Yes there are fewer widebody captains but also there are fewer 717/220 captains too. So let's assume the 12 year captain is flying narrowbody (737/320) at Delta. The 2023 rate for a NB 12 year captain was $341-343/hr. In 2024 it is $360. Assuming the 1000 hr multiplier (as an average!) that is $340,000 for the average 12 year captain in 2023. That $279k was way low and we aren't even talking about profit sharing, per diem etc... Lets be honest most 12 year captains at delta are clearing $400k-500k+ easily with just a basic schedule/vacation and even a handful of hard-charging gamers have hit $1m.
I feel very fortunate to have done ten years in the Marine Corps, 2165 Hornet hours over three back-to-back flying tours and then 28 years at United. It has been the best of both worlds.
Fellow Veteran Thank You for your Service SIR ! I salute you for being a Marine . I don't think I could've made it in the Marines . I know you did't have it easy as a Marine . Enjoy your retirement .
I retired in November last at 440 and started in summer of 1987 at 6850. Lost a few numbers (465) when we bought Air Cal and more adjustments with TWA and US Air. Bottom line is, Seniority, like airspeed, is life!
Wambat has got it figured out. I enjoyed what I did in the US Navy as an A-6 plane captain but I didn’t like the extra THINGS like barracks cleaning for 3 months before coming to the line shack to become a plane captain or flight line watches at midnight to 4 am.
Here is the thing, you can take two pilots with the same exact skill set and have VERY different earnings over their total career earnings. Bankruptcy, lucky mergers, good times, bad times etc. Very important to remember when pilots switch companies for whatever reason, you start at the bottom...unlike other industry norms.
Nope. Airlines are unionized and it's 100% seniority. You could be a captain with 10,000 hrs and start over at the bottom of the list at another airline.
Love this video . Even though it’s about pilots and income , the topics, points of concern, work & life balance are incredible. This should be an expanded show for sure . I can’t take vacation without being made to feel guilty or myself feeling guilty , and that’s bad planning on my end for staff . Comparing military vs Delta pilots vs corporate airline captains , etc would also be extremely interesting. Well done guys
I read that article. It really didn't do a great job addressing things like line and trip density, rigs or open time rules, which are where we make a lot of our money. According to SWAPA, the average CornDog flies 108 credit TFP (Trips For Pay) a month, which converts to about 91 hours credit pay with an average of 16 days off. A lot of that is due to our trip density, trip and duty rigs and our open time rules. At that 108 average Joe credit, a 12 year Capt would gross a little over 34k/mo or 410k/yr which seems about in line with the Big 3. (Before B-Fund/Profit sharing etc obviously) Our 12 year FO pay would put it at 287k for that average.
Wombat is 100% correct. When you get treated so poorly for so long, money doesn't matter. There is a company I used to work for...off and on for 20 years. The amount of money it would take for me to go back there has not yet been printed. Don't know that it ever can be
On the military side, the money isn't the core problem, and DoD will never be able to compete with the Airlines on salary or Seniority. DoD take notes, listen to Wombat and Gonky. If you want to fix retention it starts with allowing military pilots to actually fly more, taking care of personnel especially during peacetime. Restore accountability, start rooting out crappy leaders, instead of always focusing your wrath at Junior Officers. If you make the military experience even somewhat enjoyable, more people would stay in, if you make it miserable they will leave, especially when comparitively Airline life is so much better.
It is in a spiral downwards, too few pilots already squeezing the ones who are still in...they can not even turn up the volume of the recruit and the training numbers because there are no trainers...
20 years in the Air Force and yeah my peers are seniority 7,000 while I sit at 15,000. But I wouldn’t trade the last 10 years of my Air Force career for 10 years of airline flying. This airline career, while lucrative, serves no purpose other than to make money. I flew in every assignment for 20 years. Quality of life is there if you look for it. I also now enjoy working 5 days a month on reserve and not paying $1k/mo for health insurance.
I was over 500k my last few years at Southwest. That includes the B plan contribution and profit sharing. You have to know how to play the system. But it is a hustle culture environment. The don’t be a douche thing you talked about in the past, it really effected getting hired back in the day. A lot of the active duty commanding officers didn’t make it past that benchmark.
100% agree with the the work/life balance airlines provide. I am still active military and cannot wait to discharge and start chasing seniority. Military wonders why it can't retain people...
It's all about the work rules and soft time. At my airline I bid reserve and shift my schedule to intentionally (try) not fly, but then make myself available to fly a trip or two a month on my days off at double time ($700+/hr). Easy to consistently credit 100+ hrs a month, but only block 30.
QOL IS KING! I would be inclined to stay if they offered $0 in bonuses and instead spent that money on a civilian to do the jobs that pull me away from the things that matter (family, personal interests, etc.). Great discussion.
I tried to edit my last post but it wouldn’t let me. In 2023 and on 5th year pay as a NB FO, I made right around $225k before the contractual back pay. Most of my months were in the 90-100 hr credit range (still getting 15-17 days off per month). A few months were min guarantee on reserve. What does this mean? A captain on 12 year pay in making a hell of a lot more than $279k.
Everyone’s different for sure. Personally, as long as it’s enough to live comfortably, I couldn’t care less about the money. I love flying tactical aircraft. But I want to be an airline pilot because I want a job where I’m just a pilot and nothing else. And it’s become painfully obvious I’ll never get that in the Marine Corps.
You guys are forgetting the direct contribution the company gives in retirement. 17% among the legacy, vacation, soft pay. It’s complex, however, Most legacy captains are pushing 30-35k a month, easily.
@@AA-or4dt I’m new to the aviation industry so please forgive me. I thought you had start over in seniority once you upgraded to Captain. So in other words you would a first year captain from my understanding.
@ nope. In most companies your salary is dependent on how many years you’ve been there. There is a Captains and First Officers pay scale. There is one seniority list that everyone is on. You can have a First Officer who is more senior than a Captain.
Does wombat know what an average is? The way he’s answering sounds kinda jank. But there is such a wide spectrum of salaries. Yeah so we want an average to account for that range.
Then you get the old CAs riding jumpseat bragging their on $600k PA forgetting that they are a management pilot and a year off retirement. Makes the FOs at regionals dream big though.
I'm curious how the decline in airline routes is effecting pilot earnings. I guess if you're paid based on flight hours, I assume pilots, on average, are earning less?
I’m a WB FO at a major. And ex AF. Agreed- reserve and line holder are different critters. When a lineholder, I work 9- 16 days a month depending upon the productivity of the trips. On reserve, I hope to never get called and “work” all month and never go in.
and funny thing is while these pilots are paid a lot for safety of 300 people. people responsible for the lives of millions, are paid substantially less.
QC at drug and pharma companies. People in charge of nuclear safety and nuclear technicians operating power plants. Same goes for the people engineering the power plants before they are built and brought online. People responsible for food and health safety. Everyone I've just listed usually falls into the 50k Salary Bracket. @@CWLemoine
It will be a great day for everyone (airline/passenger/stock investor) except pilot themself when Ai auto pilot become the norm. perhaps need one human in front as a emergency backup! the amount of saving and safety will be off the roof!!
Wombat is trying his hardest to hide that he’s on half a million a year.
Wombats got it right
Plus an OF 😌
He was on that computer trying to be ignored...
Yes there are fewer widebody captains but also there are fewer 717/220 captains too. So let's assume the 12 year captain is flying narrowbody (737/320) at Delta. The 2023 rate for a NB 12 year captain was $341-343/hr. In 2024 it is $360. Assuming the 1000 hr multiplier (as an average!) that is $340,000 for the average 12 year captain in 2023. That $279k was way low and we aren't even talking about profit sharing, per diem etc... Lets be honest most 12 year captains at delta are clearing $400k-500k+ easily with just a basic schedule/vacation and even a handful of hard-charging gamers have hit $1m.
I feel very fortunate to have done ten years in the Marine Corps, 2165 Hornet hours over three back-to-back flying tours and then 28 years at United. It has been the best of both worlds.
Fellow Veteran Thank You for your Service SIR ! I salute you for being a Marine . I don't think I could've made it in the Marines . I know you did't have it easy as a Marine . Enjoy your retirement .
I retired in November last at 440 and started in summer of 1987 at 6850. Lost a few numbers (465) when we bought Air Cal and more adjustments with TWA and US Air. Bottom line is, Seniority, like airspeed, is life!
When did Wombat get elected to Congress?
And we have exactly those retention issues in the Australian defence force too. Well articulated episode 👌
Wambat has got it figured out. I enjoyed what I did in the US Navy as an A-6 plane captain but I didn’t like the extra THINGS like barracks cleaning for 3 months before coming to the line shack to become a plane captain or flight line watches at midnight to 4 am.
Here is the thing, you can take two pilots with the same exact skill set and have VERY different earnings over their total career earnings. Bankruptcy, lucky mergers, good times, bad times etc. Very important to remember when pilots switch companies for whatever reason, you start at the bottom...unlike other industry norms.
Is that just in America? I thought they would take into account your logbook?
Nope. Airlines are unionized and it's 100% seniority. You could be a captain with 10,000 hrs and start over at the bottom of the list at another airline.
Love this video . Even though it’s about pilots and income , the topics, points of concern, work & life balance are incredible.
This should be an expanded show for sure .
I can’t take vacation without being made to feel guilty or myself feeling guilty , and that’s bad planning on my end for staff .
Comparing military vs Delta pilots vs corporate airline captains , etc would also be extremely interesting.
Well done guys
I read that article. It really didn't do a great job addressing things like line and trip density, rigs or open time rules, which are where we make a lot of our money. According to SWAPA, the average CornDog flies 108 credit TFP (Trips For Pay) a month, which converts to about 91 hours credit pay with an average of 16 days off. A lot of that is due to our trip density, trip and duty rigs and our open time rules. At that 108 average Joe credit, a 12 year Capt would gross a little over 34k/mo or 410k/yr which seems about in line with the Big 3. (Before B-Fund/Profit sharing etc obviously) Our 12 year FO pay would put it at 287k for that average.
Wombat is 100% correct. When you get treated so poorly for so long, money doesn't matter. There is a company I used to work for...off and on for 20 years. The amount of money it would take for me to go back there has not yet been printed. Don't know that it ever can be
On the military side, the money isn't the core problem, and DoD will never be able to compete with the Airlines on salary or Seniority.
DoD take notes, listen to Wombat and Gonky. If you want to fix retention it starts with allowing military pilots to actually fly more, taking care of personnel especially during peacetime. Restore accountability, start rooting out crappy leaders, instead of always focusing your wrath at Junior Officers.
If you make the military experience even somewhat enjoyable, more people would stay in, if you make it miserable they will leave, especially when comparitively Airline life is so much better.
It is in a spiral downwards, too few pilots already squeezing the ones who are still in...they can not even turn up the volume of the recruit and the training numbers because there are no trainers...
20 years in the Air Force and yeah my peers are seniority 7,000 while I sit at 15,000. But I wouldn’t trade the last 10 years of my Air Force career for 10 years of airline flying. This airline career, while lucrative, serves no purpose other than to make money. I flew in every assignment for 20 years. Quality of life is there if you look for it. I also now enjoy working 5 days a month on reserve and not paying $1k/mo for health insurance.
I was over 500k my last few years at Southwest. That includes the B plan contribution and profit sharing. You have to know how to play the system. But it is a hustle culture environment.
The don’t be a douche thing you talked about in the past, it really effected getting hired back in the day. A lot of the active duty commanding officers didn’t make it past that benchmark.
100% agree with the the work/life balance airlines provide. I am still active military and cannot wait to discharge and start chasing seniority.
Military wonders why it can't retain people...
Don't try to stop Wombat when he's on a roll. Lay down some more of that truth, bro.
It's all about the work rules and soft time. At my airline I bid reserve and shift my schedule to intentionally (try) not fly, but then make myself available to fly a trip or two a month on my days off at double time ($700+/hr). Easy to consistently credit 100+ hrs a month, but only block 30.
The airlines new contracts are a game changer in pay.So much better then flying in the military.Just retired after 38 years at a major.
It’s all quality of life
That's the draw to airlines like F9. Most nights in your own bed and maybe only 2 or 3 overnight trips a month.
What website is that article from ?
$279k/year at Delta. That sounds low. I know pilots at United making $300k
It's way low. Trust me.
QOL IS KING! I would be inclined to stay if they offered $0 in bonuses and instead spent that money on a civilian to do the jobs that pull me away from the things that matter (family, personal interests, etc.).
Great discussion.
I saw a commercial airliner take off and I didn’t make anything.
I tried to edit my last post but it wouldn’t let me. In 2023 and on 5th year pay as a NB FO, I made right around $225k before the contractual back pay. Most of my months were in the 90-100 hr credit range (still getting 15-17 days off per month). A few months were min guarantee on reserve. What does this mean? A captain on 12 year pay in making a hell of a lot more than $279k.
Find the hours and best pay as to afford an ARCA car and let's go racing!
Hell yeah!
Seniority is everything..once money gets to a certain point its all about lifestyle
Narrow body CA pay at the big 3 with 73 hrs a month is $301k right in the middle of the pay scale.
I’m an FO on year two pay at a LCC and I’m averaging 15-18k a month 😂
Everyone’s different for sure. Personally, as long as it’s enough to live comfortably, I couldn’t care less about the money. I love flying tactical aircraft. But I want to be an airline pilot because I want a job where I’m just a pilot and nothing else. And it’s become painfully obvious I’ll never get that in the Marine Corps.
You guys are forgetting the direct contribution the company gives in retirement. 17% among the legacy, vacation, soft pay. It’s complex, however, Most legacy captains are pushing 30-35k a month, easily.
It's absolute annual salary AND hourly rate (ie flexibility)
Military life is a young person's game. Once we gwt older and have our own family the appeal wears off real quick.
Wombat always trying to start an argument lol
Last 5 seconds...Most important comment made....
Lotta money for semi retired heavy machine operators.
I am nominating Wombat for President - 2024. Gonky, can we use your garage for our first regional campaign office.
SLI’s make money hand over fist with the training we’re doing. 12 year CA on a NB is cruising into the 300k range.
If your a 5 year first officer then get promoted to captain are you now a 5 year captain? Or are you a 1 year captain?
5 year captain
@@AA-or4dtWhat???
@@booneboone9705 it means your on the 5th pay point
@@AA-or4dt I’m new to the aviation industry so please forgive me. I thought you had start over in seniority once you upgraded to Captain. So in other words you would a first year captain from my understanding.
@ nope. In most companies your salary is dependent on how many years you’ve been there. There is a Captains and First Officers pay scale. There is one seniority list that everyone is on. You can have a First Officer who is more senior than a Captain.
wombat is my spirit animal...
Does wombat know what an average is? The way he’s answering sounds kinda jank. But there is such a wide spectrum of salaries. Yeah so we want an average to account for that range.
Then you get the old CAs riding jumpseat bragging their on $600k PA forgetting that they are a management pilot and a year off retirement. Makes the FOs at regionals dream big though.
Wombat just trying to finish his very reasonable sentences.
Maybe one day I can get that ATP certificate and make more than $15/hour. 😔
I'm curious how the decline in airline routes is effecting pilot earnings. I guess if you're paid based on flight hours, I assume pilots, on average, are earning less?
Pilots are earning more now than ever.
@@CWLemoineBecause time is money...
@@MACE1-1 airlines are just undermanned and more efficient, so pilots fly more to keep up. With the higher pay rates, they’re earning more.
That is a crazy amount of money. at 280K USD that's almost 500k AUD, or ~6.66x what I make working in IT.
Good discussion
Wombatˋs a G
no one is working 4-5 days for 13 grand. wombat is correct
True, but a widebody FO on short call could work a lot less for a lot more.
I’m a WB FO at a major. And ex AF. Agreed- reserve and line holder are different critters. When a lineholder, I work 9- 16 days a month depending upon the productivity of the trips. On reserve, I hope to never get called and “work” all month and never go in.
Wombat being so dodgy...haha. The hourlyx1000 is a good ballpark average when you factor per diem, 401k contributions, soft pay, etc.
These financial topic has not great proof, I guess. I think rarely 50% is a correct, but flipside 50% is a rumor.
Wow. That was a strangely accurate description of a submariner's life, too.
and funny thing is while these pilots are paid a lot for safety of 300 people. people responsible for the lives of millions, are paid substantially less.
Who?
QC at drug and pharma companies.
People in charge of nuclear safety and nuclear technicians operating power plants.
Same goes for the people engineering the power plants before they are built and brought online.
People responsible for food and health safety.
Everyone I've just listed usually falls into the 50k Salary Bracket.
@@CWLemoine
Cool. Airline pay is not based on the safety of "300 people" alone.
It will be a great day for everyone (airline/passenger/stock investor) except pilot themself when Ai auto pilot become the norm. perhaps need one human in front as a emergency backup! the amount of saving and safety will be off the roof!!
Lol. Majors Capt. Easily $400K a year. Assuming 12+ years service.
More, readily available.