Just to be clear for those posting before watching: this discussion is in no way advocating for a Splinter Twin unbanning. Rather, it is a discussion about how a philosophy of "ban cards for format diversity" may have been part of Modern's decline over the years. Hope you enjoy it. I think this is a real scintillating conversation. Oh, and also, it was filmed in The Before Times, which is how I am able to have an in person guest.
@@daseinoseven4514 Clickbait? Do me a favor and leave me alone with this disrespectful, rude, and patronizing BS. This is an entire hour-long discussion where I literally, word for word, am saying "Splinter Twin Did Nothing Wrong." I was worried I said it too often. It's the premise of the entire video. It's a subject I care deeply about and one that has informed me and my views for literally half a decade now as I watch my once favorite format become a train wreck. I flew an expert Modern historian out to discuss these thoughts and ideas, to cover everything relating to "Splinter Twin Did Nothing Wrong" and you're going to sit back here and say "Clickbait. Disappointed in you." Well guess what? I am disappointed in you. Go read a book.
Thinking about how they banned Bridge instead of Hogaak, everyone responded with "What? Why?", and then the deck was still amazing. Now, with Lurrus, people are genuinely saying "Maybe we should ban Bauble instead of the new card," and I'm sitting here like, "Have we learned nothing?"
There is a difference. Bauble is being used in other strong decks like urza where they are also being broken, where bridge wasn't good in any top tier decks other than in hogaak.
Once they realized that Bridge want the issue, they should have unbanned Bridge when they banned Hogaak. The company that prints cards should NOT be the same company that determines bannings.
Wim De Cock bauble wasn’t being spammed in every deck in modern... it’s not a simples “zero mana cantrip” that may fit in every deck. Bauble isn’t the problem. If not bauble, lurrus decks will spam explosives and chalices... and the problem will keep existing.
There's no way they would ban Hogaak while the set was still in allocation. Just like Oko happened to be banned in Standard only after Eldraine already sold to all stores.
Dont get me wrong lurrus is strong, but you can interact with lurrus, lurrus doesnt goes infinite or big enough to win, and there is deck restriction to play it, and still you only get 1 copy, so i dont think you need to worry about it
Unfortunately, Modern has become prohibitively expensive because you need fetchlands to play at the right speed and they have unofficially put fetchlands on the reserve list.
That's one of the reasons I bought Amulet Titan two years ago. The deck was relatively inexpensive at the time and it doesn't run any fetches at all. Unfortunately, the metagame progressed to the point where I would need to spend almost a hundred additional dollars if I wanted to run the current Amulet list that has performed the best (with a Karn, Great Creator package). Imagine if I had bought Once Upon a Time for 10 dollars x 4 or even Oko at 30 bucks because it was an auto-include in Amulet Titan only to have them immediately banned....
I'm fairly new to MTG and to be honest, I don't play anything except EDH and draft because of the cost. Some of my commander decks are now 400$ worth, but it was gradually increased over time and by luck (opening a Jace in a booster). But when I see Modern prices, I just find that too expensive to invest in. 600$ for a deck? F* that, i prefer buying another precon and do something with it over time. The manabase is one of the biggest problem and they don't seem really keen to address it in any way sufficient for the new players.
@@clementdallaire6254 i would argue that you are safer investing in commander or pauper than modern. Unless wizards starts going for pauper you won't have any issues, and commander is managed by a different company for their bans , so we don't have wotc not letting stuff get banned there.
WotC: Fetchlands create a bad Standard environment, the manabases become too good and there's too much shuffling Also WotC: Prints Fabled Passage into Standard
Between Splinter Twin banning and Eldrazi Winter I was like screw WOTC I’ll just play edh. Now I’m concerned they will screw up edh with Commander Legends.
They have already screwed up Commander as a format with partners. EDH was best like, when modern, cards were not developed specifically for it. Sure, before WotC created commander there were a handful of legendary cards or what have you in standard that you could tell someone in R&D designed because they loved EDH, but it's been nothing like since they first starting making pre-con decks. Most of the EDH community is dreading Commander Legends to a degree. We'll have to see. If it's more like Battlebond and less like MH1 I think it could be good.
@@LC-wv7tz Yeah, the Commander Commanders warped the format entirely. The only legendary creature from the before-times that still keeps up with the cards designed specifically for Commander is Zur--and that's only because it was designed to go ham with Necropotence. To your point, partners were the apotheosis of people who should really be playing Canadian Highlander turning their gaze toward Commander--and I don't view that as a good thing. Also +1 for dreading Commander legends. Let me play my jank, Wizards.
37:36 - I really can't say I agree with Ben's point here. Trying "accessibility" to the likelihood that your deck will get banned is an odd metric, particularly given how many decks have been banned recently. Modern still relies on plenty of potentially problematic cards, like Stirrings, Astrolabe, and Urza, at the highest tiers of play. If we're using bans to measure accessibility...how can we possibly say that Modern is "accessible" as a result? If you're worried about your deck getting banned, this is probably the worst time, ever, to play Modern. Case in point - we sit here now debating how many of the new companions are going to have to go in Modern. I know we can't blame Ben here for hindsight fueled observations he wasn't capable of predicting...but my point is that I think we likely could have predicted something like this, given Modern's recent track record. Bans for Modern have become a game of whack-a-mole, and the format has been completely unstable as a result. Furthermore...it shouldn't necessarily be the case that you need to have some massive prerequisite amount of information about the format to know which decks are "safe" and which ones aren't. Requiring this kind of experienced consideration, in order to avoid getting burned financially, is the exact opposite concept as "accessibility". It is not friendly to a beginner excited about the format and picking up their first deck. They have to be careful about picking up a deck that's good...but not "too good". They have to be careful about not picking up a deck that uses cards that have caused problems in other decks they aren't even aware of (like Astrolabe). And so on. Experienced players may know what decks are safe, but a non-zero amount of beginners picked up Arclight, due to how many Standard cards overlapped with it, and were annihilated from orbit via very heavy-handed bans. A lot of those folks aren't coming back, and this is a train that definitely hasn't stopped in Modern.
Bans are a real issue in modern due to the massive financial investment required. Thus, I would say that bans being absolutely devastating to players in modern is a symptom of the real problem which is the egregious exploitation of the secondary market by Wizards.
I think the sports analogy is a perfect representation of how modern should have been. I can watch reid duke play jund a thousand times and still enjoy it because watching him play that deck and listening to his lines of play are incredible. Modern should be more about the pilot and their skill level than the decks themselves.
Except that the NBA was boring, so they added a shotclock. Or Wilt Chamberlain existed and was just taller than everyone, so they added Goaltending as a rule.
I played when Twin was still in Modern, and it really wasn’t that much of an issue even then. Was the deck good? Yes. Were there several other decks that could balance it out at the time? Yes. Give them the cards that have been printed since then, along with the environment that has been built in modern since then, honestly Twin would probably not be that bad at all if it were to be unbanned now.
Twin would absolutely be a problem at this point. Teferi, Time Raveler, Force of Negation, Flusterstorm, and Veil of Summer along with perfect 4-5c mana bases guarantee that Twin would be FAR more powerful than it previously was.
@@pascalraskal9347 yea no buddy. There is no way to spin it ass accessible. That much money for cardboard is too much. Other hobbies might eat money but other hobbies that eat money aren't cardboard. If I collect vintage cars, in the end to the day, I have vintage cars.
@@DimT670 the proper price for cardboard is a different discussion from is the hobby accessible, magic is the baby of board games and stamp collecting of course its pieces arent worth their value in a tangible sense. from a functional sense its in the under 1000 dollar hobby category which means its inherently accessible, but instead of saving up for a decent guitar youre going to buy it 2 grains of wood at a time
a month or so before the splinter twin banning. i had just picked up the cards to play it. so i moved ontoa jeskai control deck. It had all the tools, and snapcasters too. somehow the format became too fast for a deck full of answers and 2 for 1/s. it feels like whoever can slap down their cards first wins now. there is little back and forth.
At least you had a month with your deck. I made it in paper and online and it was a week until it got banned... Never went back into magic since and don't regret it. I'm not stupid and keep giving them money.
There was a poor soul at my lgs that bought into standard with an oko deck. Then after the banning, he switched to modern to play with his friends. He chose to buy into affinity because it had been around so long...he doesn't play magic anymore.
@@abrahamdrinkin2534 Four months later: Legacy Hogaak is one of the decks to beat. The only cards not being in a Modern legal set are Careful Study, Cabal Therapy and dual lands.
I think the reason behind this is Standard. It works like a filter. Maybe because it is possible to play test better ... Should be possible to test all interactions there. This is not possible for Modern and Commander.
it was only like 10 cards that shaped tier 1 play. if they were replaced with high demand reprints and included all the fetches it would have been perfect. i love having the old cycle lands in modern as well as some other cards. modern horizons + mystic sanctuary made blue moon playable. same with goblin matron. elevating low tier/unplayable to mid tier should have been the goal +maybe reprints +maybe draft experience
This discussion seems relevant after the eSports episode at present. If a deck like Splinter Twin was able to be a constant presence at Pro Events, then commentary could be crafted around "look at Player X and how well they pilot Splinter Twin vs Player Y, who is a Blue Moon master." I think there is a lot to take from this and that episode, overall I wish broadcasted Magic could be as good as I know it could be
@@garygarrison594 if you have to save up for a year to buy something non-essential, its expensive. that stack of cardboard and ink is double the cost of a nintendo switch.
@@DeciduousClouds Again though it is about the comparison point. I'm just jumping back into Magic as my main game and as such I've decided to focus on Pioneer and Commander with Arena being my Standard card fun (and I'll build a Standard deck here and there when the boosters and timing align). Grixis Control Pioneer: ~$450 if I built it cheaper, $500 w/ the alt-art Nicol-Bolas Sliver Commander: ~$375 Meren Commander: ~$350 These are the good local store decks. cEDH has much more expensive decks and Pioneer has ~$700 decks that are competitive. Standard, by comparison, is $300-$600 if we ignore RDW and Green Stompy when those are strong. So if we assume his $600 estimate was right (it wasn't) then for an enthusiast Modern is approachable to a degree; however, I don't know how you can really come into Modern and for me Pioneer has more cards I have an attraction to and could very well wind up seeing similar decks eventually. I mean look at his Grixis Shadows example.... that is pretty much what my Grixis Pioneer deck is also looking at doing just with more Bolas flavor.
well tbh if u are only playing locally you don't really need all 4 caverns of souls or dare I say any at all. so that gets rid of 250 of the cost. The rest of the deck is just 350, and you could always cut 1 hierarch and 1 aether vial to get it down to under 300. which is the cost of a standard deck that'll be worth nothing In 2 years' time, while your aether vials and hierarchs are still worth big bucks along with other cards like thalia. it isn't spending the money per se, because the magic cards still have a high value. so it can be looked at as an investment. or you can just play pauper, cuz that format is fucking awesome and super cheap.
Excellent episode Prof. I'm relatively new to modern and really wish I could have played in times before these discussed events, and just experienced its history in genral first-hand. I love the format and totally agree with Ben that it is the best format in Magic.
This was my favorite interview in this type of format for a video you have done. Really great discussion about the modern history that I lack much knowledge of at all. If I could understand it, anyone can.
You do great work. I appreciate the fact that you're constantly putting your connections to Wizards on the line every time you press them on issues they seem to want to gloss over.
Playing splinter twin made me a better magic player. Piloting that deck taught me more about magic than any article, podcast, video, stream or event IRL. It also made for some of the best magic memories I have. I played against burn and got down to 4 life. EOT played my copy of exarch, untapped and played twin on it. Went for the combo and an opponent played a destructive revelry on it. I cast a second exarch in my hand and comboed off with the revelry on the stack. That win was probably my favorite ever. Having such an interactive deck, for me, was the best magic experience ever.
The same thing could be said for birthing pod. Tool box decks aren't broken themselves. Oko, Underworld Breach, Hogg'ak, and Uzra are breaking modern. Fair decks are fair. Tool box decks are fair.
Pod *was* fair. If Pod was unbanned it would be a Combo deck where one resolved creature would instantly lose you the game due to there being more untap effects at every CMC
@@swiftdragonrider It's very unlikely it does so before turn 4. It's 6 mana to play and activate pod twice. Doable by turn 3, but quite difficult because you have to get a 3 drop in play on turn 2 that adds mana. There aren't many of those being played.
For me modern is a Format of Favorites. I can ALWAYS build a Deck where i build around one or more of my Favorite Cards and If i learn to play it right. I performed great at modern Double ups on GPs with Splinterfright and Huntmaster of the Fells. Those cards are not unfair.
I wish that Modern would have started with Ravnica: City of Guilds. This would have worked in a few ways: * Ravnica marked the end of white-bordered cards, meaning that every card legal in this Modern has a printing with the post-Scourge frame and with a black border (without needing to be foil, buy-a-box exclusives not withstanding). * In addition to the frame aesthetics, all legal cards would have colored mana symbols in text boxes. It would lack the similarity between the white cards and artifact cards that was seen in 8th, Mirrodin and Darksteel. * All legal cards with a type Aura would be up-to-date, as opposed to "Enchant _____". * Not including the 8th, 9th, Mirrodin and Kamigawa blocks would eliminate the need for nearly half the banned list (17 cards in total) Granted, these things wouldn't necessarily fix the current state of Modern, but I think it would have made for a much different environment.
@@steveng6721 Not triggered, but a method of a natural cutoff point similar to choosing the modern frame of 8th as the cutoff for modern, or the even newer frame version (with collector info and Beleren font) as the cutoff point for Pioneer's predecessor, Frontier. At one point there were talks that modern format would have included cards all the way back to Masques, since it was the first set not to have cards in the reserve list. The point is that the cutoff is subjective, and a different cutoff could have resulted in a format that stayed much healthier for much longer.
I love Modern and Ben was a great guest. He brought a lot of useful historical context to this discussion. I also miss my Affinity deck (Urza, sigh) and worry that WotC have lost the plot. Thanks again, Prof. This discussion couldn't be more relevant given our current climate ... maybe a companion piece to follow?
You also should be accepting of the fact that cards you’ve had for years that cost hundreds of dollars will get banned and become worthless over night... 👌
That ending, HAHAHA! Ben Bateman, you were incredibly fun to watch. Very eloquent and put together. I am going to go subscribe to your channel because of your ability to converse in a calm manner.
I feel like a Splinter Twin player now that Mox Opal is gone. I remember playing a Magic on my Xbox. My favorite deck was one with the affinity mechanic. It played Etched Champion. When I heard that it was a competitive deck a couple of years later in modern, I had to build that deck. But now the old must pay for the sins of the new. I'm on board with the Professor on Horizons now.
I have a Modern Goryo deck on my shelf that doesn't see much play these days, and my old Splinter Twin cards are in a box. I'm hoping to one day sling with them again. The nostalgia in this episode is real. - Spencer of CC
The first format I ever made a deck adhere to was modern, it just makes sense as a starting player. I had been playing unstructured kitchen table magic for a few months, with some new cards and some cards from people's old collections being passed around. When I learned about formats I thought it made sense to have a legally playable deck, even though I had no concept of meta or competitive power levels, so I slightly modified my illusions deck to be legal in modern. Today the deck is much better and still legal, but its never really seen play against any of the common modern decks in any meta. It's basically a kitchen table magic deck that happens to be modern, its probably low tier, but its good enough to beat other casual decks, and I have a lot of fun with it. This seems to align exactly with your idea that modern is a format for non rotating, non reserve cards. I didn't want to have to keep up with anything, so all I did was remove the really old cards. I like that kind of simple magic, I'm not sure how common that kind of introduction to the game is anymore, certainly no one at all gets that kind of experience on arena It seems to me the best way to balance decks and encourage brewing is to tier decks based on the demand of the cards which comprise them, ie: monetary cost tiers. Yes it's dynamic and therefore hard to determine exactly the impact, just like the card pool itself, it's not a problem as it's not introducing randomness, it's matching it. The issue is with implementation feasibility, and that the structure of dynamic tiers kind of conflicts with the structure of banning and formats, though you could have one inside the other I tend to agree with you that I don't want rotations and shake-ups in expensive decks, though its interesting to take this and compare it to the video game world. Video game consoles rotate out, mostly for no reason other than to shake things up so people will buy more, and those run around $500. The individual consumers may not want rotation, but the amorphous mass of consumer wants it, or at least they reward it. The problem runs deeper than magic, consumer bases can't voice their opinions as a whole, they can only mindlessly consume until their food source runs dry, and so the only ones left to feed them are people who are secretly feeding off them I don't understand how people can say $600-$900 is accessible in general, to the majority. Maybe if you spend your whole life playing magic, you make your living off magic, or you have tons of disposable income. Maybe if you're playing tournaments with big cash prizes, but I think most people play magic as a board game or video game replacement. And that price does NOT stack up at all. I paid probably $20 for settlers of catan, 20 years ago, and have gotten a comparable amount of human hours of enjoyable gameplay out of it to the hundreds of dollars I have spent on magic overall. The rate I pay for video games is about $1 for every 10 hours of gameplay, still significantly higher than most board games, but a very good rate. Sure, its not a completely ridiculous out of the park life expense to pay, but for most people mtg is not a life expense, its just cardboard. The issue is trying to make mtg an online game, because it makes it more global, which makes it more competitive and less varied, which means the huge playerbase of casual players becomes overly influenced by the competitive crowd who does this for a living, and they start competing for card slots, and they can't possibly exist in the same price range. On one hand, its not uncomfortable to buy into a deck thats up there in price for many people on a budget, it can be done with some saving up, but on the other hand, its a terrible rate to pay for most gameplay experiences. I'm not sure how to balance those two things in the same space
Prof: "Is modern accessible?" Ben: "Yes" zendikar's fetchlands: "Are we a joke to you?" Tarkir/onslaught fetchlands: "you guys are getting secret lair AND supplemental reprint!" Legacy players: "what's that? we cant hear you over the sound of the reserve list suffocating us and scaring away the people who we want to invite to join us to play in this very interesting format"
I get the notion that legacy is a forgotten format, but Ben seemed to suggest that the reserve list is "unnatural" and that we should get rid of it if we can. I smell corporate influence!
Ah, here I was working from home and thoroughly bored out of my skull, then my phone pings that Prof has uploaded fifty-odd minutes of content. *Happy MtG noises*
Modern and Splinter Twin have a very close place to my heart. And the reason I started doing MTG content myself is because I've been watching/listening to The Prof and the Masters of Modern for years now. SO THANK YOU for this. I needed it in such hard times.
Great pauper joke at the end. Similar to what you said for legacy aside from a unified ban list I think pauper doesn’t have to worry about much wotc involvement
Yeah I honestly don't agree with the take of "Modern is the set where I can play my old cards." Because there will always be a time, a time in the past, a time in the now, and a time in the future, where your old cards are a tier 3 deck that loses to everything. And you won't enjoy playing your old cards. So you'll do what you've always done, and get new cards. They didn't ban Merfolk, they didn't ban Goblins, but they don't compete with anything anymore. The real formats where you can play your favourite old cards, are EDH and Cube.
@@OninRuns exactly. Modern is a competitive format. Like proff could play his janky merfolk based on skill back then because the format was new. Not because it was some kind of golden days.
I see your pinned comment Professor, and I am fine with making this statement before watching anyway. I agree. Splinter Twin did nothing wrong. Banning for the sake of "interest" or "diversity" is wrong. Bans should only come when a card or combo proves to be particularly unanswerable.
I understand your point. What i dislike in modern is that every card you maybe once disliked in standard can be in this format. So i understand wotc reasoning behind this, however im not sure if i also agree with their decision
Hearing about your experience with Eldrazi Winter in particular makes me a bit more understand some of the... Not resentment, but at least apprehension at rotating formats, and their possible way to encroach not just in eternal format's construction, but the decision-making that comes to these. So if only for that, that was a pretty insightful episode!
2 of my favourite guests of Game Knights. Granted they are all pretty great guests. Me and my playgroup just play commander or with our 60 card decks... idk what the difference between modern and standard is, I dont even fully know what they are.
We know what two hoops brings...ROCK AND JOCK B-BALL JAM!!! The greatest version of basketball that can be played. Chess becomes a good analogy as well since the players are using the same pieces, but it does come down to the person behind the pieces like you said.
I love your point about the need for a stable format, particularly when you mentioned a pro player being the "master of Splinter Twin". I've never been able to afford Modern, and I'm the furthest thing from a pro, but I've always yearned for that kind of environment at a LGS: "I'm the Mono-Black Midrange guy, over there is Green Ramp Guy and his friend Goblin Gal, Splinter Twin Master and Affinity Dude are at the end of the table... Hey I wonder if Sargeant Superfriends is coming tonight?" That can only be a reality if you have 8-10 archetypes that stay viable for several years and don't get shaken up. Or I suppose if every single person in the LGS follows some kind of honor code, vowing to play THEIR signature style instead of the BDIF. Good luck with that.
This was a fantastically thought-out discussion, taking the "Splinter Twin did nothing wrong" meme to its inevitable conclusion and discussing the future of the format. Thanks to both of you for providing such interesting commentary about the best game in the world.
I usually don't post things on videos but i really enjoyed this one. The conversation was great and i truly enjoyed the way the conversation was had even if some parts of the history didn't get as much spotlight due to the length of the conversation as is. I started out as a standard + draft player back in innistrad/new phyrexia who then went into modern and finally ended up in legacy and played legacy only every week for a long time. I had played when i was younger around 4th, 5th edition and the last set i owned was probably stronghold back then. My feeling and thought is that wizards thinks that certain cards and their designs are "wrong" and that they never want to revisit that space again. Fetch lands represent a play pattern they dislike and old cards like aluren or food chain or dual lands or karakas or even cards like red elemental blast or hymn to tourach are just too "busted" and they do not want to revisit those cards. It seems to me that they don't mind people playing with these in commander or "kitchen table magic", but they would rather not revisit these cards in regular magic sets. I also believe they feel the same way about some of the stronger cards in modern such as thoughtseize and inquisition and that is why they have tried to not reprint these in standard sets and instead tried with their supplementary product straight into modern. With pioneer they had a chance to instead create a new format with the cards that have the "correct" play patterns and power level they want to use as the basis of the sets they create now and it gave them a chance to create a new environment that constantly changes and shifts and gives people a reason to buy cards again and revisit some of the older sets with more balanced powerlevel. But then again, i could just be totally wrong and this could be my contribution to all the other theories out there about why certain things don't seem to happen as often as we player think we should. Keep up the good work and stay safe everyone
I think Modern Horizons was interesting. It increased power levels in way that may not be obvious... but it allowed my Soul Sisters deck to stay competitive. Ranger-captain of EOS, Unearth and Generous Gift allowed me to do some silly/competitive things.
And they should.. I just believe we should make Free Commander, a commander variant where all reserved list, and products made for commander, are banned.. If it hasnt come from a pack, dont play it.
As someone who has heavily invested in reserved list cards for the purpose of playing Commander, AND after having many conversations weighing the pros and cons, I also advocate for the banning of the reserved list in Commander.
The simplest solution would be to have a third party not affiliated with WOTC that regulates the Banned and Restricted. That way the cards being banned would be the ones that are clearly causing the problem and would not be influenced by "what sells"
36:52 Exactly! 👏 It's not that 600-1000 dollars is "too much" money. The issue is that investing in a deck in a non-rotating format should be a relatively safe investment. As a player you want to know that your deck is viable over the years. Too many players complain about prices. If one does not have money for a hobby, then you shouldn't play. If you want to play but feel/think 600 dollars is "too much" money, your life priorities are out of whack and need retooling. There is no such thing as "too expensive", only too expensive for you. Everything is expensive when you're broke! 🤣 Wizards should remember that a non-rotating format should be a relatively safe place to park your money in MTG paper. Currently, I would argue they aren't seeing or addressing this issue, which explains the complaining over prices. Modern is a non-rotating format by definition. So there should be no engineering of the format through bannings.
That was an incredibly tone deaf comment. Do you even understand how hobbies work. Hobbies like magic require new product and change over time to bring interest for new customers and keep the playable games interesting and ever evolving for strategies. Magic has the ability to be less expensive through reprintings of popular cards and the printing of new interactions that alter major strategies. Is it wrong for players and WOTC to wish for the game to be more accessible to a larger frame of income bases? Also, I know exactly 0 people who play magic exclusively in Modern with only 1 minimally upgraded deck. An average deck price of $600-$700 will not provide enough magic entertainment for most people desiring more than one game a month. If you want to actually enjoy modern, you will likely need to budget $900-$1200 so that you have room to make 2-3 decks that share cards. Then if you want to play draft/standard cause new cards are cool, you should budget closer to $1100-$1500. Then magic players complain about people not joining their hobby.
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion about Modern, even though it is not a format I play. The one point that seems misguided by the Professor is his questioning of why Pioneer exists. I am a player that started at Shadows Over Innistrad. My card pool encompasses cards from that set forward with a smattering of Battle and Oath cards. I don’t want to buy a bunch of old, unfamiliar cards when I can play with the cards I already own, know, and enjoy. Pioneer is perfect for me. I know the Professor has been playing much longer than I have and I think he forgets the many Magic the Gathering players have not been playing so long. I love Pioneer and I am thankful it exists.
I agree on a lot of things that have been said in this video, around the first part of the video you were saying that Splinter Twin (taken as an example) was a deck that requires a plan to win, and I believe was one of the reason why I was loving that deck. That said, I agree even on the fact that modern should be a place to play your non rotating cards, and a play where the player and building experience matter more then cards. Modern does not have to shake after each set release, and the reason behind is that you want a place to build experience as a pilot, and maybe tuning your deck with some new card over time. But is the former that keep the interest high on me. I would like to have the pauper experience in modern :) Modern needs a pauper effect
14:03 I left and never looked back because of it. Excellent point. 23:35 Yeah, I had a control deck that leveraged CA and had a good Twin MU. It died due to being inable to deal with such insanely fast threats from eldrazitron. 40:30 Do you really believe that? I don't.
More and more in love with these untitled podcasts and even more in love with their endings 😂 Mr. Profesor, keep doing what you are doing, because it's AWESOME. Like the original modern (which i sadly don't remember due to my age 😪)
Great one, and great show. For me the issue for them is that Modern don't gives them the same money input because it depends more of a secondary market and they are trying to handle that in different ways (Modern Horizons, Secret Lair), already master sets do that for them but maybe is not how they want to be done for other reasons.
I picked up splinter twin late 2013 and played it until it got banned. I started with the RU shell with remands, twins, mana leaks, serum vision etc etc. But over the next 2 years before it got banned it saw a lot of changes, near the end I had a very fun time with two specific builds. One was a red white aggro twin build with resto, village bell ringer, blade splicer, and wall of omens. The removal/kill package was super solid with bolt, helix, and path. The other shell was RWU kiki control which actually didn't have any twins in main, but kept 2 in the side. There were a lot of different shells the twin combo could go into it just didn't develop yet. Were any of my brews good? Well, I was doing well at a local level and I remember the playing a brew of kiki control one week before someone top 8'd with it at a pt. That banning basically told me that my home is commander and cube. I've still got a couple of modern decks floating around ready to be rebuilt, but I would much rather prefer to sit around a table and play EDH.
Storytime!: I've been playing since innistrad standard, shifted to commander after a hiatus around 2014, been playing ever since. I've had the pleasure of watching the Modern metagame evolve over the years, at the same time my skills as a magic player have grown (not that I'm particularly good), and I was aware of the splinter twin ban. At the time I was like, "Yeah, that seems really busted". I'm not a terribly rich person, and any expensive cards I own I acquired before the magic boom following Kaladesh, and playing competitive modern is not a realistic goal for me. I recently, by the grace of a mutual friend, able to play properly tuned modern decks for the first time in my life. It's like when your friend knows someone who owns a Ferrari and they ask if you wanna take it for a spin. Pure elation! It was a unique experience and I was very thankful, but here is where the story is going. MODERN IS MADE BY THE PLAYERS. I was playing the most recent protour version of Jeskai stoneblade, and lost to dimir affinity EVERY SINGLE GAME. Granted while Jeskai Stoneblade isnt the most powerful deck in modern, and I played it in a Pre-Uro metagame, I couldn't translate my knowledge of the modern metagame, how to pilot the deck, and how to manage my resources into even a single win. Modern absolutely cannot play itself, and Splintertwin combo is no exception. Looking at the metagame now, splintertwin doesnt even seem so bad. In a metagame running rampant with Uroza combo and eldrazi Tron, would splintertwin kill the format? Stoneforge mystic apparently would spell the end of modern but the format is still here. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk.
I love this discussion. I find it a very interesting topic even if I have always been on the outside looking in on Modern. I would like to issue a counterpoint however to your critique on the state of Modern as a non-rotating format. I know a lot of what you're saying is to spark the conversation and engage the community in dialogue about the format and the structure of Wizard's approach to governing it. I don't take everything you say as exactly your opinion on the subject. Not wanting cards printed directly in to modern because you think it drastically impacts older decks and forces a pseudo rotation makes sense. However, if the point of playing a deck you like in an evergreen format is to play that deck, that is going to be a possibilty. You're always going to be afforded the opportunity to play Merfolk, regardless of current meta game standing. Format diversity doesn't play a factor into deck choice (even though it does when you're competing). If you love playing Merfolk, you can play Merfolk. The issue you're having is one of competitive advantage. It's not a matter of if you can play it, but can you win with it. Metas change and evolve over time no matter what happens. There is always going to be a trickle down effect from standard into Modern that incrementally shifts it into something new. That is the nature of an always evolving game. You're arguing that you always want your old cards to be viable, which is just not possible. In a competitive sense, to use the sports analogy, take a look at basketball. Over the years the value of having a three point shot has gone up. The game has placed value on a new skill set and as such other areas (like having a massive center to control the rim) are less desirable. That doesn't mean teams don't look at those positions or skillsets at all but have decided to look at the critical positions with higher regard. Adding cards directly into the format does a few things. It artificially stimulates the future growth of the format, engages the excitement of the player base, invents new strategies and fleshes out other sections of the meta that may have been over looked. New cards increase format diversity, not detract from it. Though the new cards may come in and dominate the format, they do not stop you as an individual from playing and enjoying the game by eliminating the deck you like playing. That strategy may not be as competitivly viable, something that may have happened regardless of the set. Bannings are usually the result of a lack of format diversity at the top end of the game. Those cards that are too good that playing anything else when trying to compete is impossible. Those bannings are trying to do the same thing that modern exclusive cards are, which is increasing the available card pool that are competitive. Modern Horizons, to me at least, should be a reprint heavy set with maybe a few new additions. Similar in scope to the Commander decks. I think the big issue I have and I completely agree with you on is the idea that Splinter Twin as a deck wasn't an issue. It was evergreen. But it wasn't oppressive. It was format defining. Not format warping. The other thing I take issue with Wizards on is that they seem to be making strategic moves for their bottom lines and not the formats themselves. Why did it take so long for the Oko and Hogaak bans? At the end of the day the formats are the lifeblood of the game, pack sales are not. You don't sell product if no one is playing your game. Fear of bannings and 'quickly' shifting metas has turn a lot of people away from a very interesting format. Wizards needs to communicate with the fans and talk through their process. That would go a long way in keeping the community engaged with and satisfied with the game (even if you can't satisfy everyone at the end of the day).
Maybe the answer is; - modern x; everything with just a few needed bans. - modern slim; bigger ban (possible also restriction) list - pioneer 1; everything since return to Ravnica - pioneer 2; everything since domeria or something
@@NathanJackLouttit as in cards have point to power level and a deck has a max of x points. That also sounds like a decent option. (Bit like netrunner)
"Playing a high level legacy deck against a high level modern deck probably doesn't feel that different" is honestly a statement that can only be made if you have very little understanding of what legacy is. Just because the card availability is similar doesnt mean the complexity of decision trees, and the meta are going to be similar. Even more evidenced by the statement that kind of blows over brainstorm as if its biggest reason is to just set up for delver.
I am a relatively new player as I started in guilds. I never liked standard with so many bans and such a small window of playable decks. A few months of playing kitchen table I found out about fnm through your channel trying to figure out how to play in a prerelease and for that I credit you with my love for modern as that was one of the first vids I saw. Since I started brewing I now play dredge and since found out about splinter twin. Looking into it more and my more extended knowledge I didn’t understand way it was banned as opposed to stuff like hogakk and oko from recent and in which I played semi competitively. So in truth SPLINTER TWIN DID NOTHING WRONG
I think a core reason for EDH's massive success over the years is because of its separation from wotc itself, the commander rules committee are solely motivated by making a fun experience for everyone to play, and because of it they aren't motivated by pack sales. IMO the best possible habitat for competitive magic is if a separate body were formed that regulated modern purely at the highest competitive level. Something like SCG or a similar organisation taking balance and bannings into its own hands.
My thoughts on Modern and Standard is that standard should have modern staples reprinted into it often and moreso than new cards be printed. If Standard had Snapcasters and Goyfs every couple years then we could see some fun interactive standard as well as see prices go down. The problem is when they say something like bolt or Snapcaster is too powerful for standard and then print an Oko or Teferi.
Splinter Twin was around when I was playing Magic the most, watching Magic the most, and spending the most on Magic. My old Standard cards weren't competitively viable in Modern, which is true for most old Standard cards, but the play patterns of Twin decks also meant that I wouldn't have any fun LOSING with my old cards. As such, Modern was not a place where I could still play with my cards after they rotated out of Standard with Twin in the format. I also hated watching Twin decks, so I stopped watching event coverage when Modern was the focus. From my perspective, Modern got significantly better when Twin was banned. I didn't have as much time to play Magic by then, so I still never played any Modern myself, but I was far more interested in following the metagame. I started watching and enjoying Modern coverage. It just became a more appealing format to me. Hell, as a spectator, I enjoyed watching Eldrazi Modern more than I ever enjoyed watching Twin matches (though maybe only because the Eldrazi stuff was only a few months as opposed to a few years). We haven't had much big Modern tournament coverage recently, so I can't comment much on my enjoyment of Modern in the last few years, but removing Twin seemed like it was all upside.
Bc of the prof, i bought mono U tron shortly after he made his video. Great financial decision, but more importantly it got me into modern. After the twin ban the local modern meta began to dwindle and currently is dead. Constant bans scare people away from the format. Banning twin was all for short term gain and has shown to be horrible for the life of the format.
42:25 "Playing a high level modern deck vs a high level Legacy deck doesnt feel too different" lol As someone who enjoys both formats I had to stop the video here and laugh pretty hard. Like... INSANELY hard! xD
Yeah, among other differences: -Freaking dual lands. Just try building the same decks with shocklands instead of duals and RDW will laugh at you when you're dead turn 3. -OP shit lands (like the eldrazi ones) ? Well, they'll often take a wasteland in the face. -Can't seriously compare a format where you can brainstorm+fetch or ponder with one whose best cantrip is Serum visions. -Force of Will, Daze,etc.... You have a wide choice of cheap/no-mana counters. Yep, that's why even turn 2/3 very consistent combo decks (S&T, Storm, Elves, etc..) will not break the format.
"its not that expensive" I think you have a very unrealistic definition of that word. 700 for a deck is very unrealistic for a large portion of the player base
I think the context of the discussion is important. I think the intend was "it's not that expensive compared to other formats". The median Pioneer deck probably isn't much cheaper than the median Modern deck
Alex Bauschke While I agree that 700 is very expensive Modern also isn’t really for a large portion of the player base that’s what standard is for, all the eternal formats exist to keep the enfranchised/pro players happy and engaged with the game long term.
Counterpoint to the Professor, I played from Scars of Mirrodin, and most of my old cards don't see play in Modern. Pioneer in theory does support the need for cards to have homes after they rotate, at least value wise, since it's expanding the pool of cards that are viable somewhere.
I put together Twin in its Grixis variation just after Origins came out. I loved playing the deck. So many times I just ended up shy of beating it that I finally decided I was gonna pick it up. A few weeks later it was banned.
![ค้าง (STILL) - GEMINI [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ftxx3hk5vkU/mqdefault.jpg)
Just to be clear for those posting before watching: this discussion is in no way advocating for a Splinter Twin unbanning. Rather, it is a discussion about how a philosophy of "ban cards for format diversity" may have been part of Modern's decline over the years. Hope you enjoy it. I think this is a real scintillating conversation. Oh, and also, it was filmed in The Before Times, which is how I am able to have an in person guest.
Lowfreq13 MD it wasn’t
@@daseinoseven4514 Clickbait? Do me a favor and leave me alone with this disrespectful, rude, and patronizing BS. This is an entire hour-long discussion where I literally, word for word, am saying "Splinter Twin Did Nothing Wrong." I was worried I said it too often. It's the premise of the entire video. It's a subject I care deeply about and one that has informed me and my views for literally half a decade now as I watch my once favorite format become a train wreck. I flew an expert Modern historian out to discuss these thoughts and ideas, to cover everything relating to "Splinter Twin Did Nothing Wrong" and you're going to sit back here and say "Clickbait. Disappointed in you." Well guess what? I am disappointed in you. Go read a book.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege an MD is no match for the professor, he stepped into the wrong ring
Unban splinter twin and paradox engine
If you won't, I will then: Splinter Twin deserves to be off the list. Same for Birthing Pod. Make Modern fun again.
Thinking about how they banned Bridge instead of Hogaak, everyone responded with "What? Why?", and then the deck was still amazing. Now, with Lurrus, people are genuinely saying "Maybe we should ban Bauble instead of the new card," and I'm sitting here like, "Have we learned nothing?"
There is a difference. Bauble is being used in other strong decks like urza where they are also being broken, where bridge wasn't good in any top tier decks other than in hogaak.
Once they realized that Bridge want the issue, they should have unbanned Bridge when they banned Hogaak.
The company that prints cards should NOT be the same company that determines bannings.
Wim De Cock bauble wasn’t being spammed in every deck in modern... it’s not a simples “zero mana cantrip” that may fit in every deck. Bauble isn’t the problem. If not bauble, lurrus decks will spam explosives and chalices... and the problem will keep existing.
There's no way they would ban Hogaak while the set was still in allocation. Just like Oko happened to be banned in Standard only after Eldraine already sold to all stores.
Dont get me wrong lurrus is strong, but you can interact with lurrus, lurrus doesnt goes infinite or big enough to win, and there is deck restriction to play it, and still you only get 1 copy, so i dont think you need to worry about it
Unfortunately, Modern has become prohibitively expensive because you need fetchlands to play at the right speed and they have unofficially put fetchlands on the reserve list.
@Proton some times i wish that buying proxies was legal
That's one of the reasons I bought Amulet Titan two years ago. The deck was relatively inexpensive at the time and it doesn't run any fetches at all. Unfortunately, the metagame progressed to the point where I would need to spend almost a hundred additional dollars if I wanted to run the current Amulet list that has performed the best (with a Karn, Great Creator package). Imagine if I had bought Once Upon a Time for 10 dollars x 4 or even Oko at 30 bucks because it was an auto-include in Amulet Titan only to have them immediately banned....
@Proton honestly I just play on tabletop sim,
I absolutely hate how this company shits on their consumer base
I'm fairly new to MTG and to be honest, I don't play anything except EDH and draft because of the cost. Some of my commander decks are now 400$ worth, but it was gradually increased over time and by luck (opening a Jace in a booster). But when I see Modern prices, I just find that too expensive to invest in. 600$ for a deck? F* that, i prefer buying another precon and do something with it over time. The manabase is one of the biggest problem and they don't seem really keen to address it in any way sufficient for the new players.
@@clementdallaire6254 i would argue that you are safer investing in commander or pauper than modern. Unless wizards starts going for pauper you won't have any issues, and commander is managed by a different company for their bans , so we don't have wotc not letting stuff get banned there.
WOTC: Prints Modern Horizons to avoid putting overly powerful cards into Standard
Also WOTC: Puts Oko into Standard
WotC: Fetchlands create a bad Standard environment, the manabases become too good and there's too much shuffling
Also WotC: Prints Fabled Passage into Standard
Oko isn't actually that strong. He's just annoying.
@@bobby45825 "Oko isn't actually that strong. He's just annoying." Excuse me what? Did your analizyng skills got turned into an elk or what?!
@@bobby45825 for a name with Dr in the title, you sure dont know much.
That "avoid putting overly powerful cards into Standard" arguement is just a joke at this point.
WAR was already more powerful then MH1.
Between Splinter Twin banning and Eldrazi Winter I was like screw WOTC I’ll just play edh. Now I’m concerned they will screw up edh with Commander Legends.
All commander legends should and only be essential reprints for the format, but sadly it won’t
They have already screwed up Commander as a format with partners. EDH was best like, when modern, cards were not developed specifically for it. Sure, before WotC created commander there were a handful of legendary cards or what have you in standard that you could tell someone in R&D designed because they loved EDH, but it's been nothing like since they first starting making pre-con decks. Most of the EDH community is dreading Commander Legends to a degree. We'll have to see. If it's more like Battlebond and less like MH1 I think it could be good.
@@LC-wv7tz Yeah, the Commander Commanders warped the format entirely. The only legendary creature from the before-times that still keeps up with the cards designed specifically for Commander is Zur--and that's only because it was designed to go ham with Necropotence. To your point, partners were the apotheosis of people who should really be playing Canadian Highlander turning their gaze toward Commander--and I don't view that as a good thing.
Also +1 for dreading Commander legends. Let me play my jank, Wizards.
Wizards want to ruin everyones experience if there is some Money to make.
As soon as the eye of WOTC fell on Commander it was doomed!
37:36 - I really can't say I agree with Ben's point here. Trying "accessibility" to the likelihood that your deck will get banned is an odd metric, particularly given how many decks have been banned recently. Modern still relies on plenty of potentially problematic cards, like Stirrings, Astrolabe, and Urza, at the highest tiers of play. If we're using bans to measure accessibility...how can we possibly say that Modern is "accessible" as a result? If you're worried about your deck getting banned, this is probably the worst time, ever, to play Modern.
Case in point - we sit here now debating how many of the new companions are going to have to go in Modern. I know we can't blame Ben here for hindsight fueled observations he wasn't capable of predicting...but my point is that I think we likely could have predicted something like this, given Modern's recent track record. Bans for Modern have become a game of whack-a-mole, and the format has been completely unstable as a result.
Furthermore...it shouldn't necessarily be the case that you need to have some massive prerequisite amount of information about the format to know which decks are "safe" and which ones aren't. Requiring this kind of experienced consideration, in order to avoid getting burned financially, is the exact opposite concept as "accessibility". It is not friendly to a beginner excited about the format and picking up their first deck. They have to be careful about picking up a deck that's good...but not "too good". They have to be careful about not picking up a deck that uses cards that have caused problems in other decks they aren't even aware of (like Astrolabe). And so on.
Experienced players may know what decks are safe, but a non-zero amount of beginners picked up Arclight, due to how many Standard cards overlapped with it, and were annihilated from orbit via very heavy-handed bans. A lot of those folks aren't coming back, and this is a train that definitely hasn't stopped in Modern.
Bans are a real issue in modern due to the massive financial investment required. Thus, I would say that bans being absolutely devastating to players in modern is a symptom of the real problem which is the egregious exploitation of the secondary market by Wizards.
I think the sports analogy is a perfect representation of how modern should have been. I can watch reid duke play jund a thousand times and still enjoy it because watching him play that deck and listening to his lines of play are incredible. Modern should be more about the pilot and their skill level than the decks themselves.
I mean, we have pauper at least till wotc fucks it up hard.
@@natanaru don't tempt them
@@xChikyx Its not like i needed to LUL
@@natanaru pauper masters incoming
Except that the NBA was boring, so they added a shotclock. Or Wilt Chamberlain existed and was just taller than everyone, so they added Goaltending as a rule.
I played when Twin was still in Modern, and it really wasn’t that much of an issue even then. Was the deck good? Yes. Were there several other decks that could balance it out at the time? Yes.
Give them the cards that have been printed since then, along with the environment that has been built in modern since then, honestly Twin would probably not be that bad at all if it were to be unbanned now.
I doubt it could be much higher than a tier 2 deck at best.
I think it would be the same as Saheeli Cat Combo or Kiki Exarch at the momentan.
Twin wouldn't be that big of a Problem at the Moment.
It's important to note that it kept degenerate decks in check, and rewarded people that played fairer decks.
Twin would absolutely be a problem at this point. Teferi, Time Raveler, Force of Negation, Flusterstorm, and Veil of Summer along with perfect 4-5c mana bases guarantee that Twin would be FAR more powerful than it previously was.
@@Fireslingerpirate You're totally right, then again, I would argue the main problems are Time Raveler and Veil of Summer themselves.
"You can comfortably buy humans".
Wait a minute...
slavery is wrong :p
@@armandowilliams7520 But Mindslaver is Legal.
I think he means nothing from the deck is getting banned anytime soon
"How much does humans cost?" :D
@@GaianEntertainment 'bout tree fiddy.
15:44 thats so true! The reason why i still watch Nikachu and Reid Duke. And i always enjoy watching them when they play their pet Decks.
Even if dude was right about the price, $600 is NOT accessible!
A Hobby eats money i have 5000€ in modern cards but i dont think that is to mutch and its just 70€ a month over jears
@@pascalraskal9347 yea no buddy. There is no way to spin it ass accessible. That much money for cardboard is too much.
Other hobbies might eat money but other hobbies that eat money aren't cardboard. If I collect vintage cars, in the end to the day, I have vintage cars.
@@DimT670 the proper price for cardboard is a different discussion from is the hobby accessible, magic is the baby of board games and stamp collecting of course its pieces arent worth their value in a tangible sense. from a functional sense its in the under 1000 dollar hobby category which means its inherently accessible, but instead of saving up for a decent guitar youre going to buy it 2 grains of wood at a time
To proxy or not to proxy, that is the question.
Imagine thinking $600 is accessible
a month or so before the splinter twin banning. i had just picked up the cards to play it. so i moved ontoa jeskai control deck. It had all the tools, and snapcasters too. somehow the format became too fast for a deck full of answers and 2 for 1/s. it feels like whoever can slap down their cards first wins now. there is little back and forth.
Tessa Seward Used to be pretty interactive. I agree
At least you had a month with your deck. I made it in paper and online and it was a week until it got banned... Never went back into magic since and don't regret it. I'm not stupid and keep giving them money.
There was a poor soul at my lgs that bought into standard with an oko deck. Then after the banning, he switched to modern to play with his friends. He chose to buy into affinity because it had been around so long...he doesn't play magic anymore.
Idk why this made me laugh
Now this was an excellent discussion.
Great video prof
Tha ks
Nice Schmoedown plug. If you love movies or trivia, highly recommend. It's wonderful and engaging.
I love that they’re dressed so crisply. But no shoes.
He is in his own house, why would he be wearing shoes?
Both of them usually are fancy dressed like this. And the carpet in the studio calls for no shoes ;)
Thats Mr. Shmodown Champion Ben "The Boss" Bateman!
Hogaak was so broken that someone 5-0'd a legacy league with a direct 75 modern version.
I remember someone doing something similar with splinter twin at a large legacy tournament (possibly GP, i can't remember)
@@abrahamdrinkin2534 yes, both jund and sultai turbogaak exist, as well as hogaak depths
Abraham Drinkin yes as a combination with depths combo
@@abrahamdrinkin2534 Four months later: Legacy Hogaak is one of the decks to beat. The only cards not being in a Modern legal set are Careful Study, Cabal Therapy and dual lands.
There seems to be a second arguement that Modern Horizons has hurt the format
WHICH EVERYONE SAID WOULD HAPPEN
I think the reason behind this is Standard. It works like a filter. Maybe because it is possible to play test better ... Should be possible to test all interactions there.
This is not possible for Modern and Commander.
It was the professors idea originally to come out with a set like this lmao
it was only like 10 cards that shaped tier 1 play. if they were replaced with high demand reprints and included all the fetches it would have been perfect. i love having the old cycle lands in modern as well as some other cards. modern horizons + mystic sanctuary made blue moon playable. same with goblin matron. elevating low tier/unplayable to mid tier should have been the goal +maybe reprints +maybe draft experience
"If you play modern now you have to go but standard booster packs" As true a statement today as it has ever been
This discussion seems relevant after the eSports episode at present. If a deck like Splinter Twin was able to be a constant presence at Pro Events, then commentary could be crafted around "look at Player X and how well they pilot Splinter Twin vs Player Y, who is a Blue Moon master." I think there is a lot to take from this and that episode, overall I wish broadcasted Magic could be as good as I know it could be
cool to see Ben again on your channel prof !:)
"600$ isnt prohibitively expensive"
how can anybody say that???? that's crazy!!!!
Average standard is $100-250 spend that 2-3 times a year you could have had a modern deck. But to each there own on preference.
@@garygarrison594 if you have to save up for a year to buy something non-essential, its expensive. that stack of cardboard and ink is double the cost of a nintendo switch.
@@DeciduousClouds Again though it is about the comparison point. I'm just jumping back into Magic as my main game and as such I've decided to focus on Pioneer and Commander with Arena being my Standard card fun (and I'll build a Standard deck here and there when the boosters and timing align).
Grixis Control Pioneer: ~$450 if I built it cheaper, $500 w/ the alt-art Nicol-Bolas
Sliver Commander: ~$375
Meren Commander: ~$350
These are the good local store decks. cEDH has much more expensive decks and Pioneer has ~$700 decks that are competitive. Standard, by comparison, is $300-$600 if we ignore RDW and Green Stompy when those are strong. So if we assume his $600 estimate was right (it wasn't) then for an enthusiast Modern is approachable to a degree; however, I don't know how you can really come into Modern and for me Pioneer has more cards I have an attraction to and could very well wind up seeing similar decks eventually. I mean look at his Grixis Shadows example.... that is pretty much what my Grixis Pioneer deck is also looking at doing just with more Bolas flavor.
well tbh if u are only playing locally you don't really need all 4 caverns of souls or dare I say any at all. so that gets rid of 250 of the cost. The rest of the deck is just 350, and you could always cut 1 hierarch and 1 aether vial to get it down to under 300. which is the cost of a standard deck that'll be worth nothing In 2 years' time, while your aether vials and hierarchs are still worth big bucks along with other cards like thalia. it isn't spending the money per se, because the magic cards still have a high value. so it can be looked at as an investment. or you can just play pauper, cuz that format is fucking awesome and super cheap.
Excellent episode Prof. I'm relatively new to modern and really wish I could have played in times before these discussed events, and just experienced its history in genral first-hand. I love the format and totally agree with Ben that it is the best format in Magic.
This was my favorite interview in this type of format for a video you have done. Really great discussion about the modern history that I lack much knowledge of at all. If I could understand it, anyone can.
"you probably can pretty comfortably buy humans"
Ben Bateman, 2020
"How much does humans cost?"
The Prof, 2020
Prof, recently, you have been the warrior we need to defend against wizards of the coast destroying our wonderful game
no he is the warrior against Hasbro they are the real problem
You do great work. I appreciate the fact that you're constantly putting your connections to Wizards on the line every time you press them on issues they seem to want to gloss over.
I used to keep Rakdos Charm in my sideboard to deal with splinter twin.
That sure is a lot of creatures you have there.
Would be a shame if you *died.*
There is an achievement in COD modern warfare called Assisted Suicide.
Playing splinter twin made me a better magic player. Piloting that deck taught me more about magic than any article, podcast, video, stream or event IRL. It also made for some of the best magic memories I have. I played against burn and got down to 4 life. EOT played my copy of exarch, untapped and played twin on it. Went for the combo and an opponent played a destructive revelry on it. I cast a second exarch in my hand and comboed off with the revelry on the stack. That win was probably my favorite ever. Having such an interactive deck, for me, was the best magic experience ever.
The same thing could be said for birthing pod. Tool box decks aren't broken themselves. Oko, Underworld Breach, Hogg'ak, and Uzra are breaking modern.
Fair decks are fair. Tool box decks are fair.
Pod *was* fair. If Pod was unbanned it would be a Combo deck where one resolved creature would instantly lose you the game due to there being more untap effects at every CMC
Seto Kaiba Played a deck full of hand disruption, birthing pod definitely wasn’t a problem for me at the time lol
pod is no longer fair because feladar garidan. it lets you kill on the same turn you play it with any creather.
29:51
@@swiftdragonrider It's very unlikely it does so before turn 4. It's 6 mana to play and activate pod twice. Doable by turn 3, but quite difficult because you have to get a 3 drop in play on turn 2 that adds mana. There aren't many of those being played.
I love Masters of Modern, i appreciate you working with Ben and Kess!
For me modern is a Format of Favorites. I can ALWAYS build a Deck where i build around one or more of my Favorite Cards and If i learn to play it right. I performed great at modern Double ups on GPs with Splinterfright and Huntmaster of the Fells. Those cards are not unfair.
I wish that Modern would have started with Ravnica: City of Guilds. This would have worked in a few ways:
* Ravnica marked the end of white-bordered cards, meaning that every card legal in this Modern has a printing with the post-Scourge frame and with a black border (without needing to be foil, buy-a-box exclusives not withstanding).
* In addition to the frame aesthetics, all legal cards would have colored mana symbols in text boxes. It would lack the similarity between the white cards and artifact cards that was seen in 8th, Mirrodin and Darksteel.
* All legal cards with a type Aura would be up-to-date, as opposed to "Enchant _____".
* Not including the 8th, 9th, Mirrodin and Kamigawa blocks would eliminate the need for nearly half the banned list (17 cards in total)
Granted, these things wouldn't necessarily fix the current state of Modern, but I think it would have made for a much different environment.
Lmao are you a nerd who gets triggered by white border cards?
@@steveng6721 Not triggered, but a method of a natural cutoff point similar to choosing the modern frame of 8th as the cutoff for modern, or the even newer frame version (with collector info and Beleren font) as the cutoff point for Pioneer's predecessor, Frontier.
At one point there were talks that modern format would have included cards all the way back to Masques, since it was the first set not to have cards in the reserve list.
The point is that the cutoff is subjective, and a different cutoff could have resulted in a format that stayed much healthier for much longer.
I love Modern and Ben was a great guest. He brought a lot of useful historical context to this discussion. I also miss my Affinity deck (Urza, sigh) and worry that WotC have lost the plot. Thanks again, Prof. This discussion couldn't be more relevant given our current climate ... maybe a companion piece to follow?
Ben Bateman: "Modern is accessible!"
Modern: "This deck costs an ENTIRE RENT and you may or may not enjoy it"
You also should be accepting of the fact that cards you’ve had for years that cost hundreds of dollars will get banned and become worthless over night... 👌
TheDanisaur I mean generally you can tell what will be banned at some point, you put yourself at risk if you play cards with that risk
What an amazing discussion on modern! I want to get back in the format, I stopped when Splinter was banned lol
Ben is such a sober person. I love how he draws you into facts over and over. Thank you so much for bringing him into your fantastic podcast
That ending, HAHAHA!
Ben Bateman, you were incredibly fun to watch. Very eloquent and put together. I am going to go subscribe to your channel because of your ability to converse in a calm manner.
“Free spells, extra cards and everything else is a 3/3 elk!” - WoTC 2020
I remember when Modern was a non-rotating format. What a time.
I feel like a Splinter Twin player now that Mox Opal is gone. I remember playing a Magic on my Xbox. My favorite deck was one with the affinity mechanic. It played Etched Champion. When I heard that it was a competitive deck a couple of years later in modern, I had to build that deck.
But now the old must pay for the sins of the new. I'm on board with the Professor on Horizons now.
I have a Modern Goryo deck on my shelf that doesn't see much play these days, and my old Splinter Twin cards are in a box. I'm hoping to one day sling with them again. The nostalgia in this episode is real. - Spencer of CC
In my opinion, modern horizon should have been mainly reprint with the rest being new card that complet cycle (like the talisman)
THE ENDING LMAOOOO
The first format I ever made a deck adhere to was modern, it just makes sense as a starting player. I had been playing unstructured kitchen table magic for a few months, with some new cards and some cards from people's old collections being passed around. When I learned about formats I thought it made sense to have a legally playable deck, even though I had no concept of meta or competitive power levels, so I slightly modified my illusions deck to be legal in modern. Today the deck is much better and still legal, but its never really seen play against any of the common modern decks in any meta. It's basically a kitchen table magic deck that happens to be modern, its probably low tier, but its good enough to beat other casual decks, and I have a lot of fun with it. This seems to align exactly with your idea that modern is a format for non rotating, non reserve cards. I didn't want to have to keep up with anything, so all I did was remove the really old cards. I like that kind of simple magic, I'm not sure how common that kind of introduction to the game is anymore, certainly no one at all gets that kind of experience on arena
It seems to me the best way to balance decks and encourage brewing is to tier decks based on the demand of the cards which comprise them, ie: monetary cost tiers. Yes it's dynamic and therefore hard to determine exactly the impact, just like the card pool itself, it's not a problem as it's not introducing randomness, it's matching it. The issue is with implementation feasibility, and that the structure of dynamic tiers kind of conflicts with the structure of banning and formats, though you could have one inside the other
I tend to agree with you that I don't want rotations and shake-ups in expensive decks, though its interesting to take this and compare it to the video game world. Video game consoles rotate out, mostly for no reason other than to shake things up so people will buy more, and those run around $500. The individual consumers may not want rotation, but the amorphous mass of consumer wants it, or at least they reward it. The problem runs deeper than magic, consumer bases can't voice their opinions as a whole, they can only mindlessly consume until their food source runs dry, and so the only ones left to feed them are people who are secretly feeding off them
I don't understand how people can say $600-$900 is accessible in general, to the majority. Maybe if you spend your whole life playing magic, you make your living off magic, or you have tons of disposable income. Maybe if you're playing tournaments with big cash prizes, but I think most people play magic as a board game or video game replacement. And that price does NOT stack up at all. I paid probably $20 for settlers of catan, 20 years ago, and have gotten a comparable amount of human hours of enjoyable gameplay out of it to the hundreds of dollars I have spent on magic overall. The rate I pay for video games is about $1 for every 10 hours of gameplay, still significantly higher than most board games, but a very good rate. Sure, its not a completely ridiculous out of the park life expense to pay, but for most people mtg is not a life expense, its just cardboard. The issue is trying to make mtg an online game, because it makes it more global, which makes it more competitive and less varied, which means the huge playerbase of casual players becomes overly influenced by the competitive crowd who does this for a living, and they start competing for card slots, and they can't possibly exist in the same price range. On one hand, its not uncomfortable to buy into a deck thats up there in price for many people on a budget, it can be done with some saving up, but on the other hand, its a terrible rate to pay for most gameplay experiences. I'm not sure how to balance those two things in the same space
Very nice conversation gentlemen. Lots to think about and discuss for sure. I wish I could wrap my head around all of it.
Prof: "Is modern accessible?"
Ben: "Yes"
zendikar's fetchlands: "Are we a joke to you?"
Tarkir/onslaught fetchlands: "you guys are getting secret lair AND supplemental reprint!"
Legacy players: "what's that? we cant hear you over the sound of the reserve list suffocating us and scaring away the people who we want to invite to join us to play in this very interesting format"
I get the notion that legacy is a forgotten format, but Ben seemed to suggest that the reserve list is "unnatural" and that we should get rid of it if we can.
I smell corporate influence!
Quite possibly the best video you have ever made professor. I agree completely. I've had this same discussion millions of times about this topic.
Ah, here I was working from home and thoroughly bored out of my skull, then my phone pings that Prof has uploaded fifty-odd minutes of content. *Happy MtG noises*
Love it or hate it, Eldrazi Winter was the most memorable pro tour I've ever watched. I kind of enjoyed it.
Seeing Frank Lepore finally get his shot to roll all the way to the top was crazy exciting
I completely agree. The PT was one of the most exciting I've ever seen. The GPs that followed were fairly miserable.
I remember people being hype on what the best Eldrazi build would be. We got so many surprises.
Modern and Splinter Twin have a very close place to my heart. And the reason I started doing MTG content myself is because I've been watching/listening to The Prof and the Masters of Modern for years now. SO THANK YOU for this. I needed it in such hard times.
Great pauper joke at the end. Similar to what you said for legacy aside from a unified ban list I think pauper doesn’t have to worry about much wotc involvement
Hot take: Cube is the future of the 60 card casual "I can play any cards from magic's history" format.
Yeah I honestly don't agree with the take of "Modern is the set where I can play my old cards." Because there will always be a time, a time in the past, a time in the now, and a time in the future, where your old cards are a tier 3 deck that loses to everything. And you won't enjoy playing your old cards. So you'll do what you've always done, and get new cards. They didn't ban Merfolk, they didn't ban Goblins, but they don't compete with anything anymore.
The real formats where you can play your favourite old cards, are EDH and Cube.
@@OninRuns exactly. Modern is a competitive format. Like proff could play his janky merfolk based on skill back then because the format was new. Not because it was some kind of golden days.
All I can think of while watching this video is that Ben looks like a vampire.
I've always thought that. First time I saw him I said "this dude is a vampire."
I see your pinned comment Professor, and I am fine with making this statement before watching anyway. I agree. Splinter Twin did nothing wrong. Banning for the sake of "interest" or "diversity" is wrong. Bans should only come when a card or combo proves to be particularly unanswerable.
I understand your point. What i dislike in modern is that every card you maybe once disliked in standard can be in this format. So i understand wotc reasoning behind this, however im not sure if i also agree with their decision
It might be because I watch these at 1.5 speed, but I love how passionate and intense Prof gets here, true champion of the people.
Hearing about your experience with Eldrazi Winter in particular makes me a bit more understand some of the... Not resentment, but at least apprehension at rotating formats, and their possible way to encroach not just in eternal format's construction, but the decision-making that comes to these. So if only for that, that was a pretty insightful episode!
I find it kinda funny how the most stable solid deck that won't get banned is the most expensive in jund, God i love jund though
2 of my favourite guests of Game Knights.
Granted they are all pretty great guests.
Me and my playgroup just play commander or with our 60 card decks... idk what the difference between modern and standard is, I dont even fully know what they are.
I'm not into modern, but I love you and Ben, so I'm watching! Now Let's Get Ready to Schmoedown!
We know what two hoops brings...ROCK AND JOCK B-BALL JAM!!! The greatest version of basketball that can be played.
Chess becomes a good analogy as well since the players are using the same pieces, but it does come down to the person behind the pieces like you said.
I'm so glad someone else remembers Rock and Jock. That was the first thing I thought of when he mentioned 2 hoops.
I love your point about the need for a stable format, particularly when you mentioned a pro player being the "master of Splinter Twin". I've never been able to afford Modern, and I'm the furthest thing from a pro, but I've always yearned for that kind of environment at a LGS: "I'm the Mono-Black Midrange guy, over there is Green Ramp Guy and his friend Goblin Gal, Splinter Twin Master and Affinity Dude are at the end of the table... Hey I wonder if Sargeant Superfriends is coming tonight?"
That can only be a reality if you have 8-10 archetypes that stay viable for several years and don't get shaken up. Or I suppose if every single person in the LGS follows some kind of honor code, vowing to play THEIR signature style instead of the BDIF. Good luck with that.
This video gave me a new understanding of Modern, I really like the way this stuff was put
This was a fantastically thought-out discussion, taking the "Splinter Twin did nothing wrong" meme to its inevitable conclusion and discussing the future of the format. Thanks to both of you for providing such interesting commentary about the best game in the world.
Recognize the Schmoedown Champion Prof!!
What a time to have this discussion, with all the Companion stuff happening
I usually don't post things on videos but i really enjoyed this one. The conversation was great and i truly enjoyed the way the conversation was had even if some parts of the history didn't get as much spotlight due to the length of the conversation as is.
I started out as a standard + draft player back in innistrad/new phyrexia who then went into modern and finally ended up in legacy and played legacy only every week for a long time. I had played when i was younger around 4th, 5th edition and the last set i owned was probably stronghold back then.
My feeling and thought is that wizards thinks that certain cards and their designs are "wrong" and that they never want to revisit that space again. Fetch lands represent a play pattern they dislike and old cards like aluren or food chain or dual lands or karakas or even cards like red elemental blast or hymn to tourach are just too "busted" and they do not want to revisit those cards. It seems to me that they don't mind people playing with these in commander or "kitchen table magic", but they would rather not revisit these cards in regular magic sets. I also believe they feel the same way about some of the stronger cards in modern such as thoughtseize and inquisition and that is why they have tried to not reprint these in standard sets and instead tried with their supplementary product straight into modern.
With pioneer they had a chance to instead create a new format with the cards that have the "correct" play patterns and power level they want to use as the basis of the sets they create now and it gave them a chance to create a new environment that constantly changes and shifts and gives people a reason to buy cards again and revisit some of the older sets with more balanced powerlevel.
But then again, i could just be totally wrong and this could be my contribution to all the other theories out there about why certain things don't seem to happen as often as we player think we should.
Keep up the good work and stay safe everyone
I think Modern Horizons was interesting. It increased power levels in way that may not be obvious... but it allowed my Soul Sisters deck to stay competitive.
Ranger-captain of EOS, Unearth and Generous Gift allowed me to do some silly/competitive things.
Hot take: The reserved list doesn't make Legacy unaccessible, Commander not banning all reserved list cards does.
And they should..
I just believe we should make Free Commander, a commander variant where all reserved list, and products made for commander, are banned.. If it hasnt come from a pack, dont play it.
As someone who has heavily invested in reserved list cards for the purpose of playing Commander, AND after having many conversations weighing the pros and cons, I also advocate for the banning of the reserved list in Commander.
The simplest solution would be to have a third party not affiliated with WOTC that regulates the Banned and Restricted. That way the cards being banned would be the ones that are clearly causing the problem and would not be influenced by "what sells"
36:52 Exactly! 👏
It's not that 600-1000 dollars is "too much" money. The issue is that investing in a deck in a non-rotating format should be a relatively safe investment. As a player you want to know that your deck is viable over the years.
Too many players complain about prices. If one does not have money for a hobby, then you shouldn't play. If you want to play but feel/think 600 dollars is "too much" money, your life priorities are out of whack and need retooling. There is no such thing as "too expensive", only too expensive for you. Everything is expensive when you're broke! 🤣
Wizards should remember that a non-rotating format should be a relatively safe place to park your money in MTG paper. Currently, I would argue they aren't seeing or addressing this issue, which explains the complaining over prices.
Modern is a non-rotating format by definition. So there should be no engineering of the format through bannings.
That was an incredibly tone deaf comment. Do you even understand how hobbies work. Hobbies like magic require new product and change over time to bring interest for new customers and keep the playable games interesting and ever evolving for strategies. Magic has the ability to be less expensive through reprintings of popular cards and the printing of new interactions that alter major strategies. Is it wrong for players and WOTC to wish for the game to be more accessible to a larger frame of income bases?
Also, I know exactly 0 people who play magic exclusively in Modern with only 1 minimally upgraded deck. An average deck price of $600-$700 will not provide enough magic entertainment for most people desiring more than one game a month. If you want to actually enjoy modern, you will likely need to budget $900-$1200 so that you have room to make 2-3 decks that share cards. Then if you want to play draft/standard cause new cards are cool, you should budget closer to $1100-$1500. Then magic players complain about people not joining their hobby.
I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion about Modern, even though it is not a format I play. The one point that seems misguided by the Professor is his questioning of why Pioneer exists. I am a player that started at Shadows Over Innistrad. My card pool encompasses cards from that set forward with a smattering of Battle and Oath cards. I don’t want to buy a bunch of old, unfamiliar cards when I can play with the cards I already own, know, and enjoy. Pioneer is perfect for me. I know the Professor has been playing much longer than I have and I think he forgets the many Magic the Gathering players have not been playing so long. I love Pioneer and I am thankful it exists.
Love the socks, Prof
I always really enjoy these discussion videos.
I agree on a lot of things that have been said in this video, around the first part of the video you were saying that Splinter Twin (taken as an example) was a deck that requires a plan to win, and I believe was one of the reason why I was loving that deck.
That said, I agree even on the fact that modern should be a place to play your non rotating cards, and a play where the player and building experience matter more then cards.
Modern does not have to shake after each set release, and the reason behind is that you want a place to build experience as a pilot, and maybe tuning your deck with some new card over time. But is the former that keep the interest high on me.
I would like to have the pauper experience in modern :) Modern needs a pauper effect
14:03 I left and never looked back because of it. Excellent point.
23:35 Yeah, I had a control deck that leveraged CA and had a good Twin MU. It died due to being inable to deal with such insanely fast threats from eldrazitron.
40:30 Do you really believe that? I don't.
More and more in love with these untitled podcasts and even more in love with their endings 😂 Mr. Profesor, keep doing what you are doing, because it's AWESOME. Like the original modern (which i sadly don't remember due to my age 😪)
Great one, and great show.
For me the issue for them is that Modern don't gives them the same money input because it depends more of a secondary market and they are trying to handle that in different ways (Modern Horizons, Secret Lair), already master sets do that for them but maybe is not how they want to be done for other reasons.
I picked up splinter twin late 2013 and played it until it got banned. I started with the RU shell with remands, twins, mana leaks, serum vision etc etc. But over the next 2 years before it got banned it saw a lot of changes, near the end I had a very fun time with two specific builds. One was a red white aggro twin build with resto, village bell ringer, blade splicer, and wall of omens. The removal/kill package was super solid with bolt, helix, and path. The other shell was RWU kiki control which actually didn't have any twins in main, but kept 2 in the side. There were a lot of different shells the twin combo could go into it just didn't develop yet. Were any of my brews good? Well, I was doing well at a local level and I remember the playing a brew of kiki control one week before someone top 8'd with it at a pt.
That banning basically told me that my home is commander and cube. I've still got a couple of modern decks floating around ready to be rebuilt, but I would much rather prefer to sit around a table and play EDH.
Storytime!:
I've been playing since innistrad standard, shifted to commander after a hiatus around 2014, been playing ever since. I've had the pleasure of watching the Modern metagame evolve over the years, at the same time my skills as a magic player have grown (not that I'm particularly good), and I was aware of the splinter twin ban. At the time I was like, "Yeah, that seems really busted". I'm not a terribly rich person, and any expensive cards I own I acquired before the magic boom following Kaladesh, and playing competitive modern is not a realistic goal for me. I recently, by the grace of a mutual friend, able to play properly tuned modern decks for the first time in my life. It's like when your friend knows someone who owns a Ferrari and they ask if you wanna take it for a spin. Pure elation! It was a unique experience and I was very thankful, but here is where the story is going. MODERN IS MADE BY THE PLAYERS. I was playing the most recent protour version of Jeskai stoneblade, and lost to dimir affinity EVERY SINGLE GAME. Granted while Jeskai Stoneblade isnt the most powerful deck in modern, and I played it in a Pre-Uro metagame, I couldn't translate my knowledge of the modern metagame, how to pilot the deck, and how to manage my resources into even a single win. Modern absolutely cannot play itself, and Splintertwin combo is no exception. Looking at the metagame now, splintertwin doesnt even seem so bad. In a metagame running rampant with Uroza combo and eldrazi Tron, would splintertwin kill the format? Stoneforge mystic apparently would spell the end of modern but the format is still here. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk.
I love this discussion. I find it a very interesting topic even if I have always been on the outside looking in on Modern.
I would like to issue a counterpoint however to your critique on the state of Modern as a non-rotating format. I know a lot of what you're saying is to spark the conversation and engage the community in dialogue about the format and the structure of Wizard's approach to governing it. I don't take everything you say as exactly your opinion on the subject.
Not wanting cards printed directly in to modern because you think it drastically impacts older decks and forces a pseudo rotation makes sense. However, if the point of playing a deck you like in an evergreen format is to play that deck, that is going to be a possibilty. You're always going to be afforded the opportunity to play Merfolk, regardless of current meta game standing. Format diversity doesn't play a factor into deck choice (even though it does when you're competing). If you love playing Merfolk, you can play Merfolk. The issue you're having is one of competitive advantage. It's not a matter of if you can play it, but can you win with it.
Metas change and evolve over time no matter what happens. There is always going to be a trickle down effect from standard into Modern that incrementally shifts it into something new. That is the nature of an always evolving game. You're arguing that you always want your old cards to be viable, which is just not possible. In a competitive sense, to use the sports analogy, take a look at basketball.
Over the years the value of having a three point shot has gone up. The game has placed value on a new skill set and as such other areas (like having a massive center to control the rim) are less desirable. That doesn't mean teams don't look at those positions or skillsets at all but have decided to look at the critical positions with higher regard.
Adding cards directly into the format does a few things. It artificially stimulates the future growth of the format, engages the excitement of the player base, invents new strategies and fleshes out other sections of the meta that may have been over looked. New cards increase format diversity, not detract from it. Though the new cards may come in and dominate the format, they do not stop you as an individual from playing and enjoying the game by eliminating the deck you like playing. That strategy may not be as competitivly viable, something that may have happened regardless of the set.
Bannings are usually the result of a lack of format diversity at the top end of the game. Those cards that are too good that playing anything else when trying to compete is impossible. Those bannings are trying to do the same thing that modern exclusive cards are, which is increasing the available card pool that are competitive. Modern Horizons, to me at least, should be a reprint heavy set with maybe a few new additions. Similar in scope to the Commander decks.
I think the big issue I have and I completely agree with you on is the idea that Splinter Twin as a deck wasn't an issue. It was evergreen. But it wasn't oppressive. It was format defining. Not format warping.
The other thing I take issue with Wizards on is that they seem to be making strategic moves for their bottom lines and not the formats themselves. Why did it take so long for the Oko and Hogaak bans? At the end of the day the formats are the lifeblood of the game, pack sales are not. You don't sell product if no one is playing your game. Fear of bannings and 'quickly' shifting metas has turn a lot of people away from a very interesting format. Wizards needs to communicate with the fans and talk through their process. That would go a long way in keeping the community engaged with and satisfied with the game (even if you can't satisfy everyone at the end of the day).
Prof still waiting for his luscious locks to return
He looks great with or without them tbh
Maybe the answer is;
- modern x; everything with just a few needed bans.
- modern slim; bigger ban (possible also restriction) list
- pioneer 1; everything since return to Ravnica
- pioneer 2; everything since domeria or something
Pointed cards might work
@@NathanJackLouttit as in cards have point to power level and a deck has a max of x points. That also sounds like a decent option. (Bit like netrunner)
"Playing a high level legacy deck against a high level modern deck probably doesn't feel that different" is honestly a statement that can only be made if you have very little understanding of what legacy is.
Just because the card availability is similar doesnt mean the complexity of decision trees, and the meta are going to be similar.
Even more evidenced by the statement that kind of blows over brainstorm as if its biggest reason is to just set up for delver.
I am a relatively new player as I started in guilds. I never liked standard with so many bans and such a small window of playable decks. A few months of playing kitchen table I found out about fnm through your channel trying to figure out how to play in a prerelease and for that I credit you with my love for modern as that was one of the first vids I saw. Since I started brewing I now play dredge and since found out about splinter twin. Looking into it more and my more extended knowledge I didn’t understand way it was banned as opposed to stuff like hogakk and oko from recent and in which I played semi competitively. So in truth SPLINTER TWIN DID NOTHING WRONG
I think a core reason for EDH's massive success over the years is because of its separation from wotc itself, the commander rules committee are solely motivated by making a fun experience for everyone to play, and because of it they aren't motivated by pack sales.
IMO the best possible habitat for competitive magic is if a separate body were formed that regulated modern purely at the highest competitive level. Something like SCG or a similar organisation taking balance and bannings into its own hands.
My thoughts on Modern and Standard is that standard should have modern staples reprinted into it often and moreso than new cards be printed. If Standard had Snapcasters and Goyfs every couple years then we could see some fun interactive standard as well as see prices go down. The problem is when they say something like bolt or Snapcaster is too powerful for standard and then print an Oko or Teferi.
spot on basketball analogy at 15:00. Adding a second hoop to professional basketball would be crazy 😂
My favorite deck is the slippery bogle hexproof. My pride and joy. I have it complete with daybreak coronets and I have a full art temple garden!
Splinter Twin was around when I was playing Magic the most, watching Magic the most, and spending the most on Magic.
My old Standard cards weren't competitively viable in Modern, which is true for most old Standard cards, but the play patterns of Twin decks also meant that I wouldn't have any fun LOSING with my old cards. As such, Modern was not a place where I could still play with my cards after they rotated out of Standard with Twin in the format. I also hated watching Twin decks, so I stopped watching event coverage when Modern was the focus.
From my perspective, Modern got significantly better when Twin was banned. I didn't have as much time to play Magic by then, so I still never played any Modern myself, but I was far more interested in following the metagame. I started watching and enjoying Modern coverage. It just became a more appealing format to me. Hell, as a spectator, I enjoyed watching Eldrazi Modern more than I ever enjoyed watching Twin matches (though maybe only because the Eldrazi stuff was only a few months as opposed to a few years).
We haven't had much big Modern tournament coverage recently, so I can't comment much on my enjoyment of Modern in the last few years, but removing Twin seemed like it was all upside.
Bc of the prof, i bought mono U tron shortly after he made his video. Great financial decision, but more importantly it got me into modern. After the twin ban the local modern meta began to dwindle and currently is dead.
Constant bans scare people away from the format. Banning twin was all for short term gain and has shown to be horrible for the life of the format.
42:25 "Playing a high level modern deck vs a high level Legacy deck doesnt feel too different" lol As someone who enjoys both formats I had to stop the video here and laugh pretty hard. Like... INSANELY hard! xD
Yeah, among other differences:
-Freaking dual lands. Just try building the same decks with shocklands instead of duals and RDW will laugh at you when you're dead turn 3.
-OP shit lands (like the eldrazi ones) ? Well, they'll often take a wasteland in the face.
-Can't seriously compare a format where you can brainstorm+fetch or ponder with one whose best cantrip is Serum visions.
-Force of Will, Daze,etc.... You have a wide choice of cheap/no-mana counters. Yep, that's why even turn 2/3 very consistent combo decks (S&T, Storm, Elves, etc..) will not break the format.
Twin did nothing wrong, it was all those other pesky cards that untapped permanents.
Yeah, but even if they banned all the untappers, the enablers, there would probably still be a way to break it. It was simpler to ban it
"its not that expensive" I think you have a very unrealistic definition of that word. 700 for a deck is very unrealistic for a large portion of the player base
I think the context of the discussion is important. I think the intend was "it's not that expensive compared to other formats". The median Pioneer deck probably isn't much cheaper than the median Modern deck
Honestly if you purchase in pieces and cut the fetch lands most modern decks aren’t to expensive.
Alex Bauschke While I agree that 700 is very expensive Modern also isn’t really for a large portion of the player base that’s what standard is for, all the eternal formats exist to keep the enfranchised/pro players happy and engaged with the game long term.
Every month a fedge Land then the Rest and you have a good deck what Hobby dont cost money
@@pascalraskal9347 you are seriously saying that buying a single card per month is a completely Okey thing. You are completely crazy.
WOTC: “So we are hearing that you want basic lands to be banned?”
They have unofficially banned "Plains". People used to joke about islands being banned but "Plains" ended up being so instead. That's Maro for you
@@glenbe4026 You're joking right?
That ending prof lol just amazing
One of the best conversations over on this chanel.
Counterpoint to the Professor, I played from Scars of Mirrodin, and most of my old cards don't see play in Modern. Pioneer in theory does support the need for cards to have homes after they rotate, at least value wise, since it's expanding the pool of cards that are viable somewhere.
I put together Twin in its Grixis variation just after Origins came out. I loved playing the deck. So many times I just ended up shy of beating it that I finally decided I was gonna pick it up. A few weeks later it was banned.