Fall Out Boy - Save Rock And Roll - The Comeback Album That Hates You - Video Essay
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2024
- In this special comment and video essay, we discuss Fall Out Boy's 2013 comeback release and unearth the frustrating mess of its antipathy towards its fans.
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Spectrum Pulse, music, review, 2013, Fall Out Boy, Fall Out Boy review, Fall Out Boy album review, Fall Out Boy reaction, Fall Out Boy Save Rock And Roll, Fall Out Boy Save Rock And Roll album review, Fall Out Boy Save Rock and Roll review, Save Rock And Roll, The Youngblood Chronicles, The Phoenix, My Songs Know What You Did In The Dark, Alone Together, Just One Yesterday, The Mighty Fall, Pete Wentz, video essay, Fall Out Boy video essay, Save Rock And Roll video essay, Emo, Young Volcanoes, Where Did The Party Go, Miss Missing You, Rat-A-Tat, Death Valley, Patrick Stump, Fall Out Boy history, Fall Out Boy iceberg, Fall Out Boy - Save Rock And Roll - The Comeback Album That Hates You - Video Essay, So Much For Stardust, Folie a Deux
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#SpectrumPulse #videoessay #falloutboy
"does anyone REALLY wanna talk about Danger Days by My Chemical Romance?"
i like it :(
Same lmao its full of bangers
same :( especially summertime :((
It is very boring IMO. I'd much rather listen to Bullets
Same. Danger Days is fun.
Some minor notes regarding Part 3.5: I only found this out recently myself and it doesn't come up that much, but Pete Wentz is mixed-race himself; his mother is from a Jamaican family and is distantly related to Colin Powell of all people. Additionally, Andrew Hurley is an avowed anarcho-primitivist of all things, and has spoken about his conflicted feelings stemming from his participation in pop culture as someone with *extremely* radical personal politics. Make of these things what you will, I guess.
(All this being said, excellent video. I've never personally been a huge FOB fan, nor a hater for that matter, but this had me consistently engaged throughout.)
FOB was my first big musical love. I discovered them during Infinity on High era, I was 13-14 years old at the time. I ADORED Folie a Deux when it came out and still come back to it quite often. When SRAR came out, I was like "mmm, okay". It's not like I hated it, I just had no feelings whatsoever. I liked only The Phoenix, the other songs seemed forgettable and a bit too simplistic. I fell out of love and completely ignored AB/AP because of that. For some reason last year I relistened all of FOB pre-hiatus works, and I did it even before rumors of a new album started circling around. I feel that love again, and some post-hiatus songs grew on me. It makes me sad that critics are tearing Stardust to pieces now, and for completely different reasons, like "too nostalgic" and "not nostalgic enough". It's uneven, sure, but some of the songs are like the best songs in FOB's entire career. And it feels new even for such an old fan like me (I'm 28 now, GOD).
I don't have a problem with a group making a nostalgic record, just as long as they don't deny it and act like they're making some "continuation" or whatever. Simple Plan's 2022 album is definitely nostalgia fueled, but at least they didn't lie about it.
I actually can’t believe I never made that connection about Courtney Love’s portrayal. Among other things in this excellent essay, that feels like the point you could bring up to someone at a party and watch them go “ohhhh shit I never thought about that”
I think you’re not off at all in seeing that having 2 chainz be the villain destroying rock can def be interpreted as symbolizing rap destroying rock and has some not great racial implications. I doubt that was intentional but it’s still there. That being said, it is worth noting that Pete Wentz is bi racial. Idk if he identifies as black but his mom is black. Knowing that aspect of his identitI feel does complicate interpreting the racial politics of the videos. That being said most people don’t know that about Pete Wentz so your point still stands
just want to say that your longform content always knocks it out of the park, especially your video essays on specific albums! very excited to watch this one :)
Save Rock & Roll was the first album that I remember buying with my own money. I was 14 and thanks to my brothers their influences I was really into the scene of FOB, Panic!, All Time Low, 5 Seconds of Summer, MCR, One Ok Rock and Green Day. Many bands I am still a big fan of now (especially ATL and 5SOS). I used to love this album and now it feels more nostalgic to me more than anything. At 24 now, I see all the problems with the album. However, I would have been damned if 'Alone Together' hadn't existed. That song became one of the songs that I clung onto when shit got too hard, in my darkest moments if you will. It was joined by Missing You by ATL about 2 years later.
Great video though, one of your best to date!
Spectrum Pulse making long-form video essays is what we NEED, so excited to watch this
33:01
One thing that constantly rang through my head as you described Courtney Love's villain role in _The Young Blood Chronicles_ is how it foreshadowed the exact form that a lot of "new-school" misogyny would take in the 2010s, especially after Gamergate. Namely, that they're killjoys who want to get rid of everything fun, and that's why they shouldn't be allowed anywhere near positions of power or authority, because they'll use it to censor everything they don't like. A lot of the energy in modern conservatism and anti-feminism is basically horny Barstool bros for whom the idealized "good old days" to RETVRN to are the age of Woodstock '99, _Maxim_ magazine, _American Pie,_ and Attitude Era pro wrestling, a time when women were sex objects who existed for men's pleasure. Fall Out Boy tried to play it for irony here, but I've seen very similar takes from the manosphere played completely straight.
Even when I loved this album when it first came out. It always felt... spiteful, towards the fans. The hate that Folie got, the sheer stalker-ish behaviour from the fans online, the comments demanding new FOB when they did solo projects, proclaiming they "sold out" when they even remotely pivoted from FUTCT. I was online during that time, it was toxic.
So I don't blame them for having that animosity. But it was so haphazard that it feels like another shitting on teenage girls record from the scene.
it wasn’t aimed towards teenage girls specifically; like you said the entire “fanbase” was pretty hostile to them no matter what moves they made, along w media misrepresentations and the tensions between the band themself having been at an all-time high. they took a break for themselves and came back free from the other crap, but they have mentioned in interviews that the sound was significantly different due to them just trying to survive in a more pop-oriented music scene, & the frustration w that. recently patrick mentioned how they stuck to simpler less verbiage-filled choruses here because the jokes about him being unintelligible got to him . they’ve always stood by in interviews they disliked when ppl called them “a band for teenage girls” bc they said it was an insult to teenage girls’ tastes … limiting what they listen to and disregarding their tastes like they don’t listen to other music as well. it was a breakout, them being against what everyone confined them to while also having to stick to some standards themselves to be able to continue. in their latest album they’ve mentioned being free of that and finally doing what they want and working only with themselves to see the extent of what they can do
post-essay comment (chapter times below):
knocked it out of the park again. your essays are wild and funny, but what i think i appreciate most about them is how thorny they are. i find that i have required rewatches for each one to catch details, whether it's setups for previous points or lines, or in this case where im gna need one simply to fully focus the narrative of fall out boy (a band who i have never engaged much with mostly due to them being associated with some awful people in my life who unfortunately share a lot personally in common with the band themselves). i am also loving how each of them seems to be building off the next to the point where they could nearly be chapters in a collection together! (also if i am reading the title card is that an implication for more essays still to come this year? suuuuuuuper hype if so!)
feel free to tell me to take it down if you don't want this around, but for honestly my own convenience i'm going to be notating the chapter times below:
0:00 Intro
2:19 Part 1: ...Wait, What?!
6:18 Part 2: A Brief, Honest and not Exactly Kind History of Fall Out Boy
16:53 Part 3: The Youngblood Chronicles
25:34 Part 3.5: The Hip-Hop/Rock Tension... Uhhh, Do We Really Want to Get into This... Really?
29:32 Part 4: Don't Look at Me Like That, This Has Been An Issue for Decades and you Know It.
35:07 Part 5: Folie A Deux
45:21 Part 6: Does Rock and Roll Need Saving?
56:41 Part 7: So Much For That
1:01:35 Outro
other notable moments:
9:00 industry plant type beat
12:40 kanye west doesn't understand fall out boy (among other things)
16:20 can i just say that 'the imagine dragon' as an image for soupifying pop music is incredible
25:10 my favorite tarantino reference is the 5 n-words white-ass people say in pulp fiction
33:00 as mentioned before, unfamiliar w fall out boy. so this reveal had me saying 'jesus christ people' out loud
41:00 i had some friends explain welcome to the administration to me like 5 times and i never got it
42:00 more than anything this is the moment that fits in with mania-onwards fob as a band of cowards and is the seed that would develop that. also surprised to see no zizek sniff
43:02 wentz's liberal ass showing here makes sense given the above
also I asked my bf who lived thru the 00s and 10s emo craze and engaged w it as a kid about the Pete wentz and he found out that wentz dated a 15 year old when he was TWENTY THREE.
Yeesh. I appreciate all the time and effort you put into this video, man, but I gotta say, this feels like a complete misreading of... just everything about Fall Out Boy and the albums you've discussed. I think a lot of what you say is a valuable look at what these albums could mean from an industry perspective, but it seems like that's the only perspective you have on it - in plenty of interviews Pete and the band discuss the albums very earnestly (especially recently) and I just can't see the reading of the album as "WE HATE THE FANS!" even calling 'I Don't Care' a middle finger to the fans seems completely disingenuous. From their self-examination within fame and the industry and how that all operates in 'Arms Race' I just don't see how that then translates to "Our fans suck, everything building up to this sucks, we hate everything." even the nihilism present in Stardust seems to be shallowly read here. In more than one interview and in the text of the album itself (the "insufferable" Ethan Hawke track you mention) clearly outlines a desire to do many things and fill your life with many memorable moments BECAUSE it will al come to an end, and to that end it seems to me that the they're also saying, 'There are no regrets, because time is fleeting.'
Well, anyway, clearly I'm a big fan of the band so I'm going to go to bat for them and the album - what I think to be a great evolution. Again, I appreciate all the work that went into this video, but I think you may have overloaded it with information, dissected elements that just don't mean that much and misread major elements of the text. I mean, you say it yourself with the religious iconography -they're playing fast and loose with what it all means and what exactly it represents, why then is that not applied to most everything in the videos? It always seemed to me that the videos were more painting with broad strokes than having every single element be representative of something greater (the 'Arms Race' video comes to mind again.)
The more I think about it, the more I just can't agree with this interpretation - "Where di the party go? We're ending it on the phone. I'm not gonna go home alone..." why can't we read 'I'm not gonna go home alone' as 'the fans are with us, the audience is here with us no matter what, even when we "go home" they'll come with us. It just doesn't make sense to me - even to the degree that the band has come out multiple times and said they are not bitter about folie.
I don't know, I'm happy to see someone do such a deep dive of Fall Out Boy here on TH-cam, though I feel frustrated that the whole thing seems to have this twinge of bitterness for what is ultimately, in my mind, a rather earnest band who mostly like to ask big questions and offer up not too many answers to them.
Though I can't say I agree with most of what you discussed, I just want to say thanks for even touching on this at all - as a Fall Out Boy fan, seems like they're always on the outskirts of the larger conversation about mainstream music. (And for me, that's what some of the album is about - not so much a bitterness at fans, but a questioning of the systems in place around their band and their audience. And also, Occam's Razor, the album is also partly about heartbreak and frustration from a divorce.)
I think we may have different interpretations on a few things I said here, so let me break it down:
Regarding the band's press around the albums: this is where I go back to the 'saying things ironically is a cover for what you believe unironically', which I think is a pretty consistent reading of what Fall Out Boy was in the 2000s and 2010s, even to now and especially in their art. So they may have been tongue-in-cheek across 'This Ain't A Scene' or 'I Don't Care' or 'Save Rock & Roll' as a whole, playing fast and loose (and btw, they're not going to come out in a press junket and say they hate the fans or have less than positive opinions about what happened across LiveJournals and MySpace in the mid-to-late 2000s, that's PR 101)... but that doesn't match the delivery of the material OR the actual narrative arcs of the content, which especially in recent years tend to be WAY more direct. When you see consistent trends play out on a long enough timeline (and this is running about fifteen years and at least five albums), sometimes you have to call it for what it is which feels more likely and resonant, especially when you have a song like 'My Songs Know What You Did In The Dark' which is explicitly targeting that audience, and which mirrors a lot of the self-aggrandizing mythmaking across the album. And even then, that doesn't mean there isn't emotional complexity in the scene towards how they treat and frame the bad relationship (be it towards a partner or the fanbase at large)... but that doesn't make it NOT toxic. You might not want to see it like that - again, if you're a fan, it'll sting when I highlight how much your favourite band might hold you with some antipathy, hell as a fan myself I feel that too - but the pattern is consistent, even if the emotional nuance tends to be scattered.
And when you travel in so much irony, you get the benefit of plausible deniability whenever you do say some foul shit, and that tends to suffice for a lot of surface listeners - it's how trolls get away with saying the majority of shit, it's the 'we're not serious' argument, play fast and loose long enough and even if it undercuts how seriously some will take your earnestness, it'll get you fame and success. It's why I don't buy that it's questioning systems at all - the framing is too individualized, the band has deliberately embraced pop sounds that will work in those systems and isn't playing some 'we're working from inside to take them down' card - again, the final song is about 'saving rock & roll', a restorative self-justification, this is a band that nakedly trafficks in the systems you propose it critiques, which was VERY much the case for the next two albums that would follow.
And about Folie - the man may say they're not bitter about Folie a Deux... NOW. But between 2008-2013, I read the press junkets and fan forums where the band was active, it was not a good place for Fall Out Boy until folks came around, it felt very reminiscent of how initial Weezer fans and critics revolted against Pinkerton before coming around way later - that's enough to give someone a complex, and Wentz is not immune to that.
That's also one reason why 'So Much (For) Stardust' comes across as so phenomenally defeatist to me - a literal do-over of the timeline from Save Rock & Roll, try to restore some of the old flash, but at least to me it doesn't translate. There's none of the verve and flair of Folie, none of the optimism in delivery, and the 'affirmative nihilism' framing that you describe does not translate when the regrets feel so plainly obvious on 'Fake Out' and 'Flu Game' and the title track where the remorse at participating in any of this performance has felt so hollow deep down. They're left scrabbling for answers and have none, and while I can see an interpretation where Ethan Hawke's sampled monologue from Reality Bites has some pathos, I also remember that character in that dreadful movie being a horrible person who made garbage art. That album isn't a 'we hate everything' so much as 'we might hate ourselves' for reaching this point, which is the last thing I wanted to hear from Fall Out Boy because it's in a direct throughline from MANIA, where they were very obviously out of ideas.
And that's the reason I can't just take it as 'we're all playing fast and loose and ironic' - because if that's true, the emotional weight evaporates: none of it matters, and all that earnest conviction becomes a pisstake. I believe that Fall Out Boy has way stronger convictions than that, not just because of the delivery of their material which is the furthest thing from ironic - which I think you agree with - but also their roots in punk - sure, there's going to be jokes and references that haven't aged well (comedy and art are often the first to age and age badly), and they may have some unpleasant emotions directed at the audience / women (and you can't even really argue with that last one), but they feel like they come from a real place, that's what gives them power. I hear your interpretation and your reticence to hear that bitterness, sure... but with the historical context across multiple albums, the music videos, how the band has behaved with their creative direction, I think the evidence is pretty damn strong. #shrug
@@SpectrumPulse Well, again, I can completely understand your interpretation, but I just don’t think I can fully agree. And I don’t mean to say that none of it should be taken seriously or that the irony is itself a get-out-of-jail free card, more so that I - through my own observations of interviews and interpretation of the lyrics - just don’t feel that any /album/ as a whole (including promo material and music videos) can really be /too/ pointed, I’d that makes sense. It seems to me that there’s a nebulousness to how the songs (particularly the lyrics) come together. The videos and songs may not necessarily be a reflection of the same ideas or themes as the songs they’re for, etc, etc. now of course you can say this is also a get our jail free card, a variation on “Oh it’s not serious, don’t take it seriously.” And I suppose that’s a fair argument. I just sometimes take such pointed reading with a grain of salt- to paraphrase a quote from Akira Kurosawa - “if I could write a paragraph, I wouldn’t have made a film about it.” Effectively I think I stand in the camp of FOB - specifically Pete - being a band/someone who has a lot of thoughts about certain things that they(he) may never have the right words to articulate- full of conflicting feelings and ideas. For me that’s part of what makes the music and lyrics so relatable. Obviously on these particular albums (Save rock and roll and stardust) we disagree, and that’s okay.
Admittedly you’re a few years older than me and clearly were a fan from earlier than I was- so you were in the trenches of those live journal things, so there’s obviously some context I’m missing. But ultimately, I feel like there’s just more to it than “we hate the fans”/bitterness for how dokie was received.
I also understand that would be a bad PR move, but to be frank, they had no obligation to come back onto the scene. Why not just continue their own side projects if they’re so embittered? It just doesn’t track in my mind, but hey- if the interpretation is to be in completely bitter, cynical, bad faith, then I guess they gotta keep making money, right? *also shrug*
But I agree that you’re referring to things that I can’t necessarily say are wrong so much as I can say I believe there to be more to it than that. “More” being something that perhaps I can’t even explain. That may sound like a cop out, and (again) I’d say that’s maybe a fair assessment, but I’d also say that I don’t think the approach has ever been “This means one thing and nothing else.”
Anyway, thanks again for the discussion, it’s ultimately made me appreciate all of these albums so much more- because even if you’re correct that FOB themselves hate their fans and are resentful of the place they occupy in the music industry- I’m lucky that they continued to make music at all, let alone music that has affected and inspired me so greatly.
(Also I’m doing this response on mobile so sorry if I kinda jumped around a lot- I can’t really refer back to anything without it discarding everything I’ve written :/ )
@@Nightmaricvision "Effectively I think I stand in the camp of FOB - specifically Pete - being a band/someone who has a lot of thoughts about certain things that they(he) may never have the right words to articulate- full of conflicting feelings and ideas. For me that’s part of what makes the music and lyrics so relatable. Obviously on these particular albums (Save rock and roll and stardust) we disagree, and that’s okay." - here's the thing, I completely agree with this, especially when you do get those moments of poetic poignancy :D in fact, I'd argue that's one of the reasons why Folie is such a great record, because the scattered, oblique writing fits the themes of madness as well, especially with more nuggets of truth lurking beneath it all.
And sadly, I think with the side projects a lot of it comes down to cash, fame, and lack of traction, especially given how messy the reception was for 'Soul Punk' and Black Cards especially - it costs a lot of money to get a side venture going on your own. They didn't get the reception of a 'Hesitant Alien' by Gerard Way or when Green Day pivoted to Broadway - sure, for Andy and Joe they had plenty of side work that probably paid enough of the bills and was fulfilling, but for Pete and Patrick... it feels less so?
I do think that this is not a definitive interpretation of an album - again, it's why I was hedging my bets so often in the video AND how I've never pretended to be an 'album explainer' as for one vision above all others, and with Fall Out Boy's muddied approach, I don't think it would even work. What I think stands out the most is that when you DO muddy the waters so much, you run the major risk of unfortunate implications, and that's where I think Fall Out Boy's last four albums really hit awkward notes, at least for me.
So yeah, I think we're mostly on the same page here XD
@@SpectrumPulse Ah, okay- so we definitely are within the same thought process- though I think maybe I’m being more generous with my interpretations of the last few albums- but again, that difference in opinion I think is totally okay!
I was mostly being rhetorical with the “what about side projects?” As again, I know FOB /does/ make money for them. But to put a pin in my thoughts on that, I’d say Patrick seems pretty set by film/TV scoring (especially what I assume is a pretty good check from Marvel/Disney for the spidey TV show he does) and Pete, I mean, the guy could’ve written a memoir and made bank!
Anyway, thanks again for the discussion. I think perhaps the tone of the video itself put me off in that what you’ve outlined in the comment didn’t totally come through to me, but I can see it now with the further context of this comment!
Definitely enough on the same page that this was a good discussion! Haha, thanks, man. And though I didn’t necessarily vibe with the whole thing, you should be proud- any artistic work, (be it an album or a big hourlong video) takes a lot of finessing and a lot of courage to put out in the first place.
This is a really excellent video and I love how you are able to word this editorially, even if I, frankly, disagree with like, a solid 70% of your analysis. You're really great at what you do, dude 👍
From - a serious MANIA apologist, lol
Personally I love SMFS and when I went to see the show this year the band seemed happier than they have been in a long time and to me, that means a lot more than any experimentation would. Watching them play songs I dearly love from Folie and finally get their flowers for it was incredible. I'm planning on going to 2ourdust and looking forward to it immensely.
SMFS is phenomenal. It feels like a good melding of pre-hiatus and hiatus. They seem more happy than I’ve seen them in a long time (been a fan since 2004) and the fans are happy.
i honestly think overall this is one of their best albums because it’s diverse while still being somewhat cohesive and i’m attached to the music videos they made for it. a lot of their older work really runs together for me because it sounds really similar.
Just revisited it, it's actually way worse than I remember 🫠
That closing statement gave me chills. Your command of language and passion are excellent!
pete wentz is biracial dude
Kinda hate to admit this, but honestly I love art that hates the viewer
I have to say, having seen them on their current tour, they’ve definitely been doing a lot of fan service. We got 2 surprise songs, 27 and the live debut of You’re Crashing, But You’re No Wave. It was a really great show, they didn’t play anything from Mania. And the new songs sound great live, but Stardust just feels like a compromise between their commercial side and their old sound. I think Infinity On High and Folie a Deux captured a specific energy from the band that they probably won’t ever capture again because they won’t ever have the confidence to experiment that way again
Take a shot every time Folie à Deux (madness of two) is pronounced Folie à Dieu (madness of god) lol
Very interesting analysis! Really enjoyed this
this album was sorta my entry point for the band. I remember watching the Youngblood Chronicles on repeat for weeks, but in going back to it so many years later, I really did feel that underlying dissonance, but didn't really know why. soon after, you drop this and it suddenly all makes sense. i'll always have a soft spot for this album, even if it's like my 4th favorite from them, but i'm so glad you made this video to really speak on that thinly veiled resentment at the heart of it. it's sorta sad how the band's trajectory has been since, but hey, i'll always thank them for the memories, even if they weren't so great.
"And does anyone really wanna talk about Danger Days?"
Spectrum, is this a challenge of some kind? 👀
We should. I see Danger Days as one of those albums where My Chemical Romance became more aware of their influence on the youth and strives to make something energetic and positive...while having a bit of snark for certain parties.
One other thing: I would be curious why you singled out I Slept with Someone as especially misogynistic. I guess you could maybe interpret the song as a fantasy about killing his ex, but I think that's a pretty big stretch -- I've always took the 'cure for growing older' as a reference to Pete's then-recent suicide attempt, not a reference to killing anyone else. I actually think that's probably the best and most clear-headed song on From Under the Cork Tree -- across that album and Infinity on High, I think the end of the second verse is probably the only moment when the whole ironic critique of how people relate to emo music has any truth to it, pointing out that all the bitterness doesn't help the people being bitter. Idk, maybe it's just my teenaged instincts to defend a band I used to like, I would be curious what I'm missing.
I remember this album came out a few months before my mom died and I would just listen to it from front to back repeatedly every day for a year. Forever grateful to fob ❤
“I am an arms dealer/fitting you with weapons in the form of words” indeed.
I originaly wrote that I love srar. I left it at that. But while I will say I rebel against many of your implicatons about Save Rock and Roll with every fiber of my being. I have to say something. I think youre right. SRAR was a bittersweet album, separately bitter and sweet. But about stardust? I think it was good, it shows potential, they havent lost it, I think they could pull off a magnum opus. I have faith
Hey mark glad to see you do such a big project after being a fan of yours for 10 years now. Keep up the good work and love to see what’s to come
This is actually my third favorite Fall Out Boy album, just behind Take This to Your Grave and Infinity on High. “The Phoenix” is my favorite FoB song, and I think every song on the album is at least decent. It’s not perfect, none of their albums are, but it’s a lot of fun and very reflective of the state of the band at the time. Plus, after all the truly awful albums they’ve made since, I’d take the worst song on here over most of MANIA. any day. But I do love watching critics mercilessly tear apart my favorite albums, and it’s nice to see you making a different style of video, so I am excited for this!
How can you put this album higher than From Under the Corktree?
@@DudeMan-xs3db Simple, my friend. They make a list, and put Save Rock and Roll above From Under the Cork Tree.
@@DudeMan-xs3db Because they like it better than Cork Tree, simple as that.
This is my new favorite video you've ever done. This is such a great, thoughtful analysis about an album that I've always had complicated feelings toward but could never put into words.
I love FOB, but they've always felt they were fighting with everything around them from their audience to the music industry to their own personal relationships. SRaR marked a change in sound but more importantly it brought the meta narratives to the forefront. At times, it's an honestly difficult listen. Ironically this video has given me a new appreciation for this album. It hates you, but watching someone lash out in anger is fascinating.
I wouldn't complain if you did more video essays. I could listen to you tear my favorite album to shreds and I'd still be enthralled
40:10 bro all i want to do is talk about danger days by my chemical romance that album kicks ass. i get your point but i will also defend danger days to my death o7 great video so far
As someone who still listens to a lot of the rock music that defined my youth, including a lot of Fall Out Boy's stuff, I've always struggled a lot with this album.
On one hand, I love the sound of it - it's the one time when FOB's semi-ironic stabs at genre-blending bombast don't make them seem like complete dorks or posers - and there's a lot of those sharp, highly quotable lyrics the band is famous for, which is something I've always loved about them.
On the other hand, I definitely picked up on the antagonist subtext right away, when I heard "Where Did The Party Go" for the first time and realized pretty much instantly that the "party" in question is a metaphor for the 2000s pop punk/emo scene ... And even though I still love that song (there's some bitterness there, but it's not as confrontational and angry as the rest of the album, opting to go for a complex blend of wistful nostalgia, regret and relief instead), part of me curses the fact that it made me aware of the meta aspect of Save Rock And Roll, because I can't unhear it now, no matter how hard I try (and I do).
Call me self-absorbed or shallow or whatever, but I like music to be relatable. I have absolutely no use for songs that explore themes like fame because what the hell am I even supposed to do with that? Put it on when I'm tired of being hounded by paparazzi? Nod along sagely while I'm sitting in my tour bus, reflecting on how being on the road is affecting my family life? Angrily sing along to express how much I hate the way the record label is trying to stifle my creativity as an artist? Of course not. No amount of poignant lyricism or evocative musical arrangements will ever make me feel anything but "I guess that's kinda interesting" and "Yikes, that sucks for you", and those are not emotions I want to feel while listening to music. If I wanted that experience, I'd just wait for the next random stranger to vent their entire life's story at me in the middle of small talk.
That's not really the problem, though. If it were, I'd find it boring, but unremarkable. Lots of popular music is like that, right? Except that most of that type of music doesn't get angry at me for not finding it all that compelling. Or for the crime of ... I don't even know, listening to it wrong?
That's the worst thing about Save Rock And Roll imo. FOB are so angry at their own fans, but there's literally nothing we could have done differently that would have changed anything. Of course fanbases wax and wane over time, but many of us had stuck with the band through it all, way past our "emo phases", longing for a comeback. And Folie à Deux may not have been a huge commercial success, but it is a fan favorite record that still gets fiercely defended by a large portion of the fandom. What else did the band want from us? To solve their interpersonal drama? To keep musical trends from shifting towards different genres?
The whole thing brings to mind the narcissistic abuse I experienced growing up. If you've ever been through that ordeal, you''ll know EXACTLY what I'm talking about - the narcissist is angry and frustrated, so they decide to take it out on you. Not because you're actually responsible for what happened, but because you're the easiest target. So they come up with some excuse to tear you down. They set you up to fail. Hold you to impossible standards. Find some tiny little mistake to blow out of proportion.
It's super uncomfortable, and not in a challenging way. It's just thin-skinned, petty and mean-spirited.
once again, this Is why I never want to release any of the art I make.
Save Rock & Roll is my favorite FOB album but know that is not a popular opinion. It's the 1st that held my attention all the way through. I also really like Infinity & Cork Tree.
This video gives a completely new perspective on the album that never once occurred to me for the 10 years this has existed, and it feels like the missing piece I've been looking for all this time. Certain aspects of this record (and the next two) feeling off or just being completely different from everything the band had done until then. But this video really makes sense of all these aspects and I feel I understand this album way more than I ever expected to. Thanks a lot for this, Mark.
This also has me really curious as to what they were going for with American Beauty and Mania.
Cool video but how many times did you say the word obfuscation because it was a lot
Sick Jane Doe pfp
mania haters are weak
hell yeah brother
i stand by young and menace
I very much disagree that So Much (for) Stardust is FOB becoming a nostalgia act. As they've said themselves, it's them exploring where their earlier style on Folie would've taken them if they continued on that track rather than pivoted to pure Pop on Save Rock & Roll. It's playing a bit into nostalgia, yes, but they also went into it wanting to make it as opposed to forcing themselves. At least, that's how I've seen it.
Interesting takes, definitely opened my mind to some new avenues when thinking about this album. I hadn't exactly placed any importance on the Youngblood Chronicles, since FOB's music videos always seem really disconnected from their music. Your analysis is really good though, loved it, learned from it.
You know it's an earnest review of a Fall Out Boy album if you still aren't sure if you like it or not. Did it age well? I can only speak for myself, but as a lifelong fan of the band, it has a special place in the collection of newspaper clippings and red yarn that makes up my self. Thanks for making this video!
i would love to see a video where mark talks about what he likes about so much for stardust and what they could expand on to make a better record, honestly i expected a full length review for it.
Not sure if this would be fun for you or if it already exists on your channel, but one of the things you seem to have over a lot of critics is a solid understanding of label politics especially in Nashville but also more broadly. Do you think you would be interested in doing a general primer behind the basic elements of label politics, the commercial/political history of some noteworthy labels/imprints and genre scenes, and the biggest changes over the digital music era?
Just curious if that's something you would want to do or if it's on your channel and I missed it. Either way very interesting video, even as a person who's not super into FOB. Binged this and the Nick Cave video today, great watches.
commenting pre-essay to say I'm like 70% sure mark will contrast this album against encore by em which even if it was the opposite of a comeback album hated its audience about as much
More like he quoted Joe burden discussing Kamikaze but yes.
Ik im a bit late here but curious what singles could have potentially changed the reception/impact of Folie.
Wow such a great video! I've never been big on Fall Out Boy, but I've known they've always been a presence in pop culture. You had a lot of great points and I definitely agree that they need to save themselves! (Very good Maroon 5 parallel!)
If Mark ever made a video essay like this on an album I made I'd probably cry and stop making music
Cool video, really detailed analysis :)
While I disagree with a lot that was said in this video, I think the arguments were very well made and gave me a lot to think about.
I would love to hear a retrospective on panic at the disco from you - that band (can we even call it a band? A project?) has disappointed me far more than fall out boy ever has, but I think there’s a lot that can be learned from it now that it’s over.
Great work!
This video is fucking incredible… as a teen Emo kinda just getting my footing back into the 2000s stuff, this is an incredible dissection. (Even if I loved two songs you specifically called out in “Rat A Tat” and “I Don’t Care” and I really got into the new album but hey)
Very very good video. I always viewed SRAR as an angry breakup album and never connected the dots that a lot of these lyrics may be directed towards the fans and not a failed relationship… you’ll have to make a video in a similar fashion for So Much (For) Stardust because I didn’t realize how similar the commentary was between these two albums. The music video for Love From the Other Side does a good job outlining the message, but there’s a common theme of the ending of a legacy throughout the album. Especially with the title track, this album is a reflection on what they had and what they lost as once juggernauts in the rock genre. It very well could be a final goodbye album, but it feels more like a depressing homerun where they realize they’ll never be what they once were
I've been watchin u since at least 2015 & I gotta say this is ur best video maan, love this style of video from u, would love to see more like this from even tho I kno it would be difficult to pull off wit all ur other series & reviews but hell yea more retrospective review/video essays like this maan
I accidentally stumbled into this vid as I was search for FOB's commentary on SRNR, and while watching was kinda skeptic and wanted to leave and go get what I came here for. Happily I didn't, this gave me so much appreciation for the old song and finally got the explanation on why the FD album was so underrated(I was a very big fan of the album but found out to late). This was worth all of the watch time
You (Mark) have often said this album hates you (the audience.) I feel "Mania" is the record that hates the audience, a giant, "eff you" to older AND new fans, whereas ""Light Em Up" is just modernize FOB. that could, and did appeal to old AND new fans... As far as what they were trying to say to their audience, most listeners have no idea what their lyrics are about anyway, so any subtext falls on deaf ears.... "Save Rock And Roll felt like a commercial love letter. For me, it's also best of their "comeback albums" which is more important than any cultural conversation, which inevitably gets forgotten and/or made up in hindsight, anyway: the best in terms of lyrics and music....looking forward to watching this, and hearing your thoughts :)
This was an... *interesting* way to commemorate the album's 10th anniversary! 🤓➡️😅
This was very thought provoking and interesting and I’m gonna keep processing some of these takes. Although I don’t think there’s as much “coding” as presented in this video.
Hey, I just wanted to say great video. I adore Fall Out Boy and I thought your thoughts on them were really cool and have given me a lot to reflect on :) Save Rock and Roll is such a weird conundrum for me because I have to grapple with the fact that it feels like them killing everything from their past that I love (like you talk about), but also presenting songs that I can't live without, such as Alone Together, My Songs Know What You Did in the dark, miss missing you, and the title track, Save Rock and Roll. I didn't start out this comment with wanting to leave a huge paragraph or anything, but I appreciated how you mentioned Butch Walker's production on the album. I feel that the compression makes the album sound way less aggressive than it would with out it. Listening to it I hear heaviness and aggression in a way that they haven't previously expressed themselves, but it's masked in a sea of terrible production. It almost makes me sad to think about what these songs probably sounded like as demos, with them rehearsing them in the studio. I also wanted to say thank you for your discussion about misogyny. I know it's a really hard thing to talk about, but as someone who can identify a lot with the points you were making it meant a lot to hear. I guess lastly I just kind of wanted to comment on So Much For Star Dust and say, like I totally see the points you are making, and something that has been bumming me out lately is how artists seem to be kind of jumping on this whole nostalgic "rock" thing instead of pushing forward and making new art. I feel that in a sense, FOB did sadly kind of do this with the new album, but it also is once again full of songs I love, such Heaven, Iowa, So good right now, and ten years. At it's best, the album to me sounds like a take on early 2010s alt pop through a pop punk lens, and I love the sound, but I hope that in the future they release a new album that is just them not giving a fucking shit about anything, success, people listening to it, or whatever.
i personally disagree with almost all of this, but i do think it was well-crafted. btw, it also took me far too long to get the joke at 25:14
anyways, have a nice day
- your local MANIA lover who got into the band after Young And Menace tickled my ADHD braincell _just_ right
Love your videos, just a tip though, try to avoid having music playing through your speech.
When it gets copyrighted it leaves large sections glitching in and out of speech and makes it impossible to hear important sections of the video. When they don't copyright it, it is a great technique, but it runs the risk of losing large swaths of important diologue.
You cover a lot of stuff I don't care much about, but I have listened to all the longer form videos from this channel anyway cause the analysis is so fascinating
I personally really like this album but I can totally see why people don't like it.
26:36 the best song they’ve written in my opinion. not just because of the message behind the lyrics, but because of the lyrics themselves. deeply layered
Wow! This was an excellent video!! I appreciate the content warnings at the very beginning. I don't have much to add, but Joe Trohman has actually written a memoir of his life and career called 'None of This Rocks.' Haven't read it, but it seems like the kind of book that might provide further insight into 'Save Rock and Roll.'
Despite FOB being from around the same area as I am (Chicago suburbs), I guess I don't really have any strong feelings about Fall Out Boy in particular, but I still very much enjoyed watching this! Though, I would like to know why you have so much contempt for LCD Soundsystem. Clearly, it isn't the first time you've brought up their music, ha.
I always love when Mark does these video essays
I will always love Fall Out Boy, especially there 2000’s work. Heck, I will defend this and their 2015 album despite the flaws holding both back. But yeah, what I have listened from So Much for Stardust so far initially got me excited, but over time it soured on me fast. It is a shame that Fall Out Boy and Green Day, two of my favorite bands have struggled hard to recapture what made them so amazing in the first place. At least their best music still holds up amazingly nearly two decades later!
A very interesting analysis of an album I've listened to numerous times. Insights that I never would've gotten, as I never bothered to watch the Youngblood Chronicles music videos. I had always heard about how Folie a deux was a very rough era for them but I honestly never really saw SR&R as being a reflection of that era and the fan reaction to the album. Folie a deux is definitely my favourite FOB album. While I'm quite mixed on the pop-punk/rock stuff they were doing before that (a lot of good stuff there but also some really meh tracks on those albums too), I'm also mixed on what they did after their hiatus with SR&R, AB/AP & Mania. While all of these albums pre and post FAD had their highs and lows, FAD was sort of the perfect blend and while far from a perfect album, stands out as being their best to me
I must be one of the few people that actually LOVES Folie à Deux and think "I Don't Care" is one of the catchiest (if not really that complex) songs in their discography.
Now, Mania... Yeeesh...
Would love to see a follow up video where you delve more into the lyrics of save rock and roll and your analysis of them in regards to this theory. This theory definitely has me seeing the album in a different way and if it really is just a giant middle finger to the fans it honestly makes me appreciate it more as that is such a bold artistic statement (even as a fall out boy fan haha). I disagree a bit with the Stardust take, but certainly see how it is just a bit more safe and uninspired as maybe some would want. But I do generally enjoy the album and see it more as a safe landing after the tumultuous mania rollout and reception. Maybe they will grow and push more on a consecutive record, but also, after watching this video, maybe I’m giving them too much credit?
Great essay as always. Hopefully we get to see your deep dive on Eminem's Encore soon.
You should do more essay style videos like this. 👍🏼
when save rock and roll came out, I was a horny fourteen-year old with a major thing for guys covered in blood, so, uh, it's safe to say none of the context, subtext, or history you discuss here was front of mind for me. coming back to this album as an adult is ... rough. the misogyny, reactionary vibes, and general pissiness and posturing combined with the thin production do not paint a pretty picture. and I commend you for giving this album and this band a hard, fair, thoughtful look -- so many "serious" critics, it's sad to say, discount the things that teen girls love wholesale without bothering to go deeper. this was an entertaining, informative, and thought-provoking walk down memory lane!
wow this is like a more in depth version of rockeds regretting the past of this album.
This was the album that got me into Fall Out Boy 😂 I was in middle school at the time.
I really liked this album when it came out but I find it hard to relisten to now for a lot of the production reasons you listed.
this video is going to make me sad but it will be worth it
Little bit of Save Yourself by Aesop Rock in that closer?
The only Premiers I like are American Garage bands from the mid 60s. TH-cam premiers are just annoying. They pop up in your recommendations before you can watch them. What's the point? This will probably be a great video, because yours usually are. I'll be back with more thoughts later if I feel like it.
you got wrong who attempted suicide in the band. could've skipped that fact, honestly.
If you think this album hates you, you should listen to Hand of God, a song that got cut from From Under the Cork Tree. That album and especially Infinity on High are both full of completely inexplicable digs against their fanbase for the crime of... relating to their music, I guess. FOB was my life as a teenager, and I'd say that Folie a Deux is their only album that holds up (and even then, Patrick really carries the thing, a lot of Pete's lyrics would sound like pretentious nonsense if they weren't sold by such an outstanding performer), mainly because it's their only album where they aren't completely up their own asses.
Also, I just want to say that Pete himself is mixed race, his mother is Jamaican. So yeah, I don't really read the whole bit with 2 Chainz as racist. Yeah, it's setting up a contrast between rock and hip-hop that is not 100% true, but I always read that as FOB's statement that they were done with their old stuff and embracing a more hip-hop-driven sound, so it's not like 2 Chainz is a villain there.
...okay, take a few steps back - I'm not calling Fall Out Boy racist here. I'm saying that this band can get careless with coding and framing, especially in how they place a rapper LITERALLY BURNING their instruments and merch, and when placed in context of their interviews, that sort of subtext does not require much of a deep reading.
@@SpectrumPulse Yeah fair enough, I can see the coding being careless. I guess the only point was that even as a dumb 13-year old, what they were doing seemed pretty clear to me. Sorry if you feel like I'm twisting your words.
Oh boy… this is going to be a banger. Whats funny is that this is actually the first album i ever bought on vinyl- thankfully for cheap. After revisiting it last month when the new album came out (which was very flawed in its own right)… yeah. This thing aged BAD.
Easily their best album!!
I very much disagree. Maybe of the last 10 years, but def not compared to their pre-hiatus work
@@crustpunkjesuschrist
I would definitely put under the cork tree and infinity on high as as a close 2 and 4 respectfully in the catalog. I’ve just always felt like SRR is more concise and showcases a broader range of sounds.
this is a really good video, thank you.
I'm not a fair weather fan, I can find something to like about all of their albums
Very interesting entertaining video. I do like SRAR and SM(F)S a lot even
Still love the album this changes nothing
Seriously Mark read/play When They Cry. Seriously
I have no idea what you're talking about...?
@@SpectrumPulse Same thing I mentioned in the comments of your Push the Sky Away review. Just some media with a focus on ideas about art you seem to be captivated by. If you don't mind heavy use of anime tropes (employed largely as obfuscation but nevertheless)
@@SpectrumPulse Honestly not that relevant and I'm faintly embarrassed now lol. Sorry
not dieu, deux
I'm not sure how much this video speaks to me, as a Gen Z kid who got into Fall Out Boy in 2020; I love their [early] music completely divorced from the cultural zeitgeist of the time. And I listened to Save Rock and Roll, American Beauty, and MANIA dozens of times before I realized they sucked. But thank you for ruining Save Rock and Roll for me forever. -_-
You make some good points, and I think most of what you said is true, except the band definitely did not think as hard about this as you did.
I’m sure this video is great and I definitely agree that SR&R was written as a F off to the fans and everything but I stopped listening after you said Patrick was the one who had a suicide attempt in 2005. That was Pete and that incident is very, very, very well documented and discoverable by a simple google search. Unfortunately, anything you had to say lost all credibility for me after that. Edit to add: according to other commenters you imply that they’re racist??? Pete Wentz is biracial. And both him and Andy Hurley were in a band called Racetraitor that was anti-racism. Patrick Stump literally kicked out a member before their lineup was solidified because the man said something vaguely racist about Pete. The lack of basic research done on this video undermines literally ANYTHING else you state as it shows you could not put in the effort to uncover a whole story. 🤦♀️
So a few things here to acknowledge here - you are correct that I did misspeak about Stump compared to Wentz in 2005, although in fairness to myself I did find documented interviews where Stump was also talking about suicidal tendencies across the early 2000s, so a wire was crossed when filming this. My mistake there.
More to the point, I did bring up Racetraitor literally IN the video, and discussed the context around it, where it doesn't look there is evidence that Hurley or Wentz actually wrote lyrics for that band, or did the reading behind said lyrics. And before we go down the rabbit hole of late 90s hardcore drama and the acts that critiqued Racetraitor's often shallow approach to their politics - I have better things to do that relitigate scene drama from twenty-five years ago - even taking their involvement there at face value and with the acknowledgement of Wentz being biracial, it doesn't excuse the thematic coding of 'Save Rock & Roll' and the weird way in which they framed rap music, which was why I was tentative to bring it up at all in the essay... but it certainly is there. It wasn't even an implication that they were racist, moreso that they were careless around tropes and coding especially in the music videos - which I also said in the essay and which might as well have been the modus operandi for Fall Out Boy for decades.
And given I have a list of cited sources in the description, the research was done - just because you don't want to acknowledge it and would prefer to make points around minutia does not discredit my points, try again.
Fall Out Boy are a Legendary band and they also have a legitimate legacy. a band that has evolved incredibly. These words are not only the words of a fan, also the media and the industry. 🤘🤍👏
Bye
Their latest album is not too bad. I mean it's not like their first couple but it's a true return to their pop-punk roots. You just analyze things way too much in music and need to learn to relax and enjoy for what it is. The main reason why you do enjoy a lot of new releases and let down by them is because you're older and are more cynical of things than you were when you.
He's a critic. Analysis is literally his job
God forbid a critic who is known for deeply analyzing music deeply analyzes music.