Repertoire: The BEST Rachmaninoff Symphony Cycles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2022
- Rachmaninoff wrote only three symphonies, but their reputation and popularity vary widely. For that reason, record companies have been reluctant to package them together as a set, and you may want to get them individually. Still, here are the cycles that feature performances of consistently fine quality across all three works.
Typo Note: The de Waart cycle is on Decca/Eloquence (missing an "n" there in the video subtitle). - เพลง
Please keep talking about CDs, Dave. If some other people don't want them, that means there's more left for us! I much appreciated this fine talk.
Wow! You weren’t kidding, Slatkin with Detroit. Brilliant in every way! Thanks for the heads up 👍
I'm always pleased when you, or any other critic, acknowledge that a great conductor can get first tier performances from less than first tier orchestras. As a longtime Slatkin fan, I agree that he's one of the best, no matter the ensemble. He's nearing 80 now, but is still quite active and long may he remain so.
Great review, Dave,, thank you
Al fin. Lo que estaba esperando.
My first cycle was Ashkenazy and I still like it. But because of your recommandation I bought the Naxos Slatkin recordings a while ago. Now my favourite cycle. Thank you ! In october I have the opportunity to hear Slatkin for the first time with the NDR Radiophilharmonie in Hannover: Dvorak 9, Saint-Saens cello concerto 1 and „Double Play“ by Cindy McTee. Greetings from Northern Germany
D
Ah Dave -- many thanks for your fine commentary on Rachmaninoff Symphony cycles. So glad to hear the you put Slatkin and the Detroit Symphony at the top. I heard them do all of the symphonies at Orchestra Hall along with the Symphonic Dances. The ending of the latter was absolutely shattering with the loud strike of the tam-tam allowed to slowly fade into nothing. All were stunning.
This repertoire talk was particularly relevant, since I recently was "in the market" for a new Rachmaninoff cycle, prompted, in part by our disagreement about the merits (or demerits) of Ormandy's "Symphonic Dances." I wanted a cycle that included all the important shorter works. I already had Slatkin/Vox (my first pass over this terrain), Ormandy (always a favorite( and Ashkenazy (strong performances, and he includes "The Bells," but the sonics are too aggressively bright. I had a very hard time finding anything that looked promising and was affordable. As luck would have it, I decided to take a chance on the Jansons box, and the fates were kind on this occasion. Jansons had a unique rapport with the St. Petersburg orchestra on these occasions. EVerything is stunningly played. And the "Symphonic Dances" are magnificent, putting both Ormandy and Ashkenazy in the shade (for that work, though I still enjoy Ormandy's "sensuous" approach). I also wanted to say how much I agreed with your view of the Third Symphony as proto-modernist. That could also be said for the "Symphonic Dances." It seems Rachmaninoff was beginning to sound more like Prokofiev than Tchaikovsky. Many thanks for a splendid review.
Agree on both the Slatkin cycles, have been enjoying both, the St. Louis for quite some time. The Vox LP's for Slatkin's St. Louis Rachmaninoff boxes were surprisingly good, and helped change my mind about the label. In a slightly related note, the final moments of Slatkin's St. Louis Symphonic Dances were a revelation. The final Tam-Tam thwack was so powerful it really (and finally) made me appreciate this amazing percussion instrument.
Dave - your recent video on Slatkin's Naxos Rachmaninov cycle prompted me to go back and look at this video. A little note for our community here. The 3 Litton Virgin symphonies are available on an Erato set in Amazon Digital for $7.99 for the complete download. And another set for $10.99 download has all of his symphonies and the typical symphonic poems (isle of the dead etc.). Dave. What a video!!!!
Ormandy's stereo recordings on Columbia was released as follows
Nr 2 in 1960
Nr 1 in 1967
Nr 3 in 1968.
The uncut version of Nr 2 on RCA was released 1975
I would also like to add that all recordings in this talk are available at streaming services .
💯 agree about Litton's cycle, I really love a lot of the things he does with the phrasing, especially in the 2nd. I also enjoyed Kogan's so thanks for mentioning that. De Waart's cycle is worth recommending alongside the Piano Concerto cycle with Kocsis, a very good all-round set! The sonics of Petrenko's set are good but I found them all to be a bit pedestrian, I need to have a relisten to the 3rd based on this video. I had all of Maazel's in a 2-cd set, I really wanted to like them but I just found them too straight and you are obviously spot on about the sound quality, perhaps that affected it. Slatkin, Ashkenazy, Ormandy, Jansons - agree. Oh how I love Svetlanov's set. I also have an earlier Melodiya set and it is interesting to compare the two (aside from the sonic!) to see how his interpretations evolved over the years. And this set from the mid-90s is available on Spotify in the UK at least! I cannot believe I missed Slatkin on Naxos, going to download right now.
Other cycles that come to mind are (some do not meet the criterion of "no weak links" before you shout at me):
Noseda/BBC Philharmonic/Chandos - well-played, good sound, mildly interesting performances
Otaka/BBC National Orchestra of Wales/Nimbus - again, well-played and well-recorded considering the label and age, fairly straight performances
Pletnev!(Assume you missed him deliberately ☺️)/Russian National Orchestra/DG - dull (I like it when you have the worst and the best)
Polyansky/Russian State Orchestra/Chandos - slow and dull, well-recorded though
Shui/Singapore Symphony/BIS - fairly new recording, great sound but boring performances
Ashkenazy/Philharmonia/Orchestra's own label - better than his Decca recordings in some ways
Hughes/RSNO/BIS - why did they bother with this?
Another great video, thanks Dave.
Have the Leonard Slatkin Saint Louis Symphony recording of Rachmaninov's First Symphony on an even more budgeted label called EXCELSIOR (Classic Gold). It's a re-issue of the VOX recording. Outstanding performance and so is the work coupled with the symphony, the CAPRICE BOHEMIEN, Opus 12. Yeah, the Opus 12, the work before Rachmaninov's let down with the first symphony, Opus 13. Great talk as always, Dave...............
The Previn cycle is available in a box with the Lugansky Piano Concertos (conducted by Sakari Oramo) and other piano works, as well as the larger more expensive box set. 8CDs on Warner Classics, it's available on Amazon UK still for about £20. Sadly thanks to what's going on here in the UK that's about $22🤣
With you on the Ashkenazy 1st! He drags us through sonic purgatory in a great way! Got to part company with you on his Symphonic Dances. It is alternately melancholic, light, heavy, dark, swift, and majestic - Ashkenazy captures the full range of musical emotions in a very lush way.
Sorry, but no--he doesn't. At least we can both enjoy that 1st.
The Canyon Classics box is the same 1995 Svetlanov recording as the Warner Box. The former is very difficult to find (it can be downloaded on iTunes) but the latter is still available in a few places.
Thanks for this video. I didn't know about Svetlanov's 2nd cycle. A scroll thru Amazon-US turned up an offer from Amazon-Japan of the Exton 4-CD set (w/Symphonic Variations, The Rock, etc.) for $38.61, & free shipping. They had four copies...and now they have three. :)
That's a pretty good deal!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yup--and I thought some of your viewers might be interested, which is why I posted about it.
I really liked your comment that Russia had no particular 'authentic stylistic tradition' when it comes to Rachmaninov. Back in the late '60s -- early '70's, when the world was young and I was first listening to Russian composers, I kept reading that the 'Real Thing' was to be found on Melodiya. Only later did I realize that that was not necessarily a RUSSIAN sound (as in Imperial Russia), but rather a SOVIET sound...and one at least partly due to cheap instruments and electronics. For Tchaikovsky I turned to Koussevitzky--still my first choice...and then broadened out to Mengelberg...Silvestri...Karajan...
For Prokofiev and Shostakovitch the 'Soviet Style' seemed just right, totally authentic
As for Rachmaninov...well, you'd think the 'Grand Imperial Style' would suit him right down to the ground. But Rachmaninov (like R. Strauss) balanced the lushness of his own music with lean, resolutely unindulgent performances. (Why do we never talk about Rachmaninov's performance of his own 3rd Symphony? Surely THAT's a good stylistic guide!)
I have versions by Ormandy, Svetlanov, Rohdevensky (spelling?) and Previn. My favourite is Ormandy.
I've heard Ashkenazy but found his reading of No. 1 a mite "turgid" for my taste. I'm tempted to add
Slatkin/Naxos on your recommendation.
If you're not wedded to physical media, the Litton cycle (briefly mentioned at the top of the video) is available as a retail FLAC download from Erato. It's cheap, too!
So many good recommendations here.
Agree on the Ormandy and prefer the RCA #2 which from Sony Japan comes with wonderful Scriabin symphonies.
Thanks!
Thank you very much for your thoughtfulness!
I am most partial to the 3rd Symphony. It is in the same company as his 4th Concerto (Revised version), in that it sits between Romanticism and modernism, a true Neo Romantic masterpiece.
You kept me in suspense whether Slatkin/Detroit was going to be on your list...
While I remember when quality or lack thereof were unfairly coupled with price category, in my experience the Nonesuch low-mid price label was always associated with high quality in repertoire and performance.
Thank you David for another excellent talk. One cycle that you did not mention and really surprised me is by Alexander Sladkovsky and the Tartarstan National Symphony Orchestra. Have you heard it?
Yes.
What do you think of it as a cycle?
@@timothygoode764 It's good but not terribly interesting.
Litton's cycle is pretty easy to find on Erato for streaming or download.
My favourite Rachmaninov Symphony is 2nd Symphony. There is is bone of contention whether to add the last note of the 1st movement with or without a timpani stroke on a low E natural note. I prefer with which Rachmaninov never intended. Just my opinion, of course
We have had this discussion already, extensively. There is no "bone of contention." The timpani stroke should not be there, period. A conductor may elect to do it, but there's no question about what Rachmaninoff wrote.
Both Ashkenazy and De Waart did a second Rachmaninoff cycle, both for Exton (which is strange). What's your opinion about those?
Forgettable, especially the Ashkenazy.
Could you give me your thoughts on the later Ashkenazy cycles? He has later cycles from Sydney and a Philharmonia cycle on Signum. The Decca Concertgebouw cycle is fine and dandy, but I find that the redos feel more bedded-in.
Could you also tell me your thoughts on Gergiev's LSO cycle, Petrenko/s Liverpool recordings and the BIS set with Lan Shui and the SSO?
Did you watch the video?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, but only briefly. I didn't catch some of the nuances of your talk. However, when I watched it more closely, I see you mentioned some of the cycles I asked about. I thought you didn't have the chance to display them.
I see you mentioned Ashkenazy's Decca cycle, but I was wondering what you thought of his redos.
Also, I was wondering what you thought of the BIS cycle with the SSO and Lan Shui, and also Noseda's Chandos series. I see you haven't mentioned these.
@@yipengli1072 Ashkenazy has been discussed in these comments. For the others, you can find reviews of individual releases at ClassicsToday.com.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes, I see you've mentioned Ashkenazy's Decca series in this video. I was wondering if you had spared a thought for his subsequent redos before recording this video.
@@yipengli1072 Yes, I did, and as I said, they were discussed in the comments (or at least one of them was). I find them unnecessary and irrelevant.
I just had a question regarding his Second Symphony. In the second movement (the Scherzo), why would he introduce that beautiful unearthly cantabile tune and yet he never develops it? I know the movement is in Rondo, but then again, who was going to prevent him from having a longer B section than it currently does? It's like he's wasting that tune for the sake of its simple introduction as if he was forced to have a B section. I can't get over it as I want to hear more of it.
I'm not a musicologist so I never understood why but as someone who listens to music for the sake of it, I really want to know the answer to it, does he maybe somehow use the ideas in that tune somewhere else in the symphony that goes unnoticed by an uneducated ear? The only other catchy tune I know of that goes undeveloped like that is Tchaikovsky's introduction theme to his first piano concerto, but then again you could say that the rest of the first movement is all, sort of, still related to that theme. Something that never happens for Rachmaninoff's cantabile tune.
There is no answer. It's merely a lyrical contrast to the other material in the movement. Enjoy it when you hear it, and that's it!
Naxos are releasing a Slatkin/Detroit box set in March ‘23
These Canyon Classics/Exton recordings are so hard to get, it's annoying. I saw the Svetlanov Rachmaninoff cycle on Amazon France for like 85€. I recently got his Tchaikovsky studio for 50€ which is still manageable, but 85€ is pretty rough.
Yes! Rach 1st FTW
I didn’t know Svetlanov had done them again. Love the first set with the USSR Symphony Orchestra but, as you say David, Melodiya paint-peeling sonics.
For me, Rachmaninoff works two ways: playing down the fervour and emotion for the sake of structure, inner voices and balance, as in Litton’s cycle. Or else taking the brakes off and having a no-holds-barred wallow, just about losing it in the climaxes, as with Svetlanov.
Interested you didn’t mention Previn, whose RCA cycle with the LSO got raves in the British press. I find it a bit ramshackle. Rachmaninoff isn’t the most cohesive of composers and needs help from conductor to hold it together, which I don’t think Previn provides.
I do discuss Previn, but his cycle was on EMI, not RCA.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Apologies. A lifelong habit of skipping intros used to get me into trouble in exam days, and persists. I didn’t know you also referred to the Litton cycle, and completely agree with your comments.
My Previn Rachmaninoff 3 with the LSO is certainly on RCA, an lp bought for £1.89 back in my UK days. How it shifted from RCA to EMI I’ve no idea. Around that time Previn seemed to be recording both for EMI (Walton’s Belshazzar) and RCA (VW symphonies and Walton 1).
@@johnstoddart3962 I don't think it shifted. He did it twice.
why don‘t you like Ashkenazy’s symphonic dances, I find then extremely powerful, specially the last movement.
They are too quick, especially in the first movement, lacking in sharpness of accent, with missing detail at the climaxes, and entirely too casual for me. Have a look at my video on the work and try some other versions if you can. th-cam.com/video/ZCya8CBDn58/w-d-xo.html
Have you heard the Ashkenazy set on Exton with the Sydney Symphony? It's a very convenient set because of all the smaller works included. As to Dutoit in Philadelphia: I enjoy those disks completely. They are far from horrible. And the Slatkin/Detroit recordings are ruined by less than ideal sound. Too much orchestral detail is buried; the St. Louis recordings were sonically better.
Sorry but that is a very weird view of Rachmaninoff. Of course it's your call, and enjoy what you wish, but Dutoit is pretty awful, and second Ashkenazy is irrelevant and nowhere near as well played as the first batch, and the Naxos recordings lose nothing in detail. That last is a fact.
If there is a video of the worst Rachmaninoff symphony cycles, I bet Pletnev and Gergiev would be in there
I keep watching Dave's videos hoping that one of these days he's going to turn around and hit that big gong after giving somebody a terrible review. Is this wishful thinking on my behalf?
Done it many times, for many reasons!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Great, I'll be watching for the next one! 😁😁
"decadent doom and Russian gloom" 🤣