The Invasion of Saipan Part 2 of 3 with Jon Parshall-Episode 311
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.พ. 2025
- This week Seth and Bill are again joined by good pal Jon Parshall to discuss the evolving invasion of Saipan. After the Marines pushed off of the beachhead, the advance inland progressed nicely until the 27th Infantry Division ran into incredibly difficult terrain and vicious Japanese defense at Naftan Point and Death Valley. In the resulting mess of Death Valley, Marine General Holland Smith relieved Army General Ralph Smith, igniting a firestorm of controversy in what became known as Smith versus Smith. The team discusses the vicious fighting in the central portion of the island and the controversy surrounding Holland Smith's decision. Tune in and see what all the mess is about as the team takes its normal deep dive into what has been, thus far, the Pacific War's bloodiest campaign.
For all our of our episodes on the Battle for Saipan, check these links out:
• The Invasion of Saipan...
• The Invasion of Saipan...
• The Invasion of Saipan...
• Preparations for Opera...
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Love this show so much much. My dad was a Marine on Iwo and I am a Vietnam artillery surveyor up in the DMZ. Camp Carroll.
Another great episode. To me, this underlines the absolute masterful job Eisenhower did in Europe keeping all the swelled head commanders from all those different countries, servces, and traditions under control and keeping them from screwing up the whole thing. I cannot imagine.
Ike also had to harness his own British "MacArthur" ;)
He did not. One example is Market Garden.
@bbmtge
That was strictly a British XXX Corps screw up. Had Montgomery been more aggressive, and had they not taken time out for tea things may have been vastly different. The 101st and 82nd Airborne were in place and asked to perform tasks that they were not suited to being that they are shock troops and not molded in the form of Defense troops. They performed remarkably well all things considered. Don't get me wrong, the Brits performed remarkably well but the timetables got so screwed up it became a hopeless operation. Just my two cents😊
Also some idiot took a copy of the whole battle with him and the Germans found a glider with the body. So timing of all air drops and targets to be attacked.
This is an awesome channel. My dad was a WWII vet. He was a Pacific War vet. I have a sword he brought home. He never told me anything about it. This channel reconnects me to him. He passed away way back in 1985. Maybe someday you guys can do a live stream or have one of your fans as a guest. That would be awesome
My uncle as well, Marine from the start on Guadacanal to the end. Total badass till the end.
@@frankbodenschatz173 My dad was Army.. I enlisted in the marines before he died. All he said was ‘’they’re gonna shave your head.’’ Lol
I have a type 99 7.7mm from Tinian. It is a real boat anchor as far as build quality goes but is very accurate. I can pick off 1 gallon milk jugs at an honest 150yds with it. My great uncle picked it up on Tinian I believe
My Dad too was a WWII veteran, but in Europe with the 95 Infantry Division. He was wounded December 4th, 1944. It was the "million dollar wound". Thankfully he didn't lose his arm and regained for all practical purposes 100% use. I have at a few times thought, if that German had been just a bit better, I would not be here. Still Dad lost a soldier who against orders tried to come to his aid. That reality never left Dad. I used this story to teach Soldiers in my Army National Guard Company why you should listen to us Sergeants.
Much respect to your Dad. Both my grandfathers were in ww2 but i only have the souvenirs from one of them. Its all Nazi stuff. I cherish that stuff but honestly my most prized possession i have of his was the "WW2 Army Veteran" hat that he wore everyday the last 10 years of his life. I found a folded up 2 dollar bill in it recently. He had foled it and put it in the sweat band.
Guys,
For what it's worth from a passtime history addict: You absolutely rock. Apart from Drachinifel or Mark Solonin, I can't wait for another video of yours. It's a shame that you only have slightly north of 23k subscribers as of today. Amazing quality of your work, your love for facts and to-the-point analysis deserve so much more.
But hey. For what it's worth, it's great you're here. Keep up the good work (please)!
Mark Solonin does youtube videos? LOL. His books are fairy tales. Are his videos better?
@@Gregolec You seem to know who Mark Solonin is and seem to have read at least one of his books. However, from what you're saying I understand you're not interested in facts or history but are seeking to discredit anyone and anything which confronts lies of Soviet / Russian propaganda. So be it... Our enemies, enemies of truth, are plenty, unfortunately, and it's not surprising that also here some of them are to be found.
You will not find any mindless quarrel here.
And despite all the efforts of all the minions of Kremlin regime of terror, the facts about true role of Stalin and USSR in WWII are coming to light - also in the West. "Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority."... Who said that?
@@wiktornyckowskiKnown to me books of Solonin are cherry-picking fantasies. You cannot fight Russian propaganda with such a weapon.
But you're right, no point of quarreling here.
I'll look for his yt out of curiosity.
@@Gregolec In a highly unlikely but not entirely impossible case that you actually might be interested in facts and truth, we can take this discussion elsewhere, on some specific, grounds to any of Mark Solonin videos, interviews, whatever suits you - he appears to enjoy this kind of interaction just as well. I've seen a lot of attacks on Mark from the side of old hard commieboos as well as Kremlin trolls but never have I ever encountered anyone who could actually prove that his facts weren't right. Who knows, maybe "always a first" as they say, I'm fairly certain he would be just as well thankful for a correction...
Great work on Part 2 men! I appreciated the way in which you took us through the more dark side of the Pacific war history. Bringing to light the reasons why General Ralph Smith was relieved by Marine General Holland Smith and the background leading up to it is not pleasant to discuss, as it puts our unit histories in an embarrassing light. It is a fact of history and one moment from which future leaders can learn from. The one individual who never really seemed to learn from it was Holland Smith himself, as he never changed his mindset or style of command later in the war. He never fostered a team concept during this campaign, and should have been himself relieved or at least censured for his poor performance.
And yet he won a lot of battles.
@@SkylerinAmarillo Fair enough. I won't argue the truth of his successes, just wondered at the methods.
@@SkylerinAmarilloAs did Zhukov.
After this episode one may wonder if it was not always for higher cost it should be.
And how many times superior firepower and substantial reserves let Holland Smith get away with it.
Reality is (almost) always pretty messy... Just like in any organization, military does not necessarily promote the most efficient commanders and does not punish the least efficient ones. Yes it is great when incentives generally align with military goals but things like friends in high places, ability to manage people in a broad sense or ability to sell oneself are (not "can be" but "are") more important than actual achievements, even if we might not like it. Or, in other words, history happened as it did and while we can discuss all day long why it happened this way, it does not have to be logical or make sense to us. It does make sense, sure, otherwise it would not have happened, but we may not necessarily understand all of it.
More to the point - I think the details of General Ralph Smith departure were fairly well explained here. And yes, his fokus on efforts to improve the situation may have harmed him more than they helped - even if he potentially could have fixed the situation and had the right ideas. That's because he concentrated on fixing things, not on selling whatever he was doing or not doing to the right people and paid the price for this judgment error. Politician beats technician, every time.
@@wiktornyckowski Well spoken. Appreciate your thoughtful reply.
Thanks. Old dog learns new trick
Not gonna lie, that was a tough one to listen too. I know fully well how abhorrent and brutal the fighting was in the Pacific, but I thank you all for your tact & sensitivity to difficult material to cover. I hope to share a beer with you all one day in a great hall of joy. Perhaps McGuires Irish Pub in Pensacola.
Yes, I usually watch in one sitting. This "illumination" was too challenging.
Strangely, speaking from experience, this "leadership" pattern persists in some business organisations today.
Bill....lead from the front... that's the very reason I retired from the Corps... I WAS BEING PROMOTED to 1st Sgt and I knew that I would go initially to a line company.... no problem.. I like the idea of a line company... but I also knew that my arthritis and back issues would effect my performance... so instead I retired. 😢 leading 19 & 20 year old Marines from the front is not an easy task.
Young man’s game
Thank you for your service 🇺🇲👍🇺🇲👍
Thank you for your good judgment.
Thanks for all you guys do. Don't usually comment but I watch you every week. Wish I knew about the conference earlier. would certainly have signed up for it to meet you guys but it is sold out. Would love to buy you all a beer or two. I'm a Navy veteran born and raised in New Olreans- now live in McComb Ms. Was in SBU 22 and spent some time at the ranges at Shelby.
Keep up the good work- love your show
Wish you would tell subscribers about conferences earlier. I could have made it to New Orleans by the 8th if you had mentioned that a few weeks ago. Even if it’s a tentative. Love the work you guys do. We would all buy you guys a drink😀
With current events in full view.
I want to thank you for putting forth these episodes. It may not feel like it. But you 3 are conducting war college for some. This historical account of battles and tactics are courses paid in blood by our forefathers. It’s our duty to listen and learn what we can.
An army combat vet of 82nd and 25th. I know better than to train for the next one whether it’s on op order or not. It’s very straightforward to shift a hobby to doctrine. But just as 27 INF found out. Starting cold is painful no matter your competence level. Sometimes being one lesson ahead of curve is what separates us from total defeat and victory.
My grandfather was a tech sgt in the army air corps, a b-29 mechanic on saipan from late 44 tthrough the end of the war. Obviously well after this battle, during the strategic bombing of japan. Came back with lots of pictures both of life on saipan and of the results of the bombing on japanese targets. Dad told me lots of his stories of how they would go into the hills armed and hunting for japanese holdouts when there was no gas for the planes to fly. Always wondered how much was truth and how much was embellished but according to the stories they encountered more than a few. Thanks for your work love the channel. Granddaddy's plane was Z square 4 "Black Magic"
My late step-father-in-law was a B-29 mechanic on Saipan, too. Nice guy. Didn't talk about it much.
Oh boy I've been on the edge of my set from the first episode. What a baptism of fire for the 27th. I had no clue of the break down in command and control being so bad. And the lack of Artillery and close air support blows my mind. I would like to think if in Holland Smiths shoes would you not have offered combined arms as at least an idea?
This kind of all boils down to inexperience from the top down. Poor intelligence / communications and bad leadership.
So far as Death Valley I must say, the Japanese were perhaps the best in the world at taking advantage of terrane and setting up some of the best death traps ever known to man. they were masters at defense. They did so much with so little.
I can't tell you guys about how much I enjoy you talking about this history and how much I value your opinion. Thank you once more for your insight.
As a C-130 "trash hauler" expending my vast knowledge of ground combat, I seem to remember reading about the inability of Marine units unable to transition thru Army lines in the search for Saddam Hussien. What was not discussed adequately was the decision to sandwich an Army division between two Marine divisions. Thanks for another lively Tuesday morning.
The C-130 wasn't always a "trash hauler". I flew on C-130s getting in and out of BIAP for my leave just a bit over 20 years ago. It was two C-130s from Michigan's ANG that saved my Army National Guard Company a long overnight bus ride from Fort Riley, KS to Kalamazoo, MI. I loved it. I was allowed to go up into the cockpit in flight. I had quite a chat with a young 2LT Navigator fresh from Nav School. So some lucky days the C-130 was a Freedom Bird! I am also a USAF veteran. You can call me militarily, bi-lingual!
Only a real Herky Man can call C-130 a Trash Hauler.. Its a term of endearment....We love our bird, the most mission versatile aircraft in the world.
@@klsc8510 As I once responded to Col Alexander (Commander 374 Tactical Aielift Wing), "I love flying the plane but riding in the back of the thing is cruel and unusual punishment." Fond memories of sleeping off a vicious hangover on a pallet of onions during a 6 hour flight from CCK AB to Utapao.
th-cam.com/video/batLVtumizU/w-d-xo.html
Tack!
THank you
What a clusterF... I watched "Pacific" when it came out. Read some books in my youth, Thin Red Line. For reference Im a former professionell army officer from sweden. You fellows have brought clarity for me. The lack of intelligence, artillery and leadership astounds me. Thank you for sharing this hard lesson of history.
I too watched the Pacific and as an American and ex-serviceman have been taken to school by your presentations. Trajedy on both sides both military and civilian due to poisoning of the human mind.
Im now 62, have read tons on WWII, but many things are only now becoming clear, thanks to Seth, Bill and of course Jon, Drach and others.
The one very easy realization was the moment in the Pacific when the Atomic Bomb had been dropped. It occured to me roughly 70,000 humans ceased to exist in the blink of an eye.
I wept bwhen the thought of how many great leaders, scientists, engineers, doctors, educators and much more had suddenly their dreams and that of their future offsprings dreams dashed.
I know why it was dropped, and agree that it had to be done to save even many more than the 56 miillion who had or would pay the ultimate price.
I would argue most of these without consent.
So Bill while in your participation in the upcoming symposium on the 2026 War with China, dont forget to argue for the non-combatants as well. They have no voice at your table.
@@Mildly.Squeued -- The poisoning of the human mind continues. One of the "thought leaders" of the Davos crowd is on board for a global depopulation program (through war, pandemic, and famine) to reduce the population to 1.5 billion, "to save the planet." Yuval Harari says, "We don't need this many people any more." Consider who the "we" are in that sentence, and how little they value of the lives of the people. On the bright side, the American voters finally showed some moral sophistication in the recent election, and rejected the poisoning of the mind put forth by the establishment, who are aligned with the Davos crowd.
thank you Bill Seth and Jon. I absolutely love this channel and having Jon on just makes it even better.
I have read about the smith vs. smith thing for years. You guys have presented the BEST, most inciteful (sp?), discussion I have seen!! Awesome
Insightful
@@c7042Holland Smith was clearly inciting a lot of people, though…
@@grahamstrouse1165 okey dokey, but I was just offering a spelling alternate.
@@c7042 Not sure the meaning of incite is exactly what you are going for though. Incite means: encourage or stir up (violent or unlawful behaviour).
And yes, its pronounced exactly the same as insight, because of course it is!
You’ve had Drach on as a guest, which was great.
I’d recommend having the Chieftain as a guest to go into details for any armor action.
Which episode was drach on ?
Pacific War armored combat would be an interesting episode.
One of the submarine episodes.@@lsutigernfla1
@@Sshooter444Ain't there way too few examples for it?
Perhaps have the Chieftain on for Okinawa, there was extensive use of armor by the US in that campaign, they had difficulties using it effectively. True not much armor on armor in the Pacific.
Really wnjoy this channel. I enjoy history of war and the ramifications on the world in which we live today.
this trio of shows have and will cover much about Saipan that I had not learned before. Looking forward to next week.
Keep up the great work. Really like Jon's wallpaper!
Proud of y'all
Wow. Just wow. I'm so glad to be hearing all of this from the two of you and Jon, which is always a happy surprise. Bill, glad the arm is doing well, and thanks to this whole gang for always delivering a fantastic storytime experience.
i thank you all for your dedicated work in bringing us the snippets of the W W 2 history
Thank you Seth, Bill and Jon for another excellent episode. I have been looking forward to you covering the Smith v Smith debate, which has facinated me since I reading James Hallis' account. I think the podcast/discussion format brought the subject to life in a way a book could not. I appreciate your even-handed analysis, but would have liked an expansion on how the different doctrines of the US Army and Marine Corps contributed to the situation. I have been facinated by the Pacific War since watching repeats of Victory at Sea and films like Guadacanal Diary as a boy in the early 60s, so your show is a particular joy even though the subject matter never gets easier to hear...................................also we tend to like/dislike the same people.
Thanks Guys. You are doing an awesome job. Much appreciate your insights. If not for who you are, your opinions would not mean to much. But, because of who you are this is really rich stuff. Thanks for helping me to better understand what was actually going on, no matter how tough it is. I know this focus is on just how amazing our troops where - where the heck did these guys come from. But, thank God they did. Still, God bless our Viet Nam Vets, and ALL our Vets too. It feels stupid to say "thank you" but... Thank you so much. You guys are amazing. Unbelievable courage, strength, valor, love and strength. Totally stunning.
This is by far the best WW2 show I've seen. I look so forward to Tuesday morning's when the next one comes out. Looking really forward to hearing about the Philippines, Pelilua, iwo jima, and Okinawa, plus the upcoming naval battles. Thank you so much gentleman for all this information you give us that most of us would never have known about!
Every week this just keeps getting better and better.....it's like being able to just sit and listen to 3 friends talk about something that's an absolute passion for them!
1.In regards to the 27th I agree with you guys Smith was right to relieve Smith at some point but the way he did it was wrong, completely wrong.
But I do wonder what effect the US Army cutting the USMC out of the Normandy landings and any other action in Europe played into his feelings? As it was all happening at the same time.( I personally think it was best strategy to keep the USMC focused on the Pacific but there is the personal feelings of participants at the time to think of on this issue.)
2. Would like to know, was the 27th ever stripped or perhaps stripped multiple times for Cadre building new divisions before going into combat? This happened with some Divisions to enter the European War later in 44 and they had performance issues initially. Think Smiths reluctance to relieve may be in part because he felt those of less rank were not ready to move up and why he kept going forward himself to lead where he could.
3. Also wonder about the Artillery units....were they tasked with supporting Marine Units at the time, finding a list of dates and ammo expended may show they were? That would be a black eye to Smith Sr if they were pulled off supporting their own troops to bolster Marine units.
As far as the Japanese civilians, not sure we should call what happened 100% brain washing or just an expectation of what the Japanese military did regularly to civilians they took captive to be returned to them. Everything they were worried US forces would do to them was done pretty regularly to Chinese and other "Inferior" civilian populations during the war.
@@redaug4212 thanks, that does make sense. TBH I could see Holland Smith being willing to deny them the Arty support just out of spite.
Great episode Seth, Bill and Jon. Looking forward to next week. But the closer we get to Japan the more savage it gets. I had two Uncles in ETO and three in the PTO. My Uncles in the ETO talked to me more about what they had seen and went through. My Uncles in the PTO did not talk about it as much. They and my Dad were and are the Greatest Generation. I thank you for your great work on these presentations.
Addicted to your research and truthful history. Fantastic to meet you both at the Indiannapolis Reunion in Benicia. To Seth, I think you've surpassed Ambrose is relating history to the populous. To Bill, as a map person, I wonder if you know of the origins of the mural maps at the American Cemetery in Manila? In my experience, they are one of the most outstanding stories of the Pacific War.
I don't! Been to Manila but never been to the cemetery I'm afraid.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar Seth, I get your meaning, but dang it, you sure could of word smithed that much better! It almost reads like Nimitz's message to Halsey a bit latter.
Waited all day to listen to this. As always wonderful work. Its always a pleasure listening to Jon Parshall as a guest.
Thankfully this PODCAST is on Spotify too I just found. The TH-cam add frequency is astounding today!!!!!
The word fustercluck definitely comes to mind on this assault. I'm doubting that any artillery / naval shore battery fire before hand would have helped the death valley attack, or trying to flank purple heart ridge to the east, due to the opposing troops being dug into mountain caves, but, if they had shore battery fire support available and were able to draw the opposing troops out of their dug in stronghold areas to/ on the east side of purple heart ridge, and then fired when they were in the open, I would think there would be more success, but that would also take co-ordination that doesn't readily seem to be available in this island assault.
From the narrative, I understood that the 27th ID was at the nose of a Japanese salient, with the Marines on either side (thus the statement of the Marines' flanks being in danger with the 27th ID perceived as not keeping up with the advance). Remembering the map, the coast isn't far away, but the fire wouldn't be from behind, but from an angle to the corps front line, using high-angle, indirect fire from ships. And if the two battalions were only doing marches in hundreds of yards or a mile or so, that seems like a small area to shoot at, at that time. A large over, or under-shoot would seem to be a bigger risk to be in friendly lines.
From what I recall the geography was such that the naval guns just could not provide any accurate or effective fire support to that location. It was too far inland for the 5" 38 dual purpose guns when fully elevated to provide the near vertical fire they were so could at. And the heavier Cruiser guns could not get enough elevation to drop into that hole. They just pummeled the surrounding hills. The big battleship guns had the risk of over firing the entire mountain range and dropping on the or near the invasion beaches. It was a tough target even for the Navy Dive Bombers to hit due to the terrain. Plus they were a little busy that day.
Please don't get me wrong, I love your coverage of WW2 Pacific War. But I think your descriptions of National Guard units in combat cut a bit short! My unit (184th Infantry, 7th Inf Division) saw some pretty intense fighting in the Pacific. In fact, in our two hundred plus years, we have never lost a war in which our National Guard units participated in. For example, in your coverage of the Kwatulan Atoll, you said that the 7th Inf Div performed very well and met every objective. I say this because I served with several highly decorated 7th Div soldiers who told me their stories. I was impressed then and now! When ever an overall ground force commander is a Marine commanding Army units or vice-versa You have a water and oil situation that can be tough! So keep it fair and keep doing it!
7th ID isn’t nor was it ever a guard unit.
Several of my friends were members of the California National Guards 1st Battalion 184th Inf and assigned to the 7th Inf Division. They trained at Fort Ord, conducted training in landing crafts in Monterey Bay, and were sent overseas. They went to Hawaii first, then on to fight on several islands to include Kwatulan Atoll. Awards included the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Stars, and others. It was an honor having them in my unit. The National Guard has a splendid record of service both in war and peace!
As one of three regiments of the 7th Inf Div, the 184th Inf participated in four major operations; Aleutian Islands, Kwajalein Atol, Leyte, and Okinawa. They received two Presidential Unit Citations, earned many decorations, Inflicted thousands of enemy casualties, fought the Japanese 16th Div (Rape of Nanking and Batan Death March) stormed, Dulag Beach, and Shoestring Ridge where they won by that much. Outside our armory in Sacramento, CA we placed their bullet torn Regimental Flag on the wall where it is honored to this day. Sadly all of the hero's of this Regiment from WW2 are now gone but never forgotten! Today, the story of the 184th Inf Regiment goes on whenever and wherever needed as part of the California Army National Guard. I am proud to have served with some of them! I hope as part of your broadcast, you will mention them!
@@CraigMommerI think one thing to keep in mind when deploying Guards Units is that generally speaking they’re going to be a little older & slower but likely more technically proficient in a lot of areas.
Thank you for this channel, I love it. Im a New Orleans native living in Georgia now and visited Cp Shelby numerous times while in the Washington Artillery LAARNG. Prior to that, I spent 4 years in the USN on a destroyer, and my father was also in the NAVY, 71st Seabee BN WW2, so your channel is special to me.
Great show gentlemen.
Love your work
I want to thank you men for doing this podcast and to bring forth the history of our fathers. I knew some of the history but this has opened my eyes to the absolute determination of the greatest generation. Thank you for this amazing and stunning history lesson that we need to continue to learn from.
This isn't history, it's at best poorly researched, and at worst blatant falsehood and slander of the 27th Infantry Division. Holland Smith was incompetent and the USN and USMC continue to slander an entire division rather than admit to one man's incompetent leadership.
Thanks for an excellent, albeit difficult to convey, presentation. You're appreciated Seth, Bill, Jon thank you.
Thanks, you guys deserve something special, unfortunately this is all i can do.
Thank you
Love the Podcast! - I am grateful that I have something to look forward to each morning. Jon Parshall is a great addition to this episode and many others. Seth and Bill Thanks for doing these video on u-tube.
0546 from SC in the house! This ought to be a good show, especially the breakdown of Marine's vs Army on Saipan!
All Star Cast of Great Pacific War Authors, ( sans Trent Hone) gathering in a couple of days in New Orleans...I wouldn't have known if ya'll didn't mention it.
Now i have an excuse to visit, after wanting to for years, after the move back to NC Arkansas. Im so lucky that my neighbor watches the pets.
Superb skewering of Holland Smith , well deserved. I know the Napoleonic wars better then I do these campaigns - Just the right level of detail , thanks. Dad was in the 24th ID from 1939 - 45,
I am first again!!! I work second shift in Portland, Oregon and my bedtime is 4 am so I can get up by noon and I rule on this channel!!!
Unauthorized ruler of the channel
@@elijenkins6129lmfao
One of the things about the Stuart Grant and Lee tanks is, these tanks were riveted instead of welded, at least in the early versions. Late models may have been welded. But those rivets in those tanks would break at close near misses not just with direct hits; those rivets would ricochet through the crew and fighting compartments killing or seriously maiming those soldiers who were unfortunate enough to get assigned to serve in them. Great work on this episode and on these series of volumes of history. May I ask if you’ve given any thought to doing work on Operation Torch or Sicily, Solerno, and Italy?
Another excellent presentation.
Thank-you!
Oh, WW2 museum at New Orleans? Rob is a nice chap.
And Bill seems to be as well, glad his arm is doing better. Did he see Paul Woodage's WW2TV Sub Week? Lots of nice content. Yesterday there was an interview with the guy who met and wrote on all the surviving U-boot Captains. Very interesting both historically, as a lesson in source criticism, and human processing memories.
As for 58:00-ish, difficult commands are the best commands; competent officers wants the hard tasks. Balck seems to have loved his command at the Chir River for example.
Thanks!
Thank you
Great episode gentlemen! It's amazing to see such Petulant personalities from these general officers in such critical times.
The Marine vs Army fued that will always have a fire soldering due to incidents such as Saipan!
Thank you
Fantastic episode gentleman, I can't wait for the mext episode. As mentioned in many episodes you don't cover modern events but whenever one is brought up, like Captain Toti's point about Gaza later on, they are always spot on and done extremely professionally.
Gentlemen, this series on Saipan has been excellent. Looking forward to the next episode.
Couple of questions/comments. In one vid I saw, the Japanese claim to have sank 11 carriers just during this engagement, (the Enterprise was sank 3 times during the war according the Japanese reports). How many carriers, capital ships did the Japanese “claim” to have sank during the war? The Japanese never had 11 carriers at any point in the war. On the Japanese home front (propaganda) did the Japanese people ever ‘look out the window’ and say ‘holy shit’ as this war is getting closer and closer to Japan 😮 Just makes one wonder! Thanks for these episodes and all the work you guys do. Good content, great guests. Thank you.
Excellent episode chaps.
I really enjoyed these lessons in command and leadership. I used to teach it at Staff College. I now realize how better I could have done it.
Jon you talked about only the Japanese having the spirit of 'fighting till the last bullet'. As an Australian, I draw your attention to Kamel Attaturk's famous speech “I don’t order you to fight, I order you to die. In the time it takes us to die, other troops and commanders can come and take our places,” to (I think) the Turkish 55th Battalion during the Gallopoli campaign. And they did.
Can you guys link to the conferences at WWII
MUSEUM and conference on war with the PRC? Great show as usual!!👍
Gentlemen again a hearty thanks for an awesome presentation. Captain take care of your shoulder. As a fellow submariner and having been rebuilt a couple times myself follow your Physical Therapist’s directions the first time.
Great episode as always guys. And Jon’s shirts rule!
What size shirt Seth? Gray seems to be the podcast color of choice. (A hint fans) 😄
"Beware of Marines with law degrees". My father was a WWll Marine, with a law degree (after the war). He would have loved that line. 😆
Gen. Roy Geiger had a law degree and he did p[retty well! :)
"Twenty Years of Mind Poison", well put Jon.
Howling Mad sounds like a larger version of what would have happened if Herbert sobel had led Easy Company into combat
I do prefer the original intro to this series. It was such a beautiful and picturesque montage of what fascinates me about the Pacific War: the fast carriers in conflict. But this intro is so poignant to topics being discussed. Very well done.
I think it matches with the topic of more of the ground combat in these episodes that is being covered.
You guys are AMAZING. Unfortunately, there is not much place for LTA (Lighter Than Air) in your schedules otherwise I would love to participate as that is my personal area of exxpertise.
Love the podcast and I listen to the video version every Tuesday on my day off. After listen to part 2 today I was curious are yall planning on doing an episode on the Navajo code talkers and there pros on talking with off shore ships for naval support?
Nice to see Jon’s shoutout to HP Willmott, his two books Barrier and the Javelin and Empires in the Balance were groundbreaking. Those and Lundstrom’s First South Pacific Campaign are required to understand the early part of the war.
Superb work. I personally have learned a huge amount through this episode. Thanks, guys. Looking forward to Pt 3
The only negative about this wonderful channel is that eventually it will come to an end. 😟
Then we move on to Korea!
@@highdesertutah I would love to see some coverage even remotely close to this on the Korean War.
Is there any that anyone knows of?
@@chainsaw2046 Yeah I know. I just watched a “Korea” trailer posted 5 days ago on the “World War Two” channel. They’re at the tail end of WWII now and it looks like Korea is on deck. If their coverage of Korea is as extensive as their WWII stuff you may just get PTSD from watching it all. They generally go week by week through the war with lots of specials thrown it. Check ‘em out!
Thanks so much to the three of you for sharing this discussion with us. The whole session was so well done and, as always, it left me in awe of your combined knowledge of and commitment to this fascinating yet, at times, horrific subject.
Thank you. Excellent.
Keep the maps !! Love you guyies !!
Great job with this episode boys. I am well and truly curious as to the issue of artillery/air strikes on that island…. the hell was that about? Anyways, again, fantastic work.
Excellent if perhaps unnecessary too short episode.
Hear you next week.
Y'all are luminary as hell, don't sell yourselves short!
Haha
Another outstanding episode. One of the best, in terms of flow and chemistry. Sort of the opposite of the poor 27th ID! I once had occasion to "correct" the explanatory text at a military museum, on a display of items from Saipan. One of the artifacts was an invoice for purchase of rice by the IJA from a Saipan farmer - the text used the phrase "occupied Saipan". Trivia, sure, but accuracy above all.
Thanks Guys!
Thank you gentlemen.
I am very happy to find you guys of which I have some catching up to do with the previous episodes. As for your comment of "can't wait to watch the next episode" for me is entirely correct. I am especially interested to hear the upcoming Okinawa campaign episode(s). My father was aboard USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) at that time. Great stuff you have going guys!
Also wanted to note the 165th IR is part of the lineage of the 69th NY, the legendary Fighting 69th. This was not their greatest hour though. The 69th Regiment Armory is a can’t miss in NYC if you can get in, an amazing museum. Happy to be part of that group.
This podcast is right up there with the Victory at Sea series with Leonard Graves and The World at War with Laurence Olivier. Thank goodness for Goldwater-Nichols, when listening to the terrible situation between/with Holland Smith and Ralph Smith. There is one very important commonality between the Marines and the Army. It's supposed to be the United States Marines and the United States Army, one team not two. In Desert Shield/Desert Storm, at Sheikh Isa we had United States Marines, United States Air Force and United States Army all working together to accomplish the mission. One team, not three. United we stand, divided we fall. This podcast, and the people bringing it to life, simply put, is/are absolutely tremendous. Hard episode to listen to, so many American lives lost in a nightmare situation. So many needless lives lost among Saipans people, just so hard to hear. However, this is an episode that cannot be shied away from, and forgotten. This is a piece of history, however hard to hear, that needs to be told.
My exact thoughts.
While I agree with your estimate concerning The World at War series, my opinion is that this effort far surpasses Victory at Sea, for a couple of reasons. Victory at Sea, while well done, was a product of its time. Still very close in time to the war, it was limited to information and film that was available, much of which has been either supplemented or in a few cases, discounted. It was also, frankly, rather jingoistic. The Japanese and their culture were still at best dismissed and at worst, hated. Not to say that that was wrong. It wasn't. It was simply a product of the time and cannot be judged by today's morals. But it did have a great influence on the tone of the series. The other reason, and I've already alluded to it, is that Seth, Captain Toti, Bill Parshall et al, have not only the advantage of some 80 years of time to reflect on the events, but have dived deep into them, not only uncovering many things that were either forgotten or suppressed, but fitting them together into a mosaic of analysis that leaves Victory at Sea in the dust. Pun intended.
Thank you…very good
I know it is somewhat naive of me to use this analogy, but in good management/leadership one needs to clearly know the objectives (i.e. what do I need to accomplish), while also knowing his strengths and weaknesses. In light of this, it imperative to clearly communicate your expectations and at the same time remove all obstacles to achieve the desired results. In other words, I would explain to my guys/gals, it is my job to make your job easier - what do I need to do?
The lack of M4 Shermans in the 27ID support battalion may have been related to the fact that Overlord was only 10 days before Forager. I would want my best tanks facing the German Panzer divisions before I would assign them to face the Japanese.
My favorite attribute of root cause analysis is that, when properly implemented, there is no blame. Everyone involved can see their role in how the incident evolved. That fosters ownership in following better procedures, and working better as a team.
Thanks for shedding light on the 27th ID situation. There's not bunches of documentation on what happened with them - that's probably intentional considering the actions of Holland Smith.
Alexander Peña, 3rd Battalion, 6th Marine Regiment, 2nd Marine Division, Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Saipan and Tinian, He was WIA June 17th on Saipan and soon after was KIA July 30th 1944 in Tinian, the island was declared secured Aug 1st, He almost made it home, R.I.P Uncle Alex, The Greatest Generation of All Time.
A standard independent USA tank battalion had 3 companies of M4 mediums and 1 company of M3/M5 lights and a platoon of M4/105 Assault guns
Excellent production and much appreciated. One query. Nagumo was on Saipan and is it true that some of the shore bombardment was provided by the very ships raised from Pearl Harbour? Ironic that he was on the receiving end of those guns.
The slow battleships were at Pearl. The fast battleships were not
Absolutely fascinating. You are right, Captain Toti, we do not learn the lessons of history, do we?
Thank you for all your hard work putting together your podcast it is reflected in the quality of your information. History as it should be informative clear concise and in this case horrific . I would love to hear the same detail from a Japanese perspective .
Regarding 1:20:42 "what's going on with the artillery?" The 27th had no artillery. In large part due to the failure of Holland Smith to inform the Navy that the 27th was to come ashore. This created confusion and resulted in the 27th being forced to operate without any artillery support. Also, numerous repeated requests for artillery support from USMC artillery or naval artillery were refused and/ or ignored by Holland Smith and his staff.
1:21:42 - you can't use what you don't have.
Thanks
I love the soothiness of the intro. music/melody,just invite you to settle down and listen to these three knowledgeable historians.
The lack of coordination of combined arms is the responsibility of the overall commander, H. Smith?
How much of the difficulty at Saipan can be attributed to poor planning? It would be pretty interesting to see a show about how the planning is conducted for many of these battles.
Well done once again gentlemen. Had the U.S. Navy removed all close air support in Saipan in preparatrion for The Battle of the Phillipine Sea and/or the invasion of the Phillipines? I had no idea about the absence(?) of U.S. Army artillery support in Saipan (until late) but am wondering if U.S. Naval close air support was available or could've been of any help.
Dark chapters such as New Guinea, Tarawa, Peleliu,, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa (to name just a few) are part of the history and ravages/savagery of war. As tough as it may be for you to read/describe it and for us to hear it/see photos of it - I remind myself that it's hardly a thimble-ful of what our Marines, Soldiers and Sailors saw and had to live with for the rest of their lives. I think I've read that WWII was the first war where civilians made up the majority of war fatalities. God bless our brave soldiers who were there and all of the innocent people who had to witness it.
Another great episode, very interesting discussion about the Smith's. I remember reading that HM Smith had been a member of the Alabama National Guard and tried to get a direct commission with the Army after finishing law school but was denied; perhaps this is a source of his animus towards the Army. As a retired Army Field Artillery officer, I was surprised regarding the discussion on the lack of artillery support for Army units early in the campaign and that there was little documentation on the subject. The Army even then was notorious was writing After Action Reports on everything, documenting what went right and wrong, and you would have thought that the lack of artillery support would have been discussed in those AAR's. Do you know if the 27th Division or 27th Divarty AARs are available for review?
There are no AAR's for the 27th's artillery, because it was still being landed and was not emplaced until after Ralph Smith was relieved.
This was reported by the S-2 of 1st Battalion of the 105th, along with the fact that every request for artillery support from neighboring USMC units was refused or ignored by Holland Smith's staff.
Were I Army Smith I would have ignored the relief note until Marine Smith brought his ass to the front and addressed me to my face.
Is there going to be a separate podcast about the little aerial fracas? It only involved 1200+ aircraft, after all? ["Great Marianas Turkey Shoot"]
Just dropped this morning…
Relief of Ralph Smith: consensus seems to be that it was possibly the right thing, unquestionably within Holland Smith's authority, but absolutely the wrong way to do it.
Seth, Bill & John, well done. The Pacific War was a no holds bared knock down bare knuckle brawl from start to finish. It was war as ugly as it gets.
I have a question. Where the heck were the old battleships? Why were their big guns not used to shell the Japanese strong points holding things up?
I read that the 27th’s artillery was requisitioned by the Marines leaving the Army without its support.
The 27th's artillery and armored units were not landed until the day before General Ralph Smith was wrongfully relieved. First of all, Holland Smith sent orders to the 27th to land, but failed to give orders to, or even inform the Navy of this. This 1) delayed deployment until nightfall, 2) led to the officers of the 27th to have to beg individual ship captains for landing craft, 3) heavy equipment such as artillery and tanks not being landed at all, and 4) worst of all, several friendly fire incidents when Navy ships, unaware that there was a landing in progress, fired on the landing craft thinking they were Japanese attack craft. The transports were moved off for several days due to the threat of air attack (see battle of the Philippine Sea) thus causing further delays. Had the orders for the 27th to land been properly passed on to the transports and the 27th been landed in its entirety, the situation would never have happened. Holland Smith expected the 27th to advance up an open valley surrounded on 3 sides by fortified high ground and covered by pre-registered artillery without any artillery or armored support, and refused to provide any support for the 27th, nor would he allow adequate time to get support units in place. The key point is that Holland Smith and his staff had never commanded a multi-division Corps, and he / they were incompetent to do so.