Rondeau, and Martha Argerich are right together on youtube so I could flip back and forth.The clavichord is slower but gives you more time to think about the different voices. I don't know but it's a hell of a lot more interesting.
@@charlesross9260 In Ms. Argerich's defense, the TH-cam video that Wim referred to was an encore, which is calculated to "Wow" the audience. The thing that many people remember most when leaving the concert hall is the encore(s). Let us never forget, folks, that whatever learned observations may be made about Classical Music, it is still Show Business - as Mozart, Liszt, Horowitz et al. knew, and which contemporary performers such as Yuja Wang are keenly aware of.
@@excelsior999 Anything Martha Argerich plays is Wow. It's more personal taste but I grew up with Fitzpatrick's Scarlatti and it just doesn't sound right on the piano. The few times I was lucky enough to hear Ms. Argerich in concert the audience kept calling her back for more. A genius, an artist, and a babe. What more do you want? Thanks for your comment. Regards.
I feel always delighted when I watch your video Wim...Recently I heard recording of Emil Gilels,who played exact in slower tempo in order to feel three eight rhythm...I must have impression that eight notes speaks to eachother...
It works really well indeed, much better than French music on clavichord . We don't know really how the clavichord was present in Southern Europe, many German builders transported clavichords to there.
@@AuthenticSound Italy supplied a number of the instruments to the aristocracy in the Iberian peninsula from. The King of Portugal (the father of Scarlatti's patron, the future queen Barbara) owned a clavichord, however most likely the either a 4 octave or short octave instrument popular in Italy. One wonders if the native Spanish clavichords, were no different from the type Peter Bavington discovered in South America, Compass: C/E-c3, with 'short octave' in the bass. The majority of the fortepianos came from Cristofori and some and later his student who succeeded him. These instruments were GG-d''' and several were converted into harpsichords as recorded in the inventory of Queen Barbara's instrument she had or inherited. About 20-30 (the number is debated) Iberian Monochordios (the Spanish name for clavichord) survive. One dated from 1750-1775 is 53 notes C to e''' the same range as recommended by C P E Bach as the minimum requirement in his Versuch. Unfortunately, if the date is the early 1750, the range of many of the Sonatas written by Scarlatti exceed this range FF-g''' The Harpsichords (known as clavichordios in 18th century Spanish language) have various ranges provided by the court builder used the same range as the fortepianos, and then there's, Francisco Perez Mirabal, the court builder who submitted a bill for two 5 octave harpsichords in 1757. D. Scarlatti owned a harpsichord by Francisco Perez Mirabal, too. An English Double Manual FF-f'''' was the wonder of Madrid (Scarlatti wrote in this range) as well some undated later Italian Harpsichords 18th century which had FF,GG-g³ GG-g³ (the Roberto and Frederigo Cresci, Livorno with the compass FF,-f³ arrives too late, dated 1778). Interestingly, six 17th century harpsichords were discovered, of these the majority were unaligned double manual instruments, previously only known from Ruckers with the approximately the same compass. (Iberian Discoveries: Six Spanish 17th-Century Harpsichords Andreas E. Beurmann. 1999). I do believe the clavichord does justice to the Sonatas. Of course there's that unfortunate fact, of the title page to the London publication of Scarlatti's Sonatas list the work for the Harpsichord. Of course this may have been a shrewd Scarlatti as the Clavichord was never popular in England. The Clavichord occupied the domestic instrument in the Iberian Penninsula. SEBASTIAN ALBERO (1722-1756) was first organist of the Royal Chapel, Madrid, 1748-1756 and thus in the same sphere as Scarlatti. He wrote "30 Sonatas for the clavichord," published in 1978, but is this modern use of clavichord or a mistranslated 18th century term into English (harpsichord)? I haven't seen the publication or the manuscript, the article I found the reference sources from a pianist who was "mining" the harpsichord and organ traditions of Spain and Portugal. (The Iberian Peninsula Organs had minimal if not completely absent pedal sections). For those interest, in this tradition, the link is www.suttonelms.org.uk/MUSIC2.HTML I am a fan of the organ works Juan Bautista José Cabanilles th-cam.com/video/hP1D-l3ngwQ/w-d-xo.html The Spanish organs were known for the reed stops, which influenced French 19th Organs (and organs built in South America) as the builder Aristide Cavaillé-Coll repaired and work on many Spanish organs earlier in career. Antonio Soler Fanfare (as played by E Power Biggs) is also quite fantastic. (Yes, I know it's an acquired taste). To tie this in with Scarlatti, I can think of two of Scarlatti Sonatas manuscripts which list organ stops , just as a number of Sonatas differ from binary form and have continuou numbers in the bass line.
I wanted to say that with this song Scarlatti wanted to simulate the Spanish guitar of the time and the rhythm of the castanets, so making it fast actually has its charm if we imagine that it is guitars with castanets playing
Wim, I looked up the Martha Argerich performance. Melodramatic more than dramatic and you're right. Taking 3/8 in one sucks all the real drama out of it. Steinway D or not, your performance set my hair on edge far more than hers. her performance was obviously all about "her" not about Scarlatti.
I agree! There's a lot more to a performance than shear speed which sends the music into a confusing mess. This is one of the reasons why, and I hate to say it too loudly, I don't enjoy Glen Gould's performances. A piano teacher of mine, who is now around 97 and studied with the golden age of pianists including one who studied with Ravel, had a discussion about this with me quite a number of years ago. She kept telling me to slow things down and enjoy the moment rather than playing everything so fast. I didn't quite get what she was saying at the time of course, but many decades later that has finally dawned over Marblehead. :-)
Tempo is unquestionably why her performance is famous, but I don't think that's the sum of what it offers. She intentionally lets some chords fall to the back, "rolling" nearly half of them, with the 1/16ths this creates a buttery sense almost like water being poured from a cup. Though I like it (gasp!) I think it's the exact opposite of what Scarlatti wanted. I joke that he played harpsichord like he was beating it to death, except elegantly. Which I also like.
I do also not like the performance of Marta Argerich. It is really too fast. Thanks Wim for your insightful video. My wife is a pianist and she plays the Scarlatti really beautiful on the piano: th-cam.com/video/J6N5c_VUuRQ/w-d-xo.html What do you guys think about it?
@@Clavichordist Harpsichordist Scott Ross, the who played the sonatas of most of the master composers of that period, said that Glenn Gould was a Nut Job (or something to that effect) and didn't understand Bach at all. People were dazzled by Gould not only because he could play fast (which many keyboardists can do) but because he could do so and at the same time articulate each note distinctly, which few players can do at that speed.
This is a very interesting interpretation of Scarlatti. I majored in harpsichord in college, and in almost every piece I played the tempo was usually taken way too fast by most players who didn't have a lot of experience on playing early keyboard instruments. I always tried to strike a happy medium between sheer speed and tempos slow enough where I could actually properly articulate each note. It got to be rather funny sometimes - one classmate had taken piano lessons for years from a lady who had studied with a teacher who was right out of the European virtuoso style of the late Eighteenth Century - and I about flipped when I saw her play, because she played exactly as Wanda Landowska did in films of her playing! Arm motions, phrasing, everything. My harpsichord teacher was also rather not impressed by this student, but he told me privately that he wasn't going to correct her just because her style of playing was too ingrained in her to be correctable, and she was taking harpsichord only for one semester. Anyway - I think your reasoning on why Scarlatti should be played at the tempo you chose is dead on - that waas my choice when I played this particular sonata too!
Nice story, thanks for sharing this! The first question one should ask if a teacher (or anyone) is telling you to play faster = why? There is surprisingly little knowledge (or interest in diving into) about tempo, notation, tempo ordinario, etc...
I thought you might be interested to see the title page of the original edition of the _Essercizi_, the first published edition of Scarlatti's sonatas comprising what are now numbered K1-30 (although they actually belong to his middle years, so they are out of chronological order in Kirkpatrick's numbering. It's here: www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.293.html/2012/collection-musicale-andr-meyer Although the title page is in Italian, this really is Thomas Roseingrave's first London edition of 1738-9. It mentions only _per gravicembalo_, for the harpsichord -- nothing about clavichord or any other keyboard instrument. Not that this is a reason not to play any Scarlatti sonata on the clavichord (or piano), and I much look forward to hearing you play more Scarlatti. The analytical catalogue by Alain de Chambure to the complete edition of Scarlatti's sonatas recorded on CD by Scott Ross gives tempi for those sonatas where most of the original MSS have an indication, as does the Heugel Urtext edition (which I don't have), and sure enough K141 is marked 'Allegro' -- which, of course, simply means 'cheerful' and is not in itself an indication of speed, except that it should be somewhere between andante and presto. I wish the video of you playing K141 had zoomed in close enough to your right hand to show what you are doing when playing those repeated notes. I was told to play such things 5432 on the piano, trailing fingers rather painfully off the edge of the keyboard, but from a distance it looks as if you're using the same finger.
Thanks for sharing! 5432 does not work on clavichord (and gives you bad control anyway), I believe -if I remember- I used at most 2 fingers, 1 would be difficult too!
Hello Wim :) I love to play Scarlatti sonatas on the harp as they often are suitable for the instrument and sound good. After hearing your version of this sonata I imediately wanted to play it, and it works really well on harp except for the repeating notes. Repeating notes never sound good on harp, and technically it is impossible at this speed. I took this question to one of the best harpists in the world and she also agreed that it is impossible unless we change it. So I wanted to ask you in what way I could change it so it is playable without disturbing the feeling and energy of the piece? It is possible to play very fast trills etc. as long as we are moving on the strings, but returning to the same string is very difficult and no matter how much practice this speed is not possible
Hi Zeynep, that is an interesting perspective you bring up. Pieces like this are played (as I believe) way faster than were meant, and even although I took a somewhat slower pace, it might be so that a slower tempo works great and might be as well closer to what Scarlatti wanted; Tell me first: in what tempo can you still manage the repeated notes? It would interest me to know !
AuthenticSound Hello Wim, at 110 is comfortable with the repeating notes and with practice it could maximum go to 120 but anything faster would be impossible even for a much better player than me. Trying to go too fast we lose the force so a pianissimo section could be possible to play faster
AuthenticSound Hello again Wim, it turns out I lied :) I had some time to try this again and my new fast fingering only works well in the high register. So maybe 100-110 (for quarter notes)
Wim, that the release of the key is less important on the harpsichord than on the clavichord is simply wrong, it is equal important on both for a controlled sound.. Best, Jan
In general one could even say, that quality of touch and release is important to any instrument (organ!), and you're right in the sense that the pressure of the key is the element that needs total control, certainly on clavichord. I might have put that more in perspective, thanks for pointing out!
In Spain XVIII century, Clavicordio is the word for plucked keyboard instrument, so the harpsichord and spinet. The Clavichord is always called Monocordio. So, if this sonatas was written or published in the Spanish Court period, it is intended for the harpsichord. Also, the fast repeated notes is very difficult to play in the type of clavichords in Spain at that time. Setting this a part, it’s great to hear it in the clavichord and with such a great performance!
Considering that the clavichord was (according to my understanding) Bach's primary personal instrument, IMO it is certainly not too far-fetched to believe that Scarlatti (an almost exact contemporary of Bach) may have composed some of his keyboard sonatas for the clavichord.
Interesting comments. I think, as you, that it is important to show the 3/8 in the beginning and not play them as triplets. One needs a good fingering to do this. The clavichord gives a very good texture to the music and everything becomes very transparent. Your clavichord is really in good condition.
This piece is Spanish Guitar Music! Just adapted for the Keyboard
As a facebook's friend of mine asked me to find him (or even play for him) Scarlatti's K383 L19 in f minor, I've search 1st of all at your youtube chan. and came to this wonderful explanation of your interpretation. I do not know yet if you have more by him, but this one and the previous upload with the whole performance of this sonata is really great. Thanks. I'll share it with him.
Man, that is a good instrument. Clavi is so underrated. Something brings out the separation between voices better, and I don't know what it is.
Wim, Jean Rondeau, and Martha Argerich are right together on youtube so I could flip back and forth.The clavichord is slower but gives you more time to think about the different voices. I don't know but it's a hell of a lot more interesting.
@@charlesross9260 In Ms. Argerich's defense, the TH-cam video that Wim referred to was an encore, which is calculated to "Wow" the audience. The thing that many people remember most when leaving the concert hall is the encore(s). Let us never forget, folks, that whatever learned observations may be made about Classical Music, it is still Show Business - as Mozart, Liszt, Horowitz et al. knew, and which contemporary performers such as Yuja Wang are keenly aware of.
@@excelsior999 Anything Martha Argerich plays is Wow. It's more personal taste but I grew up with Fitzpatrick's Scarlatti and it just doesn't sound right on the piano. The few times I was lucky enough to hear Ms. Argerich in concert the audience kept calling her back for more. A genius, an artist, and a babe. What more do you want? Thanks for your comment. Regards.
Kirkpatrick not Fitz. Sorry, didn't finish my coffee.
@@charlesross9260 Same tribe.
The Clavichord is such an expressive instrument.
Fabulous! Full of Character.
I feel always delighted when I watch your video Wim...Recently I heard recording of Emil Gilels,who played exact in slower tempo in order to feel three eight rhythm...I must have impression that eight notes speaks to eachother...
Scarlatti on the clavichord makes great sense.
It works really well indeed, much better than French music on clavichord . We don't know really how the clavichord was present in Southern Europe, many German builders transported clavichords to there.
@@AuthenticSound Italy supplied a number of the instruments to the aristocracy in the Iberian peninsula from. The King of Portugal (the father of Scarlatti's patron, the future queen Barbara) owned a clavichord, however most likely the either a 4 octave or short octave instrument popular in Italy. One wonders if the native Spanish clavichords, were no different from the type Peter Bavington discovered in South America, Compass: C/E-c3, with 'short octave' in the bass. The majority of the fortepianos came from Cristofori and some and later his student who succeeded him. These instruments were GG-d''' and several were converted into harpsichords as recorded in the inventory of Queen Barbara's instrument she had or inherited.
About 20-30 (the number is debated) Iberian Monochordios (the Spanish name for clavichord) survive. One dated from 1750-1775 is 53 notes C to e''' the same range as recommended by C P E Bach as the minimum requirement in his Versuch. Unfortunately, if the date is the early 1750, the range of many of the Sonatas written by Scarlatti exceed this range FF-g'''
The Harpsichords (known as clavichordios in 18th century Spanish language) have various ranges provided by the court builder used the same range as the fortepianos, and then there's, Francisco Perez Mirabal, the court builder who submitted a bill for two 5 octave harpsichords in 1757. D. Scarlatti owned a harpsichord by Francisco Perez Mirabal, too. An English Double Manual FF-f'''' was the wonder of Madrid (Scarlatti wrote in this range) as well some undated later Italian Harpsichords 18th century which had FF,GG-g³ GG-g³ (the Roberto and Frederigo Cresci, Livorno with the compass FF,-f³ arrives too late, dated 1778).
Interestingly, six 17th century harpsichords were discovered, of these the majority were unaligned double manual instruments, previously only known from Ruckers with the approximately the same compass. (Iberian Discoveries: Six Spanish 17th-Century Harpsichords Andreas E. Beurmann. 1999).
I do believe the clavichord does justice to the Sonatas. Of course there's that unfortunate fact, of the title page to the London publication of Scarlatti's Sonatas list the work for the Harpsichord. Of course this may have been a shrewd Scarlatti as the Clavichord was never popular in England.
The Clavichord occupied the domestic instrument in the Iberian Penninsula. SEBASTIAN ALBERO (1722-1756) was first organist of the Royal Chapel, Madrid, 1748-1756 and thus in the same sphere as Scarlatti. He wrote "30 Sonatas for the clavichord," published in 1978, but is this modern use of clavichord or a mistranslated 18th century term into English (harpsichord)? I haven't seen the publication or the manuscript, the article I found the reference sources from a pianist who was "mining" the harpsichord and organ traditions of Spain and Portugal. (The Iberian Peninsula Organs had minimal if not completely absent pedal sections).
For those interest, in this tradition, the link is www.suttonelms.org.uk/MUSIC2.HTML
I am a fan of the organ works Juan Bautista José Cabanilles th-cam.com/video/hP1D-l3ngwQ/w-d-xo.html The Spanish organs were known for the reed stops, which influenced French 19th Organs (and organs built in South America) as the builder Aristide Cavaillé-Coll repaired and work on many Spanish organs earlier in career.
Antonio Soler Fanfare (as played by E Power Biggs) is also quite fantastic. (Yes, I know it's an acquired taste).
To tie this in with Scarlatti, I can think of two of Scarlatti Sonatas manuscripts which list organ stops , just as a number of Sonatas differ from binary form and have continuou numbers in the bass line.
I wanted to say that with this song Scarlatti wanted to simulate the Spanish guitar of the time and the rhythm of the castanets, so making it fast actually has its charm if we imagine that it is guitars with castanets playing
Wim, I looked up the Martha Argerich performance. Melodramatic more than dramatic and you're right. Taking 3/8 in one sucks all the real drama out of it. Steinway D or not, your performance set my hair on edge far more than hers. her performance was obviously all about "her" not about Scarlatti.
Thanks, David!
I agree! There's a lot more to a performance than shear speed which sends the music into a confusing mess. This is one of the reasons why, and I hate to say it too loudly, I don't enjoy Glen Gould's performances.
A piano teacher of mine, who is now around 97 and studied with the golden age of pianists including one who studied with Ravel, had a discussion about this with me quite a number of years ago. She kept telling me to slow things down and enjoy the moment rather than playing everything so fast. I didn't quite get what she was saying at the time of course, but many decades later that has finally dawned over Marblehead. :-)
Tempo is unquestionably why her performance is famous, but I don't think that's the sum of what it offers. She intentionally lets some chords fall to the back, "rolling" nearly half of them, with the 1/16ths this creates a buttery sense almost like water being poured from a cup.
Though I like it (gasp!) I think it's the exact opposite of what Scarlatti wanted. I joke that he played harpsichord like he was beating it to death, except elegantly. Which I also like.
I do also not like the performance of Marta Argerich. It is really too fast. Thanks Wim for your insightful video. My wife is a pianist and she plays the Scarlatti really beautiful on the piano: th-cam.com/video/J6N5c_VUuRQ/w-d-xo.html
What do you guys think about it?
@@Clavichordist Harpsichordist Scott Ross, the who played the sonatas of most of the master composers of that period, said that Glenn Gould was a Nut Job (or something to that effect) and didn't understand Bach at all. People were dazzled by Gould not only because he could play fast (which many keyboardists can do) but because he could do so and at the same time articulate each note distinctly, which few players can do at that speed.
hello, would it be possible to know the model of your clavichord Thank you
Saxon clavichord built by Joris Potvlieghe.
This is a very interesting interpretation of Scarlatti. I majored in harpsichord in college, and in almost every piece I played the tempo was usually taken way too fast by most players who didn't have a lot of experience on playing early keyboard instruments. I always tried to strike a happy medium between sheer speed and tempos slow enough where I could actually properly articulate each note. It got to be rather funny sometimes - one classmate had taken piano lessons for years from a lady who had studied with a teacher who was right out of the European virtuoso style of the late Eighteenth Century - and I about flipped when I saw her play, because she played exactly as Wanda Landowska did in films of her playing! Arm motions, phrasing, everything. My harpsichord teacher was also rather not impressed by this student, but he told me privately that he wasn't going to correct her just because her style of playing was too ingrained in her to be correctable, and she was taking harpsichord only for one semester. Anyway - I think your reasoning on why Scarlatti should be played at the tempo you chose is dead on - that waas my choice when I played this particular sonata too!
Nice story, thanks for sharing this! The first question one should ask if a teacher (or anyone) is telling you to play faster = why? There is surprisingly little knowledge (or interest in diving into) about tempo, notation, tempo ordinario, etc...
Very true!
I thought you might be interested to see the title page of the original edition of the _Essercizi_, the first published edition of Scarlatti's sonatas comprising what are now numbered K1-30 (although they actually belong to his middle years, so they are out of chronological order in Kirkpatrick's numbering.
It's here:
www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.293.html/2012/collection-musicale-andr-meyer
Although the title page is in Italian, this really is Thomas Roseingrave's first London edition of 1738-9. It mentions only _per gravicembalo_, for the harpsichord -- nothing about clavichord or any other keyboard instrument.
Not that this is a reason not to play any Scarlatti sonata on the clavichord (or piano), and I much look forward to hearing you play more Scarlatti.
The analytical catalogue by Alain de Chambure to the complete edition of Scarlatti's sonatas recorded on CD by Scott Ross gives tempi for those sonatas where most of the original MSS have an indication, as does the Heugel Urtext edition (which I don't have), and sure enough K141 is marked 'Allegro' -- which, of course, simply means 'cheerful' and is not in itself an indication of speed, except that it should be somewhere between andante and presto.
I wish the video of you playing K141 had zoomed in close enough to your right hand to show what you are doing when playing those repeated notes. I was told to play such things 5432 on the piano, trailing fingers rather painfully off the edge of the keyboard, but from a distance it looks as if you're using the same finger.
Thanks for sharing! 5432 does not work on clavichord (and gives you bad control anyway), I believe -if I remember- I used at most 2 fingers, 1 would be difficult too!
camille françois vandaag 15/3/2019
Did you ever listen to Inga Piwowarska playing K141 on the accordeon ? I feel it is marvellous
Hi hadn't but now I have... fantastic, thanks for sharing!
Hello Wim :) I love to play Scarlatti sonatas on the harp as they often are suitable for the instrument and sound good. After hearing your version of this sonata I imediately wanted to play it, and it works really well on harp except for the repeating notes. Repeating notes never sound good on harp, and technically it is impossible at this speed. I took this question to one of the best harpists in the world and she also agreed that it is impossible unless we change it. So I wanted to ask you in what way I could change it so it is playable without disturbing the feeling and energy of the piece? It is possible to play very fast trills etc. as long as we are moving on the strings, but returning to the same string is very difficult and no matter how much practice this speed is not possible
Hi Zeynep, that is an interesting perspective you bring up. Pieces like this are played (as I believe) way faster than were meant, and even although I took a somewhat slower pace, it might be so that a slower tempo works great and might be as well closer to what Scarlatti wanted; Tell me first: in what tempo can you still manage the repeated notes? It would interest me to know !
AuthenticSound Hello Wim, at 110 is comfortable with the repeating notes and with practice it could maximum go to 120 but anything faster would be impossible even for a much better player than me. Trying to go too fast we lose the force so a pianissimo section could be possible to play faster
AuthenticSound Hello again Wim, it turns out I lied :) I had some time to try this again and my new fast fingering only works well in the high register. So maybe 100-110 (for quarter notes)
Wim, that the release of the key is less important on the harpsichord than on the clavichord is simply wrong, it is equal important on both for a controlled sound.. Best, Jan
In general one could even say, that quality of touch and release is important to any instrument (organ!), and you're right in the sense that the pressure of the key is the element that needs total control, certainly on clavichord. I might have put that more in perspective, thanks for pointing out!
A friend of mine refers to an uncontrolled tone on the clavichord as a "bag of mosquitos". :-)
The sonata must have been intended for both harpsichord and clavichord. It fits so well on the clavi! (:
Who knows? My guess (but I don't know yet) that there is still much to be researched.
It makes me wonder if while following Scarlatti you might end up finding some Padre Antonio Soler pieces.
The least I can do is have a look! If I find some, I address it in a Q&A (having that every Wednesday now). Thanks for suggesting!
No problem, Keep up the wonderful clavichord pieces.
I find that Wim on the clavichord sounds better than Martha Argerich on the machine gun.
thanks
Very cleverly put, and you may very well be right.