Using AD&D, we had a thief party. Everyone was a thief or multi-class thief. We ran it in a big city and never went out of the gates. It was an absolute blast.
Thieves Cant dictionaries can be found online - From the 17th century there is Thomas Harman's A Caveat or Warning for Common Cursetors (19th century reprint) and from the 18th century Nathan Bailey's 'A Collection of the Canting Words and Terms, both ancient and modern'. There are also pdfs of the Hobo code, allegedly used by vagrants in 19th century America.
Daniel your timing is impeccable! I am creating an encounter where the thieves guild uses a ghost town to gather for meetings and such. But normally the thieves live out normal lives and only get together if called on.
I forget where but I read somewhere that the thieves' guild may have non thieves as members, citing Fighters as "muscle" and Magic-Users as providers of information and tools to help with "the job" (think of the tech oriented guy in all heist movies). So the members of the thieves' guild could be of any class. If you want to run the Thieve's Guild as antagonists, then they need to be a huge organization that spans a huge area, allowing for hex and/or point crawls -- in the A1-A4 modules, the slavers could be considered a thieves' guild with a particularly unsavory trade as part of their activities. The first module actually starts in an urban setting (it is set in the under_city_) In fiction, a descendent of the thieves' guild may be the adventures' guild you find in games and manga like Goblin Slayer
If you're running the guild then you can down scale to more a points of crime type of set up, they don't care about the dungeons but smuggleing routes and places to rob or extortionate.
In my campaign, the hometown guild is an "extended family" of halflings who are helpful in finding thigs that have fallen off wagons ;) but there is a chance a halfling in another small town is a "cousin." In the larger towns, one has a classic guild, where the party's theives need to check in and notify if they are up to any hijinks. The second town had a corrupt priest running a "home for the wayward" that the party made contact with. A good hook that I've used is involving the party in a heist on behalf of the guild or their connections where "out of town muscle" may be helpful to keep the heat off the local operatives .
I just love going from seeing Daniel dropping knowledge on a photo shoot with Marisa to dropping knowledge on D&D. Always enjoyable seeing him in both settings. Great and thought provoking video, as always
Issue 66 of Dragon Magazine (October 1982) had a pull out section that was a "Thieves' cant" dictionary that could be folded into a digest sized booklet.
Been working on a thieves guild that's built around a secret inner circle that are dedicated to the gathering of information and secret-brokering for their Mistress of Secrets. I like the idea of knowledge being a treasure in and of itself. They also have a banking racket as it makes sense that a syndicate thats specializes in theft would also capitalize on securing wealth from theft.
Daniel your timing is impeccable! I am creating an encounter where the thieves guild uses a ghost town to gather for meetings and such. But normally the thieves live out normal lives and only get together if called on. In addition, it is a heist job for the PC thief who is made aware that they are to lift a package that the guild recently acquired.
Nice Daniel. One of the things that drew me deep into D&D when I was a kid back in the early 80's were Thieves guilds, Bard Colleges and Wizard schools. Even with my youthful naivete I knew there would be some sort of socio-economic reason for such. As years go on of course, especially in long lasting campaigns, often such groups fall aside. Oddly enough, due to my reading of Scott Lynch's 'Lies of Locke Lamora', a renaissance of such was brought back to my campaign. Cheers.
The Thieves World boxed set was a setting from the books adapted for multiple game systems. D&D, Runequest, Traveller (!), and others. The Gameadaptions were done by authors who knew the systems. It was (and is) good.
Jimmy the Hand and the Mockers guild detailed in Raymond Feist books gives an excellent insight to a thieves guild’s structure, politics, business model and code of conduct. Also the Gygax novels of Gord the gutless l feel give detail into guilds. There are numerous adventure opportunities with thieves guilds. Another excellent video.
If you've ever read the discworld series, the way law and order works in that is very fun and interesting, the guilds are all officially sanctioned, including the thieves guild, so only guild members can commit thievery and those thieving not in the guild are then reprimanded by the guild, there is funnily enough an influence from Fafhrd and the grey mouser, the chief city of the discworld "ankh morpork" is a play on lankhmar
I've run a thieves guild and am gonna run the same one next week probably and I think I've done a pretty decent job. The area is a frontier town with other frontier towns nearby. The thieves guild is fairly small, only 20 or so in total, but active and very proficient. The authorities know they exist and are trying to arrest them, but aren't finding any success. This is how it's setup: - There is a leader, a wererat, but only two people know who he actually is. He posts his messages to the guild via a board and otherwise acts like any other member. - All the thieves grew up in the slums and have their lives improved by the guild. They all act like a family and are fiercely loyal to each other. - Their hideout is in the middle of a market square. The square looks like separate buildings put together, but it's one big building with secret entrances inside. - Most shopkeepers in that square are paid by them and keep a close eye on any authorities or adventurers for them. - The thieves do not kill. It's part of their moral code to only do theft, burglary, robbery, and selling off their stolen good. But it's also a way to keep the authorities not too concerned with them. I also gave my players a list the guard captain kept where all their crimes are listed. It has some sneaky things in it like the same book being stolen from one bookshop in the market square in a world without printing or the fact that the market square isn't targeted often while other places get ransacked every week or so.
Great video. Scale is something interesting to consider with a guild. One enterprising conspirator and a loose web of pickpockets and thugs? Or a network of blackmail and alliances with assassins on hire?
Your drop-in multi one shot idea sounds very like a Blades in the Dark campaign. Very different system but there are probably many things that could be stolen from it! Or you could straight up run a Thieves Guild capital in BotD with some setting tweaks
I use the Thieves Guild heavily in my campaign. They’re a bit of an open secret. The official title is “The Most Honorable Guild of Cartographers,” and one of their main goals is to have a monopoly on map production and collection. They pressure adventurers who have recently been out exploring dungeons or ruins, take their maps, and then send a crack team of their own to clear whatever the adventurers missed. Then they turn the place into a hideout or outpost if they want to. They relinquish some of these spaces to the local government as a form of payment. They have lots of people in their employ, from beggars to the “Press Gang” or Rumormongers Guild. Kids that go around to taverns and tell people the news / rumors, at a small price. Mostly true, sometimes false, as benefits the Guild. Locals will also share rumors, but it’s standard to add details or mix them up as a big running prank. The Rumormongers are more reliable, though still controlled by their own interests.
2e had an excellent book called Den of Thieves. Dragon magazine had 2 issues with a lot of information on Thieves Guild, a lot of detail. I think the book repeats some of that.
@BanditsKeep issue 115 Pegasus lady fighting a devil on a dragon on the cover. Den of Thieves is on Drivethrurpg as Pod too. Good stuff. More details than you will probably ever need
A campaign I play in is centered around a Thieves Guild which is mafia-like, a lot of Goodfellas/Sopranos type stuff but in a high-magic city. The guild has all classes in it with their own roles.
I think one way that a concept of a thieves' guild could function in a non-urban game is to simply have multiple, most likely rival guilds claiming different locations (or even inhabiting the same location). Think of Kurosawa's Yojimbo playing two yakuza gangs against one another, or The Man with No Name in A Fistful of Dollars (which pretty much plagiarised the former). It could even take the form of a gang warfare situation, or opposed mafia families; in a Points of Light kind of game, resources are probably scarce, so it'd make sense for different criminal factions to vie for control of said resources (perhaps one guild controls a stake in, let's say, water distribution, while another runs a racket on farmers who obviously need water - you could have a conflict of interest there between the two). There's a video game that executes this faction rivalry in a very interesting way (that is heavily inspired by old school TTRPGs) called Age of Decadence, which is essentially a Points of Light style campaign where you can have the Thieves Guild, Assassins Guild and the Commerce Guild try to sabotage one another and take control of these last few remnants of civilisation in a post-apocalyptic world (I know I've named three different guilds here, but to me, they all just seem to play off the same trope of a 'Thieves Guild' as a criminal organisation).
Generally, I see the thieves' guild as regulating thievery, which is why they are tolerated by rulers and merchants. They should supply 'insurance receipts' and customer service if protected businesses are targeted. This can put PCs on the inside (a source of jobs and resources), or outside (targeted, or rivals). Guilds would also demarc territory and cooperate across cities.
I had a DM introduce me to a thieves guild campaign. Our group went from street waifs auditioning to join the guild to made men and shot callers answering only to the guild master. We had to plain heists and deal with mutiny in the guild while finding out who was the snitch informing the city watch. Good times. It was in 2e AD&D.
Ironically, I think a party of non-thieves works well with a thieves' guild game, since the guild already has plenty of thieves, so non-thieves would be would be in extra demand. Can have heists where there are roles other than just sneaking and thieving, like have the fighter be the muscle, a cleric or magic user to give aid beyond mundane means, so on. One option could be to have missions that are less "do this task" and more "make sure the guy we sent succeeds at his task" which can give a different sort of pressure. Conveniently, it might actually help with the issue I've run into of the party splitting when one character is able to sneak, but the others aren't and have to stick back. As far as thieves having big scores outside of a city, first thing to come to mind is The Hobbit (ok maybe Erebor is technically a city, just an abandoned one except for the dragon that made it its lair). Morrowind was I think my first exposure to thieves' guilds in a game, and I think some of their quests similarly had you heading out into the boonies to find some McGuffin, and I don't think even Morrowind's "cities" were really all that urban by comparison to how I envision the setting of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.
Coins are icing on the cake, rural farmland you are dealing with a bunch of chicken thieves. Raiding someone's smoke house to sale smoke cure meats in village/town for extra pocket change. Athletes/body builders along with active-duty military burns through more calories than chair sitter or slow factory line work. Historic bad weather food storages and cattle plague creating famine at the same time Germany was having Protestant civil wars. Accuse your neighbor of heresies and unlive them for their remaining food storage. Cattle/herd raiding is the source of blood feuds from Greece to Scotland. Not forgetting road and bridge toll tax. Officially you have to go the long way around and pay a given number of toll taxes to maintain the creek/stream bridge and crossing on that guy's road. But I know a short cut shave half a day's travel for a lot less cost to your pocket.
I never have used thieves guilds, but I used plenty of organised crime in my games. And while to some degree I agree, that organised crime is much more active in urban environments, I would say it is also can be present in rural areas, only the focus shifts. Like in a small points of lights setting, the organised crime could be about smuggling, about hiding place for those criminals that had to leave the city because if got to hot for them there, or plenty of other reasons.
Henry Mayhew's London Labour and the London Poor can make for interesting background material, especially the fourth volume dealing with prostitutes, thieves, swindlers, and beggars. Even though it describes mid 19th century London, a lot of the goings-on can easily be transported into a fantasy city.
The last cool campaign I ran involved the thieves guild. Especially in the beginning, and after a year, even then. Though, once the main character had cleared the guild by level 4, they sure as hell came back by level 8 for their cut
I had a setting that split the difference between points of lights and urban -- inhad a number of city states that had been federated into a single nation. Between the states, things could still get hairy -- wont get too into that. Each city had its own theves guild, and they were federated like a shadow of the cities' governments were. On the surface -- assuming you were in the know regarding illicit activities -- the guilds were aligned. They had deals with eachother, there was reciprocity, acknowledgement of membership of other guilds... But at any given time, there could be clandestine actions that the party could be hired, where one guild would act against another, while still claiming to be at peace. Or there would be plots where two guilds might operate collectively in the territory normally controlled by a third guild -- using the party for plausible deniability. In between the cities, there were ruins and lost temples rumored to hold treasure, so a guild might be a quest giver while another acts as antagoist. And like Leiber, i had ither orgs like the Bravos and the Beggars acting as sister organizations. We re talking layers here. Add to this, the city states would use the guilds as temporary allies to take clandestine actions against one another.
Interesting idea.....i would run a team of Spies/Agents ( thief PCs only ) working as the secret police for a Greek city state. ( ShadowDark Greek Mythos ) Dealing with cultists and monsters to tough for the normal watchmen, keeping tabs on foreign spies in the city, uncovering senators or merchants doing deals with foreign spies for information or illegal trading. Also dealing with criminal organisations rackets, of all the usual types and maybe a few arcane ones. Working undercover..... instead of being total Glory Hunters would be an interesting change of pace.
I have been wanting to set up a thieves guild but been unclear what to do with it. What you said at the start really helps me. I’ve never understood why authorities would allow a thieves guild, but if the guild has rules, like no murders or kidnapping, and they will even hunt down anyone who might bring the authorities down on them, that’s enough to look the other way or even give them a license.
While I think guilds of thieves would be few and far between in general, I don't think they are necessarily stuck in the city. I think of "Robin Hood and His Merry Men" as a sort of thieves guild. I tend to use guilds for both thieves and assassins (more rare), with the latter being as (or even sometimes more) interested in information than the taking life. After all, you may need plenty of the former to successfully do the latter without being caught. The thieves guild may be willing to do some similar things as the assassins for less money (and chance of success), while the assassins are unlikely to dabble in "petty" thievery and such like. They do have their pride after all.
I hardly ever used thieves guilds in the 40+ years I am playing DnD since recently. My players came to Monmurg (World of Greyhawk), a large city build by the (good) Kingdom of Keoland, but conquered by pirates a hundred years ago. In this lawless environment, I placed 'the kartell' (couldn't figure a better name), a losely organisation consisting of a thieves guild, assassins guild, mercenary guild, gambling guild and a prost..ution guild (drugs are legal in Monmurg, so no drugs guild). They pay kind of taxes to the rulers of the city and in return can almost do what they want, sometimes even helped by the authorities. The plot for my players was that some of the old Keolandish nobility, driven off by the Sea Princes (the name of the pirates), were hiding inside the kartell and now planing the assassination of the ruler Prince Jeon II. They got support from agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood, a far away super powerfull racist monk organisation, who is planning to overthrough the Sea Princes to dominate the entire south of the Flaness (known world). Needless to say that it got rather bloody and nasty, with some of the protagonists purely evil and driven by hate or power or both, and with lots of conspiracy and violence. I turned my players into paranoia with all the sceaming and plotting and spying and ambushes. 😅 That is how I do 'thieves guilds'.
My Assassins Guild is rather obliquely state sanctioned as a proto-espionage organ each Noble House has, akin to how Dune sets out, the "theives guild" form an arm of each guild, but various merchant princes have gangs of thugs and control various small theiving "guilds" that work as spys and such against each other, the lone theif must be very good to survive against both law and guilds but still, mercenary theives have a place being deniable and not in on the secrets. So places and complexity for any PC theif and plenty of recurring NPC action too.
There are a few details that should not be forgotten. Aside from coinage, anything else that is worth stealing in medieval and similarly dated settings, are unique items. There are 2 ways to make money from them. Take them apart as raw materials are not trackable, or sell them back to the original owner. Neither is part of a thief's skills most of the time. That's one part where a thieves guild can come in. There is also the question of law enforcement. What are the exact duties of the city watch/guard? Are they just there to keep the peace? Protect the property of the noble/rich? How closely are which crimes investigated? Depending on that a thieves guild becomes more or less necessary for the criminal underworld. In one novel the city officials knew were the thieves guild was, but it was well outside town. A small cave system about half a day away. While within the city's jurisdiction, any force strong enough to raid it, could be seen miles away. That is, if there weren't spies in the city government. It wasn't just open for thieves, but any sort of ne’er-do-wells. Including as an example, professional players of games of chance, though cheaters were harshly dealt with, more so than in the city. You don't cheat amongst friends. However, players could meet, gauge each others skills and team up to cheat together in the city later. The same could be done with teams of pick pockets. The movie 'The Great Train Robbery' (1978) had a great scene there. One stumbles to slow the mark down while another seemingly stops him from falling. The third picked the purse and gave the loot to the passing fourth member of the team. It went so smoothly only one noticed it and he was on the lookout for the thief for another job. A moment later the four dispersed into the crowd. Most fantasy novels show the thief doing his occupation solo, but if they go professional enough to have a thieves guild, why not lower the risk? A burglar could do with a pick pocket that pick pockets a key, makes an imprint before being chased away leaving the original for his partner that chased him away to return the key. Only after the burglary the scene might be remembered as suspicious. The possibilities are endless as are the ways a GM can use them to create puzzles for the group.
I think it is easier to incorporate thieves guilds with adult players. In my Greyhawk campaign, the guild control all the illegal activities : gambling, prostitution, smuggling, extorsion, bribery. They do it the same way as our modern criminal organisations. Since we are all over 40 around the table, the game is not PG 😅.
Talking about theives' guilds the way you are, makes me think for about DnD 3.5 one of the last supplements put out for it was called Complete Scoundrel, basically for that iteration of the game, the book gave ideas on how to play each class with a more roguish feel. Same thing I see you getting at here, a thieves' guild doesn't have tonbe made up of all rogues/thieves, multiple classes can have their position in such an organization
First rule of Thieves Guild: "you don't talk about the Thieves Guild!". Everyone knows it is there, in the background, but no one talks openly about it. Just don't ever cross them.
Ran a thieves guild in an AD&D game. Got filtered by the monthly upkeep costs. Should have been hiring out my services {lockpicking} and stealing from the PCs more. ...Largest score was robbing a noble lady's house of all her fine fur coats {surprisingly expensive}. 🤣😂🤣
Having a party deal with a thieves' guild should be right there with dealing with a church or king/government. Ongoing or sporadic or once only. Every kind of faction should be fair game for an adventure/campaign.
i've seen people get really hung up on it being a thieves' GUILD, and how a GUILD wouldn't work that way, but i've always thought the name is just an ironic joke
All Thieves want to work alone, each his own way. To create a Thieves Guild ... Someone/Something strong want to make it to obtain controle over many littles local Thieves as employer (who do not keep all money for themes). Or it's a big mafia, a familly. Yes i think about "how to create a such thing".
Blades in the Dark is centered around playin a bunch of scoundrels and does a great job of showin how you can't make moves in an established city without shittin on someone elses shoes. Buildin your crew's reputation and turf, dealin with havin members in jail, avoidin Blue Coats while angerin powerful people and bein confined to a large city, all feels like some solid Thieves Guild material to muse over.
I never could get a DM to get into using the thieves guild in their campaign. Try as I might they would just wave me aside, perhaps answer a question or two about something I might ask the thieves guild about and move on. Sort of sad really because I mostly played thieves and feel that I missed out on a good part of the "game".
@BanditsKeep I believe that they just didn't want to deal with it. Even though they could have used it to force me to pay dues and even run jobs for them.
@@BanditsKeep Have you ever read R.A. Salvatore's The Halfling's Gem? It showcases an example of a big city guild with it's house wizard; assorted thugs, skilled rogues, and assassins, etc. 'course, half the time when I listen to one of your videos it inspires me (or drives me) to make one of my own on the topic. 'course I give you credit for being inspiring. I think the subject should come in two parts: 1. Full on, large city Thieves Guilds (Cartels, clubs, whatever), with all the upsides an downsides there of, and... 2. Ideas for non-guild thieves guilds... For example: The land of Bree is too small to have even a cadre of a guild, but it has locals like Bill Ferny, whose shady rep can be used in-game. Or perhaps The Darling family who were 'trouble' for Mayberry every now and then. Most communities have 'those guys!' a family or loose collection of oddballs who are not quite out-right bandits, nor are they sophisticated thieves, but fall somewhere just short of such. In the past I have used similar NPCs whenever I could, more than once. So if the PC's pass through Town B, and during one encounter, bump heads with Andy Gravelbagger - something minor. Then, perhaps several sessions later the PC's once again pass through or visit Town B, only to have an encounter with Mr. Gravelbagger and/or, 2-4 of his cousins... How these encounters pan out, are up the the PC's, of course. Sometimes knowing someone with a shady rep in a region has values for the right PC(s).
From my perspective only thieves belong to a Thieves Guild. The "Guild" is the fore runner of a Union. A plumber wouldn't be a member of the Electrician's Union. In Europe the merchant classes formed Guilds to maintain standards and quality while giving them a larger voice in the market. Anyway, there are all sorts of underground criminal organizations that can be made up of various classes and skills but a Thieves Guild is just for Thieves IMHO. Typical Thieves Guilds would include homeless beggers, street buskers (minstrels), chimeny sweeps, lamp lighters, orphans (local orphanage being the training center for young members) anyone who is basically invisible to the average citizen.
Interesting--For a thieves guild to really work you need to work out what would constitute illegal and illicit trade. I'm not sure gambling would be a problem or a good thing for thieves guilds to be involved with in general, except that it might be a good way to mask income from their other more nefarious sources. Sure, they can be involved in all kinds of what we in the modern world would consider to be vice oriented businesses, because that's an easy way to turn a gold piece. But you have to ask--why would those things be illegal at all? For my money (pun intended), in worlds where there are multiple gods, I would think criminality would come down to crimes of violence and crimes of property. Smuggling, evading taxation, coining, vandalizing rival businesses, etc. would be crimes of property and possibly violence as well. Black market goods that are being sold at prices that undercut other local guilds might well be something a thieves guild would be involved in. If slavery is illegal, an underground slave trade might be something that a thieves guild would be involved in. Season 2 of HBO's Rome had a good example of what sanctioned thieves guilds might have looked like. Prostitution was legal. Slavery was legal. Gambling was legal. They ran massive protection rackets in the poor quarters of the city and the bosses who were under the thumb of and answered to the patricians and ruling parties of Rome. And each little guild owned it's own part of the low quarters. And would most people in a thieves guild be a classed thief? My guess is no. A classed thief is a specialist who gets called in when discretion and delicacy is required. Most people in a thieves guild will probably be thugs or fighters of some kind. You're never going to win a gang war with classed thieves. They have a D6 hit die, a miserable attack table, no magic---they do have a back stab. But that's a one and done thing and if you don't kill your mark in all likelihood your in really hot water. You don't need a classed thief to go shake down a local fruit stand vendor for protection money. You don't need a classed thief to ambush or protect a caravan--that would be a waste of their talents. When thinking of thieves guilds and where the class, thief, fits into the world of adventuring this is where my mind goes.
The Roman client-patron relations are fun. I liked how Byzantium had a mix of sport supporter clubs, political machines, street gangs. They are ties that stretch up and down through every level. My mates used the Roman street gangs for the Moon cities. The gangs fight for control of streets and function as the closest thing to governing bodies at a street level. The aristocracy has their own household guards and sponsor some gangs. There is an official secret police, but they care about crimes against the city and the satrap.
The thieves guild - The Hellhounds - are one of the three major factions in my current DCC campaign. They have the support of the lower classes, as well as a few developing cults. The PCs dont know who to support of the 3 factions, but know the hellhounds are bad news... But theyre afraid that if they oppose the Hellhounds directly, they'll suffer. Its created a very fun situation. Thieves guilds can be a VERY intimidating enemy in an urban campaign!
I use Thieves Guilds all the time in 5e. The criminal contacts from backgrounds is a perfect example. I also use them for assassination quests. A clever Thieves Guild could send good characters on quests to destroy rivals, or frame good people without the characters knowing. I will also use Thieves Cant as graffiti to mark locations of safe houses or marks.
My players always seem to crave a thieves' guild. They think it's just the coolest thing! If there's a rogue in the party, if I don't include a guild of some kind, I'll be feeling the heat.
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Using AD&D, we had a thief party. Everyone was a thief or multi-class thief. We ran it in a big city and never went out of the gates. It was an absolute blast.
Thieves Cant dictionaries can be found online - From the 17th century there is Thomas Harman's A Caveat or Warning for Common Cursetors (19th century reprint) and from the 18th century Nathan Bailey's 'A Collection of the Canting Words and Terms, both ancient and modern'. There are also pdfs of the Hobo code, allegedly used by vagrants in 19th century America.
Daniel your timing is impeccable! I am creating an encounter where the thieves guild uses a ghost town to gather for meetings and such. But normally the thieves live out normal lives and only get together if called on.
And delete this one (or don't)
Thieves World stories were also a lot of fun to read regarding thieves.
I forget where but I read somewhere that the thieves' guild may have non thieves as members, citing Fighters as "muscle" and Magic-Users as providers of information and tools to help with "the job" (think of the tech oriented guy in all heist movies). So the members of the thieves' guild could be of any class.
If you want to run the Thieve's Guild as antagonists, then they need to be a huge organization that spans a huge area, allowing for hex and/or point crawls -- in the A1-A4 modules, the slavers could be considered a thieves' guild with a particularly unsavory trade as part of their activities. The first module actually starts in an urban setting (it is set in the under_city_)
In fiction, a descendent of the thieves' guild may be the adventures' guild you find in games and manga like Goblin Slayer
If you're running the guild then you can down scale to more a points of crime type of set up, they don't care about the dungeons but smuggleing routes and places to rob or extortionate.
I hereby claim this first comment in the name of The Grey Mouser!
🐈
@@williambennett7935 no. I'm first, I'm stealing it. Pick pocket successful.
In my campaign, the hometown guild is an "extended family" of halflings who are helpful in finding thigs that have fallen off wagons ;) but there is a chance a halfling in another small town is a "cousin."
In the larger towns, one has a classic guild, where the party's theives need to check in and notify if they are up to any hijinks. The second town had a corrupt priest running a "home for the wayward" that the party made contact with.
A good hook that I've used is involving the party in a heist on behalf of the guild or their connections where "out of town muscle" may be helpful to keep the heat off the local operatives .
I just love going from seeing Daniel dropping knowledge on a photo shoot with Marisa to dropping knowledge on D&D. Always enjoyable seeing him in both settings. Great and thought provoking video, as always
Issue 66 of Dragon Magazine (October 1982) had a pull out section that was a "Thieves' cant" dictionary that could be folded into a digest sized booklet.
Nice!
Still have mine somewhere. Been ages since I looked at it.
Been working on a thieves guild that's built around a secret inner circle that are dedicated to the gathering of information and secret-brokering for their Mistress of Secrets. I like the idea of knowledge being a treasure in and of itself. They also have a banking racket as it makes sense that a syndicate thats specializes in theft would also capitalize on securing wealth from theft.
Daniel your timing is impeccable! I am creating an encounter where the thieves guild uses a ghost town to gather for meetings and such. But normally the thieves live out normal lives and only get together if called on. In addition, it is a heist job for the PC thief who is made aware that they are to lift a package that the guild recently acquired.
You posted this twice. You should keep this one. (Or don't your call.)
Nice Daniel. One of the things that drew me deep into D&D when I was a kid back in the early 80's were Thieves guilds, Bard Colleges and Wizard schools. Even with my youthful naivete I knew there would be some sort of socio-economic reason for such. As years go on of course, especially in long lasting campaigns, often such groups fall aside. Oddly enough, due to my reading of Scott Lynch's 'Lies of Locke Lamora', a renaissance of such was brought back to my campaign. Cheers.
Since I was planning on being the first thief in your campaign, I'll start drawing up my plans for a thieves guild.
You'll have to pay me if you start a thieve's guild 🤔
The Thieves World boxed set was a setting from the books adapted for multiple game systems. D&D, Runequest, Traveller (!), and others. The Gameadaptions were done by authors who knew the systems. It was (and is) good.
Jimmy the Hand and the Mockers guild detailed in Raymond Feist books gives an excellent insight to a thieves guild’s structure, politics, business model and code of conduct. Also the Gygax novels of Gord the gutless l feel give detail into guilds. There are numerous adventure opportunities with thieves guilds. Another excellent video.
If you've ever read the discworld series, the way law and order works in that is very fun and interesting, the guilds are all officially sanctioned, including the thieves guild, so only guild members can commit thievery and those thieving not in the guild are then reprimanded by the guild, there is funnily enough an influence from Fafhrd and the grey mouser, the chief city of the discworld "ankh morpork" is a play on lankhmar
For non-urban thieves, and for examples of non-thieves being part of the group, look at the BX entries for bandits or brigands.
Indeed!
There was a series of supplements in late 70’s/early 80’s (IRC) called Thieves Guild. 10 volumes from Gamelords,inc.
I was going to mention this, too. Thieves Guild & and its modules are full of ideas that can be imported to D&D.
I've run a thieves guild and am gonna run the same one next week probably and I think I've done a pretty decent job.
The area is a frontier town with other frontier towns nearby. The thieves guild is fairly small, only 20 or so in total, but active and very proficient. The authorities know they exist and are trying to arrest them, but aren't finding any success.
This is how it's setup:
- There is a leader, a wererat, but only two people know who he actually is. He posts his messages to the guild via a board and otherwise acts like any other member.
- All the thieves grew up in the slums and have their lives improved by the guild. They all act like a family and are fiercely loyal to each other.
- Their hideout is in the middle of a market square. The square looks like separate buildings put together, but it's one big building with secret entrances inside.
- Most shopkeepers in that square are paid by them and keep a close eye on any authorities or adventurers for them.
- The thieves do not kill. It's part of their moral code to only do theft, burglary, robbery, and selling off their stolen good. But it's also a way to keep the authorities not too concerned with them.
I also gave my players a list the guard captain kept where all their crimes are listed. It has some sneaky things in it like the same book being stolen from one bookshop in the market square in a world without printing or the fact that the market square isn't targeted often while other places get ransacked every week or so.
Fahfrd & The Gray Mouser kicks ass. Best S&S
Heck yeah!
Great video. Scale is something interesting to consider with a guild. One enterprising conspirator and a loose web of pickpockets and thugs? Or a network of blackmail and alliances with assassins on hire?
A dungeon "guild" run by a monster? Tips off adventurers, who give it a cut? Finds supplies? Has minions?
True!
Your drop-in multi one shot idea sounds very like a Blades in the Dark campaign. Very different system but there are probably many things that could be stolen from it!
Or you could straight up run a Thieves Guild capital in BotD with some setting tweaks
Ah, yes! That would be cool - I’ve never played Blades but have read a bunch about it
I use the Thieves Guild heavily in my campaign. They’re a bit of an open secret. The official title is “The Most Honorable Guild of Cartographers,” and one of their main goals is to have a monopoly on map production and collection. They pressure adventurers who have recently been out exploring dungeons or ruins, take their maps, and then send a crack team of their own to clear whatever the adventurers missed. Then they turn the place into a hideout or outpost if they want to. They relinquish some of these spaces to the local government as a form of payment. They have lots of people in their employ, from beggars to the “Press Gang” or Rumormongers Guild. Kids that go around to taverns and tell people the news / rumors, at a small price. Mostly true, sometimes false, as benefits the Guild. Locals will also share rumors, but it’s standard to add details or mix them up as a big running prank. The Rumormongers are more reliable, though still controlled by their own interests.
Nice
2e had an excellent book called Den of Thieves. Dragon magazine had 2 issues with a lot of information on Thieves Guild, a lot of detail. I think the book repeats some of that.
Nice! I’ll have to see if I can find those, I know I have the dragon mags as PDF
@BanditsKeep issue 115 Pegasus lady fighting a devil on a dragon on the cover. Den of Thieves is on Drivethrurpg as Pod too. Good stuff. More details than you will probably ever need
@@BanditsKeep 2e also had "Thieves of Lankhmar" which covered Lankhmar's guild in a fair bit of detail.
A campaign I play in is centered around a Thieves Guild which is mafia-like, a lot of Goodfellas/Sopranos type stuff but in a high-magic city. The guild has all classes in it with their own roles.
Awesome
I think one way that a concept of a thieves' guild could function in a non-urban game is to simply have multiple, most likely rival guilds claiming different locations (or even inhabiting the same location). Think of Kurosawa's Yojimbo playing two yakuza gangs against one another, or The Man with No Name in A Fistful of Dollars (which pretty much plagiarised the former). It could even take the form of a gang warfare situation, or opposed mafia families; in a Points of Light kind of game, resources are probably scarce, so it'd make sense for different criminal factions to vie for control of said resources (perhaps one guild controls a stake in, let's say, water distribution, while another runs a racket on farmers who obviously need water - you could have a conflict of interest there between the two). There's a video game that executes this faction rivalry in a very interesting way (that is heavily inspired by old school TTRPGs) called Age of Decadence, which is essentially a Points of Light style campaign where you can have the Thieves Guild, Assassins Guild and the Commerce Guild try to sabotage one another and take control of these last few remnants of civilisation in a post-apocalyptic world (I know I've named three different guilds here, but to me, they all just seem to play off the same trope of a 'Thieves Guild' as a criminal organisation).
Generally, I see the thieves' guild as regulating thievery, which is why they are tolerated by rulers and merchants. They should supply 'insurance receipts' and customer service if protected businesses are targeted. This can put PCs on the inside (a source of jobs and resources), or outside (targeted, or rivals). Guilds would also demarc territory and cooperate across cities.
In the early days I sort of equated them with shady organizations like the ninja and the 'skillful thieves and their captain' from 1001 nights.
I like that
I had a DM introduce me to a thieves guild campaign. Our group went from street waifs auditioning to join the guild to made men and shot callers answering only to the guild master. We had to plain heists and deal with mutiny in the guild while finding out who was the snitch informing the city watch. Good times. It was in 2e AD&D.
Ironically, I think a party of non-thieves works well with a thieves' guild game, since the guild already has plenty of thieves, so non-thieves would be would be in extra demand. Can have heists where there are roles other than just sneaking and thieving, like have the fighter be the muscle, a cleric or magic user to give aid beyond mundane means, so on. One option could be to have missions that are less "do this task" and more "make sure the guy we sent succeeds at his task" which can give a different sort of pressure. Conveniently, it might actually help with the issue I've run into of the party splitting when one character is able to sneak, but the others aren't and have to stick back.
As far as thieves having big scores outside of a city, first thing to come to mind is The Hobbit (ok maybe Erebor is technically a city, just an abandoned one except for the dragon that made it its lair). Morrowind was I think my first exposure to thieves' guilds in a game, and I think some of their quests similarly had you heading out into the boonies to find some McGuffin, and I don't think even Morrowind's "cities" were really all that urban by comparison to how I envision the setting of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser.
9:19 Acquisitions Inc. has a lot of this concept in it. Headquarters will sometimes send you on a mission. It's worth the read, check it out.
i have a bad time trying to imagine a thieves guild in a rural area, similar to a rangers lodge on the city
Thx for the video!
Coins are icing on the cake, rural farmland you are dealing with a bunch of chicken thieves. Raiding someone's smoke house to sale smoke cure meats in village/town for extra pocket change. Athletes/body builders along with active-duty military burns through more calories than chair sitter or slow factory line work.
Historic bad weather food storages and cattle plague creating famine at the same time Germany was having Protestant civil wars.
Accuse your neighbor of heresies and unlive them for their remaining food storage. Cattle/herd raiding is the source of blood feuds from Greece to Scotland.
Not forgetting road and bridge toll tax. Officially you have to go the long way around and pay a given number of toll taxes to maintain the creek/stream bridge and crossing on that guy's road. But I know a short cut shave half a day's travel for a lot less cost to your pocket.
I never have used thieves guilds, but I used plenty of organised crime in my games. And while to some degree I agree, that organised crime is much more active in urban environments, I would say it is also can be present in rural areas, only the focus shifts. Like in a small points of lights setting, the organised crime could be about smuggling, about hiding place for those criminals that had to leave the city because if got to hot for them there, or plenty of other reasons.
Henry Mayhew's London Labour and the London Poor can make for interesting background material, especially the fourth volume dealing with prostitutes, thieves, swindlers, and beggars. Even though it describes mid 19th century London, a lot of the goings-on can easily be transported into a fantasy city.
The last cool campaign I ran involved the thieves guild. Especially in the beginning, and after a year, even then. Though, once the main character had cleared the guild by level 4, they sure as hell came back by level 8 for their cut
I had a setting that split the difference between points of lights and urban -- inhad a number of city states that had been federated into a single nation. Between the states, things could still get hairy -- wont get too into that. Each city had its own theves guild, and they were federated like a shadow of the cities' governments were. On the surface -- assuming you were in the know regarding illicit activities -- the guilds were aligned. They had deals with eachother, there was reciprocity, acknowledgement of membership of other guilds... But at any given time, there could be clandestine actions that the party could be hired, where one guild would act against another, while still claiming to be at peace. Or there would be plots where two guilds might operate collectively in the territory normally controlled by a third guild -- using the party for plausible deniability. In between the cities, there were ruins and lost temples rumored to hold treasure, so a guild might be a quest giver while another acts as antagoist.
And like Leiber, i had ither orgs like the Bravos and the Beggars acting as sister organizations. We re talking layers here. Add to this, the city states would use the guilds as temporary allies to take clandestine actions against one another.
Interesting idea.....i would run a team of Spies/Agents ( thief PCs only ) working as the secret police for a Greek city state.
( ShadowDark Greek Mythos )
Dealing with cultists and monsters to tough for the normal watchmen, keeping tabs on foreign spies in the city, uncovering senators or merchants doing deals with foreign spies for information or illegal trading.
Also dealing with criminal organisations rackets, of all the usual types and maybe a few arcane ones.
Working undercover..... instead of being total Glory Hunters would be an interesting change of pace.
I have been wanting to set up a thieves guild but been unclear what to do with it. What you said at the start really helps me. I’ve never understood why authorities would allow a thieves guild, but if the guild has rules, like no murders or kidnapping, and they will even hunt down anyone who might bring the authorities down on them, that’s enough to look the other way or even give them a license.
While I think guilds of thieves would be few and far between in general, I don't think they are necessarily stuck in the city. I think of "Robin Hood and His Merry Men" as a sort of thieves guild. I tend to use guilds for both thieves and assassins (more rare), with the latter being as (or even sometimes more) interested in information than the taking life. After all, you may need plenty of the former to successfully do the latter without being caught. The thieves guild may be willing to do some similar things as the assassins for less money (and chance of success), while the assassins are unlikely to dabble in "petty" thievery and such like. They do have their pride after all.
The thieves guild in my setting is an orphanage. The orphanage is a front for it. Like Oliver Twist in the desert.
Nice
I want to know why you dont have the thief character class (or rogue, i presume?) In your campaign.
I hardly ever used thieves guilds in the 40+ years I am playing DnD since recently. My players came to Monmurg (World of Greyhawk), a large city build by the (good) Kingdom of Keoland, but conquered by pirates a hundred years ago. In this lawless environment, I placed 'the kartell' (couldn't figure a better name), a losely organisation consisting of a thieves guild, assassins guild, mercenary guild, gambling guild and a prost..ution guild (drugs are legal in Monmurg, so no drugs guild). They pay kind of taxes to the rulers of the city and in return can almost do what they want, sometimes even helped by the authorities.
The plot for my players was that some of the old Keolandish nobility, driven off by the Sea Princes (the name of the pirates), were hiding inside the kartell and now planing the assassination of the ruler Prince Jeon II. They got support from agents of the Scarlet Brotherhood, a far away super powerfull racist monk organisation, who is planning to overthrough the Sea Princes to dominate the entire south of the Flaness (known world). Needless to say that it got rather bloody and nasty, with some of the protagonists purely evil and driven by hate or power or both, and with lots of conspiracy and violence. I turned my players into paranoia with all the sceaming and plotting and spying and ambushes. 😅
That is how I do 'thieves guilds'.
My Assassins Guild is rather obliquely state sanctioned as a proto-espionage organ each Noble House has, akin to how Dune sets out, the "theives guild" form an arm of each guild, but various merchant princes have gangs of thugs and control various small theiving "guilds" that work as spys and such against each other, the lone theif must be very good to survive against both law and guilds but still, mercenary theives have a place being deniable and not in on the secrets. So places and complexity for any PC theif and plenty of recurring NPC action too.
There are a few details that should not be forgotten. Aside from coinage, anything else that is worth stealing in medieval and similarly dated settings, are unique items. There are 2 ways to make money from them. Take them apart as raw materials are not trackable, or sell them back to the original owner. Neither is part of a thief's skills most of the time. That's one part where a thieves guild can come in.
There is also the question of law enforcement. What are the exact duties of the city watch/guard? Are they just there to keep the peace? Protect the property of the noble/rich? How closely are which crimes investigated?
Depending on that a thieves guild becomes more or less necessary for the criminal underworld.
In one novel the city officials knew were the thieves guild was, but it was well outside town. A small cave system about half a day away. While within the city's jurisdiction, any force strong enough to raid it, could be seen miles away. That is, if there weren't spies in the city government. It wasn't just open for thieves, but any sort of ne’er-do-wells. Including as an example, professional players of games of chance, though cheaters were harshly dealt with, more so than in the city. You don't cheat amongst friends. However, players could meet, gauge each others skills and team up to cheat together in the city later.
The same could be done with teams of pick pockets. The movie 'The Great Train Robbery' (1978) had a great scene there. One stumbles to slow the mark down while another seemingly stops him from falling. The third picked the purse and gave the loot to the passing fourth member of the team. It went so smoothly only one noticed it and he was on the lookout for the thief for another job. A moment later the four dispersed into the crowd.
Most fantasy novels show the thief doing his occupation solo, but if they go professional enough to have a thieves guild, why not lower the risk? A burglar could do with a pick pocket that pick pockets a key, makes an imprint before being chased away leaving the original for his partner that chased him away to return the key. Only after the burglary the scene might be remembered as suspicious.
The possibilities are endless as are the ways a GM can use them to create puzzles for the group.
I think it is easier to incorporate thieves guilds with adult players. In my Greyhawk campaign, the guild control all the illegal activities : gambling, prostitution, smuggling, extorsion, bribery. They do it the same way as our modern criminal organisations. Since we are all over 40 around the table, the game is not PG 😅.
Talking about theives' guilds the way you are, makes me think for about DnD 3.5 one of the last supplements put out for it was called Complete Scoundrel, basically for that iteration of the game, the book gave ideas on how to play each class with a more roguish feel. Same thing I see you getting at here, a thieves' guild doesn't have tonbe made up of all rogues/thieves, multiple classes can have their position in such an organization
That sounds cool, I’ll have to Jew my eyes open when I look around the used area of my local gaming shops
First rule of Thieves Guild: "you don't talk about the Thieves Guild!". Everyone knows it is there, in the background, but no one talks openly about it. Just don't ever cross them.
Ran a thieves guild in an AD&D game. Got filtered by the monthly upkeep costs.
Should have been hiring out my services {lockpicking} and stealing from the PCs more.
...Largest score was robbing a noble lady's house of all her fine fur coats {surprisingly expensive}. 🤣😂🤣
Having a party deal with a thieves' guild should be right there with dealing with a church or king/government. Ongoing or sporadic or once only. Every kind of faction should be fair game for an adventure/campaign.
i've seen people get really hung up on it being a thieves' GUILD, and how a GUILD wouldn't work that way, but i've always thought the name is just an ironic joke
All Thieves want to work alone, each his own way.
To create a Thieves Guild ... Someone/Something strong want to make it to obtain controle over many littles local Thieves as employer (who do not keep all money for themes).
Or it's a big mafia, a familly.
Yes i think about "how to create a such thing".
Blades in the Dark is centered around playin a bunch of scoundrels and does a great job of showin how you can't make moves in an established city without shittin on someone elses shoes. Buildin your crew's reputation and turf, dealin with havin members in jail, avoidin Blue Coats while angerin powerful people and bein confined to a large city, all feels like some solid Thieves Guild material to muse over.
Otherwise, Shadow Run, Cyber Punk, Vampire VtM, .. etc.
Sounds like the thieves guild should fill a niche analogous to organized crime.
Indeed!
Therw also a book call complete book of thief
Nice, thanks!
You say you don't play high level in these old games. What games do you play the most in your own campaigns?
I never could get a DM to get into using the thieves guild in their campaign. Try as I might they would just wave me aside, perhaps answer a question or two about something I might ask the thieves guild about and move on. Sort of sad really because I mostly played thieves and feel that I missed out on a good part of the "game".
Did they not exists in the world or was the DM had waving it?
@BanditsKeep I believe that they just didn't want to deal with it. Even though they could have used it to force me to pay dues and even run jobs for them.
Love me a good thieves guild; two or more are better, if the city's large enough... heh.
Rival gangs in a sense
@BanditsKeep I do similar things with guilds if the city is large enough
@@BanditsKeep Have you ever read R.A. Salvatore's The Halfling's Gem? It showcases an example of a big city guild with it's house wizard; assorted thugs, skilled rogues, and assassins, etc.
'course, half the time when I listen to one of your videos it inspires me (or drives me) to make one of my own on the topic. 'course I give you credit for being inspiring.
I think the subject should come in two parts:
1. Full on, large city Thieves Guilds (Cartels, clubs, whatever), with all the upsides an downsides there of, and...
2. Ideas for non-guild thieves guilds...
For example: The land of Bree is too small to have even a cadre of a guild, but it has locals like Bill Ferny, whose shady rep can be used in-game. Or perhaps The Darling family who were 'trouble' for Mayberry every now and then.
Most communities have 'those guys!' a family or loose collection of oddballs who are not quite out-right bandits, nor are they sophisticated thieves, but fall somewhere just short of such.
In the past I have used similar NPCs whenever I could, more than once. So if the PC's pass through Town B, and during one encounter, bump heads with Andy Gravelbagger - something minor. Then, perhaps several sessions later the PC's once again pass through or visit Town B, only to have an encounter with Mr. Gravelbagger and/or, 2-4 of his cousins... How these encounters pan out, are up the the PC's, of course. Sometimes knowing someone with a shady rep in a region has values for the right PC(s).
From my perspective only thieves belong to a Thieves Guild. The "Guild" is the fore runner of a Union. A plumber wouldn't be a member of the Electrician's Union. In Europe the merchant classes formed Guilds to maintain standards and quality while giving them a larger voice in the market. Anyway, there are all sorts of underground criminal organizations that can be made up of various classes and skills but a Thieves Guild is just for Thieves IMHO.
Typical Thieves Guilds would include homeless beggers, street buskers (minstrels), chimeny sweeps, lamp lighters, orphans (local orphanage being the training center for young members) anyone who is basically invisible to the average citizen.
Interesting--For a thieves guild to really work you need to work out what would constitute illegal and illicit trade. I'm not sure gambling would be a problem or a good thing for thieves guilds to be involved with in general, except that it might be a good way to mask income from their other more nefarious sources. Sure, they can be involved in all kinds of what we in the modern world would consider to be vice oriented businesses, because that's an easy way to turn a gold piece. But you have to ask--why would those things be illegal at all?
For my money (pun intended), in worlds where there are multiple gods, I would think criminality would come down to crimes of violence and crimes of property. Smuggling, evading taxation, coining, vandalizing rival businesses, etc. would be crimes of property and possibly violence as well. Black market goods that are being sold at prices that undercut other local guilds might well be something a thieves guild would be involved in. If slavery is illegal, an underground slave trade might be something that a thieves guild would be involved in.
Season 2 of HBO's Rome had a good example of what sanctioned thieves guilds might have looked like. Prostitution was legal. Slavery was legal. Gambling was legal. They ran massive protection rackets in the poor quarters of the city and the bosses who were under the thumb of and answered to the patricians and ruling parties of Rome. And each little guild owned it's own part of the low quarters.
And would most people in a thieves guild be a classed thief? My guess is no. A classed thief is a specialist who gets called in when discretion and delicacy is required. Most people in a thieves guild will probably be thugs or fighters of some kind. You're never going to win a gang war with classed thieves. They have a D6 hit die, a miserable attack table, no magic---they do have a back stab. But that's a one and done thing and if you don't kill your mark in all likelihood your in really hot water. You don't need a classed thief to go shake down a local fruit stand vendor for protection money. You don't need a classed thief to ambush or protect a caravan--that would be a waste of their talents.
When thinking of thieves guilds and where the class, thief, fits into the world of adventuring this is where my mind goes.
The Roman client-patron relations are fun. I liked how Byzantium had a mix of sport supporter clubs, political machines, street gangs. They are ties that stretch up and down through every level.
My mates used the Roman street gangs for the Moon cities. The gangs fight for control of streets and function as the closest thing to governing bodies at a street level. The aristocracy has their own household guards and sponsor some gangs. There is an official secret police, but they care about crimes against the city and the satrap.
The thieves guild - The Hellhounds - are one of the three major factions in my current DCC campaign. They have the support of the lower classes, as well as a few developing cults.
The PCs dont know who to support of the 3 factions, but know the hellhounds are bad news... But theyre afraid that if they oppose the Hellhounds directly, they'll suffer. Its created a very fun situation.
Thieves guilds can be a VERY intimidating enemy in an urban campaign!
I use Thieves Guilds all the time in 5e. The criminal contacts from backgrounds is a perfect example. I also use them for assassination quests. A clever Thieves Guild could send good characters on quests to destroy rivals, or frame good people without the characters knowing. I will also use Thieves Cant as graffiti to mark locations of safe houses or marks.
My players always seem to crave a thieves' guild. They think it's just the coolest thing! If there's a rogue in the party, if I don't include a guild of some kind, I'll be feeling the heat.
Never join the guild! They will want a percent of your "proceeds" ahem.
In exchange for services rendered I hope 😉