Insulated Concrete Forms - Overview, Costs, and Cons
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- Matt comes to you from a 7000 sqft off-grid site just outside Atlanta to talk Insulated Concrete Forms - Benefits, How the system works, Cost, Why would you use this over traditional construction methods, AND of course......... the DOWN SIDES.
Huge thanks to poly-wall.com for getting us up to Atlanta to film. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes on the waterproofing details of this job with their product "HomeStretch"
ICF Materials Shown - buildblock.com
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I have built many, many of these houses and basements under huge houses. We always waterproofed the exterior, added a French Drain system to the exterior side. We actually set the first course of block into the wet footer, thus locking it to the foundation! Leveling? No problem. When one reaches the top of the wall and finds some high points or low points, just trim trim the blocks to the desired heights, or add additional foam from partial blocks that have been used for other small projects. Straightness of walls? NO PROBLEM! A minimum of bracing is required on the inside. As you poor, the wall will move with the flow of the concrete and the shift in weights. Not to worry. Since it will take 25-30 years for the concrete to reach maximum hardness, you come back the next day and adjust the bracing to square the walls. Then, since you’ve already hung the floor joints into the concrete, and if you’re smart, bought a prefabbed floor system, you begin to hang the floor joists. They are cut to length and true, so they provide the final absolute squareness to the walls. A 2X10 sill plate fits nicely on the top of the wall. make certain you place Simpson Tie tie down straps into the wet concrete as you reach the top. The ties will wrap around your sill and are easily nailed in place. Any holes through the exterior walls for water, sewer, A/C, electrical should be lined with PVC pipe . Simply cut the hole through the wall prior to pouring, making certain the pipe diameter is sufficient to handle the planned size utilities. Plus make certain these “chases” are big enough to replace any utilities line later if need be. After the utility lines have been installed simply foam in the extra space to prevent any invasion by rodents, bugs, water, etc. of them. This house as shown could be stacked, poured, leveled, plumbed, and waterproofed in 3 days without a problem by my crew of four! BTW, my home in ND has this block, is 3260 sq.ft., with 12 foot ceilings, 28% exterior glass for windows, and is all electric (not natural gas) the average utility bill is $72.00 per month! And, by the way also, these houses are bullet proof! They are so tight that you’ll need an air handler to circulate fresh air. There are no cold spots in these houses! All rooms are the same temp. You need one thermostat, one A/C unit, and hardly any cleaning supplies. They are practically dust free! The biggest house I built from foam was 8468 Sq. Ft. 3 stories. His average utilities for heating and cooling runs $168 per month
Do you build in Michigan or have any recommendations for someone who does (with your level of experience)?
@@President-Elect_Cory No, but would be more than happy to come and assist you build your house, or help your contractor build said house. We could work out the details. If you’re interested, first and foremost, I work cheap (retired, and don’t require much funding), would need a minimum nice place to stay, And really enjoy helping others learn. Most of the work on a ICF house wall can construction can be done by the home owner himself. Where is Michigan do you live? I’m presently in Louisiana.
@@stephentaylor9366 I appreciate that. I live just outside Grand Rapids. Send me an email @ beard0797@msn.com and we can chat more about the details. Thanks again.
@@stephentaylor9366 are you originally from North Dakota?
@@rc5411No
ICF is definitely a good way to go. Who else would like to see a Matt Risinger ICF home?
I really wish he'd do a lot more ICF videos. Including wiring, additional insulation, siding or exterior finish, internal wiring, plumbing, installing floors, roofs, etc. Concerns about spalding, internsection of the base etc.
The reason we tilt the wall in slightly, 1/4”-3/8”, is because the braces can easily be pushed against the block to straighten the wall but pulling it back will pull the bracing off since it is screwed into the polypropylene. To be more accurate you tilt the wall slightly towards the bracing.
Robert that is a very useful bit of information.
The ICFs also micro settle and if the bracing is rigidly attached, the ICFs will naturally lean away from the bracing as wall is filled. Prep for this by leaning it into the bracing.
The ICF house I built had adjustable bracing so you could build the wall to finished height and then adjust for plumb
I like to toe in, then adjust after the pour is complete. Braces are designed to push, not pull. If that wall settles "out" during the pour, you could be in for a world of hurt.
Oh but he said how strong screwing into the foam was, blahahaha
I love how you told us the inside info like there getting charge 40k to run power and its cheaper to run a solar power system
That is just one of the hidden charges no one tells you. Impact fees, Traffic fees, Drainage fees, Fire Department fees, School District fees, Water fees, Sewer fees, whatever other BS fees corrupt officials implement. They are usually calculated by the square footage of a building so I don't even want to imagine what their total fees are at 7000 square feet.
@@MrJramirex it's not a hidden charge, they are deep in the country. I'm willing to bet one of the first things people look into when looking for rural property to purchase is whether or not there is power nearby. If the nearest power line is 5 miles away, the power company isn't going to just spend tens of thousands of dollars running power to your house so you can pay them a couple hundred bucks a month.
I do agree with you that there are always tons of red tape and made up fees, but this isn't one of them. It could be paying for transformers, lines, labor, poles, permits, obtaining easements, etc. If the power company agrees to bring power to you, they are signing up to maintain those lines forever. You may only use the house 2 weeks of the year, but they have to keep them going year round. No one will be happy if they just abandon the poles in place after you die or move out either. The power utility is there to make money obviously. Even co-ops and municipal utilities can't just connect everyone for free. If I live 5 miles outside of a nearby town, would I expect the town to run water and sewer all the way to my house just for me? They would go bankrupt if they did that for everyone.
@@commoncentstx I'm actually getting a property a little over a mile from the grid...and APS (Scrooges that they are) want $120k to run power to my property. So instead I'm going to be putting in a $10k small solar system and take advantage of living in South Phoenix.
On the east coast of Canada, friends lost power for a week during a winter storm and their ICF house dropped 2 degrees Celsius over the week. It is very quiet and cozy year round!
Alan Barnhill isolated thermal mass is a wonderful way to build
In Sothern Europe this is how everything is built. This year my grandmothers house, which has no insulation but is fully concrete - we got hit with 115F for 7 days straight. No air conditioning... the house held under 80F, except for the last day where the concrete was hot by then... since even nights were at 95F or so by the 5th day, the thermal mass started working against us :D but nonetheless, remarkable result.
Also, during nights when it gets to around 30F, without heat, the house never gets below 62 F
Salvador heat is one thing, the humidity is a whole other ball game in heat
@@NoRoads2AllRoads If the concrete walls are insulated, say, with styrofoam, you'll be getting only slight temperature fluctuations over long periods of time, e.g. winter/ summer.
@@DobruchT yup I know, thermal mass is great, however during long periods of time like it happened this summer, where we had 115F FOR almost 2 weeks straight and with lows in the 90s is inevitable that the concrete heats up like crazy
One more thing Matt... About cost. One thing I haven't heard you mention is the impact of design on cost. In the project you show here (which is really nice by the way) the owners have that turret or round section, they also have that safe room/cellar, then the design has 14 - 90 degree corners and 4 - T-wall connections. That is a very labor intensive project. Now, I understand that they are installing the forms themselves, but if anyone else had to pay installers for this job, the installed cost would definitely be more than $15 per square foot of wall. Additionally, the square footage of the walls is typically calculated as if the walls were solid, without doors and windows. Why ? Because it gives a more standardized way of estimating costs.
Think about it, installing a solid ICF wall goes really fast compared to a wall where you have many openings for doors and windows. Installing openings in any wall type slows the process down and requires additional materials. If the installed cost was calculated from the square footage of the solid wall portions (after subtracting for doors and windows), it would mean that a wall with a lot of doors and windows would cost less than a solid wall, which is NOT the case. The savings on the concrete do not nearly offset the additional labor and other materials required to properly install the opening frame. When you have any type of opening in a concrete wall, you have to create a lintel and the entire opening has to be engineered, reinforced and properly attached. That takes time which means additional costs. Fortunately, a good ICF manufacturer will provide installers and customers with engineering tables for rebar reinforcement for most typical situations.
My installation pricing assumes straight (not curved) walls and usually includes up to 6 corners. Anything beyond that has a fee: Additional corners beyond 6, curved walls, beam pockets, floor system connections for multi-story projects, etc.
In short, the fancier the design, the higher the cost.
Finally, I wouldn't recommend that someone new to ICF's gets into installing a fancy project like this one UNLESS they are assisted by someone that has sufficient installation experience. That is why some ICF manufacturers will only sell their product through properly trained installers. Otherwise, someone will make a mess and blame it on the brand or on the system (ICF) when the real issue is a poor installation.
I'm curious as to what is that round section for?
I wonder if somebody makes prefab blocks with properly engineered openings as I believe, it is much easier to manufacture them at the factory, then make in the field?
We built our ICF house in 1998, BlueMaxx forms. They were bought out be another company. We did build it ourselves. 20+ yrs in Indiana and we love this house. Put a metal roof on it and the house will last 100's of yrs. We even used Icynene spray foam insulation under the roof deck. When the worst storms happen we can't even hear them in the home.
This channel is the largest treasure I found so far in 2021. Thank you.
Yes! Loved this video. Looking forward to the waterproofing video
I'm a retired firefighter. I wish I had my pictures of an ICF house that had a fire. Here's what I've seen.
Concrete may be considered "non-combustible" but the contents on the room, called the fuel load, are usually not. These materials can burn long enough and hot enough to heat the room up to 800-900 degrees. Spalling occurs as low as 250 degrees F. At 550-600 degrees F concrete will begin to expand. If one side of the wall is expanding at a different rate than the other side serious structural damage can occur. Above 600 degrees concrete will begin to lose structural capacity.
Having said that... I must tell you that I love ICF houses. A contractor friend built two of them. His houses are 4 times the size of my house. His year 'round heating and cooling bill is the same as mine. During construction a small tornado went over his house an tore up some trees in his neighbor's back yard. He didn't even know it went by.
Love the build show Matt. Thank you for your dedication and hard work.
What do you think even a small internal fire is going to do to the styrofoam?
@@elrolo3711 It's impossible to say because "small internal fire" doesn't give us any information to go on.
As you know, fire needs an ignition source, fuel and oxygen. What would happen depends on the availability of those things in the room. Every situation has to be sized up independently.
My department once got called out at 2 AM for a small, unattached garage fire. The owner of the garage had large vats of fryer grease which he was converting into bio diesel. The experiment got away on him which made him very popular with the neighborhood because it smelled like a giant burnt french fry for several days.
A small fire can generate lots of heat so I would say that if you can put it out with a bucket of water probably nothing. BUT - In any room and contents fire you should consult a professional.
if the interior has drywall over the internal insulation, wouldn't that separate the ICF from the flames? Does that make a difference?
@@slicktires2011 Yes. Drywall will slow down a fire and shield concrete to a degree. What needs to be considered is the fuel load. How much of the contents in the room is flammable? If the fire has no fuel it will move on. If it has fuel and oxygen it will stay in one spot and cook everything.
Would an indoor sprinkler system help prevent an interior fire from causing the damage described above?
I own a ICF house in eastern WA and he is wrong about the R rating. I get about 4 feet of snow here. Sometimes more sometimes less, but with out my hydronic heat working and a fireplace rated for 1200 feet in a 3000 foot house we were comfy. In the summer like now, with no cooling we stay about 70 when its almost 98 out side. Ground temp helps greatly. I am going to hate selling this house when I am done rebuilding it. It was left vacant for 7 years and got attacked by drug addicts. They cut and took anything worth a buck and some not worth anything. They cut all the copper out of the attic, all that is left from my hydronic heat is the pex lines poking out of the slab. I have been watching LOTS of your videos for help. You have been a huge help and with about 6 months to a year worth of work left, I can see me returning to your channel again. Thanks for the help.
Matt, great video, you have consistently high quality content.
My wife and I built an ICF home in TN two years ago and are very happy with the result. We did all the block work ourselves. 5000ft2 at $80.00 a square foot finished and this is with high end finishes and 10 ft ceilings downstairs 9 ft upstairs. Building costs in our area are around $150.00 ft2.
We found the block and rebar very easy to use and install. It is actually fun to work with and because it is so easy to use and so lightweight we found it safer than working with conventional framing materials.
Getting a good bracing system is critical and for novice builders I would recommend you hire someone to help with the pour. We had two guys come out the day before and then were there for the day of the pour. Our walls are very straight and plumb.
We have a stucco exterior which basically makes this a fireproof home and as a result our insurance rates are lower.
We have seen really good performance in terms of utility costs (significantly lower than neighbors with much smaller, conventionally built homes). One thing that ICF does not get enough credit for is that not only is the foam continuous but the concrete is as well. As a result there is little or no air exchange though the walls which helps significantly to make the house more energy efficient.
We did not do a basement so our waterproofing was not an issue.
Just think Dude, you sound like a troll. Just shut up and move along! No this is not a 9000 sqft house, it’s 7200. This house has 9000 sqft of total WALL area! The vertical square footage of the WALLS!
Just think in what part of my reply gives you the impression that I don’t know what I’m talking about? you can’t even comprehend simple details from the video! Not to mention you repeated the same comment to multiple people as if they could care less. You’re just babbling at this point.
Copy Paste. How many times are you going to post this?
@@justthink5854 pouring a walk 12" thick with number 6 and 7 rebar what are you building that sounds like commercial building specs not residential.
Just think , the design load for soils pressure laterally varies by clay content of soil, drainage of soil, length and height of wall and engineers training with risk factor. I have many basements installed in Icf that are 10' high x40' long or more using 5 verticals 16"oc. with 4 horizontal or tension 16"oc.in 8" walls. These are all engineered walls. Icf walls hold the bleed water in the concrete and cure the concrete to as much as 20 percent stronger, I pour 4000 psi that regularly tests at 5400-5800 psi in Icfs.
As Devon said, You should vibrate. I built my 30 in stem wall from ICF (foxblock), A benefit Matt didn't directly mention is no forming with metal or wood forms, that have to be bought or rented, erected, stripped, and stored or returned. This a lot of work and expense. Also, there is a company that has a block that is much thicker on the outside than the inside.( "the perfect block" ) the insulation is better, and they claim an effective R-50. Then there is the issue of wiring and plumbing. You cut a channel. You can apply stucco directly to some types of block. Doing your homework is crucial. Think deep.
Yep, its a clip that pulls the blocks together (fox block) and makes the stack more rigid. I didn't brace the 30" wall at all.
Inside you mount 2 by 2 studs and thin Rockwool between. Drywall over that. That way you can mount pipes and so on easy.
Tom Tillman, I only know of one ICF maker that does such sizes, and I am not going to say here to give it away to others but its initials are QL if I am not wrong of who you are talking about with various thickness of panels.
Joshua79C C Why wouldn't you want to give it away?
Just think, rebar thickness and concrete thickness is determined by floor systems
What a cool project, I can't wait to see this take shape as it progresses. Keep 'em coming!
Love the idea of ICFs. Would love to see more about this build especially the suspended section.
Really appreciate your input on this as I've been looking at ICF for quite a while. Always love your content - fantastic!
Mads Christensen check out Hobbs Verticle ICF they solve some of the issues with block ICF
This is a lot of screwing around for a wall that has way too many penetrations. We just pour walls, spray them with a elastomeric and glue 2” ground contact blue board on the outside and then drape heavy Polly from the bolts down to the footing. Super strong, no excess penetrations, highly waterproof,with a fraction of the labor an no Blow Out Risk! You can insulate to your hearts content on the inside!
Matt, thanks for covering this.
I am in the exact same place this client is regarding ICF construction.
Great video Matt! It was very informative. You always bring us great content and we always appreciate it.
Thank you for making this video it helped me tremendously for my construction class.
So basically :
- Higher upfront cost /sq. Ft of wall. ( but you save on insulation work ).
+ lower utility costs due to continuous insulation.
+ lower insurance cost.
+ lower maintenance cost.
Pay me now, or pay me later!
And you save on home insurance. Bugs won't eat it and fire won't burn it.
Not really. A 2x4 wall with continuous R30 exterior rockwool insulation over continuous Grace water/vapor barrier is only $7/sf. Here he is quoting ICF as $10/sf without labor. So ICF is still more expensive even including insulation and waterproofing. Utility cost is the same, insurance cost is the same if the threats are fire or earthquake rather than hurricane, and maintenance cost depends on siding rather than structure -- ICF is much more expensive to modify if that counts as part of "maintenance costs". Insects love to tunnel through foam, all the way up to your wood roof structure, so it gives a false sense of security that way.
"The owners are a younger couple; they're about my age."
I see what you did there.
U picked up on that too
The thing is, him saying that makes everybody feel younger it is like magic
So fucking funny comment.
You'll truly "see" what he did there once you get to be his age. :-)
Great video! Great topic! Thank you very much for your time and help!!👍
Good to see Matt talking about ICF. Keep them coming!
Finally an ICF video. Been waiting forever. Love the vids and the info you provide.
Looking forward to the waterproofing episode, as I am planning on building a very large ICF basement in the near future. Keep up the good work.
There is plenty of pre-existing ICF waterproofing videos on here they all show either spray on or stick on membranes, but with any foundation like he said, and as a former waterproofing professional I suggest also installing a outside "french" drainage system with gravel and perforated pipes wrapped in permeable cloth to keep out rocks and other debris for the most part.
Finally! I haven't even watched this yet and I'll guarantee it's awesome. Your content and delivery are always spot on. I sure as hell hope you stay on TH-cam vs taking one of the inevitable network offers that are bound to come your way
This was really helpful, I have read a little about ICF and it looks interesting so really appreciate the concise review.
"If someone is yelling on the inside of this wall I'm not going to hear that on the outside." 11:45
Great for your torture dungeon!!! :-)
Kinda what I was thinking....You know, some Chianti and Fava beans while your victim settles down.
Haha. Works the other way around too. No more being bothered by the party next door or the neighbor’s dogs barking all day long.
Or an indoor shooting range. :)
I was thinking of sound proofing as a negative. I like to hear the sounds of nature. Then again with a storm raging outside it might be easier to sleep if I can’t hear it.
@@4philipp...you can always open a window/door if you want to hear what is outside.
Awesome video. I'd love to see more ICF related videos as I'd like to build an ICF house one day. :D Thanks for doing this one.
Great Review.....A honest and fair assessment of ICF walls....Thanks
Delivered a load with them to build site 2 months ago, owners loved it !!! R value is huge.
Hi Matt, Nice explanation and video of icf building; Do you have a video of pouring the second story floors, and the upper walls, roof?? I'd love to see it if you have one of each level.
I have been studying icf for far too long and still learned a fair amount from this video. Thanks for sharing!
Super excited to see the waterproofing!!
Great Video, Matt. My friend built an ICF house with minimal help, although some, at the California Coast, and he loves it for the reasons you highlighted. Great job!
Matt, excellent video with a good balance of commentary plus and minus. I am a general contractor in New Mexico that only builds with Icf and vary the products from different manufacturers to the requirements of the building based on experience with many different systems. I use one system that has true R values up to R84 for a walk in freezer. The fly wheel effect of heat storage from the concrete in climate zone 5 amounts to about 84 hours of storage of heat versus 14.5 hours for a 2x6 stick frame wall for a 3000 sq. Ft. House so the same amount of heat loss can be measured. Several of my houses have proved this out. People get lost in the hype from different brands but true noticeable difference shows up when you change exterior foam by R10 amounts or 2 1/2" layers. I appreciate the videos you produce for fair and accurate reporting. One other thing the EPS foam gains R value below 30 degrees and other types of foam lose R value. EPS also has a faster wet to dry ability. Dave Taylor Taylord Designs
Thanks for that info
Good to see the input from an actual builder using ICF, I built a house in Australia with ICF and it was pretty easy
If they are going to pour a suspended concrete floor on top of the ICF walls - I'd love to see that - before, during, after, the whole enchilada.
Back in the day as a carpenter apprentice, I worked on big commercial projects where pouring suspended slabs was a regular occurrence. However, the slabs themselves were all engineered - the concrete mix design, the steel reinforcement, beams, columns. The false work (forms, scaffolding etc) itself was engineered to support the massive loads while the concrete cured. I don't know of any residential projects where the main floor (not on grade) was poured in place concrete but I see the ICF vendors make styrofoam forms for the application so it must be feasible now somehow. I'm really curious.
See, now in South Africa, poured in place concrete slabs are common for residential. Rib and block shuttering is probably 90% of the market.
Randy Dueck i
They just put trusses and metal decking then pour the concrete
I did that with my house. We used the Ecospan flooring system and it worked out pretty well.
We used one of the first systems (polysteel later called Ice block) in Colorado and were really impressed.
Great Overview, Matt!!!
Used the ICFs for 4ft frost walls here in Maine...radiant heated garage/workshop with large apartment above.
Only made sense where I needed to keep the heat in the slab and the strength of the walls to support the weight of a full size cape with dormers both sides of the roof.
A full ICF house looks like quite a project!
The ICF frost walls worked out great for radiant heated slabs.
Cons: Can be a nitemare to pour with all that rebar/stands in the way.
Ants love to build homes in the foam...treat the ground and don't bury your old tree trunks on site!
Puoring concrete in any kind of form (including ICF) with rebar in it, is a "normal" thing to do. It has been done for over hundred years.
We built the first 2 storey (Basement + 2 more) ICF house in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada 30 years ago that has been trouble-free and a real pleasure to live in. All of your so-called negatives are minor to trivial compared to the very inferior nature of a stick frame house.
Thanks for your help Matt, your videos are very informative. I'll be doing a 35' high ICF wall soon and the info learned from your video has boosted my confidence. Thanks again.
We're gearing up for our first build. It's going to be our forever home.
Matt. I can't express how much I appreciate your content. Your advice has shaped our building plans.
Thank you very much.
I'm going to try ghetto ICF...free pallets stuffed with foam packing waste with 1 foot of adobe in between wrapped in layered plastic wrap for the water barrier and hold in cob patches.
How is that goin broskie
11:56 cost; 14:27 cons of this project.
ON the build SHOW!!!!! Awesome video. Thank you.
Great video. Helped me decide on my choice. Appreciate your time
Good video Matt, I would add that vibrating the concrete during the pour would be advised. As you would not truly know what voids are possibly left in the wall since there are no forms to remove.
On the 12" fox block schools I did electrical on. They vibrated the walls while filling them. Some of the chases especially the wider ones for ducting and windows had large voids under them.
Our electrical chases were simply 6" pvc through the walls and we left them in.
On the voids found once the forms were pulled the general went back in a poured the voids with quickcrete and a wheelbarrow. Didn't take too much to fix them.
frankly that should be a standard part of ANY wall pour
It's most common to use a special icf mix or "pea" mix on the pour which is wetter and thinner with smaller stones to reach bottom plus the pours are limited to 7 feet or so at a time, no matter the height.
@@justthink5854 You cannot build a DAM to hold water. Any builder knows how to put in a drainage system at the footing level.
@@nevermindthebull0ckstwelve-inch concrete reinforced concrete walls would be great to stop army tanks from entering the building.
Great video! I want to do ICF for my dream home build.
Great video Matt. Will be watching your next video on waterproofing.
Definitely looking forward to the waterproofing followup.
Been waiting for this one!
Thanks Mark!
I agree, ICF is great but it has some cons. My wife and I have been working on a Nudura ICF house that we picked up as an unfinished "dried in" project. On Nudura the plastic studs in the wall aren't quite as strong as 2x4's but it has a vertical stud every 8''. The screws will strip out easier than a 2x if you go too hard with drill/impact. I did an experiment with ring shank nails and they will hold, but I concluded screws have superior holding power. You will have to screw everything on (no nail guns). It is slower, more labor intensive, and screws are more expensive than nails. Also you will have to sheath any load bearing interior walls with plywood for hanging anything heavy like cabinets, water heaters etc. Because of it's nontraditional construction: Expect to have difficulty finding qualified contractors to work on it. When they find out its ICF the labor cost automatically increases (they probably assume you're rich, lol). The insulation/thermal mass of the structure is very good. It is extremely quiet. Oh and it's literally bullet proof.
Nails are great only for shear strength where most all screws will fail at while you found out the screws offer great holding power or tensile strength, besides I never heard or seen anyone nail in drywall but have seen the likes of April Wilkerson who installed plywood inside her new shop using screws which allow for easy unfastening to access the interior behind the are for installing such as AC and recently also a ducted vacuum system.
Great video Matt. You covered it well, especially important are the risks of failure due to lack of knowledge and experience. I would strongly recommend to work with a contractor on projects, get product manufacturer installer certification prior to attempting a project. As you say pour day is where all the preparations result in success or failure. My experience was with Blue Maxx in Ont. Now seeing numerous projects using Nudura on the sunshine coast, BC.
Matt, I'm not a builder, but your videos are super interesting and so well presented. Looking forward to the next one!
Good video Matt, I have an ICF BuildBlock home myself and I'd highly recommend it for anyone. My electric bill in one third to a half of conventional home of equal size in my area and that's per Duke Energy Electric! BuildBlock was interested in the article the local news had in the newspaper as well as my electric bill figures and posted in on their website. Thanks!
Did you DIY it or hire a contractor? Any tips for us? Thanks!
My local rep from BuildBlock here lead the way! He was instrumental in doing most of the ICF work and I helped him with others in completing the ICF structure and pour. I couldn't have done it without him!
Thanks!
Here is the article that Fred mentioned! buildblock.com/lasting-effects-icfs/
I used to deliver this stuff from one of the first companies to offer this system (american polysteel ) and they always had to list the R value as R22 because building inspectors would make them prove any claim over that at a cost of thousands of dollars so they just said R-22 it was probably nearer to a 38 back then and that was 1992 and they were building in Alaska back then It's great to build with but HELL to haul on the flat bed going down the highway a whole load for one house took a 48 ft trailer but only weighed 3800 lbs
Saw a motorcade of flatbeds hauling that shit a few weeks back. They definitely didn't have it tied down properly. Almost caused a massive accident on a 4 lane interstate.
I saw a DOT officer just goin off on one of the drivers, then a short bit up the road I see the other trucks pulled over checking and tieing down their load properly.
Awesome informational Video Matt ! Thanks for sharing this with us. Would like to see what the house looks like when its all said and done.
Always a great video
I am actually planning on building my own cabin. Around 700sq foot to retire in. (Also here in Georgia). My first thought was to pay someone to dry it in then I can do the finish work. But I like this idea. i will have to do more research on this. I may take that leap.
Many home owners have done it themselves for new home of a size they can handle alone or with some reliable enough helping hands, some have even did add on renovations with ICF foundation DIY style. Some of the manufacturers have DIY DVD, they also may list or provide via request for Seminar information which you can attend for a small fee for a day or two of hands on how to. They also have channels on here that show some how to stuff. Then again it depends on the extent of the build and how complex it is that determines how much you can DIY without a team of installers.
It's pretty easy, just basic tools and a little bit of common sense
@@Joshua79C We are looking for a an installer and for a contractor. Any recommendations for Fulton County GA?
@@Beone2know you ever find one? Im in coweta looking for one.
It is not done more because of comfort of builders with a product they do not know. Matt mentioned some of the things you have to pay attention to. Of the four barriers, water is the most important detail. Air is second and ICFs are great air barriers. The foam and concrete are also vapor barriers so you really need to control the breathing of your home with air exchangers.
And R value is just one variable in thermal comfort and energy efficiency. Concrete has a high thermal mass so it is a thermal barrier. With styrofoam thermal breaks the wall has a tendency to want to stay the same temperature. Once it is warm or cold it stays there. Same theory behind bermed houses. High thermal mass.
beamed houses are not simply a thermal mass issue-the ground temp syrrorundign wall stays more constant, water inner, cooler in summer.
Yes!!!! Thank you for your input on ICF houses! I’ve seen all of the ICF hype from various websites but I wanted to hear it from someone who is not getting paid. I’m really looking forward to the waterproofing video. Also if you want to show how they hang the flooring, I think a lot of people would be interested in that process as well.
Thanks, great info as always!
R value with ICF is almost meaningless. I know a few people in Michigan with full ICF homes. 1 with a 12" wall and 1 with a 6" wall like this one and NONE OF THEM have heating/cooling issues. The 6" has heating/cooling expenses that's less than 1/2 of their old house and my friend with the 12" doesn't even have a HVAC system !!!! So R value has little meaning with ICF because the thermal mass plays a much bigger role than you realize.
mass can not act as insulation to stop heat transfer. It just acts as a battery in that it stores heat. But you still have to pay to heat that mass. So when the cold weather comes, the concrete will stay warmer for a big longer, but eventually it will be cold and will now require that much more energy to heat it up. You can't save money without stopping energy transfer, and mass does nothing to stop energy transfer. In fact, mass absorbs energy, it acts as a heat sink.
@@marks6663 The concrete sits on a footer which sits on the ground. Bury the wall with four feet of dirt, and insulate outside the footer, and you have a concrete R-1 pipe from the earth's ground temperature (50F year round) into your wall. It's not about the mass of the concrete. It's the fact that it acts as a heat pipe from underground. Then, inside the house, you're only insulating a 20F difference.
Cyberslug1 do you know who they used for the construction?
I agree about the Green Building Advisor, I've read articles there where they advocate installing 16" of XPS UNDER the basement floor and to me that is just extreme overkill and a waste of resources to insulate against 53 degree temps.
It's most likely on heated floors, where you have 53 degree temp in the ground but 80 or 90 in the concrete, so you have a constant 40 degree delta T. The heat would move towards the 53 degree ground more then the 70 degree house.
Built a three storey ICF and love it to bits.
Thanks Matt for doing this video. Given your years of high-quality construction, I appreciate your take on this building technique and your list of pros and cons.
Looking forward to the next one.
BTW, there are concrete additives that make concrete nearly water proof, like Hycrete. I don't know why basement foundations do not use Hycrete or another product like it. I'm not in construction, but my only guess is the extra cost. Also, these products help prevent the steel rebar from rusting, too. I'd love to know why. Thanks again.
Matt I enjoyed your video on ICF homes, in 2008 my wife and I completed our ICF home in Marathon Florida as you well know hurricane Irma struck us a year ago I have some very compelling videos during the course of this hurricane as well as video of myself in my attic in which i used closed cell foam on underside of the roof structure and I know you’ve been a strong advocate of closed cell foam as well . I am a third Generation contractor from Western New York if you’re interested in seeing the videos or discussing ICF further don’t hesitate to contact me,
Norman, I would be very interested in hearing more about your build. Hopefully Matt can swing by in the winter?
cmm170526 Matt we have a two bedroom two bath guest apartment in our home if you would like to spend a couple days in the Florida Keys this winter would be fine
Norman philipps I do!
Norman philipps You might put them up on your channel! That would be incredible to see
Norman philipps I would love to talk with you about your ICF construction. I am looking to build next year.
I believe that the insurance rates for an ICF home are significantly less also. * Check with your insurance provider for info formation on your area. * Another potential positive to an ICF build .
Yes sure, your furniture is burned, roof is gone, insulation melted, but your concrete walls still standing. That a big win 🤔
I mean, a lot of the video was talking about disaster resistance. Insurance companies can do the math.
Just think, IN WHAT UNIVERSE DO YOU NEED A 12" concrete wall? maybe you should learn how concrete walls work before you blindly mouth off constantly the same shit post, ALL of the projects we have done basement walls on hillsides have all been 10" walls. there are MANY factors that effect the thickness and reinforcement requirements of concrete walls, we often add "deadmen" (a 3-4 foot long concrete wall sticking out perpendicular to the wall) as a method of reinforcing long walls and we are in the North Georgia Mountains dealing with similar soil conditions. and the SIZE of the house has got fuck all to do with the power requirements of the house, sure thats probably a bit undersized, but thats the beauty of solar, you can expand if you find you need more, when I was living alone in the house my mom had up for sale after she moved to Florida I moved down into the basement, swapped the old light bulbs for LED's and NEVER used more then 10 Kw TOTAL each day (maybe 12-13 on Laundry day, fucking dryers), if you have Propane you can use that for Heat, you can get a Dryer that runs off Propane, Gas Ranges in your kitchen that are fully Propane, Propane tankless water heaters, you basically end up with your LIGHTS, TV's, Computers, Refrigerator and the blower fan of the central air is all you gotta power in Winter and you can get a 5.3 Kw Solar Panel Kit from Home Depot for 10k before tax credits which will give you at least 20 KwH a day worth of power, which goes a LONG LONG way when BIG SCREEN TV's use a mere 100 watts and light bulbs use like 4-6 watts, around here summer time A/C usage is one of the biggest power usages (are power bill doubles in the summer), it's also common practice to have a backup generator that runs on the propane in case of extended periods of low sun. still they are HALF the cost of just having a power line RUN to the house, never mind paying for power all the years they live there, so they got room to spend a bit more if they need to.
You can do the same with proper frame house. I live in northern climate. Use mineral wool for insulation. My walls as follows from the inside
1. Double 2x plasterdoard
2. Steel frame 3" with mineral wool insulation between
3. Vapor barrier
4. OSB
5. 8" main frame (20 cm) with mineral wool insulation between (two layers 4" each for overlaying)
6. 2" horizontal studs with mineral wool insulation between
7. 2"vertical studs mineral wool insulation between
8. 1"Wood fiber board with bitumen layer for air and water protection (0.042 W/mK)
9. 1 1/4" air vent and wooden cladding .
Total U value- 0.102 (W/m2K) including wood thermal bridging. But its estimated that orientation of studs doesn't change. In my case orientation changes so thermal bridging is gone.
And this is cheaper than ICF :) Maybe in country, but trust me we are 98% brick and concrete builders :). For us frame houses is innovative and smart building technology :). With this concrete non sense your are going backwards not forward. For hot climates might be different, I don't know. But for me, when in winter temperature drops bellow -20C and summers are warm but dry, I used this technology and I know that I will have passive house for the price of brick or concrete non sense with lower U-value. Also, the smell, no humidity. My overall wall thickness is almost 20". With 2x plasterboard and independent steel frame from inside I don't care about fire or moving walls.
Dainevas 20" walls. lmmfao
Love the idea of ICFs. Thanks for bringing up several points of clarification, especially the water proofing.
As he said, no basement is not going to be waterproof after construction and thus will require such along the way before being backfilled and hopefully with a permeable (gravel and perforated pipe) drain system also installed.
I admire that your program has developed into a open platform the gives positive and negative points in building I appreciate that your showing and discussing energy issues concerns as well as potential water problems. I can see your program expanding to show a wider range of heating products water collection,grey water. Solar and wind looking forward to input from other professionals and your up coming cable program good on you
Matt - Thank you. Know you have a healthy skepticism of ICF construction - am sure well earned - and based at least in part on the realities of inexperience by the needed trades to execute. Ironically - its sound/airseal qualities - two areas you near and dear to you - are unmatchable. One suspects that if you were to build 3 or 4 of these - you would develop some superb hybrid of traditional stick + ICF! Much appreciated you getting out of the comfort zone a little to start talking about these - would love to see some more and some varied ones that would uncover some best practices to address trouble spots. Thanks again!!!
It is rather ironic that Matt calls himself claims he is a "building scientist", and yet ignores the science of the superior advantages of building with ICFs: time, cost, efficiency, durability, safety... etc.
He is waiting to get paid for his endorsement
That's neat. thinking about doing offgrid owner built in TN because of the cost of running electricity. Solar overall offgrid is a little more expensive (inverters, batteries, etc.) but with Lithium batteries it's becoming a really competitive option in the sticks. For me a 2k sq ft house with solar (12kw) batteries, etc. was about 20k in materials. Should provide about 36kw per day in summer and store about 3 days of electricity. That's using effficient appliances, and some big loads on propane.
pretty standard metric. On cloudy days still get 6-12kw, so thats 3 days like nights. also can hookup a generator.
Outstanding, informative video. Particularly your discussion of pros and cons, and cost. Likely, this video will play a key role in my decision about how to proceed with full basement construction (in Iowa). Thanks much!
Awesome vid as always. Seems like the way to go for owners builds. I've read about ICF passive houses...needed added insulation of course.
More ICF please! I want to build a ICF house in the future. I’m in grad school and work full time right now so I’m planning and learning all I can!
Did I hear you correctly that you can build a less expensive basement with a higher R value. . .please explain. . . .in detail. As always great info. thank you, Danny
Watch and isten again when he explains saying why it is has higher r-value
Matt, Welcome to Georgia! Really enjoyed the video, the R value comments and the off grid aspect to this project are interesting. The whole time you are presenting I kept wondering how those blocks were going to be waterproofed... glad you addressed that and look forward to the next installment. Want to wish homeowners/builders best of luck in completing their home on time and within budget. I do wonder how they financed this project ...
Great video! Would love to see more on ICF best practices.
Matt do a talk about SIPs (structural insulated panels)
Buildblock and Foxblocks both have an entire series of videos on how to build a house start to finish. Just do a TH-cam or a Google search.
He did a video comparing three systems: stud framed with shot foam, SIP, and ICF.
"this video isn't sponsored by them, but I would gladly change that for the right price." haha!
Nice, looking forward to the next video.
I saw a guy in Long Beach, Mississippi building 15-18 foot raised ICF house with concrete floors three houses from Beach Blvd just before Hurricane Katrina and I drove there on Christmas Eve a few months later. The house was the only structure standing. I saw the finished product in 2012 and he still has a great view of the Gulf.
Hi Matt, i was just wonder if you can do a video that compare the cost of ICF price vs the traditional framing 4" stud vs the 6" stud (included all insulated material) and the R value different?
Thank you very much for this video it is amazing!
Probably check ICF websites or call them
Matt, you mentioned the ICF cost at $15 per Sq. Ft of the wall. but what could you build a 2x6 stud wall with insulation for?
They never seem to provide the information to make a direct comparison.
I wonder why that is....
It's easy to google. Here' s a calculator
porch.com/project-cost/cost-to-frame-a-wall
Looks like about $3 to $4 per square foot. Probably more for 10' high walls than for 8' high walls but likely under $4.50.
The 2x6 wall will cost you more as time goes on. You have the thermal break to contend with forever in that wall. You can only stuff so much insulation in a stud wall.
The other thing Matt didn't mention is your home insurance is much less because there is so much less to burn. Especially when you use the Quad Lock concrete roofing system.
@@mikebigelow9057 Here in Finland you typically install additional EPS board with aluminium foil outside the stud wall to make a constant thermal break. When you tape those EPS boards together with aluminium tape, you get waterproofing and wind protection at the same time
Great Content i need more ICF information i love it thanks Matt
I moved from Houston to Park City UT, next week looking at home in Moab thats ICF and also very expensive. this was very helpful
Hi Matt you have some great ideas and I've actually used them on my jobs.
I install a lot of hardie board and have installed over icf with furring strips and 1"1/2 roofing nails and found over time the board's started to sag I've also screwed it directly to the icf with much better results .
There is some great products being used in my area (ottawa canada) but with no thought on what types of material is being secured to it. I would love to see a video or hear something from you on how to address these types of issues. Cheers
Build Block has their hard points at 6 inches on center, some others have strips spaced every 12 oc, one has panels with fastening strips molded in spaced at 12" o.c and their ties also add connection points with the ties have two points just 4 inches apart. Never saw anything in a hardee board brochure or their website saying it could be fastened the way you first did as you found out why, Neighboring business has some old siding removed and replaced with hardee board fastened flat to the wall, they have yet to paint it and now have white vinyl and a pale tan like hardee section.
Sagging is a result of an inferior ICF system, or poor installation not securing into the hard points in the internal webbing of the ICF/EPS form.
@@Joshua79C Every siding manufacturer would prefer if there product is installed over strapping for breathability and When doing so with HB I always get unsatisfactory results.
My comment was more towards new product being used with no thought for the next guy coming along
watched April Wilkerson build her new shop and she fastened the HB directly to the wall, no strapping/strips, I never read anywhere in the instructions it has to be fastened with strips behind it, like I previously said. Never seen any siding installed this way with the necessity for strapping to give it "breathing" room when fastening.
Joshua79C C I don't understand furing strips on an ICF. The only reason would be for breathability/drainage. But it makes no sense to me for HB or most siding. Furring strips would be for providing an attachment point, and with any decent ICF, it will have the attachment points build into the form. Material cost, labor, and increased failure don't seem worth the risk of pseudo-science benefit of breathability/drainage.
What's up with that circular part of the house? I hadn't seen that in ICF
Possibly a spiral staircase.
you can't hear screams or yelling from outside ... looks kinda like a well .. maybe buffalo bill is going to live there ?? lol
@@jb_90265 lol
Its their new radius wall blocks. I know of about every ICF manufacturer, they are the first to introduce preformed radius blocks so no need to cut as required to form a radius.
Every man's home a castle.
- Robin of Loxley
By far the best and most informative channel on TH-cam.
This is a great video. Thanks for posting it. $15 per square foot wall isn’t crazy expensive for what you get. I like!
My son is singing the outro music :)
kmonnier, I love this music and have been trying to figure out who does it for a while! Can you send a link to the whole song.
Yes EPS has a fire retardant in it which slows down the spread of fire but the problem is that it melts near any heat source so if a fire starts inside the building the ESP melts quickly and producers strong fumes
In Australia I have worked with ESP panel over 25 years and have seen the results of fire on ESP there's nothing left. In commercial and industrial work in Australia insurance company's are giving better premium cover if we use PIR panel which has a higher fire rating the panel only scaled not incinerate.
Do you use PIR in the United States
Which PIR panel do you use
Is there more than one in Australia as far as I known the one we used is base on UK /European panel but we do make PIR in Australia now
You kept typing ESP when it is EPS for Expanded Polystyrene
Typos
These panels are known in the US as polyisocyanurate (or simply “polyiso”) at supply stores. I cannot imagine how the terms are actually pronounced because I read them in magazines such as the Journal of Fine Homebuilding or the Journal of Light Construction. Employees at supply stores simply call them foam boards, a term that does not distinguish them from other types of “foam boards” such as polystyrene. I think you have eliminated that probkem in Australia. Do you say “peer boards” for PIR panels? We’ll have to start spreading this one around once you clarify the pronunciation......unless you say P-I-R panels??
Another great one! I think you meant difficult to add on but easy to remodel the existing structure.
Pretty Cool Matt, can you please keep us post it about this project. Very interesting.
Job dog at 12:15
amd2800barton nice!
So funny to see this, I've been planning my ICF house with my architect and builder for the past 2 months. It's been fun, I can't wait to live in a Yeti cooler. :)
mytreesloth You should check out Gigacrete.
@@davidjenjustice5517 looks pretty cool..must be a great r-value.
mytreesloth I have my order in with Gigacrete right now. It should be delivered in about three weeks. I decided to go with this type of construction because it appeared to be much faster and easier. The interior and exterior plaster also eliminates drywall inside and any wrapping on the outside. 8" of eps with the plaster coatings give an R factor of 36. I hope to have my house completed by the end of January. This construction also has survived the hurricanes in the islands. I thought that Icf was great, but I thought Gigacrete was a better method. We'll see, my construction starts soon - foundation has been poured.
@@davidjenjustice5517 I'm still in the conception phase, hoping to be started by January lol.. I'm sure each system has pros and cons like anything else. I wish you the best of luck on your build! I can't wait to stop drawing on graph paper and actually start doing something.
@@mytreesloth yes, I thought I would have between completed six months ago.
Please more videos on this stuff, and a follow up on this house please!!!
Very informative. Well made video. Thanks.