What If Austria United Germany In 1648?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
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#possiblehistory #alternatehistory #ph #Europe #alternatehistoryofeurope
Germany was one of the final European states to unify, only managing in 1870. But Germany has the potential thanks to it's size and population to dominate Europe. So what if, in an alternate scenario, Germany had been unified as early as 1648, following the thirty years war.
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somehow TH-cam unsubscribed me. but don't worry i resubbed.
Hey I want to ask one question there was a debate in my college one lecture who teach us about politics said in that debate" the days of religion has gone the time of culture and civilization has begin"what does it mean and is he right?
What if Charlemagne Married Irene of Athens?
Hello, i want some help. I thought about a very good scenario, where the British become fascist and allied with the Germans, while the French, Spanish and Italians form a alliance and fight both german nations. Can you do it, please?
PLEASE do a video about Italy uniting early
Everyone is asking in Europe “Do you want Spain to be ruled by the Austrians or the French?” But nobody is asking… “What do you want Spain?”
Fuck Spain, yes.
As a Spaniard Habsburgs
Most of the relevant Spaniards chose the Bourbon and the Aragonese went traitor.
@@johnnotrealname8168 the aragoneses werent traitors they choose the Habsburg because they know that they would respect their autonomy thing that Borbons didnt , the Borbón reforma briged the fall of the Spanish empire
@@matepucci5808 They were traitors, they sided with the enemy in a War. That is the most traitorous thing you could do. The Bourbons had no plans at the outset to destroy priveliges, which by the way amounted to tax-dodging and shirking military service, but were given an excuse because of the actions taken during the War. Well I do agree with that, I do not much like the Bourbon's centralising (In a sense.) policies and indeed their cultural suppression.
It seems to me the most realistic scenario would be one where an extremely clever and lucky Hapsburg emperor played the Pope off of the Protestants such that a the Catholic and Protestant churches reach a grumpy toleration of each other and a Holy Roman Emperor becomes the strongest of the three blocks, bridging the religious divide, and can slowly consolidate power over a few generations starting from that foundation.
Well France keeping to themself is the big factor.
I find this unlikely because the Habsburgs took the religion thing very seriously and they legally were allowed to meddle in Bohemia. However yeah France.
@@therac197Yes brother, and it's worth thinking about how history would've been different if King Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden lived longer.
@@therac197 France has expanded so much that if any of the Congress of Vienna statesmen took notice they would be extremely alarmed at the centuries of French dominance not only over the competing Habsburg but of neighboring small estates in the HRE.
@@sharjiljafric-3184 The Swedes most likely would have been crushed if it hadn´t been for france.
Almost half of the armies funding was straight up coming from France (treaty of Barwäld)
Very nice video as always! The Thirty Years War is a really underrated historical war, especially stateside, so it's always nice to see an AH covering it. Of course, it's also always nice to see an AH that's past the 200 year mark that isn't Roman-related.
Well it *is* Roman related, just not the same Roman
Underrated?
In German history lessons, the war is taught ad nauseam. Only the Weimar Republic and the Second World War are treated in more detail.
@@danielmcbriel1192 Yeah sure, in GERMAN history lessons, but not over here.
@@firelordmarklin6166 Well, England was hardly involved and the indirect impact on the later USA was only a mass of German emigrants to America.
The Seven Years' War between Prussia/England, France, Austria and Russia is much more important to American history.
(French and Indian War)
Alternatively, the Emperor could decide to go full Roman and try and put the Church back under imperial authority by embracing the Reformation himself.
Doubtful that if this scenario were to occur that the Habsburg Emperors would wish to rule directly these vast territories confiscated from the protestants. More than likely these lands would be transferred from their protestant lords to either loyal catholic nobles, or catholic branches of these same families. And even without direct control over the lands, winning the war would have cemented the power of the Habsburgs even further, and still could have led to further centralization of the Empire.
This is definitely a more realistic scenario.
This is a really interesting scenario! I haven't actually thought about something like this before and it's interesting to see someone cover such a timeline. Great job as always Mr. Potential and keep up the good work!
Another very interesting scenario. Well done, I love your videos because you don't stick to the clichéd timelines we have seen a thousand times, very refreshing
Great job on the video. I have A question for you; What if Franz Josef married Queen Victoria ?
depending on when they get married, probably a coalition war to prevent a universal monarchy, though if it's not too long after the hungarian revolution the austrians might be too weakened to put up a fight. maybe they settle on a partitioned austria and a habsburg england? or an arrangement like with the bourbons in spain. either way sounds cursed asf to me lol
Definitely problematic in terms of religion. Victoria couldn't be the Queen of England as a Catholic and Franz Josef just WOULDN'T convert to Anglicanism.
@@AdmiraHax in theory neither one has to convert, and their kids would have to split the realm anyways (no one would allow that large of an empire to survive in a united form, much like Spain and Austria under Charles)
What about Ivan the Terrible marrying Queen Elizabeth?
@@MilnaAlen I think he already made A video about that scenario.
This was fun!! My only criticism is I feel like post the united post-30 years war HRE/Germany should have its borders in one solid color; with just the orange outline and not over all of the Empire's territory (just Germany proper), it can be a little bit harder for the viewer to understand what is going on.
Great scenario and video!
So basically this alternate timeline talks about an OP Germany but created by Austria rather than Prussia in the 17 century
germany uniting in 1648 would make sweden to weak to invade plc in 1655, and they're invasion was the thing that made most of polish nobility bancrupt (which gave all of the power to few magnates, and led to start of yousing liberum veto), destroyed countries economy and made it loose it's world power status. without sweden invaiding poland could even led to poland menaging to defend the agriments of Hadacz union against russia (turning plc into the union of three states. Poland, Lithuania and Ruthea, ending the cossac rebelion)
The moment when Austria passes the last Centralization Reform:
Spot an eu4 player
@@ziyilin2029 takes one to know one
Dat reform is imbalanced as some cheat code. It should be removed.
If the emperor would of been successfully at consolidating the HRE those borders would be the most beautiful thing ever
I mean Germany at the turn of the 20th century was a industrial power just imagine how powerful it could be under a consolidated Hapsburg empire
Absolute dream scenario
Try this: What if the Habsburg never ruled Spain? There are 2 ways: Juan the heir of the Catholic monarchs doesn't die young and gets to continue the Trastamara dynasty, or second, Manuel of Portugal, grandson of the Catholic Kings inherits Spain and Portugal. No useless war in the Netherlands, no French fear of being surrounded, more protection of Italian conquered lands, same commercial policies of the Trastamaras that lead to economic boom, and viceroyal armies to be used in Europe if necessary.
Just finished watching this banger and was surprised to see the channel only having 3000 subs, this content is way too good
I have been loving these what ifs that you have been making lately!
11:48 Actually the first veto was used in 1652.
And it happened very randomly.
Maybe due to the butterfly effect it never becomes a thing in this timeline.
Great video dude continue to nice work
also here is a suggestion
What if the umayyads took constantinople in 718
that seems like some crazy death tolls though. But I like the idea of a pragmatic hansburg subduing the north
Wouldn't be much worse than the actual 30 years war we got. +12 mio is nothing to scoff at.
Seeing a huge beatifull Poland makes this video so much better
still irks me to ever see a Poland without Poznań/Greater Poland though, considering the cultural makeup and historical importance of the region
When I first thought about the scenario around Poland, I was thinking "no way Poland gets divided in this scenario, without Prussia there really wouldn't be any power pushing for its division." But as I thought more, I realized there was another time when Poland was almost divided but managed to get away which could turn out very different: The Deluge. In OTL, Poland was almost divided between Russia, Sweden, and Cossack break aways that would have left a rump Poland-Lithuania, just barely managing to turn the tide of the war. In this alternate TL, the Cossacks, Russia, and Sweden could still go to war with Poland simultaneously, and while I think the HRE would start off supporting the Poles, they could quickly change their minds if they see the tide is turning against them and lead to a Polish Partition. Like the real Polish Partitions, it probably doesn't destroy Poland instantly, but over the course of the next couple decades they'd be forced to give up more and more.
When I saw Poland on the miniature I thought that it would be for the best since if Emperor made his second son or brother marry some magnate daughter and send him to take part in elections there would be a rich person who can bribe the disingenuous and also powerful backer who could want all the best for his dynasty and bloodline, around which the loyalists could gather, making it possible to actually enforce some reforms. As long as they weren’t too radical like religious persecution, land repossession, and total abolition of parliament the opposition could have been resolved
Both you and the author of the film forgot that the Polish crown and the Duchy of Lithuania were Christian and it was the Ruthenian Orthodox nobility who joined the Cossacks, plus Orthodox Russians and Protestant Swedes. In those years, one of the most important things in politics was faith. When the Polish king from the Vasa dynasty set out for Moscow, he had a crusade in his mind, just like the church supporting him. If in this scenario the Holy Roman Empire was united by the Christian Habsburgs, Poland would be an ally for Germany. In the worst scenario for Poland, they would try to introduce a king from their dynasty there because Poland had an elective throne.
12:04 Or Poland couldve just reformed seeing the danger from a great unified germany the nobility could be more willing to strenghten the kings power, the sytem itself wasnt the only reason Poland fell and predicting Poland in this scenario to me seems like the hardest part since similiar to how each monarch ruled diffrently the Polish nobility would be even more undecided and dependant on random factors
This makes even less sense seeing how Poland lithuania is able to expand territorially, each of these expansions maybe used by kings for increasing theyr power in the country and dunno if the powerful Catholic austria would be as willing to divide Poland with the orthodox and protestants as protestant prussia and orthodox russia
Poland saw the danger of a great unified Russia and still didn't reform. Why would their reaction to a unified Germany would be any different?
@@simulacrumpilot2777There were active attempts to reform like one that happened during wettins but due to a prussian plot it didnt happen
Poland wasnt destined to be partitioned, a siginifcant contribution to Poland's downfall was Augustus II, who aiming to strengthen his own power completely mutilated PLC's military so his saxon troops were guaranted to not have any serious danger. He also led Poland into the great northern war which mutilated it even further
I watched this video like a year ago so i dont remember what was said in it particularly but in our reality Russia was unwilling to partition Poland for a long time believing it could controll it on its own, it was Bar Confederation and prussian nagging that they finally agreed to it, additionally the 1st partition wasn't designed to be followed by an another, it wasn't a plan for russia to partition it rather a reaction to Poland's attempts to rebel.
Additionally Catholic austria wouldn't have much reason to get rid of their Catholic ally and would be even less willing to give away catholic land to heretical states
My prediction is that the middle option taken. Neither the French nor the German Habsburgs come out of this conflict as the unquestioned dominators of Europe. I foresee a similar deal to what happened OTL, with the Bourbons taking the Spanish throne, but being removed from the French succession and the Habsburgs gaining control over formerly Spanish lands in the Western HRE.
I loved the video and the quality was fantastic! Could you perhaps do a video about other things during era? Such as what if the Netherlands won the Anglo Dutch wars?
I would say just William having a sun is enough because it would make one hell of an empire.
I really enjoyed the video! Very interesting scenario!
And now let's get 200 years forward and get the true and wholesome revolution.
Otherwise, a very good scenario of an age not often talked about.
Everyone: No
Spain: Yes
Awesome scenario, have never seen this concept before!
Well actually without August of Saxony bribing the MPs to vote for him Jakub Sobieski would have been chosen king who would probably pursue his fathers policy of reforming the system.
truly one of the videoes of all time
I think a more reasonable scenario is HRE giving France Lorraine and Calais while giving the Netherland the low countries with the promise of either supporting stay out of the war. This way the HRE only have to fight the north german princes and the Scandinavians.
Actually France also claimed Wallonia.
Could you do a “part 2” exploring whether the Habsburgs would participate in colonization of the world beyond Europe in this scenario?
How don't you have much more subs this is amazing 😍
1:59 "This could have NEVER happened in real life"
- *Possible* History
As you said, your scenario is most unlikely. More likely would have been an alternate timepline with the Emporer accepting Wallensteins proposal, that the war could not be won by any side and it would strengthen the Emporer to become a peace dealer in a religious nutral Empire. Ferdinand II. would have been in a comfortable position after defeating Denmark and Sweden and the hole Empire would have been spared the most catastrophic part of the 30 years war...
I can see a different scenario for the east and north. Polish kings at this time were closely related to the Habsburgs and they were very catholic. Poland would ally Austria with the hope of getting the Swedish throne back. Union of Poland, Sweden and Lithuania would be too strong so I suspect that catholic Vasas would keep Sweden and some Habsburg would be elected the next king of PLC - maybe emperor himself, maybe his brother or cousin. After some time PLC would become part of the empire like Hungary or Bohemia
considering that France wasn't involved in the Thirty Years War, this would mean that Portugal would had no opportunity to become independent, which would cause Spain to eventually integrate the Portuguese in the Spanish Empire, as Portugal had slowly losing autonomy over time
then in the Spanish Succession, it is very likely that Portugal would support the Habsburg as the Habsburg was still allowing state as Catalonia and Aragon to retain some autonomy, Portugal would likely be the same, and it's possible that some Portuguese bureaucrats would use this opportunity as another independence attempt
A Germany led by Austria is the most based Germany.
Some would say Germany led by *an Austrian* is the most based Germany.
Some would say Germany led by *an Austrian* is the most based Germany.
Thank you for posting this! Can we have one on if the Dutch took their New York or South African colonies more seriously?
I mean, the Dutch took their South African colony very seriously, but the Napoleonic Wars were just to damaging for the Dutch
@@Raadpensionaris very well said. Also I like your name :)
But I just mean if their colonies had more European or otherwise settlers to populate their colonies so that they took on more political life of their own. Right now Suriname is the only independent Dutch speaking majority country but is insignificant politically. And Afrikaans is only slightly a majority language in Northern and Western Cape.
Netherlands history is one of my favorites. American president (1830s) Martin Van Buren was the only American president who's native language was not English, he spoke Dutch. He was from Kinderhook, New York. Sleepy Hollow which was written in the 1820s and was America's first major piece of literature, takes place in upstate New York and most of the characters are New York Dutch.
@@nicholasphelps3872 I see. Yeah that would have been interesting for sure. The problem was funnily enough that life was to good in the Dutch Republic for large amounts of migration to the colonies to occure. A weird problem to have, but it made settler colonies not that viable. It is not the only reason why the Dutch didn't settle that much, but is was important
@@Raadpensionaris only would have happened after Rampjaar probably.
0:10
You forgot morroco
Still the same berber nations from Mauritania Roman province
To berber kingdoms in medieval age
To now
But not knowed like "moroco"
And also he is talking about Europe. Morocco had little to do with Europe during those times
This makes me think of a scenario where Europe might unify in the early twentieth century through an alternate "Great War": After 1871, France would slowly start to think their enemy Germany as an enemy of the liberal democratic countries in Europe, France+NL+Belgium+Lux will form a basic confederation (which is the unrealistic part). They then make alliances with Britain and Russia to counter the central powers, and spreading propaganda about the lack of liberal democracy of their opponents. Thus making the eventual war not to be about nationalist desire to humiliate the enemy, but about the conflict between liberalism and conservatism. Will the liberal entente win (maybe with help from italy) or will they fail (russia might not want to support the spread of liberal democracy).
I need to learn more about the 30 years war now
Nice video, if you polished up the maps you’re using and threw some historical images in there it would make your videos even more fun to watch
I love this scenario. I want to see more Habsburger Scenarios, like what if Austria-Hungary reformes sucessfully?
I loved this video. Anything to do with the HRE is fascinating to me.
I think that the Austrians would dominate Europe for a time, but would lag behind during the industrial revolution. If they can unify the empire culturally then it may continue to exist as is, otherwise, splinter states may form during its weakness. It would eventually reform and would most likely industrialize after England but before Russia.
Deductions made from Poland feel kinda forced. In such circumstances these seem unrealistic scraps. Prussia mainly desired Pomerania corridor, but according to Russia's expansion they also took Greater Poland and Warsaw. Unified Germany most propably would put a king to a polish throne and dominate the whole country..
Bro your videos are amazing and underated 😭😭😭😭
Great vid, very educational. What if scenario though, what if Pedro V of Portugal survived to old age?
Lovely video. I think that when the tri-rivalry forms between britan, france, and the germans you would get something similar to the concert of europe situation with great power politics to try to maintain the balance of power untill a crisis occurs, like one of them having a revolution or revolt
I think the long term direct control of all the confiscated land is unlikely and would have a good amount of it handed out to new nobles. In specific id guess that the Swiss, Dutch, and Catholic German territories would be divided up while North Germany proper would be kept under the Emperor. A more realistic alternative to this scenario is instead of all lands being seized but have the Prussian and a handful of larger minor lords land revoked and have that be all thats incorporated, thats more then enough land to better consolidate the Empire but not so much more so to entirely spook Europe. Maybe even slap on the Netherlands also but with the explicate caveat and intent to divide the land up among worth nobility essentially decentralizing authority there and putting it under a new coat of Catholic paint.
But thats just my thoughts, what do other people think?
Now could you do a similar situation, but including the non-German (Italian lands, the Netherlands, Switzerland, etc) parts of the empire centralized? Perhaps the first Habsburg emperor doing so? Or perhaps when the HRE was at its territorial height? Or perhaps a centralization of the empire of Charles V? All sound like equally interesting censorious.
Excellent video 👌🏽
That was a really nice one, good job!
this is really good
I feel like perhaps austria could have convinced Spain to offer some of the low countries to France as compensation for staying neutral. Because it would be crazy for France to stay neutral in the 30 years war without good motivation.
I once actually had an idea for a united Germany early but not this early my idea, was a person Union happening between Austria and Prussia following the reign Frederick the Great
I can’t see the map very well but do the Dutch have Antwerp because Zeeuws Vlaanderen is connected to north Brabant. But this could be a visual error.
dutch face is the best in the intro
While its interesting the most what if scenarios have a problem: they start at the point of interest. The whole scenario would be much more plausable if the protestants wouldnt get that much power in the first place. So you would have to start the scenario about 150 years earlier to set the stage for a much more powerful emperor.
I believe it should not be the question of religion at all, but about economy and culture, integration of the Empire. And the win in 1648 gives time for that.
WE CROSSING THE GAP WITH THIS ONE
🗣🗣🗣
I wish you did some more and expand to what if the Germans actually got more collonies in America than. As far as i know Germany didnt had Collonies Because of Internal Conflicts ^^
Its a great Video and a nice Theory
You should do what if the ottomans focused on Asia instead of Europe
yo this vid is sick so it should be recomended to more people
can you do a "what if Lenin let the social revolutionaries take power in the 1917 election" I think that would be very cool and seeing what will happen to the SU with democracy and if there could win against the Germans in 1941 sounds fun.
love the video too
I live in lower saxony in germany and you forgot that the austrians would probably even with violence convert us to Catholicism. That would be a living Nightmare!
I love how the swiss borders never change
Very interesting. What also would be interesting is: what if Charlemagne married Empress Theodora, essentially recreating the Roman Empire
What if the Turks instead of Migrating south into India, Persia, and Anatolia, decided to migrate farther into the north european plain, setting up huge flatland gunpowder/horse empires there
Neat, man made horrors beyond my imagination.
we already did it before slavs there was no slavs.. also we already were going to roma 3 times last time la grande aquila e marta..they poisoned Kağan Mehmet such worriors tryed 12 times to poison :D nvm greeks u were on the way ok its not personally
Honestly this might make the british-french union possible which would be fun, russia and kalmar union would be the wild cards but at least russia would be distracted by the ottoman empire.
Napoleon might also heroically save France by valiant defense instead of attempting to conquer Europe.
If the Emperor hadn't withdrawn his support for Wallenstein causing him to be assassinated, things could've been very different!
how about: What if the protestant reformation is more successful in the HRE? As in, Westphalia, Baden, Württemberg, upper Bavaria, and perhaps even western Austria turn protestant?
13:33 cool
Nice video my dude!
Great video!
I think the hasburg would win the spanish succesion war or they could prevent the war
I know it's special one and I only listen during work in the house and you can tell good alternative history. How can I get in contact with you about The Netherlands alternative
Bavaria be like: WHY I CAN'T CHOOSE THE EMPREROR!?
Ferdinand should have left the Edict of Restitution in the drawer and focused on political centralisation. It was the Edict which destroyed the Habsburg political position in Germany in 1629-30.
Can you do if Sweden won the great northern war.
Very enjoyable!
11:48 PLC slander!
The PLC had problems with its governmental system, but the Liberum Veto wasn’t one of them. Vetoes could be overruled, and - before the latter half of the 17th century - they frequently were. The problem with Poland-Lithuania was its total lack of central authority.
The Liberum Veto was just a symptom of the underlying issue; the complete dominance of the noble class over state affairs and their susceptibility to outside influence.
It would radically change Europe history for the better
Impossible : The Habsburgs were Catholic, the German Princes were protestants.
I think Britain and France would put their rivalry aside in such a scenario, just as the Spanish and French did in our timeline when they thought the British were getting too powerful.
What if the Dutch Republic united northwestern Germany in 1648?
Good afternoon
That Habsburg-Germany would have major habours like Hamburg or Bremen Antwerpen aswell meaning they will get colony ambitions too what bring France, England and even Spain together. In the time of Peace the Holy Roman Empire will looking for colonies. Pirate attacts from Northern Africa will bring Italian states closer to Habsburg which will build up a fleet there. War with the Ottomans over Greece and the Balcans might follow. Even a Holy Alliance between Austria, Russia, Poland and Venice to kick the Ottomans out of Europe is possible. Regaining Constatinpole is thinkable.
A big one, this.
...that map in the thumbnail for Sweden is really fucking weird.
The Norwegian province added in was only swedish for two years, between 1658 and 1660, before going back to Denmark, and the only time I can think of for that Swedish-Russian border is either half a century, or a century and a half in the future, during wartime.
this video made me realize that poland lithuania had based borders
2:28 LOL Germany (in blue) looks like a skull taking a bite out of western Europe.
It is impossible that in this scenario Carlos II designs Felipe of Anjou as heir
I think that Britain and the Habsburgs would work together since due to having such vast European holdings I don’t think they would compete with Britain for colonies like France did.
What if The Soviet Union wasn't invaded and stayed neutral in WW2?
FOR THE ALGORITHM! (fun vid, ty)
A very interesting Article! But! The map of a huge Poland is wrong. The german kingdoms went far more to the east than shown on these map. And on the throne of Poland for very long time sat the King of Saxonia which belonged to the Holy Roman Imperium of German Nation. Other parts belonged to Austria and Russia. Then for a long time Poland as state did not exist at all
In your timeline Schleswig is still Danish despite the Emperor taking back German territory. On purpose? Why?
The fact that Poland and Britian had their colors switched up bothers me more than it should.